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Title: Two Dyaloges (c. 1549)
Author: Erasmus, Desiderius, 1469-1536
Language: English
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[Transcriber's note: The original text has no page
numbers. Page breaks have been marked with double
lines || like this. Three apparent typographic errors
were corrected and are listed at the end of this
text. All other spelling and punctuation are as in
the original.]
* * * * *
* * * *
* * * * *
[C]Two dyaloges
wrytten in laten
by the famous clerke. D. Eras-
mus of Roterodame/ one called
Polyphemus or the gospeller/
the other dysposyng of thynges
and names/ translated
in to Englyshe by
Edmonde
Becke.
And prynted at Cantorbury
in saynt Paules paryshe
by Johñ Mychell.
[+]
* * * * *
The preface to the Reader.
Lucius Anneus Seneca amonge many other pratie
saienges (gentle reder) hathe this also, whiche in
my iudgement is as trew as it is wittie. Rogãdo
cogit qui rogat superior. And in effecte is thus
moch to say, yf a mãnes superior or his better
desyre any thige, he might aswell cõmãde it by
authoritie as ones to desyre it.
A gentleman a nere cosyn of myne, but moch nerer
in fryndshyp, eftesones dyd instant and moue me to
translate these two dyaloges folowynge, to whose
getlenes I am so moch obliged, indetted and
bounde, that he myght well haue cõmaunded me to
this and more paynes: to whome I do not onely owe
seruyce, but my selfe also. And in accõplysshynge
of his most honest request (partly by cause I
wolde not the moost inhumane fawte of Ingratitude
shuld wor||thely be imputed to me, & that I
might in this thynge also (accordynge to my
bounden dutie) gratifie my frende) I haue hassard
my selfe in these daungerous dayes, where many
are so capcyous, some prone and redy to malygne &
depraue, and fewe whose eares are not so
festidious, tendre, and redy to please, that in
very tryfles & thynges of small importaunce, yet
exacte dylygence and exquisite iudgement is loked
for and requyred, of them whiche at this present
wyll attempte to translate any boke be it that the
matter be neuer so base. But what diligence I have
enployed in the translaciõ hereof I referre it to
the iudgement of the lerned sort, whiche cõferynge
my translacion with the laten dyaloges, I dowte
not wyl condone and pardone my boldnesse, in that
that I chalenge the semblable lybertie whiche the
translatours of this tyme iustlie chalenge. For
some heretofore submytting them selfe to
seruytude, haue lytle ||respecte to the
obseruaciõ of the thyng which in translacyõ is of
all other most necessary and requisite, that is to
saye, to rendre the sence & the very meanyng of
the author, not so relygyouslie addicte to
translate worde for worde, for so the sence of the
author is oftentimes corrupted & depraued, and
neyther the grace of the one tonge nor yet of the
other is truely observed or aptlie expressed. The
lerned knoweth that euery tonge hathe his peculyer
proprietie, phrase, maner of locucion, enargies
and vehemêcie, which so aptlie in any other tõg
can not be expressed. Yf I shal perceyue this my
symple doinge to be thankefully taken, and in good
parte accepted, it shall encorage me hereafter to
attempte the translaciõ of some bokes dysposing of
matters bothe delectable, frutefull, & expedient
to be knowen, by the grace of God, who gyuynge me
quyetnes of mynde, lybertie, and abylytie, shall
not desyste to communicat the frute of my
||spare howers, to such as are not lerned in
the laten tonge: to whome I dedycat the fyrste
frutes of this my symple translacyon.
* * * * *
A declaracion of the names.
Poliphemus sygnifieth, valyant
or noble, and in an other sygnifi-
cacion, talcatyfe or clybbe of tong. The
name of a Gyant called Cyclops, ha-
uynge but one eye in his forhed, of a
huge stature and a myghtie personage.
And is aplyed here to sygnifie a great
freke or a lubber, as this Poliphemus
was, whiche beynge a man of warre or
a courtyer, had a newe testament in his
hande, and loked buselie for some
sentence or text of scrypture
and that Cannius his
companyõ espyed
and sayd to
hî as fo-
loweth.
* * * * *
[C]The parsons names are Cannius and Poliphemus.
Cannius. what hunt Polipheme for here? Poliphemus.
Aske ye what I hunt for here, and yet ye se me
haue neyther dogges, dart, Jauelyn, nor huntyng
staffe. Cannius. Paraduenture ye hunt after some
praty nymphe of the couert. Poliphemus. By my
trouth and well coniectured, be holde what a
goodly pursenet, or a hay I haue here in my hande.
Cannius. Benedicite, what a straunge syght is
this, me thinke I se Bachus in a lyons skin,
Poliphemus with a boke in his hande. This is a
dogge in a doblet, a sowe with a sadle, of all
that euer I se it is a non decet. Poliphe. I haue
not onely paynted and garnyshed my boke with
saffron, but also I haue lymmed it withe Sinople,
asaphetida, redleed, vermilõ, and byse. Can. It is
a warlyke boke, for it is furnished with knottes,
tassils ||plates, claspes, and brasen bullyons.
Poliphe. Take the boke in your hand and loke
within it. Canni. I se it wery well. Truly it
is a praty boke, but me thynkes ye haue not yet
trymmed it sufficiently for all your cost ye have
bestowed upon it. Poliphe. Why what lackes it?
Canni. Thou shuldest haue set thyne armes upon it.
Poliphemus. what armes I beseche the? Cãnius. Mary
the heed of Silenus, an olde iolthed drunkard
totynge out of a hoggeshed or a tunne, but in good
ernest, wherof dothe your boke dyspose or
intreate? dothe it teache the art and crafte to
drynke a duetaunt? Poli. Take hede in goddes name
what ye say lest ye bolt out a blasphemie before
ye be ware. Cãnius. why bydde ye me take hede what
I saye? is there any holy matter in the boke?
Poli. what mã it is the gospell boke, I trow there
is nothynge can be more holye. Cannius. God for
thy grace what hathe Poliphemus to do withe the
gospell? ||Poli. Nay why do ye not aske what a
chrysten man hathe to do with christe? Cannius.
I can not tell but me thynkes a rousty byll or a
halbard wold become such a great lubber or a
slouyn as thou arte a great deale better, for yf
it were my chaûce to mete such one and knewe
him not upon seeborde, and he loked so lyke a
knaue and a ruffyã as thou dost I wolde take hym
for a pirate or a rouer upon the see/ and if I met
such one in the wood for an arrante thefe, and a
man murderer. Poli. yea good syr but the gospell
teache vs this same lesson, that we shuld not
iudge any person by his loke or by his externall &
outwarde apparaunce. For lyke wyse as many tymes
vnder a graye freers coote a tyrannous mynde lyeth
secretly hyd, eue so a polled heed, a crispe or a
twyrled berde, a frowninge, a ferse, or a dogged
loke, a cappe, or a hat with an oystrich fether, a
soldyers cassocke, a payre of hoose all to cut and
manglyd, may co||uer an euangelycall mynde.
Cannius. why not, mary God forbyd elles, yea &
many tymes a symple shepe lyeth hyd in a wolfes
skynne, and yf a man maye credite and beleue the
fables of Aesope, an asse maye lye secretely
unknowen by cause he is in a lyons skynne.
Poliphe. Naye I knowe hym whiche bereth a shepe
vpon his heed, and a sore in his brest, to whome I
wold wysshe with al my hart that he had as whyte
and as fauorable frendes as he hathe blacke eyes.
And I wolde wisshe also that he were as well guylt
ouer and ouer as he hathe a colour mete to take
guyltynge. Canni. Yf ye take hym to were a shepe
vpon his heed, that weareth a cappe of woll, howe
greuously than art thou lodyn, or what an
excedynge heuy burdê bearest thou then I praye the
whiche bearest a hoole shepe and an ostryche to
vpon thy heed? But what saye ye to hî doth not
he more folyssly which beareth a byrd vpon his
heed, and an asse in his ||brest. Poliphemus.
There ye nypped & taunted me in dede. Cannius. But
I wolde saye this geere dyd wonderous wel yf this
gospel boke dyd so adourne the with vertue as thou
hast adourned lymmed, and gorgiously garnysshed it
with many gay goodly glystryng ornamentes. Mary
syr thou hast set it forth in his ryght colours in
dede, wolde to god it might so adourne the with
good cõdiciõs that thou myghtest ones lerne to be
an honest man. Poli. There shall be no defaute in
me, I tell you I wyll do my diligence. Can. Naye
there is no doute of that, there shall be no more
faute in you now I dare say then was wonte to be.
Poli. Yea but (youre tarte tauntes, and youre
churlysshe checkes, and raylynges set asyde) tell
me I pray the this one thynge, do you thus
disprayse, condempne, or fynde faute with them
whiche caryeth aboute with them the newe testament
or the gospel boke? Canni. No by my fayth do I not
good ||praty man. Poliphe. Call ye me but a
praty one and I am hygher then you by ye length
of a good asses heed. Can. I thynke not fully so
moche yf the asse stretch forth his eares, but go
to it skyllis no matter of that, let it passe, he
that bare Christ vpon his backe was called
Christofer, and thou whiche bearest the gospell
boke aboute with the shall for Poliphemus be
called the gospeller or the gospell bearer. Polip.
Do not you counte it an holy thynge to cary aboute
with a man the newe testament? Cãni. why no syr by
my trouth do I not, except thou graunte the very
asses to be holy to. Poli. How can an asse be
holy? Cannius. For one asse alone is able to beare
thre hundreth suche bokes, and I thynke suche a
great lubber as thou art were stronge inoughe to
beare as great a burden, and yf thou had a hansome
packesadle sette vpon thy backe. Poliphe. And yet
for all your iestynge it is not agaynst good
reason to saye ||that ye asse was holy which
bore christ. Cannius. I do not enuye you man for
this holynes for I had as lefe you had that
holynes as I, and yf it please you to take it I
wyll geue you an holy & a religious relyke of the
selfe same asse whiche christ rode vpon, and whan
ye haue it ye may kysse it lycke it and cull it as
ofte as ye lyst. Poli. Mary syr I thanke you, ye
can not gyue me a more thanckefull gyfte nor do me
a greatter pleasure, for that asse withouten any
tayle was made as holye as any asse could be by
the touchynge of christes body. Cannius. Undouted
they touched christes body also whiche stroke and
buffeted christ. Poliphe. yea but tell me this one
thynge I praye the in good ernest. Is it not a
great sygne of holynes in a man to cary aboute the
gospel boke or the newe testament? Cannius. It is
a token of holynes in dede if it be done without
hypocrysie, I meane if it be done without
dissimulacion/ and for ||that end, intent &
purpose, that it shuld be done for. Poliphe. What
the deuyl & a morten tellest thou a man of warre
of hypocrisie, away with hypocrisie to the monkes
and the freers. Cannius. Yea but bycause ye saye
so, tell me fyrste I praye you what ye call
hypocrisie. Po. When a man pretendis another thyng
outwardly then he meanis secretly in his mynde.
Cannius. But what dothe the bearynge aboute of the
newe testament sygnyfie. Dothe it not betoken that
thy lyfe shulde be conformable to the gospell
which thou carryest aboute with the. Poli.
I thynke well it dothe. Cannius. Wel then when thy
lyfe is not conformable to the boke, is not that
playne hypocrisie. Poliph. Tell me thê what you
call the trewe carienge of the gospell boke aboute
with a man. Cãni. Sõme men beare it aboute with
them in theyr hãdes (as the gray freers were wonte
to beare the rule of saynt Fraunces) and so the
porters of Londõ, Asses ||& horses may beare
it as well as they. And there be some other that
carry the gospel in theyr mouthes onlie, and such
haue no other talke but al of christ and his
gospell, and that is a very poynt of a pharysey.
And some other carrye it in theyr myndes. But in
myne opynion he beares the gospell boke as he
shuld do whiche bothe beares it in his hande,
cõmunes of it with his mouth whan occasyon of
edyfyenge of his neyghboure whan conuenyent
oportunytie is mynystred to him, and also beares
it in his mynde and thynkes vpon it withe his
harte. Poli. Yea thou art a mery felow, where
shall a man fynde suche blacke swãnes? Cannius. In
euery cathedrall church, where there be any
deacons, for they beare the gospel boke î theyr
hãde, they synge the gospell aloude, somtyme in a
lofte that the people may heare thê, althoughe
they do not vnderstand it, and theyr myndes are
vpõ it when they synge it. Polphe. And yet for all
your ||sayenge all suche deacons are no saynttes
that beare the gospell so in theyr myndes.
Cannius. But lest ye play the subtyle and
capcious sophystryar with me I wyll tell you this
one thynge before. No man can beare the gospell in
his mynde but he must nedes loue it from the
bothum of his harte, no man loueth it inwardly and
from the bothû of his harte but he must nedes
declare and expresse the gospell in his lyuinge,
outwarde maners, & behauour. Poli. I can not skyll
of youre subtyle reasonynges, ye are to fyne for
me. Can. Thê I wyll commune with you after a
grosser maner, and more playnly. yf thou dyddest
beare a tankard of good Reynyshe wyne vpon thy
shulders onelye, what other thynge were it to the
then a burden. Poliphe. It were none other thynge
truly, it is no great pleasure so beare wyne.
Cannius. What and yf thou dranke asmoche as thou
coudest well holde in thy mouthe, after the manner
of ||a gargarisme & spyt it out agayne. Po.
That wolde do me no good at all, but take me not
with suche a faute I trow, for the wyne is very
bad and if I do so. Canni. But what and yf thou
drynke thy skynne full as thou art wont to do, whê
thou comest where good wyne is. Poliphe. Mary
there is nothyng more godly or heuynly. Cannius.
It warmes you at the stomacke, it settes your body
in a heate, it makes you loke with a ruddy face,
and setteth your hart vpon a mery pynne. Poliphe.
That is suerly so as ye saye in dede. Canni. The
gospell is suche a lyke thynge of all this worlde,
for after that it hathe ones persed & entered in
the veynes of the mynd it altereth, transposeth,
and cleane changeth vpsodowne the whole state of
mã, and chaungeth hym cleane as it were into a
nother man. Polip. Ah ha, nowe I wot wherabout ye
be, belyke ye thîke that I lyue not accordynge to
the gospell or as a good gospeller shulde do.
||Cannius. There is no man can dyssolue this
questiõ better then thy selfe. Poli. Call ye it
dissoluynge? Naye and yf a thynge come to
dyssoluynge gyue me a good sharpe axe in my hande
and I trow I shall dyssolue it well inoughe.
Canni. What woldest thou do, I praye the, and yf a
man shulde say to thy teth thou lyest falsely, or
elles call the by thy ryght name knaue in
englysshe. Poli. What wolde I do quod he, that is
a question in dede, mary he shulde feele the
wayghte of a payre of churlyshe fystes I warrant
the. Canni. And what and yf a man gaue you a good
cuffe vpon the eare that shulde waye a pounde?
Poliphe. It were a well geuen blowe that wolde
aduauntage hym. xx. by my trouthe and he escaped
so he myght say he rose vpon his ryght syde, but
it were maruayle & I cut not of his head harde by
his shulders. Canni. Yea but good felowe thy
gospell boke teacheth the to geue gentle answers,
and fayre wordes ||agayne for fowle, and to
hym that geueth the a blowe vpon the ryght cheke
to holde forth the lyfte. Poliphe. I do remembre I
haue red suche a thinge in my boke, but ye must
pardone me for I had quyte forgotten it. Can. Well
go to, what saye ye to prayer I suppose ye praye
very ofte. Poli. That is euyn as very a touche of
a pharesey as any can be. Cannius. I graunt it is
no lesse thê a poynte of a pharesey to praye longe
and faynedly vnder a colour or pretêce of holynes,
that is to saye when a man prayeth not frõ the
bothum of his hart but with the lyppes only and
from the tethe outward, and that in opyn places
where great resort of people is, bycause they wold
be sene. But thy gospel boke teacheth the to praye
contynually, but so that thy prayer come from the
bothu of the hart. Poli. Yea but yet for all my
sayenge I praye sumtyme. Can. When I beseche the
when ye art a slepe? Poli. When it cometh in to
my mynde, ones ||or twyse may chaunce in a weke.
Can. what prayer sayst thou? Poliphe. The lordes
prayer, the Pater noster. Canni. Howe many tymes
ouer? Poli. Onis, & I trowe it is often inoughe,
for the gospell forbyddeth often repetynge of
one thynge. Canni. Can ye saye your pater noster
through to an ende & haue youre mynde runnynge
vpon nothynge elles in all that whyle? Poli.
By my trouthe and ye wyll beleue me I neuer yet
assayed nor proued whether I coulde do it or no.
But is it not sufficient to saye it with my
mouthe? Can. I can not tell whether it be or
no. But I am sure god here vs not excepte we praye
from the bothum of our harte. But tell me another
thyng I wyll aske the. Doest thou not fast very
often? Poli. No neuer in all my lyfe tyme and yf
it were not for lacke of meate. Can. And yet thy
boke alowes and commendes hyghly bothe fastynge
and prayer. Polip. So coulde I alowe them but that
my belly can ||not well affare nor a way with
fastyng. Cannius. Yea but Paule sayth they are not
the seruauntes of Iesus Christe whiche serue theyr
belly & make it theyr god. Do you eate fleshe
euery day? Po. No neuer when I haue none to eate,
but I neuer refuse it when it is set before me,
and I neuer aske question not for cõscience but
for my belly sake. Can. Yea but these stronge
sturdy sydes of suche a chuffe and a lobbynge
lobye as thou arte wolde be fed well inoughe with
haye and barke of trees. Poliphe. Yea but chryste
sayd, that which entereth in at the mouthe
defyleth not the man. Canni. That is to be
vnderstand thus yf it be measurably taken, and
without the offendinge of our christian brother.
But Paule the disciple of chryst had rather
peryshe & sterue with hunger then onys to offende
his weyke brothren with his eatynge, and he
exhorteth vs to followe his example that in all
thynges we maye please all men. Poli. What tel
||ye me of Paule, Paule is Paule and I am I.
Cannius. Do you gladly helpe to releue the poore
and the indygent with your goodes? Poli. Howe can
I helpe them whiche haue nothynge to gyue them,
and scant inoughe for my selfe. Cannius. ye myght
spare somthynge to helpe thê with yf thou woldest
playe the good husband in lyuynge more warely, in
moderatynge thy superfluous expenses, and in
fallynge to thy worke lustely. Poliphemus. Nay
then I were a fole in dede, a penyworth of ease is
euer worth a peny, and nowe I haue found so moch
pleasure in ease that I can not fall to no labour.
Canni. Do you kepe the commaundementes of god?
Polip. Nowe ye appose me, kepe the cõmaundementes
quod he, that is a payne in dede. Cannius. Art
thou sory for thy synnes and thyne offences, doest
thou ernestly repent the for thê. Poliphemus.
Christ hath payed the raunsome of synne and
satisfied for it alredy. Cannius. Howe ||prouest
thou then that thou louest the gospell and
fauoris the word of god as thou bearest men in
hande thou doest. Poliphemus. I wyll tell you that
by & by, and I dare saye you wyl confesse no
lesse your selfe then that I am an ernest
fauorer of the worde then I haue told you ye
tale. There was a certayne gray frere of the
order of saynt Fraunces with vs whiche neuer
ceased to bable and rayle agaynste the newe
testament of Erasmus, I chaunsed to talke with the
gêtylman pryuatly where no man was present but he
and I, and after I had communed awhyle with hym I
caught my frere by the polled pate with my left
hande and with my right hãde I drew out my daggar
and I pomelled the knaue frere welfauardly aboute
his skonce that I made his face as swollen and as
puffed as a puddynge. Cannius. what a tale is
this that thou tellest me. Poliphemus. How say you
is not this a good and a sufficient proue that I
fa||uer the gospell. I gaue hym absolucion afore
he departed out of my handes with this newe
testament thryse layde vpon his pate as harde as I
myght dryue yt I made thre bunches in his heed
as bygge as thre egges in the name of the father,
the sone, & the holy goost. Can. Now by my trouth
this was well done & lyke a ryght gospeller of
these dayes. Truly this is as they saye to
dyffende the gospell with the gospell. Poliphe.
I met another graye frere of the same curryshe
couent, that knaue neuer had done in raylynge
agaynst Erasmus, so sone as I had espyed hym I was
styrred and moued with the brenninge zele of the
gospell that in thretenyng of him I made hym knele
downe vpon his knees and crye Erasmus mercie and
desyred me to forgyue hym, I may saye to you it
was hyghe tyme for hym to fall downe vpon his
marybones, and yf he had not done it by and by I
had my hal||barde vp redy to haue gyuen hym
betwyxt the necke and the heade, I loked as grymme
as modie Mars when he is in furyous fume, it is
trewe that I tell you, for there was inoughe sawe
the frere and me yf I wolde make a lye. Cannius.
I maruayle the frere was not out of his wyt. But
to retourne to oure purpose agayne, dost thou lyue
chastly? Poliphemus. Peraduenture I maye do here
after when I am more stryken in age. But shall I
confesse the trouthe to the? Canni. I am no preest
man, therfore yf thou wylt be shryuen thou must
seke a preest to whome thou maye be lawfully
confessed. Poliphe. I am wont styl to cõfesse my
selfe to god, but I wyl confesse thus moche to the
at this tyme I am not yet become a perfyte
gospeller or an euangelical man, for I am but yet
as it were one of ye cõmune people, ye knowe wel
perde we gospellers haue iiii. gospels wrytten by
the .iiii. euange||lystes, & suche gospellers
as I am hunt busely, and chefely for .iiii.
thynges that we may haue. Unde. to prouyde dayntie
fare for the bellie, that nothynge be lackynge to
that parte of the body whiche nature hath placed
vnder the belly, ye wote what I meane, and to
obtayne and procure suche liuinge that we may lyue
welthely and at pleasure without carke & care. And
fynally that we maye do what we lyst without
checke or controlment, yf we gospellars lacke none
of all these thynges we crye and synge for ioye,
amonge our ful cuppes Io Io we tryumphe and are
wonderfull frolycke, we synge and make as mery as
cup and can, and saye the gospell is a lyue agayne
Chryst rayneth. Cannius. This is a lyfe for an
Epycure or a god belly and for no euangelicall
persone that professeth the gospell. Poli. I denye
not but that it is so as ye saye, but ye knowe
well that god is omnipotent and can do al thynges,
he can turne vs ||whê his wyll is sodenly in
to other maner of men. Cannius. So can he
transforme you in to hogges and swyne, the whiche
maye soner be done I iudge thê to chaunge you into
good men for ye are halfe swynyshe & hoggyshe
alredy, your lyuynge is so beastlie. Poliphe.
Holde thy peas mã wolde to god there were no men
that dyd more hurt in the world then swyne,
bullockes, asses, and camelles. A mã may se many
men now adayes more crueller then lyons, more
rauenynge thê wolues, more lecherous then sparous,
and that byte worse then mad dogges, more noysom
thê snakes, vepers and adders. Cannius. But nowe
good Polipheme remembre and loke vpon thy selfe
for it is hyghe tyme for the to laye a syde thy
beastly lyuynge, and to be tourned from a brute
and a sauage beast in to a man. Poliphemus. I
thanke you good neyghbour Cannius for by saynt
Mary I thynke your counsayle is good/for the
prophetes of this ||tyme sayth the worlde is
almost at an end, and we shall haue domes daye
(as they call it) shortely. Cannius. We haue
therfore more nede to prepare our selues in a
redines agaynst that day, and that with as moche
spede as maye be possible. Poliphemus. as for my
part I loke and wayte styll euery day for the
myghty hande and power of christ. Cannius. Take
hede therfore that thou, when christ shall laye
his myghty hande vpon the be as tendre as waxe,
that accordynge to his eternall wyll he maye
frayme & fashyon the with his hande. But wherby I
praye the dothe these prophetes coniecture &
gather that the worlde is almost at an ende.
Poliphe. Bycause men (they saye) do the selfe same
thinge nowe adayes that they dyd, and were wont to
do which were lyuynge in the worlde a lytle whyle
before the deluge or Noyes floode. They make
solempne feastes, they banket, they quaffe, they
booll, they bybbe, they ryot men mary, ||wome
are maryed, they go a catterwallynge and
horehuntinge, they bye, they sell, they lend to
vserie, and borowe vpon vserie, they builde, kîges
keepe warre one agaynst another, preestes studie
howe they maye get many benefyces and promociõs to
make them selfe riche and increase theyr worldly
substaunce, the diuynes make insolible sillogismus
and vnperfyte argumêtes, they gather conclusyons,
monkes and freers rûne, at rouers ouer all the
world, the comyn people are in a mase or a hurle
burle redy to make insurrections, and to conclude
breuelie there lackes no euyll miserie nor
myschefe, neyther hõger, thyrst fellonie,
robberie, warre, pestilence, sediciõ, derth, and
great scarsytie and lacke of all good thynges. And
howe say you do not all these thynges argue and
sufficientlie proue that the worlde is almost at
an ende? Cannius. Yea but tell me I praye the of
all thes hoole hepe of euyls and miseries whiche
greueth the ||moste? Poliphemus. Whiche
thynkes thou, tell me thy fansie and coniecture?
Cannius. That the Deuyll (god saue vs) maye daunce
in thy purse for euer a crosse that thou hast to
kepe hî for the. Poliphe. I pray god I dye and yf
thou haue not hyt the nayle vpon the head. Now as
chaunceth I come newly from a knotte of good
companye where we haue dronke harde euery man for
his parte, & I am not behynde with myne, and
therfore my wytte is not halfe so freshe as it
wyll be, I wyll dyspute of the gospell with the
whan I am sobre. Canni. When shal I se the sobre?
Poli. When I shall be sobre. Cannius. Whê wyll
that be? Poliph. When thou shalt se me, in the
meane season god be with you gentle Cannius and
well mot you do. Cannius. And I wyshe to you a
gayne for my parte that thou ware in dede as
valiaunt or pusaunt a felowe as thy name soundeth.
Poliphe. And bycause ye shall lose nothynge at my
||hande with wyshynge I pray god that Cannius
maye neuer lacke a good can or a stoope of wine or
bere, wherof he had his name.
F I N I S
* * * * *
[C]The dialoge of thynges
and names.
A declaracion of the names.
Beatus, is he whiche hathe abun
dance of al thinges that is good,
and is parfyte in all thynges commen-
dable or prayseworthy or to be desyred
of a good man. Somtyme it is ta-
ken for fortunate, ryche, or
noble. Bonifacius, fayre,
full of fauor or well
fauored.
[+]
* * * * *
[C]The parsons names are Beatus and Bonifacius.
_Beatus._ God saue you mayster Boniface.
_Bonifacius._ God saue you & god saue you agayne
gêtle _Beatus._ But I wold god bothe we were such,
and so in very dede as we be called by name, that
is to say thou riche & I fayre. _Beatus._ Why do
you thynke it nothynge worth at al to haue a goodly
glorious name. _Bonifacius._ Truely me thynke it is
of no valure or lytle good worthe, onles a man
haue the thynge itselfe whiche is sygnified by the
name. _Beatus._ Yea you maye well thynke your
pleasure, but I am assured that the most part of
all mortall men be of another mynde. _Bonifa._ It
may wel be I do not denye that they are mortal,
but suerly I do not byleue that they are me, which
are so beastly mynded. _Bea._ Yes good syr and they
be men to laye ||your lyfe, onlesse ye thynke
camels and asses do walke about vnder the fygure
and forme of men. _Boni._ Mary I can soner beleue
that then that they be men whiche esteme and passe
more vpon the name, then the thynge. _Bea._
I graunte in certayne kyndes of thinges moost men
had rather haue the thynge then the name, but in
many thynges it is otherwyse and cleane cõtrary.
_Bo._ I can not well tell what ye meane by that.
_Bea._ And yet the example of this matter is
apparant or sufficiently declared in vs two. Thou
arte called Bonifacius and thou hast in dede the
thynge wherby thou bearest thy name. Yet if there
were no other remedy but eyther thou must lacke
the one or the other, whether had you rather haue
a fowle and deformed face or elles for Boniface be
called Maleface or horner? _Boni._ Beleue me I had
rather be called fowle Thersites then haue a
monstrous or a deformyed face, whether I haue a
good face or no ||I can not tell. _Bea._ And
euen so had I for yf I were ryche and there were
no remedy but that I must eyther forgoo my
rychesse, or my name I had rather be called Irus
whiche was a poore beggers name then lacke my
ryches. _Boni._ I agree to you for asmoch as ye
speake the trouth, and as you thynke. _Bea._ Iudge
all them to be of the same mynde that I am of
whiche are indued with helthe or other commodities
and qualities appartaynynge to the body. _Boni._
That is very trewe. _Bea._ Yea but I praye the
cõsyder and marke howe many men we se whiche had
rather haue the name of a lerned and a holy man,
then to be well lerned, vertuous, & holy in dede.
_Boni._ I knowe a good sorte of suche men for my
part. _Bea._ Tell me thy fãtasie I pray the do not
suche men passe more vpon the name then the
thinge? _Boni._ Methynke thy do. _Bea._ Yf we had a
logician here whiche could well and clarkelie
defyne what were a kynge, what a bysshoppe,
||what a magistrate, what a philosopher is,
paduêture we shuld find som amõg these iolly
felowes whiche had rather haue the name then the
thynge. _Boni._ Surely & so thynke I. Yf he be a
kinge whiche by lawe and equyte regardes more the
commoditie of his people then his owne lucre/yf he
be a bisshop which alwayes is careful for the
lordes flocke cõmytted to his pastorall charge/yf
he be a magistrate which frankelie and of good
wyll dothe make prouysyon, and dothe all thinge
for the comyn welthes sake/and yf he be a
phylosopher whiche passynge not vpon the goodes of
this worlde, only geueth hym selfe to attayn to a
good mynde, and to leade a vertuous lyfe. _Bea._
Lo thus ye may perseyue what a nombre of semblable
exãples ye may collecte & gether. _Boni._ Undouted
a great sorte. _Bea._ But I pray the tel me wyll
you saye that all these are no men. _Boni._ Nay I
feare rather lest in so sayenge it shulde cost vs
our lyues, and ||so myght we our selues shortelye
be no men. _Bea._ Yf man be a resonable creature,
howe ferre dyffers this from all good reason, that
in cõmodities apertayning to the body (for so
they deserue rather to be called then goodnes) and
in outwarde gyftes whiche dame fortune geues and
takes awaye at her pleasure, we had rather haue
the thynge then the name, and in the true and only
goodnes of the mynd we passe more vpon the name
then the thynge. _Boni._ So god helpe me it is a
corrupte and a preposterours iudgement, yf a man
marke and consyder it wel. _Bea._ The selfe same
reason is in contrarie thinges. _Boni._ I wolde
gladly knowe what ye meane by that. _Bea._ We maye
iudge lykewyse the same of the names of thynges to
be eschued, and incommodites which was spoken of
thynges to be diffyred and cõmodites. _Boni._ Nowe
I haue considered the thynges well, it apereth to
be euen so as ye saye in dede. __Bea.__ It
shulde be ||more feared of a good prynce to be
a tyraunt in dede then to haue the name of a
tyraunt. And yf an euyll bysshop be a thefe and a
robber, then we shulde not so greatly abhorre and
hate the name as the thynge. _Boni._ Eyther so it
is or so it shuld be. _Bea._ Nowe gather you of the
rest as I haue done of the prynce & the bysshop.
_Boni._ Me thynkes I vnderstande this gere
wonderouse well. _Bea._ Do not all men hate the
name of a fole or to be called a moome, a sotte,
or an asse? _Boni._ Yeas as moche as they do any
one thynge. _Bea._ And how saye you were not he a
starke fole that wold fishe with a goldê bayte,
that wolde preferre or esteme glasse better then
precious stones, or whiche loues his horse or
dogges better then his wyfe and his chyldrê?
_Boni._ He were as wyse as waltoms calfe, or
madder then iacke of Redyng. _Bea._ And be not
they as wyse whiche not assygned, chosen, nor yet
ones appoynted by the magistrates, but vpon ||theyr
owne heed aduenture to runne to the warres for
hoope of a lytle gayne, ieoperdynge theyr bodyes
and daungerynge theyr soules? Or howe wyse be
they which busie thê selfe to get, gleyne, and
reepe to gyther, goodes and ryches when they haue
a mynde destitute and lackyng all goodness? Are
not they also euen as wyse that go gorgyously
apparylled, and buyldes goodly sumptuous houses,
when theyr myndes are not regarded but neglect
fylthye and with all kynde of vyce fowle
corrupted? And how wyse are they whiche are
carefull diligent and busie, about the helthe of
theyr body neglectynge and not myndynge at all
theyr soule, in daunger of so many deedly synnes?
And fynally to conclude howe wyse be they whiche
for a lytle shorte transytorye pleasure of this
lyfe deserue euerlastynge tormentes and
punyshementes? _Boni._ Euen reason forseth me to
graunt that they are more then frãtyke and
folyshe. _Bea._ Yea ||but althoughe all the
whole worlde be full of suche fooles, a man can
scaselye fynde one whiche can abyde the name of a
foole, and yet they deserue to be called so for
asmoche as they hate not the thynge. _Boni._ Suerly
it is euen so as ye seye. _Bea._ Ye knowe also howe
the names of a lyar and a thefe are abhorred and
hated of all men. _Boni._ They are spyteful and
odious names, and abhorred of all men, and not
withe out good cause why. _Bea._ I graunte that,
but althoughe to commyt adulterie be a more wycked
synne then thefte yet for al that some men reioyse
and shewe them selfe glad of that name, whiche
wolde be redy by and by to drawe theyr swerdes and
fyghte withe a man that wolde or durst call them
theues. _Boni._ It is true there are many wolde
take it euyll as you saye in dede. _Bea._ And nowe
it is commyn to that poynt that thoughe there are
many vnthryftes and spêdals whiche consume theyr
substaunce at the ||wyne and vpon harlottes,
and yet so wyllynge to continewe openly that all
the worlde wonders at them, yet they wyll be
offended and take peper in the noose yf a man
shulde call them ruffyans or baudy knaues. _Boni._
Suche fellowes thynke they deserue prayse for the
thynge, and yet for all that they can not abyde
the name dewe to the thinge whiche they deserue.
_Bea._ There is scarslye any name amonges vs more
intollerable or worse can be abydden then to be
called a lyar or a lyeng fellowe. _Boni._ I haue
knowen some or this whiche haue kylled men for
suche a spytefull worde as that is. _Bea._ Yea yea
but wolde god suche hasty fellowes dyd as well
abhorre the thinge and hate lienge as well as to
be called lyers, was it neuer thy chaunce to be
dysceyued of any man whiche borowinge mony of the
appoyntynge the a certayne daye to repaye the sayd
money and so performyd not his appoyntment nor
kept his day? ||_Boni._ Yeas many tymes (god
knoweth) and yet hath he sworne many a greuous
othe and that not one tyme but many tymes. _Bea._
Peraduenture he wolde haue ben so honest as to
haue payed it and yf he had had wherwith. _Boni._
Naye that is not so for he was able inoughe, but
as he thought it better neuer to paye his dettes.
_Bea._ And what call you this in englyshe, is it
not playne lyenge? _Boni._ Yes as playne as
Dunstable way, there can not be a lowder lye then
this is. _Bea._ Durste you be so bolde to pulle
one of these good detters of yours by the sleue and
saye thus to hym, why hast thou dysceyued me so
many tymes and broken promyse with me, or to talke
to hym in playne englyshe, why doest thou make me
so many lyes? _Boni._ Why no syr by my trouthe
durst I not, excepte I were mynded before to chaûge
halfe a dosen drye blowes with hym. _Bea._ Dothe
not masons Brekelayers, Carpenters, Smy||thes,
Goldsmithes, Taylours, disceyue and disapoynt vs
after the lyke maner daylye promysynge to do youre
worke suche a daye and suche a daye without any
fayle, or further delaye, and yet for all that
they parforme not theyr promesse althoughe it
stande the neuer somoche vpon hande, or that thou
shuldest take neuer so moche profyte by it. _Boni._
This is a wonderous and strange vnshamefast
knauerye of all that euer I hard of. But and ye
speake of breakers of promyse then ye maye reken
amongest them lawyers and atturneys at the lawe,
which wyl not stycke to promyse or beare you in
hande that they wyll be diligent and ernest in the
furtheraûce and spedie expedicion of your sute.
_Bea._ Reken quod he, naye ye maye reken fyve
hundreth mennes names besyde these of sundrye
faculties and occupacions whiche wyll promyse more
by an ynch of a candle then they wyll performe by
a whole pounde. _Boni._ Why ||and ye call this
lyenge all the worlde is full of suche lyenge.
_Bea._ Ye se also lykewyse that no man can abyde to
be called thefe, and yet all men do not abhorre
the thynge so greatly. _Boni._ I wolde gladly haue
you to declare your mynde in this more playnlye &
at large. _Bea._ What difference is there betwene
hym whiche stealeth thy money forthe of thy cofer,
and hym whiche forsweareth and falsely denyeth
that whiche thou cõmytted to his custodie to be
reserued and safely kept for thy vse only, or to
suche tyme as thou arte mynded to call for it
agayne. _Boni._ There is as they say neyther
barrell better hearing, but that in my iudgement
he is the falser knaue of the twayne whiche robbes
a man that puttes his confidence and trust in hym.
_Bea._ yea but howe fewe men are there nowe adayes
lyuynge whiche are contente to restore agayne that
whiche they were put in truste to kepe, or yf they
deluer it agayne it is ||so dymynysshed,
gelded, nypped, and pynched, that it is not
delyuered whollye, but some thinge cleues in theyr
fyngers, that the prouerbe may haue place where
the horse walloweth there lyeth some heares.
_Boni._ I thynke but a fewe that dothe otherwyse.
_Bea._ And yet for all that there is none of al
these that cã abyde it ones to be called thefe,
and yet forsothe they hate not the thing so
greatly. _Boni._ That is as trewe as the gospell.
_Bea._ Consyder me nowe and marke I beseche the
howe the goodes of orphanes, pupylls, wardes, and
fatherlesse chyldren be cõmunely ordered and vsed,
how wylles and testamentes be executed and
performed, how legacyes and bequethes be communelye
payde, Naye howe moche cleueth and hangeth fast in
the fyngers of the executors or with them that
mynyster and intermedle with the goodes of the
testatours. _Boni._ Many tymes they retayne and
kepe in theyr handes all togy||ther. _Bea._ Yea
they loue to playe the thefe well inoughe, but they
loue nothynge worse then to here of it. _Boni._
That is very trewe. _Bea._ Howe lytle dyffers he
from a thefe whiche boroweth money of one and other
and so runneth in dette, with this intent and
purpose that yf he maye escape so or fynde suche a
crafty colour or a subtyle shyft, he intendeth
neuer to paye that he oweth. _Boni._ Paraduenture
he maye be called warer or more craftier thê a
thefe is in dede but no poynt better, for it is
hard chosyng of a better where there is neuer a
good of them bothe. _Bea._ yea but althoughe there
be in euery place a great nombre of such
makeshyftes and slypper marchauntes yet the
starkest knaue of thê all can not abyde to be
called thefe. _Boni._ God onely knoweth euery mãnes
hart and mynd, and therfore they are called of vs
men that are runne in dette or fer behynde the
hande, but not theues for that soun||deth vnswetely
and lyke a playne song note. _Bea._ What skyllys it
howe they be called amõge men yf they be theues
afore god. And where you say that god onely knoweth
euery mannes hart and mynde, euen so euery man
knoweth his owne mynde, whether in his wordes &
doynges he entende fraude, couyn, dysceyte, and
thefte or no. But what say ye by hym whiche when he
oweth more then he is worthe, wyll not stycke to
lashe prodygallye and set the cocke vpon the hoope,
and yet yf he haue any money at all lefte to spende
that a waye vnthryftely, and when he hathe played
the parte of a knauyshe spendall in one cytie
deludinge and disceyuyng his creditours, ronnes
out of this countre and getteth hym to some other
good towne, and there sekynge for straûgers and
newe acquayntaûce whom he may lykewyse begyle, yea
and playeth many suche lyke partes and shameful
shiftes. I praye the tell me dothe not suche a
||greke declare euydentlye by his crafty
dealynge and false demeanour, what mynde is he of?
_Boni._ yes suerly as euydentlye as can be
possible. But yet suche felowes are wonte to
colour and cloke theyr doynges vnder a craftie
pretence. _Bea._ With what I beseche the? _Boni._
They saye to owe moche and to dyuers persones is
communely vsed of great men, yea and of kynges
also as well as of them, and therfore they that
intende to be of that disposycyon wyll beare out
to the harde hedge the porte of a gentylman and
soo they wyll be taken and estemed for gentilmen
of the commune people. _Bea._ A gentylman and why
or to what entent and purpose a gentylman? _Boni._
It is a straunge thynge to be spoken howe moche
they thynke it is mete for a gentylman or a
horseman to take vpon hym. _Bea._ By what equytie,
authoritie, or lawes. _Boni._ By none other but by
the selfe same lawes that the Admiralles of the
||sees chalenge a proprietie in all suche thynges
as are cast vpon the shoore by wracke, althoughe
the ryghte owner come forthe and chalenge his owne
goodes. And also by the same lawes that some other
men saye all is theyrs what soeuer is founde
aboute a thefe or a robber whê he is takê. _Boni._
Such lawes as these are the arrantest theues that
are myght make them selues. _Bea._ yea and ye may
be sure they wold gladly with al theyr harts î
their bodies make suche lawes yf they coulde
mayntayne them or were of power to se them
executed, and they myght haue some thynge to laye
for theyr excuse if they could proclayme opyn warre
before they fell to robbynge. _Boni._ But who gaue
that pryuylege rather to a horseman then to a
foteman, or more to a gentylman thê to a good
yeman. _Bea._ The fauoure that is shewed to men of
warre, for by suche shyftes and thus they practyse
before to be good men of warre that they ||maye be
more redy & hansome to spoyle theyr enemyes when
they shall encounter with thê. _Boni._ I thynke
Pyrhus dyd so exercyse and breake his yonge
souldyers to the warres. _Bea._ No not Pyrrhus but
the Lacedemonians dyd. _Boni._ Mary syr hange vp
suche practysers or soldyers and theyr practisyng
to. But howe come they by the name of horsemen or
gentylmen that they vsurpe suche a great
prerogatyue? _Bea._ Some of them are gentylmê borne
and it cometh to them by auncestrie, some bye it
by the meanes of maystrys money, and other some
gette it by certayne shyftes. _Boni._ But maye
euery man that wyl and lyst come by it by shyftes?
_Bea._ Yea why not, euery man maye be a gentylman
nowe adayes very well and yf theyr condicions and
maners be accordynge. _Boni._ What maners or
condicions must suche one haue I beseche the?
_Bea._ Yf he be occupyed aboute no goodnesse, yf he
can ruffle it ||and swashe in his satens and his
silkes and go gorgiously apparelled, yf he can
ratle in his rynges vpon the fyngers endes, yf he
can playe the ruffyan and the horemonger and kepe
a gaye hoore gallantlye, yf he be neuer well at
ease but when he is playenge at the dyse, yf he be
able to matche as moche an vnthryfte as hym selfe
with a newe payre of cardes, yf he spende his tyme
lyke an epycure vpon bankettinge, sumptuous fare,
and all kynde of pleasures, yf he talke of no
rascalles nor beggars, but bragge, bost, face,
brace, and crake of castelles, towers, and
skyrmysshes, and yf all his talke be of the warres
and blody battels, and playe the parte of
crackinge Thraso throughly, such gaye grekes,
lusty brutes and ionkers may take vpon them to be
at defyaunce withe whome they wyll and lyst,
thoughe the gentylman haue neuer a fote of lande
to lyue vpon. _Boni._ Call ye them horsmen. Mary
syr suche horsemen are wel ||worthy to ryde vpõ
the gallowes, these are gentylmen of the Iebet of
all that euer I haue harde of. _Bea._ But yet there
be not afewe suche in that parte of Germany called
Nassen or Hessen.
F I N I S
Trãslated by Edmonde Becke
And prynted at Cantorbury
in saynt Paules parishe
by Johñ Mychell.
[+]
* * * * *
* * * *
* * * * *
[Transcriber's note: The following typographical
errors were corrected.
"soldyers cassocke, a payre of hoose all to cut and
manglyd, may co||uer an euangelycall mynde."
hoose _was_ hoofe
"Poliphe. Naye I knowe hym whiche bereth a shepe
vpon his heed, and a sore in his brest"
sore _was_ fore
"orphanes, pupylls, wardes, and fatherlesse
chyldren be cõmunely ordered and vsed, how wylles"
cõmunely _was_ cõmuuely ]
*** End of this LibraryBlog Digital Book "Two Dyaloges (c. 1549)" ***
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