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Title: Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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www.history-matters.com.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ VI
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI:
Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark,
Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins,
Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin,
Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt,
Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President
Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis
Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended
Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge,
Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C.
Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher;
Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson,
who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack
Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C.
Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell,
Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis
Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G.
Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger
D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers,
Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer,
D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who
were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A.
Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens,
Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty,
Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns,
employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William
W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning
Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides,
and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit
crime scene.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Charles J. Carrico 1
Malcolm Oliver Perry 7
William Kemp Clark 18
Robert Nelson McClelland 30
Charles Rufus Baxter 39
Marion Thomas Jenkins 45
Ronald Coy Jones 51
Don Teel Curtis 57
Fouad A. Bashour 61
Gene Coleman Akin 63
Paul Conrad Peters 68
Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72
Jackie Hansen Hunt 76
Kenneth Everett Salyer 80
Martin G. White 82
Robert Shaw 83
Charles Francis Gregory 95
George T. Shires 104
Richard Brooks Dulany 113
Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115
Jane Carolyn Wester 120
Henrietta M. Ross 123
R. J. Jimison 125
Darrell C. Tomlimson 128
Diana Hamilton Bowron 134
Margaret M. Henchliffe 139
Doris Mae Nelson 143
Charles Jack Price 148
Malcolm O. Couch 153
Tom C. Dillard 162
James Robert Underwood 167
James N. Crawford 171
Mary Ann Mitchell 175
Barbara Rowland 177
Ronald B. Fischer 191
Robert Edwin Edwards 200
Jean Lollis Hill 205
Austin L. Miller 223
Frank E. Reilly 227
Earle V. Brown 231
Royce G. Skelton 236
S. M. Holland 239
J. W. Foster 248
J. C. White 253
Joe E. Murphy 256
Roger D. Craig 260
George W. Rackley, Sr 273
James Elbert Romack 277
Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284
B. J. Martin 289
Bobby W. Hargis 293
Clyde A. Haygood 296
E. D. Brewer 302
D. V. Harkness 308
J. Herbert Sawyer 315
Gerald Dalton Henslee 325
William H. Shelley 327
Nat A. Pinkston 334
Billy Nolan Lovelady 336
Frankie Kaiser 341
Charles Douglas Givens 345
Troy Eugene West 356
Danny G. Arce 363
Joe R. Molina 368
Jack Edwin Dougherty 373
Eddie Piper 382
Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386
Geneva L. Hine 393
Doris Burns 397
Mary E. Bledsoe 400
William W. Whaley 428
Earlene Roberts 431
Domingo Benavides 444
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Bowron Exhibit No.: Page
2 138
3 138
4 138
Brewer Exhibit A 304
Brown Exhibit A 236
Davis Exhibit No.:
1 457
2 463
3 465
Dillard Exhibit:
A 166
B 166
C 166
D 166
Dougherty Exhibit:
A 382
B 382
C 382
Edwards Exhibit A 205
Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198
Foster Exhibit:
A 249
B 253
Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73
Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100
Hill Exhibit No. 5 223
Holland Exhibit:
A 242
B 242
C 243
D 245
Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50
Jones Exhibit No. 1 55
Kaiser Exhibit:
A 344
B 344
C 344
Miller Exhibit A 227
Molina Exhibit A 368
Murphy Exhibit A 260
Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147
Piper Exhibit A 386
Price Exhibit No.
2 148
3 149
4 149
5 150
6 150
7 150
8 150
9 150
10 151
11 151
12 151
13 151
14 151
15 151
16 151
17 151
18 151
19 151
20 151
21 151
22 151
23 151
24 151
25 151
26 152
27 152
28 152
29 152
30 152
31 152
32 152
33 152
34 152
35 152
Reilly Exhibit A 231
Sawyer Exhibit:
A 318
B 322
Skelton Exhibit A 239
Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134
Whaley Exhibit A 430
White Exhibit A 254
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO
The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is
present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that
his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of
the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination
of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases
of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland
Memorial Hospital.
Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which
he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary
statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CARRICO. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. CARRICO. Physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.;
received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State
College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961,
and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to
1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by
my residency here.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will
qualify me for my boards in general surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at
Parkland Hospital?
Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery
service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for
evaluation for admission to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock
noon?
Dr. CARRICO. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the
clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these
people and evaluate them for admission and treatment.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the
way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In which President Kennedy was involved?
Dr. CARRICO At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these
patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and
was on his way to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when
you received that call?
Dr. CARRICO. This was probably shortly after 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that call was received did the
President's party actually arrive at Parkland?
Dr. CARRICO. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's
party at Parkland, please.
Dr. CARRICO. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in
response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the
intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and
was taken to one of the trauma rooms.
Mr. SPECTER. And what identification was given to the trauma room to
which Governor Connally was taken?
Dr. CARRICO. Trauma room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came
into the emergency area?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the
nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don
Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern,
was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that
time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and
the rest of the staff.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President
Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. No, no, sir; he didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of
President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. I believe he was in there and did the--he helped Dr.
Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Dulany do?
Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as
I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the
President, care for the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his
arrival at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. CARRICO. I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as
best you can recollect it?
Dr. CARRICO. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the
room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition
to Miss Bowron?
Dr. CARRICO. No, I don't recall any of them.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon
his arrival?
Dr. CARRICO. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow,
spasmodic, described as agonal.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for
just a moment there, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal
coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and
usually reflect a terminal patient.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe your observations of the
President?
Dr. CARRICO. His--the President's color--I don't believe I said--he
was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous
movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt
and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third
of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt
the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds,
and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and
scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little
more closely. There seemed to be a 4-5 cm. area of avulsion of the
scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar
tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated
and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the
inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed
endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through
the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx
and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury.
The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated,
and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate
respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood
pressure was obtained.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the
anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be
any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound?
Dr. CARRICO. This was probably a 4-7 mm. wound, almost in the midline,
maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid
cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged
edges or stellate lacerations.
Mr. SPECTER. You said you felt the President's back?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of
the back involved at that time?
Dr. CARRICO. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to
wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still
on his arms--I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little
above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no
large violation of the pleural cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not take the time to turn him over?
Dr. CARRICO. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more
thorough inspection would have involved several minutes--well,
several--considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A
thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back,
and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You
have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening
and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of
the injuries.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Before--well, in trying to treat an acutely
injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation
and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was
accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed
cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his
back.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after
he had expired?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his
back?
Dr. CARRICO. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it.
Mr. SPECTER. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in
order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that
description, please?
Dr. CARRICO. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been
inserted. After this, the President--his respirations were assisted
by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to
evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially
on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place
and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around
the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a
tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room
to insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the
resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using
polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and
uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300
mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion
of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac
monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical
cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible
electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed
cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in
maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly
deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead.
Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
Dr. CARRICO. A head injury.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the treatment which was given
to the President as best you recollect it?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all--I'm sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the
President's clothing?
Dr. CARRICO. We did not do that.
Mr. SPECTER. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico?
Dr. CARRICO. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed
by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was
devoted to trying to resuscitate the President.
Mr. SPECTER. On the examination of the President's back which you
described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back?
Dr. CARRICO. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back.
I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the
head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there.
Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect
to whether he had any back wound?
Dr. CARRICO. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect
a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is
to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest
posteriorly.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain
whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with
respect to the presence of a back brace, if any?
Dr. CARRICO. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we
noted he was wearing a standard back support.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that back support, please?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support,
with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front.
Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it?
Dr. CARRICO. How wide?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below--you see--as I
recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips
that you observed?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his
body when his pants were removed?
Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President
Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr.
McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones,
Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there--initially, at least, I
don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in
there, I just can't specifically remember--there were 10 or 15 people
in the room before it was over.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of
the punctate wound in the President's throat?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I really don't--just on the basis of what I know. We
didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the
bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you.
Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the
bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track
of the bullets?
Dr. CARRICO. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to
do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to
establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct
these.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended
President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after--later
in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were
not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this
was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another
entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no
other entrance wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an
entry or exit wound, in your opinion?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other?
Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of
the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that
President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the
upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from
the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process,
and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the
missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the
fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side
of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat.
Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would
the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent
with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of
approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with
the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that
wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with
the missile taking the path I have just described to you?
Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce
that result?
Dr. CARRICO. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a
direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would
cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing
through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great
deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing
a small, round, even wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds?
Dr. CARRICO. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen
a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber
weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer
range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size,
especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures.
Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass
through to which you have just referred?
Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the
muscles of the leg superficially.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have
you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the
nature of the head wound which you observed on the President?
Dr. CARRICO. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located
in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to
7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium
and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded
macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the
fragments of the skull attached to the dura.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the
one you have just described?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the
large gaping hole which you described?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how
many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President?
Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any
representative of the Federal Government?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after
the President's death.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?
Dr. CARRICO. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical
school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a
statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true.
Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document
heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page
summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22,
1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic
copy of a report which you submitted?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct?
Dr. CARRICO. They are.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the
trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in
more specific detail?
Dr. CARRICO. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was
inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the
lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and
hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a
ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This
was the extent of what I saw.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any
indication as to direction of the bullet?
Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give
any indication of the direction of the bullet?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you
any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true?
Dr. CARRICO. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some
others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds
were from, the direction, and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries?
Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't
remember specifically.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal
Government prior to today?
Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with
something else?
Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment--Civil Service.
Mr. SPECTER. But the only time you talked to anyone about your
treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that
treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another
Secret Service Agent--I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had
any other information and I said "no".
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you
were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the
purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions
which I would ask you?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you gave me at that time the
same as that to which you have testified here on the record?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your
treatment and observations of President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present
time?
Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body.
Dr. CARRICO. Not by us.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort
concerning your treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to
my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the
treatment.
Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern?
Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why
it happened--maybe.
Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences?
Dr. CARRICO. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
assistance in any way to the President's Commission?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter
requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission,
and do you acknowledge receipt of that?
Dr. CARRICO. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at
that time?
Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can.
Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C.
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico.
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY
The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present
in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his
deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now
inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical
attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which
Dr. Perry participated.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up,
Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. PERRY. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record,
please?
Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you?
Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Texas?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school?
Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine.
Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano
High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the
University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of
Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the
University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with
a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital
in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland
Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then
returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization
in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern
Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of
surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services,
both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a
consultant and attending surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after
noontime on November 22?
Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having
lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald
Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the
residents.
Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an
emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is
the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a
paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to
see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital
operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to
Parkland Hospital for care.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those
factors?
Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency
room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to
render what assistance we could.
At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was
already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico,
the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to
assist respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall,
at that time?
Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were
there--Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several
other people in the room. There were several nurses there--I don't know
at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there
was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both
in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I
assume, part of the legal force.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room,
but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico--I had the
impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an
impression gathered after the fact.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at
the time you first saw him?
Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in
the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been
removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I
believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen
apparatus to assist in respiration.
I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area
in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue
on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was
unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in
the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can,
please?
Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a
punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was
rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of
the wound exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you
can recollect?
Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they
were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I
determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in
size or so.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that
wound?
Dr. PERRY. I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the
condition of the President?
Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not
detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was
apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the
endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this
was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it
was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy
tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect
about your observations of the President before you started to work on
him?
Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any
other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over?
Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent
procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a
condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the
other procedures are to be of no avail.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever
turn him over?
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the
initial action on him?
Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were
breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage,
since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or
pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined
the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the
electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative
measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.
I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the
room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left
my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my
coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.
Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment
of President Kennedy?
Dr. PERRY. It did.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in
the Emergency Room?
Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when
I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look
at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it
again until after I had left the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed
from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived
at the emergency room?
Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really
don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no
occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to
consult it further.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the
emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?
Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed
my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes
in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes,
I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist
in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room
probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to
be dead?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related
to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once
again, I did not verify the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to
revive the President?
Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during
this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the
tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time,
unless you want it.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were
followed in the efforts to save the President's life?
Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the
tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was
present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in
the underlying trachea.
I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it
down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying
the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral
aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea
was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the
strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea.
At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a
catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary
instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.
The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed
tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free
air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.
Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the
presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative
of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a
right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who
did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters
inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.
Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this
time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr.
Jones and Dr. Carrico.
Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to
support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that
he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.
Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under
the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the
anesthesia machine at the head of the table.
Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived
and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the
oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures
performed on the President?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any doctors who participated other than those
whom you have already identified in the course of your description?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr.
Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was
another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an
emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for
Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of
surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them
to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes.
My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was
when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting
me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr.
Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12
doctors all told by then.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Peters--I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters,
assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor
of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of
medicine.
I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke,
his assistant professor of anesthesiology--that's the only people that
I saw directly.
Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don
Curtis?
Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible--I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?
Dr. PERRY. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in
the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was
just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door
when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but
I understand he was not, that actually he was going--just going in the
room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought
Dr. Dulany was there.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising
in the interior portion of the President's neck?
Dr. PERRY. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion
of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for
bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by
definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was
so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to
ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed
myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no
further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea
was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to
reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of
the President's neck?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or
how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the
trajectory.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head,
specifically?
Dr. PERRY. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you,
which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area,
but I did not do a minute examination of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area?
Dr. PERRY. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over
the President at any time during the course of your treatment or
examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then
asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did
in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did
you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures?
Dr. PERRY. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than
it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further
that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a
minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a
little bit out of my domain.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's
clothing to ascertain direction of the missile?
Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know
about--I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an
attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but
the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency
room, I assume.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the description of that brace?
Dr. PERRY. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the
lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of
an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were
taken down?
Dr. PERRY. There was evidence of an Ace bandage--I saw it sticking out
from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was
on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his
right leg--his right thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as
well?
Dr. PERRY. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for
that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or
lower extremities.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in
any other way, of the President's back?
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in a press conference or press
conferences following the death of the President?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first of such press conferences?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been
within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that press conference by way of
identifying, if you can, the members of the news media?
Dr. PERRY. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms
1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people.
I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple
of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights,
and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr.
Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me
as being with the White House Press. I don't know--there were numerous
people of the press.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived
a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked
him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He
apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter
came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he
said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses
did you give at that press conference?
Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions
I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to
be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to
speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and
the exact cause of death.
The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was
that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not
categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it
was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the President
further--I could not comment on any other injuries.
As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive
brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying
cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to
what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such
detail--essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at
that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of
blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure
apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with
the cardiotachioscope.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with
respect to the number of bullets?
Dr. PERRY. I was asked by several of the people of the press,
initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr.
Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it
was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I
replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one
bullet?
Dr. PERRY. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and
I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and
strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the
head."
Mr. SPECTER. And where would that point of entry have been?
Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the
neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have
reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion
was?
Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable--this was possible, but
again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether
there was one or two bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been
one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?
Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press
conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?
Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I
mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed
and very quiet.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur?
Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred
in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't
know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon.
There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the
administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in
relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald.
I don't know how many there were.
Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of
the hospital?
Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily--I
wouldn't say--set up by the administration. They were done here at the
hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with
you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion,
please?
Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar
as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and
which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had
done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the
medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it,
say, at home.
I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in
order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and
approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and
requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and
the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given
to the previous press conference at the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted?
Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you
say anything other than that which you have already related you said
during the course of the first press conference?
Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't
think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording
certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit
more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon
my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our
statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have
made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and
people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I
did are essentially the same in all of these.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore
identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets
which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside
the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time--1630
hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of
the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you
gave to the President on the day of the assassination?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?
Dr. PERRY. That is my signature.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?
Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted
at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?
Dr. PERRY. They have.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with
your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of
the President's wounds?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I
did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat
confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell
whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the
findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings
which I noted at the time that I saw the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to
the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above
the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and
being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14
cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which
parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and
assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at
that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance
of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000
feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the
bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel,
without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing
the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the
President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the
wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your
findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat
be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?
Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the
situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with
your observations and findings?
Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not
examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed,
unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little
injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it
had left the tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's
throat then be consistent with such an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination
as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an
exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound
could be produced by such a missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time
of the press conferences that you described?
Dr. PERRY. They were not.
Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I
believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available
initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause
of the wound, did you not?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were
directed toward me at the various conferences.
Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today
that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to
what might have happened?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the
true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to--in such a manner
as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a
position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And
my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but
similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."
Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you
observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive
opinion?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think,
as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the
preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the
case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.
Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that
I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what
you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors,
which I have asked you to assume?
Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either
by my own knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's
neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3
and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather
large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible
alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the
cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound
is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably
by any number of objects.
Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck
would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I
described to you?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a
different set of factors?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I
do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of
a large expanded bullet--voluntarily I would add that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description
of a large expanded bullet?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a
6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the
right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the
President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion
as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?
Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned,
the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and
the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound,
taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present
sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or
trajectory?
Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the
wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could
certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the
skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to
tell.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it
came from the front or back of the President?
Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of
the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive
wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly
indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance
and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?
Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with
Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls
indicating first the time when they occurred.
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by
about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think
I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not
real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.
Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning?
Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking
with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show.
Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that?
Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday?
Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed
your view from Friday to Saturday?
Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time--Friday
afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about
it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I
thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday,
for some reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you received those calls?
Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything?
Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing
a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure,
that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which
was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury
underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision
made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral
injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.
He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that
he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in
confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired
about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part
as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to
Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them as having placed it in
the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the
right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds
in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I
knowledge of any wounds of the back.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article
which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?
Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of
surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical
services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the
President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such
article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter
about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which
apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York
Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room
No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the
President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview
of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the
rest of it was obtained from various people here.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate?
Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content
was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification
of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to
conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have
knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since
they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the
Federal Government about this matter prior to today?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what
occasions? As best you can recollect it.
Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did
not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these
things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little
better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very
difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several
people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as
being affiliated with the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service
personnel?
Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact
dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even
remember their names now.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman?
Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I
indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present
time it escapes me.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence?
Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions
and my care of the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which
you have given the Federal investigators?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in
wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined
it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge,
has been essentially consistent.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the
Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?
Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified
themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not
recall their names either.
Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about?
Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might
speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I
replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my
own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which
you gave to the FBI?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being
essentially the same thing.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had
with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. PERRY. I think I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of
this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the
record, before this deposition started?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you
provided on the record here today?
Dr. PERRY. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the President's Commission?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition
today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in
Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the
record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more
question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this
deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?
Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland,
which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the
trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly
considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile
accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in
addition to that obtained here at Parkland?
Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was
in the service.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen
while you have been at Parkland?
Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?
Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur
hand loader.
Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what?
Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.
Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK
The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on
March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right
hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in
this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated.
Dr. CLARK. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts
related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been
asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical
treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital
and all facts incident thereto.
Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission
enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and
a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and
a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?
Dr. CLARK. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today,
even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the
letter and this morning?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational
background, please?
Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin,
1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at
Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and
was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in
the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at
Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to
1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern
Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.
Would you like the professional qualifications?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary
form, if you will, please.
Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological
Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a
member of the Harvey Cushing Society.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?
Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the
world.
Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the
Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?
Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery
and carry the responsibility of administering this department or
this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in
neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have
the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland
Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical
school.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that
the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that
notification?
Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of
receiving that notification?
Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland
Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when
this word reached me by phone from the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes,
so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival,
attending to the President?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to
say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving
either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland,
Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on
your arrival there?
Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart.
Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being
inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations
through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were
administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making
a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the
endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert
the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.
My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to
light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.
I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was
a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and
cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable
blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of
some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being
present.
As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse
and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked
that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was
difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that
he felt a femoral pulse.
Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse?
Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and
at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial
pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was
taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?
Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a
cardiac monitor for a better word----
Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word.
Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad
Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the
President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the
external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be
felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed?
Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what
way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?
Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely
difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was
monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?
Dr. CLARK. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death
certificate?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that?
Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr.
George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed
the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas,
and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of
the death of the President?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?
Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the
President's body?
Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at
Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on
the day of the assassination?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur?
Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held?
Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the
press at the conference?
Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual
note pads and pencils, and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press
conference and photographed?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. No one else?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that
press conference?
Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much
the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was
an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an
exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time?
Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by
"tangential"?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?
Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as
being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail
the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type
of a striking?
Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ
when struck by a bullet or other missile----
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition
for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be
here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12
o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the
deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential
and other types of striking.
Go ahead, Doctor.
Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function
of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this
organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through
rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage
results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated
by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must
then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed
more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.
Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of
the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles.
Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it
would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual
direct line it was proceeding.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you
define a tangential wound at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at
2:30 on November 22?
Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood,
that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood
loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had
sustained or from what angle they could have come.
I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a
massive one and was insurvivable.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of
that press conference, when the cameras were operating?
Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small
wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the
tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was
deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest.
He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He
was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit
wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance
wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in
response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur?
Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time?
Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a
minute, which television networks were involved on that?
Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had
never heard of.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major
networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC?
Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room
two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and
television stations were also present.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had
started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what
time of day that was?
Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in
that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our
local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and
as full as the first one.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan,
assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital.
This is his office.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the
television cameras were grinding?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press
conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the
President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's
condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he
described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a
point of entry or exit?
Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add
something to what I said in the first press conference?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind,
please feel free to add that.
Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at
the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a
wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said
something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.
Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have
been possible in that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with
gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take,
and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had
to go to get from there to the top of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking
specific parts of the body?
Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile
would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the
President was hanging upside down.
Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that
second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about
that subject?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda
Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the
autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by
the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to
that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested
that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts
to you?
Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I
could be wrong on that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur?
Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day.
Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time?
Dr. CLARK. It was CBS.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr.
Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if
it differed in any way from what you said before?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before,
describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the
President, how he was called and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an
entrance wound or an exit wound or what?
Dr. CLARK. I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He
described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He
described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the
time he was anesthetized in the operating room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what
was done in an attempt to save him.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding
Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was
anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw
it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on
President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President
Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of
entry or exit?
Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that
press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President
Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found
an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he
described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1,
and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision
to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr.
Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press
conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the
assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time?
Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so
stated in the conference.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When was that?
Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. With BBC.
Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again.
Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference
with you?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?
Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous
conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what
transpired after I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a
hole on the left side of the President's head?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences?
Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated
that I personally saw no such wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?
Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought
up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was
some discussion of such a wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the
wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the
left side?
Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a
comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?
Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who
attended the press conference with NBC.
Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?
Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the
President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other
hole or wound on the President's head?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a
bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior
scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the
external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in
the blood and hair.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on
the back side of the President?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other
doctors who were in attendance?
Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance,
because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate
signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's
body out of Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley.
Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some
other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral
wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5
cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital
proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present
without your observing it?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and
scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time
available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present.
Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the
autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling);
Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col.
Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion
that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm.
and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital
protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's
head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward
with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open
car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied
to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet
would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the
center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening
from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought
to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent
with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I
have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have
personally observed?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you
comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency,
had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described
and the total wound which he had?
Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance.
Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably
have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The
loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal
lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a
visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with
his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se,
but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have
had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper.
This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information
on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.
How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the
ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not
know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to
move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most
important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as
a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired
his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of
the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned
with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue
does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There
would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to
give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of
the United States.
Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with
people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon
them.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on
your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to
the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit
No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport
to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and
correct?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to
bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if
that, in fact, is your signature?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand
concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings
of any sort concerning this matter?
Dr. CLARK. No; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with
any Federal representative prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to?
Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination,
in Mr. Jack Price's office.
Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?
Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This
agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles
from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew
of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I
assured him I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have
asked and he said that was all he wished to know.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the
Federal Government at any time before today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service
approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on
two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the
written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.
I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I
prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified
here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of
the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I
had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did
not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have
written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have
had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative
of the State government prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken,
did you and I have a discussion about this matter?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this
Commission is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record
was open and we started taking your deposition?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter
transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and
prior to the start of the more formal session here?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which
you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr.
Clark?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it,
Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.
Dr. CLARK. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED
The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March
25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to
have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition
which was taken on March 21.
Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the
first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions
based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express",
which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.
Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what
purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of
February 20, 1964?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.
"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp
Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet
hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently
referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not
come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the
President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet
which hit 'the right side of his head'".
Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a
New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect
to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.
Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a
wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of
his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was
an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when
the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement
regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that
there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw
the President.
A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial
quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the
bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the
placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It
was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the
trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that
a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the
trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck
which so indicated?
Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if
there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have
been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space,
the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of
air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will
produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat,
there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of
the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without
opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed
that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile
into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of
bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which
you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the
deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no
means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the
chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile
in the chest?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have
been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on
the neck?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.
Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have
been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to
take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in
the chest at some point?
Dr. CLARK. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had
happened.
Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express,"
"This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would
that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr.
Clark?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask
you a few additional questions.
Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have
taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been
transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what
I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you
before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping.
Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?
Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in
the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward
saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds.
After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the
conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would
be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory
external examination here.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?
Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any
bleeding wound noted?
Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer
that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there
had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally?
Dr. CLARK. That's correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first
doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine
whether there was any major violation of that area.
Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was
any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on
the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the
scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip
of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?
Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question?
Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling
approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter,
cause a bloody type of a wound?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in
the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of
the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred
which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised
here in "L' Express".
"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the
President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?"
Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that
question, as the news media has posed it?
Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time
the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life.
When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not
done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that
would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his
assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would
be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any
cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death
certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance
with what you believed to be good medical practice?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that
the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross
negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it
here.
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where
the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be
filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to
be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death
certificate.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think
might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's
Commission?
Dr. CLARK. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the
questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it
went on the record?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal
Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and
this Wednesday morning?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.
Dr. CLARK. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND
The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March
21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you raise your right hand?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these
proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to
take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is
being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you
to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which
President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Robert Nelson McClelland.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter from the Commission which
enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a
copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and
a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions
for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time
of the receipt of the letter and today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, Doctor?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I am a doctor of medicine.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
starting with your graduation from college, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Since graduation from college I attended medical
school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex.,
and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to
Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University
of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that
period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years
in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became
a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas
in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August
1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and
then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June
1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962.
Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the
staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am
at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland
Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where in your background did you acquire that experience?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely during residency training and subsequent to
that in my capacity here on the staff.
Mr. SPECTER. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience
here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to
acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital
which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all
of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved
frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number
of that type patient almost daily.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot
wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At that time I was showing a film on surgical
techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of
Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the
fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency
room after having been shot.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take following that
notification?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the
Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency
room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been
taken immediately upon arrival.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency
Room 1?
Dr. McCLELLAND. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate
or estimate, rather, about 12:40.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your
arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry--would you like the
full names of all these?
Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, I would appreciate that.
Dr. McCLELLAND. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles
Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they all present at the time you arrived?
Dr. McCLELLAND. They were not present when I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start with the ones who were present?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry,
the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and
Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same
time that I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did,
in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?
Dr. McCLELLAND. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr.
Kenneth Salyer.
Mr. SPECTER. S-a-l-y-e-r?
Dr. McCLELLAND. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald
Seldin----
Mr. SPECTER. S-e-l-d-i-n?
Dr. McCLELLAND. S-e-l-d-i-n--I believe that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition
at that time?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting
him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical
gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head
injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood
appeared cyanotic----
Mr. SPECTER. "Cyanotic"--may I interrupt--just what do you mean by that
in lay terms?
Dr. McCLELLAND. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black
discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant,
which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased
intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at
the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving
artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was operating that machine?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The machine--there was a changeover, just as I came
in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been
operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing
machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same
time I arrived--this would be one other doctor who came in the
room that I forgot about--Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of
anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine,
which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of
respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's
tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with
these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I
came in.
Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at
the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately
at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in
the neck line.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the
neck wound when you first arrived?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time
converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made
by Dr. Perry, and he told me--although I did not see that--that he had
made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter
inch in diameter wound in the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely
than that?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He did not at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He has since that time.
Mr. SPECTER. And what description has he given of it since that time?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave
was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small
injury, with clear cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less
than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding
it on the skin.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that
bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin
portion, that is.
Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection
with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation
with respect to the head wound?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As I took the position at the head of the table that
I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in
such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I
noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely
blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so
that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to
be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of
the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung
open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually
look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or
so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some
of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount
of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels
in the skull which had been blasted open.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he alive at the time you first saw him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the
hectic activity--I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or
what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say
that would perhaps give evidence--this is not vital activity--at most,
is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but
it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him,
whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe the activity and part that you
performed in the treatment which followed your arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry
and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked
together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles
out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the
spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the
fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube
into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to
this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here.
Mr. SPECTER. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior
damage to the President?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that for me, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of
contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right
side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site
was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left
side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required
partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough
exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of
soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently
the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the
strap muscles which were applied closely to it.
Mr. SPECTER. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the
time you were performing the procedures you have just described?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had
consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely,
the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in
the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too
much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes
were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and
as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know
exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood.
In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the
tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were
attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say,
an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity,
and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left
chest--both, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who was placing those tubes?
Dr. McCLELLAND. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters.
The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall--I perhaps
better not say.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know about how long that took in placing those
chest tubes?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in.
What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and
that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and
slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes
of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the
lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was
probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of
blood and air into one or both pleural cavities.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect did this medical treatment have on President
Kennedy?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt
that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed
rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling
that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as
establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what
not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and
cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And, at what time did he expire?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head
injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues
and massive blood loss.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his
body other than that which you have already described for me?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the
time you saw him until the pronouncement of death?
Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. On his what?
Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he on the stretcher at all times?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table
onto which he could be placed from the stretcher?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; generally we do not move patients from the
stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then
they are moved onto the operating table.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the
course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you
could have seen the back of his body?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who
attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which
was inflicted on him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what facts did you have available either to you or to
the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the
nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew
nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired.
We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired,
essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20
or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial
impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your initial impressions?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the
wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound
and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral
body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce
the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining
of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much
easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets,
which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one
then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it.
Mr. SPECTER. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer,
to whom do you mean by "we"?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously
been mentioned here.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the
President's head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not
lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid
moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see,
of course, all the extent of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. You saw a large opening which you have already described?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I saw the large opening which I have described.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large
opening on the back of the head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the experience that you have described for us
with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you
characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as
being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description
which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were
there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of
entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your
words?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would say it would be equally consistent with either
type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite
difficult to say--impossible.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report
which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and
has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission
Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page,
"Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all
if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and
next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the
authorities at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the
best of your knowledge, information and belief?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a
few minutes before I started to take your deposition today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And I discussed this matter with you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, during the course of our conversations at that time,
did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you
have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And has the information which you have given me on the
record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in
advance?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your
testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to
waive any such signature of the testimony?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would be willing to waive my signature.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition
today.
Dr. McCLELLAND. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED
The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has
returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation
of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the
intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr.
McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today.
Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this
deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French,
of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you
if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to
a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis
Post Dispatch.
Dr. McCLELLAND. (Examined instrument referred to.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post
Dispatch about this matter?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his name?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Richard Dudman.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I recall, it was the day after the
assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about
that.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said
to you and you said to him, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt
to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and
as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a
small undamaged--appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck,
the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual
entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be--you
couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of
certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds
of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference
between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in
essence what I told him about the nature of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time
the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated,
in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when
I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to
assist with the tracheotomy.
Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and
were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended
through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as
an entrance wound.
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the
entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it
is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by
everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this,
if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in
its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it
had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the
wound--but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described
it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound,
knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I
really couldn't say--that's the whole point. This would merely be a
calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just
seeing the wound itself.
Mr. SPECTER. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the
incision was made?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be
based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post
Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your
only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really
don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether
I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or
whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr.
Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time
exactly what I said to him.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional
questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I
asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet
had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not
have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers
you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many,
many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be
absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that
time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the
subject.
First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the
wounds on President Kennedy which you observed?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate
moment?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time.
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before
we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were
just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran
through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered
through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which
we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to
ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base
of the skull and out the rear of the skull.
This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have
made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were
surrounding the assassination, this was much more readily explainable
to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many
bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Two.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your
opinion in that respect?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from
all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination.
Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me
change my mind in that regard.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional
facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you
and I'll ask you for an opinion.
Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right
posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point
14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a
tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of
entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a
muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located
160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on
the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two
strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved
through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and
exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's
neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side
of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet
might make in such a trajectory through the President's body?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that
would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined
them to you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the
missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding
from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it
had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even
though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost
a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore
would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the
bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole
like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that.
Mr. SPECTER. What would have happened then to the other portion of the
bullet if it had fragmented?
Dr. McCLELLAND. It might have been left along, or portions of it along
the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this.
Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there
will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment
out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is
extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like
that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, assuming this situation--that the bullet did not
fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is,
it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there
were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is
left in.
Dr. McCLELLAND. I think even then you could make the statement that
this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through
this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before
it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really
great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high
velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such
as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance
hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the
anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density
from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body,
it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up
a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet
of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large
area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily make the usual kind
of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity
heavy caliber bullet.
This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been
implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell
for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was
blown up a good deal.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned
over?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The President's body was not turned over because the
initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency
are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and
replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried
out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical
examination, which of course would have required that these other
emergency measures not be done immediately.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any examination of the President's back at
all?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of the President's back made to your
knowledge?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Not here--no.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the Commission?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that
some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound
may have been misleading, possibly--probably because of our fault in
telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of
being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we
generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be
certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government
about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing
you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the
record here?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me in response to
my questions the same that we put on the record here?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland.
Dr. McCLELLAND. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER
The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on
March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in
response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition.
For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of
the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President
Kennedy.
Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in
connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy,
and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr.
Baxter, and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's
Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. BAXTER. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please?
Dr. BAXTER. Charles Rufus Baxter.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. BAXTER. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. BAXTER. University of Texas--1948 through 1950. Southwestern
Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship,
1956 medicine residency--internal medicine residency. 1956 through
1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through
1964--surgical residency, and 1964 through the present--this is 1964, I
got out of the Army--in 1958, 1958 through 1962--surgery residency, and
1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Doctor?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what boards have you passed?
Dr. BAXTER. The American Board of Surgeons.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified?
Dr. BAXTER. 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specific title at the medical school?
Dr. BAXTER. Assistant professor of surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President
Kennedy at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding
your being called to render such assistance?
Dr. BAXTER. I was conducting the student health service in the hours
of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency
room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency
room, having been shot.
I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it
took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency
room?
Dr. BAXTER. I think it was 12:40--thereabouts.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that time?
Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins--several nurses.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the nurses?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; Mrs. Nelson--and who else? There were two or three
others whose names--Miss Henchliffe was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Miss Bowron?
Dr. BAXTER. Who?
Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Bowron there?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any other nurses there?
Dr. BAXTER. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that
time?
Dr. BAXTER. Oh, let's see--I'm not sure whether the others came before
or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour
finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt--yes--she was, I believe she was
the anesthesiologist who came.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there?
Dr. BAXTER. I'm not sure--I just don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition
of the President?
Dr. BAXTER. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping
wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its
extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the
pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were
deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so
that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way was his breathing being assisted?
Dr. BAXTER. With an anesthesia machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his
condition?
Dr. BAXTER. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The
anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is that who said that to you?
Dr. BAXTER. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart
was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous
catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that
time--well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other
wound was in his neck, that we saw.
Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that
moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest
tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a
tracheotomy.
Mr. SPECTER. Who performed the tracheotomy?
Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr.
McClelland, and I believe that's all--there may have been one more
person that held the retractor.
Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy
at that time?
Dr. BAXTER. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of
a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the
tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present.
Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube
placement.
We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him
closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope
hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat
electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at
that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him,
while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity
to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope,
that is, in a word--literally the right side of his head had been blown
off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present--a
large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well--we felt that
such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not
pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and
last rites before we pronounced him dead.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time was he pronounced dead?
Dr. BAXTER. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been
that that was Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time
of death be fixed with any precision?
Dr. BAXTER. I don't think so--the time elapsing in all of this
resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one
could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1
o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made
to save the life of the President?
Dr. BAXTER. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were
administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous
medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood
loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors arrived during the course of the
treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?
Dr. BAXTER. I don't recall--I know that there were more doctors present
in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure
is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the
Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can
the nature of the head wound?
Dr. BAXTER. The only wound that I actually saw--Dr. Clark examined this
above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was
in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there
was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain
oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a
rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at
the top of the head?
Dr. BAXTER. No; I personally did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can
the wound which you noticed on the President's neck?
Dr. BAXTER. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half
above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was
in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical
wound. The edges of it--the size of the wound is measured by the hole
plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small
wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised
in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper
tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of
the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea.
The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left.
Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which
was immediately above the area of damage--where we thought the damaged
area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the
endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into
the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good
control or perfect control of respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck
sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical
certainty as to what was the cause of the hole?
Dr. BAXTER. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot
wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect
with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did
not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an
exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found
or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry.
However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending
upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that
it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound
could well represent either exit or entry wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you
personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these
additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound
of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border
of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape,
being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm.
below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of
facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet
shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from
a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per
second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the
President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder
without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline
of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be
consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just
given to you?
Dr. BAXTER. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of
this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through
tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence
which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a
wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. What would be the considerations which, in your mind,
would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?
Dr. BAXTER. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet
would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which
would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend
to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than
this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would
create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be
the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a
rather large wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?
Dr. BAXTER. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit
was not of any greater magnitude than it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet
could have passed in the general direction which I have described to
you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of
great density?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have
described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it
would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of
paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.
Mr. SPECTER. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave
which you have heretofore described?
Dr. BAXTER. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not
ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is
damage that is recognized several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?
Dr. BAXTER. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding
tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early
course after a missile has passed through.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size,
and nature of the hole of exit?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without
striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble
at all?
Dr. BAXTER. No, it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with
gunshot wounds?
Dr. BAXTER. For the past 6 years--we admit and treat, I would estimate,
around 500 gunshot wounds per year--thereabouts.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds?
Dr. BAXTER. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of
various velocities and that type missile wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him,
Dr. Baxter?
Dr. BAXTER. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first
saw him until the time he was pronounced dead?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Would your examination have been conducted in any
different way had this particular victim not been the President of the
United States?
Dr. BAXTER. I think--yes--in that we would have, particularly,
postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would
certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the
direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under
the circumstances.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances?
Dr. BAXTER. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of
people in the room by that time--Secret Service Agents, the priests and
so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service
more or less--well, requested that we clear the room and leave them
with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret
Service wished was carried out.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that?
Dr. BAXTER. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did,
as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests.
In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at
that time was such that probably we would not--we didn't feel that we
should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care
of all that we were going to miss.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your
professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was
rendered to the President?
Dr. BAXTER. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room
was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in
no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment
used in the care of the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr.
Baxter?
Dr. BAXTER. Gunshot wound to the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President
Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the
neck?
Dr. BAXTER. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck
that would not be well taken care of by simply--by the tracheotomy and
chest tubes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any bullets in the President's body?
Dr. BAXTER. No, we did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body?
Mr. BAXTER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which
has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report
from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a
page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which
you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all,
if that is your signature?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, if this is the report which you submitted?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort
concerning your care of President Kennedy?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of
your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots?
Dr. BAXTER. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the
President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On
arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted
respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in
one leg and in the left arm.
The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first
observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones
were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive
lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated
laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as
noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and
I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace
anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered
by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no
heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a
cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was
obtained.
Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected,
no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made."
Mr. SPECTER. And that bears your signature?
Dr. BAXTER. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery,
Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal
Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today?
Dr. BAXTER. The only person was a Secret Service Agent
about--approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any
additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the
medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No."
Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to
transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss
this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would
ask you?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the answers given on the record here the same as
you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was
started?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter.
Dr. BAXTER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS
The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared
in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to
testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed
by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of
purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right
hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's
Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. JENKINS. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. JENKINS. Marion Thomas Jenkins.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?
Dr. JENKINS. I'm a physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins?
Dr. JENKINS. Anesthesiology.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background for me,
please?
Dr. JENKINS. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have
a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical
Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of
Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940-41; Assistant Residency in
Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941-42;
active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946;
Resident in Surgery--Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946-47; Resident in
anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947-48;
and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and
Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman
of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern
Medical School--since 1951. Diplomate--other certification, do you want
this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, what Boards are you certified?
Dr. JENKINS. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology
and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you certified by the American Board?
Dr. JENKINS. 1952.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding
your being called into that case?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the
hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires,
being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any
service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call.
Mr. SPECTER. What does that mean, "Stat"?
Dr. JENKINS. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has
been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and
one of the surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone,
thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of
Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately
came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from
his face--I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President
has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we
heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway
from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this
was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the
street, but these came on clear to the building.
Mr. SPECTER. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the
hospital?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department,
that's on the second floor--one floor above the dining room, where I
was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw,
my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that
the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room
and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including
an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are
used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it
down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in
the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I
guess.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be
indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the
clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I
didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the
emergency room, if anyone?
Dr. JENKINS. The hallway was loaded with people.
Mr. SPECTER. What medical personnel were in attendance?
Dr. JENKINS. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service
men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it
turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany--Dick Dulany, I guess you
have his name, and several nurses were in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you identify the nurses?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later
looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names
of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I
first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it
seemed to me.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later
observations of them?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the
procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, would you do that for us, please?
Dr. JENKINS. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss
Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe--I don't
know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. Margaret?
Dr. JENKINS. Margaret--certainly. Those three--there were probably some
student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you
recollect as being in the room?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only
the--actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the President,
two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have
identified all I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition when
you arrived in the emergency room?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This
is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much
trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made
up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are
referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles
of respiration. He had this characteristic of respiration. His eyes
were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused,
cyanotic--a purplish cyanosis.
Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal
type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at
this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because
one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the
activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped,
such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted,
he can be saved.
Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud
of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and
under the circumstances--it was harder--he had just completed a 3-month
rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented
good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had
a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound.
The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube,
the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go
into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from
both lungs, or both chests.
There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing
apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected
this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen
by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the
scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with
something I am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, I must insist on
that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation
with 100 percent oxygen.
As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection.
Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish
of the circumstance.
Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished
personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered
or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative
procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the
resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan,
because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in
their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity
for this being done.
There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the
neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would
have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in.
This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea
and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or
a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley
Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe,
started the tracheotomy.
About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr.
Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious
physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest
drainage--chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not
aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed
chest cardiac massage.
There were other people--one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in
the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department
connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on
the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the
sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them
on my report, which you have here, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show
you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit
No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital
Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his
possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what
purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963,
and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr.
Price?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the
neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the
endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr.
Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as
accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the
tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up
the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and
respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I
should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound
of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly
demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an
entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course,
entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound
also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression
it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound--for
the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by
recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the wound in the neck as
specifically as you can at this moment?
Dr. JENKINS. I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in
the head?
Dr. JENKINS. Almost by the time I was--had the time to pay more
attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were
under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the
patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia
apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up
and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the
cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention
to the wound in the head.
Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time
and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each
compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the
skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of
the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there
was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on
the drapes of the cart on which the President lay.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive
loss of skull which you have described?
Dr. JENKINS. On the right side?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. JENKINS. No--I don't know whether this is right or not, but I
thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the
hairline and right above the zygomatic process.
Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr.
Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for--I was palpating here for a pulse
to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not
and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and
so I thought there was a wound there also.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was President Kennedy
pronounced dead?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300,
according to my watch, at least, at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
Dr. JENKINS. Cerebral injury--brain injury.
Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course
of this treatment at Parkland?
Dr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I
think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were
there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong
word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this
was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he
had a fatal wound, and I think my own personal feeling was that this
was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have
done any further search.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your
knowledge?
Dr. JENKINS. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he
was being cared for?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; let's go off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr.
Jenkins.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are back on the record and
Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the
declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to
repeat for the record what you have just said off the record.
Dr. JENKINS. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as
"chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the
sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there
was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as
brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient
was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and
this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the
electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up.
However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since
I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued
attempted resuscitative maneuvers.
When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the
emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and
asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration
job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper
time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not
sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The
time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that
medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be
a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time
they would still have the final rites.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was
declared dead medically?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me
that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal--on
the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back
into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because
they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that
they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put
forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the
priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure,
respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My
memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's
the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was
still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your
characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of
facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your
view or opinion.
Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound
on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of
the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion
process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and
that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon
having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and
approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after
entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile
traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without
violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the
trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which
you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I
have just described?
Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr.
Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that
is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for
this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so
I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard
a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid
probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I
do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of
the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they
have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the
department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular
system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds
of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and
activities during the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in
exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds?
Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal
Government at any time prior to today?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who
showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came
to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the
hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I
had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation,
I think.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your
participation in the treatment of the President?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School,
essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have
that. I don't know whether you want it or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it.
Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however--can I ask you
something off of the record here?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off
the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a
couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will
ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.
(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit
No. 36, for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify
this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted
to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on
your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the
record--I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question
as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in
your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this
would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have
not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of
exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?
Mr. SPECTER. It did not.
Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been
fatal.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds
which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?
Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been
two bullets--two missiles.
Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?
Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as
I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of
exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought
it was a wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in
connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy?
Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his
pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must
have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his
chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go
that way. I thought it did.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other
opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds
been changed in any way?
Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a
wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the
hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have
been a wound there (indicating).
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of
entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me.
This was my only other question about it.
Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your
opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service
Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal
Government prior to today about this subject?
Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, as far as I remember--I have had no formal
interviews. I have been asked--there have been some people calling on
the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources
all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done
this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we
followed.
Mr. SPECTER. But the only one you can identify as being from the
Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret
Service?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before
the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which
you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on
the record?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything which you think of to add that
you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the
President's Commission in its inquiry?
Dr. JENKINS. I believe not, Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES
The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March
24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones
has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition
for the President's Commission on the assassination of President
Kennedy.
Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate
all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment
of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify
concerning your knowledge of that treatment.
With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your
right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the
President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Dr. JONES. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the
University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through
1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of
Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in
Los Angeles County General Hospital.
From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year
general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of
internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery
and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of
Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the
present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at
Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding
your being called into the case?
Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator
page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time
I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had
been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.
I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is
the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made
for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of
the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and
notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the
emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the
President had been brought in.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at
the emergency room?
Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived?
Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm
not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we
arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time?
Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and----
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name?
Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now--I know her.
Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?
Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron?
Dr. JONES. No--just the--
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson?
Dr. JONES. Nelson.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you
have already mentioned at the time you arrived?
Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe
and Miss Bowron.
Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?
Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr.
Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?
Dr. JONES. I didn't see him.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall?
Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be
upon your arrival?
Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and
Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal
respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency
measures to try to restore the airway.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean
an effort by the President?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?
Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President
was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see
this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and
started work.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration?
Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain,
that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular
type respirations.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be
the President's condition?
Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact
that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes
were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the
eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or
was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so
that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted
immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not
adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that
he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that
he was getting adequate oxygen.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the
President then?
Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted
to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with
Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from
the machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the
President's condition at that time?
Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds?
Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small
wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch,
and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest
diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of
the head.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?
Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this
time observing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the
wound at that time? Either wound?
Dr. JONES. Not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of
the head wound?
Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the
President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging
out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the
brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that
you observed in the throat?
Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a
quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn
present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood
that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount
of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of
disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to
be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a
result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile
of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a
bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a
very small, smooth wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?
Dr. JONES. No; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of
the wound which you have described of the throat?
Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount
that was around the head--not too much.
Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in
addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?
Dr. JONES. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the
cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to
give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood,
and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns
in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in
the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were
started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing
the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in
and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they
made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought
they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on
one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of
the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the
second intercostal space.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?
Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was
immediately connected to underwater drainage.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage",
Dr. Jones?
Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in
the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is
forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that
the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give
adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a
chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite
side due to the number of people that were working on the President.
Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as
Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of
us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by
Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.
Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President
Kennedy?
Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood
was started--I believe that the President was also administered some
hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and
at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no
evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by
Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant
or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.
Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's
adrenal insufficiency?
Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President
had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that
he possibly had Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence
that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his
insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of
severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into
a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of
steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed
situation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any
other person on the scene?
Dr. JONES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the
President had no adrenal insufficiency?
Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if
the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.
Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this
treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already
mentioned?
Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr.
McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of
just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of
neurosurgery here.
Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors?
Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily
the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the
President, although there were some other doctors in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear
your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated
November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as
Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.
(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No.
1, for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted
concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. JONES. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following,
"Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well
as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet
entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet
entrance wound, sir?
Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you
would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a
patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at
a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and
if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an
explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this
appeared to have on superficial examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of
low velocity, as you put it?
Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think
that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just
enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment
of bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete
year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in
addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every
other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we
see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time,
sometimes as many as four and five a night.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which
was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 mm. bullet
which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck
without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the
neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of
2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250
feet from the weapon?
Dr. JONES. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the
anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the
body, but not in the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones?
Dr. JONES. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a
massive amount of soft tissue destruction.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone
or what?
Dr. JONES. Probably where it has struck bone.
Mr. SPECTER. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone
becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating
the soft tissue damage?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to
accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President,
as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day,
or shortly thereafter?
Dr. JONES. With no history as to the number of times that the President
had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and
seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an
exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation
that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound
would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a
vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the
posterior portion of the head. However, this was--there was some doubt
that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly
change its course by striking, but at the present--at that time, if I
accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way
I accounted for it.
Mr. SPECTER. And would that account take into consideration the
extensive damage done to the top of the President's head?
Dr. JONES. If this were the course of the missile, it
probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although I would
possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral
column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also
think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one
that was present at the time we saw it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the
vertebral column?
Dr. JONES. No, we could not see this.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or
doctors?
Dr. JONES. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. With whom?
Dr. JONES. With Dr. Perry--is the only one that I recall specifically,
and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot,
because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes,
the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that
possibly he had been shot more than once.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the President's back?
Dr. JONES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over?
Dr. JONES. Not while I was in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What was he on when you first saw him?
Dr. JONES. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and
can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far
as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so
forth.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was
brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be
dead?
Dr. JONES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this
time?
Dr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your status on your progress with that,
generally?
Dr. JONES. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this
year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency.
Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones?
Dr. JONES. Thirty-one.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of
the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. JONES. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least
two occasions.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you on those occasions?
Dr. JONES. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was
true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room
with the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they ask you anything else other than that?
Dr. JONES. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces
of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been
administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them
"No."
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes
before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to
you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting
forth the same information which we have put on the record here today?
Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful to the Commission in any way?
Dr. JONES. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr.
Jones.
Dr. JONES. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS
The testimony of Dr. Don Teel Curtis was taken at 9:25 a.m., on March
24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that present are Dr. Don Curtis and
the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding
being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the
assassination, including the medical treatment performed for President
Kennedy.
Dr. Don Curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter
requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical
treatment of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of the
general objective of the Commission and the specific objective of this
deposition proceeding, Dr. Curtis, will you rise and raise your right
hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Presidential
Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CURTIS. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Don Teel, T-e-e-l (spelling) Curtis.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your occupation or profession?
Dr. CURTIS. Oral surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. CURTIS. I attended my freshman year at Boulder, Colo., Colorado
University, 2 subsequent years of undergraduate work at Texas
University, 4 years at Baylor Dental College, and I have been interning
here for a year and a half.
Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from Baylor Dental College?
Dr. CURTIS. 1962.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time?
Dr. CURTIS. Twenty-six.
Mr. SPECTER. And what has your work consisted of here at Parkland
Hospital?
Dr. CURTIS. I have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now
am a resident this year in oral surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed dentist?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you obtain that status in the State of Texas?
Dr. CURTIS. I think in August of 1962.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment
of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding
your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort?
Dr. CURTIS. I was--do you want me to tell from the time that I got to
the emergency room?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes--how did you happen to get to the emergency room?
Dr. CURTIS. I was in our out-patient clinic and saw the President's
car, or I saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and
I went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the
emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room
where President Kennedy was.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that?
Dr. CURTIS. I don't know--it was shortly after he arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long after he arrived?
Dr. CURTIS. I would say it was within--I would say within a minute
after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to
know that.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the trauma room at that time?
Dr. CURTIS. Dr. Carrico and a nurse, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the nurse?
Dr. CURTIS. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of
President Kennedy at that time?
Dr. CURTIS. I observed that he was in a supine position, with his head
extended, and I couldn't see on my arrival--I couldn't see the nature
of the wounds, however, Dr. Carrico was standing at the patient's head.
Dr. Carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and I participated in
applying the Bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for
artificial respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. How does it happen that you would participate to that
effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon?
Dr. CURTIS. We participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries
of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked
onto a patient. We have a tour through anesthesia. We spend time on
general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway
which makes us, I would say, qualified, for airway management. In our
training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on
intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures
attendant with the management of I.V. fluids.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there always someone from oral surgery available at the
trauma area?
Dr. CURTIS. One of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room
at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the
emergency room. We see many patients in the emergency room area.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who
would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes--maxillofacial injuries.
Mr. SPECTER. And in addition, you help out in a general way when there
is an emergency situation?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything in President Kennedy's condition
which called for the application of your specific specialty?
Dr. CURTIS. No; there wasn't.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as
an emergency case?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed
with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what
you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration.
Dr. CURTIS. It is very difficult to say whether or not the President
was making a respiratory effort, but I'm not sure that he wasn't making
a respiratory effort.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think that he was making a respiratory effort?
Dr. CURTIS. He could have been, and that's as far as I can go on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe movements of the chest?
Dr. CURTIS. I thought I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his coloring?
Dr. CURTIS. He was pink--he wasn't cyanotic when I saw him.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for
the record at this point?
Dr. CURTIS. When the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a
blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of
the hemoglobin is reduced. That's not a lay term either, but when the
patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent.
Mr. SPECTER. And how does that manifest itself in the patient?
Dr. CURTIS. The patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color.
Mr. SPECTER. What action was Dr. Carrico taking upon your arrival?
Dr. CURTIS. He had placed an endotracheal tube in the President's
trachea for artificial respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he doing anything else?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes; he was applying the Bird machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any?
Dr. CURTIS. He directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the
emergency room, and I think it was Dr. Carrico directed me to start the
I.V. fluids.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do in response to his
direction?
Dr. CURTIS. I assisted him in fitting the tube from the Bird machine
to the endotracheal tube and I assisted in removing some of the
President's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown
on his leg?
Dr. CURTIS. A small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is
bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous
catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then
tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with
sutures.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you do anything else to the President following
that operative procedure?
Dr. CURTIS. Then, the initial cutdown that I started was ineffective
and infiltrated into the tissues. I think possibly I cut the knot
too close of the purse string ligature, so I was getting ready to do
another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other
leg, it wouldn't be necessary.
Mr. SPECTER. What other action did you take, if any, in the treatment
of the President?
Dr. CURTIS. That's all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you remain in the trauma room No. 1?
Dr. CURTIS. I did until he was pronounced dead.
Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room
while you were there?
Dr. CURTIS. My attention was focused on what I was doing, so I wasn't
aware--I knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all
I could see. I mean, I knew that a tracheotomy was being performed.
Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors were present there at that time?
Dr. CURTIS. I know that Dr. Perry was there and I know Dr. Baxter was
there, and then I recall Dr. Jenkins from the Anesthesia Department,
and Dr. Seldin, Dr. Crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors--I could
think of others probably, but I can't remember now.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other nurses who were there?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I can't--I wasn't paying attention to the nurses.
Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your presence near President Kennedy,
did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body?
Dr. CURTIS. After I had completed the cutdown, I went around to the
right side of the patient and saw the head wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there?
Dr. CURTIS. Oh--fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial
contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the President?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. As I said before, I noticed the mass in the
pre-tracheal area.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "as you said before," you mean in our
previous discussions prior to going on the record here?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you state now for the record what you did notice
with respect to the tracheal area?
Dr. CURTIS. The President's head was extended or hyperextended and I
noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked
like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. How big was that hematoma?
Dr. CURTIS. Oh, I think it was 5 cm. in size.
Mr. SPECTER. What color was it?
Dr. CURTIS. It had no color--there was just skin overlying it.
Mr. SPECTER. What did it appear to be?
Dr. CURTIS. Probably a hematoma.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's
throat?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it?
Dr. CURTIS. I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and
that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about
an opening on his neck?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report concerning your activity
on the President?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your
work with the President?
Dr. CURTIS. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal
Government about your participation in treating President Kennedy
before today?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that we went on the record here with the
court reporter, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning
the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which I would
ask you on the record?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the
record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter
started taking notes?
Dr. CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful to the Commission in its work?
Dr. CURTIS. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Curtis, for coming here today.
Dr. CURTIS. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DR. FOUAD A. BASHOUR
The testimony of Dr. Fouad A. Bashour was taken at 1:15 p.m., on March
25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Fouad Bashour has appeared
pursuant to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with the Commission's
inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the
President, including medical treatment received at Parkland Hospital,
and Dr. Bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the
emergency room.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Bashour, would you mind
rising and then raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. BASHOUR. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. BASHOUR. F-o-u-a-d (spelling), Fouad A. Bashour.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Mr. BASHOUR. I am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. I
am associate professor of medicine.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine here?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified at the present time?
Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; I don't have my board because I am not yet a
citizen. I will be taking my citizenship this year, I hope, and then I
will be able to sit for the board.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of
President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors'
dining room, and we went directly to the President Kennedy room.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?
Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Seldin and myself--we left the dining room and went
right straight down to the President's room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Seldin's first name?
Dr. BASHOUR. Donald.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is his specialty, if any?
Dr. BASHOUR. He's chairman of the department of medicine and professor
of medicine. He is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in
renal diseases.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine
involve?
Dr. BASHOUR. Kidney diseases.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin accompany you into the emergency room where
President Kennedy was located?
Dr. BASHOUR. We went to the room together and then I was left alone
because this is a problem--a heart problem.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Seldin remain in the room with you?
Dr. BASHOUR. Well, he came and stayed for--he just left the room after
we came in.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did he stay in the room?
Dr. BASHOUR. A few seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in the room when you arrived?
Dr. BASHOUR. When I arrived, Dr. Kemp Clark was doing the cardiac
massage on the President, Dr. Jenkins was in charge of controlling
artificial respiration of the President, and the probably there were
some three or four--I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be
at the time you arrived?
Dr. BASHOUR. The President was lying on the stretcher, the head wound
was massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time
the President had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated,
his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no
pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were
cold.
Then, we attached the scope--the cardioscope and there was a flip,
this was probably artificial. Upon stopping the cardiac machine, there
was no cardiac activity. That means the heart was standing still. We
continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so
the President was declared dead shortly thereafter.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was he declared dead?
Dr. BASHOUR. Well, according to my notes, we said here, "Declared dead
about 12:55," or so.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general
approximation?
Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; approximation.
Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, Dr.
Bashour?
Dr. BASHOUR. On the scope--some change in the baseline of the scope.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that indicate some activity in the President's heart?
Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir; not necessarily.
Mr. SPECTER. What else could have accounted for the flip besides that?
Dr. BASHOUR. Anything extraneous could have accounted for that.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you require a number of flips before you inquire if
there is heart activity?
Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it depends on the configuration of the flip--if the
flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity--it shows cardiac activity.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or
not?
Dr. BASHOUR. It wasn't, as far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. That is your field, is it not, you read those flips?
Dr. BASHOUR. Well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw
was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity?
Dr. BASHOUR. As a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was
nothing.
Mr. SPECTER. And who is "he"?
Dr. BASHOUR. Dr. Clark, who was doing the cardiac massage.
Mr. SPECTER. What else was done to the President, if anything, in
addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived
on the scene?
Dr. BASHOUR. Really, as far as I know, it was the end of the
scene--nothing was done afterward.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you
have just described?
Dr. BASHOUR. No; I did not observe any wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the front part of the
President's neck upon your arrival?
Dr. BASHOUR. The only thing--it was covered with the endotracheal
tube--I did not really pay attention to it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before
the tracheotomy was performed?
Dr. BASHOUR. No; I came after everything was done to him.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I show you a group of papers heretofore marked
as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I call your attention to the
photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you
on November 22, 1963, at 4:45 p.m., is that your report?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that in fact your signature?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein the essence of what
you observed and what you know about this matter?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government
prior to today about your treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. BASHOUR. There was a security officer or something called me on the
phone one day and said did I write any note besides this note on the
chart, and I said "No." I don't know his name even.
Mr. SPECTER. What note was he referring to?
Dr. BASHOUR. This note here.
Mr. SPECTER. He asked you if you wrote what?
Dr. BASHOUR. Other notes than this.
Mr. SPECTER. If you had any other notes?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other notes other than the one I have
just shown you?
Dr. BASHOUR. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service agent ask you anything else other
than that?
Dr. BASHOUR. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the
Federal Government on any occasion prior to today?
Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And, did you and I talk for a few minutes about the type
of questions I would be asking you during this deposition?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have given me on the
record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told
me before she arrived?
Dr. BASHOUR. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, will you give me just an outline of your educational
background, Doctor?
Dr. BASHOUR. I got my baccalaureate from French Government in
1941--first part. I got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics
and science in 1942, I got my B.A. degree in 1944 from the American
University of Beirut, my M.D. degree in 1949, and my Ph. D. in 1957
from the University of Minnesota. I came back to this country in 1959
from the American University of Beirut, as an instructor, and from 1959
to 1963 I jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate
professor in February 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think will be
helpful in any way to the President's Commission?
Dr. BASHOUR. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Bashour.
Dr. BASHOUR. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN
The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in
response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition
taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being
asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if
any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland
Hospital and his treatment here.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and
raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. AKIN. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?
Dr. AKIN. Gene Coleman Akin.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?
Dr. AKIN. Medicine.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice
medicine?
Dr. AKIN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any specialty?
Dr. AKIN. Anesthesiology.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you board-certified?
Dr. AKIN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board-certification?
Dr. AKIN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. AKIN. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical
school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas,
internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at
Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962.
Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school?
Dr. AKIN. 1961.
Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor?
Dr. AKIN. Thirty-four.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President
John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. AKIN. Briefly.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state how you came to be called into the case?
Dr. AKIN. I was notified while I was on duty in the operating suite of
the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency
room. President Kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought
to the emergency room, and I immediately went down the back elevator
to the emergency room to see if I could be of assistance, and when I
walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. President Kennedy still
had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the
connector from this to the Bird respirator was removed. The anesthesia
machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and Dr. Jenkins
connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed
there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the
tracheotomy, at which time I connected the breathing tubes from the
anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while Dr.
Jenkins controlled the ventilation with 100-percent oxygen from the
anesthesia machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist Dr. Jenkins then in his work?
Dr. AKIN. Only insofar as I held the endotracheal connector in place
into the tracheotomy tube.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors in addition to Dr. Jenkins then were present,
if any, at the time of your arrival?
Dr. AKIN. You mean everybody in the room? I don't know that I can name
all of them.
Mr. SPECTER. Name as many as you can, if you will, please?
Dr. AKIN. There was Dr. Jenkins, there was myself for a brief period,
there was Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Jackie Hunt--they left shortly after
arriving. I heard later that they had gone across the hall to Governor
Connally's room to assist him; Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter,
Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Bob McClelland, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Ron Jones,
was there. I think, shortly after I arrived, and Dr. Fouad Bashour
came in from cardiology; Dr. Don Seldin walked in briefly, I can't
remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs--I can't
remember that. This is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days
later we went through the same business over again and I am liable to
say that there was somebody there that worked on Kennedy that actually
had worked on Oswald, because I was on the Oswald mess too. This is all
that I remember were positively there. I remember their being there,
but there were others that I am not sure of.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition?
Dr. AKIN. He looked moribund in my medical judgment.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first
saw him?
Dr. AKIN. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the
cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of
this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across
with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the
right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain
substance extruding.
Mr. SPECTER. Returning to the wound which you first described, can you
state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw
it?
Dr. AKIN. I don't think I could--this is about all I noticed. I noticed
this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he
sustained the wound. My attention, because of my standing on the right
side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon
directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern.
Mr. SPECTER. And as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe
whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the
portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy?
Dr. AKIN. It was slightly ragged around the edges.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you said that----
Dr. AKIN. No powder burns; I didn't notice any powder burns.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without
regards to the tracheotomy which was being started?
Dr. AKIN. It looked--it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. It
was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you mean when you just made your reference to the
academic aspect with the wound, Dr. Akin?
Dr. AKIN. Well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that
this might have been an entrance wound. I immediately thought it could
also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile
that made the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What would be the circumstances on which it might be one
or the other?
Dr. AKIN. Well, if the President had been shot with a low velocity
missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an
entrance wound, is that what you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. AKIN. If, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military
type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an
exit wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an
exit wound with respect to the rifle?
Dr. AKIN. Well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military
rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or
steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted
when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet
leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but
like I said, I didn't devote much time to conjecture about this.
Mr. SPECTER. How much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot
wounds, doctor?
Dr. AKIN. I can't really give you, say, how many cases a week I see of
this. Most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation
with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot
injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller
caliber--.22 caliber to .38 caliber, and most of them are not injured
in a through and through fashion. In other words, I don't see too many
exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and
don't leave it. They usually stay in it, so consequently I could not be
considered an expert in exit wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into
Parkland Hospital, would you say?
Dr. AKIN. What I have just described, you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. AKIN. Yes; I think so. Most of the people seem to be shot with
cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons.
Mr. SPECTER. Would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you
have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at
Parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen
on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen?
Dr. AKIN. I think so, except there is one difference--I am not
ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so I am not very often the
first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. When I
see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who
lived to make it to the operating room. We, I'm sure, have a lot of
people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room,
and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and I never
see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that I never
have seen. They might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality
ammunition, and I would not have seen them.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of
facts which I will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an
opinion, if you are able to formulate one. Assume that the President
was struck by a 6.5 mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of
approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was
approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the weapon. Assume further that
the bullet entered the President's body in the upper right posterior
thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm.
from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of
the right mastoid process. Assume further that the missile traveled
through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating
either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back
and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura
cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited
from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have
described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound
of exit under the factors that I have just outlined to you?
Dr. AKIN. As far as I know, it is perfectly compatible from what you
have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring
the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of
the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck?
Mr. SPECTER. The anterior strap muscles of the neck.
Dr. AKIN. It's a matter of clarification because there are no strap
muscles posterior, by my terminology. Yes, this is perfectly consistent
with what I know about, or what I have been told by military experts,
concerning high velocity missile injuries.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis of your information from the
military experts you just referred to?
Dr. AKIN. Military rifle demonstrations when I was a senior student
at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. We took a brief two day tour
there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe
below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound
in the back of the head?
Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's
head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and
skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the President's
clothes?
Dr. AKIN. I noticed them.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see
what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet?
Dr. AKIN. No; I didn't. The front of the chest was uncovered, the pants
had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only
article of clothing I noticed in particular was his back corset.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the back corset which
you just mentioned?
Dr. AKIN. It had been loosened and was just lying loose.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was?
Dr. AKIN. The only portion I saw was the front portion of the corset
and it was about, I'd say, 5 or 6 inches in width, and made out of
some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any Ace bandage strapping the President's
buttocks area?
Dr. AKIN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that area of his anatomy visible to you?
Dr. AKIN. Not his buttocks, he was lying supine.
Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge?
Dr. AKIN. Not while I was there.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you there altogether, Dr. Akin?
Dr. AKIN. Oh, probably 15, maybe 20--perhaps 20 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when he was pronounced to be dead?
Dr. AKIN. Yes--I didn't leave until Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins had
mutually agreed that nothing else could be done.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was he pronounced dead?
Dr. AKIN. 1300 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
Dr. AKIN. Massive gunshot injury to the brain--primary cause.
Mr. SPECTER. You have already described some of the treatment which was
performed on the President; could you supplement that by describing
what else was done for the President?
Dr. AKIN. Other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial
respiration, brief external cardiac massage--I don't know. Anything
else I said would be hearsay, and I understand that he did receive some
cortisone. He received so much Ringer's lactate, but this is not of my
own personal knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. How many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on
the President, Dr. Akin?
Dr. AKIN. Probably two.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in
connection with your observations of the President or any opinions you
formed in connection with what you saw?
Dr. AKIN. You mean as to how he was injured?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, as to how he was injured.
Dr. AKIN. Well, no; not really because I didn't have any opinions,
necessarily. Any speculation that I might have done about how he was
injured was just that, it was just speculation. I didn't form an
opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and
where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so I didn't
have any opinions. It was my immediate assumption that when I saw the
extent of the head wound, I assumed at that point that he had probably
been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage
that had been done. The same thing happened to his head and would
happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity
missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opinion as to the direction that the
bullet hit his head?
Dr. AKIN. I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the
exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side
of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I
didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the
Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. AKIN. You mean concerning this matter?
Mr. SPECTER. Concerning this matter.
Dr. AKIN. I think I was probably interviewed by a member of the Secret
Service some weeks ago.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him?
Dr. AKIN. Virtually the same thing, as I recall--I didn't make as long
a statement, he just wanted to know where I was and what I did and I
told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only time you have been interviewed by any
representative of the Federal Government concerning this matter prior
to today?
Dr. AKIN. Yes; as far as I can remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And before I started to take your deposition, did you and
I have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and
the questions I would ask you?
Dr. AKIN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me about the same information, exactly
the same information you have put on the record here this morning?
Dr. AKIN. To my knowledge; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
assistance to the President's Commission in their inquiry?
Dr. AKIN. No; I don't think so. I don't know exactly if there is any
disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people
who have testified, so I don't know. This is all I saw.
Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. Thank you very much, Dr. Akin.
Dr. AKIN. That's all right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS
The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March
24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present,
having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in
connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects
of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President
Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of
events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if
anything, concerning that medical attention.
With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask
you to rise and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. PETERS. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. PETERS. Paul Conrad Peters.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?
Dr. PETERS. Doctor of medicine.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline for me briefly your educational
background?
Dr. PETERS. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington,
Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950,
and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took
my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I
took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from
1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F.
Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was
regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since
July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern
Medical School.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters?
Dr. PETERS. I am certified by the American Board of Urology--1960.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical services to
President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. PETERS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating
to your arriving on the scene where he was?
Dr. PETERS. As I just gave you a while ago?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. PETERS. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing
material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in
the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot
and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent
of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I
thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he
would probably be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the
emergency room to see if I could render assistance.
Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency
room?
Dr. PETERS. Well, could I ask a question or two?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
Dr. PETERS. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that
correct?
Mr. SPECTER. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr.
Peters.
Dr. PETERS. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got
there, I really don't know for certain.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived?
Dr. PETERS. When I arrived the following people I noted were present
in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first
thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the
stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be
placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in
shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and
that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones
was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do
to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know
it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he
and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of
tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then
helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into
the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any others present at that time, before you go
on as to what aid you rendered?
Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico----
Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present?
Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that
time?
Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a
moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President
and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone
who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I
don't remember his name.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley?
Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was,
because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which
was done.
Mr. SPECTER. He requested that.
Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because
he was an Addisonian.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language?
Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex
which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain
hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these
hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the
individual may succumb.
Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal
physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?
Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids
because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time?
Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time,
but they were coming in and out.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the
best of your recollection?
Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?
Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or
have you now given me everyone you can recall?
Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I
walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark
also came in during the maneuvering.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative
procedures?
Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I
believe, came in.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come in?
Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.
Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and
a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was
determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the
wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling
sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr.
Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put
it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest,
and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right
side?
Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what else was done for the President?
Dr. PETERS. About the same time--there was a question of whether he
really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his
pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received
a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic
bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight
fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage?
Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that
he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an
additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite
interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an
ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis.
I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at
the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral
pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type
of brace he was wearing?
Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.
Mr. SPECTER. How thick was it?
Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.
Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick?
Dr. PETERS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it?
Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.
Mr. SPECTER. It encompassed his midsection?
Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess
about 8 to 11 inches.
Mr. SPECTER. In width?
Dr. PETERS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the
lower part of his chest?
Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his
chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he
had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should
open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the
tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to
apparatus for assisting his respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart
massage?
Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had
been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had
observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared
to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart
massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done,
and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct
massage of the heart itself.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?
Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of
the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the
question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there
was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately
began external chest compression.
Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any?
Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes
were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly,
and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to
administer fluid and blood which he did receive.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given
the President?
Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?
Dr. PETERS. That's correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made?
Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can
tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that.
Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room,
present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time
there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy,
the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others
by that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain?
Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest
first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those
people I have just named.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to
leave?
Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he
thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention
to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked
around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's
wound?
Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been
interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I
noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a
large defect in the occiput.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you notice in the occiput?
Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area
that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain
loss in the area.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this
area below here?
Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately
following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once
or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted
the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity
missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of
exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they?
Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or
twice--that was my question at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?
Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there.
Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically?
Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed
it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his
neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?
Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by
Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the
wound on his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of
President Kennedy?
Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any
notes of any sort?
Dr. PETERS. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?
Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the
centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal
Government about this matter prior to today?
Dr. PETERS. No; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you
and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and
the questions that I would ask you?
Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew
the general nature of the testimony which I would give.
Mr. SPECTER. From the discussion?
Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by
Mr. Rankin.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this
room today before the court reporter came in?
Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?
Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the
President.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very
much obliged to you.
Dr. PETERS. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.
The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40
p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex.,
by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is
present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear
at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's
Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy,
including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.
Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of
the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at
Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement
of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and
raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this
President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please, for the record?
Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?
Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Texas?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified?
Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go?
Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would,
please.
Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of
Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school
in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University
of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at
William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served
24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer.
I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif.
Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a
3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have
been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern
Medical School.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were
called into that matter?
Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins
approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and
asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room
to the emergency room, which I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room,
approximately?
Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now
referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J.
Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the
reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit
No. 1," for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr.
Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted
to Mr. Price?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy.
Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and
correct?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by
you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?
Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer
the last question.
Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between
12:40 and 12:45.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived?
Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr.
Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at
the same time that I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other people present, such as nurses?
Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't
say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't
remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too,
with Mrs. Kennedy.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from
being with Governor Connally?
Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that.
Mr. SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because
Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty
and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico
went to President Kennedy.
Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?
Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent
when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there
was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no
spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he
made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved
around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia
machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to
hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen,
I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain
substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the
cranial wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the
cranial wound?
Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from
the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the
cranium was entirely missing.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand
side of the head?
Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.
Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection?
Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time--really.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the
large area of missing skull?
Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at
that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the
cranium.
Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole
below the portion of missing skull?
Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see
this.
Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr.
Clark?
Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it
and I didn't notice it.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.
Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if
you recollect?
Dr. GIESECKE. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about
these things--I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's
neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?
Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy,
and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy
wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the
endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy
tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior
chest tube.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?
Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during
the time you were there?
Dr. GIESECKE. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing
a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic
electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the
skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the
wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there
were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where
the President was?
Dr. GIESECKE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to?
Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally
was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the
operating room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?
Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me--I had taken my equipment
with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that
Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the
elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on
the first elevator and I caught the second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator?
Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved
off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set
up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from
the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe
operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with
him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to
questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and
proceeded to induce an anesthesia.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection
with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr.
Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about
this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, Dr.
Giesecke?
Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins
and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it
with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the
American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr.
Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which
is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then
discussed it with the Secretary of--may I retract that. That's about
it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of
the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any
representative of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here
who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented"?
Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to
be legitimate.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything?
Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other
notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence
it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other
information written down except what I had already given."
Mr. SPECTER. And what had you already given--that letter report?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the
Federal Government about this matter?
Dr. GIESECKE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record,
did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition
proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the
record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?
Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few
minutes before we started.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?
Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.
Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.
Dr. GIESECKE. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT
The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on
March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present,
and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all
the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the
medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial
Hospital.
Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her
deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact
that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.
Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. HUNT. I do, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?
Dr. HUNT. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling).
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession?
Dr. HUNT. Medical doctor.
Mr. SPECTER. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the
State of Texas?
Dr. HUNT. I am.
Mr. SPECTER. And in what year were you so licensed?
Dr. HUNT. 1950.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. HUNT. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine
in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of
pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology,
which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time?
Dr. HUNT. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward board certification?
Dr. HUNT. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid
to the late President Kennedy?
Dr. HUNT. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your
being called into the case?
Dr. HUNT. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology
department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins,
that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and
Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and
checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took
it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been
intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to
the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by
a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were
properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt?
Dr. HUNT. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry--quite a number of others--I just
can't remember who was there today.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any nurses present?
Dr. HUNT. Yes--I don't know the names of any of them.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of
President Kennedy?
Dr. HUNT. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes
were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I
assumed that he was in essence dead.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency
room?
Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would have been--I would think near 12:45,
but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't
remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity
to observe the President in the way which you have just described?
Dr. HUNT. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, ma'am.
Dr. HUNT. A minute--2 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other observations at that time?
Dr. HUNT. No--other than that everyone was working on him. They were
doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and
others were being started.
Mr. SPECTER. I.V.'s?
Dr. HUNT. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was
breathing for him.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by
that?
Dr. HUNT. Ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea
attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by
manual compression of the bag, ventilating him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds on the President?
Dr. HUNT. I actually did not see the wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time see a wound to the head?
Dr. HUNT. No; I didn't see it.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing
the head wound?
Dr. HUNT. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great
deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I
was on his left side.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body?
Dr. HUNT. I was about midbody actually, well, no--more at his shoulder,
when I leaned over to look at him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck?
Dr. HUNT. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that
because I assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there
was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of his throat when you first
observed him, if you did observe it at all?
Dr. HUNT. I couldn't--I don't know--I can't say. You mean, as far as
inside or outside?
Mr. SPECTER. Outside.
Dr. HUNT. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's
hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area.
Mr. SPECTER. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his
throat?
Dr. HUNT. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his
throat?
Dr. HUNT. No--that's not to say that they were not doing one.
Mr. SPECTER. What else was done for the President other than that which
you have already described?
Dr. HUNT. Well, let's see, I don't--as far as actual observation,
I didn't--other things were done--I left at this time and went to
Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy?
Dr. HUNT. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most.
Mr. SPECTER. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left?
Dr. HUNT. No; he had not.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go when you left the President's room?
Dr. HUNT. Straight across to operating room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived
there?
Dr. HUNT. Governor Connally was present there and----
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived?
Dr. HUNT. Red Duke--I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others
were. There were three or four.
Mr. SPECTER. What action was being taken with respect to Governor
Connally upon your arrival there?
Dr. HUNT. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had
one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an I.V.
going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking
other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his
leg, I think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up
to surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do on that occasion?
Dr. HUNT. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did
was to look at the Governor--I took his pulse and he spoke to me and
said something, and noted his color.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the Governor say to you?
Dr. HUNT. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real
specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought
type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I
stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who
has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I
happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go
upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in
and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe
the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad
that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should
have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table
down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs,
but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that
critical.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate any further with the treatment of
Governor Connally?
Dr. HUNT. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room
where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from
our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would
come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a
different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor--Dr.
Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the
surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you go upstairs, by what route?
Dr. HUNT. I don't know--I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating
rooms?
Dr. HUNT. Yes; there are four elevators.
Mr. SPECTER. But do those lead from the emergency rooms?
Dr. HUNT. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground
floor.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go
through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms?
Dr. HUNT. Yes; they can--they come up to these.
Mr. SPECTER. What route would they have to take to do this?
Dr. HUNT. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room
and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be a pretty long route, would it not?
Dr. HUNT. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces
even, but there are three elevators there.
Mr. SPECTER. What route did Governor Connally use?
Dr. HUNT. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that
comes down into the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from
the emergency area into the operating room?
Dr. HUNT. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up--they
usually use that one.
Mr. SPECTER. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room?
Dr. HUNT. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe there at that time?
Dr. HUNT. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there
earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment
in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the
electrocardiogram.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room?
Dr. HUNT. I don't know--it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5
minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall--I
didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in
and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and
stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until
they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or
5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and
it had arrived and been there a few minutes--3 or 4 minutes before we
were ready to take him upstairs.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was going on in the President's room when you
returned there?
Dr. HUNT. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at
least 10 people, possibly there were more--I'm not real sure, but
there were still--at that time there were, I know, at least three
anesthesiologists in there--Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke,
and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they still working on the President at that time?
Dr. HUNT. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay on that occasion?
Dr. HUNT. Just, oh, a minute--just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's
eye and let him know I was there and going out.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever return to the President's room?
Dr. HUNT. No; I don't believe I did--no; I'm sure I didn't, because I
came on upstairs with Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's
operation?
Dr. HUNT. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal
Government prior to today?
Dr. HUNT. No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written report of your participation in
the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy?
Dr. HUNT. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I
think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements
for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that--I did not
appear before them.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports yourself?
Dr. HUNT. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your
participation?
Dr. HUNT. None whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down
the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a
brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition?
Dr. HUNT. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And the questions I would ask you?
Dr. HUNT. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you have provided on the
record the same as you told me before the written deposition started?
Dr. HUNT. Elaborated somewhat.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
aid to the Commission in its investigation?
Dr. HUNT. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt.
Dr. HUNT. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER
The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present
in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken
in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking
into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President
and the care he received at Parkland Hospital.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand
up and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. SALYER. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the
Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the
taking of testimony?
Dr. SALYER. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today
without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have
a right to, if you wish?
Dr. SALYER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that right, is that right?
Dr. SALYER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. SALYER. Kenneth Everett Salyer.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?
Dr. SALYER. Physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of
Texas?
Dr. SALYER. Yes; I am.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. SALYER. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree
at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a
first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you graduate from the University of
Kansas Medical School?
Dr. SALYER. 1962.
Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer?
Dr. SALYER. I am 27.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your
being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. SALYER. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation
on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that
day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to
neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room
to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that
the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the
emergency room and see what the situation was.
Mr. SPECTER. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was
present?
Dr. SALYER. Oh, I don't recall--I know that there were a room full of
doctors--I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?
Dr. SALYER. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I
remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob
McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene
Akin was there also--at that time, when I first came in.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you think of any others?
Dr. SALYER. No; I don't recall any others--there could have been some,
there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly
were a lot of nurses in there at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?
Dr. SALYER. No; I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived?
Dr. SALYER. It was critical.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds
he may have sustained?
Dr. SALYER. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of
some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right
temporal region--these were the two main wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat?
Dr. SALYER. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people--a
lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think
just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also
arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who?
Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also.
Mr. SPECTER. What is his name?
Dr. SALYER. Dr. Grossman--Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think,
briefly.
Mr. SPECTER. How long was he there?
Dr. SALYER. I couldn't say--I'm not sure he came in the room. I know
they were together--I cannot say that for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?
Dr. SALYER. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We
were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle
of blood.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the--is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?
Dr. SALYER. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I
remember him specifically because we were sort of working there
together on that.
Mr. SPECTER. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an
opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat.
Dr. SALYER. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your answer to that question?
Dr. SALYER. The answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing
around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in
the throat.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency
room where the President was situated?
Dr. SALYER. I really don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done for the President by way of treatment that
you observed?
Dr. SALYER. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some
external cardiac massage--he had I.V.'s--intravenous fluids going in a
number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him.
Mr. SPECTER. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer.
Dr. SALYER. I said--all of the many other measures that we
administered--I don't recall specifically some of the other details as
far as medications and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the head wound?
Dr. SALYER. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his
major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the
point of view that I could see him, and other than that--nothing other
than he did have a gaping scalp wound--cranial wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about
your observations of this matter?
Dr. SALYER. No one has.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid
to the President's Commission in its inquiry?
Dr. SALYER. No, I believe not.
Dr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer.
Dr. SALYER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE
The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March
25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in
response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken
because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the
doctors in attendance on President Kennedy.
Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order
creating the Presidential Commission?
Dr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution
setting forth the rules for taking depositions?
Dr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the
3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to
receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before
you appear to have your deposition taken?
Dr. WHITE. No, I want to have it taken now.
Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?
Dr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. WHITE. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. WHITE. Martin G. White.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. WHITE. M.D.--physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. WHITE. In this institution.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, please?
Dr. WHITE. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern
University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University
and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University.
Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Doctor?
Dr. WHITE. Twenty-five.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being
treated on November 22, 1963?
Dr. WHITE. I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were the circumstances of your being called into
the case?
Dr. WHITE. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the
emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was
brought into the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do in connection with the President's
treatment?
Dr. WHITE. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?
Dr. WHITE. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the
trauma room where he was treated.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wounds?
Dr. WHITE. No, I did not see any other.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?
Dr. WHITE. I did not look and did not observe any.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present while the President was being
treated?
Dr. WHITE. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to
be dead?
Dr. WHITE. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you leave?
Dr. WHITE. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere,
with the Governor, to be done.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White?
Dr. WHITE. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians
immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a
number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was
lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife,
Mrs. Kennedy.
Mr. SPECTER. And what doctors were present at the time you left the
room?
Dr. WHITE. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the
people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry
and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--I know they were there.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor who--what is his first name?
Dr. WHITE. William Zedelitz.
Mr. SPECTER. To what extent did he participate?
Dr. WHITE. I don't believe that he had any--I don't know what he did
other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by
just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with.
Mr. SPECTER. Is he an intern as you are?
Dr. WHITE. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present?
Dr. WHITE. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I
say--many people were there whose faces I can't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present?
Dr. WHITE. Yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, Jeanette, and
her last name--I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse
in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Doris Nelson?
Dr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Jeanette Standridge?
Dr. WHITE. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
help to the Commission?
Dr. WHITE. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming.
Dr. WHITE. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW
The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23,
1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present,
having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in
connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the
medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw
has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on
Governor Connally.
Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Dr. SHAW. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?
Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan
in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at
Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my
training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor,
Mich., July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened
subsequent to then?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form
subsequent to that date, please?
Dr. SHAW. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery,
August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas,
with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945,
when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United
States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of
operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until
June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the
Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. I am certified by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date
of certification--1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic
surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the
University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in
to care for the Governor, please?
Dr. SHAW. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school
from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is
approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past
the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard
under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on
to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President
had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the
medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other
medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in
dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that
Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I
proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived
at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and
Governor Connally had arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr.
Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency
room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David
Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the
open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy
dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had
been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of
the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about
partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle
had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was
running.
I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent
to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood, to be
available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been
alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the
Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to
be debrided and closed.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this,
of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about
right--but I have to refresh my memory.
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available on the record for you the
operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit
No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the records of Parkland
Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call
your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon,
under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor
Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by
you?
Dr. SHAW. It was.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as
to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. Which would be 1 p.m.?
Dr. SHAW. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. And what time did that operation conclude?
Dr. SHAW. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw,
directing your attention first to the wound on his back?
Dr. SHAW. When Governor Connally was examined, it was found that
there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and
approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right
posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. The arm pit.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the
nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound,
approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the
pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro
between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.
Mr. SPECTER. Define the pleura, please, Doctor, in lay language.
Dr. SHAW. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer
of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall,
diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body
containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds
which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a
wound of exit, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller
wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or
slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it
has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the
wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in
evaluating gunshot wounds?
Dr. SHAW. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and
wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience
was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time
that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period
of approximately a year.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total
number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?
Dr. SHAW. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds
seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a
thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the
point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the
Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?
Dr. SHAW. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the
trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact
that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.
Mr. SPECTER. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw----
Dr. SHAW. May I add one sentence there?
Mr. SPECTER. Please do.
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall
struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting
direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib.
The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth
rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib,
which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in
deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?
Dr. SHAW. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the
rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the
rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there
was very little in the way of deflection.
Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Dr. Shaw, I would like to call your
attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr.
Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his
deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you,
first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the
point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is
accurate?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider
to be quite accurate.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale,
or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that
characterization by picture?
Dr. SHAW. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say
that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting
of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a
centimeter and a half in length.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best
you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you
first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?
(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside,
showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of
the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of
Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it
was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here.
Off the record, just a minute.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called
my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly
depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the
nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a
little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which
would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position,
more in line with the actual position of the nipple.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does
that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor
Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?
Dr. SHAW. It does.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we
have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you
would, please?
Dr. SHAW. By the "X-1"?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.
(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in
drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point
of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation
on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two
wounds as I have shown on the other figure.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder
there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can
recollect it on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. This is right.
Mr. SPECTER. You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is
just about the size that it would have been on his body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.
Mr. SPECTER. In good scale to the body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in
terms of its absolute size?
Dr. SHAW. Five cm. it would be--about like that--do you want me to mark
that?
Mr. SPECTER. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.
Dr. SHAW. I'll just put "wound of exit."
Mr. SPECTER. Fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your
initials under it.
(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of
exit--actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.
Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on
the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through
Governor Connally's chest?
Dr. SHAW. It does.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in
further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?
Dr. SHAW. No. Again off the record?
Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that
the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit,
but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be
helpful to us?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful
by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you
performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for
him?
Dr. SHAW. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an
endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled
with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been
applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better
inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the
damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework
of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the
skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.
The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and
aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the
whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit
and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered
with a sterile towel.
First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the
wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in
a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and
subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the
bullet where the chest had been softened.
It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been
shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been
the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall
and to the underlying lung.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting
as secondary missiles"?
Dr. SHAW. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments
and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling
ball--they fly in all directions.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment
which you performed?
Dr. SHAW. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously
damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal
muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been
stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but
this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be
repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been
torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion
of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with
a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed
from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle
lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two
equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but
had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle
lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating
the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then
approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral
surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut.
Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the
anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.
Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma
in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into
the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the
surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly
caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress
suture No. 3 O chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close
this laceration from which blood was oozing.
Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined
but no injury was found.
The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in
the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded
into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than
necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in
the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these
tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth
intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted
sutures of No. O chromic gut.
The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then
approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The
laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with
No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous
tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the
lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up
through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was
marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with
interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin
was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.
Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin
surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging
the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this
wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and
the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration
in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the
laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted
vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into
the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape
and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the
operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and
Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the
right wrist and left thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the
right wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably
not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the
lower end of the right radius and I saw one large wound on the--I
guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small
wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr.
Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the
volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright
or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on
the dorsum.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led
you to that conclusion?
Dr. SHAW. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound
that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was
my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest,
that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we
go off the record?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness Dr. Shaw off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, let's go back on the record.
Dr. SHAW. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a
cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the
responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your
operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I
believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?
Dr. SHAW. Yes--Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room
before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was
scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a
compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand
that would need his attention.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that while we were off the record
here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible
angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation
to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which
you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural
position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view
of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning
and put on the record very much of the comments and observations
you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this
deposition has proceeded.
Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the
wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you
have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar
side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the
wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry
is smaller and the point of exit is larger.
Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your
thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller
point of exit on the wrist.
Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor
Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of
the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the
volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound
until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the
wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the
skin through which a missile had obviously passed.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your
recollection?
Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the
larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from
Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the
junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2
cm. in length.
Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you
observed?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that
would correspond with the wound I observed.
Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound
of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was
that perhaps that was the wound of exit?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor
Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the
attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion
would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact
with the anterior portion of the right chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound
on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry
because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the
dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in
trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into
a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the
wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the
chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the
arm wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard
the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not
be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of
a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were
sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting
either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the
elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary
motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an
angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving
toward his body.
Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position.
If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm
here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get
my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the
trajectory of the bullet into the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went
through the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one
bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the
wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the
point of entrance and which was the point of exit?
Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist
was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially
spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius,
fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled
out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment
of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left
thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing
through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile,
or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum
of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of
entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too
dissimilar in size.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the
size of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on
the dorsal aspect of the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was
about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but
I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed
you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the
wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the
size of fragments which remained in the femur.
Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this
wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential
manner----
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?
Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a
tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit
in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual
size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would
make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture
wound.
Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very
small fragment in the femur?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion
as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the
appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist,
and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that
the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought
that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a
fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving
that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the
wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through
the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the
characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?
Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could
be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking
his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had
never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question
of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had
that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be
as to which point was entry and which point was exit?
Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller
than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however,
if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and
this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as
to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean on the volar aspect?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here----
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more
bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the
wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the
fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in
carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.
Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the
volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?
Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass
through the wrist, but struck the wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you
postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did
not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit
from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I
would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the
thought that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at
it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the
wounds on the two sides of the wrist.
Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure--off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect
that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's
thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius,
that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and
tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's
attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is
reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine
bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which
was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was
from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you
would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the
situation?
Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment
which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.
Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial
side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial
side?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the
way through.
Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and
could have gone on through.
Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a
lot.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.
Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible--I
think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his
coat and no hole on this side----
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----
Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the
situation.
Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve--the
sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever
had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events
of the day he was shot?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this.
The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a
bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle
shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been
injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost
immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest.
He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he
stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?
Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot
before he felt this wound in his chest?
Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear--no,
wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he
doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He
only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard
three.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?
Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.
Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?
Dr. SHAW. Two shots.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was
hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from
hearing the rifle report.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he
was wounded by a second shot?
Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said
he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of
wounding to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard
President Kennedy say anything?
Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's
the only thing he told me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the
President say anything?
Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs.
Connally told me on that.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the
present time?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an
end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay
at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts
that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been
struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy,
assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per
second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a
distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President
Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and
exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor
Connally's chest in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by
the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the
position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly
possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues
of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found
on Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that
you found on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was
struck by one missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation
that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way
which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as
"Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this
diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet
then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to
dorsal?
Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is
one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify
about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and
the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that
would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.
Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked
on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be
inconsistent with your view of the situation?
Dr. SHAW. Yes--he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger
than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.
Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.
Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in
this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts
here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the
bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that
bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second
bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.
Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might
have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or
a second bullet which struck the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. That is true--as far as the wounds are concerned, this
theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of
the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one
bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?
Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of
the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a
period of--well if there were 5-1/2 seconds between the three shots,
there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time
to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is
hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on
the first occasion?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was
struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation,
depending entirely on how fast she reacted.
Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not
struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the
hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in
the wrist at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and
struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the
bottom of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives
of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?
Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a
member of the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret
Service man?
Dr. SHAW. Once.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?
Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this
transcript.
Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with
the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a
discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I
would ask you?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time
the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this
afternoon?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on
Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in
Commission Exhibit No. 392?
Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to
the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record
room of Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which
you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that
are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would
actually be hearsay.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.
Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions.
Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?
Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was
found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?
Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the
suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray
of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was
there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it
struck him?
Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert,
but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long
enough so that there might have been some tumbling.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?
Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there
might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical
puncture wound.
Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might
not have?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned
this or not.
Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have
been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed
through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the
surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.
Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words,
it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the
appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not
struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound.
Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the
bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a
tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.
Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some
tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps
the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle
of entry.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.
Dr. SHAW. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY
The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m.,
on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that
I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in
response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.
May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is
to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the
wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally,
and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying
concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that
we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the
purpose of our calling on you.
Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. GREGORY. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?
Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background, please?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana
University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed
5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana
University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an
interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I
assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic
surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the
Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board?
Dr. GREGORY. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic
Surgery; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified?
Dr. GREGORY. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of
Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the
treatment of gunshot wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began
with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus
occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the
U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our
service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my
experience is continuing.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds
you have had experience with?
Dr. GREGORY. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in
approximately 500 such missile wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have
occasion to treat Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your
call to treat the Governor?
Dr. GREGORY. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the
medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there
when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then
know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency
room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired
as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would
require my assistance.
I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from
the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the
confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of
Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward,
I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room
area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and
was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw
advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his
wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked
that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the
Governor's chest wound.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you have that conversation
with Dr. Shaw?
Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have
been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22.
Mr. SPECTER. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw?
Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Robert Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment
of Governor Connally in a general way?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that
the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was
his operation which took precedence over all others.
Mr. SPECTER. And, was that operation completed before your operation
commenced?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we
even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive
care.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor
Connally begin?
Dr. GREGORY. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock
p.m. on Friday, November 22.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how long did it last?
Dr. GREGORY. The better part of an hour--I should judge--45 to 50
minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation?
Dr. GREGORY. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr.
William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker.
Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw
him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell
us?
Dr. GREGORY. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been
taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed
in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the
very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his
general status at that time was quite satisfactory.
Mr. SPECTER. What observations did you have with respect to his wound
in the chest?
Dr. GREGORY. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and
draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to
observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it.
Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest,
the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on
the anterior surface.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?
Dr. GREGORY. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of
a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a
rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger
than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound
that you described as the wound of entry?
Dr. GREGORY. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the
time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area
probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the wound of entry or exit?
Dr. GREGORY. That's the wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the wound of entry?
Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify,
since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his
wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest
operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the
operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound
of the wrist, what did you then see?
Dr. GREGORY. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist,
which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay
about an inch and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a
little to the radial side of the wrist area.
There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a
centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this
wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length
and did not gape.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that?
Dr. GREGORY. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand.
Mr. SPECTER. And the volar is equivalent to what?
Dr. GREGORY. The palm surface of the hand.
Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the
wound of entry and exit on the wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the
debridement was carried out----
Mr. SPECTER. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate
that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision
all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign
objects.
In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been
carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the
fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through
the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect
which would indicate that it was a wound of exit?
Dr. GREGORY. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the
missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through
the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft
tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits
of fragments or portions of a bullet missile?
Dr. GREGORY. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic
fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows
in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these
were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic
in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for
further disposition.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge that they were first--flat, rather thin, and
that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of
an inch. They were very small.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds
to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the
Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments
which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet
missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot
escape certain ballistic implications in this business.
I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact
as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously,
if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore
more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material
or is jacketed in some way.
Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as
it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase
the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the
formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times
velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some
knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the
missile would be useful here too.
Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested
to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient
size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have
emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or
whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that
would be consistent with having virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet
emerge.
Dr. GREGORY. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by
X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered,
I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total
missile mass without reducing its volume greatly.
Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile
weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in
Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that
struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but
probably was distorted.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments
which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor?
Dr. GREGORY. No, not really, but it would have been very small--very
small.
Mr. SPECTER. What treatment or action did you take with respect to
treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory?
Dr. GREGORY. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a
decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional
manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference
to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments
of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured
radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire
limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your operative procedure?
Dr. GREGORY. That completed my operative procedure for that day for
Governor Connally--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor
at that time?
Dr. GREGORY. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just
described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect
of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have
disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass
through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the
superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An
X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in
his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have
produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed
to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to
reveal any wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of
a missile?
Dr. GREGORY. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm.
by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur,
that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have
accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his
thigh or a wound of that character.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect
of his thigh.
Dr. GREGORY. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in
diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the
thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my
part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in
the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever
he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage
but which was not resident in him.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken
to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately
the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general--round.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm.
missile?
Dr. GREGORY. I will have to guess--I don't know what dimension--of a
6.5-mm.--yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that
could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory. I now show you two typewritten pages which
are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392,
which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from
Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the
two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on
Governor Connally, where you are listed as the surgeon, and I ask
you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether
or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been
describing.
Dr. GREGORY. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to
be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my
operation on Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts contained in this report the same as
those to which you have testified here today?
Dr. GREGORY. I think they are--I hope so.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you
have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this
report on November 22, 1963?
Dr. GREGORY. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2
weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the
Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist
was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On
the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor
was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general
anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of
paris cast was applied at that time.
The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling,
and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin.
I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about
1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up
examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state.
I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in
the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another
examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again
the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were
considered to be satisfactory.
Now, I've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you
wish--
Mr. SPECTER. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you
are thinking that through.
Dr. GREGORY. All right.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the
record.)
Mr. SPECTER. All right, Dr. Gregory.
Dr. GREGORY. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to
Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray,
found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a
new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again
came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory
healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of
treatment, was discontinued.
At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he
wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate
may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery
of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand.
I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will
have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time
anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That
will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet
unanticipated symptom.
I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in
Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the
point of view of recovery from his chest wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are
a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show
these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number
assigned to reports.
I am going to ask the Court Reporter to mark this particular copy as
Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1.
(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for
identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1,
whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. This one does not.
Mr. SPECTER. In what respect?
Dr. GREGORY. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist
on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal
surface of the forearm in my view--in my opinion--and the reverse holds
for the wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be,
Doctor Gregory?
Dr. GREGORY. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit,
and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the
point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond
with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?
Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately
depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would
be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry,
as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and
it may not be correct.
Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this
sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the
Governor's wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with
their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry
in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I
recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted,
and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.
Mr. SPECTER. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry
to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar
aspect?
Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they
do; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond
with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of
entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it
actually existed.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a
seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect
to what action is described on the seated man?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the
several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single
missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of
the wounds which are shown.
Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted
on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that
the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very
simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees,
and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward,
without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor
in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into
this same trajectory.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional
opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which
you have described on Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons.
One of these--is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the
various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being
at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of
the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least
destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where
the bullet apparently expended itself.
Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?
Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw,
and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was
literally shattered by the missile.
We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency
to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered
was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred
in the radius--the forearm.
Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the
velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony
portions?
Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity
with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the
amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the
thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot
by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and
the second one striking the back side of his wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these
reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--I'll qualify that--a high
velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into
the wound which it creates.
I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr.
Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic
material was found in the chest wound.
An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was
carried into the wound of the wrist.
I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile
striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you
to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a
single high velocity bullet?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile
wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting
calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone
fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the
part.
I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right
forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it
struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a
missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck
his wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile
had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet
per second?
Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--2,000 feet per second.
Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that
strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a
missile of any mass as well.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet
per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the
distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250
feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the
consequences would be on that wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle
wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer
range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of
155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a
similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr.
Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional
intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this
effect--assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile
directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of
approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from
a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a
6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of
the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his
body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the
President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back
of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described?
Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can
formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this
situation?
Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about
it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply
of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this
sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that
is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through
President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been
distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble.
Now, if you like, I will define that for you.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?
Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component
of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First,
there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In
order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary
motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with
the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is
literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile
should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop
it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile
usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as
a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected
to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of
entry in Governor Connally's back.
These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the
reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as
though it had never struck anything except him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's
back?
Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to
operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he
carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him
about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.
Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would
not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was
the initial impact of that missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that
my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have
gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor
Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile
could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and
have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit
on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the
thigh which you described.
Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to
be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter
prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly
identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave
to Mr. Warren on those occasions?
Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in
much less detail.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and
me about these matters, from the Federal Government?
Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the
assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that about?
Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had
been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might
use for ballistic analysis.
I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was
properly identified.
Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to
transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us
with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have
answered questions on all during the course of this deposition?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the
Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same
general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about
here today?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?
Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had
with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his
subsequent recovery and none other.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.
Dr. GREGORY. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES
The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March
23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this
session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires,
that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant
to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission
on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts
relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor
Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared
here today in response to a letter of request from the President's
Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which
he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on
Governor Connally.
Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's
Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. SHIRES. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?
Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?
Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of
Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in
Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas,
Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts
Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency--Parkland
Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the
United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval
Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda,
Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship
_Haven_--do you want staff positions?
Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well.
Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University
of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant
Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of
Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?
Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it
was a premedical 3 years--it was 1944.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree?
Dr. SHIRES. 1948.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified?
Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for
President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred.
I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical
Association.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and
services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you
were called into this case?
Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to
Parkland Hospital, it was determined--well--all aid was given to the
President that was available, and it was determined that Governor
Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor
Connally was to the chest.
Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery--I don't need to tell their
titles--you will have all that?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes--correct.
Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally,
instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the
status of the President and also the Governor.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist
in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?
Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative
procedures on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in
progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement
were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of
Governor Connally's chest wound?
Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided
and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very
good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being
prepared for surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his
back?
Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his
chest?
Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time--later, but not at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the
wound on his back and on his chest?
Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large
part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the
wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them,
had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial
appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement,
so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I
first saw them.
Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from
giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of
exit?
Dr. SHIRES. They would--really.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the
hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?
Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and
although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with
the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of
the wrist which looked like a missile wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of
entry or the point of exit?
Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1
cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower
third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity
came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm.
bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration
of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little
soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound
of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it
appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound
or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had
subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that
time?
Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray
and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue
damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this
small fragment.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that
fragment?
Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might
weigh in grains?
Dr. SHIRES. In grains--a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a
grain--very small.
Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole
which you described in the thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and
weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may
create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a
relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.
Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ?
Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle,
irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel
alloy wire and removable sutures.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did
to Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start?
Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. The operation that you were concerned with?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have
started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end?
Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it--about 20 minutes later.
Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the
operation?
Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don
Patman.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified
heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of
Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor
Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record,
dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you
whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative
procedures on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does.
Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have
heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what
you did?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on
Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?
Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount--postoperative care was of the
essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and
fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of
postoperative--I don't know how much of this you want--in other words,
he had clotting defects--I don't know whether you want to take this
down--I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?
Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description--perhaps, I will
direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it.
First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?
Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every
2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8
hours at a stretch.
Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him?
Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks--never less than
three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.
Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the
hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it
was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial
saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the
injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown
having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids
while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the
saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics,
anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?
Dr. SHIRES. Do I?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he
really requires at the moment is the bone--the orthopedic followup,
which incidentally is also completely healed.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have
marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr.
Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention
first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor
Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the
exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of
the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with
your observations of Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing,
would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond
with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with
the wounds on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?
Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's
injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from
surgery, was the apparent position that he was in in the car, which
would explain one missile producing all three wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion?
Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery--this was the 22d, late in the
afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the
Governor's position?
Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had
turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see
what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this,
that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit.
I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a
bullet. I forgot about that.
Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes--4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the
events.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the occasion for your conversation with him?
Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was
reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy,
since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively
in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.
Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis?
Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn
blue.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after
he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the
second day post-operatively.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before
the wound?
Dr. SHIRES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was
suffering from lack of oxygen?
Dr. SHIRES. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen.
He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen
could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected
his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not
last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from
the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he
recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he
said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and
how it went as closely as you can recount it now?
Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion,
Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she
related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating
to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he
couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and
admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the
whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers
hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot--he remembers turning to
the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought
as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us,"
and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until
he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of
that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several
hours later.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?
Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say--he didn't comment on it at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?
Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did--no.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?
Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if
I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a
firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did
too--thought it was a gun--I believe he did too.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing
President Kennedy say anything?
Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President
Kennedy said anything?
Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some
things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having
uttered a word.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect
that her husband had been shot and--well, that was really the essence
of it. It wasn't phrased that way.
Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence--what did Governor Connally
say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number
two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he
turned--those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?
Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right
and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did he feel himself receive a shot?
Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his
wrist?
Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did.
Mr. SPECTER. How about feeling anything in his thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his
recollections on the day of the assassination?
Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he
was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them--apparently he
remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the
assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did he say to you at any other time?
Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that
happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he
was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was
after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing--he
was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the
cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and,
of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his
recollection of the things on the day of the assassination?
Dr. SHIRES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with
Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other
than that which you have already testified about?
Dr. SHIRES. No--those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't
remember any others, except--well, no--most of the others were--we
were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for
recovery and that sort of thing.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your
professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor
Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by
the same bullet?
Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably
one missile, one bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that?
Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory--as we were reconstructing the
events in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as
best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.
Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those
calculations?
Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?
Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it,
I'm sure they did--it was before I got there.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it
as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing.
Everyone was under the impression this was one missile--through and
through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three
teams who had a different point of view?
Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could
have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging
from his chest and the second going into his wrist?
Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so
variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which
it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of
combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to
state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of
the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being
a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and
the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160
to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President
Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck,
and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his
chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that
would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so
distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was
hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure
5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right
and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is
purely conjecture, of course.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that
is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy
and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude
that it was not the same bullet?
Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been--purely from the
standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.
Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally
necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest,
entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in
order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to
postulate turning by the Governor?
Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory--I suppose not.
I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet
was fired.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45
degrees?
Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as
his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the
chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was
right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back
of the wrist, or how?
Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.
Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in
order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?
Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words,
in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to
have his right arm raised up, next to his chest.
Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it
not?
Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.
Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?
Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely
he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn,
whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been
sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand.
It's just a question of which side is up.
Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be
down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting
position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in
towards his chest area?
Dr. SHIRES. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done
to the rib?
Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were
in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?
Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a
small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw
saw before I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any
knowledge of that?
Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during
the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that
procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to
whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile
that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body,
assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000
feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the
end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole
in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the
underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had
to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then
it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did
and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small
fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin
in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit
Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and
do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that
I have just described for you?
Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?
Dr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high
velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?
Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very
strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or
a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just
depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin.
That's why it's awfully hard to predict.
Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking
of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile
whose velocity was spent after going through President Kennedy and
through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the
thigh?
Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any
representative of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?
Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the
Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the
administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies
of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the
President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those
same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and
exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at
previously in these five diagrams.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative
of the Federal Government before today?
Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the
FBI--well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone
what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with
regard to the President or the Governor--no.
Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did
they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or
were other subjects covered?
Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.
Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the
Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?
Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the
court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did
you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition
and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during
the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the
record here this afternoon?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which
you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?
Dr. SHIRES. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very
much, Dr. Shires.
Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald--that's my only other question?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the
record at this point.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding
the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions
about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.
First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last
two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial
Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with
you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two
sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared
on treatment of Mr. Oswald?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition
was when you first saw him?
Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was
unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart
beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration.
There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet
could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting
this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition,
it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every
major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to
be the case.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?
Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube,
intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared,
draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in
the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major
vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there
had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and
around the abdomen.
After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the
bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15,
16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and
he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss
incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though
we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made
at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but
never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial
impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac
death and not cardiac arrest.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in
lay terms?
Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature
recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too
fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it
might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes
from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected
it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty,
finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal
wound--there was no question about that.
Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and
treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which
I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.
Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY
The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in
response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and
he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified
in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see
President Kennedy.
Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order
creating the President's Commission?
Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of
testimony?
Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today,
even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right
to, if you want it?
Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?
Dr. DULANY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. DULANY. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?
Dr. DULANY. M.D.--Medical Doctor.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Texas?
Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please,
starting with college--graduation from college?
Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of
Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was
in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the
service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and
then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the
room where President Kennedy was being cared for.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's
treatment?
Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the
President was being treated?
Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in
the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so
I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7
minutes or so afterwards.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?
Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President
when you entered?
Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he
had a large head wound--that was the first thing I noticed.
There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was
later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other
doctors were putting chest tubes in.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time?
Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark
and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of
course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members,
Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were
in there.
Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?
Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?
Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be
helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?
Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you
probably already know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?
Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed?
Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in.
Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the
President's neck?
Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any
statement along that line.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at
all?
Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was
told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the
best I can tell you.
Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing
here today.
Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE
The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on
March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right
hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these
deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, you may be seated.
Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto,
and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in
connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally
in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland
Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that.
Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting
that you appear?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town
and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter,
but I haven't seen it yet.
Mr. SPECTER. You haven't seen it yet?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the
letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the
White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is
a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me
to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days'
notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your
deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are
agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and
take it now.
Miss STANDRIDGE (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can
just go ahead if you want to--it's all right with me.
Mr. SPECTER. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today
or next week?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it does not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Ruth Jeanette Standridge.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Head nurse of the emergency rooms.
Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery
area in Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you receive notification that the President of the
United States was en route to Parkland Hospital?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson.
Mr. SPECTER. And at about what time did you receive that notification?
Miss STANDRIDGE. About 12:30, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of
getting that notice?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma
room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine.
Mr. SPECTER. And was trauma room 1 set up?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same
time.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was it arrived?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I was busy with the Governor.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do when the Governor arrived?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the
orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the
syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV.
Mr. SPECTER. And, what do you mean by "IV"?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Intravenous fluids.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor
Connally's clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the
Governor's shirt?
Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the front of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Not that I can say for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. There could have been or could not have been, but you just
don't know?
Miss STANDRIDGE. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood
that we noticed.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything on the coat?
Miss STANDRIDGE. There was blood on the coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing his suit coat?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in
the coat?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't see one.
Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw
him?
Miss STANDRIDGE. He was laying on his back on the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of cart was he lying on?
Miss STANDRIDGE. The emergency cart on rollers.
Mr. SPECTER. What is that emergency cart constructed of?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on
the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to
X-ray and to surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Of metal with four big tires on it.
Mr. SPECTER. With four roller tires on it?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on top of the Governor?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he completely undressed?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being
undressed?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly
that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the
money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?
Miss STANDRIDGE. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there
was a couple of other doctors--I don't remember who they were, but they
were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in
before they got the Governor's clothes off.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Not unusual.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes, there were.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the
emergency room?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I
think everything was taken off.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with Governor Connally following the
completion of his being undressed?
Miss STANDRIDGE. He was immediately carried to the elevator--emergency
elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator?
Miss STANDRIDGE. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room
on.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that also describable as a stretcher?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You say "Yes"?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing
him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up
again--I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2
and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was
closing with him on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into
the elevator?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I
started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put
him into the elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and
down the hall--is it a little ways?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; you go through that section to get to this
elevator from the major surgery section.
Mr. SPECTER. How far did you help push him from the major surgery
section?
Miss STANDRIDGE. About from the door that went into OBGN.
Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another
20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator,
which is about 6 or 8 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to
get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the
stretcher?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I could just see--I could see the
stretcher--yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the
door was closed in.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No, not--I think his feet were at the end--I could
just see feet--I believe the feet were there at that door, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who
were pushing him when you last saw him?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure that was Governor Connally?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No, that's what I said--I just saw his feet, which I
assumed it was--it was the same doctors.
Mr. SPECTER. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing
the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his
feet?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. You went back and got his clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with those clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I asked the administrator who should I give them to,
and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they
were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were
two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see--I wanted
to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door
and they asked for somebody, and he said he was--he identified himself
as Cliff Carter.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you give him the clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what he did with it?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard what he did with it?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in
Representative Gonzales' office in a closet.
Mr. SPECTER. And is he a Texas Representative?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. In his office closet where?
Miss STANDRIDGE. In Washington, D.C.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating
room area?
Miss STANDRIDGE. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots
are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the
hallway into the nurses' station.
Mr. SPECTER. You can go around in part of the operating room area?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Isn't into the premises--it's just in the hallway into
the nurses' station.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond
that into the operating room area?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots
are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will
be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at
anytime while he was in the emergency room?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't
taken off at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go
only to the operating room?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to
delivery--up to the delivery room on third floor.
Mr. SPECTER. What is on first floor?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No patients--only classrooms and administrative
offices--business offices.
Mr. SPECTER. What is on third floor?
Miss STANDRIDGE. The delivery room--it opens up into the delivery room
and then the post mortem wards.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think
might be helpful to us in any way?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have
already stated.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes; I was in the room--I took the mop in. The
orderlies mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of
the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came
back in.
Mr. SPECTER. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him there?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And how was he clothed at that time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, as far as from his waist up--was all that was
uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet--it was
wrapped around his head.
Mr. SPECTER. What clothing did he have on from the waist down?
Miss STANDRIDGE. It was just a sheet cover--I don't know of anything
under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all
unclothed, which we do routinely.
Mr. SPECTER. He was all unclothed?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I said I assumed he was--I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What did he have from the waist up?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Nothing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was he on at that time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. A stretcher cart.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the
President's stretcher?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take
the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the
investigation by the Warren Commission?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking
questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about
before the court reporter came in?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the
Federal Government?
Miss STANDRIDGE. The Secret Service--yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk with them once or more than once?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's
office and another time just briefly--he came to see the layout of the
emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Whose office--Mr. Wright?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Personnel manager here.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those
occasions?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today.
Mr. SPECTER. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part
of the hospital on another day, you say?
Miss STANDRIDGE. I think he came back up into the emergency room at
that time.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time?
Miss STANDRIDGE. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas.
Mr. SPECTER. And you identified some of the things?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the
Federal Government?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Any representative of the State government?
Miss STANDRIDGE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much. Those are all--those are the only
questions I have.
Miss STANDRIDGE. Thank you for that.
TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER
The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964,
at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and
she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right
hand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this
proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Miss WESTER. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this
proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the
assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy
and Governor Connally following their being shot.
The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to
testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning
treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition
of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at
the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland
Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?
Miss WESTER. Jane Carolyn Wester.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?
Miss WESTER. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter of notification from the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy
advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking
testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester?
Miss WESTER. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And at that time did you receive the copies of the
Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations
relating to the taking of testimony?
Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some
questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor
Connally?
Miss WESTER. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. SPECTER. And President Kennedy?
Miss WESTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?
Miss WESTER. I am a registered nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what institution are you employed?
Miss WESTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland
Memorial Hospital?
Miss WESTER. Nine years--or 9 1/2.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were
back on November 22, 1963?
Miss WESTER. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I
assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy
and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to
receive treatment?
Miss WESTER. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?
Miss WESTER. At noon, around noon--noontime--I'm not sure as to the
exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the
phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President
were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said
that a Secret Service agent was down there and as soon as the
President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the
treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?
Miss WESTER. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us
to set up for a craniotomy.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?
Miss WESTER. That's an exploration of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other request made at that time?
Miss WESTER. Yes--well--immediately following, following that I
received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of
the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the
requests you received?
Miss WESTER. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two
rooms for these two cases.
Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the craniotomy?
Miss WESTER. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.
Mr. SPECTER. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?
Miss WESTER. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.
Mr. SPECTER. And on what floor were the two rooms?
Miss WESTER. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened next in connection with this matter?
Miss WESTER. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep
traffic out of the operating room and keep people back--keep the halls
clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating
room with several doctors--arrived by stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first
floor, or by what means of locomotion?
Miss WESTER. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the
operating room--it comes directly from emergency room and which--there
were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.
Mr. SPECTER. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the
elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?
Miss WESTER. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the
hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.
Mr. SPECTER. About how far is that from the elevator door?
Miss WESTER. Approximately 50 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done then with Governor Connally on the
stretcher, following the point where you met them?
Miss WESTER. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we
transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating
table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and
placed them in the hallway by the operating table.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when
you first saw him on the stretcher?
Miss WESTER. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on
him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.
Mr. SPECTER. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?
Miss WESTER. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the
bottom of the cart in a paper sack.
Mr. SPECTER. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an
operating table?
Miss WESTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the
operating room?
Miss WESTER. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we
transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into
the operating room.
Mr. SPECTER. And did he have any clothing on at the time you
transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?
Miss WESTER. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.
Mr. SPECTER. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating
table?
Miss WESTER. The operating table was moved into the operating room and
at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to
sleep.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at
that time.
Miss WESTER. Dr.--there were many--Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e
(spelling)--there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and
there were many others--right offhand, I can't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go into the operating room at that time?
Miss WESTER. I went as far as the doorway with him.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to
that point?
Miss WESTER. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of
the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a
small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?
Miss WESTER. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside
the other up into a small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the
number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?
Miss WESTER. The cart--the mattress on the cart is covered with one
sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in
the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey
cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up
and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?
Miss WESTER. There were several glassine packets, small packets of
hypodermic needles--well, packed in and sterilized in. There were
several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those
things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher
cart?
Miss WESTER. Right off, I can't remember----
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?
Miss WESTER. There could have been--I don't recall right off--I can't
remember that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of
the stretcher?
Miss WESTER. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a
curved hemostat--I couldn't say for sure--I'm not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally
on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there
any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that
particular spot?
Miss WESTER. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Miss WESTER. There is a clock.
Mr. SPECTER. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating
room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?
Miss WESTER. I would say approximately 75 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor
Connally was taken off of it?
Miss WESTER. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly
close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an
orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up----
Mr. SPECTER. His initials are R. J.?
Miss WESTER. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and
removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and
proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was
standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?
Miss WESTER. Not that I know of.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher
looked like?
Miss WESTER. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin
mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It
has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper
shelf of the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is it constructed of?
Miss WESTER. Well, it's a metal--steel.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the mattress?
Miss WESTER. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the
sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were
rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in
connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection
with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling
the sheets up.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection
with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these
events at some time in the past?
Miss WESTER. Yes; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by anyone else?
Miss WESTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or
more than one occasion?
Miss WESTER. Only one occasion.
Mr. SPECTER. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting
to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you
about the purpose of this proceeding?
Miss WESTER. Yes; you did.
Mr. SPECTER. And about the facts to which you have testified since this
formal deposition started?
Miss WESTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously
testified to here to this effect?
Miss WESTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have
anything on it?
Miss WESTER. It had some blood.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort
concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?
Miss WESTER. No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much
for appearing here.
Miss WESTER. Fine.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS
The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the oath has been administered
to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter
request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission
on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment
of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.
Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge
about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported
while in the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross,
to state your full name?
Mrs. ROSS. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.
Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?
Mrs. ROSS. Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?
Mrs. ROSS. Operating room technician.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. ROSS. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass
by I did not know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him as he left the elevator?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that?
Mrs. ROSS. About--it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was
supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?
Mrs. ROSS. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I
don't know exactly who--I only remember one person and that was Dr.
Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Jane Wester there?
Mrs. ROSS. She was up there; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if
anything?
Mrs. ROSS. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the
operating table and put him on it.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they pushing him on?
Mrs. ROSS. On a stretcher from the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting
with what was it made of?
Mrs. ROSS. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet
on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is
the length of the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it made of metal?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they
rolled Governor Connally off of it?
Mrs. ROSS. It was pushed back up toward room 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that toward the elevator?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was it pushed?
Mrs. ROSS. Jimison.
Mr. SPECTER. R. J. Jimison?
Mrs. ROSS. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. He's one of the orderlies there?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you last see the stretcher?
Mrs. ROSS. In front of room 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?
Mrs. ROSS. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?
Mrs. ROSS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. ROSS. One time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government
about this matter?
Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful to the Commission?
Mrs. ROSS. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing.
Mrs. ROSS. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON
The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21,
1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your
right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this
Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. JIMISON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification
from the President's Commission advising you that you would be
contacted to have your deposition taken?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive
order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional
resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking
depositions by the Commission?
Mr. JIMISON. I believe it did.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir;
do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having
them reported by the court reporter here?
Mr. JIMISON. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison?
Mr. JIMISON. I would just say the hospital--County Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Parkland Memorial Hospital?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of work do you do here?
Mr. JIMISON. Orderly.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says,
"R. J. Jimison".
Mr. JIMISON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. "Orderly." And is that your full name?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what does the "R" stand for?
Mr. JIMISON. That's just an initial name.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the "J"?
Mr. JIMISON. Same.
Mr. SPECTER. So, people call you "R. J."?
Mr. JIMISON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr.
Jimison?
Mr. JIMISON. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport
patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day?
Mr. JIMISON. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day?
Mr. JIMISON. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor
Connally?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance,
but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was--I
assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. JIMISON. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite,
near room 4, where his operation was performed.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5?
Mr. JIMISON. He was taken in room--I thought it was room 4, but maybe
it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I
told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put
them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of
the elevator?
Mr. JIMISON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What floor were you on when you first saw him?
Mr. JIMISON. I was on two.
Mr. SPECTER. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him?
Mr. JIMISON. I guess he must have been about 20 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where
you were?
Mr. JIMISON. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the
clock that is overhead in the center there?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were there doctors around him at that time?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to----
Mr. JIMISON. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I
helped them take him off.
Mr. SPECTER. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the
operating table?
Mr. JIMISON. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the
table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to
get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got
free--whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there--they pushed it
back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with
it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it
on and pushed the door closed.
Mr. SPECTER. What was on the stretcher at that time?
Mr. JIMISON. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two
sheets as usual.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the position of the sheets?
Mr. JIMISON. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out
on the bed.
Mr. SPECTER. Had they been rolled up?
Mr. JIMISON. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the
mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it
would be just throwed about halfway.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the sheets flat or just turned over?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, just turned over.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they crumpled up in any way?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly--a tragic
day.
Mr. SPECTER. It was what?
Mr. JIMISON. It was a tragic day.
Mr. SPECTER. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of
it?
Mr. JIMISON. We didn't look too close.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else on the stretcher?
Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed anything else at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic
needles or an alcohol sponge?
Mr. JIMISON. There could have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Or a 1-inch roll of tape?
Mr. JIMISON. There could have been something--small stuff, but nothing
large like bundles or anything like that.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?
Mr. JIMISON. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the
emergency area?
Mr. JIMISON. Not close in the emergency area--that's the only one.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator?
Mr. JIMISON. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up
there and remade and put in use again.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself?
Mr. JIMISON. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact
is--the purpose is--we have enough to do up there, and we have men up
there to take care of that.
Mr. SPECTER. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there?
Is that right?
Mr. JIMISON. One of them--we put it on the elevator, then it becomes
the responsibility of the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator
later that day?
Mr. JIMISON. Not during my shift.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the
elevator if there were one?
Mr. JIMISON. No, I is not, but might near--I could might near see of
anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--I
could might near see all of the stretchers put on there.
Mr. SPECTER. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in
your presence?
Mr. JIMISON. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see
it.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally
on the elevator?
Mr. JIMISON. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know
exactly the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating
room, did you?
Mr. JIMISON. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you get off that day?
Mr. JIMISON. 3:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that
elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until
the end of the day?
Mr. JIMISON. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the
emergency--from the emergency that we had from that time that he was
brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher?
Mr. JIMISON. I never noticed any at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before
the court reporter came in to take this all down here today?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And have I asked you questions and have you given me
answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition
started?
Mr. JIMISON. (No response.)
Mr. SPECTER. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been
talking about since the court reporter came in?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the
Federal Government?
Mr. JIMISON. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was that?
Mr. JIMISON. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that
happened--I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government.
Mr. SPECTER. What branch was he from?
Mr. JIMISON. I thought he was from the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret
Service?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once.
Mr. SPECTER. And what about?
Mr. JIMISON. The same thing.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact?
Mr. JIMISON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be
helpful to us?
Mr. JIMISON. Well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well
covered--just, I actually want to give facts about something I know
something about, and during the time I know something about, and what
actually happened from the time I got off--I couldn't tell you, but I
do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked
up until I got off from duty.
This ain't actually--not in it, but due to this--this is--what I'm
fixing to say is off of the book--I couldn't see after President
Kennedy because I didn't--I never did get up to the floor--so I didn't
see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming
in and helping us a lot.
Mr. JIMISON. Same back to you.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON
The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964,
at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court
reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the
oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these
proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, for the record?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding
is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by
the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination
of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any,
which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination
of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland
Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or
anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either
one of those men.
First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission
was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition
concerning this matter?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive
order creating the Commission?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the
creation of the President's Commission?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of
witnesses by members of the Commission's staff?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions
about what you observed or know about this matter?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather
than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was
yesterday?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial.
Mr. SPECTER. It's immaterial to you?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It's immaterial--it's at your convenience.
Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson.
The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it
doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your
information today.
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right
with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do
that; is that all right?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your capacity?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I am classed as the senior engineer.
Mr. SPECTER. And what duties are involved in general?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital,
which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the
building.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to
the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the
second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital?
Mr. TOMLINSON. You mean just the general lay?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; please.
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement
to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in
the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct
route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the
operating rooms on two.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on
November 22, sometime around the noon hour?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you have to do with that elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office,
the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the
elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a
mechanical difficulty of any sort?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it
isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and
they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground
floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what were you to do with this elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you would operate it in that way?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; make a manual operation out of it.
Mr. SPECTER. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the
best of your recollection?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It was around 1 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you
will, please.
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a
white covering on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but
I don't believe there was.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against
the south wall.
Mr. SPECTER. On what floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. The ground floor.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already
there.
(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have
made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few
minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which
you pushed off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating).
Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A"
right in the center of that?
(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher
which was already on the first floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different
designation for the first floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first,
second, and third on that elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know?
Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two.
That's our surgical suites up there.
Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital
on?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of
the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there.
Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the
ground floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator?
Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher.
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present
at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)
I believe that's it.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to
stretcher "B"?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly,
but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's
room there in the elevator lobby.
Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B"
stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a
general way?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?
(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)
Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use
the men's room?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get
in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the
stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where
we would have clear area in front of the elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end
and a sterile pack or so.
Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what?
Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what
they came from.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A"
that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly
honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that
much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed
it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I
straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to
bring him down to the ground floor to get blood.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up,
what do you mean by that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had
some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator.
Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you
rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the
wall at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with
reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that
sort of thing?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on
the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the
four wheels.
Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers.
Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed
steel. The majority of them have those.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I
placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take
down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we
not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which
you have testified about, did we not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
it not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
took off of the elevator.
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started
our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take
it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which
came off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other
Federal representative?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who interviewed you about it?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one
was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.
Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about
the same thing we've gone over here.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more
detail here.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which
stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not
sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I
took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which
stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the
elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for
sure, I really don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret
Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure
whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the
elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it,
whether it was A or B that I took off.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the
situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service
man and when you talked to the FBI man?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about
the same thing as you have told me today?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson,
you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the
elevator car?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that.
Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when----
Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing
off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and
brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency
area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it
was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to
the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took
off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't
know how many people went through that--I don't know how many people
hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them
in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I
discovered the bullet on the end of it there.
Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you
took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just
can't be sure?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively
sure--I think it was A, but I'm not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath,
which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret
Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on
the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--I called that to your
attention, didn't I?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on
refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No; it really doesn't--it really doesn't.
Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first
started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher
you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that
the Secret Service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you
took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off,
and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire
situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher
you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher
that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?
Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what
you told me before?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling
him definitely--I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could
have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.
Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know
where----
Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought
down from the second floor.
Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from,
whether it was brought down from the second floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took
off.
Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you
thought it was you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that--whether I absolutely made a
positive statement to that effect.
Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the
elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you
took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A--I'm not really sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you
thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him
this or that.
Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you
thought it was A or not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to
being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they
are writing down everything, I mean.
Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are
saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best
recollection.
We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like
November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every
other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember,
and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so
does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going
to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found
on the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could
have come from three, it could have come from some other place.
Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There
wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether
you sign this deposition at the end or not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank
you very much. Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a
proposed exhibit.)
Mr. SPECTER. On the record.
Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am
having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for
identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and
will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one
which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and
B of the stretchers we have been discussing?
Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency.
Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON
The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March
24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following
a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken.
During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21,
it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of
value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the
General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.
Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts
relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital,
and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your
knowledge of his presence here.
Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the
Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of
testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today
without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?
Miss BOWRON. Yes, I am.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss BOWRON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?
Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?
Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other
area?
Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?
Miss BOWRON. Since August 4, 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment
here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?
Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a
year's contract and to work in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?
Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school,
and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in
England. I finished in February of last year.
Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?
Miss BOWRON. Twenty two.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President
Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?
Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your
being called in to assist in that case?
Miss BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery
area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the
intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so
the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and
I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the
cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?
Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?
Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being
brought forward at that time?
Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the
OB--GYN section.
Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was
some one helping?
Miss BOWRON. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.
Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?
Miss BOWRON. Joe--I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I
know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?
Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett
took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?
Miss BOWRON. Bill.
Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?
Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and
we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front.
We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were
moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to
try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart
and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's
condition when you first saw him?
Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs.
Connally but apparently--I didn't notice very much--I was more
concerned with the person in the back of the car--the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect
to President Kennedy's condition?
Miss BOWRON. He was moribund--he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee
and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the
other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?
Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad--you know.
Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large
hole?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?
Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away
and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to
the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room
and she ran beside us.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?
Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?
Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it
was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is
assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the
I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up.
Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when
the President arrived in the trauma area?
Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?
Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been.
Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?
Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether
it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his
clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was
more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the
chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?
Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the
second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came
back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that
he was dead, they said.
And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all
of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them
to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until
the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we----
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?
Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped
us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and
everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the
floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in.
And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests
left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with
him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the
coffin.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being
treated?
Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and--who else was there--there were so many.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?
Miss BOWRON. I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you
have already mentioned?
Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs.
Nelson--the supervisor.
Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?
Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir--I don't know the name of any.
Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did
you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?
Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards.
Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?
Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up
and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to
really take much notice.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed
the trach tube?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President
Kennedy's body from the stretcher?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir--I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the
stretcher?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was
removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma
room No. 1 on?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the
adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?
Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we
took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work
had been done on him--so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before
he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra
sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some
sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were
put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't
slip.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and
on floor area there?
Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All of them?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?
Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No.
2, which was empty.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was
wheeled into trauma room No. 2?
Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was
left on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that
stretcher?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?
Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of
newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron
Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.
(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos.
2, 3, and 4, for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those
are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this
assassination day?
Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared
in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.
Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?
Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".
Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that
published in?
Miss BOWRON. London.
Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?
Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail--The Daily Mail".
Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?
Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.
Mr. SPECTER. In England?
Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?
Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.
Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?
Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.
Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you
and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland?
Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one--I think it was an Australian
paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and
which was the same as I think--as this one.
Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared
about your participation in this event?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which
this information was obtained, if you know?
Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been
two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she
told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to
the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell
them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address,
and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out
to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they
finished, and that was all that I told them.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be
some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only
child and my mother worries, so I called home the next--that night and
told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably
be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it
but they weren't to say anything that--except that I had been on duty
and that was all.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the
Federal Government prior to today?
Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. By whom?
Miss BOWRON. I don't really know--he was an FBI agent.
Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?
Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?
Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked
us.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?
Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?
Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the
Federal Government prior to today?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition
and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before
we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have
put on the record here today?
Miss BOWRON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be
helpful in any way to the Commission?
Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left
arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid
it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and
put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was
being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out
to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and
found this Mr. Wright.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?
Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.--I was just a few
feet behind him.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance
to the Commission?
Miss BOWRON. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.
Miss BOWRON. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.
Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE
The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March
21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in
today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The
Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs.
Doris Nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some
information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has
not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of
the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.
Permit me to make those documents available to you.
(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)
Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of
this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been
authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all
right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as
opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice
which you are entitled to if you want it?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your
deposition taken today?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give
before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was
on his way to the hospital?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it, if at all?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first
arrived at the site of the emergency room?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what?
Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came
there?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital
itself?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance--no. It was after he came
into the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into
the emergency room No. 1?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him
when he had just come into the emergency area?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was
there very shortly after--afterwards.
Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after
you did?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him
and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds,
Dr. Carrico came in.
Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see--there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry,
and you want all of them that were in the room?
Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them.
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw,
and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it
was.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when
you first saw him?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when
I saw him at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him--except his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like.
Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole--I don't
remember seeing one that looked like that.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round--just a little round hole,
just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes,
Miss Henchliffe?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down
there--I don't know how many a year.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency
room.
Mr. SPECTER. In what?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the
emergency room?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was
inserted.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was
pronounced to be dead?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then
undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the
coffin was brought.
Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin.
Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a
long----
Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal.
Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber
covered mattress on it.
Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left
on the stretcher at that time?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty
syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.
Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up--where were they placed?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the
utility room.
Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure--there was probably about
two or three.
Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after
President Kennedy's body was removed?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there
was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been
placed under his head.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen
hamper.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was he?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders--is that his name?
Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy
was on rolled into the room across the hall?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the
sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on
was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful
to the Commission?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything.
Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and
the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you
have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to
take this down in shorthand?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming.
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay.
(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the
deposing room.)
(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the
deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)
Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss
Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.
Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything
special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like
most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.
Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle
was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which
encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient
knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be
consistent with an exit wound?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to
someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you
have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit
anything but soft tissue going through.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis
for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound
other than that source of information you just described, plus your
general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5
years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what other experience have you had besides emergency
room experience?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance
of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just
talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came
out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.
Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like
an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add?
Miss HENCHLIFFE. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.
Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON
The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at
Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and
will you raise your right hand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mrs. NELSON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing
to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide
whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received
by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial
Hospital on November 22, 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?
Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling].
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the
joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which
established the President's Commission?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of
the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members
of the Commission staff?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this
matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days'
notice under the resolution?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?
Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room
at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied?
Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22,
1963?
Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the
treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures
with the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date
concerning injuries to President Kennedy?
Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes
prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the
President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the
President's arrival?
Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room
No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head
nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the
emergency room.
Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that
trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a
bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been
injured?
Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.
Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured
party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?
Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone
calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got
a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor
Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him
as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma
room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than
one stretcher taken out?
Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out
at the time because I was not out at that area.
Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher
was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was
President Kennedy.
Mr. SPECTER. How were you able to identify President Kennedy?
Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.
Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see?
Mrs. NELSON. The--mainly his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face?
Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not
completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy--do you want me to tell
about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs.
Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the
question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will
appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record
purposes.
Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the
roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the
President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was
brought into the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken?
Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him
in a medical way?
Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time
that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of
surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr.
Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of
neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour--
Mr. SPECTER. Spell, please.
Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of
Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names
at the present time.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where
President Kennedy was taken?
Mrs. NELSON. When what?
Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him,
caring for him at any time?
Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly
to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather
than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told
by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the
emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be
placed on from the stretcher?
Mrs. NELSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the
emergency room?
Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring
a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a
stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the
patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency
room on.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the
time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?
Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President
Kennedy was on?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher,
did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel
working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room
1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher?
Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and
Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].
Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret
Henchliffe strip the stretcher?
Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received
afterwards.
Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report?
Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the
emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?
Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to
trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the
two rooms with the Secret Service Police.
Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the
time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all----
Mrs. NELSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all?
Mrs. NELSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?
Mrs. NELSON. It was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on
the floor or what?
Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller-type table.
Mr. SPECTER. And did--do you know what President Kennedy's body was in,
if anything, at that time?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said
that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they
had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so
I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic
mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the
casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not
see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse,
and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was
around the mattress.
Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you?
Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to
absorb the blood from the President's body?
Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around
him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled
up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss
Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located?
Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of
the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.
Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on?
Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally?
Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very
short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had
chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen
given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to
the operating room accompanied by several doctors.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma
room No. 2?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.
Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?
Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss
Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator.
I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.
Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her?
Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge?
Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name?
Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette.
Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried?
Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled.
Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor
Connally was on?
Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type
of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic
mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between--on the sides,
so that the--I don't know how to explain exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect?
Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was
resting?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher
that President Kennedy was brought in on?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement
which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon,
Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit
in connection with this deposition.
(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave
to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your
activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the
best of your knowledge, information and belief?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are.
Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started
this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed
here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.
Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs.
Doris Nelson.)
Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute.
Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement
here, that it is your statement?
Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.)
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any
formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?
Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE
The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March
25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have
his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is
concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital
to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.
Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price
and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the
President's Commission----
Mr. PRICE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of
witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken
without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the
taking of the deposition?
Mr. PRICE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PRICE. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here?
Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of
Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland
Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who
participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and
Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned
with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that
treatment?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical
records committee.
Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission
through Dr. Kemp Clark?
Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact,
some of the records were written in my office and since that time have
been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk
drawer.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as
"Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of
the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy
and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the
records which were made by the examining doctors?
Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments
as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say
"Yes," or "No"?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that
those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day
informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent,
which I will put on the deposition record here.
Mr. PRICE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392,
permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No.
2.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2,
for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter
which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's
private physician?
Mr. PRICE. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed
at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?
Mr. PRICE. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the
corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President
arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43
scratched out?
Mr. PRICE. That's correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask
the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah
McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3,
for identification.)
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4
an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a
report in your possession?
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4,
for identification.)
Mr. PRICE. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins?
Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking
at here?
Mr. PRICE. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392?
Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W.
Kemp Clark.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in
this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr.
Perry.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which
appears in Exhibit 392?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit
392?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.
Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's
statement?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be
Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your
file?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report?
Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.
Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked
Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original
in your file?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is next?
Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the
original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?
Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)
Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records
concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?
Mr. PRICE. With one exception--there is in the file that I have of
Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of
patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.
Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of
patients?
Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave
this to you--the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5.
Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F.
Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?
Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2?
Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.
Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?
Mr. PRICE. The President should have been noted as No. 5.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5,
for identification.)
Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not
affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the
arrival there.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally
and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have
photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the
operation performed by Dr. Shaw.
Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical
charts that I have here.
Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that
record?
Mr. PRICE. Here it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report
prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your
record on Governor Connally?
Mr. PRICE. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr.
Charles Gregory?
Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded
to you--Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some
pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated
or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?
Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to
read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line
of getting a Xerox copy.
Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct
photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?
Mr. PRICE. It is; it is a correct copy.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going
to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos.
6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being
marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll
ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have
made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by
various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22,
and November 24.
Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group?
Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by
the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first
numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is
what?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the
emergency area. This is correct.
The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox
copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve
Landregan.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital?
Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator.
Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things?
Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement
to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment
over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our
outpatient clinic.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert
Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently
our evening administrator.
(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time,
for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick,
who is administrative aide.
Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright,
our director of nursing service.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana
Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 13?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie
Lennon.
Mr. SPECTER. What is her position?
Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14.
Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is
an R.N. in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean
Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16?
Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the
emergency area.
Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean
Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18.
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is
assigned to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is
an orderly in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20.
Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who
is a registered nurse in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton,
who is an aide in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.
Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in
registration--a nurse.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22?
Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an
aide in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in
the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24?
Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill
Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an
orderly in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who
is an orderly in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in
the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?
Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette
Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the
personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports
from the individual guards under his supervision.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is
assigned to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the
emergency room supervisor.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?
Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is
assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional
services of the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?
Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events
that transpired on November 24.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34?
Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday
and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.
Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports
to you?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of
individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in
the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were
requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities
would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of
the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is
a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was
altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?
Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it
appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to
signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make
clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries
who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to
be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when
what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed
at the time he read it and signed it.
Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it
before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.
Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much
better than mine.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.
Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record,
Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate
custodian of the records.
Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the
record had been altered here.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right
on that. Thank you.
Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH
The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn,
sir?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. COUCH. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.
Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas
to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent
you?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition
and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the
deposition--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and
sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court
reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would
like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive
signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.
Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.
Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. Couch, where do you live?
Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?
Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.
Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through
high school?
Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I
have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will
receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.
Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology
degree, to become a minister?
Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or
not, but I will be ordained.
Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday.
Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume
your wife and baby are doing well?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?
Mr. COUCH. Social science.
Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school
part time----
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and
part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?
Mr. COUCH. I went to college.
Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?
Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.
Mr. BELIN. January 1960?
Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school
here.
Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with
WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I
worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and
H-e-r-n-d-o-n.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of
college other than those?
Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the
camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September
1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there
2 years.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with
this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in
Theology, you stopped working?
Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from
college----
Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.
Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.
Mr. BELIN. I see.
Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you
whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.
Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to
whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of
President Kennedy to Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did
that day?
Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the
airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride
with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a
reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?
Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?
Mr. COUCH. Moving only.
Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?
Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward
downtown Dallas--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to
Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle
Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar
Springs. I'm not sure.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when
you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets
you went on?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on
Main at the City Hall.
Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?
Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to
Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember
offhand?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car
back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on
Main about how fast the motorcade was going?
Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked
up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one
of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out
of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned
north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you
remember who was riding in the car with you?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob
Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr.
Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I
don't know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way
you were sitting in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a
convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on
the seat.
Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the
top of the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.
Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?
Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you
remember about how fast you were going?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the
turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were
clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the
other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving
fairly fast.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the
motorcade, that you remember?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?
Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.
Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going
down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions.
As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston.
As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be;
sometimes they wouldn't.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you
described as a----
Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first
time we heard it--the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you
heard the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of
Main onto Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?
Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.
Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further
on you heard the first shot--the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I
was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't
know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard
the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction;
uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little,
but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess
from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And
then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a
gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front
of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings
at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle.
Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly
close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one
could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel
that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard
the third shot?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60
feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a
motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made
your turn north onto Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire
right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And
the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this
was another motorcycle backfiring.
Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there
anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that
you haven't related here at this time?
Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first
shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember
turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual
for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And
after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right,
yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"
And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the
time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a
foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window.
I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.
Mr. BELIN. In what building was that?
Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know
how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that
time?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to
the top floor or the second to the top floor--or----
Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance
at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because
there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the
top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.
Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but----
Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it
was either the sixth or seventh floor?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"----
Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east.
Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building?
Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw
the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it
was a rifle?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on
the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen,
you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw
an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything
of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and
what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic
sight on it?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the
window was open or halfway open or what?
Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open,
I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but
that was an impression.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you
remember--any boxes or anything like that?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you
definitely remember that you did not notice any?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the
building?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of
the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle
of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a
white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the
windows up above him.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the
building?
Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the
moment.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone
else say anything in the car?
Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or
anything.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our
car was facing the south side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his
exclamation and you saw what you just related?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my
hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and
made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you
can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start
the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As
I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas
Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see
about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete
the turn.
And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group,
or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository
Building itself?
Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment.
After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang
on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think
there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at
the very bottom of Elm Street----
Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm,
one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down
underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who
wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out.
And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to
the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the
crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building
entrance?
Mr. COUCH. No--uh----
Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?
Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment
whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a
sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with
determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.
Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone
were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that
time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?
Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were
blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify
someone.
Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you
came back to take these pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to
get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds
getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a
minute and a half.
Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the
area?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side
there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots
directed at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and
shots such as this.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been
pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these
pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing
south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at
the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park
area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository
property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that
little sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south?
Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't
know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I
think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were,
now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car
that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school
age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started
off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from
about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground
level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving.
Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository
Building is concerned?
Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a
roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a
2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.
Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't
take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself
when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground
of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and
I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his
pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason
I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I
had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was
that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling]
L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said,
"You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm
going to go back--I'm going to follow the President."
Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs
between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book
Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood
on the sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr.
Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads
up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book
Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west
and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book
Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.
Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or
not?
Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching
it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it.
Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and
ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression
was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around
that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen
had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those
shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was
a chase going on in that direction.
Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up,
and my first concern was to get back with the President.
Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north
of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?
Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the
expressway?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15
feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?
Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for
something. We thought there would be something else, but----
Mr. BELIN. There was nothing?
Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----?
Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.
Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along
with the phonetic sound.
Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book
Depository?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be
wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures.
Mr. BELIN. He did not take any?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south
side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front
entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?
Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.
Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before
any of this?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard
hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear
of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did
anyone ever tell you that?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall;
but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD----
Mr. BELIN. TV?
Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments,
I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the
building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he
actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than
hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you
have not related here?
Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No.
Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states
that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted
about this--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right.
Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you
heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related
here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember
whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI
you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would
you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as
sometimes happens?
Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time;
even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about
timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's
a long time.
Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of
time between shots?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but
it could be from 3 to 5.
Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second
shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been
a difference?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were
relatively the same.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this
deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few
minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining
to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the
testimony that you have just given?
Mr. COUCH. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in
great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to
relate the story to me?
Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we
began.
Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the
deposition--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked
about--is that right?
Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time
which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination
of President Kennedy?
Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to
come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you
to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down
here. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're
still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question,
but I had better ask it again.
When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you
see at first?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it.
Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time
you saw it being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45° angle westward--which would be pointing
down Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45° angle" would that be up or down, or
are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and
south?
Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position.
Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45° angle downward
pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the
building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more
southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building,
I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was
sticking straight out the window, so to speak.
Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that
on the record.
TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD
The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. State your name.
Mr. DILLARD. Tom C. Dillard.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please?
Mr. DILLARD (Complying).
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. DILLARD. I do.
Mr. BALL. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You
have already been requested to be present have you not----
Mr. DILLARD. By letter; yes.
Mr. BALL. By letter which you received last week?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. DILLARD. I am a photographer.
Mr. BALL. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you
questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning
the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas,
Tex.
Mr. DILLARD. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief
photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but
my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I
do outside work for the paper on photographic work.
Mr. BALL. How old are you?
Mr. DILLARD. I'm 49.
Mr. BALL. What has been your general education?
Mr. DILLARD. High school, very few college courses.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. DILLARD. High school and very few college courses.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. DILLARD. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the
old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the
Military and Air University.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the paper?
Mr. DILLARD. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star
Telegram, went to work in 1929.
Mr. BALL. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years?
Mr. DILLARD. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started
at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and
whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed
President Kennedy, weren't you?
Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six
in the line.
Mr. BALL. Did you meet the President at Love Field?
Mr. DILLARD. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into
Dallas?
Mr. DILLARD. Right.
Mr. BALL. Who was in your car?
Mr. DILLARD. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV
and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the
Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and
did you have information his name is Couch?
Mr. BALL. That's right; and the man that drove----
Mr. DILLARD. Channel 5--Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of
the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet
convertible.
Mr. BALL. Your car was about sixth, was it?
Mr. DILLARD. I believe.
Mr. BALL. From the President's car?
Mr. DILLARD. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the
airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer.
We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably
know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and
certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck.
In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was
in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature.
Mr. BALL. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the
President's car in sight at that time?
Mr. DILLARD. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could
only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high
rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the
people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which
pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very
poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade
started.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made
the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston?
Mr. DILLARD. It had.
Mr. BALL. It had?
Mr. DILLARD. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I
say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had.
Mr. BALL. Where were you sitting in the car?
Mr. DILLARD. I was sitting in the right front.
Mr. BALL. Who was in the front seat with you?
Mr. DILLARD. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside
me--no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember
what our locations were.
Mr. BALL. But you know you were in the right front?
Mr. DILLARD. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on
Houston?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that
I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a
torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go
ahead----
Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story.
Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later,
estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my
comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very
distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire."
Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear?
Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced.
Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with
reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first
explosion?
Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it
seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down
so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn
when I heard the first explosion.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything?
Mr. DILLARD. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They
killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson--there was some
running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and
we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School
Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said,
"There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera
ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were
several open windows and I scanned the building.
Mr. BALL. Which building?
Mr. DILLARD. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my
camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the
third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and
then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and
I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with
one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a
two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm.
which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those
pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.
Mr. BALL. You shot how many pictures?
Mr. DILLARD. Two pictures.
Mr. BALL. With one camera or two different cameras?
Mr. DILLARD. Two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily
photo, but twice the normal lens.
Mr. BALL. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready?
Mr. DILLARD. Hung around my neck and held in my hand.
Mr. BALL. You brought them up and focused and shot?
Mr. DILLARD. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of
buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of
course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly--in a
very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade,
so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is
covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to
get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and
so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual
thing in the parade that I noticed was the President--I understand the
President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the
near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that
said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of
the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to
get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable
to get up that far.
Mr. BALL. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book
Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say?
Mr. DILLARD. From the window or from the----
Mr. BALL. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement
along the street.
Mr. DILLARD. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of
Elm and Houston Streets.
Mr. BALL. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give
me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your
camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture?
Mr. DILLARD. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything in the windows?
Mr. DILLARD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see a rifle barrel?
Mr. DILLARD. No.
Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures or forms in the window?
Mr. DILLARD. Only in the windows which was the windows below.
Mr. BALL. How many forms did you see in the windows below?
Mr. DILLARD. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows.
I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were
covering.
Mr. BALL. You saw them as you were taking the picture?
Mr. DILLARD. I may have; I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures?
Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate?
Mr. DILLARD. Right.
Mr. BALL. Your car stopped where?
Mr. DILLARD. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston
Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I
know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying
on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the
plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out
and I don't know what happened.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you go out?
Mr. DILLARD. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under
the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation
in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or
anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay around there?
Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps 2 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. DILLARD. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by
with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we
started--I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons
Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew
and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I
never saw the Presidential car.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of
the explosions--what direction it was coming from?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming
from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a
great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of
high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns.
Mr. BALL. You have had experience with rifles?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with
the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of
reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction
but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was
facing north toward the School Depository--I might add that I very
definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it.
Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind.
Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. I
mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.
Mr. BALL. Who did you mention it to?
Mr. DILLARD. Bob, I'm sure.
Mr. BALL. Bob Jackson?
Mr. DILLARD. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it.
Mr. BALL. You developed your pictures, didn't you?
Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Or did you turn them over?
Mr. DILLARD. I printed them.
Mr. BALL. You printed them?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or
not. I may have.
Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back
from the hospital.
Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two
pictures you had taken?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have----
Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was
more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle
fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three
shots.
Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession?
Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the
managing editor's office.
Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can
identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do
this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those
negatives?
Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Off-record discussion.)
Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print
made from your negatives, is that satisfactory?
Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized.
Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy
to this deposition.
Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other.
Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a
wide lens?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens?
Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same.
Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two
pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell
me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that
day.
Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on
November 22.
Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each
negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them,
is that correct?
Mr. DILLARD. That is correct.
Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it
part of this deposition--just on the back?
Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These
two are prints from one of my negatives.
Mr. BALL. That will be all right.
Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative.
Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of?
Mr. DILLARD. If you wish.
Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement
to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of
November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise
which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said----
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Off-record discussion.)
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that,
you realized it was gunfire?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that
upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped
almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. DILLARD. My car?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim
"I see a rifle; it's up in the open window".
Mr. DILLARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository
located at Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr. DILLARD. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle
protruding from any window?
Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle.
Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs?
Mr. DILLARD. Correct.
Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives?
Mr. DILLARD. That's true.
Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave
the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of
3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I
was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building?
Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no.
Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this?
Mr. DILLARD. Sure.
Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD
The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on
April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn?
(Complying.)
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood.
Mr. BALL. Your occupation?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in
Dallas.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the
Presidential motorcade?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President.
Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose
name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning
News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now----
Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas
Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from
WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it.
Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the
department of public safety.
Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of
which is news photographer.
Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you
go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for
your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about
yourself.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in
the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that
I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began
working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I
got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947
and I became program director and news director of a radio station in
Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station
in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news
director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and
a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television
and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count
for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958
when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter
I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I
still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and
I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including
photography which I enjoy doing.
Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade
with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind
the Presidential car?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound
on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at
Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off
the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera
because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell
out there because of the many people I could not tell what position
we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where
we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it.
The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and
I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward
the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade
immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting
to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there,
I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind
him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street
downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination
took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke
and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two
men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming
the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera
for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that
would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly
it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on
the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I
tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and
I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that
rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a
crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came
to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on?
Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you
made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in
was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block
or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short
block, when I heard the first shot.
Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm
intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot
fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired
but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a
reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one
of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I
was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a
second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized
that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were
coming from overhead.
Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be
from what source?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository
Building.
Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a
loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something
had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in
stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School
Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car
stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in
the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the
window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with
their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose,
to determine where the shots were coming from.
Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did
hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at
that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.
Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of
Elm and Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make
the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same
time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass
and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground
had been shot.
Mr. BALL. Did your car stop?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out
of the car.
Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the
intersection, turned onto Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken,
and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and
Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only
thought I had was to get a camera.
Mr. BALL. Did you get one?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our
man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He
was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and
that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been
turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just
around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said,
"Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I
assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When
I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running
up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas
School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only
thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in
that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running
also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and
took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and
they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time
breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I
am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who
they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of
the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the
building.
Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could
recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was
there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you
need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to
shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving
of what happened.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in
the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas
School Depository.
Mr. BALL. Which entrance?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance.
Mr. BALL. On Elm?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some
pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the
building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a
three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last
name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand
when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had
seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over
and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were
arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked
this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir."
I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man."
I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I
asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I
thought his name was Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Was he about 15?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I
would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in
the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving
and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one
firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general
film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see
any face in it that would have been important to this.
Mr. BALL. Leaving the building?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers
arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though,
that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January
when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building,
around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next
10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned
several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was
taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with
ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and
they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the
building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots
were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort
was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and
you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD
The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April
1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson.
Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving,
by the way?
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand?
Mr. CRAWFORD (complying).
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear.
Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been
authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as
you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you
observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court
reporter?
Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk.
Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did
you not, requesting you to give this testimony?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.
Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not
receive it until Monday.
Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas.
Mr. BALL. What was your general education?
Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A.
& M.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of
your occupations?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have
been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here
in Dallas until I went with the county.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas?
Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years.
Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there?
Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where
were you?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk.
Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street?
Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the
corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BALL. You went with whom?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell.
Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you?
Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me.
Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk.
(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.)
Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas?
Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building.
Mr. BALL. What street?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that?
Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's
Elm.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston.
Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of----
Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm.
Mr. BALL. Elm and----
Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record.
Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office
would be considered on Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Right.
Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want
the direction of the intersection?
Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm?
Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse.
Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast
corner of the intersection?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location.
Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection?
Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection.
Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from
where you were standing?
Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection.
Mr. BALL. Directly across?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure
of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.
Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after
that?
Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car
leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and
followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the
Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were
open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner
that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a
backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have
been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the
President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot
followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and
followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's
car----
Mr. BALL. At that time?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service
car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third
shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if
there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff
of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile
and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east
corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was
open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a
glimpse.
Mr. BALL. Which window?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window----
Mr. BALL. On the----
Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I
turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots
they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the
quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the
report.
Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a
movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way
of color or size of what you saw moving?
Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a
profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement
and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either
light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was
found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white,
simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it
was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet
or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe
it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were
stacked just like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window?
Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the
window.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast
corner?
Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and
I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we
should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had
been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going
on the street--I thought our best information would come from that,
so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no
way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a
minute.
Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something
light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like
a profile of a person?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw
it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a
person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown
haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not.
Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on
the 10th of January?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any
impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound
came, the sound of the explosions?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought
it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill
toward the underpass.
Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it
later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other
people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was
reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to
me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not
the sharp crack.
Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was
being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers
or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such
a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots,
where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole
area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm
Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the
time, rather than observing things in the street, probably.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke?
Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those
were shots, they came from that window"?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely
sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I
was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this
quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the
shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them.
Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly
behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the
far east corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could
walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly
under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had
not been anyone apprehended.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up
to Allen Swett and talked to him?
Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20
minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes.
Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you
said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted
Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen
in the sixth floor window?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell
him to search those windows, I think.
Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you
told Allen Swett?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to
have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that
window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was,
I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the
conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself?
Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much.
Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will.
TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL
The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold
up your right hand.
(Complying.)
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before
this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk.
Mr. BALL. For Dallas County?
Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court?
Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the
district courts.
Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born,
where were you raised, what schools did you go to?
Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County,
about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in
1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas
and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial
and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of
Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then.
Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of
the District Court of Dallas County?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you?
Miss MITCHELL. About noontime?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon.
Mr. BALL. Working?
Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records
Building.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the
parade that morning?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade
since we are in the basement.
Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building?
Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Whom were you with?
Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the
building.
Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets?
Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I
was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. Which corner?
Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's
probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions.
Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way----
Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from
the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner;
that would put you on the southeast corner.
Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the
building.
Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner
of the intersection, is that right?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard
after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you
hear?
Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I
watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately
behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of
them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after
the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see
over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned
back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it,
and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was
riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there
were three--the second and third being closer together than the first
and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a
firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police
officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third
report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as
I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from
that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the
people in the cars.
Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were
shots--what were his words exactly?
Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said,
"Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody
could have figured out by then that they were shots.
Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows?
Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters
that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember
whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and
where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which
window he thought he was pointing to.
Mr. BALL. Was he pointing?
Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to
figure out exactly where he was.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything?
Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because
I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start
pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking
at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling
around and then I went back in the office.
Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again?
Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again.
Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply
to what Mr. Crawford said?
Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did.
Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his?
Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when
he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't
remember if he said anything else.
Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes
here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here.
Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I
can what other people were.
Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said?
Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh,
my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said?
Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right.
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of
here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers
could work better.
Mr. BALL. That's when you left?
Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the
office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get
back in very fast.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it
and sign it or do you want to waive signature?
Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short
time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when
the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in
the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was
coming so we could go outside.
Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will
write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you?
Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND
The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland.
Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs.
Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland.
Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify
before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife.
Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later.
Mr. BELIN. In the fall?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation
Co., or corporation, I don't know which.
Mr. BELIN. What does he do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor.
Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18.
Mr. BELIN. When were you married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence?
Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney.
Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon.
Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi.
Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and
Arizona, and I don't know where else.
Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as.
I think he worked in a cafe.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one
or two semesters.
Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school?
Mrs. ROLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep
working, or does he plan to go back to school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when.
Mr. BELIN. To finish high school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think.
Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that
you know of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon
State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere.
Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that
you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what?
Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's.
Mr. BELIN. What was your major?
Mrs. ROWLAND. English.
Mr. BELIN. If you had one?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish.
Mr. BELIN. All three?
Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school.
Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring
in?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and
D's, I think, in other subjects.
Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe
him.
Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report
cards.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.
Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more
background information. After you were married, were you employed at
all or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season
this year, this past year.
Mr. BELIN. Other than that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a
dry goods store.
Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you
were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,----
Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about,
we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like
that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron
Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and----
Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. In September.
Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he
work first at one place and then----
Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't
like it.
Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant.
Mr. BELIN. As what?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly
what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a
department store.
Mr. BELIN. What did he do there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook.
Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook.
Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he
got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job
as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co.,
and he worked there until a few days before we left.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza
Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone
solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman,
and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a
telephone solicitor.
Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did
he work there, approximately?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about
two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about
4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't
very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I
guess.
Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co.
Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you
doing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season,
too.
Mr. BELIN. Were you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.
Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to
school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job
was only part-time----
Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Both.
Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit?
Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was.
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of
President Kennedy?
Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we
officially dropped afterwards.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the
assassination, where were you?
Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of
the records building between Elm and Main Streets.
Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home.
Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about
when to when?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that
morning when we got up, and we walked part way----
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus.
We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too
late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what
time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and
about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about
the man up in the window.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About what time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus.
Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus?
Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.
Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times
very well.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did
you do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand
waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think.
Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?
Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you
figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many
minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45.
Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus
around 11:15 or so?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you
got it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was
about, I guess, 20 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home
shortly before 11?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching,
waiting for the motorcade?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the
motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the
park.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street?
Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side.
Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records
building.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an
elevator there, too.
Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street
fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's
visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about
security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the
School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't
see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking
about at first.
And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently
stepped back, because I didn't see him.
Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.
Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the
western part of the south side?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband
say to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he
was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the
motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told
you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was
what it was.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security
officer?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear
glasses?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes.
Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?
Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people
hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man
was standing in the background.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up,
because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was
holding the rifle at a port arms position.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was
tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then
he was thin.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he
had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by
that he saw this?
Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light
colored shirt or jacket.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other
windows?
Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other
windows or leaning out?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment.
Mr. BELIN. Later on?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the
windows.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any
women.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and
nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.
Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think
was the fourth floor?
Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people
watching, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the
fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth
floor?
Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look
back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I
grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your
husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor,
which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how
much longer did you look back up at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. After that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the
motorcade came by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of
time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking
back for the purpose of seeing the man.
Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the
motorcade came until the time it came?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about
some men who were carrying cameras.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or
standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was
to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book
Depository Building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.
Mr. BELIN. What was he doing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking.
Mr. BELIN. Talking to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the
building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the
street or at the building.
Mr. BELIN. Or at anything?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically
remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything
about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the
man with the rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened
afterward. I mean it was just----
Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was
passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio,
and that is about all.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green
suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not
sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports
jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think.
I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but
it is more of a raincoat.
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he
doesn't.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened
prior to the time the motorcade came by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the
motorcade went by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or
maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say,
because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as
her dress.
And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that
is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and
waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't
recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it
might be a firecracker.
And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more
shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Three.
Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than
the first and second, what did you mean?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first
and second.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came
from or the sound?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad
tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally
assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen
and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.
Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.
Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen
in the window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might
have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything
about the man.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run
to?
Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman
wouldn't let anybody go further.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had
happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman
inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a
pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he
gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in
the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the
records building.
Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police
officer?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was
wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And
then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't
know who they were.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you
stay with your husband?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had
glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I
think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and
he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said
there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he
didn't say there were three shots.
Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area,
and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us
questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.
Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written
statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came
in, three other witnesses who come in.
There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police
and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the
people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband
said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?
Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair.
Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color
the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here,
I think.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept
any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he
saw this man with the gun?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. You mean he----
Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in
the windows of the School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other
people looking out the windows.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on
that same floor looking out the windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there
weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that
could be seen from the outside.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside,
because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.
Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time
you saw the man with the rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well----
Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building,
but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards,
because I can't just stand and stare in one direction.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you
were glancing at other places?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember
whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the
motorcade?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor
were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking
out at an open window.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember?
Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think.
Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw
looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't.
Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth
floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any
time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon
of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the
building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows
on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they
were never open.
Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of
any other windows on the sixth floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did
not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other
people on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how
many people he said he saw looking out of the windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking
out of some windows in the same building.
Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband
said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book
Depository Building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a
newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead.
From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in
to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in
a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he
saw because the man he saw was dark-haired.
Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the
blond-haired man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store.
I am not certain.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly.
Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book
Depository Building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning?
Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was
before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she
came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun
in a rifle case.
Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown
carrying a gun in a rifle case?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they
said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe
they also said he was a blond man.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what
they said, and that is all I know.
Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your
husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right
now? Anything else that your husband said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we
went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home
and he went to work.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he working?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went
to work, and I caught a bus and went home.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The
bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite,
until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning.
Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do
you know, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time
during that day by any law enforcement agency?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day.
Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or
that Sunday?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you
contacted by some law enforcement agency?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally?
Mr. BELIN. You personally.
Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four
times, I think.
Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the
Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday.
Mr. BELIN. The 24th?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not
positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following
Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my
mother's home, and I am not positive how many times.
Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was
contacted?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning,
November 24th?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the
police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was
in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him
specific questions about it and he answered them.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on
that written statement?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him
telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you
remember him telling them anything?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in
the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it
was correct, to the best of his knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that
statement that should be?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any
other windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any
people in any other windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police
officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he
saw?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth
floor, in my presence, that I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.
Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was
with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on
the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another
man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative
question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the
question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your
husband had with any law enforcement agency?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him
that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington.
Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay."
Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he
got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in
front of the Commission?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you
came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said
in front of the Commission?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how
many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I
mean all inclusive.
Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to
go to Washington?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that
week, do you know how many interviews he had?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on
the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in
the southwest corner window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw
anyone else on the sixth floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being
questioned too much by any law enforcement agency?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave
was not taken down?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law
enforcement agencies?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas
Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in
there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Like what?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he
said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me.
Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he
have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret
Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part
of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that
you knew different, because you had seen the report card.
Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average.
Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but
some of his cards didn't have A's altogether.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and
some D's?
Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than
others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony
of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just
from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything
that your husband says?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.
Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any
wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but----
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that
answer it?
Mr. BELIN. I think it does.
Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything
other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say
that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than
he is, something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to
embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth
floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can
to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been
asking these questions.
You and I have never met before?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember.
Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we
started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your
deposition, did we?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your
husband?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained
about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are
concerned?
Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police
officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said,
and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was,
if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't
complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about
anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given?
Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in
any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever
see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr.
Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I
don't know if my husband ever saw it or not.
But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination
that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't
think he has. If he has, he never told me.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You
have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland.
One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read
what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign
it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it
and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington.
Do you care to come down to read it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would.
Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read
it and make any corrections, if you like.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it
rewritten in better English?
Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good,
Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By
corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might
not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will
have to look down their noses at us.
Thank you.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER
The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April
1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise
your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FISCHER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?
Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?
Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor.
Mr. BELIN. For whom?
Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you work?
Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building.
Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building?
Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record,
Elm, and Houston.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?
Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Children?
Mr. FISCHER. Two.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes.
Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to?
Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you
graduated from high school?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is that?
Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at
Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually
attended the school?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school?
Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night
school.
Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?
Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been
working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a
correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.
Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but
you are taking the correspondence course also?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's
office?
Mr. FISCHER. Five years.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22,
1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch,
the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not?
Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do.
Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now?
Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a
college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I
believe. I don't know the name of the college.
Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?
Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of
employment on that day to watch the motorcade?
Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a
quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go
ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in
other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on
down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the
parade was over.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until
about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5
or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside
the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to
find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston
and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade
came by.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and
Elm--approximately?
Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20.
Mr. BELIN. 12:20?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest
corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in
front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the
sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we
were standing right on the curb there.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the
actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not?
Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the
shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see
it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there.
We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have
just looked down the street and seen it.
Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which
would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make
the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on
that curb?
Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of
the parade came around the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that?
Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen
any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before
the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look
at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He
looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something.
And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15
seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of
Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the
corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started
watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds,
because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't
watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He
looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple
underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all
the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never
moved anything. Just was there transfixed.
Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man?
Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in
the fifth or sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this
you saw him in?
Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in?
Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the
front of the building, it would have been to your right.
Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east,
south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this
have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?
Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was
it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side,
or the west part of the south side?
Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would
it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the
third, or the fourth--or what?
Mr. FISCHER. First window.
Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe
his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?
Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the
top of his head.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he
was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a
little forward.
And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been
a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white,
I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a
short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.
Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light
complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?
Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark;
possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it
was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding
hair-line--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair,
because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see
of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a
profile of it, or what was it?
Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I
believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what
direction he was looking at?
Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple
underpass.
Mr. BELIN. Down what street?
Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Down Elm?
Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?
Mr. FISCHER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from
the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It
looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him
because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the
window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like
there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and
the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window
there.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there
that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't
remember seeing any others.
Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or
that you just do not remember seeing any?
Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto
Houston from Main--is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window?
Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window.
Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the
motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be
going?
Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was
in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he
was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what happened?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn
and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up
onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all
the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I
started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other
cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker.
And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or
anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot
rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody
started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot.
At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more,
there must have been just three.
Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a
firecracker, too?
Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like
the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles
fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the
sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much
like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a
firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?
Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a
firecracker or what?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting
at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone
would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was
shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a
real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.
Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?
Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School
Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there
were some railroad cars back in there.
Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I
couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and
up the hill.
Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart?
Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that.
And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds.
Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the
second and the third?
Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were
evenly spaced.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the
shots?
Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running
down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there
were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When
the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running,
some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and
then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and
then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to
the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where
the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were
a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was
on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the
triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and
two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man
said at that time that the President had been shot.
And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up
to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run,
thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed
to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars
and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these
passenger--freight cars were.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then?
Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we
work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And
that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think
he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left.
After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there
for a little while and----
Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the
records building do you feel?
Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot
was fired. Something like that.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the
front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way
we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the
south side of Elm, and then crossed.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming
out of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front;
but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records
building--and then what did you do?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our
office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then
I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a
radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet
that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was
trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.
And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or
10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a
radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still
nobody knew anything.
Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till
1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the
window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book
Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives
in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the
shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the
shooting--or something was wrong with the building.
So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the
only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with
the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do
with it.
About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me
if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff
Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now?
Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?
Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in
there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at
least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both
been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of
the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get
me--because he had told them.
There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people.
They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I
noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two
boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit
the ground when the shots started.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to
be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the
floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that
back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like
he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but
I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box
maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.
Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a
straight-up position?
Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly.
Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell,
but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the
window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been
hard for me to see him at all.
Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at
the sheriff's office--is that it?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an
individual and ask you to try and identify him?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee
Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say?
Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man.
Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?
Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that
I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I
was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that
I gave--but I can't say for sure.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the
picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked
like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know
whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School
Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have
seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would
have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his
complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.
Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the
window or not--or don't you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back
in the shadow of the window.
Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the
same day or on the next day?
Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't
remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I
don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different
between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the
window?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the
color of the hair was of the man in the picture?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it
was definitely brown.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"
Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are
a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown.
It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I
can't think of anything to compare it to.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to
have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair
did he have?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't
have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been
a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown
and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade
of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture
but----
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at
least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like
it's your signature?
Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition
Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be
dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in
that statement that does not appear to be accurate.
(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is
identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now?
Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me
when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement
that doesn't appear to be accurate.
Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be
in his twenties--is that what you told them?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told
me here today that you could see his chest?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his
shoulders.
Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter
in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about
12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people
there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like
I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his
head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his
head.
Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he
had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed?
Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair.
He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean
black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I
said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that,
but--uh.
Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?
Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like
I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.
Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean?
Mr. FISCHER. Black.
Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your
recollection, what color hair did he have?
Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one
way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too
hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure,
just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it
wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that
as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or
whatever you call it--I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you
remember how far the window was open?
Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all
the way open.
Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way
open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case
that is open. Is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening
covered by glass.
Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?
Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window
that raised from the bottom up.
Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or
fully open?
Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see
the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his
shoulders.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a
tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at
about the time you saw the man?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?
Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have
been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember
very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in
the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a
mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed
by the FBI. Do you remember that?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building.
Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or
not?
Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems
like he did.
Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of
the pictures?
Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they
did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it
could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald,
or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.
Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?
Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him
because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look
like to me.
Mr. BELIN. What about his build?
Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat;
whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.
Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a
low forehead--or do you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I
don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you
whether he had a large forehead or not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that
window when you saw him?
Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in
the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred
feet.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have
told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the
motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds
before you first saw the motorcade?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you
saw the motorcade?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I
don't remember saying that but.
Mr. BELIN. But what is the----
Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.
Mr. BELIN. Shortly?
Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.
Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds
or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or
two before you saw the motorcade?
Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less
than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I
turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that
bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that
you haven't related here?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"?
Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the
first time--is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before
we started taking your testimony on the record?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me
your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried
to, in any way, lead you--or so forth?
Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events
happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or
anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we
started taking the deposition that has not been included in this
deposition--that you can think of?
Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
I believe that ends the deposition.
I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We
appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate
your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for
letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS
The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April
9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. EDWARDS. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Your name, please?
Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?
Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla.
Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there?
Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.
Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?
Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior.
Mr. BELIN. You are a senior.
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years?
Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked
here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?
Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?
Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school?
Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College.
Mr. BELIN. For a year?
Mr. EDWARDS. One year.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.
Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall?
Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there.
Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?
Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.
Mr. BELIN. Main Street?
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember?
Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell
you.
Mr. BELIN. Harwood?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Record?
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street?
Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?
Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that
correct?
Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone?
Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.
Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?
Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch?
Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For
a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then
we left.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?
Mr. EDWARDS. Sir?
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?
Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would
be Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the
little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from,
facing the Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now.
Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is
Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you
mean?
Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't
it? Houston comes this way?
Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction.
Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here.
I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on
this map?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow
pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.
Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse?
Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is
Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas
School Book Depository Building.
Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right
there?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of
the map?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here.
Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to
the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the
parkway, is that right?
You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map,
and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going
in the parkway, is that correct?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.
Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's
see if I can show you a picture.
Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.
Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow.
You see it right here?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located?
Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there.
Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on
the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into
the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction
toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?
Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with?
Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.
Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?
Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?
Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.
Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?
Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just
a guess.
Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess.
Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We
would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly
sure about it.
What did you do when you got to this point?
Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.
Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all?
Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas
School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be
looking at the south side of the building?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was
up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in
among boxes.
Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the
building to your right or to your left?
Mr. EDWARDS. To my right.
Mr. BELIN. How near the corner?
Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window.
Mr. BELIN. The corner window there?
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white
man or a Negro?
Mr. EDWARDS. White man.
Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know?
Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?
Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on?
Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.
Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees
up, or what?
Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.
Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?
Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin
or what, if you could tell?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?
Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have?
Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown.
Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?
Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did
you look and see any?
Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any.
Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on
the floor above?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth
floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Third floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Second floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so.
Mr. BELIN. First floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's
department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the
fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a
stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't
see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?
Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out?
Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that
back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather
than the fifth floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I
didn't count the bottom floor.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you
didn't count the bottom floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out
the window?
Mr. EDWARDS. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?
Mr. EDWARDS. They did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?
Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short,
average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?
Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about
this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?
Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was
hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a
joking manner.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you?
Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few
things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at
him, both of us.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him?
Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds.
Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just
start looking somewhere else?
Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else.
Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by?
Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald
Fischer said?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?
Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?
Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said
four, then I thought I heard four.
Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better
introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do
you think the shots came from?
Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea.
Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come
from the building there. Did you really say that or not?
Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of?
Mr. EDWARDS. No.
Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an
opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and
sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it
will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes
no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and
signing.
Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then?
Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL
The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present
at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and
give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy.
May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is
investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we
have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if
anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand
you were on the scene or nearby at that time.
May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under
date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask
you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. HILL. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state
your full name for the record?
Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964?
Mrs. HILL. I have it here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I
must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I
got it Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is
present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs.
Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and
that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed
from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about
noontime?
Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School
Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the
underpass.
Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?
Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the----
Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded
forward?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs.
Hill?
Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been
walking up and down and back and forth.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?
Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.
Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade
passed by?
Mrs. HILL. You mean----
Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just
tell me in your own way what happened.
Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures
with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had
only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a
picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the
camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he
drew even with us.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean?
Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I
jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take
your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and
Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car
looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the
roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because
there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I
know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I
yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me
and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on
the ground and of course there were more shots.
Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether?
Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There
were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or
just a moment's pause, and then I heard more.
Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of
what you described as the first three shots?
Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those
three shots?
Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the
first three shots?
Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps
six, but I know there were more than three.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the
very last shot, will you estimate?
Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on
the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just
immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third
shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down,
they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move,
so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.
Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the
shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and
then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots.
Mrs. HILL. In what way?
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time
lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the
second to the third, or in that manner?
Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I
mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again
or whatever you do with a gun.
Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action?
Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done
with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.
Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your
understanding?
Mrs. HILL. A bolt action.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots,
then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?
Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was
different.
Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence?
Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?
Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear
it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6.
I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or
6.
Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?
Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than
that?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you
recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?
Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat,
like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands
were like this (indicating).
Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap?
Mrs. HILL. No--not really.
Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands?
Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was
like this [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his
left?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face.
Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the
first shot?
Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise
his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a
bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally
at that exact second?
Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't
know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was
riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess
my story is probably colored by what I have heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that
colored your story?
Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots
hit where and everything.
Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit
Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard?
Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr.
Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see
Mrs. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see
him and I knew that someone had been hit.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he
between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was
he?
Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy?
Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that
there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in
the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the
jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat,
two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward?
Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now,
familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the
people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the
Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on
the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of
President Kennedy?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time?
Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor.
Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?
Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with
the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit
because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit
later.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally
appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?
Mrs. HILL. The second.
Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the
second shot?
Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit
someone in the front part of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?
Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted
his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to
my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair
standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that?
Mrs. HILL. On the third shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third
shot?
Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again.
Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you
believe you heard?
Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took
the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and
I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because
I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents
shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot
back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well,
they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you
heard the fourth shot?
Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots
rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it
couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just
a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost
stunned.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you
think the President's car was?
Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further
than a few feet--further down.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the
fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events
were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth
shots which you have testified about?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on
the ground.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you?
Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the
ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there
was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and
I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure
there was just a slight pause before things started moving again.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started
moving again?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene?
Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the
car.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that?
Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I
ran across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. To the----
Mrs. HILL. Other side.
Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away
or walking away or something--I would say he was running.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at
the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right
up on the slope at the top of the slope.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository
Building?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At the west end?
Mrs. HILL. More to the west end.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building
and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point
or farther east than the westernmost point?
Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting
with Houston Street----
Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well.
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing
here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the
questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking
Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves
down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.
Mrs. HILL. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large
building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter
"A" where you were at the time the President went by?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X".
Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here----
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of
the street?
Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there,
but he was past the center of the street and we were----
Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".
Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us.
Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the
President's car went by?
Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a
little way, and I ran behind here.
Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran.
Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just
right--but I ran approximately right up through here.
Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on
the other side of the street.
Mrs. HILL. These steps.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the----
Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site,
there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or
whatever you call it.
Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side----
Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it?
Mrs. HILL. The east of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School
Book Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were
when you first saw that man?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where
he was? He was very close to you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any
space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is
shown here.
Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going?
Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks
to the west?
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything?
Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him?
Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other
people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what
I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I
even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even
connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is
part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your
attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?
Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?
Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand?
Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's
hand.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front?
Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning
and going to the west.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see
him.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.
Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been
visible, wouldn't they?
Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any
recollection of seeing his hands?
Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have
been in the position where they could have been observed?
Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon
in either hand?
Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw
him?
Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?
Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the
reason why I went across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?
Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot.
Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved?
Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him.
Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never
did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the
street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me
turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all
around.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at
him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me,
and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there
and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I
was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some
red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is
embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.
Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you
heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?
Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is
shooting back."
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like?
Mrs. HILL. He wasn't----
Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?
Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any
meaningful description of him?
Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.
Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it
that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully
aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it
seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story,
but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general
build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have
talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his
whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at
that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the
building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by
the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general
impression the shots were coming from.
Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right
in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest
of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was
getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I
went to catch him, for some reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of
the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?
Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious
recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I
had always thought that they came from the knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second
shot came from?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came
from?
Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just
people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one
person shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?
Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way
they were fired--the timing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second
group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the
fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?
Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by
someone else.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general
direction of that knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing
them from that knoll?
Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming
from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service
was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first
group of shots?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of
those shots?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was
starting to run?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on
the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You
know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked
all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward
the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't
see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something
about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got
away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had
really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or
had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he
had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time
I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around
the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade
sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different
directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I
want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody.
I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come
toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up
there where the tracks were.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to
what point--where? About the point of "D" here?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man?
Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had
gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get
away, and which way did he go."
Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?
Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look
down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that
time everyone was screaming and moving around.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground?
Point it out to me on the diagram.
Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and
I saw it right about here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.
Mrs. HILL. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything
more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over
being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the
case?
Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of
your identification of who that man was?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?
Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even
gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the
car.
Mr. SPECTER. In which car?
Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking
me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested
in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I
said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat
between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small
dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us
in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor
or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the
Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on
tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said,
"Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a
dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew
they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my
husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the
record?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything
on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best
procedure to follow, that everything be written down.
Mrs. HILL. Well.
Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called
Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap,"
and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't
know it was going to be taken down.
Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious
when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had
seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would
have to see a dog."
Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?
Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of
people.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this
man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?
Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?
Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any
bigger than Jack Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.
Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?
Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the
impression of a brown hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?
Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?
Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?
Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about
this man and your reason for moving toward him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at
point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from
different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging
them, trying to get back across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?
Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he
had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and----
Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald?
Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave.
She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even
gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things
and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had
been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had
been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows
her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat
the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we
could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get
out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be
in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long
and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when
I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her
camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera,
and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his
hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't
go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until
then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or
anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in
front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until
I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I
wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think
the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because
I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept
telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us,
and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building
at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I
guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we
were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that
everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but
we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would
let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting
things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters?
Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man
from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker.
Mr. SPECTER. From where?
Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think
he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it
was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures
for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house
about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three
or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he
said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day."
Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom
that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more
than any--now, I don't remember where I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the
county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about
John coming to see you in your home.
Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave
an affidavit to the sheriff that day?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government
that day?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to?
Mrs. HILL. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know?
Mrs. HILL. Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret
Service in this case altogether?
Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men
was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they
let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly
were giving a story to the Secret Service men.
Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them?
Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything?
Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the
sheriff's office.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign
anything?
Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because
they just took us in a little room----
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men?
Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have
told me here today?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots
because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but
they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all
from us.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion
after the events on November 22?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal
Government?
Mrs. HILL. The FBI men.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. Several.
Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember?
Mrs. HILL. I don't recall--I was called two or three times at least
after that.
Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who
said he was from the FBI?
Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until
I called back down to check to see.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them
back?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once.
Mr. SPECTER. And about when was that?
Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter--no;
before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and
they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last
Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th--or the 17th?
Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they
had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these
things and, I read it and told them that I had said it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate?
Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was
inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions
he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could
have made what he made out of my statements.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane?
Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about--approximately 4 or 6 weeks ago.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place?
Mrs. HILL. At New York.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at
the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone
conversation?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next
week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed
so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was
doing in this case.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception
that he went further into the day's activities at the police station,
and at the courthouse.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at
the courthouse?
Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of
questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were
in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I
mean, this was to us a police station.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to
those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things
you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about.
Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so
many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really
don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in
telling me all the things you told Mark Lane.
Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement?
Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke--just relax.
Mrs. HILL. I would except, I don't have one.
Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can.
Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the
witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record
show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding.
When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things
you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified
about.
Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that--I do want to have you--because I
hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you
about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John
Coker was with.
Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that?
Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I
digressed and got on that.
Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the
assassination?
Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion?
Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take,
and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they
were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their
questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical
situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is
the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a
wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told
them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had--I
had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some
reasonable doubt that I--that Oswald did not do all the shooting and
that all these shots did not come from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that?
Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me.
Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions?
Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them
what I thought would have had to happen in that situation.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would
lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best
recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the
assassin was, if you have any idea on that question?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came
from the knoll, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the
shots?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away.
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that
came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away?
And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting?
Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think
that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have
already told me about?
Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your
reaction was at the time.
Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was
more than one person shooting, as I said before.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me
about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that
was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why
you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the
shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then I asked
you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll
exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought
that might be the case.
Mrs. HILL. Could be.
Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings
other than those we have already talked about, which would make you
think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal
observations, recollections or impressions.
Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television
interview which you consider important?
Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused.
Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations,
and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them?
Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have
heard here and there voiced by other people.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on
those various theories?
Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come
to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is
going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We
want to be ready for it."
Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on?
Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV
either.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview
which you now consider important?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened,
and particularly since I have been questioned these other times.
Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that
I have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings
that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and
frankly, I would either like to say it again or something----
Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again?
Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning
again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my
mind----
Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or
confused by that?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say
about that television interview?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did
you tell him other than that which you have told me here today?
Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the
pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and
that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing
across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of
it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting
tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and
so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say--$10,000 or
something like this for this picture.
We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a
representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell
that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a
lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't
have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had
let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could
reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it
could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought
it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to
keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and
that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about
it, and Mary was getting scared----
Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way?
Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the
original picture, but they had already--AP and UP had already picked it
up because Featherstone stole it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for?
Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture?
Mrs. HILL. This is it.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead.
Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and
Mary was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we
were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he
had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept
standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get out." We
kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "We'll
get it back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of
the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was
told--that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red
raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent
on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out,
"I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does
your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in there."
He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they
had been looking for us.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mrs. HILL. This man.
Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.
Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just
about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and
we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the
pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because
they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the
two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that
time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were
right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long,
and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was
held and I told him, "Yes."
Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that?
Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane.
Mr. SPECTER. If you were held?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I
told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was
just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting
the man intimidate us that had no authority.
Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I
remember clearly that I gave him his name.
Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of
there and I talked with a man----
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told
Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service
man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They
keep saying three shots--three shots," and I said, "I know I heard
more. I heard from four to six shots anyway."
He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more
shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three
shots is all that we are willing to say right now."
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you
that there were only three shots in any other way than that?
Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say
three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say.
Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way?
Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane.
Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them----
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way?
Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except
Decker and the President.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said.
Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me--I was asked did I know that a bullet
struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do
you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I
told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of
a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing,
which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete?
Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?
Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know
anything about that?
Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of
the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet,
other than that--I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you
stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had stay there." He said
something--he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him
I wasn't threatened, but--he said, "How do you know you were held?"
Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice.
At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go
down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me,
and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit
the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were
Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There
were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back
and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my
arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner
saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here
just a little while." They did make us go back in there.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from?
Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just
deputies--they weren't FBI or Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the
sheriff?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that
they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any
time--" I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say
something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing
that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he
said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service
that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was
taken--I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--I told
him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong
about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't."
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong--Featherstone or Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that--I told Mr. Lane that Mr.
Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said,
"No; don't say that any more on the air."
Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?"
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I
mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to
tell anyone"----
Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the
Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about
it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I
ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as I
can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day,
that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because
what he gave the Commission was basically true.
Mr. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Except for what----
Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there.
Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see
why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can
see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he,
because he was listening to me--how the Commission could take it to
mean maybe something else?
Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission
could take them to mean maybe something else?
Mrs. HILL. Yes----
Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context--did
Mark Lane repeat them out of context?
Mrs. HILL. To me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it
wasn't everything I said.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took
your comments out of context?
Mrs. HILL. So far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with
Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know
about?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about
the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told
me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when
you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview
you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th
of March?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any
Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have
already told me about?
Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some
questions about your own background--first of all I would like you to
tell me how old you are, for the record?
Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three.
Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of
the country or what?
Mrs. HILL. Where am I from?
Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from?
Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma.
Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma?
Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you married?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being
married at this moment?
Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce.
Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you?
Mrs. HILL. I have two--a boy 12 and a girl 10.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?
Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist
University in Shawnee.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school?
Mrs. HILL. 1948.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college?
Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time?
Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for
the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the
Dallas Board of Education.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name?
Mrs. HILL. Lollis.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation?
Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately
IBM.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me
which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition.
Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission?
Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the
records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be
called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the
distinction of having been an eye witness.
Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather--I mean, it's not
something you are--you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part
of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity,
because--I think my children will be interested to know that someday
that I was in it someway.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are
no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript
will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington
and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might
talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even
conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in
Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we
have the basic information from you which we need.
Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to
Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it
is absolutely necessary.
Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much.
Mrs. HILL. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was
used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No.
5.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5,
for identification.)
TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER
The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MILLER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record.
Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?
Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town.
Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas?
Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas?
Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school?
Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you work?
Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King
Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. &
P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to
Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there?
Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958.
Mr. BELIN. What do you do now?
Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff
compiler.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which
was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas?
Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau.
Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?
Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal.
Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located?
Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston
Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they
use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city
park there.
Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all,
or not?
Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of
that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street?
Mr. MILLER. It would be south.
Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street?
Mr. MILLER. Four blocks.
Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston?
Mr. MILLER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade
came by?
Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the
Main Street side.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three
underpasses there?
Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce,
and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that
is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and
part freeway?
Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of
underpass.
Mr. BELIN. Where you were?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get there?
Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by?
Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade?
Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew?
Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who
is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of
other employees I have seen in the building other than myself.
Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew?
Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there?
Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge.
Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come
by?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on
Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street.
Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is
when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it?
Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle
backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see?
Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was
two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't
know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall
forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what,
I don't know exactly what she said.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is
a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if
anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or
see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there,
so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across
the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad
tracks.
So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible
take off fast.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding?
Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a
convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible
it was.
Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?
Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would
say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was
looking at him over toward that incline.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw.
Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was
a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the
curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right
behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious
movements of any kind over there?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad
tracks, that you hadn't seen before?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right
at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about
5 or 10 feet behind us.
Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if
you can remember?
Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe
more, maybe less.
Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the
vicinity at all on the railroad tracks?
Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on
the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he
was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and
he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the
police officer made him go back down.
Where he went to, I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. When was this?
Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along.
Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand?
Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you
described? About how old he was, or anything?
Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties.
Mr. BELIN. Tall or short?
Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him
coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back.
Mr. BELIN. So he went back down?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from?
Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He
was from our left, from around behind that parking lot.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything
on the railroad tracks at any time?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the
police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started
searching.
Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw?
Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any
way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination?
Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else.
My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly
what all did happen for sure.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did
we?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately
taking your testimony under oath, is that correct?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this
deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive
the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your
signing. What would be your preference?
Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed----
Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed.
Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference.
Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You
can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here
again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and
sign.
Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage
to not have to take off.
Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you
very much.
There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on
the sketch where you were.
Mr. MILLER. Okay.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I
am going to try and get this thing oriented here.
Here is Houston Street running north this way.
There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway
overpass.
Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing.
Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I
have put there, is that right?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of
Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BELIN. All right, sir.
Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY
The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly.
Mr. BALL. What is your address?
Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling].
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal.
Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken?
Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth.
Mr. BALL. How many years ago?
Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now.
Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have?
Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade.
Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general
way--you don't need to go into great detail?
Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916.
Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then?
Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal
Co.?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day?
Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the
other end.
Mr. BALL. What was that?
Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor.
Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?
Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday.
Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street?
Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there
together to see the parade.
Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office?
Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop.
Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation?
Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor.
Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.?
Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go?
Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass?
Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there.
Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over
Elm, over Main, or over Commerce?
Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. REILLY. We were between them.
Mr. BALL. Between what streets?
Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main.
Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of
another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is
north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.
Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the
overpass.
Mr. REILLY. We were between the two.
Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and
make a mark and show me where you were standing?
Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there?
Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass.
Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters
up there and it was about like that, I guess.
Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there.
Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by
Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there
when the motorcade came along?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you?
Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney.
Mr. BALL. And what are his initials?
Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd.
Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it?
Mr. REILLY. I think so.
Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.?
Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers.
Mr. BALL. Who else was with him?
Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I
don't know their names?
Mr. BALL. What are their names?
Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them.
Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland?
Mr. REILLY. We were together.
Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there?
Mr. REILLY. We were together.
Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you?
Mr. REILLY. And me.
Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men?
Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they
were.
Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there.
Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is----
Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their
name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a
while to put in lamps.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named
Skelton there?
Mr. REILLY. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller?
Mr. REILLY. No.
Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location?
Mr. REILLY. All right close together.
Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there?
Mr. REILLY. One behind me.
Mr. BALL. One behind you?
Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks.
Mr. BALL. That would be where?
Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us.
Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there?
Mr. REILLY. On the far side.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"?
Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side.
Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark
down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you
remember it.
Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here.
Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing
behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along
here, but just how far back, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers
were standing.
Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure,
I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing?
Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him.
Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8."
Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of
you?
Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me.
Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and
Commerce"--this other police officer was near what?
Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was
two of them up there.
Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you?
Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and
west--these streets.
Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south.
Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one
here----
Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there,
was there?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. One was closer than the other one?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How close was the one that was closer to you?
Mr. REILLY. I have an idea about 8 or 10 feet.
Mr. BALL. And how far away was the other one?
Mr. REILLY. About the width of that overpass across--75 or 80 feet
across there.
Mr. BALL. One was 8 or 10 feet from you, and the other one was 75 feet
from you and they were both behind you?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street?
Mr. REILLY. No; not until it turned and started to come under the
underpass.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did you first see it?
Mr. REILLY. When it turned off of Houston Street and started around.
Mr. BALL. Onto Elm Street?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you saw the President's car, when it
turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How many people were there on the overpass at the time--at
that time?
Mr. REILLY. Just what I told you.
Mr. BALL. Tell me again.
Mr. REILLY. Well, there was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and those two
fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all I remember seeing
out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear something?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. REILLY. Three shots.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from; what direction?
Mr. REILLY. It seemed to me like they come out of the trees.
Mr. BALL. What trees?
Mr. REILLY. On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there.
Mr. BALL. On the north side of Elm--on what corner?
Mr. REILLY. Well, where all those trees are--you've never been down
there?
Mr. BALL. Yes; I've been there, but you tell me--I want you to tell me
because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing.
Mr. REILLY. Well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up
there--it's to the north of Elm Street--up the slope.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons fly?
Mr. REILLY. No; I didn't pay no attention to that.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?
Mr. REILLY. I just stood there a few minutes and then I went on down to
the shop.
Mr. BALL. Which way did you walk?
Mr. REILLY. South.
Mr. BALL. South?
Mr. REILLY. Toward the post office.
Mr. BALL. Your shop is down south of that place?
Mr. REILLY. Yes; it's the other side of the station.
Mr. BALL. Who walked with you?
Mr. REILLY. Nobody.
Mr. BALL. You walked alone?
Mr. REILLY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Reilly. This will be written up and
you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your
signature if you wish.
Which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want
to waive your signature?
Mr. REILLY. No; I'll do anything you want me to.
Mr. BALL. Well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do
you want to do?
Mr. REILLY. I'll sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right.
This young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down
here and sign it. How is that?
Mr. REILLY. Well, will I have to come back?
Mr. BALL. Yes; you will.
Mr. REILLY. It is hard for me to get off.
Mr. BALL. It is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is
inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as Exhibit A to
your deposition.
Mr. REILLY. All right.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Reilly Exhibit A," for
identification.)
TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN
The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and
Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?
Mr. BROWN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROWN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please.
Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. BROWN. Policeman.
Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman?
Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training?
Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I
completed 12 years of schooling, high school.
Mr. BALL. High school?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio;
Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5
months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually
when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then,
let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and
then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force.
Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on
duty?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway
service road.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm?
Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm?
Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What does it cross?
Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make
that turn off Elm and go up.
Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a
little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?
Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a
road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm
goes under the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be
your position. You were appointed to this particular spot?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the
highway?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the
service road both go under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. BROWN. James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under
the underpass?
Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?
Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to
easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a
20° angle to the right.
Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?
Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.
Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight
from where you were located?
Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming
and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we
probably could see would be cars.
Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and
going down toward the underpass south?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You could see those?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this
location?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward
and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?
Mr. BROWN. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. That's me.
Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?
Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?
Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his
three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. On his motor?
Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad
detectives come up there and talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Underneath?
Mr. BALL. No; up above.
Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to
walk.
Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us.
Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you
know.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.
Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't.
Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your
vision to the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level
we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't
have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston
Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would
you like me to tell you?
Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot
of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did
because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?
Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this
overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there.
It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they
were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at
least it smelled like it to me.
Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that
Texas----
Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?
Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?
Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?
Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that
building because actually it seemed to come from there.
Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because
they just seemed to all take off.
Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way
between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what
they call the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the
motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade,
I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on
ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it
passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer
in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like
a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the
back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened;
of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the
fact it did.
Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept
checking that area through there and, of course, there were people
all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad
right-of-way through there.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the
point where Elm goes underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area?
Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and
later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book
Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those
cars parked around there, which we did.
Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked?
Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there
was several cars parked all around that building.
Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five
officers taking license numbers.
Mr. BALL. How long were you around there?
Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass
and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there
until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall
and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you
can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your
signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish?
Mr. BROWN. You mean today?
Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so.
Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer?
Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have?
Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign
it----
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and
sign it. It is your option; you can do either way.
Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it.
Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much.
TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED
The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your
deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling).
Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to
have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a
north and south direction?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and
south, doesn't it?
Mr. BROWN. Right.
Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses?
Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here--this TP Railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?
Mr. BROWN. Right--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position
on the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the
tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each
side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end
and we would walk the tracks and come around there.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on
Houston and Elm Street?
Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position?
Mr. BROWN. I would be--approximately in the center. (Instrument marked
by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there.
Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where
Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass--you
don't recall seeing anybody?
Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there.
Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers.
Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers--would be the only
ones I saw.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have
positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram?
Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark
that as Brown Exhibits--the X marks the position of Brown, is that
correct?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much.
Mr. BROWN. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown
Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming.
Mr. BROWN. All right.
TESTIMONY OF ROYCE G. SKELTON
The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth?
Mr. SKELTON. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, for the record?
Mr. SKELTON. Royce G. Skelton.
Mr. BALL. What is your business?
Mr. SKELTON. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work?
Mr. SKELTON. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and where did you come from?
Mr. SKELTON. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?
Mr. SKELTON. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I
graduated from Wichita Falls High School.
Mr. BALL. Tell me where you went to school.
Mr. SKELTON. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at
Midwestern University.
Mr. BALL. And when did you go to work for the railroad?
Mr. SKELTON. February 1, 1963.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?
Mr. SKELTON. Mail clerk.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade
of the President?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20--I
think it was 12:15, or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down there with?
Mr. SKELTON. Austin Miller and myself.
Mr. BALL. Where does he work?
Mr. SKELTON. He is a mail clerk also in the same company.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand to watch the parade?
Mr. SKELTON. Well, we were directly over Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. Directly over Elm?
Mr. SKELTON. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on
the street.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else there on the overpass?
Mr. SKELTON. There were quite a few people up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know any of them?
Mr. SKELTON. Well, I know by sight--I knew the electrician, an old man
that's an electrician.
Mr. BALL. Frank Reilly?
Mr. SKELTON. Is that his name?
Mr. BALL. The man that was here a moment ago--his name is Reilly.
Mr. SKELTON. I know him when I see him.
Mr. BALL. Yes----
Mr. SKELTON. And Austin Miller, of course.
Mr. BALL. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I
see them around there.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officers there?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes; this man right here--they say it was him--I don't
recall whether it was or not.
Mr. BALL. Who--Mr. Brown?
Mr. SKELTON. The one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was
the one up there, but I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You didn't recognize him there?
Mr. SKELTON. No; I didn't recognize him.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you saw some police officers up there?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?
Mr. SKELTON. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in
the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple
underpass.
Mr. BALL. By "far side," you mean where?
Mr. SKELTON. It would be back on this side.
Mr. BALL. It would be south?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it?
Mr. BALL. Elm runs east and west.
Mr. SKELTON. It would be the west side.
Mr. BALL. It would be west?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on
Stemmons--I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad
overpass on Stemmons.
Mr. BALL. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad
overpass?
Mr. SKELTON. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw.
Mr. BALL. And how many men did you see standing right near on the
railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately?
Mr. SKELTON. Eight, including the officer--eight or nine.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag
turn.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear something soon after that?
Mr. SKELTON. Just about the same time the car straightened up--got
around the corner--I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time
they were shots.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. SKELTON. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from
where I was.
Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were
standing?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right
there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they
were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see
the smoke coming up off the cement.
Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what
direction?
Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car.
Mr. BALL. From the President's car?
Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't
distinguish because it was too far away.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?
Mr. SKELTON. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the
President was shot.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. SKELTON. I think I heard four--I mean--I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. You think you heard four?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot?
Mr. SKELTON. Not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and
everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio.
We couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the President had
been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked
us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said
he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the
sheriff's office.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at
all.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and
submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can
waive your signature.
Which do you want to do?
Mr. SKELTON. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right.
Mr. BALL. That is fine. Thank you very much.
Mr. SKELTON. There's one thing I could say--you have that other report?
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. SKELTON. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the
pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of
where you say Oswald was.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that.
Tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke?
Mr. SKELTON. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to
the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I
heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I
take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the President's car
on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from
the building.
Mr. BALL. You mean there was some smoke in the building?
Mr. SKELTON. No; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit
with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread.
Mr. BALL. Which way did it spread?
Mr. SKELTON. It spread just right in line, like you said.
Mr. BALL. I haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was?
Mr. SKELTON. Like I said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know,
in a direct line from the Texas Depository.
Mr. BALL. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is
that right?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. All right. Thanks very much.
I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were
standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no
attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing.
Mr. SKELTON. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as
requested by Counsel Ball).
Mr. BALL. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where
you were standing with your friend?
Mr. SKELTON. Approximately--yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around
there?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard
people say they did, but I didn't.
Mr. BALL. But you did see something light on the street?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. About where?
Mr. SKELTON. A bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion
[referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here
[indicating on diagram].
Mr. BALL. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the
first Skelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark
here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go?
Mr. SKELTON. Just like it was going there.
Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray
was going.
Mr. SKELTON. (Marks the diagram with arrow.)
Mr. BALL. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton
exhibit A and attach it to your deposition.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for
identification)
Mr. BALL. Thank you and that is all.
Mr. SKELTON. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF S. M. HOLLAND
The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964
in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his
attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison.
Mr. STERN. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be
sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HOLLAND. I do.
Mr. STERN. Sit down, please.
You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence?
The Reporter. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission
asking you to come and testify today?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the
facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want
your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination
from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your
name and residence address?
Mr. HOLLAND. S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street, Irving, Tex.
Mr. STERN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HOLLAND. Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad.
Mr. STERN. How long have you been employed by that organization?
Mr. HOLLAND. Union Terminal since 1938.
Mr. STERN. Now on Friday November 22, will you describe what you did
concerning the President's visit and where you were?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a
plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had
some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a
parade, and I left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to
the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back
up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass.
That is the railroad people.
Mr. STERN. Where is your office Mr Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND. At the Union Terminal Station.
Mr. STERN. Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile, a very
short distance.
Mr. STERN. And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3
altogether?
Mr. HOLLAND. Two--there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in
plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.
Mr. STERN. You don't know what his affiliation was?
Mr. HOLLAND. I know he was a plainclothes detective or FBI agent or
some thing like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back
and after lunch I would go up there.
Mr. STERN. Approximately what time did you arrive up there?
Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12,
and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at
the Union Terminal, and department so-and-so.
Mr. STERN. Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then
until 12:30?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there
then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Reilly?
Mr. HOLLAND. Reilly.
Mr. STERN. Who was----
Mr. HOLLAND. R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn.
Mr. STERN. Luke?
Mr. HOLLAND. Winburn.
Mr. STERN. And----
Mr. HOLLAND. And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car
department.
Mr. STERN. Johnson.
Mr. HOLLAND. And there was another fellow who worked at the car
department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name.
Mr. STERN. That makes six people so far. Are these all employees of----
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Of the terminal?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the
Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I
do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business.
Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee,
and one was a T. & P. employee.
Mr. STERN. Could you give me their full names?
Mr. HOLLAND. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad.
Mr. STERN. You don't know the names of those particular men?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; I don't.
Mr. STERN. Did you see them here today?
Mr. HOLLAND. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification
from them.
Mr. STERN. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen
that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just
before----
Mr. HOLLAND. No; neither one of those.
Mr. STERN. Did you recognize either of those two men?
Mr. HOLLAND. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an
electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver.
Mr. STERN. The electrician, do you know his name?
Mr. HOLLAND. Frank Reilly.
Mr. STERN. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't
notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you.
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I
guess--Davey Cowzert was up there, too.
Mr. STERN. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize
either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as
being people who were on the overpass that day?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. HOLLAND. There was two people I did recognize and that was the
cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up
there with me.
Mr. STERN. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was
on the triple overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else.
Mr. HOLLAND. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert.
Mr. STERN. Is he also an employee?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; he is.
Mr. STERN. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time
the Presidential motorcade----
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around
the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me--why in the
world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around
the fence to what was happening.
Mr. STERN. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police
officers were on the overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that
time.
Mr. STERN. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the
Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on
the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following
employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr.
Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other
man?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two
employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago,
by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I
can't remember who it was or their names, because----
Mr. STERN. Before the motorcade started?
Mr. HOLLAND. Before the motorcade started.
Mr. STERN. These were people you recognized as employees?
Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I
think he was asking for credentials.
Mr. STERN. The uniformed policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep
them----
Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being
terminal or railroad employees?
Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose
for going up there.
Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's
motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass
that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad
employees, or as a policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a
few came up there right in the last moments.
Mr. STERN. There were? Tell us about that.
Mr. HOLLAND. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people
up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few
minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their
identification, and----
Mr. STERN. Is this just about the time of the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there
was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself.
Mr. STERN. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the
police?
Mr. HOLLAND. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked
by this policeman for identification?
Mr. HOLLAND. I think everyone was checked by some person.
Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the
overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18
people.
Mr. STERN. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?
Mr. HOLLAND. Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail.
Mr. STERN. Turning right off of Main onto Houston?
Mr. HOLLAND. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto
Houston.
Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you
were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is
where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass
over Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. And where, in relation to the concrete fence that----
Mr. HOLLAND. Picket fence or concrete?
Mr. STERN. No; the concrete.
Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, the concrete banister?
Mr. STERN. The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister?
Mr. HOLLAND. I was; would you like to see the exact location?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HOLLAND. This is my son standing in the exact location I was in
[indicating].
Mr. STERN. Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit
B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph
you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position
at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the
motorcade came into view.
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you
indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were
standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two
police officers who were on the overpass?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was
standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me.
Mr. STERN. Put a "2" where you believe he was standing.
Mr. HOLLAND. He was standing in close enough so that he could see,
but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think,
unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned
there. I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time
I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about
[indicating].
Mr. STERN. Standing almost directly behind you?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all
railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately
before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't
know, but--because I was watching them.
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you
indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people
were who were on the overpass at this time.
Mr. HOLLAND. Well----
Mr. STERN. Were they all standing in one group?
Mr. HOLLAND. There was a pretty close group between this column here,
and this place right in there. In other words, if I can--had a shot of
it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one.
Mr. STERN. What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the
overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other.
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be
the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or
something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get
to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in
here, over to right in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN. All right. Now----
Mr. HOLLAND. And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here
to this [indicating].
Mr. STERN. That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that
runs from the end of the concrete banister?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Over to a little----
Mr. HOLLAND. Little house there.
Mr. STERN. Little----
Mr. HOLLAND. What do they call that thing?
Mr. MORRISON. I don't know.
Mr. STERN. Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main
Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young
ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge--would say
they were standing about here [indicating].
Mr. STERN. Put No. 4 there, please. Fine.
Mr. HOLLAND. And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the
President was waving to the people on this side [indicating].
Mr. STERN. That is the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; on the north side.
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. HOLLAND. And she was looking in this direction [indicating].
Mr. STERN. "She," is Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HOLLAND. His wife. And about that time----
Mr. STERN. Was looking in a southern direction?
Mr. HOLLAND. In the southern direction.
Mr. STERN. South side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. And about that time he went over like that [indicating],
and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could
tell.
Mr. STERN. Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward
and raised your right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND. Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.
Mr. STERN. With his right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND. His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.
Mr. STERN. What did it sound like?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath
this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from
underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a
few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that
[indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr. STERN. With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND. Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN. To his right?
Mr. HOLLAND. And another report rang out and he slumped down in his
seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over
here [indicating]. The girls standing--now one of them was taking a
picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned
around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she
realized what was happening, I guess.
Now, I mean, that was apparently that--she turned back around, and by
the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in--I'd say
along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN. How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND. I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the
floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second----
Mr. STERN. Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND. I heard a third report and I counted four shots and
about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of
trees--[indicating].
Mr. STERN. Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm
Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. These trees right along here [indicating].
Mr. STERN. Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees
you are referring to.
Mr. HOLLAND. Right in there. (Indicating.)
There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I
can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above
the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this
location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke,
like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that
is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous
reports or shots.
Mr. STERN. What number would that have been in the----
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, that would--they were so close together.
Mr. STERN. The second and third or the third and fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Mr. STERN. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were
definitely four reports.
Mr. STERN. You have no doubt about that?
Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing
that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of
of the FBI several days after?
Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's
office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there
were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at
that time?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. You were certain then?
Mr. HOLLAND. I was certain then and I--in that statement I believe that
I----
Mr. STERN. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either
three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the
agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty
well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever
took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they
were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six
Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of
smoke and heard the report from under those trees.
Mr. STERN. Did you realize that these were shots then?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.
Mr. STERN. You did?
Mr. HOLLAND. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.
Mr. STERN. What did you then do?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, immediately after the shots was fired, I run around
the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone
up there behind the fence.
Mr. STERN. That is the picket fence?
Mr. HOLLAND. That is the picket fence.
Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was
just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and
I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this
fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15
policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around
there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the
office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it,
and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to
the office and took me back up to the courthouse.
Mr. STERN. Did he know you personally?
Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He
didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at
the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the
statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out
the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that
policeman.
I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately
after the motorcade had passed through there.
Mr STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if
you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or
three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I
was.
Mr. STERN. East on Elm?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have
the least idea that it was up any higher, but I thought the shot was
coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it
sounded like to me from where I was.
Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a
square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I
take it, that the shots were coming from your area?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far
as the sound was concerned?
Mr. HOLLAND. As far as the sound was concerned they did not.
Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any
way unusual?
Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, no; no.
Mr. STERN. All right. Off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy
of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit
you made that you described a few moments ago?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Would you read that.
Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was
inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was
standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was
coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I
heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over
and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke
come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot
but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the
arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over
and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to
him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret
Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped
back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is
spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come
back and tell Bill."
That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.
Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was.
Mr. HOLLAND. Stand there and watch two or three men get killed----
Mr. STERN. Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots,
thought you heard four shots at that time?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. HOLLAND. But, two of them was rather close together, though.
Mr. STERN. So close do you think that might have been one shot?
Mr. HOLLAND. No, it was four.
Mr. STERN. You are clear there were four?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; it was different sounds, different reports.
Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would
like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?
Mr. MORRISON. Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't
then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was
a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down,
and a spot. I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had
been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them
about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the
bumper of that station wagon.
Mr. STERN. This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well,
why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would
have been.
Mr. HOLLAND. If we could call this the arcade [indicating]----
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. HOLLAND. And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about
here [indicating].
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. MORRISON. That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence,
wouldn't it?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car
would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which
would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the
trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location.
Mr. STERN. All right. And this was a station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND. Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the
time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law
enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that
they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had
been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy.
Mr. STERN. Tracks you saw in the mud?
Mr. HOLLAND. It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted
them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one
location. It was just----
Mr. STERN. And then you saw some mud on the bumper?
Mr. HOLLAND. Mud on the bumper in two spots.
Mr. STERN. As if someone had cleaned his foot, or----
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on
the bumper to see over the fence.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down
in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you
could----
Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall the----
Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location.
Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you----
Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes.
Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day?
Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I
couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I
have thought about it a lot of times since then.
Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the
station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the
rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of
your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was
just a beehive.
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the
Dallas Police officers about it?
Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did.
Mr. STERN. This is really the first time----
Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I
remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember
that, but I don't think I did.
Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did.
Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that?
Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it
because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of
everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went
on back to my office.
Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were
fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?
Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.
Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Or, that area?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to
searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there
then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the
tracks there in one little spot.
Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the
shots were fired?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the
cars.
Mr. STERN. In front of the cars----
Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I
came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked
back down looking around, just like the rest of them.
Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4
minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.
Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are
regularly parked?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and
people over to the courthouse. They park in there.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys'
cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in
there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.
Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in
that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the
middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in
his hand.
Mr. STERN. Toward----
Mr. HOLLAND. The location that----
Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke?
Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to
ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and
he run up the rest of the way on foot.
Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the----
Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the----
Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired?
Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired.
Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle
down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his
pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over
the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his
motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there
the rest of the way with his----
Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the
fence.
Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline?
Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened.
Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I
am tickled.
Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here
today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and
you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if
you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly
to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you
prefer.
Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon
as his transcript is ready to read.
Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the
authorities in any way?
Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will.
Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up?
Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will.
Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal
friends for over 10 years, haven't we?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought
you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less
nervous?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went
over to that sheriff's office that afternoon.
Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all.
Mr. STERN. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER
The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FOSTER. I do.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in
and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was
established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff
counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions
about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your address?
Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Patrolman?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department?
Mr. FOSTER. Nine years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro.
Mr. BALL. What was your education?
Mr. FOSTER. Well----
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro.
Mr. BALL. How far through school?
Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. FOSTER. Service.
Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy----
Mr. FOSTER. Army.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here.
Mr. BALL. On the police department?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the
Dallas Police Department?
Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of
accidents.
Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all
unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL. What are they?
Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER. All right.
(Off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about
the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south
curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?
Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.
Mr. BALL. Where was he?
Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. You were on the east side?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we
will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition.
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and
south direction, is that right?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book
Depository Building?
Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there.
Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it
down below the Terminal.
Mr. BALL. There are yards south?
Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating].
Mr. BALL. That is north and west?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And also south?
Mr. FOSTER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it?
Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto
Houston.
Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time.
Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing?
Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass
over Elm Street there. About the south curb.
Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were
standing and write your initials right next to that "X".
J.--what are the initials?
Mr. FOSTER. J. W.
Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing.
Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it
turned?
Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the
overpass there with me.
Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel
off of that overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you do that?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there.
Mr. BALL. Were there many people?
Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11.
Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?
Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister.
Mr. BALL. The east banister?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me.
Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the
general area where they were standing?
Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating].
Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people
were standing?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that
day?
Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side.
Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was his name?
Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.
Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the
position you have indicated?
Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be
on the west side of the banister.
Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car
passed--turned onto Elm from Houston.
Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the
track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a
large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the
second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was
happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move
around. I ran after I saw what was happening.
Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening?
Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head
looked just like it blew up.
Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to
the left--around to the bookstore.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source
of the sounds, the direction of the sounds?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston
Streets.
Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the
overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there?
Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore.
Mr. BALL. Immediately?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that?
Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it.
Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the
bookstore at that time?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather
back in that area.
Mr. BALL. At that time?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west
of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?
Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent
them back down the roadway.
Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building,
what did you do?
Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one
came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check
the--all the railroad cars down there.
Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant?
Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars?
Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to
report back to Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you
thought the shots came from?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them?
Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and
Houston.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to
Sawyer?
Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant?
Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could
find where any of the shots hit.
Mr. BALL. Find anything?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at
the location.
Mr. BALL. Hit the turf?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place?
Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole
cover right at the corner and----
Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole
cover. Do you recognize that picture?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there.
Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the
turf right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on
the concrete, right in the corner.
Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw
that?
Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating].
Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the
position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Went into the turf?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet?
Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot?
Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location.
Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture?
Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let
them take it. Can I see the picture?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture?
Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture.
Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A"
and "B" now.
Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your
signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or
you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer?
Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter.
Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice.
Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and
sign it.
Mr. FOSTER. All right.
Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please.
Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?
Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the
overpass?
Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees?
Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they
had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were
employees.
Mr. BALL. Okay.
TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE
The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WHITE. I do.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. WHITE. J. C. White.
Mr. BALL. What is your residence?
Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite.
Mr. BALL. And your occupation?
Mr. WHITE. Policeman.
Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. For a request to----
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your----
Mr. WHITE. Captain.
Mr. BALL. Which captain?
Mr. WHITE. Lawrence.
Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts
and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.
We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have
that might aid us in that investigation.
I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am
authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During
the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and
the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of
some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry
if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the
reason you are here.
You are willing to testify, are you not?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it.
Mr. WHITE. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you.
Mr. WHITE. Okay.
Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born?
Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex.
Mr. BALL. How far through school?
Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army.
Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army?
Mr. WHITE. About 3 years.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do?
Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus.
Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus?
Mr. WHITE. 6 years.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department.
Mr. BALL. How long ago?
Mr. WHITE. 1956.
Mr. BALL. And what are you now?
Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator.
Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as
they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the
north curb of Main? That would be----
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can
use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram
that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks
and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want
you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on
the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it.
You have made an "X".
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main?
Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main.
Mr. BALL. The north curb?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. North curb of Main?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?
Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. WHITE. None.
Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around
noon?
Mr. WHITE. Not on my side.
Mr. BALL. They did not?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the
overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass,
didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.
Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad
company?
Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on
the rails.
Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the
triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train
passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the
procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and I did not
see it.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel
over on the--would it be the----
Mr. WHITE. East side?
Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many people?
Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Didn't?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going
underneath?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest
side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book
store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes
they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I
stood out there and worked traffic.
Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or
anything?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Making noise?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train.
Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for
your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature.
Which do you wish to do?
Mr. WHITE. You said a while ago to him it would be written up like
this? Is that correct?
Mr. BALL. No, it will be written up in the form of a deposition.
Mr. WHITE. I will waive.
Mr. BALL. You waive it. Okay. Fine.
TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY
The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. MURPHY. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?
Mr. MURPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p,
Drive.
Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?
Mr. MURPHY. Police officer.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department?
Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year.
Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born?
Mr. MURPHY. Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. MURPHY. High school--St. Joseph High School here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class
D--West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the
Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years
and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force.
Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?
Mr. MURPHY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler--yes.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass--the Stemmons Freeway
overpass northbound at Elm Street--over Elm.
Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?
Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and
to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show
your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument--Murphy
Exhibit A, for identification.)
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right.
Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were
standing, is that right?
Mr. MURPHY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position
1, using an "X".
Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested
by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder.
Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on that overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; there were two more about--oh, a 100 feet south of
me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered
the Stemmons Freeway north entrance.
Mr. BALL. Now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade
came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; they did.
Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass
at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3).
Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3)?
Mr. MURPHY. I can't recall. I know them but I can't recall who they
were.
Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive
three-wheelers?
Mr. MURPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers.
Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic
on Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers
farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches
pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then
stop it. They did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic
as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the
excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then
it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position.
Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on
the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down?
Mr. MURPHY. No; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of
the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you?
Mr. MURPHY. It was me.
Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as
you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that
you encounter?
Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering
and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass.
Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were two.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them
before the motorcade arrived?
Mr. MURPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side--one here and one
over on this side.
Mr. BALL. All right, mark the position of the officer on the west side
as Position (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5).
(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were.
Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers?
Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn't say.
Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on
this railroad overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10--from what I could see--about 8
or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad
employees.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm
Street.
Mr. BALL. They were all together?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy
drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as
requested by Counsel Ball).
Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And mark that (6).
(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many?
Mr. MURPHY. 8 to 10 persons.
Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and
Houston?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view?
Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a
few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is
some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what
you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be.
Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1)?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned
west on Elm from Houston?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it
before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill.
Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on
Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were
you looking?
Mr. MURPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction.
Mr. BALL. Toward what?
Mr. MURPHY. Toward the motorcade--towards the President's car.
Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad
men where you have marked Position (6)?
Mr. MURPHY. No, I didn't--I did not.
Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there?
Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who
were at Position (4) and (5)?
Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also.
Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass
except the ones you have described?
Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something--heard shots?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard--I knew they were shots as soon as I heard
them, but I thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun,
and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and
everything--then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do
quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle.
Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, just from the direction I was looking--that's all
I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was
standing.
Mr. BALL. And were there echoes?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few.
Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do
anything?
Mr. MURPHY. I don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I
did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment
on Elm and running. That would be here--right in here.
Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm?
Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm.
Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were
running and mark that arrow as "7"--that's the direction you saw people
running?
Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes,
they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book
Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because
I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other
people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position
(6) on your map?
Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing
up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I
found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me,
north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other
officers had it stopped there.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at your position?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes
after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio
that there had been a shooting--the President had been shot--and then I
went towards the Book Depository.
I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then--off of
the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the
next--I would say hour or hour and a half at least.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?
Mr. MURPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said
they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took
them to the sheriff's office across the street.
Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the
investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district
attorney's investigators, that's who they were.
Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes of their names?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, one man in particular--he was standing on Elm--he
was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and
he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one
shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that
he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here
on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from
overhead to his rear.
Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or
statement?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your
deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over
and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is
your option--what would you like to do?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't,
that's perfectly all right with me.
Mr. BALL. It isn't necessary.
Mr. MURPHY. Well, that's all right then.
Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.
Mr. MURPHY. All right--certainly.
TESTIMONY OF ROGER D. CRAIG
The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand,
please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRAIG. I do.
Mr. BELIN. You can be seated.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your full name?
Mr. CRAIG. Roger Dean Craig.
Mr. BELIN. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Craig?
Mr. CRAIG. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And what's your occupation?
Mr. CRAIG. Deputy Sheriff.
Mr. BELIN. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Craig?
Mr. CRAIG. 27.
Mr. BELIN. Were you raised here in Texas?
Mr. CRAIG. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran
away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country.
Mr. BELIN. When you were 12?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12--or not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service
in Japan when--uh--I was 19, and passed it and got my high school
equivalent test--I mean, my diploma.
Mr. BELIN. Were you in the Service, then?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. In what branch?
Mr. CRAIG. I was in the Army.
Mr. BELIN. And how long were you in the Army?
Mr. CRAIG. 2 years.
Mr. BELIN. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living
with anyone or were you on your own--or what?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite.
Mr. BELIN. Where?
Mr. CRAIG. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when
you were 12?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you live?
Mr. CRAIG. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and
then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma.
Mr. BELIN. Well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what?
Mr. CRAIG. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there.
Mr. BELIN. And then you were married when you were----
Mr. CRAIG. 16.
Mr. BELIN. 16. And where?
Mr. CRAIG. Here in Texas.
Mr. BELIN. Here in Texas.
And then you enlisted in the Army when?
Mr. CRAIG. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17.
Mr. BELIN. And then you went in the Service?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And served overseas?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You were discharged when, then?
Mr. CRAIG. In--uh--October of 1955, I believe. In September or October
of 1955, sir, is when I got out.
Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you were in the service?
Mr. CRAIG. I served in the--uh--motor pool of the 92d Armored Field.
Mr. BELIN. And, after you got out of service, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a
dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a
while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey
Lane here in Dallas--2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about
3-1/2 years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex
Corp.?
Mr. CRAIG. Packager. I just packaged the Purex.
Mr. BELIN. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's
Office?
Mr. CRAIG. In October--October the 9th of 1959.
Mr. BELIN. And you've been there ever since?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Are you married?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d,
1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's
office that day?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where is the sheriff's office located?
Mr. CRAIG. 505 Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the
south side of Main?
Mr. CRAIG. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston.
Mr. BELIN. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that
Record Street there?
Mr. CRAIG. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over
to Elm Street. It covers that entire block.
Mr. BELIN. How far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east?
Mr. CRAIG. No; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then
the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street.
Mr. BELIN. To Record Street.
Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on
November 22?
Mr. CRAIG. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade.
I went out there about--oh--5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited
directly in front of the front door on the curb.
Mr. BELIN. That would be on the north curb of Main?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the
motorcade finally came by.
Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on
Main Street?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely
moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour.
Mr. BELIN. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20--what?
Mr. CRAIG. Probably going--probably 3 or 4 miles an hour.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You saw the President's car?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and
Houston?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then it turned?
Mr. CRAIG. Turned north on Houston.
Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, about the same. They--uh--they were going about the same
speed as they made the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the
President's car?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the
front part of it and--uh--I believe behind it--just a little ways
behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side
of the car, as I remember.
Mr. BELIN. The ones on the front--where would the back wheels of
the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the
President's car?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and
moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us.
Mr. BELIN. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the
car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to
the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car?
Mr. CRAIG. About equal to the back bumper.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh----
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those?
Mr. CRAIG. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of
course, and a few of the others.
Mr. BELIN. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car?
Mr. CRAIG. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe
there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched
the President's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after
the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there
looking around, you know.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what happened?
Mr. CRAIG. Then I heard an explosion.
Mr. BELIN. When you heard the explosion, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, the first--nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew
it was a shot but--uh--I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds
later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot.
And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward
Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. How many explosions did you hear altogether?
Mr. CRAIG. Three.
Mr. BELIN. About how far were these noises apart?
Mr. CRAIG. The first one was--uh--about three seconds--2 or 3 seconds.
Mr. BELIN. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been
a little longer.
Mr. BELIN. And what about between the second and third?
Mr. CRAIG. Not more than 2 seconds. It was--they were real rapid.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. I continued running across Houston Street, across the
parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on
down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to
look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I
began moving people back out of the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came
from?
Mr. CRAIG. It was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know.
There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the--uh--the
shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell.
Mr. BELIN. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they
thought the shots came from?
Mr. CRAIG. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl
getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the
north side of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she thought they came from there?
Mr. CRAIG. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that
particular point----
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. And she thought that's where they came from.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this
girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some
other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two
men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there;
one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought
they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was
about--uh--oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold
Rowland--(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Does that sound like it?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; it sounds like the name--yes.
Mr. BELIN. His wife might be Barbara Rowland?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara.
Mr. BELIN. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else
or talk with anyone before you got back with them?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around, you know, for just--after I turned
this girl over to Mr. Lewis--I began looking around and talking to
people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this
man and his wife.
Mr. BELIN. And about what time do you think this was in relation
to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this
young couple?
Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after
the shots were fired?
Mr. CRAIG. It might have been 10 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this
girl say that she saw any person with a rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. Now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the
rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. On the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the
west end of the south side, or the west side?
Mr. CRAIG. The west end of the south side.
Mr. BELIN. Of the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did he point out the window to you?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. From the west corner, where would this window have been?
Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what?
Mr. CRAIG. It was the--uh--the second window from the corner.
They were walking, you know, back and forth.
Mr. BELIN. He said that the two men were walking back and forth?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is
located near you, is it not?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south
side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows.
Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been--when you say "the second window from
the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but
the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second
pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember that now.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the
rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later
and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man
with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle
was there?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw
the man with the rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. I believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last
time he looked up there.
Mr. BELIN. And about how long was that before the shots were fired?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about 15
minutes before the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up
there to just see the one man. He just said--uh--a few minutes later he
looked back up.
Mr. BELIN. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man
with the rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. Just the one man.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle?
Mr. CRAIG. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking
out the window.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how far the man was from the window?
Mr. CRAIG. No; huh-uh.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the
window?
Mr. CRAIG. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead.
You know, straight out.
Mr. BELIN. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would
this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a
position to hold a weapon?
Mr. CRAIG. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to
Officer Lewis for interrogation.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis--(spelling)
L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then you left this young couple?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting
that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them--all
the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him
over to officer Lewis, was probably--uh--3 minutes--3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. Because--uh--I took him immediately up there to him when he
told me what he'd seen.
Mr. BELIN. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from
that School Book Depository Building--do you know?
Mr. CRAIG. No. I don't--uh--I don't recall that. I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off
in any way the entrance or the building--the School Book Depository
Building--or not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no. I didn't notice that.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice that?
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the
assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to
Sheriff Lemmy Lewis?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, it was about--well, I guess, 12 minutes--10, 12 minutes.
Something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just
observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to
someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to
Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy
Walthers--(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal
investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the
south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed--walked down
the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet
might have hit.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off
the south curb of Elm?
Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So,
we checked it.
Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted
bullet?
Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were
searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone
whistle.
Mr. BELIN. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you
had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this
whistle?
Mr. CRAIG. Fourteen or 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Fourteen or 15 minutes?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was this, you mean, after the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG. After the--from the time I heard the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You heard someone whistle?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the
hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in
front of it. He was on the south side of it.
Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension
of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?
Mr. CRAIG. Right; right.
Mr. BELIN. And where was he with relation to the west side of the
School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CRAIG. Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the
west corner--the southwest corner.
Mr. BELIN. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the
building?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right
in front of the building there?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under
the underpass?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And then what did you see happen?
Mr. CRAIG. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow,
coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in
line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the
hill at the man running down.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from
me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station
wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both
of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the
street. And--uh--they were gone before I could----
Mr. BELIN. Where did the station wagon head?
Mr. CRAIG. West on Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Under the triple underpass?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward
the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five
eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown
sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been
in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue
trousers----
Mr. BELIN. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium.
And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful
hurry.
Mr. BELIN. What about the man who was driving the car?
Mr. CRAIG. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He
was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a
thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker
type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came
out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short
jacket.
Mr. BELIN. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think
that he was a Negro?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I don't--I didn't get a real good look at him. But my
first glance at him--I was more interested in the man coming down the
hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what your opinion is today?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I--I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough
look at him.
Mr. BELIN. What kind and what color station wagon was it?
Mr. CRAIG. It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me.
Mr. BELIN. What model or make was it?
Mr. CRAIG. I thought it was a Nash.
Mr. BELIN. Why would you think it was a Nash?
Mr. CRAIG. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top.
And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that
type luggage rack.
Mr. BELIN. A Nash Rambler--is that what you're referring to?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you
know.
Mr. BELIN. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not?
Mr. CRAIG. It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the
numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle
where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it.
But--uh--I'm sure it was a Texas plate.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this incident that you can recall?
Mr. CRAIG. No; not that----
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, then--uh, I went back up to the front of the School
Book Depository--rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed
off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the
doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it.
Mr. BELIN. How long would this have been after the shots were fired?
Mr. CRAIG. I'd say nearly 20 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. CRAIG. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of
the building. At that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the
building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building.
So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights
and took them back over to them.
Then, I went up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of
the city officers, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. CRAIG. So, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty
cartridges were found.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found?
Mr. CRAIG. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on
the floor.
Mr. BELIN. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying
on the floor?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I
was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the
southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did
someone yell--or what?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the
shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a
bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the
area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not
mistaken.
Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper
bag.
Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long?
Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of.
Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up?
Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you
remember seeing, or not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the
window----
Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south?
Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the
shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I
recall, about a foot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at
all--or, don't you recall?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close.
Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there?
Mr. CRAIG. I saw three.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you
know?
Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know?
Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window?
Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either.
Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were
found?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and
we didn't want to stir up anything.
Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer
Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city
officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You
know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do after that?
Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went
to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to
search west.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got
nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone
with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was
standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on
the floor.
Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you
describe which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the
weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon,
and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda
back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed
kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be
hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off
where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that
the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would
call a rectangular "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to
speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I
looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look
straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you remember who else came over?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers;
Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some
of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification
man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take
pictures of the weapon.
Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found
lying there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that
window before this?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that
you feel might be important?
Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got
the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed
there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back
downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from
the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon
up and handed it to Will Fritz.
And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the
School Building was missing up until the time you left?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect.
Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of
with regard to the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting
of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but----
Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's
Office?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over
there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time,
you know.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run
down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't
recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after,
when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's
shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were
trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the
assassin.
So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had
run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked
to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a
description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up
as a suspect.
And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at
Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30
or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him
what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his
office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair
behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know
him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the
office.
And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes,"
it was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium
brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he
was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he
was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was
shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white
T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one
side.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the
suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What
about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs
to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into
this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that,
"All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you
leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you
people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he
said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially
out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain
Fritz.
Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his
trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of
forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating)
forward.
Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left.
Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was,
"This was the man,"--or words to that effect?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there.
Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more?
Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station
wagon there?
Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the
suspect about this incident before you came, do you?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this
interrogation at which you were present?
Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and
give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that
was outside the office.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you
think might be important that we haven't discussed here?
Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later
that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage
rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to
the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I
believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.
Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we
chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this
young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was
taken that we haven't recorded here?
Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our
conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to
the best of your recollection?
Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any
of the railroad employees.
Mr. BELIN. That's right.
Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your
story was before we sat down to take the deposition?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the
deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want
to sign it?
Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this
taking of this deposition?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Anything else you can think of, sir?
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down
here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your,
also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back
there.
Mr. CRAIG. Okay.
Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.
One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this
before, but I want to doublecheck it.
When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he
say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they
were white or colored and he said white.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how
much of them he saw?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the
windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4,
5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or
anything like that?
Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give.
Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?
Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis,
but the other man he wasn't sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there
was only one man up there then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people
in any other windows?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over
the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows,
looking out.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on
the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that
particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor
down; which would be the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth
floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor?
Or don't you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that
floor, or did he say that he did not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said----
Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?
Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these
two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?
Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just
the man with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15
minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you
say that he told you he saw only one man?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say
about what he saw after that?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over
to Lemmy Lewis.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation?
Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else
discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he
thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report
it.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball
stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd
like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks
familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward
the Rambler.
If you'll just wait a minute here please sir.
(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a
shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the
suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running
toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit
150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a
jacket?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man
running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter,
darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what?
Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but
they looked blue to me.
Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color.
Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when
Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer.
Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at
Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards
the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was.
Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact
that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you----
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it
was the same person.
Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR.
The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April
8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand
and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy,
is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. RACKLEY. I do.
Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley?
Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris.
Mr. BELIN. Texas?
Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?
Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama.
Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth.
Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming.
Mr. BELIN. You went to farming?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there.
Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated
Railroad Co.
Mr. BELIN. For the what?
Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a
coordinated deal.
Mr. BELIN. What are you doing?
Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers.
Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you?
Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60.
Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to
farming. How long did you farm?
Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago.
Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn.
Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work?
Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in
spare times for about 8 years.
Mr. BELIN. For the same place?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place.
Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas?
Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it?
Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the
courthouse.
Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our
place is.
Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors?
Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town.
Mr. BELIN. Just all over town?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday,
November 22, 1963?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office.
Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside?
Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just
outside, you might say, of it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. With whom?
Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out.
Mr. BELIN. You had walked out?
Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming.
Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to
where I could get a better view, as a fellow says.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot.
Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And was that----
Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street.
Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing?
Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or
shots at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner
of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there?
Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block.
Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that
is?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking?
Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade?
Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the
only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something
like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed
that, but I never heard no shots.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?
Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the
other side?
Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?
Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?
Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do
you remember, offhand?
Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was
nearing there, I know that.
Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade
was to be going by there?
Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12.
Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. O'clock?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Before 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot
him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place.
Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the
place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up?
Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that.
Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering
the place?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all?
Mr. RACKLEY. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was
looking up that way at all times.
Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book
Depository by way of the rear exit?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street?
Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been
some shooting?
Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then.
Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine.
Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the
south?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they
all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had
happened over there.
I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the
policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and
the side door with guns.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened
there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George.
Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for
5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?
Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to
the building at all, or just stand there?
Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there.
Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk
closer?
Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or
not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry?
Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or
expect what was taking place.
Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if
you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you
can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly
to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either
way.
Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now.
Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down
again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go,
assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you
have a right to come in and read it.
Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go.
Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it?
Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That is all for now.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK
The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April
8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. ROMACK. I do.
Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney
from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on
the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we
asked you to come down to have your deposition taken.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?
Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack.
Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack?
Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you?
Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age.
Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Go to school here?
Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college.
Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What college?
Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school?
Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war.
Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go----
Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out,
and went to East Texas State after the war.
Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?
Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took
boot training in San Diego.
I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor
and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through
the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then
returned back home.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States?
Mr. ROMACK. March 1946.
Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where
were you stationed?
Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor.
Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We
were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out
eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All
we had was the big ramp.
Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back?
Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in
the back.
Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Went to St. Louis and bought me an automobile, and just I
was a boy. I was the boy about 6 months, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Then I entered school, East Texas State Teachers College.
Mr. BELIN. You went there about a year?
Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year, I would say, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?
Mr. ROMACK. I got married once along the route, and I was married about
30 days.
Then I came to Dallas in 1947. I guess it was 1947, or 1948, I forget
just when I did come to Dallas. It was along in there.
Mr. BELIN. And you have been in Dallas ever since?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you honorably discharged?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes; I surely was.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas?
Mr. ROMACK. I went to work with a motor freight carrier. They are known
as ICX today. They were Miller & Miller Motor Freight at the time.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?
Mr. ROMACK. Drove a truck.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?
Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Went back to East Texas, and my home, and piddled around
for a short while.
Then I came back to Dallas. And what did I do along in there? In 1949,
I went to work for the Cotton Belt Railroad.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?
Mr. ROMACK. Until April, I believe, of 1955. I know it was in 1955.
Mr. BELIN. What did you generally do when you were with the Cotton Belt?
Mr. ROMACK. I did all the railroad work during that time. I mean, I
have been a billing clerk, and I have been a foreman, and I have been
checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and I worked out in
the yards, and did quite a few jobs.
Mr. BELIN. You left them in 1955, and then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with
him in a service station, Conoco Service Station.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?
Mr. ROMACK. Stayed there a year, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with Strickland Transportation Co. as a
dock foreman.
Mr. BELIN. How long were you with them?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 6 or 7 months.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with an air freight concern out here at
Love Field Drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking
up air freight for, I would say, 7 or 8 months there, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co.
Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.?
Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today.
Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them?
Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail
trucks and pickup and delivery service.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963?
Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by
east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street?
Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but
the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it,
which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic.
Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together
originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind
of walked off ahead of him.
Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk?
Mr. ROMACK. Toward the School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street?
Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they
are going to split Ross and Houston Street up.
Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking at at Houston Street?
Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes,
sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking?
Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in
October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar
with a rifle shot.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear?
Mr. ROMACK. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from?
Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but
it wasn't on my side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low?
Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that
question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would
say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I
can remember.
Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it
blowing from your back, sir?
Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face.
Mr. BELIN. Into your face.
How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you
heard the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or
from the front of Elm Street?
Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4
seconds apart.
Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was
closer than another one in time?
Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They
rang out pretty fast.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you own one?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be
operated with a bolt action rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way?
Mr. ROMACK. I have a--it is a--I can't answer that really.
Mr. BELIN. What caliber?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06.
Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is
either an Enfleld or a Springfield.
Mr. BELIN. Bolt action?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot
your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots?
Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot;
no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere
and missed him one time out of four.
Mr. BELIN. How far was it?
Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a
distance.
Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he
was 100 yards away or else 50 yards?
Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would.
Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a
person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as
quickly as you heard those rifle sounds?
Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense
that within my own self.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down
towards the--which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked
down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade
was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a
policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if
somebody was running out of the back of this building.
Mr. BELIN. What building?
Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay
but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back.
Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over
watching the building for the man.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching?
Mr. ROMACK. The back part.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much
as anyone could see.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back
dock, aren't there?
Mr. ROMACK. Right here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School
Book Depository?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman
leave?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived,
and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building
was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or
anyone.
Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then?
Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high--the
city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through,
and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post?
Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what
we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we----
Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then.
Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time?
Mr. ROMACK. Pardon?
Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there?
Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up
the back. They came in the front, all--most of them.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?
Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything
about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here
at the very entrance, and just stood there.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up
from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. See anyone else?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad
cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time
that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally I
quit watching anything particular.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you
quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5
minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there,
but I wasn't particularly watching.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you
said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after
the shots, you watched the back door of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave
the building?
Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter
the building other than a police officer?
Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway
going to this Houston Street dock?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX--you are asking prior to before he
got there?
Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first?
Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards.
Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there?
Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the
building, or 40. That is where he parked his car.
Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX?
Mr. ROMACK. Oh. I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my
wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed
again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work.
Mr. BELIN. What month was it?
Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month.
Mr. BELIN. You mean March?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March?
Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in
from work. It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a
paper up in the left-hand corner.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand?
Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper?
Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have
been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination
and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with
about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset
me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.
Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about?
Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above
him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he
also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which
was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper
this was on?
Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was
on the front page in the left corner of the page.
Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was
it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and
that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was
watching.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was
that someone said that someone else was running?
Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street.
Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book
Depository?
Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them?
Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I
am telling you right now today.
Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you
before this morning?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you
came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately?
Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember
who called me.
Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell
you to come down here?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to you about the facts that we were
talking about now?
Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the
Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure.
Mr. ROMACK. It was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are
stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building
towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the
first 5 minutes after the shots?
Mr. ROMACK. That is true.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that
you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination?
Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time
to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your
cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact
them for this information.
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that--I called an attorney that I know and
talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him
I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just
didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he
felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know.
And that is when I went ahead and made my statement.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come
back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to
read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading
it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington,
whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us.
Mr. ROMACK. I will waive.
Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much.
Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome.
TESTIMONY OF LEE E. BOWERS, JR.
The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. BOWERS. Lee E. Bowers, Jr.
Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?
Mr. BOWERS. 10508 Maplegrove Lane.
Mr. BALL. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BOWERS. Dallas.
Mr. BALL. And would you tell me something about yourself, where you
were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or
occupation?
Mr. BOWERS. I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of
my life except when I was in the Navy, at the age of 17 to 21, and I
was away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended
Southern Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked
for the railroad 15 years and was a self-employed builder, as well
as--on the side. And the first of this year when I went to work as
business manager for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and
convalescent home and rent properties.
Mr. BALL. What railroad did you work for?
Mr. BOWERS. Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating
railroads.
Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union
Terminal Co.?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing for them?
Mr. BOWERS. I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal,
operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains.
Mr. BALL. Through railroad yards?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work?
Mr. BOWERS. 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground
at which you worked in the tower?
Mr. BOWERS. It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet.
Mr. BALL. You worked about 14 feet above the ground?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And the tower was arranged so that you could see out?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each
corner. It is windows on all four sides.
Mr. BALL. Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. BOWERS. It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances,
I really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School
Depository Building, or less.
Mr. BALL. Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of
the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm?
Mr. BOWERS. Approximately the same.
Mr. BALL. Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under
the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir; considerably.
Mr. BALL. And the base of your tower is about the same height as the
triple underpass, isn't it?
Mr. BOWERS. Approximately.
Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple
underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your
description--you described it as a triple underpass.
Mr. BOWERS. It is just a local connotation for it since there are three
streets that run under it.
Mr. BALL. I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your
tower?
Mr. BOWERS. There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight
tracks.
Mr. BALL. That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that
pass in front of your tower?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and
split off to various railroad yards----
Mr. BALL. And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower,
aren't they?
Mr. BOWERS. Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all
directions, I mean, they are both north and south.
Mr. BALL. Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you?
Mr. BOWERS. That's correct.
Mr. BALL. Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area
around between your tower and Elm Street?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by
police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning
traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around
could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of
years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the
area.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice any cars around there?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time
from around noon until the time of the shooting.
Mr. BALL. Came in where?
Mr. BOWERS. They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the
extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository,
and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.
Mr. BALL. There is parking area behind the School Depository, between
that building and your tower?
Mr. BOWERS. Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking
area for the employees.
Mr. BALL. And the first came along that you noticed about what time of
day?
Mr. BOWERS. I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was
approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off.
Mr. BALL. And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was
it?
Mr. BOWERS. The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down
across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to
the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or
was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he
could, the same outlet he came into.
Mr. BALL. The place where Elm dead ends?
Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was
the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't
watch him.
Mr. BALL. What was the description of that car?
Mr. BOWERS. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station
wagon with out-of-State license.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what State?
Mr. BOWERS. No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I
think, if I looked at a list.
Mr. BALL. And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?
Mr. BOWERS. Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker,
and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.
Mr. BALL. And, did you see another car?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately
12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time
differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black
Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or
something that gave the appearance of that at least.
Mr. BALL. How could you tell that?
Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and
he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very
close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.
Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have?
Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license.
Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?
Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the
School Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it
departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than
the first car.
Mr. BALL. Did you see another car?
Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven
or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962
Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road.
It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to
the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.
Mr. BALL. What did it do?
Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he
circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt
to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and
slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository
Building.
Mr. BALL. Then did he leave?
Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just
above the assassination site.
Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?
Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it
pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.
Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there?
Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm
and Houston from the tower?
Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could
see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on,
then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed
the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again.
Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street
from Main, did you?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that.
Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it?
Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment.
Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where?
Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and
Houston.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?
Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two
very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the
sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School
Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the
tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12
years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School
Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of
sounds occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you
heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository
Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.
Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in
hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository
Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from
the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a
reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass
before?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often.
Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.
Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School
Depository when they were building there?
Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as
sandblasted the outside of the building.
Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high
ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the
underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass,
there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly
heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man,
about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.
Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately?
Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and
gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.
Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing?
Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston,
and following the caravan as it came down.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One
facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad
employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two
welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also
a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those
people?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after.
Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston
Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground?
Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this
same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates
a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those
custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a
slight distance back.
Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?
Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly
towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my
recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative
masonry wall in the area.
Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see
the car?
Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think
that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last
shot.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after
the shot?
Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some
commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman
who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.
Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street?
Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some
reason, which I did not know.
Mr. BALL. He came up----
Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his
motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. How did he get up?
Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up.
Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there?
Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the
motorcycle.
Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?
Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and
where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.
Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time?
Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not
say.
The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The
one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was.
Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by
that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the
commotion?
Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something
out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred
in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted
my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.
Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it?
Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that----
Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high
ground at the tower?
Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction.
One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came
down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another
line--another large group went across the triangular area between
Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of
them all the way up.
Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred
policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower?
Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the
trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients
taken on at least one train.
Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your
deposition was taken, haven't we?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you
about that you think of?
Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall.
Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have
told the city police, and also told to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the
deposition?
Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.
Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it,
look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish.
What do you wish?
Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.
Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature?
Mr. BOWERS. Fine.
Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN
The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MARTIN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?
Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin.
Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?
Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer.
Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department?
Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June.
Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and
where you were raised and where you went to school?
Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to
school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from
there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for
approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in
the Police Department in June 1953.
Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and
worked in the radio patrol division.
Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President
Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning
and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30
minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field.
Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position?
Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of
President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer
riding with you?
Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis.
Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were----
Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about
the speed of the President's car?
Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made
the turn onto Elm Street from Houston.
Mr. BALL. From Houston?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the
same speed?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would
say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour.
Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade
slow down?
Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed
of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour.
Mr. BALL. What was your speed?
Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler
motorcycle?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did.
Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the
position of that motorcycle?
Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine.
Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of
Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there.
Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow?
Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough
that I could notice.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to
be a shot.
Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with
reference to the President's car?
Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car.
Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and
then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position?
Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and
approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear.
Mr. BALL. Of the President's car?
Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car.
Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service
car?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because
one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I
can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on
the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car,
and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car.
Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with
reference to your right or to your left?
Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he?
Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing
him after the shots.
Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you
would have?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot
closer than I was.
Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from
each other?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that.
Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the
direction which the shot was coming from?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it
was coming--any of the shots.
Mr. BALL. Did you look?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right.
Mr. BALL. After which shot?
Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot.
Mr. BALL. You looked to your right?
Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right.
Mr. BALL. What did you look at?
Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there.
Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle
also, or did you turn your body?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever
turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west
on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot
and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At
the time he had no expression on his face.
Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository
Building?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building.
Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any
opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last
two shots--from which direction they came?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from.
Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was.
Mr. BALL. From what direction?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that
particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind
as we turned off of Houston onto Elm.
Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then?
Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston?
Mr. BALL. No; after the shots?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed.
Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of
the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the
pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room
to ride in there.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the President?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first
shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him.
Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do?
Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital.
The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of
the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the
first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the
emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway
down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of
people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to
park cars and just generally work traffic around there.
Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I
noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and
then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on
the left side of my helmet.
Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could
you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead?
Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of
my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had
spots of blood on it.
Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the
helmet there besides blood?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of
flesh.
Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?
Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my
uniform.
Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the
clavicle region?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.
Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?
Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.
Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?
Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also
on the motor.
Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches?
Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was
not very noticeable unless you looked at it.
Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable?
Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other
people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed
it.
Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with
us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting.
Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the
windshield of his motorcycle?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day.
Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your
windshield?
Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.
Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side?
Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.
Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle?
Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the
cowling on the motorcycle.
Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought
it was rifle fire?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it.
Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose?
Mr. MARTIN. I just returned.
Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car
was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car
when you heard the first shot?
Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10
at that particular time, about the time of the shots.
Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble
keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and
10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10.
Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in
the motorcade?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the
car you were to keep?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were those instructions?
Mr. MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past
the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear
of his car, about the rear bumper.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Officer.
This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you
wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the
Commission without it.
It's your option.
What would you like to do?
Mr. MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as I saw it
that day.
Mr. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then?
Mr. MARTIN. That would be fine.
Mr. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature.
Mr. MARTIN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.
Mr. MARTIN. Okay.
TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS
The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. STERN. Will you stand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HARGIS. I do.
Mr. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence
address.
Mr. HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. STERN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HARGIS. Police officer.
Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months.
Mr. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle----
Mr. HARGIS. Division.
Mr. STERN. Division?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22d?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President's car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well----
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right.
Mr. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the
limousine turned into Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm
Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on
Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but
the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I
was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time
the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was
sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised
expression on his face.
Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally's?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot
first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what
he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally,
the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up
like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know
whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so
fast.
Mr. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots?
Mr. HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course,
everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30
more shots that I probably never would have noticed them.
Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with
the shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the
car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed
like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and
kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or
"get going,"----
Mr. STERN. Someone inside----
Mr. HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I
remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear
and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of
the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential
limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to
the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.
Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time
regarding the source of the shots?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next
to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were
coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said
that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass,
because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just
a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs.
Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been
from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary
place that could have been shot from.
Mr. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots.
Mr. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your
motorcycle?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh----
Mr. STERN. Where?
Mr. HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side
of Elm Street.
Mr. STERN. And then what did you do?
Mr. HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad
overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then
I looked----
Mr. STERN. People on the overpass?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess.
They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd.
I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening
or what--and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository
Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building
was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew
where the shots were coming from, so----
Mr. STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm
Street? Do you recall their behavior?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground
and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere,
trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as
to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was.
Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to