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Title: Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ IX
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX:
Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen,
Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis,
Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne
De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service;
Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Paul M. Raigorodsky 1
Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) 27
Thomas M. Ray 38
Samuel B. Ballen 45
Lydia Dymitruk 60
Gary E. Taylor 73
Ilya A. Mamantov 102
Dorothy Gravitis 131
Paul Roderick Gregory 141
Helen Leslie 160
George S. De Mohrenschildt 166
Jeanne De Mohrenschildt 285
Ruth Hyde Paine 331, 426
John Joe Howlett 425
Michael R. Paine 434
Raymond Franklin Krystinik 461
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Commission Exhibit No. 364 93
De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.:
1 277
2 278
3 279
4 279
5 279
6 279
7 279
8 279
9 279
10 279
11 279
12 282
13 282
14 282
15 282
16 26
Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.:
1 437
2 441
Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.:
270 408
271 408
272 411
273 411
274 411
275 424
276 424
277 426
277-A 429
277-B 430
278 432
278-A 432
461 347
469 390
Raigorodsky Exhibit No.:
9 25
10 25
10-A 25
10-B 25
11 26
11-A 26
14 26
14-A 26
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY
The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March
31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are
about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is
in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides
in Dallas.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Stoneleigh Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Who resides at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas.
Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the
Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is
the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving
on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the
attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective
investigations.
The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the
U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson
by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The
Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of
depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the
assassination of President Kennedy.
We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted
with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you
are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to
have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think
you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using
the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of
Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I
understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.
Mr. JENNER. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us
in that regard?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us
your general background, just give us your general background--when you
came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. My background?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, commencing--I don't know where to start, please?
Mr. JENNER. Well, where were you born?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was,
oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to
the university there.
Mr. JENNER. You did what, sir?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I went to the university there and I am escaping from
Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and
then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross
and the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920.
Mr. JENNER. 1940?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1920.
Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sixty-five--exactly.
May I have this not on the record?
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I came to this country.
Mr. JENNER. In 1920?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they
advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United
States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air
Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received
an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of
war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to
this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't
been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and
graduated in 1924.
Mr. JENNER. What degree?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even
though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in
different subjects.
By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds,
and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat.
And, that was in 1924--then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I
simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret
McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank--a Governor or
whatever you call it.
Mr. JENNER. Federal Reserve Bank?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918--he was
appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then,
I stayed in California for some--from 1924 until more or less--until
1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a Dallas concern?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; that was a California concern, specializing in
the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for
Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.--just,
that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another,
getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton
Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that
time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction
engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we
organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and
we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to
Dallas because our business was good--I was sent to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Your business was growing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized
an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the
Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened
an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of
plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third
in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum
Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just
now--it is inoperative.
Then, I continued to--I opened an office in Houston and continued
to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum
Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and
in the United States--lots of them--even in Russia, though I never
went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were
supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you
know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I had an order
from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this
should be off the record?
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let's see, now, Pearl Harbor was in 1939?
Mr. JENNER. 1941; December of 1941.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1941?
Mr. DAVIS. 1941.
Mr. JENNER. December 8th.
Mr. DAVIS. The war started in 1939.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Poland in September 1939.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Already then we had the War Production Board, though
to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board,
but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was
it? Probably 1941--before the war.
Mr. JENNER. Before the war with Japan, you mean?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Before Pearl Harbor.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the
Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the
United States, which I did, and then I had to open--I worked under
DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five
offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston
and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got
ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I
resigned and came back to my business.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By
the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants
for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline
products, and the first plant was built in 1936--the Glen Rose Gasoline
Co. The second one was built in 1943--the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then,
I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my
back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me
there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't
speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me
to Dallas.
That's very interesting what I am going to tell you--in an ambulance
from Houston--and there was a Dr. Paul Williams--he told me that
without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to
Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I
moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people
that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they
had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and
barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever
since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952--in 1952 I was asked
by--you know General Anderson, by any chance?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was what we call--there was an organization in
Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an
Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a
Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe
and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the
production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO
countries.
I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along
all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew
me--they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By
the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card.
(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)
I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't
return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and
I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I
came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to
different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti,
Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in Jamaica together with some
other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l
[spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all.
My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't
retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has
nothing to do with the----
Mr. JENNER. With the Longshoremen?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off
the record now.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record.)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the
second marriage. Then, I have another daughter--maybe you know my
son-in-law, Howard Norris?
Mr. DAVIS. Where is he--in Washington?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Howard Lee Norris, he graduated, I think, in 1951 or
1952.
Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. What business is he in?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Lawyer of the University of Texas.
Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am very proud of that. That's my child.
(At this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to Counsel
Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. This is your daughter on the left?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. And, I will answer anything else you want to now.
Mr. JENNER. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened
to your splendid career, I assume that--and if this assumption is
wrong, please correct me--that the people of Russian descent who came
into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance,
that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest
in those people in the community and that in any event you became
acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this
general area--in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Louise, will you get me my church file?
(Addressing his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek.)
Mr. JENNER. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in
general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in
here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of
Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought
I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the
Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with
them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you
to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what
your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people
coming--like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community?
Let's not make it Marina Oswald--I don't want to get into a specific,
but let's take a hypothetical couple?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the
many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas.
There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities
in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship,
acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but
with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation--you
are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund?
Mr. JENNER. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader
may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the
Tolstoy Foundation.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our
great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came
to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes
care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be.
They process them, which means that they know all about them before
they come into here through their own organization or your different
organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States--you have
a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that
want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to
the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to
place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country
but--I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation--but also
in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United
States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy
Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked,
rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean,
that's the No. 1 stamp.
Mr. JENNER. That's the No. 1 stamp of an approval or of their
genuineness?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of approval--in fact, the U.S. Government recognized
that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy
Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work.
Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in
through acquaintanceship--most of them.
Mr. JENNER. They come because of prior acquaintanceship?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. With some.
Mr. JENNER. With some people who are here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--correspondence you see. Like we have
in Houston--we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know,
Yugoslavia--the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia
and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian
colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled
in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and
lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel.
Mr. JENNER. They followed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear
from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy
Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here.
They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where
you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let's have this on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, because of my--I always believe that even though
I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the
only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this
country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church
in Texas--at Galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the
Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out,
whether they were one side of the fence or the other.
Mr. JENNER. One side of what fence or the other?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only fence I know of is between the
communism and the anticommunism.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You are on the anticommunistic side of the fence?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh; of course.
Mr. JENNER. I want that to appear on record is why I asked.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe
in 1949 or thereabouts--I have donated quite a bit of money to the
Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they
would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest
of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church
there, which they did.
Mr. JENNER. What religion is that--the name of the church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Russian--Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern
Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two
main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed
is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have
our own Patriarch at the head of our own church.
Mr. JENNER. In Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, no, no; we have in New York--it's Metropolitan
Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the pastor over in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I will come to that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, when we got to--when I came to Dallas we had
Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an
American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me
because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You must be acquainted with Father Royster?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about
the church here----
Mr. JENNER. The full name is Dimitri Robert Royster--go right ahead.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives
us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here
between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists
or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the
Guard.
Mr. JENNER. The original church that you helped organize, that is
referred to as the Old Guard?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we
both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them.
Mr. JENNER. You were the head of both churches?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong
to three churches.
Mr. JENNER. They are different parishes in the same church, aren't they?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like
to explain to you--you see, in this country--I'm quite sure you know--I
don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell
you about?
Mr. JENNER. I am primarily interested in this--from the depositions I
have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the
immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by
refugees who come here is through the church.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another
one--George Bouhe's folks.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name
of that one--what is that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's St. Nicholas.
Mr. JENNER. That's the St. Nicholas Church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I'm head of that one.
Mr. JENNER. You are head of that one?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you say it is a third one?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, it is not a third one here--just the two. Now you
see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again,
leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for
Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians,
Sicilians, or Lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for
the same religion even though their services in their own churches is
in their own language, but here they are all in the English language
because of Father Royster's.
Mr. JENNER. Father Royster preaches the sermons in English?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he
was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this
church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them--that
means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in
fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which Father Royster
organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between
Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it----
Mr. JENNER. St. Nicholas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas--so that Father Royster belongs to
Metropolitan Leonty--Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you
may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan
Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the
revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it.
Metropolitan Anastasia is the head of the Russians outside of Russia,
because he is--whether he escaped Russia like all of us--therefore,
all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that
church.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned
it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about
each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the
Bolsheviks--all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old
anti-Communist group--period.
Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because
nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there
except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought
against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston,
the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought
against communism and even though we came through different grounds,
some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so
we have a church over there.
Now, I personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is
my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't
make any difference to me--I tried to get them together and I didn't
succeed in that town. In Houston--I think that is because it is only
one church--it is more successful.
Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father
Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this
is hearsay--that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the
name of Clark.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I mean, that's all hearsay--I do not know it for a
fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very
close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and
lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my
understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends--again, this
is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they
don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding.
And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not
many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them
groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her
fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable.
Mr. JENNER. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal
sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches
that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well
acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each
other. They seek to help?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or
otherwise?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Those of Russian or Serbian or Central European derivation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. About when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise
of----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That that happened that way?
Mr. JENNER. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your
attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their
names--I never saw them before the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--had you heard of the Oswald name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, never had.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those
things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have
yearly meetings.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say yearly?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Once a year--we meet to elect officers. We meet once a
year to elect the officers.
Mr. JENNER. Is this true of both St. Nicholas and St. Seraphim?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend
to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now,
because, first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us
will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St.
Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there
are one or two of us left--it would be fine. You see, how we are at St.
Nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to
have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now
Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So,
our priest from Galveston comes up.
Mr. JENNER. Comes up here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And I personally don't like him--so I wouldn't go to
the services in my own church on his account.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our
people from our Synod, you know.
Mr. JENNER. The Synod, S-y-n-o-d (spelling)?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who
will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but
the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any
better. We have about 10 families, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. When you say different--you mean here in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Dallas--yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the priest who comes up from Galveston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let me see--maybe I have it here.
(Examining file.)
Maybe he's not from Galveston--he comes from Houston, but he's the one
that was, you know,--can this be off the record--I just throw those
notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet
document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information
Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have
perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding
the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at
its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through
the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other
parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have
this statement in the record, and will you please copy it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have that--I have a photostat of it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to copy it in the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St.
Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church."
In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev.
Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox
Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster,
a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster)
sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language
Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically
that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the
organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas
Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston
was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the
Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral.
Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that
would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission.
Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and
Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since
the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel
and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky,
a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it
possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank
in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an
eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St.
Seraphim's Church.
Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel
conducted occasional services--Sunday Vespers weekly and an early
Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed
an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel
was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the
members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since
one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the
property.
On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood
by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly
afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734
McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two
groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month
and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time.
In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and
both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted.
Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October
31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the
Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St.
Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster.
For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father
Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander.
In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the
weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the
benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of
that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal
Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956.
In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and
to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's
Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at
4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were
arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building
served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March
and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In
1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The
house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a
rectory.
In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction
of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia.
Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to
approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy
has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with
two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday,
Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays
and on holy days.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is
entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern
Orthodox Church," when was that prepared?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I have no idea because I have--let's see--the early
part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything
historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or
can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something,
and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it."
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this
historical summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you read this historical summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events
that are recited in that 1-page summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does
Father Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the
recital reasonably accurate?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does
not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here
he said:
"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish,
"and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St.
Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own."
Well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along
together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two
churches.
Mr. JENNER. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your
testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that
expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church,
that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the
English language.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were
said in what language, again?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal
reason either.
Mr. JENNER. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St.
Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the
sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian
origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Either fought or escaped.
Mr. JENNER. Fought the Communists or Bolsheviks or escaped from their
regime.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--because there are lots of women and children over
there, you see, they never fought against them.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not
fight.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. And because of that common experience they tended to stay
together?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--more closely knit.
Mr. JENNER. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of
the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas was organized to begin with.
Mr. JENNER. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it
and you are more active in that Church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of
that group, are you not?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I am president.
Mr. JENNER. You are president of that group, but you are a member of
the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a
parishioner?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or
given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon?
Mr. DAVIS. I would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for
the split of the church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I just made a statement a while ago.
Mr. DAVIS. I didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was
split?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean,
it's purely personality.
You see, Father Royster at that time--that's the main point--Father
Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians
it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to
the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained,
but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by
Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so
he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get
in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be
ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan,
B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the Ukranian branch of
Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and
so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic
facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and
in fact, Ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the
rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of
their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian.
Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I
mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but
verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked
me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek
Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened.
You see, some of the statements--like he said, "In September of 1958
the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to
that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia."
Well, he is Russian Metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country.
Mr. JENNER. The words "in this country" should be added there?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor,
but substantially, it is correct--what he said.
Mr. JENNER. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy
the historical statement into the record?
The REPORTER. Yes, sir.
(The instrument referred to is set forth on pp. 8 and 9 of this volume.)
Mr. JENNER. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and
otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the
views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with
respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I
understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas
Church.
Mr. JENNER. Largely?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. So--I don't know how that came about--perhaps she is
Russian. I can understand so much--she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is
Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox.
Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners,
by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There's no question about it.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the history, there's no question about
it--largely?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Largely.
Mr. JENNER. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one
major motivating force?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who
are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they
also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be
the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn
the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their
opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in
America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in
St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are
getting to--that is the first time I heard she was Russian--they told
me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and
that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald,
how they helped her and everything else and I asked them--"How did it
happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened.
Mr. JENNER. She went to St. Nicholas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; St. Seraphim's.
Mr. JENNER. And that caused what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they
understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life.
Mr. JENNER. She did what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life----
Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to
sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are
atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists.
Mr. JENNER. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized
in St. Seraphim's?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas
Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she
believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a
factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist,
because Communists are atheists?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but
there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct--which was that the Communists may have
been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way
to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community.
Mr. JENNER. Lead people to believe that you were a Christian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And not an atheist?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined
and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one
thing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see--I don't trust them in any kind of a condition
or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any
difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful--it's just like Mr.
Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know,
lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he
lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how
they operate.
Mr. JENNER. Did there in due course come into this community a man by
the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you were here when he came here, were you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in
Dallas while I was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to
see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere
in that neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of him prior to that time?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I heard of him through Jake Hamon.
Mr. JENNER. Through Mr. Hamon?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Hamon, H-a-m-o-n [spelling]--Jake.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known,
and he told me there was a Russian here--do I know him, and I said,
"No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him--at a party.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to
the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and
acquire some knowledge of his origin and background?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his
history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some
of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning
the business associations or contacts you may have had with him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt
comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by
the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and
they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations
and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know,
and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de"
Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"--yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand
that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the
University of Chicago.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the University of Chicago or Dartmouth?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Or what?
Mr. JENNER. Dartmouth, or the University of Chicago?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It might be, now, but at that time when I first
learned it--he was at the University of Chicago.
Mr. JENNER. And his first name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say his first name was?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I thought you gave it to me the other day?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe I could get it from some other source?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--not from me. Now, when I first knew George he
was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in
Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his
own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil
operator.
He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first
wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife.
Mr. JENNER. What is her name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember; I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. But you have met her?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is
next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was--that's where
this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the
Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. Was her name Wynne, W-y-n-n-e [spelling]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; we called her something else--it will come to
me--just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were
spastic.
Mr. JENNER. Was a boy and a girl?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. One of them since died.
Mr. JENNER. The boy?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my
understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as
I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and
when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim
the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts,
but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and
my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit,
that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to
Dallas and join this Russian community?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And be a member, because----
Mr. JENNER. A member of what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of the social group that they were here originally.
You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you
it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the
suit--whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs.
Crespi can give you more information than that.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. whom?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one
who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that
time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been
borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time.
The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly.
Mr. JENNER. The last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; $500.
Mr. JENNER. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you
can't recall at the moment?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Isn't that funny?
Mr. JENNER. And he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that
correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he married a third time?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A third time.
Mr. JENNER. And is that his present wife?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And who is she?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question----
Mr. JENNER. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your
recollection?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean.
Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she
was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that
she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our
form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist,
Anarchist or what.
Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl.
Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was
either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age--came
to China?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that
she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never
expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of
Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You
know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel
Jenner off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to
the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political
views?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you
say--"And political views?"
Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then
his wife, Jean.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that
after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems
from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times,
he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the
Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to
provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would
like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but
in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had
some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes
him tick?
He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and
we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his
personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with
you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the
political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a
character?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and
believe me, that's the only time--first of all, I've got George De
Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding.
Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle.
Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain
set of Russian emigre?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have
against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a
donation.
Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt
like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he
never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me
any political questions or give me his views except one time when he
went to take the trip--the walking trip.
Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border
down to Panama?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was
elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags
about things--he was bragging about many things.
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he
met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why
didn't he shoot this b----d?
Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?"
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding
smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire.
Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative
in his attire in the sense of nonconforming?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best
definition I can give you.
Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a
by-the-Baltic German accent.
Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it
is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think
she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was
definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George--now this
is again my idea----
Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your
idea.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I
don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George
in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give
him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a
religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead
the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything
but the Spartan life in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when
he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal,
maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can
remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about
and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. To the banker--the banker--Commercial de Haiti. You
can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you
want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time--he was
trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with
Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and
they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could
pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get
people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I
believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of
Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's.
Mr. JENNER. Down through Mexico?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI
and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or
nothing."
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine.
He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go
with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as
to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the
Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every
country in the world--you know what I am trying to say?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I do. I am familiar with the name Schlumberger.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And that he might be interested in going in business
in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and
nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down
after the investigation.
Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some
correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things
began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I
thought I better keep a file on him.
Mr. JENNER. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the
works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; you know, he was consultant to the Yugoslav
Government?
Mr. JENNER. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government.
In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of
our Government, maybe--I don't know under what protocol that we were
helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in
order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some
man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--I can say this--I
don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him
because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times,
but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and
asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give
him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he
wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What
could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly
all right, I mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer.
Mr. JENNER. And that's your opinion of him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field
is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of
underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job,
and as far as I know he quit the job--he was not fired.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community
for truth and veracity?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this--I
don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person.
Mr. JENNER. His reputation in that respect is poor or bad?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.
Mr. JENNER. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of
morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.
Mr. JENNER. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability
in the profession which he pursues?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Good.
Mr. JENNER. For example--as a petroleum geologist?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; petroleum engineer--good. His knowledge of
languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I
believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there,
where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also
went there at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal
American? If he has a reputation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now,
remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you
see, than he was before with his second wife.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds
was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his
friends.
Mr. JENNER. From a prior social circle?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he met them--I don't know where he met them,
but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was
originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt
in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the last 5 years, let's say?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and
George Brown--they are brothers.
Mr. JENNER. What business are they in?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, again, don't put this down.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr.
Raigorodsky, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Now; I want this on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George has been friends with many, many influential
people in many cities.
Mr. DAVIS. In all of them, I imagine.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of
important people?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--he was my friend, I was his friend--he was Jake
Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend.
Mr. DAVIS. How often did De Mohrenschildt see him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jake?
Mr. DAVIS. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and
George Brown?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite
often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to
deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any particular business that he had in
Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. What information do you have regarding his interests or
business in Houston--I take it that it came from his making statements
to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, except in his dealing with John De
Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters--you
see, there is a copy from John De Menil.
Mr. JENNER. Where do you have information as to whether he was required
to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He--I can't answer that.
Mr. JENNER. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in
Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sure.
Mr. JENNER. He is a professor at Rice Institute?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--he's head of the Russian church in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. He is the head of the Russian church in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--I'm a
godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr.
Jitkoff's background.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. Jitkoff--he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you
call it.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he, by the way, your best guess?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is
younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is 50 some odd
years--55.
Mr. JENNER. He is closer to 50 than to 60?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Is he somewhere between 50 and 60?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a
tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club.
Mr. JENNER. Where--Dallas or Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is
teaching Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Was De Mohrenschildt an athletic man?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. Is he interested in tennis?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; very much so.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically
inclined person?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Also interested in tennis?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport
to the extent of engaging in the sport itself?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. As far as I know--swimming.
Mr. JENNER. Ice skating?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember anything about that, but they always
played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they
played tennis all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of them ever live in the Stoneleigh Hotel?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same
people--the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace--the
Tower Terrace.
Mr. JENNER. Are these buildings all in proximity one with the other?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the
Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to being an expansive person, is De
Mohrenschildt a generous man?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I would say he is a generous man.
Mr. JENNER. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the
goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in
like circumstances?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say he will do it because he wants to show
what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It
would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were
appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk.
Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere,
while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and
sincere about it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for
example?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And was he a man given to extreme statements in public?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a
big party--I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I
met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at
a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons
and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do
it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would
say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever
it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and
somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's
the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest,
but we didn't know how much truth there was to it.
Mr. JENNER. And would you give us the reason for that view?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he's liable to do anything.
Mr. JENNER. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no
control over himself, really?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's what it is--because of his character.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the
type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he
might hesitate to do himself?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business
in which he is engaged in Haiti?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government,
it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I
think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan
or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there--he
is there, and moved his furniture.
Mr. JENNER. That's so--in the spring of 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have had correspondence with him since?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De
Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate
almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything
else in it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here is a letter of June 30 that must have been left
here.
Mr. JENNER. Is this June 30, 1963, or 1962?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It must be 1963--yes, it is 1963.
Mr. JENNER. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of
November 22--I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he
had been in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. After this--that's right; I see it is 1963, after this
fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas--which I was called on.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your
testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife
Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with
the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's
son.
As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe
sued directly, to see what you could do to help out?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; friends of her family.
Mr. JENNER. Friends of her family?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, Mrs. Crespi, appealed to me to see what I can
do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Crespi?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her
husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.--a cotton
exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Crespi?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you understand Mr. De Mohrenschildt is doing over
in Haiti?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Over there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground
floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is
the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy
plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted
to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build
plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You
see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist
in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and
all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be
interested.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of
an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't a sort of--he is adolescent.
Mr. JENNER. He is adolescent?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George will never grow old.
Mr. JENNER. But will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He always did.
Mr. JENNER. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that
amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. When we were 16--that's right--any kind of pranks.
Mr. JENNER. He is a prankster?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean,
his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys
it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very
effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned.
Mr. DAVIS. Would you say he is very distinct----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There is no word for that--very engaging, I suppose
would be the nearest.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think
De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Occasionally.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the Haitian venture?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he sought to have me to participate in the deal.
Mr. JENNER. And you did or didn't?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And that was to be what kind of a deal?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he
was planning to do.
(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken
from your file. There is handwriting on the chart--is that George De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he send that chart to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; here's the envelope.
Mr. JENNER. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which
the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12,
1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of what he plans to do there.
Mr. JENNER. Of what he planned to do?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows
he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking,
cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill,
weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available
for these industries."
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information that he is surveying the
physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is
how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting
jobs.
Mr. JENNER. For the Haitian Government?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. For the Haitian Government.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you
informed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know--I am not informed.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was
legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am
getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior
character?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I
think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John
De Menil.
Mr. JENNER. Which he was sending to John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a copy for me.
Mr. JENNER. It is to John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would I have your permission to have these documents in
your file duplicated?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.
Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would
have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously
pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in
which it was originally?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will be able to go through it with you.
(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs.
Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to
comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing
office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as
requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition
continued as follows:)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows
what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and
everything.
Mr. JENNER. There were two files there, as I recall it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have them both--the other one is on the well
operation.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I understand. You were participating with him in some
drilling?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to
anything?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. One dry hole and one other. I want to ask you
something?
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H.
Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of
mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country.
We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago.
His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production
Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several
oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in
contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that
Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number
and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he
will come over here.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, I'm sure he is.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Basil Zavoico?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Basil--he is a Russian. His father was a general in
the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been--his primary
business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant
on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been
with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a
business of his own mostly connected with oil financing.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at one time reside in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he resided in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George
De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings.
Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with
George than I had.
Mr. JENNER. And he lives in Green Farms, Conn.?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything
that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first,
in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and
secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and
interests of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told--it
is a hearsay--that after meeting Marina Oswald--the way Russians met,
there was a party somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. There was what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A party--a social gathering.
Mr. JENNER. A party?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Somewhere--I don't remember where.
Mr. JENNER. Here in this country?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several
Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with
Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of
everything that they told me that stuck in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this
party?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say that Mr. Bouhe and Anna Meller.
Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other
Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party.
Mr. JENNER. We have had some off the record discussions all in the
presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred
during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have
failed to bring out.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off
of the record.
Now, may I say something myself?
Mr. JENNER. Certainly.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Would you care to know what my opinion of the
assassination is, or is that just an opinion?
Mr. JENNER. All right; let's have it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I still believe it is a conspiracy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, on what do you base that opinion?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have read--I'm quite sure everything that you
have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these
interrogations.
There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like
Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the
basis of your opinion in that respect?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them
operating, you know.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off
the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want that on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well--the fact that they gave you all of the record,
they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around
in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out
of Russia--I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person
whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was
(snapping his fingers) so--just like that. It just reads too much like
a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they
surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things
which he received in Russia and in this country.
Now, Marina, I don't know anything about her.
Mr. JENNER. This is your supposition and rationalization on your part?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now. I have your file----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now you take anything you want out of it.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's do it this way--I have your file which you
have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will just identify these documents.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You don't need to.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I need it for my record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, all right.
Mr. JENNER. I am not questioning you.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'm not questioning you.
Mr. JENNER. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate
telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or
what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a
circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
1].
What are they and how did you get those?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent them to me.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt sent that to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United
States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove
to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United
States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information
about him.
Mr. JENNER. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a
letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston,
Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the
second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand
corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."
In whose handwriting is that notation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. His.
Mr. JENNER. That is in George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and this was the--outlining a project in
Haiti and the West Indies.
Mr. JENNER. And was there an outline enclosed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian
Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George
De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National
Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.]
That was enclosed with the letter?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline,
and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned.
Mr. JENNER. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page
carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be
the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1,
1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De
Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. These documents were transmitted to you. Did you save the
envelope?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this looks like it.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in
his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's August 1962?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read
that for me?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, yes; it is the Banque Commerciale D'Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles."
This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a photostat.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt send that to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On or about July 31, 1962, or shortly thereafter.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next document consists of--it looks like an
organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart
of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And here again there is some longhand writing in ink.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that De Mohrenschildt's writing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his signature?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And he also has written on there "Dallas, September 11,
1962."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was
transmitted to you, too?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to
what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
10.] And just a diagram?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything else accompany that diagram?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, I'm quite sure nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.--is that what that is?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no; that's De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt.
Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It has a signature by "Tardieu". How did you come by that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent it to me.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16],
appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr.
Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt."
On the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize
the handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's signed by George.
Mr. JENNER. It's George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that
letter is you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the memorandum is for you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the
upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue
stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston,
Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then
apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and he investigated it later.
Mr. JENNER. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he
is not interested?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. But read this.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
"Dear Paul:
George De Mohrenschildt is a nice man, but I do not think his
project is very well cooked. It is slightly visionary and not
specific at all. This, of course, is my own personal reaction
which I am giving you for your confidential information. It was
also the reaction of my friend on Wall Street to whom I talked
in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea
of George De Mohrenschildt.
With kinds regards and best wishes,
Yours sincerly,
/S/ JOHN DE MENIL
cp
John de Menil
JdM:cp
Dictated by Mr. de Menil over the telephone from New York."
The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962,
with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit
No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You
received that, did you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary;
is that correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. The next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to Mr.
George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August
27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No.
10-B.]
From whom did you receive that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. From Mr. de Menil.
Mr. JENNER. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The
envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May
11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First
National Building, Dallas, Tex.
Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it a card enclosed in that envelope?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next is an original of a letter addressed to
Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M."
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.]
Is that George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that
letter in his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you received that in due course?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This was written from Port-au-Prince.
Mr. JENNER. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans
Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.]
The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts,
it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over
the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt,"
and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner
is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.]
That is a letter to you, is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to
you, it looks like that is his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, that George's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September
12, 1963, was enclosed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, I'm sure it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked
in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his
testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks
like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it
has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted,
accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note
on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18,
1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.]
It begins, "Dear Paul," and is signed by "Geo. De M."
Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's
handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, they are.
Mr. JENNER. And was the card enclosed in the envelope here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, and here is another letter.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on
both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at
Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 4.]
Do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, Mr.
Raigorodsky?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. De Mohrenschildt's.
Mr. JENNER. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June
30--of what year?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1963. This is very interesting--this is a map of
Haiti. You see where he sent me--he said "Our Shada Concession."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the
map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's George De Mohrenschildt's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that from him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one
of the letters.
Mr. JENNER. One of the letters I have identified?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But all of that is his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil
possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession."
Mr. JENNER. What is "Shada"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's where he claims he had the concessions for the
hemp.
Mr. JENNER. For hemp or sisal there?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sisal.
Mr. JENNER. These things will all show up on any photostat immediately
of this?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has
authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified
them in the record, so one thing is helpful--I don't have to go to the
trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and
secondly, in the event--if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I
will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of
this questioning of you.
Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would
like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily,
also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to
the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to
here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been
under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this
personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the
foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11,
11-A, 14, and 14A.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost
at this moment as I was then.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been very helpful throughout this.
Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this
deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will
be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some
corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a
privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also
have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your
deposition is with respect to all these alternatives.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when
you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help
you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we thank you very much.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)
The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T.
Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Come in Mr. and Mrs. Ray and sit down.
Mr. RAY. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed
it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we
are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, I'm sorry. You are supposed to have 3 days' notice.
Mr. RAY. That's all right. We're here now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this
time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you
before we start.
(Witness complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I believe Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and I read it and have your name, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order
and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure
governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that
letter and copies of such documents?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed
to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday.
Mrs. RAY. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose
technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not
have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you
are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that
correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the
events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was
held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related
to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about
meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas
during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into
that, would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. RAY. Me?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what is your full name?
Mrs. RAY. Natalie.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your last name is----
Mrs. RAY. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. R-a-y [spelling]?
Mrs. RAY. R-a-y [spelling].
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence?
Mrs. RAY. Route 3, Detroit, Tex.--here, you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Where were you born?
Mrs. RAY. Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Stalingrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when were you born?
Mrs. RAY. In 1922, May 1922.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over
Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you
up and other Russian people?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp,
in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you in Germany?
Mrs. RAY. I been there until I come to America, 1946.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States;
what were the circumstances of your coming here?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated
by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and
then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send
us to Russia. At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers,
something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we
be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him,
well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at
home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American
man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will
not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get
marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that
they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I
am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending
all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I
have to stay until we get married. Well, they--Russians don't give me
permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became
as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could
marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah,
I guess 1945 or 1946--let me see, yeah, in 1945 because--or 1946. I
guess. I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were both in Germany at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on,
you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come.
We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I
go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I
guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right; that's not important.
Mrs. RAY. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946,
I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to the United States with your husband,
is that correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; well, we stay year in Germany after we marry.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then when he left Germany you came back to the United
States?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I go with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you an American citizen now?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I met them at this party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell
us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of
your recollection just how it happened.
Mrs. RAY. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris,
Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my
address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have
any--nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with Russian speaking people?
Mrs. RAY. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in
Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone
and said that--"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I
said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how
to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell
her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they
always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men
have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well,
I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have
contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr.
Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found
one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They
already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be.
She said on Friday--Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she
said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what
just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United
States.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at
this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you
like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.
Mrs. RAY. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will
come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went
to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were there, approximately, would you say?
Mrs. RAY. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots
of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know
what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and
this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this
Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and
asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did
you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't
have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do
much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or--I said, "Oh,
that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have relatives in Russia now that you know of?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have a niece what I been--she write my mother passed
away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when
Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay
and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two
children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and
one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my
mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was she living in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in
Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to----
Mr. LIEBELER. Kharkov?
Mrs. RAY. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's
not too far from Kharkov.
Mr. LIEBELER. I interrupted your story about your conversation with
Marina. Would you go on with that?
Mrs. RAY. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to
come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I
said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy
to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess
they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"--I let be get contact
now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get
her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and
I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you
want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her
husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody
and he speak just perfect Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak to you in Russian?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come
you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well,
he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You
just been three----
Mr. DAVIS. Excuse me, how long?
Mrs. RAY. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him,
I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh,
it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always
staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to
be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe
he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I
don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would
want to tell you the answer?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, always; he be very close.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to
learn Russian?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian.
I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English";
I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak
Russian. He just came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect
a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3
years?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know
American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really,
it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak
Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak
so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my
husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember
him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and
he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce
and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to
his wife, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with
Oswald as best you can recall it.
Mrs. RAY. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and
we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her
about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking
her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and
we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much
conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her where she lived when she was in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from
Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with
her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his
paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told
them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got
paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for
little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the
Russians; did she say?
Mrs. RAY. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go
back to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long they stayed in Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. She stayed 1 year.
Mr. LIEBELER. She said they were in Moscow 1 year?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American
Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow
before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian
Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her
paper and they left.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians gave her the papers?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina mention she had lived in Leningrad at one time?
Mrs. RAY. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in
Kharkov?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn what kind of job Oswald had while he was in
Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory,
some factory and we don't get any details.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where this factory was located?
Mrs. RAY. Located what?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the factory that Oswald worked in?
Mrs. RAY. In Minsk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do
you know about that?
Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they
coming and stay in Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for
a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and
then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by?
Mrs. RAY. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told
us that she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl,
she says she come back from Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. From Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know--let
me see how she say--that she come from Moscow. She fly--not fly--I do
not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but
she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she
been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. For a year?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not tell you what they were doing there for
a job?
Mrs. RAY. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and
that's as far as I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you
could tell?
Mrs. RAY. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she
don't understand English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment
they had to live in when they lived in Minsk?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where they lived when they were in
Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that they may have told
you about the time that they were in Russia together?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things.
I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing.
All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so
easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my
impression been that everything is get better, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how much money Oswald was paid at his
job?
Mrs. RAY. Where, there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. No, uh-uh.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why Oswald went to Russia in the first
place?
Mrs. RAY. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he
went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to
Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he
want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then Mrs. Harris is one
that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to
stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's
party, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Yes--no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it
and Zena--that's Mrs. Harris--don't know either who they are but when
we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in
conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come
back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs.
Harris told you that, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion
about Oswald amongst the people there?
Mrs. RAY. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go
to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early--I don't
recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they
don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go
and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well,
we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at
this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they
gone and everything is forgot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that
there was a discussion about the Oswalds?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah, next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that?
Mrs. RAY. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We
went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we
staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but
she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2
weeks, Marina and her baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"--said she just
want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and
then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna
Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other
words a week after?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday,
that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask
by George Bouhe--or how you say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe.
Mrs. RAY. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what
being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and
that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his
wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both
there, is that right?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir; he.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yourself and your husband?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Harris.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Harris?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot
recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm;
I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been
from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Miss Biggers--Tatiana Biggers?
Mrs. RAY. Tatiana Biggers, yeah, she from Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else there that you remember?
Mrs. RAY. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't
remember what her name----
Mr. LIEBELER. Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
was said at this party or get-together?
Mrs. RAY. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him,
well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come
America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him
back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't
know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what
they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia
and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what
for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said
"Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he
cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every
place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time
work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give
job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and
said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to
making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her
here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty.
They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been
trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have
nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her
and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her,
not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell
me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living.
Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they
give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days
and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia
when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him
and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in
Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need
him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind
of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't
know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot--he don't
going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have
some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him."
Mr. LIEBELER. This is what Bouhe said?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she
is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him,
we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else was said at this time?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't know; I cannot recall right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or
not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government?
Mrs. RAY. Well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. Said Russia,
you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some
kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent
but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia
because so easy way to coming to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said
about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians?
What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can
recall the substance of that conversation.
Mrs. RAY. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what
try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but
said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we
don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told
him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said,
"You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you
know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia
and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They
going to do such a trick that you surprise.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to college in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. In Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this was while you were living in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad
and then I went home.
Mr. LIEBELER. Back to Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you study in Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Economist Statistics.
Mr. DAVIS. Economics Statistics?
Mr. LIEBELER. Economics Statistics.
Mrs. RAY. Economics Statistics.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you study?
Mrs. RAY. Three and a half year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you study in Leningrad, what college?
Mrs. RAY. Soljanoy Calach--that's salt. I suppose to after I finish
they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia,
Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish
in Irkutsk, Siberia.
Mr. DAVIS. This was a Leningrad college?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's Stalingrad.
Mr. DAVIS. I mean college.
Mrs. RAY. Yes; Leningrad--street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim
Gorky Street; that's college.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you there in Leningrad studying, what year,
what years?
Mrs. RAY. You mean when?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not
permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go
this far--that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and
I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home
in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying
school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You
have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home.
Mr. LIEBELER. To Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying
there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war
started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to
write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started
that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in
Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the Germans arrived in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; when Germans come there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad
from about 1937, is that right, to 1941?
Mrs. RAY. In 1941 when I coming home and just about 4 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you
started at the university in Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3-1/2 year
and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you
know, practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice
program in connection with your college?
Mrs. RAY. No; at this time that's my job. That's where I have to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go from Leningrad to Siberia to start
work?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come
back and then they assign me to Siberia.
Mr. LIEBELER. And, you actually went to Siberia before you came to
Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to
Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. This time I did not stay long. I had this plant they have on
ground.
Mr. LIEBELER. Salt processing?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like
to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to
admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I
coming home.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you
went there the first time?
Mrs. RAY. No; but I been to Siberia before on practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having
with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here
by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him
or asked him to do it.
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was?
Mrs. RAY. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first I talk
with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said
why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him
back, never can tell what is going happen. George--one said he don't
have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is
silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--I
don't know how to explain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mental case?
Mrs. RAY. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any
count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have
enough sense. Said--they said they going to be through with him. They
don't want have anything to do with him any more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this conversation carried on in Russian or in English?
Mrs. RAY. In Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your husband there at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me
sometimes. He remember this discussion, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did
Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on
English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we
tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald
might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married
to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason
that led you to suspect he might be an agent?
Mrs. RAY. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot--I don't know
how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can
quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They
send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go
home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there
and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he
seems--from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but
not as far as this; other, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought that in addition to his apparent--in
addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he
was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was
able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought
he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to
believe that?
Mrs. RAY. Well, main things--I don't thought those things be made
him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people
quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't
thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man
coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can
tell what they----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would do?
Mrs. RAY. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they
don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to
other country and working.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people
who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside
Russia and be agents for Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never received but I do know that we have it in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know; do you have schools like that?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in
military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We
study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the
people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need,
you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a
war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians do not want a war?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them
have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves,
but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures
where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other
countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to
always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as
much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it.
I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's
first time I meet these people.
Mr. DAVIS. Where would that school be; do you know?
Mrs. RAY. Which kind?
Mr. DAVIS. School where they would teach people this.
Mrs. RAY. That is really secret. They don't let you know. In Russia?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. I don't know if they do train agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were told this when you were going to school in
Leningrad, is that correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion
as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a
Russian agent?
Mrs. RAY. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided
he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we
don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been
wondering, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree
that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did
not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian
agent?
Mrs. RAY. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they
do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be
not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such
difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any
such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not
Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the other details of these
conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can
recall?
Mrs. RAY. No; that all I recall right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his
wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that
correct?
Mrs. RAY. No, sir; I never see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the
Commission should know that you have not already told us?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know nothing else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you would like to add to your
testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly
well?
Mrs. RAY. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I
saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away
and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do
you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man;
made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there
here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when
my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well,
you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he
said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility
after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the
assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might
have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again?
Mrs. RAY. No; we not. See, my husband called George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and
said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said,
"Well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "We
just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any
enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure
out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they
don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we
been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just
want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one
Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and
he thinking I am telling--am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina,
and this man is----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Attorney General.
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank
you very much for coming in.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY
The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand?
(Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to
take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that
Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would
contact you to take your testimony.
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's
procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the
letter?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness
to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify
although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive
the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post
office.
Mr. RAY. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your
testimony at this time?
Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again.
Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates
basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your
full name for the record?
Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name?
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't.
Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir?
Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a
hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for
Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right
now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am
going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as
assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2
years.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray?
Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
you met and married your wife?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already
know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army
used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen
work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she
and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was
go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and
feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her
back to the United States; is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later
discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in
Frankfurt.
(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney
general of Texas leaves the room.)
Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think
actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which
would have been 16, 17 months, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank
when you met your wife?
Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your
wife when you were in Germany?
Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps
but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send
all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to
Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and
never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government
stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go
back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about
our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get
all the Russian nationals back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian
authorities before she could marry you?
Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't
say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see
the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here?
Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was
during that time that they were trying to send them all back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mr. RAY. I met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your
meeting them, where was it, what happened?
Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how
you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your
contact was.
Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his
wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or
something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten
acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and,
actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over
here. We came and we met them over here.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the party?
Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met?
Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to
go to the Ford party?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we
went to this party.
Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of
Declan P. Ford?
Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were
made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford
from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be
and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we
were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes
on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was
said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along
with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and
went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday
night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on
Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until
Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at
the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald
was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because
when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get
acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't
get acquainted with Oswald or his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald
at all?
Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a
handshake or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can
remember at the moment, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. No, I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was
kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have
any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English?
Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English,
is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the
ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you?
Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I
wasn't around him very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford
party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in
your presence?
Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember?
Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or
Miller.
Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right?
Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband
was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]?
Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time?
Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and
Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston
was there. I believe she was from Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?
Mr. RAY. No; I don't now.
Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you?
Mr. RAY. What was the first name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana.
Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe
she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got
acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there?
Mr. RAY. Well, I might.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really.
Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to
the best of your recollection.
Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a
nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think
the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of
this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to
help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly,
George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion?
Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too
good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He
wasn't real good to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have
beaten Marina up?
Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had
gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was
the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he
was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald
along these lines as far as you can remember?
Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea
and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed
me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did
have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said
at this point?
Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no.
I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee
and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and
that's the way it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether
or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me
like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for
all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States
and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time
that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you
know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean?
Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my
mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked
odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife
out partly related to the difficulties you had had?
Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known
the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and
you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered
at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much
trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did
look odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember
amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this
question?
Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say
whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago
and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you
know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I
wouldn't say for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in
Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people
that were at the house?
Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some
Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to
death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian
and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all.
I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking
to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of
leaves Ed and I out when we are together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion
on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't
want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you
remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have
good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a
job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these
reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was
not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?
Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and
I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the
Russians would not want him or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint
recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you
believe?
Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility,
see.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying
is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it
is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm
recollection?
Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the
Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit
prior to the assassination?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had
completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure
we talked about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation
might have been?
Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the
country.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that
they might have sent him back for something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you
recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's
involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the
assassination?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got
home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald
and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the
guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know,
the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know,
brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes
misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be
mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President.
I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the
President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and
so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these
people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the
guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short
conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said
it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time
I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year
had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a
year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he
remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told
me "Yeah, that's the guy."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or
not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have
been the man who really did assassinate the President?
Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how
Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place
at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all
those places in that short length of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at
this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?
Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure
how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and
then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how
many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this----
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre.
Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from
place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little
doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement
based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and
you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did
not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he
was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion
with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?
Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George
was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He
said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying
to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy
when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I
remember that statement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he
tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his
previous association with Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying
to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?
Mr. RAY. I think so; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told
us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the
paper", said "It's all in there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else?
Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I
don't remember anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about
that?
Mr. RAY. About this deal?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time?
Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody
else that was at this party about this assassination?
Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now,
that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie
a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but
anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we
did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to
get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and
on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and
that's--of course, we discussed it then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together
at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was
discussed?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the
whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into
the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how
it came about, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was
there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was
said about it?
Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or
agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a
Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did
you get that opinion?
Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I
would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever
telling you that they thought he was?
(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.)
Mr. RAY. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be?
Mr. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or
not he was a Russian agent or might be?
Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation
that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or
something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course,
you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would
want, you know, for a Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is just----
Mr. RAY. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the
people that knew him thought; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is just your own thought on it?
Mr. RAY. That is my own thoughts on it, see.
Mr. DAVIS. Have you all--I might inject here--have you all gone over
the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of
these other people that it was strange about them being able to come
out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move
about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that
it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed?
Mr. RAY. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and
my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country
and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or
longer--how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him----
Mr. DAVIS. Going on 3 years.
Mr. RAY. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of
ridiculous to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the
Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife,
wasn't it?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where
the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there
been very frequent--I mean, have you and your wife gone--I believe this
was the first time?
Mr. RAY. This was the first time we ever.
Mr. DAVIS. Did they mention about this having happened fairly
frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in
Dallas?
Mr. RAY. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know,
somewhere around New Year's--Christmas or New Year's; something like an
annual affair for them to get together.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you know--were there any others in this group or did
you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story
like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go
out of Russia?
Mr. RAY. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were
Russian descent or else they were like--they had married a Russian over
there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody
there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard of no other examples where people had come
out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct?
Mr. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You know or did you hear of it?
Mr. RAY. I did not hear.
Mr. DAVIS. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since
the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and
go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to
contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this
proved to be?
Mr. RAY. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on
the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and
the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally
gave up.
Mr. DAVIS. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence
it has been made easier to communicate back and forth?
Mr. RAY. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a
couple years before we even knew it.
Mr. DAVIS. How long has this been you received that information?
Mr. RAY. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by
when my wife found out about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she
died, do you know?
Mr. RAY. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure
that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near
Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you
know, took place, in Arzamas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know
or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion
that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this
point, go right ahead.
Mr. RAY. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down
here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much.
Mr. RAY. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with
what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the
guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses
of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI,
because of that. They might contact these people and find out more
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think they have talked to most of them.
Mr. RAY. I am sure they have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN
The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr. BALLEN. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin
mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact
you this week to take your testimony.
The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to
authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.
Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of
the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did
receive those, did you not?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts
with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your
association with George De Mohrenschildt.
Will you state your full name?
Mr. BALLEN. Samuel B. Ballen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. BALLEN. 8715 Midway Road.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. Dallas 9.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior
officer in several corporations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Included among those corporations is the High Plains
Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are an American citizen, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. In New York City.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. November 1950.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your age, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. Forty-two.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background?
Mr. BALLEN. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend
Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y.,
and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University,
Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University,
and Texas A&M.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the graduate courses in, generally?
Mr. BALLEN. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum
engineering.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr. BALLEN. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy.
My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De
Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife
had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from
Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems,
that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a
job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for
him.
I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately
2 hours with him.
He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to
go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with
him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to
the YMCA where he was residing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision?
Mr. BALLEN. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or
the very early part of 1963.
I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down
the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and
that was also true of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you;
do you know?
Mr. BALLEN. He indicated to me that he was not employed.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that
correct?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. He told me that his--I knew he had a
wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some
friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where his wife was staying?
Mr. BALLEN. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De
Mohrenschildts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just
coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very
vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the
Oak Cliff region.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous
employment?
Mr. BALLEN. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him
and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop
some employment for him.
He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in
the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction,
but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his
lack of any usable training.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told
you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may
have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper
in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use
commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a
result of his interview with you?
Mr. BALLEN. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started
out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having
a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out
feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had
been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore
on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a
rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded
individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him
down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting,
trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical
Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction
equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area
of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the
conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too
much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the
team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I
think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what
I could do.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this
to try to help him find a job?
Mr. BALLEN. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached
my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general
manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be
generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any
memory of my calling him in that regard.
Mr. LIEBELER. The other individual being the man in charge of
operations at Log Services?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this
conclusion that you have just expressed?
Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to
your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that
you and Oswald had that day?
Mr. BALLEN. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from
De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and
come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine
Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector.
I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this
Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for
himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors
had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He
gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion
of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was
hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there.
I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make
this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a
negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still
had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be
fairly realistic.
Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of
detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own
institutions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along
that line?
Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but
there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general
observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me
that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R.,
and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached
student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be
snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press
or official spokesmen.
He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses
type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me
the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible
industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he
could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept
saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he
said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you
worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it
became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think
will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular
hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective
reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him,
I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the
course of your discussion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited
as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would
have--this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I
would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards
President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You drew that inference simply as a general impression
based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically
that led you to that conclusion?
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor
Connally mentioned?
Mr. BALLEN. No; it was not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular
institution of the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our
religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he
referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the
United States. I cannot document that with any specific items which
were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this
had come out during that discussion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem?
Mr. BALLEN. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the
meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had
a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that
this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of
compassion for mankind generally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies
which had as their end racial prejudice?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt
that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of
any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable
you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced
by racist or hate propaganda?
Mr. BALLEN. You will have to make your question more specific.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who
would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated
with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind
of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the
position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union
and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of
plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute
their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the
situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward
hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them?
Mr. BALLEN. I think I understand your question, and there would have
been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular
organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain
difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to
the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not
ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in
this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as
heck to gain employment.
I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of
training you have, if you get employment."
And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training
other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work
he did in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am
sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I
have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have
worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about
camera and reproduction equipment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Mr. BALLEN. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as
to what his income was?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income
while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this--his job?
Mr. BALLEN. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a
little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?
Mr. BALLEN. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of
sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the
United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out;
and I got out."
I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious
effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she
was reporting to us that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts
were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty
miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at
each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to
bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people
and mingle and otherwise.
George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our
house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing
that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something
in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife
didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation
to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of
them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had
of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He
was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And
my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise
would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently
moved into Dallas from afar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember with any great specificity the things
that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such
an independent fellow?
Mr. BALLEN. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have,
a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the
shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within
the Soviet Union in any way?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that he had done considerable
traveling there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you
get that information or impression?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet
Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just
incredibly boring and dismal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring
or dismal in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came
down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to
impose on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you question him--did you have questions in your own
mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who
could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very
little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he
did, engender a certain amount of sympathy.
In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and
if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like
that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get
around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of
money to do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him
money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing
that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the
wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit;
"Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get
myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to
a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had
received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was
in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about
photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated
that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and
understanding of that type of machinery?
Mr. BALLEN. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment
myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different
types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous
cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Marina?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital
when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the
Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his
return to the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this
thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and
now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into
all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because
he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to
renounce his citizenship?
Mr. BALLEN. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would
have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a
job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was
employed and lived in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so
much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and
what I have read in the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was
employed in the city of Minsk?
Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. I would have thought that he would
have--my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of
Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't ask him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his
wife when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as his return to the United States is concerned,
you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to
leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the
bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any
resentment?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made
life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human
being.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and
Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating
to possible resentment of the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the
Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as
Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians
who had delayed his return, is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, it was a matter of working then through these
bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the
American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the
same?
Mr. BALLEN. I would say about equal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning
politics?
Mr. BALLEN. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to,
parenthetically.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational
background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and
that sort of thing?
Mr. BALLEN. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate
conclusion I came to was that he left--that he lacked educational
training.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper
in New Orleans?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction
facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans,
and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in
New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you
about his activities in New Orleans?
Mr. BALLEN. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans,
and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban
committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this
was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with
any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or
any part of the political spectrum.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist?
Mr. BALLEN. He may have--I think I had the feeling that he, to the
extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and
was a critic of societies along Marxist lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about
religion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I
think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview
with him, made statements to reenforce that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about
Oswald before you actually met Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir.
Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had
been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either
for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred,
and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of
Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking
young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length
in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back
who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow
with no hatred.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no
hatred of anything?
Mr. BALLEN. That is what--De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that
his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with
hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions
connected with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind
when you met and talked to Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent;
yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that
he would have had a little disdain for both sides.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get the impression, however, that he was
emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two
sides? Would that be a fair statement?
Mr. BALLEN. Definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not
be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda
that might be disseminated in the country?
Mr. BALLEN. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and
would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United
States, including our Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced
by propaganda of this sort?
Mr. BALLEN. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't
appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference,
to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress
me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way,
and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to
involve him in my firm, which means a team operation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person
or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence?
Mr. BALLEN. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the
unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the
degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It
was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable?
Mr. BALLEN. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen?
Mr. BALLEN. Too much a hard head?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that?
Mr. BALLEN. I--just his general conduct, his general responses, general
bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just
seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively,
a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally
ill, I didn't come away with that feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at
self-improvement or self-education that you could give us?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership,
literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little
curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of
reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as
someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian
literature?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to
comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he
understood them to be Marxian leanings?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly
his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity
to go into that with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about
December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and
Mitchell.
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were
familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings?
Mr. BALLEN. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I
have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your answer was?
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were
unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of
the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective
on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the
newspapers--all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the
best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my
memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not conscious of any difference in those two
answers?
Mr. BALLEN. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the
same as my answer here today.
Mr. LIEBELER. Assuming that was your answer that day?
Mr. BALLEN. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my
best memory and best recollection at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relationship between
Oswald and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events
after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George
meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this
fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for
individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his
wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that
this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were
leaving for Haiti.
George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a
week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes
more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house
at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the
Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at
the wall and fighting each other."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was
an attempt made on the life of General Walker?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss
either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that
occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some
pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed
it with him in any great----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in
connection with the attempt on Walker's life?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he did?
Mr. BALLEN. I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald
owned a rifle?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact
that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind
in that conversation?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first
time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that?
Mr. BALLEN. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday
morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of
about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people,
that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but
some other stray dog.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who this other stray dog was?
Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his
way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria.
Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently disappeared from the scene?
Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De
Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. BALLEN. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize
that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3
hours later that this was the chap I met.
I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake,
that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and
she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the
gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if
you lined up 50 individuals, the one person who would stand out as
being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very
surprised when Oswald was arrested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further conversations along that line
with your wife?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would
naturally discuss it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to
your wife when you first learned of the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren
Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as
reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there
remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to
seeing the published report.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it
not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had
any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to
commit an act of this sort, is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any contact between Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. Approximately 1955, maybe 1954.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since
this assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. Only through the mails.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have corresponded with him since the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write about the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that
mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his
environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very
guarded way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me in general what you wrote to him?
Mr. BALLEN. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said
in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was--I wanted to know
that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he
understood what I was asking him.
And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and
Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened,
because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed
mind out into the open air.
And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me
for what she thought were kind sentiments.
Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and
let him know I wondered how he was getting along.
And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race
riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let
us hear from you."
Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were
guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George
and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him?
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the letters he wrote to you?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his
wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of
letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them
until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are
the only letters that I have ever saved.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned De Mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, his wife's daughter.
Mr. LIEBELER. His wife's daughter?
Mr. BALLEN. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are their names?
Mr. BALLEN. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De
Mohrenschildts call them Buggers.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a
period of time?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long, approximately?
Mr. BALLEN. About 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. They originally resided in Anchorage, Alaska, is that
correct?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, that is where they formerly resided; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have they permanently moved from Anchorage?
Mr. BALLEN. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from
him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and
Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. They say they had not, and in thinking through the
chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some
confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual
who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try
to help.
They drove him to east Texas once and to a timber farm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the other person whom you described a little
while back as another stray dog?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have
any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said
about the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly
stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and
that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently
had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to
be banding about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and
Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying
publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the
assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy?
Mr. BALLEN. They told me that they stated that at a reception for
members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when that reception was?
Mr. BALLEN. It would have been while Chris and Rags were in Haiti.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt
make this remark?
Mr. BALLEN. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your
question directly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the
dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince?
Mr. BALLEN. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through
my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my
house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come
through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and
they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did they show up at your house again for the second
time?
Mr. BALLEN. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been
at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at
about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house
March 1, and left March 15, more or less.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the
conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks
allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house.
Mr. BALLEN. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that
they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all
of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that
sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission.
The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed
him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and
probably had a tail on him.
He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty
serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he
then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see
him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and
so they came out to my house and interviewed him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks
that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made?
Mr. BALLEN. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was
there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room
where they were.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the agent who came out?
Mr. BALLEN. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from
California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the two agents that interviewed you when?
Mr. BALLEN. About March 6th or 7th.
Mr. LIEBELER. The interview that you have just referred to concerns
your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that
the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and
Raymond P. Yelchek?
Mr. BALLEN. The gentleman who came out to my house was Mr. Wood.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was Mr. Wood that interviewed Rags, is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags discuss with you the interview after the agent
had left?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with
De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark
that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President?
Mr. BALLEN. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested
vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already
known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated
into quite a personality clash.
I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very
critical on personal grounds of Rags.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why was De Mohrenschildt critical of Rags, do you
remember?
Mr. BALLEN. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question
now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal
matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a
son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that
his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons
seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and
maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about.
But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a
personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything--any bearing
here. If you want me to discuss it, I will.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a
purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me.
Mr. BALLEN. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his
overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall
nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this
was one of the sources of some conflict.
Mr. LIEBELER. They had political differences, in other words, also?
Mr. BALLEN. In their overall perspective; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told us everything that you can remember
about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De
Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell
us everything about that that you can remember, either about your
conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation
with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De
Mohrenschildt's statements.
Mr. BALLEN. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there
was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by,
well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the
French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a
foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also
at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free
republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result
of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else
who was at this party, that you can remember?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with
me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there.
I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's
statement and was known to the American Embassy down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Rags said about that?
Mr. BALLEN. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that
George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American
Embassy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had
been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that
he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr.
Wood--was that his name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood was the gentleman who interviewed Rags.
Mr. BALLEN. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood
indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his
interview of you, is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and
Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and
Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they
were looking fine.
But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told
him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And
he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the
gray flannel suit boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you any details of his conversation with
the FBI?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your
knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any
reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been
involved in the assassination in any way?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this matter with anybody?
Mr. BALLEN. Would you make your question a little more specific?
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De
Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized
that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I
then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better
have a good answer to that one.
And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian
colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met
him through George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Mr. Bouhe about that?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I haven't seen George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and
Oswald had met through Bouhe?
Mr. BALLEN. It would have either been Declan Ford or Natasha Voshinin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility
that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the
assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anybody else discuss that question?
Mr. BALLEN. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is,
the first time I have heard that question raised is today.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified,
when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that
De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De
Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is
that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the
contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did
you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with
Oswald prior to the assassination?
Mr. BALLEN. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the
feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their
leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt
corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti?
Mr. BALLEN. I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other matter about which you might
have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think
should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with
this matter?
Mr. BALLEN. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely
discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed
up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and
finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and
consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best,
but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I
would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as
anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was.
George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were
both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were
befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good
personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth
in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning
the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy.
Mr. BALLEN. Do I have any reason to believe that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would
only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my
mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative
possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000
other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some
unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either
of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that
the FBI was involved?
Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De
Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have
uttered?
Mr. BALLEN. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state,
that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there
any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief?
Mr. BALLEN. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That
there are no reasons, and this is a madness.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he
believed this?
Mr. BALLEN. None were expressed to me; no, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you want to add?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Ballen.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK
The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert Jenner.
Mrs. Dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please?
I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear
that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Be seated please.
Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff
counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the
President of the United States to investigate the assassination of
President Kennedy.
Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the
President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United
States No. 137.
Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for
the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your
deposition taken?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive
order and the resolution to which I have made reference?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine
American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution,
the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain
respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons
involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information
that you have some possible information that might help us with respect
to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you
about that.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am ready.
Mr. JENNER. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and
relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to
happen to you.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I'm not afraid.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly pronounce your name?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's all right.
Mr. JENNER. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is
[spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. You live at 3542-1/2 10th Street in Fort Worth?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of
Dallas--because I understand that would offend you.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir [laughter].
Mr. JENNER. But it is a large Texas city about, what--25 or 30 miles
from here?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I like it very much.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the
Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that's a beautiful store.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It is--it is beautiful store and nice place to work--and
I like it.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Fort Worth?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. How long I'm in Fort Worth?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let me see--I think it was from August.
Mr. JENNER. Of what year?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Last year.
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962--yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And where have you resided prior to August 1962?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Why?
Mr. JENNER. Where? You came to Fort Worth in August 1962, did you say?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah; yeah.
Mr. JENNER. From where?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. From Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had been a resident of Dallas up to that time?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long had you been a resident of Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, about 4 years--and 3, 4 months.
Mr. JENNER. And from where had you come when you came to Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Belgium--Brussels.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Belgium?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am a citizen of Belgium.
Mr. JENNER. You are a citizen----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Born in Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered
personal questions but I'm not merely curious--I'm seeking information.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thirty-seven.
Mr. JENNER. Thirty-seven.
Are you married?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been married?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In this country or in Belgium or in Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was married in Belgium.
Mr. JENNER. Married in Belgium?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband come with you to this country?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. He came first to United States, and I came afterward.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you
were born, to Belgium.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the
war and brought to Germany--Dusseldorf.
Mr. JENNER. Was this your parents and you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; just sister--an older sister and I and that's all.
We are separated from the family.
Mr. JENNER. And the German Army took you to Dusseldorf?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies,
essentially?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. The Americans.
Mr. JENNER. The Americans?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
And you and your sister went to Belgium, did you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; 1945. After the war.
Mr. JENNER. Now, my arithmetic is very bad. How old were you then?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1945?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, 17.
Mr. JENNER. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were
captured by the Germans?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you live in Russia when you were captured by the
Germans?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Rostov.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-s-t-o-v?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or is that "o-w"?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; it's "v".
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any brothers?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just yourself and your sister were the only children?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And a little sister--she was born after the war, in
1947. So, I haven't seen her.
Mr. JENNER. Your parents are still in Russia as far as you know?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. They are; yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Were either of your parents active politically in Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Active politically?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist
Party, for example?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Were you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is your husband still in this country?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You don't?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago--3-1/2 years
ago. I don't know where he is.
Mr. JENNER. I take it for part of this time at least--was he an
American?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he was from White Russia.
Mr. JENNER. White Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were married in Belgium, were you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he preceded you to this country?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he settle here in the Dallas area?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he settled for awhile. And--uh--he never settled
down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a
better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here.
Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. His occupation?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. He was a draftsman.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is he now an American citizen?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard yes.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And you certainly are?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not yet.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you're not yet?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. What status are you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. What is your status? Have you applied?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I
would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't
write. So that's why I have to go to school first.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, to write English?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. To have examinations you have to learn writing
English.
Mr. JENNER. I see. But you are doing that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; I study at home.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; great document!
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of your marriage?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No children.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a lady by the name of Anna Meller?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes pronounced "Miller"?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me your acquaintance with Anna Meller. How did it come
about?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. When I came to United States----
Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. What year was that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think it was 1960.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to the United States and you came to
Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You joined your husband here?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with Anna Meller?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not through him.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Through George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of--what is
today? Yes, Monday.
George Bouhe--he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great
interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a
little church, did he not?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, he helps everybody I know.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's a short, bald-headed man?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps
everybody--Germans, Belgians, everybody.
Mr. JENNER. He's a generous man?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. He just like to help. That's all----
Mr. JENNER. He's bouncy and vigorous. All right. I interrupted you. Go
ahead.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay.
Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with Anna Meller?
Mrs DYMITRUK. Yes; I met her at George's house----
Mr. JENNER. You met her where?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. At George Bouhe's house.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I
go visit her at home.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What church is that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It's the Russian church.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Orthodox Church?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Russian Orthodox Church. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of it? Saint somebody or other?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One
is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times
I went to George Bouhe--but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's
his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just
likes everybody to go there--but I prefer to go to this one--Father
Dimitri's church.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party
somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband.
Mr. JENNER. In their home?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In 1962, you were living in Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962; yeah.
Mr. JENNER. You had an apartment of your own at that time?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where was that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr. JENNER. McKinney?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. McKinney Avenue. Yes. Palm Gardens Apartments.
Mr. JENNER. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange
between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your
befriending or harboring another lady--taking somebody into your
home--your apartment?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. No?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation at any time between you and
Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home
temporarily?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just
one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation--I
remember it--that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody
in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her
husband.
Mr. JENNER. Separated?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to
help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of her at that time?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard about her, yes; but I haven't met her.
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe.
Both of them.
Mr. JENNER. Told you about----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and
she are looking for--uh--to help--for somebody can help her to find a
living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with
somebody, but I don't know with whom.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about
this lady?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; she told me--yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did she--what did they tell you about her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I visit her on Sunday once and--uh--she told me that
Marina was in her apartment for a week.
Mr. JENNER. Had lived with Mrs. Meller a week?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her
husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her
baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. The husband would not take them to the hospital?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. The baby to the hospital or to see a doctor.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she asked me----
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Meller asked you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see
her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've
got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to
go. So--and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't
know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better
go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me
the address and she says, "If you can go--if you go to her and see
her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary--English
dictionary--hers and George Bouhe's--dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay."
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the
Oswalds, would you please bring with you----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. English-language and Russian-language dictionaries----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were English.
Mr. JENNER. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would
then bring them----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. To her.
Mr. JENNER. To Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Those books were at Marina's house.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and
other one, Anna Meller gave it to her.
Mr. JENNER. And they were both English-language dictionaries?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; English-Russian.
Mr. JENNER. English-Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
So, she asked me to bring it back--those books.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, it was on Tuesday early in the morning----
Mr. JENNER. Tuesday?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. I thought you said Thursday?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; Tuesday is my day off.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house--I found her
house--and----
Mr. JENNER. Was she at home?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first,
to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute--maybe 5 or 10
minutes--and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was
so many apartments--some empty--and, you know, I just couldn't find
her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I
knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald
and she said, "Yes."
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you ever met Marina Oswald?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The
first I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Okay.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. She said, "well, yes?"
And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me
that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you
to bring that baby to the hospital."
"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with
him. I don't know what to do."
And I said, "Where is he?"
"Well, he's working."
I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I
said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?"
She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I
don't know."
I said, "Well, okay. Let's go to the hospital."
Mr. JENNER. Were you speaking in Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian
language--you speak Russian well?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak
Russian well?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So--and she said that the baby had 103----
Mr. JENNER. Fever?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Fever. And I said--it was some kind of cold
weather--"You had better put some warm clothes--and in the car it's
warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby."
She said, "Well, all right."
So, it was about 10 o'clock or 10:30----
Mr. JENNER. In the morning?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In the morning.
I went to the Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we'll just hesitate a minute.
Did you enter the apartment?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around
the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or
did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You
know.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh--I think she was all right. And house was clean. And
it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment
when I came to United States--so----
Mr. JENNER. So, she was neat, the apartment was neat and clean----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she was neat and clean?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression
of her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what sex was this baby--girl or boy?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was a girl.
Mr. JENNER. A little girl. About how old?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. (Gesturing with hands.) Baby couldn't walk. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting
at. She was carrying the baby in her arms?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about
her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they
getting along well--or what was your impression in that respect?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I haven't seen him at all--so, I couldn't say
anything----
Mr. JENNER. I know, but from what she said, Mrs. Dymitruk?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, that's what she said about her husband--that he's
against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to
pay the bills.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't
have to pay anything or maybe something--I don't know.
So, I took her to the hospital with her baby.
Mr. JENNER. You went to the Parkland Hospital here in Dallas?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you drove Marina and her child?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Okay.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked
the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature
to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have
a children's doctor here."
Mr. JENNER. Do not have a children's doctor?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver
babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's
doctor.
Mr. JENNER. Yeah.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't
know what to do with the baby now."
"Well, if you can come in the evening."
Mr. JENNER. The doctor or the attendant said----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That was the nurse.
And she said, "Well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the
children."
I said, "Is it possible to find somebody else right now?"
Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know--I don't have my own
children but really I was scared to see baby.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to
another children's hospital in Dallas."
And that's what I did.
Mr. JENNER. You and Marina and the baby then drove to----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where that was?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little
hospital--children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to
pay anything.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Just for children.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children
there waiting.
Mr. JENNER. 40?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. There were so many children.
And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is
possible right away.
Mr. JENNER. Because the baby has a fever?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and she said, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help it."
Mr. JENNER. Cannot?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. "I cannot--because they have so many children here and
you have to wait your turn."
I said, "Maybe those children----"--I see around there--playing
around--so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't
you take baby right away?"
"Oh, no; you have to wait 3 or 4 hours"--or something like that.
I said, "Well, I'm sorry. We have to go home."
So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her,
"Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If
you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening."
She said, "Yes."
So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock--maybe 5 o'clock or
something--I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her
husband wasn't home.
Mr. JENNER. Was not?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you
to the hospital. Do you want to go?"
She said, "Yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back."
I said, "Okay."
So he came home and first he was eating----
Mr. JENNER. Were you introduced to him?
Mr. DYMITRUK. Yes. She said, "That's my husband." And he spoke Russian
to me.
Mr. JENNER. He did speak Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and I was really surprised--in short time, he spoke
nicely.
Mr. JENNER. He spoke pretty good Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
So--and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby.
And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay."
So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and
they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a real argument?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was. Yes. I could hear from the kitchen that they
argued.
Mr. JENNER. It was a heated argument?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were just--uh--I don't know what it was all
about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to
the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't
want to go, she did?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to go but he----
Mr. JENNER. He did not want to go?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the
hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right."
So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were
children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He--the
doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray--a lung X-ray and, I don't
know, all kind of tests, right away.
So, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, I think it was two
copies or three copies of papers----
Mr. JENNER. From the hospital?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. From the doctor to go to the service desk.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, at the service desk--he was standing here
[indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the
baby. So--and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's
working, and he said "No."
Mr. JENNER. Not working?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment--do you get
some unemployment money?"
He said, "No."
And she said, "Well, how do you live then?"
He said, "Well, friends helping me."
And Marina--she was behind me--and she says, "What a liar!"
And they argue again.
Mr. JENNER. They argued--between the two of them?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, in Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just
told us?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's what she told. That's what she told.
Mr. JENNER. Did he hear her say that--is what I'm----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes--because then they were in argument.
Mr. JENNER. Then, they got in an argument?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the argument about?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, about the--that he is not working--because he was
lying.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say why he lied?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. He didn't say anything.
So, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I
think so--but he put it in his pocket.
Mr. JENNER. He put the paper in his pocket?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In his pocket.
And so we came out and I brought them home--and I didn't come into the
house.
Mr. JENNER. They just got out of the car and went in?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. They didn't say anything--thank you or
what--anything.
Mr. JENNER. To you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. They just got out?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay
any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is
free. It's suppose to be free here, too."
I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted.
Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With him?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him [laughing]----
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of
his argument was that these things were free in Russia----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they should be free in the United States?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he
shouldn't be paying?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; that's what he figures.
Mr. JENNER. When, if ever, did you next see either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime--I think was
in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked
in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store--located
in Wyatt's Store there.
Mr. JENNER. That's a supermarket?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. And I managed the bakery.
So, I saw her shopping----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I assume you speak French, too, do you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very little.
Mr. JENNER. Very little?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. Flemish and German.
Mr. JENNER. Flemish and German and Russian--and English?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And English.
Mr. JENNER. You do very well with English.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her
dressed maternity.
Mr. JENNER. So she had the same child she had the year before?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she was pregnant with another child?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was dressed like she was.
And I just saw her from far--and I said, "Marina?"
"Oh!" she says, "How are you?"
I said, "Okay."
Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. And she said, "Do you see anything on me?"
I said, "Well, I don't know."
She said, "Well, I expect another baby."
I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your
husband doing?"
"Oh, he's in New Orleans. And I'm going to New Orleans, too."
And there was another lady with her.
Mr. JENNER. There was another lady? Would you describe the other lady,
please?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was tall, black hair. She spoke Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was her command of Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very--not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I
thought she was English first--her type of face.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American--and I went to the
university and studied Russian--and I practice now with Marina."
I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need
another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the
Russian language.
And I thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]--I don't know.
And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say
that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive
Marina to New Orleans?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right.
Mr. JENNER. What time of the year was this?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Years and dates, I'm just lost.
Mr. JENNER. Well, was it in the spring?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, no, no. It was in summertime.
Mr. JENNER. It was in the summertime?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I
think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the last time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you saw Marina?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the last time you had even any indirect
contact--people speaking of her--that is, prior to November 22--did you
hear about her in between?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. Not at all?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you were assisting them with their child and went to
their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think it was in Oak Cliff.
Mr. JENNER. In Oak Cliff?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think was in Oak Cliff.
Mr. JENNER. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald
and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there
any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of
his views with respect to Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just only about the hospitalization.
Mr. JENNER. Only the hospitalization?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with
Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether
he had been in Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You knew that before--well, I'll ask you this: How did you
know he had been to Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew from George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. From George Bouhe?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he told me about it--uh--one person who went to
Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby--back to
United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing--that he learned
something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back.
He was just lucky that he did come back to United States."
Mr. JENNER. He was fortunate that he could come back?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were
taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her
a good many hours?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh--let me see. It was maybe till 2 o'clock--2:30 maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting
Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their
lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls
have some smalltalk?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just about life in United States; not in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Not in Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
She told me that her husband want to go back to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. "And I don't want to go," she say.
Mr. JENNER. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your
recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including
himself and her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he
was going to stay here?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he wanted to go with her.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't
go--because I like here and I don't go."
Mr. JENNER. I see. But she did make a point of telling you about that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this
day when you were with them for a good many hours?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; with her.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--with her.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says,
"United States, I do--but not everything"
I said, "What you mean--not everything?"
"Well, just the same problem--the hospitalization and the doctors."
I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a
company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then
if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's how I explain to her.
"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia--my baby was born in
Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there
was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby--and why is
it not in United States like this?"
I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries--Russia and
United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will
understand."
Mr. JENNER. And did you explain to her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I explained about this hospitalization what we have here.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have
to go doctor, you pay the visit."
I said, "You can go to the hospital--to the Parkland Hospital and it
cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything."
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to
doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why,
that's nothing."
"Well, I can't afford it."
I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital--to Parkland
Hospital--to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything."
That was the only--what she complained about.
Mr. JENNER. But otherwise she thought well of the United States?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. She liked it.
Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to stay; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, she did not want to go back to Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.
Mr. JENNER. But she told you that her husband did want to return to
Russia?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember specifically now?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I remember. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to
go back with her?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want
to go, he can go by himself. I stay here."
Mr. JENNER. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time
you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United
States?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very
disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in
Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the
street.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. And that's why he was always so upset.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.
Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would
like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you
think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important
investigation?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who
goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them
back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave
United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have
experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood,
I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason
that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life--I mean
the Communists. I can't see that.
Mr. JENNER. You have a personal aversion to communism?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia
with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And not encourage him to return to the United States?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not encourage--or if he ask to come back, just let him
stay there.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. All right.
Anything else?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let's see--Uh--one thing that I'm just always wonder
about Marina and her husband--that she knew--if she knew that her
husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in
that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her
husband tried to do this.
Mr. JENNER. It's your viewpoint about----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. That she should have disclosed that?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. Husband or no husband, I would feel that I
should.
Mr. JENNER. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a
husband, or whomever it might have been----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have
been disclosed to the police or the Government?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, you ask questions. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. I can't think of anything at the moment.
Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter
hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the
course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in
questioning you that you think is pertinent here?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Everything that's pertinent I have questioned you about?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine
young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you
desire, or not--as you see fit. And some people like to read it over
and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's
optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do
this if you want. You also may waive it.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right.
Mr. JENNER. You would prefer to waive it?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. What I say is truth.
Mr. JENNER. Well, all right.
Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's
certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR
The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please?
In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently--I guess it was
last week--a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the
Presidential Assassination Commission----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your
deposition?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's true.
Mr. JENNER. And was there included with that letter a copy of the
Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November
29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and
directs that it prescribe its procedures----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No.
137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the
creation of the Commission?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was.
Mr. JENNER. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint
resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating
all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the
assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances
surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it.
We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and
from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds
and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and
that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might
be helpful.
I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will
notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions
here in Dallas and conduct the examination.
And you appear here voluntarily?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your full name is Gary--[spelling] G-a-r-y E. Taylor?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What's your middle name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Edward.
Mr. JENNER. And you live in Fort Worth--is that correct, sir?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I live in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Dallas? And your address in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a married man?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Family?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many children?
Mr. TAYLOR. One.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your age?
Mr. TAYLOR. Twenty-three.
Mr. JENNER. You are an American citizen?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your wife is an American citizen?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your children born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area of the country?
Mr. TAYLOR. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since
1951.
Mr. JENNER. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring
you to Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I moved here with my parents.
Mr. JENNER. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your
business or occupation or profession?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co.
Mr. JENNER. And what is the Sellers Co?
Mr. TAYLOR. A recording company whose primary function is the recording
of radio and television commercials.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been in that business?
Mr. TAYLOR. I went to work for them in September.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I
was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip
and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time
jobs and attended college at Arlington State.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a graduate of Arlington State?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student.
Mr. JENNER. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3
years at Arlington State?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Are you attending there at night--is that a night school?
Mr. TAYLOR. They hold night classes. I'm not attending.
Mr. JENNER. During the time you had your interest, which you still may
have, in--what did you say--photographing?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around
television commercials.
Mr. JENNER. Are you an amateur camera fan?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either
Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which of the two did you meet first?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same
day in their home.
Mr. JENNER. On the same occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information about them prior to the time
you met them?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I had.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or
was it a purposeful meeting?
Mr. JENNER. It was prearranged.
Mr. JENNER. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a
moment, if we can defer that for a bit.
Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to
your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds
and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now
indicated?
Mr. TAYLOR. All right.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, how did it come about--from the beginning
of the world to the present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--about a week before I met them, uh--my wife was told of
them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or
Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the
present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name--given name?
Mr. TAYLOR. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic].
Mr. JENNER. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes--uh--it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it--Zhon.
I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm
not familiar with it.
Mr. JENNER. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife--what was her
maiden name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne----
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And she was the daughter of whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as
Mrs. J. M. Brandel.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name.
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l.
Mr. JENNER. And the present Mrs. Brandel--she was the wife of George De
Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. No. I appreciate that. Where does she live now?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B.
Mr. JENNER. Will you spell that?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a B.
Mr. JENNER. Just the letter B?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in
Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy.
Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she has remarried--and her name is Brandel.
Mr. JENNER. How many children were born of that marriage?
Mr. TAYLOR. One.
Mr. JENNER. Just your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second
wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. The first wife--to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs.
Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also
was married to at least one, if not two other women?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, I am aware of one other one.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind?
Mr. TAYLOR. I know very little about her, other than that her name is
Dee--her first name is Dee.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] D-e-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee?
Mr. TAYLOR. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of
which is deceased.
Mr. JENNER. And the one who still survives is male or female?
Mr. TAYLOR. Female.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know her name and whereabouts?
Mr. TAYLOR. Her given name is Nodjia--and I do not know the spelling of
it. It is, I believe, a Russian name.
Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it phonetically?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic).
Mr. JENNER. Is she married?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. She's a minor.
Mr. JENNER. She's still a minor?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe in Philadelphia--but I can't be sure of that.
Mr. JENNER. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her
mother in Philadelphia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince,
Haiti?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt
and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in
Port-au-Prince, Haiti?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
(Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr. JENNER. In order that the record be not too confused, I think
it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your
meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back
when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper
perspective.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we,
Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the
De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De
Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. We will bring that out later.
(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by
referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting
how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.)
Your REPORTER. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was
told of them by either her father or stepmother--Mr. and Mrs. George De
Mohrenschildt."
Mr. JENNER. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there.
Mr. TAYLOR. They explained to us that----
Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. Explained to my wife----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth
with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts
were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert
and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De
Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go on.
Mr. TAYLOR. We----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an
American being back here with a Russian wife--or was this entirely new
to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of
either one of them prior to this.
Mr. JENNER. And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the
record, the wife you now speak of--that is, back in 1962--that is not
your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. But that wife--what was her maiden name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one
Sunday afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "them," you mean----
Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and
also----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over
there?
Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address
and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law
and mother-in-law present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were.
Mr. JENNER. And where was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the
number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house.
Mr. JENNER. It was a house--not an apartment?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a
duplex.
Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or
rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare
or new furniture--or what did it look like inside?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember,
uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however,
clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there.
Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two
persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was.
Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De
Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother
was there.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was
there--John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her
name--first name.
Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Elena.
Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the
time that you stepped into this room?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your
first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance
with Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what
anybody said?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that
afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what
preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a
question in your mind as distinct from something that was said----
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish
a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left
shortly after I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit?
Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that
one afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this
particular occasion you are now relating?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media
activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in
those few minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman
who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there
that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in
anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion
from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and
Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them;
that they had very little communication between them; that they
were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other.
Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962--did you say?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented.
Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things
that--uh--some of Lee's observations about Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or
I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke
Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John
Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts,
and George Bouhe does.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts--your
mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough
to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was
spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others
who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any
attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and
pick up?
Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly
and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.
Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated
that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and
observations about Russia. Would you continue from that point,
indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's
experiences in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked
of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can
remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather
than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that
day.
Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll
probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on.
But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to
make.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed
the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his
general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his
observations of family life there.
He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he
remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this
approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there
were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family
units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and
where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and
Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal
fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration
for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that
everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.
He went into some detail about what is received directly from the
State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen
receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine.
A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the
house--apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to
pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what
other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month
for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in
that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student
that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a
student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to
a level of which they are capable and then put to work.
And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit
further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that
salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as
you continue through the years on a skilled job.
Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job.
Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases?
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for
example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles
a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time,
he gets a raise over and above that.
Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of
time and has no relation to skill?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he
gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for
example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald,
is the compensation the same?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be.
Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that
someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--I don't
remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200
rubles a month for performing the same task.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the
ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a
month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American
money?
Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me
that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free
services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out
of his 45 rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food
and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare
minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.
Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his
impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed
little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these
things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of
these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in
some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of
stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the
families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.
Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective
in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room
apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average
Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that----
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or
speculating from things you have read in works published with respect
to life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia
that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would
probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That
living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories
so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what
was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the
end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month
earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made
about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did
mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and
that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina
worked as well as he?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married
or not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that
wives worked?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He
didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember
much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, I
should say, they are encouraged to work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on
his reaction toward this life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. He--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that
he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that
they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words,
to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or
say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this
privilege as we enjoy it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities
on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded
him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or
foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work
comparable to his? This is, was he treated or accorded benefits
different from or in addition to those which would normally have been
accorded him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians
put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was
less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt
like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming
sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to
do.
Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with
him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself
that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at
least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected,
as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he
were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and
that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of
course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.
Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what
he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an
impression on your part?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a distinct impression or----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have
asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more
money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that
he----
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached
the subject.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to
what he told you of his life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his
part--that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for
example, going hunting?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever
discussed by him with you?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up
to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.
Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him
discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States
and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties
and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to
this--return to this country with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort
prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had
married Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject
discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and
himself?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you
with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in
Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any
desire on her part to come to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings
about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that
they were important to him.
Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not
with you directly?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss
directly with you, their route back to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about
that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the
money to return.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished
now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area
of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political
philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or
government?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the
things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two
political governments--such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains
free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian
citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps
some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat
better than the average citizen lived.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed
in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian
Government?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his political philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I
knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem
particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country
or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and
perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but,
as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday
afternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job--which I
believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his
employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from
it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion
about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now
whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to
stay in my home.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we
invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said----
Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday
evening forward.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live
until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your
invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina
and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee
became established elsewhere?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then
atmosphere?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any
marital disharmony.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of
that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the
relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and
wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language
barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did
not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the
others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the
other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.
Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had
some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about
Russia and how people live there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that
meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in
their lives?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to
remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I
tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June,
returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed----
Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it.
And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall,
some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones
other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And
then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did
take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your
home, commencing that Sunday night?
Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of
course?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing.
Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where?
Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount.
Mr. JENNER. In what town?
Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12.
Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian,
your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty
with the language?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between
Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during
this week?
Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period
was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were
able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate
sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company
to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of
the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their
being able to play with the children and the children play with each
other.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say
2 weeks?
Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and
probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week
period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday
meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the
telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the
Y.M.C.A.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him
up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front
of the building?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going
into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.
Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used
the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?
Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him
and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going
in and his coming down to meet me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would
continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment
late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your
home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there
had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that
call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that
call?
Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife.
(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.)
Mr. JENNER. Now where were we?
Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about
people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that
there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And
George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he
could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at
some point during this period----
Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and
picked Marina up.
Mr. JENNER. At your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. At my home--and took her, I believe, to a dentist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of
them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly
because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from
her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the
whole period Marina was gone--which, as I remember it, was the better
part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not
sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a
charity--went to a charity dental clinic.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to
the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?
Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just
mother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law.
Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic?
Mr. TAYLOR. No--not to my recollection. I didn't take--uh--Marina
anyplace that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of
Dentistry?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out
at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your
home--first, the month?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none
of it in the month of October 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I
personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was
first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are
talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that
Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going
from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was
a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came--she came to my home for a
period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from
your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have
dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could
talk to him.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either
for yourself or for Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call
to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable
that I would have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do
so?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble
finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the
Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I
made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him
there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated
at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks
about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into
Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing
that arrested my attention.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine
qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her
child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her
dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all
that she could about her new environment.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home--you
mean----?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her
desire to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions,
this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning
English--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and
say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did
appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared
for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later
took them away from her.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series
of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and
becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your
present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall?
Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in
terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English
language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the English language
lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one
occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by
saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And
then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I
had knowledge of her being beaten by him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt----
Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first
apartment they had, on Elsbeth.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and
that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she
and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from
her, and----
Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her.
Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina
that said that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of
their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina
left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November----
Mr. JENNER. Left the home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember
who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was
told that she had left him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with
respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering
this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that--again,
it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to
my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present
at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication
between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I
couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But,
certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and
woman married would want some time alone together. They could have--we
had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could
have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing
intimate or personal between them at these meetings.
Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least,
conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were
evidences of love and affection?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during
the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions.
Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and
asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had
been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their
meetings, would call him and he would then come.
Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come----
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We
were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and I remember at
least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and
rode the bus back to town.
Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or
at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the
streets?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or
three occasions.
Mr. JENNER. With him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of
them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive,
and I never did.
Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to
teach a beginner how to drive.
Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he
was unable to operate an automobile?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to
attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in
Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the
various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions
they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to
you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on
your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. You never received anything?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and
Lee Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from
anybody."
Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the
expenditures that I made on their behalf.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was
there something that occurred in particular that brought about the
termination of that 2-week guest period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile
accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs.
Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least
semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself
food and so on.
Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by
associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which
one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.
Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or
reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your
memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile
accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any
respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas
and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?
Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help
care for Mrs. Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in
November--somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of
September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this
is all quite vague--I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got
him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up
Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had,
through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to
Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds'
house paraphernalia, clothing and other things----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to
be more specific as to how this came about?
Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I
got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably
aware of. But I don't remember.
And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of
January 1964.
Mr. TAYLOR. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those
agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the
YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where
Marina was living?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to
say this about it.
That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret
Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and
between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to
remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my
memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item,
it occurred to me that at one time--once--I went to--uh--and looked
for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and
tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't
remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh----
Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I
just remember some vague directions that----
Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely.
Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after----
Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15,
because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point
during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and
looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the
occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that----
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that
came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't
remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening
looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I
don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just
of Lee.
I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a
building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this
area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information
to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he----
Mr. JENNER. What location was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address--but it seems to
me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the
Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z--I--E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I think
they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off
on; but the name I do remember.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building.
Mr. JENNER. Brick?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds
occupy prior thereto?
Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than
the Elsbeth Street home, for example?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class.
Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to
ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely
sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly
or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving.
Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a
Sunday afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please.
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large
one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers
of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to
this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they
were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household
furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile,
and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?
Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place
located from which you rented the trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently
again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And
we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service
station where I had rented a small covered trailer and----
Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered.
Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with
Mr. Yelchek.
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a
mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your
recollection?
Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not
University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember.
This service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a
mile north of Texas Christian University.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon
investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one
evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.
Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied
you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first
talked to the FBI?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification.
There is no question about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively
identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since
then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at
this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one
for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it
was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too
involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is?
Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking.
(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr.
Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. 1606670.
(Hands license back to witness.)
Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's
license number on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal
procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle
license.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number?
Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers?
Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what?
Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year.
Mr. JENNER. They change the number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do.
Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit
letters "E" and "Y"?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number.
Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir?
Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for
Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.
Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are
what--your prefixes?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all
of the "N" and "P".
Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary."
Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three
letters?
Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the
three that we have just been discussing.
Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed?
Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's
and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You piled all this material in the covered trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. The same day.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded
trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street
in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there?
Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service
station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you,
was it?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who
paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say
specifically that Lee did it.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the
trailer in the first instance?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether
upon its return, he paid for it or you did?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance.
Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your
recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not
pay for it?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household
furniture and whatnot into their apartment?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their
apartment that same afternoon or evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening
or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't----
Mr. JENNER. Back with you where?
Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer.
I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not.
Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to
Fort Worth--just approximately?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was
rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're
wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances?
Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move--I am not, again, can't be specific
about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and
I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return
a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a
collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort
Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front
entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the
Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the
Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157.
And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either
all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald
on his trip or life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute?
It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing.
(Witness peruses document page by page.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy
of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages
of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in
New Orleans, and what not?
Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking.
Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete.
That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't
happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which
is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined 8 by 11-1/2 sheets?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was not?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it
typed?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking
about----
Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed.
Mr. JENNER. It was typed?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed--on white paper.
Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he
showed you. Now, would you please go on?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking
about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had
had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with
us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever
read it fully. I read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is
very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to
be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or
content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in
character, or do you have any impression about it?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it
such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was he living?
Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I
assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably
the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were
unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost
immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half
blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.
And we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great
detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the
manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed
perhaps an hour or 2 hours.
Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other,
on this occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I
arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was
sitting at a table, I think, reading and----
Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper?
Mr. TAYLOR. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper?
Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books
from the library.
Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading?
Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy.
I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy
of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the
title or name of the book.
Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he
had a copy of.
Mr. JENNER. But they were political----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and
philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy.
Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit
on this particular evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much
later----
Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant?
Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to----
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if
that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by
this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked
someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was
the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where
they had moved.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about
a block away. And I went there.
Mr. JENNER. What street was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. What town?
Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I
went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit.
Marina was at home. She--her English had improved enough for her to get
across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I
don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending
night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas--which is our technical high
school and----
Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small
balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I
thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's
toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and
I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.
Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the
afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in
Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early
evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it
was midafternoon.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was
working at all.
Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was
employed?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a
very, very vague recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand,
as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at
all at Crozier Tech.
I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words,
telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and
we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe.
And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I
would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10
minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was
in the night school?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school.
Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or
that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I
don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the
time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she
said he was employed and working and had work at that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but
it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee?
Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to
visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last
time I saw Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that
time. I know that he wanted it very badly.
Mr. JENNER. He called you for it?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one,
I think I got in the car and took it to him.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you
now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your
impressions of the Oswalds individually.
(Off-the-record discussion followed.)
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was,
first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be
well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I
don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject.
In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had
said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a
statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas
as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties
have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and
communism have.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was
very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of
the subject, why, Lee was through.
He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but
when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very
good case for it.
Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect?
Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would
get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly
emotional subject on everyone's part.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would
think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick
a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I
never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.
Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, I
wouldn't ever have expected this of him.
Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size?
Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size.
Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not
have expected him to----
Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or----
Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there
was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had
any black and blue marks on her person?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or
their policies?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at
that time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy.
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor.
I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take
exception to Government policies--definitely----
Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that
might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention
Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him
any money or give him any money?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their
behalf?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to
Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county.
Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you
either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help
in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness,
his personal habits in that respect?
Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn
several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his
last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and
Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her
treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about
it. It just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I
are dressed now--in a business coat?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would
be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee
Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because
there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I
saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons
in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been
closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been
so active in seeing that they got along well.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De
Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there.
It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to
Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee--such as where to
look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee
grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or
where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De
Mohrenschildts.
(Looking through papers.)
Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your
relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of
course, all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in
Russia and I believe he went to the----
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were----
Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter.
Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a
long period of time?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family.
He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von
Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm
not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the
University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their
Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York
City.
Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please.
Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs.
Brandel--in New York City.
Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born.
Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born?
Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather
quickly after she was born.
And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my
knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part
of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently
well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, I believe,
he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in
the business community.
And then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that
until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure.
Mr. JENNER. Was he then married?
Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt
but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter,
Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she
felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which----
Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a
half-sister of my wife's.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved.
Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we
dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started
attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more
until--uh--May or June of 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a
Nancy Tilton?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of
Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is she?
Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date
and she said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she
termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her
to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went
out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I
started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during
this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in
fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole
family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you
like the otherwise?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is.
Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married,
as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my
former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed
away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and
Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and
sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody.
When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs.
Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go
into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter
went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.
Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex.
Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to
Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I
met her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence
until I met her that evening, as previously described.
Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born?
Mr. TAYLOR. In China.
Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's
all my former wife knew of her.
She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side,
was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through
her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with
her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is
B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].
Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have
[referring to paper].
Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to----
Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was
just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China.
All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II.
And, as far as Mr. Bogo--as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was
in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems
and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he
was resident of a State mental hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar
[spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to
me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice
president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft.
I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is
a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character
to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he
seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he
must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht
that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a
period of 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What's his name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original
name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league
university--Cambridge, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton?
What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?
Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the
telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him
briefly on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First,
describe him. What kind of personality is he?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat
boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme
friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light.
Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small,
handsome, or otherwise?
Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a
very powerfully built man, like a boxer.
Mr. JENNER. Athletic?
Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes
him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is
a member of the staff.
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would
contact me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of
George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go
home.
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And
he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to
get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing
this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.
Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life.
The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.
Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things
like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52--is a
little unusual.
Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street?
Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel.
He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to
his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position
for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he
could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this
could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only.
Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week?
Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned
convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with
the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the
respects you have indicated in regards to him?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar.
Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does
she?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini.
Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's--uh--I have heard them say
everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed
democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia
and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again,
so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their
designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see--on November 21, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter
that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the
De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the
assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?
Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all
from them. My parents have received correspondence from them--none of
which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was
mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De
Mohrenschildts?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your
acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the
record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add
that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence
having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the
Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and
I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or
plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably
the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all,
to--uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have
traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to
Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo,
Tex., to the tip of South America----
Mr. JENNER. Panama?
Mr. TAYLOR. And----
Mr. JENNER. On beyond that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of
South America.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further
information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the
portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to
invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area
while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these
observations----
Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that
invasion preparation?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the
invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they
were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in
the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to
anyone--and when these acquaintances returned----
Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their
daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from
them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after
they returned?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them
being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton?
Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife,
Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital.
This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the
people----
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home----
Mr. JENNER. Where is that?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends
of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in
their home----
Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully
evicted them from it.
Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De
Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a
friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.
Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people
who owned the house?
Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who
owned it returned.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had
advance permission to occupy that home?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had
occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who
evicted them could determine from what was eaten and----
Mr. JENNER. In other words, they were trespassing?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
(Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De
Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement
by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are
stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down
through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of
the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And
it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De
Mohrenschildts' daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get.
What was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an
indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or
information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They
had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they
had traveled extensively through Communist countries.
Mr. JENNER. What countries?
Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and
Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had
met Marshal Tito.
Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period
that you were married to their daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage.
However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the
family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live--if
you know?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. Is she married?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson.
Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside--if you know?
Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since
they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said
that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other
than that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have
already said that you would like to add to the record that you think
might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further
investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is
there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the
record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is
pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record
statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said
on the record?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition
if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate
with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and
read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make
any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire
and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the
right to waive that if you see fit.
Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long
deposition--about Wednesday of next week.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much
longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for
coming here despite the inconvenience.
Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help.
TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV
The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's
Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing
voluntarily at our request?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if
you wish counsel?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it.
Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your
transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters
charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you
wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to
waive the signing of your deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would
like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of
a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If
you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.
Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning
probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would
that be convenient for you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning,
then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your
testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know
if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me.
Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go
ahead and spell it for us now.
Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not
"en" as you have it.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name.
Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic
spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and
the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway
Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number?
Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you
because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work
with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.
Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that
connection?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to
the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full
address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as
seismologist.
Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of
1955, when I took my present job.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or
with whom were you associated, prior thereto?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co.
Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.
Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist,
you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your
profession or your particular calling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced
person and I didn't speak English enough.
Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster
than I thought.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my
life--approximately at that time?
Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native
of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my
parents came to Latvia.
Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received
my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944,
we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to
South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg,
P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year,
excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.
Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g
[spelling], Germany.
Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time.
Mr. JENNER. When did you marry?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938.
Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us.
Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and
we haven't heard of him since that time.
Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a
distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something
different from the Russians?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know,
Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are
in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an
occupational force--I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital
of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.
Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is
approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between
master's and Ph. D.
Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time
and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. JENNER. In 1955?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November
of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located
here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.;
Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell,
N. Mex., and I left----
Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a
month.
Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee,
Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate,
Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company
at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.
Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went
quite a way.
Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological
computer for that particular company.
Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our
law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and
this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission,
and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by
the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint
resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr.
Mamantov.
I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on
Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You
are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the
taking of your deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had.
Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire,
and do you agree to waive it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal
terms.
Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there.
No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from
Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I
quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. With Sun?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in
October, the 1st of October 1955.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian
language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any
teaching of the language?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area.
I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in
1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was
the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No--1962 and 1963. Now,
I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.
Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite
extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished.
Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for
any law enforcement agencies?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have
translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage
certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with
divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here
in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the
first time for the police department.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called
upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or
of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or
translating?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of
Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice.
Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior
notice?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police
department?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's
Lieutenant--they call him Chief.
Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of
minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton,
C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right
now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.
Mr. JENNER. And who is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not
mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service.
And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and
then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first----
Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum.
Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with
this tragedy?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did
you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before
the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I
heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I
felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly
well his background here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time----
Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say----
Mr. JENNER. 4:30?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30.
Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr.
Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car.
Mr. JENNER. To pick you up?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was
sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird.
Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird?
Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane.
Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City
Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the
detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the
hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.
Mr. JENNER. You just went through that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that
I saw.
Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there?
Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine,
whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous
telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you,
your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943--we never
were separated.
Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a
young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that
moment? Knowingly?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally.
Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no
contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone
conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs.
Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I
never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into
another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought
in and she also had a baby.
Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then,
there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for
whom I interpreted.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him.
Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who
was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this
young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started
with "H".
Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he
will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.
Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of
recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and
relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at
least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the
responses--the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this
because--I mean--this was pure translation.
Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't
you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try
to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's
residence in Irving----
Mr. JENNER. To which she responded?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is
what I was getting at?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there.
Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but
I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember
approximately what she was asked.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine
around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's
home. She answered positively then.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--I'm sure that positively is affirmative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what
time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police
station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6
o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in
Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.
Mr. JENNER. The previous evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he
had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into
kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually
she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said
usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was
tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so,
so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to
eat breakfast. Now----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything
about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to
make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I
don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he
didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this--I don't want any
of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall
definitely.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand.
Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we
would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the
subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned
from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or
are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no
recollection, I would prefer you say so.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations
somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember
also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast;
apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her,
which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was
after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your
answers--do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she
stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning.
Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that
morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little
bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen
she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her.
From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him
and she ate.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that
she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then
rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you
recall that she said that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem--either I recall or I
recall future instances from translating her life history.
Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to
exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate--and to
exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your
mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that.
Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your
powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your
rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do
you understand?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't
return backward--I mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the
time he was leaving. After a while she got up.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning
it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the
translating you----
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left
the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to
the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for
the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought
he didn't eat.
Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember
how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check
her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage,
and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit
different position than she remember it before.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the
blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was
asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention
particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket.
Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it
looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but
she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this
moment the gun was brought in.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to
the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast----
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she
had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I
assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went
to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that
time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after
Marina finished.
Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked,
and did she respond on that subject?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that
question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection
with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the
day. Do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning,
or she voluntarily stated----
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the
kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for
the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and
think about it.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she
went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when
police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very
important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the
exact time.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you
first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the
kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went
during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do
not know.
Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before
noontime?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state.
Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the
police arrived, which was in midafternoon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked
about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a
very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen
before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the
questioning.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the
blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and
configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?
Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?"
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before.
After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it
was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he
get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would
bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if
she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at
this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or
not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in
the garage prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit
evasive answer.
Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your
opinion as to whether it was evasive.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it
were there.
Mr. JENNER. She did not know----
Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however,
she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that
Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and
you translated it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the
blanket in the garage?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the
blanket in the garage prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she
had discovered it prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark
brown--black, she said.
Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought
in the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was
actually brought into the room, and state what she said.
Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the
gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know,
she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked
her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it
was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color,"
and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her,
and at that time the gun was brought in.
Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go
back.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or
discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of
November 22, to examine the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon
or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and
this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it.
Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day,
what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position
as she has seen in the past.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in
the garage?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't
anything in it.
Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This
I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had
seen before, so much I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition,
shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from
what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had
seen it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a
package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the
package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22,
what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it
looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package
of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and
knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch
his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she
left it in same shape she had found it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of
the package?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back
so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the
package.
Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the
garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it
before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage
when she saw it on November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her
belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I
remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that
particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different
shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in
the garage in one of the corners.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the
gun.
Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or
condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of
placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when
she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain
what she discovered was a rifle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket
package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping
of that character?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package
brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into
the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was
with her when she did that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure--I don't know what happened before that.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day
at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of
Mrs. Paine and the police?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to
the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the
police were present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that
is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of
the police?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the
garage on two occasions that day.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like,
as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I
know. If you don't remember, you don't.
Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you
don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your
mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for
you to testify one way or the other.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best
you can, your recollection of what took place.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude
by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she
testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the
garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior
to the time the police arrived.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to
testify one way or the other on that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the
fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package--she saw
an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the
size of the package she testified it was.
Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that
she had seen the gun in sections?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Today?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the
record.)
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw,
and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and
she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there--so much--you
asked me.
Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will
be certain of it and see if we can find it.
(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred
to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following:
("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the
line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up
she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was
poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember,
and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a
few minutes.")
Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the
garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction,
what did she say?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the
point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or
she saw during the time when police arrived.
Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own
prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way
it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have
testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the
package, if she said anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific
questions about particular blanket.
Mr. JENNER. What questions?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation
to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat
whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage,
had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for
example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was
aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of
the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was
the sequence, as you recall?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the
premises of Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is
that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at
the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she
said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this
particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't
think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular
morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun
was with her belongings.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not
brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to
her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was
not brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in,
was the gun itself, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what
I mean by a sling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right
now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure--I wouldn't be sure of
the statement.
Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated
when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it
was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun
which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other
if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a
gun in the Soviet Union--I can say so much for sure and that's where I
didn't like this.
Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no
person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your
part, not what she said.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not
to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she
went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet
Union.
Mr. JENNER. Might have been?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question
was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she
said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns
even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was
this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she
was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled
the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are
dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you
some more questions.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself--all right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied
that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that
he had the gun that she had in mind?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun?
Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns,
he always was interested in guns--this statement she made.
Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a
rifle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a
reply.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on
that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination
of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically
as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I
went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the
blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it,
or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"--was she questioned that closely?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated.
Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether
there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon
in the blanket package?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she
was not examined on that subject?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether
she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon
she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was
asked.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or
information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it
was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt.
Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was
in Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in
Russia and supposedly was hunting here.
Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in
the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for
hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used
to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.
Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No.
Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June
1962.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and
reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in
Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.
Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had
hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen
him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally
or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their
home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth,
sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry
sighting is?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an
incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter,
she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the
translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry
sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle--I'll put it this
way--about her seeing him with a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Any weapon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall
about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle
was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned
about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said
on this occasion is relevant to us.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I
remember--I think I said everything I could remember.
Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything
that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of
each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when
the gun was brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down.
Mr. JENNER. Made notes?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her.
Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination
he summarized his notes in her presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't
write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs.
Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I
probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman
to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or
"me"--that's the mistake it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the
presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance
correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to
Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you
thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian
and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark
about the grammar.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.
Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled.
Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his
two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that
position (indicating).
Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)?
Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position.
Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to
examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in
the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are
the same, are a dark brown or black."
He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored.
He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the
gun--I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then
they asked her about a sight on the gun.
Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope--she said, "No; I never have seen gun
like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet
Union.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part
that she referred back to the Soviet Union?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way.
Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth,
so you can go ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union,
she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing."
Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever
it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have
a telescopic sight on it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part
of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said
again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was
the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling
it----
Mr. JENNER. The stock?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked
about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."
Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her
for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his
possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she
couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the
past.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they
questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it
weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she
had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how
close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that
the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all
she thought, to fairly summarize?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color
you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They
particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun
which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the
gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and
asked her if she has seen him carrying something.
Mr. JENNER. Carrying something?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see
him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.
Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left
that morning he was carrying anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her response was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house,
or whatever he was taking--means of transportation.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he
had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to
Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if
anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday
night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they
go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point
to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that
previous evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the
extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and
what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having
the gun, and "this is the gun he used."
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no
questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous
evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather
than on Friday as usual?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did they go into any questions with respect to the
acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or
in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?
Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place?
What was its duration?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. You
see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two
statements--from both of them.
Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's?
Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements
made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement,
as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of
Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and
Mrs. Paine's responses?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian.
Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether
Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2-1/2 or 3 hours
altogether for the typist to type that.
Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the
statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and
then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then
sign them.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were
present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to
Marina--yes, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina,
were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have
testified?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal
conversation more or less about the child who was present.
Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian,
were they conversations related to personal matters--the children?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to
her protection--Marina's protection.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back
to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she
looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent,
then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I
didn't want to go into conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you
are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be
deported in that event?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would
happen to her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the
best of your recollection that was said?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them?
Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that
3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember.
Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but
without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything
asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether
they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any
problems in that connection?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you
teach Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs.
Paine's command of the Russian language?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person
and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for
knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or
translated for Marina?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this
questioning?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my
mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.
Mr. JENNER. Was this some time afterward?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward.
Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no--the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the
picture.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then?
Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened
the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody
else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and
started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like
in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very
little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I
heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around
and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young
men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so
surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station.
Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me
in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself
immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her
at the police station and my name is so and so.
In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for
me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I
said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am
very tired."
That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement
of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going
up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me
somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into
the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group
again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the
escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out
was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told
him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please
call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you
through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything
about this particular occasion.
Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also
present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a
gun.
Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this,
please?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that
Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew,"
and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I
didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check
on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is
a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?
Mr. JENNER. Quaker.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that
you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me
to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's
part.
Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the
previous evening; is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember--this is overlapping two
occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the
statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the
name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956.
Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his
physical characteristics first?
Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud
in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes.
Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Expansive type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I
met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.
Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married,
twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce
was pending.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that
general area, who is now his wife.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember----
Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to
spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was
the way she was called in the Russian society.
Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know
George.
Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it
this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.
Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in
Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet
again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories,
all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him
and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very
small--actually was just a regular residence.
Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you
participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would
be interested?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church.
Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm
talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If
I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward
the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to
describe a man this way----
Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to
ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person
wouldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your
acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to
the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting
at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him,
as you have described?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no, no; I haven't.
Mr. JENNER. Or known of him?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this
was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was
in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long
because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid
this person as much as possible.
Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of
George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I
thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De
Mohrenschildts?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my
mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the
De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that
Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that
remark was made to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation
between my mother-in-law and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present----
Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present.
Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your
presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives.
Mother-in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears
store, except that time.
Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact
between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?
Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone.
Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your
mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with
Marina?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take
your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I
don't want to take your time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little
carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with
your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was
because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and
asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant
at that time--you see the connection?
Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the
way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my
mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my
mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her
because she needs a translator.
Mr. JENNER. You may bring her.
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows
we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for
her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to
answer your questions.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as
far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite
nervous by being by herself and so on.
Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which
I have tried to do with you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be,
because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't
remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated
with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to
separate right now without going back and reading the report.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De
Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with
respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions.
Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to
a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City,
Mexico?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know.
Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will
leave it to them.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to
us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet
representatives and Mikoyan----
Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This,
actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this
mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but
this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend
beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to
organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but
I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active
participants in organizing the church.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this
group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about
which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe----
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We
came in 1955--this already was going for a couple of years.
Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons
interested?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe----
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for
the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.--oh,
gosh, what is her name--Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her
first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in
the telephone book later on.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian
intellectuals?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level
than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are
interested in what?
Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low----
Mr. JENNER. As yours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called
miners, and the Voshinins are the same.
Mr. JENNER. Who else?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's
called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin,
Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them
were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's
case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e
[spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now,
an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s
[spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it
exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the
telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.
Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship
is between her and Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and
Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people
actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial
supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money
because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute,
but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and
through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the
first time.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please
state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free,
in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as
chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony
is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and
evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we
were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life,
his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political
trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can
say of him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you
called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the
Dallas office?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the
assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the
knowledge I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law,
Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion
as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political
leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I
don't want to suggest the conversation to you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what?
Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what
his political leanings were in her opinion?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation,
after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs.
Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to
our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I
stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate.
Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your
mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and
from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone
from this country to Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because
after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow
acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different
sources of him and his political opinions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because
there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in
each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that
they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand
her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them
comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your
heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me
your reaction to that.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was
approached by them or people who tried to help them.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help
them?
Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many
occasions they shouldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested
person.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was
sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he
had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is
strengthened due to the 22d assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on
any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any
direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is,
you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a
realization----
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of
his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and
supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in
my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and
I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were
asked before.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and
that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that
respect?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society,
I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local
Republican Party.
Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of
or has there come to your attention any information or statement
attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or
opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say,
prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his
capacity as President of the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he
was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning
the President or any other name.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can
rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or
early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I
heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be
a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to
my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405,
if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out
in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we
went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White
Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.
Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came
from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee
Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to
his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his
political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring,
avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to
violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so,
are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help
Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I
mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into
political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant,
was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people,
did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one
reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community,
in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think
well of his personality?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try
to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep
Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her
in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.
Mr. JENNER. He was holding back?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation
in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but
only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group
toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not
reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is
what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for
a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many
instances.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance.
Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after
people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own
houses, he was undesirable to those people.
Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your
mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what
happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to
teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students,
and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for
my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian
community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several
subdivisions--first, as to her personality.
Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl,
was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion
was that she is very pleasant to be around.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian
community for truth and veracity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom?
Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a
reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean.
Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family
discussion.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way,
but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union
so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him
living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean
distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable
apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her
on the first-hand information.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with
respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now,
that is a political question.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law----
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second----
Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the
Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United
States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist
Party of the Soviet Union first.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic
Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard
of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist
Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody
considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did
Oswald himself.
Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the
Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political
views and might actively support those views here in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion.
I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political
discussions, I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. She did?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the
Fords?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was
married--he's divorced.
Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be
married.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they
were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the
Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable
impulse on his part?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior?
Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We
objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying
to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her
husband beat her up.
Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report
that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the
community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her,
after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements.
Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in
Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting
money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this
more and more violently.
Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of
which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on
occasions?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for
a couple of weeks or a week.
Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get
this person----
Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had
a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her
home.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did.
Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't
think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or
for 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it?
Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene,
H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.
Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.
Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son?
Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's
correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call
your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your
father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it
appears.
Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's
name are the same?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald,
it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.
Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. What was his first name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil
Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the
class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen
was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.
Mr. JENNER. He is a young man?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army.
Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army?
Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian
in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army.
He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied
Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of
the Russian language already.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this
student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't
that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished
that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of
1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he
and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private
lessons for both of them.
Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not
before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and
Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both
of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described
as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he
didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and
I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen,
and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and
willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring
Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to
you about the Oswalds one night?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit
with us.
Mr. JENNER. Your home?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say,
sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday
or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party
where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his
wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was
present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were
present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was
present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the
conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my
mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and
I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating.
You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those
houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian.
Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and
we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't
speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and
didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with
Oswald on political questions, because he understood.
Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife,
she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the
American occupation of Europe.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't
his original name.
Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory,
spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's
originally his name.
Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here
in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for
quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been
with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few
occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in
the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we
didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you
that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might
be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of
President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the
assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please
state what you have in mind?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union
so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but
knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her
arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet
Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of
my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to
get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be
old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and
here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out
and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I
know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out
of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my
mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's
everything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had
a short talk with you before we began this deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our
off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition,
that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record
discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is
inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is.
Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any
time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to
influence you in any statements you might have made?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and
in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the
moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that
while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards,
I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your
deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov
at this point.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS
The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April
6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise
your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly
swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and
Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Today?
Mr. BELIN. Now.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873).
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Latvia.
Mr. BELIN. May I ask approximately how old you are?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Seventy-four years old.
Mr. BELIN. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to
America?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I
was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia.
I was educated in Russia, in Moscow.
I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian
territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of
the city where I was teaching in Latvia.
Mr. BELIN. Latvia became independent in 1918?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three
Baltic countries around 1939, or so?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1940. In 1913, I got married.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Do you need a very detailed story on her life?
Mr. BELIN. No.
Mrs. GRAVITIS [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils,
and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd
at that time. This was in 1915.
Mr. BELIN. Now it is Leningrad?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Leningrad.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia
from that time on until after--for how long?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my
daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't
let him out.
Mr. BELIN. From 1919 onward, where did you live?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a
teacher in Latvia.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you teach?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to
junior high, and the Russian language.
Mr. BELIN. Did you work for the State or for a private school?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. State school.
Mr. BELIN. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the
Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know the city?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian
border.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. All the time.
Mr. BELIN. Until when?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a
teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as
a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in
Riga, which is the Latvian Capital.
Mr. BELIN. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to
Latvia with you?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't
go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923.
Mr. BELIN. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia
then, and what happened to him?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station
manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And
we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what ever became of him?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my
sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when.
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1944, I went to Germany.
Mr. BELIN. You went with your daughter and son-in-law?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; and two children.
Mr. BELIN. And your two children?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Your two grandchildren?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you stay in Germany?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Bavaria.
Mr. BELIN. In a camp?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and
so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences
until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Four years in--until October of 1949, when we went to
Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started
with "G".
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go in the United States when you got here?
Where have you lived since you have come here?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York City.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived
since then?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 1-1/2 or 2. However, we left New York
February 28, 1952.
Mr. BELIN. And you came to----
Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post.
Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small
towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.
Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with
your daughter and son-in-law?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume
then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have
lived in Texas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other
than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession.
Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr.
Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating
the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the
sidewalks.
I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was
born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual
students.
Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to
Texas, is private tutoring?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring
on and off, because it is not enough students.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs.
Michael Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I
was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't
remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian
instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons
cost?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid?
Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but
I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.
Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50.
Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration.
Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour.
Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or
would this be several people in the class?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had
two, then I received $3.
Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was
taking lessons before I came to that school.
Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School.
This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and
Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.
Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office
and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law
would teach her at home.
Mr. BELIN. At whose home?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per
hour, private lesson.
Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the
Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious.
Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers,
that you know of, in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me?
Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in
Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs.
Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher
was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes.
Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of
the city.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian
teacher?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through
a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question
her any more.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the
grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean?
Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher,
or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political
discussion involved?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs.
Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February,
and then she discontinued taking lessons.
Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years
old, so we say 1961.
Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960.
Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more
Russian language lessons?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit
taking lessons?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs.
Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party,
that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and
his wife is a Russian.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the
phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio,
and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the
English language and nobody could help her.
Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that
time.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald,
her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina
Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two.
Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was
said?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a
severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the
Paine's home.
Mr. BELIN. This would have been when?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This
was this past summer, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from
and where she lived before she came to this country?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in
Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in
Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk,
and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She
lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived
on this street in Leningrad.
Mr. BELIN. After she was married?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got
married?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again?
Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then
together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad
on this street, Ligovka Street.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers
this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor
part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow
brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she
was married, or what her husband did?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a
pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and
mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of
Russia.
Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came
with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you
out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United
States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason
she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to
get out of Russia other than that she had luck?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I
didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who
is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got
out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and
couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the
United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you
mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any
kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of
work is below his dignity.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by
the word Communist?
Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just
what she would call it.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a
person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in
this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said,
"Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in
their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the
characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."
Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly
how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I
think in your investigation it is very important.
She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the
individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word,
which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who
believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement.
Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to
insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of
this word.
Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and
it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist
ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist
Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist
Party.
And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I
translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So
it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth
Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this
third step is eventually for this particular work.
Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to
become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't
talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of
the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for
the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because
this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They
are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic
people.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to
the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which
I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal
experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this,
who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the
Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I
was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.
Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the
Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the
screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the
members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become,
they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the
individual deed.
Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it
is now?
Mr. BELIN. Both.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which
is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are
approximately 5 or more million people members.
Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there
are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or
members of the communistic youth organization.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get
education. You cannot advance in your educational system.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from
the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this
was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you
to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them
as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to
work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free
education or scholarship.
Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this
affect whether or not you get out of the country?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in
Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans
here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to
meet with the Russians any more.
Mr. BELIN. Why not?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel
that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work
here?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However,
mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a
small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and
they didn't have an automobile.
Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer.
And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he
went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or
had done in Russia and where he had gone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so
much. I didn't ask her any more questions.
Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald
have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she
volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people
locally would have.
Mr. BELIN. Why was this?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American.
Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was
it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a
member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee
Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion,
if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to
have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.
Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go
hunting?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting
clubs over there.
Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are
professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party.
Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.
Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to
a hunting club?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to
discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better
because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were
better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better
area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives,
that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.
Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United
States?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she
was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our
President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was
unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States?
Mr. BELIN. Here in the States.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she
did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her
daughter.
Mr. BELIN. And what church?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox.
Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you
had with her that she said about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is
below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very
much. That is my personal interpretation.
Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina
Oswald said about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with
Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times.
Mr. BELIN. Two more?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total.
Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. When was the second one?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember
exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.
Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina
Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina
Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine
about the Oswalds?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a
photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New
Orleans.
Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet
Marina Oswald or her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I
mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring
Marina to our house.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was
in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I
am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some
information on us and notifying their own people.
Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey
Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage
trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.
Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about
whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be
trying to spy, or what have you?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I said to----
Mr. BELIN. To Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be
more careful.
Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine say to that?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American
woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and
very generous.
Mr. BELIN. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the
Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course.
Mr. BELIN. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been
asked to come here?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered,
if you interpret it that way.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey
Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean personal opinion?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald--I did not know her
last name, she always called her Marina and Lee--so Mrs. Paine told
me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why.
She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't
have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back
to the Soviet Union." I said that this isn't true. I was surprised,
and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person
doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in
the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true,
that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her
personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere.
She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and
bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she
is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help,
had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work,
and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very
surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American
didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to
people who don't have money.
Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more
to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should
be noted here, that we should discuss?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Maybe, but I don't remember right now.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he
even hit her, Marina.
Mr. BELIN. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She
said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write
her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would
reprimand his wife."
Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been
different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife,
or was this something different that happened when they came to New
Orleans?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Marina did not tell me.
Mr. BELIN. I mean Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that
might be helpful here?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this
year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had
intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that
she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina
knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew
that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs.
Paine.
Mr. BELIN. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip
somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else.
Mr. BELIN. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon
which to base it?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; this is my personal feeling.
Mr. BELIN. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I would help you more, but I don't have enough
acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I
know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine
or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so
Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her
husband came home after the President was assassinated.
Mr. BELIN. Why did he come home, do you know?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And
she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it
easier on her after that particular time.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here,
Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Thank you; Mr. Belin.
Mr. BELIN. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the
deposition and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down
and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and
let it go directly to Washington?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She trusts you without signing.
Mr. BELIN. So you waive the signing?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY
The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March
31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. GREGORY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley
J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's
Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have
been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the
week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony.
I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the
Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of
Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge
of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained
as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of
Oklahoma; isn't that right?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma?
Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University?
Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student.
Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University?
Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's?
Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live?
Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is
that not correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do
you know?
Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of
the exact year.
Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is
that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been
February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right
around my birthday, which is February the 10th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born?
Mr. GREGORY. 1941.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the
telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared
before the Commission in Washington.
Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I
guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave
before the Commission?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the
only thing he said about the testimony.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of
that event?
Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would
suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house
in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted
with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with
the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian
language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something;
some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to
use Russian.
I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because
I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was
staying at the time.
And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and
I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard.
So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a
visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle
of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald
or Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962,
your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?
Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned?
Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been
at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our
house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first
time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this
dinner which you mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the
summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his
brother's place in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting?
Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's
wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee,
and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the
conversation was at that time?
Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken
in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I
believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And
then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how
they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to
know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all
the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about
the Oswalds' life in Russia?
Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of
discussion about it, but not this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the
Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate
number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you
saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you
met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that
you saw them?
Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and
right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited
in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good
idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite
a big help.
Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June,
a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went
over to their house, my father and I.
We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten
minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from
Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I
think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember
the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from,
say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the
middle of September.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father
gave for the Oswalds?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner?
Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller,
her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr.
Clark. I can't give you their first names.
Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there?
Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a
possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.
Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were
there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe
my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's
husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't
there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more,
if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after
Thanksgiving of 1962.
Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she
and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or
something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the
visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode
the bus over from Dallas.
They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and
brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them
down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went
and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee
or Marina Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around
$35 or $40, something like that.
This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember,
$35, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that
correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the
Oswalds any money?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money?
Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them
gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he
gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any
bills while in your presence?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would
go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping
and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get
groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But
the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much
they spent on food?
Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little
they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat.
He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and
he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he
would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought
very little though.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any
money or pay any bills; is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be,
"Yes; I did not see them"?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or
discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?
Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about
them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for
June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds
together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would
you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or
Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald
went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why
he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?
Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I
never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.
At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it,
he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American
system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and
the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I
ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.
Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was
very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I
don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and
going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the
Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was
sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or
something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and
the second one would be one which I am not sure of.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have
indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from
the Marines?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told
me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school,
from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers
that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information
which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a
discharge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that
you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you
that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and
you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from
Arlington?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet
Union?
Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to
him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember
asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always
read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter
because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to
buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and
phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran
some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he
had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into
another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of
Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and
they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And
then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place
in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup
and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had
to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it
around to face Lenin's new position.
He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in
the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist
Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as
opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out
of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist
Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and
therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought
it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party
were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise
and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a
disgust for the members of the Communist Party.
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my
impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which
the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true
Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be,
in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my
part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that
he worked and what he did?
Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember
his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough
to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand
in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes
and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how
poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet
Union, that he didn't eat very well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet
citizens, or----
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received
more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held
similar jobs?
Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly
received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the
Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of
favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing
shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived
in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave,
because he had no place to go.
If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get
a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in
the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place,
and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the
apartment.
Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said,
"Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite
a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I
am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She
said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know
who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was,
because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later
somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is,"
and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.
I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was
some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another
fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to
correspond with these people over there.
He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was
getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one
was the son of a highly fairly influential person.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel?
Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him
being a general's son or a colonel's son.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you?
Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one
letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal
letter. Maybe I would.
Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name?
Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel,
I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct.
Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one
you just mentioned?
Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining
something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where
it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me
something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal
matters. I can't even remember the contents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at
this point?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember,
that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly
he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has
been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet
Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be
given when he got there.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and
I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was
interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were
quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was,
fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to
go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application
for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign
students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not
accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over
there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him
somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like
this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to
Russia was to enter college or university there?
Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but
that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make
this application.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application
to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you
in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had
received by Russian authorities?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was
touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he
felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about
meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina
worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to
leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where
they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement
for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he
said about that?
Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings?
Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to
why they did let Marina come back.
Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident
where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow
it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her
go. It was more or less an accident.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had
been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or
something that he couldn't readily explain?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted
Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of
reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the
subject of Marina being able to come back with him?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with
all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous
difficulties as a result of this?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that
Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was
put upon her by her friends?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you,
that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done
in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned
as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which
was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And
I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee
would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the
mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to
speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him
an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter,
because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't
remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the
Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American.
It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends
that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not.
When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations
was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they
took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back,
and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get
quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the
Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the
street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's
name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this
to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks.
Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he
looked at things critically over there.
He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is
right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he
saw over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now
your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and
perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it
out?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was
just complaining about things, do you?
Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point
was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone
who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not
that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He
seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot
read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was
a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very
brilliant man and very able leader.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said
about him, Mr. Khrushchev?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that
was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he
would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind,
and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.
Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say
anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because
I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their
living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy
or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as
admiration for Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his
remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him
concerning Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their
apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said,
"He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a
good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about
Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any
adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the
presence of anyone else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made
any remarks about Governor Connally?
Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she
too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President
Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably
indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English
or understand English?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that?
Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be
true. I couldn't answer the question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak
English during the time you knew her?
Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert
Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would
go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.
Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what?
Mr. GREGORY. Ate.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the
corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in
time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What
have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't
learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had
used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to
study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if
she used them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the
extent to which she could understand English?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with
me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you
do," something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong
accent.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a
judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly
spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than
I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to
in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of
grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get
peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say
like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct
him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why
Marina did not learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not
picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home
and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious
attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was
an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't
help her.
I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would
send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct
them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these
lessons started after I had gone away to school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's
ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen
this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit
of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the
grammar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was
particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he
could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical
knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him
do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.
I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in
Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library
and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read
in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the
end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the
grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he
would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was,
but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he
always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book
about Lenin?
Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought
home from the library that you saw in his apartment?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely
interesting. I can't give any titles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of
the study of history?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very
smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was
my opinion of him.
He just said he always had this love of history, and he several
times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to
get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or
something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he
did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted
to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history
and philosophy and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to
TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you?
Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was?
Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a
lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he
was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time
I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we
went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening
classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he
wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the
officials at TCU concerning the night school program?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came
back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the
occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he
referred to the schedule.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive
whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when?
Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either
way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was
encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an
excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not
finish high school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about
his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that
he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he
received from his job at the factory?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have
enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the
factory?
Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of
income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember
the amount that he was paid.
Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was
the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It
seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and
he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of
which he seemed to be very proud.
I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a
closet full of junk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots?
Mr. GREGORY. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them?
Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one
article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet
Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you
have just expressed?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet
Union, but I can't identify the articles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might
have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was
the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return,
and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he
spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow
before leaving the Soviet Union to return?
Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he
was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I
heard him mention being in Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he
encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to
return to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the
difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put
on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out
specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered
with the U.S. authorities in that regard?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about
the U.S. officials concerning his return?
Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned
him money to return?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way
or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation
would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect
this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never
expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that
gave him the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the
Government officials concerning his return?
Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to
the State Department?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions
with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet
Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?
Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an
outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the
two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case,
that she did pay attention to him.
He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly,
could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where
the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or
something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he
helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were
lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them
any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if
he had too many acquaintances.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the
fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help
him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he
evidently gave him quite a bit of help.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was
trying to learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and
refused to pay attention.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in
learning Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian
language while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he
went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just
stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina
helped him quite a bit.
Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared
to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.
In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his
Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and
therefore he gave me the dictionary.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman?
Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing
and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there
or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate
it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you
in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the
Commission. How do you want to handle it?
Mr. GREGORY. Either way.
Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service.
Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing.
Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and
we will eventually return it to you.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you
are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to
Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are
the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.
Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that
available.
Mr. GREGORY. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips
that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to
firearms?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything
that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special
interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used
that terminology?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but
evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met
quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure,
but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that,
too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have
said about that?
Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had
written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they
refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her
difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they
disapproved her decision to come to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that
she had with her relatives?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to
you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion?
Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested
and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to
me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it
was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept
saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."
She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I
will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite
enthusiastic about America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested
to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you
discuss that with her at all?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and
she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into
it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't
want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I
can't answer specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help
her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian
or to improve your Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with
Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the
Soviet Union and return to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was
dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed
to be one of his major things.
And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he
went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the
workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This
might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that
they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe
in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he
believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the
party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things,
that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they
were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because
so-and-so and so-and-so."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised
in the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told
you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East
Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about
that.
Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just
asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and
something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it,
where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or
some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it,
but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet
Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in
Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?
Mr. GREGORY. He did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I
have just stated?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the
United States to Texas?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the
conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you
previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed
to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he
thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about
the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never
had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I
remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them
to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be
interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really
have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.
He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living
in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad
part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment
there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of
wealth and position?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he
ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to
Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission
to become married, or anything of that nature?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite
fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you
about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already
covered?
Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian
military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of
equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from
Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he
knew anything about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you?
Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and
economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this,
because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very
much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than
most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us
as much as you can.
Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the
impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he
would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because
he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview
with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a
question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind
of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't
know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion
about economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him
and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on
their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity
of the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of
the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because
I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get
someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to
get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but
he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just
talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we
went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her
arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad.
You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was
the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to
be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms?
Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do?
Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say?
Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the
medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through
it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut
on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out
again, but it was a real hot moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other
reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?
Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard
reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?
Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this
time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did
you get the black eye.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any reason to think that----
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own
experience?
Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought
maybe it could have happened back there then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your
opinion that he had a bad temper?
Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person
that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We
were very friendly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper,
is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit
him as an agent?
Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed
toward the Soviet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just
didn't enter my mind that he could have been.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered
this question; is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously.
Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all?
Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less
his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was
interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange
program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students
and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was,
how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told
me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never
get there."
He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get
involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought
about everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on
your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the
assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was,
but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say,
fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.
But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him
mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the
assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the
assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion
you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you
knew him in 1962?
Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I
enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very
pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He
had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more
or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone
he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath
him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.
I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they
were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.
And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced
the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations
were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very
smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other
examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about
what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of
education?
Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal
education?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make
any inquiries on that?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished
high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher
education.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the
opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only
picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of
person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into
a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him
doing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the
assassination?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general
judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go
downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would
probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my
general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever
happened. It is just a general judgment.
Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is
it not?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that
caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was
peculiar in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he
never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did
think that about Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation
was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders
in the various countries?
Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement,
and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the
leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I
have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of
Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall
that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles
being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to
reflect on your prior testimony?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the
statement. It was more or less----
Mr. LIEBELER. Philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed
at all?
Mr. GREGORY. No; no such animosity.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack
Ruby?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits,
as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned?
Mr. GREGORY. He never drank in my presence.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any
other women during the time that you knew him?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he was?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or in his possession?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or discuss the subject of firearms?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the
Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent?
Mr. GREGORY. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first
time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he
came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time he had been to TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to
commit suicide?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The same question as to Marina?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know James Martin?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met James Martin at any time?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet him in Oklahoma?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I never met him in Oklahoma.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin?
Mr. GREGORY. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his
brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another
half brother and his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name was Pic, was it not?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination did you learn that there was a
man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager?
Mr. GREGORY. I believe I read the name in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or
any other place?
Mr. GREGORY. Never heard of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be
Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or
anything else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about
Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile?
Mr. GREGORY. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if
we ever went anywhere, I drove.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a
simple statement?
Mr. GREGORY. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he
said, "Yes."
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you ask him that?
Mr. GREGORY. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery
store or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive a car?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about
it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he
rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of
him driving a car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. GREGORY. Very.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at
that time?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television
when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And
later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I
felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in
because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be
a likely person, but I did not think he had done it.
The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service
talked to me and said the evidence looked----
Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and
said it looked like he was the one. And my--I more or less reoriented
my thinking that he was the one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you
remember?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Nielsen?
Mr. GREGORY. I think that was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's
alleged guilt?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he just said something that, I think something came
over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then
he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or
something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't
remember the exact words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was
a member during the time you knew him?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he
belonged?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he
associated?
Mr. GREGORY. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then
the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GREGORY. I think I heard my father mention the name De
Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do not know him personally, however?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. If there is anything that
you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it.
If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I
haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the
record now.
Mr. GREGORY. No; I think you have covered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to
thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman
to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very
much.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE
The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Helen Leslie of 4209 Hanover Street, Fort
Worth, Tex.
Mrs. LESLIE. Not Fort Worth--Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please?
Mrs. LESLIE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about
to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member
of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was
created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission
to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald
Kennedy.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, I know what it is.
Mr. JENNER. And all the circumstances surrounding it.
Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the
commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the
United States, is chairman.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to
you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to
inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that
assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had
any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife,
Marina Oswald.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking
here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to
assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein
and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking
your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us.
Mrs. LESLIE. I will be glad to--as much as I can.
Mr. JENNER. You just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen
to you.
Mrs. LESLIE. I don't think I know very much; actually it is very little.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you appear voluntarily.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. Now, you want to know if I met the man and his wife?
Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can take it by easy steps, if you will let me.
Mrs. Leslie, you live in Dallas?
Mrs. LESLIE. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I
was born, how I came here?
Mr. JENNER. All right, do that, will you?
Mrs. LESLIE. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This
year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years
ago.
Mr. JENNER. 2 years ago?
Mrs. LESLIE. In 1960--it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband
died in 1947, whom I married--I married in 1923, so I am a widow about
17 years.
Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but
my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife,
asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live
together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I
settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and
where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret--there was not a real
Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which
certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a
Russian church on Newton Street.
Mr. JENNER. On what street?
Mrs. LESLIE. On Newton Street.
Mr. JENNER. Is that St. Nicholas?
Mrs. LESLIE. No, St. Seraphim.
Mr. JENNER. The sermon is preached in English, is it not, at St.
Seraphim?
Mrs. LESLIE. In English--Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way,
Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came
there to christen the daughter June, I heard.
Now, I was introduced to a few Russian people here.
Mr. JENNER. When you came here?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and
she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She
is a ballerina--a dancer. She met here many people--mostly connected
with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's
Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs.
Ford.
Mr. JENNER. To Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mrs. LESLIE. Declan Ford and then to the Mellers.
Mr. JENNER. The Mellers, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some
Russians in Fort Worth--those Fort Worth Russians--the Clarks.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark--Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs. LESLIE. Those are all the Russians which I knew here.
Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in
1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there
was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am
interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in
Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them
and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet
Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother
since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but
I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them,
because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George
Bouhe's apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the
12th of June 1962.
Mrs. LESLIE. 1962--so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which
year it was--it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him--I
just have seen them once.
Mr. JENNER. This was a meeting at George Bouhe's house?
Mrs. LESLIE. At George Bouhe's house--where he lives--I could be wrong.
Mr. JENNER. Was it during the daytime or the evening?
Mrs. LESLIE. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't
know exactly--I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some
entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this
couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Who was there in addition to yourself and Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. LESLIE. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for
dinner, so I presume it was something--3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we
were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place
for dinner.
Mr. JENNER. And who was present on that occasion?
Mrs. LESLIE. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I
tell you--when I was introduced to Oswald--I didn't catch his name, his
last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't
impress me very much.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--he didn't impress me, you know, but the only
thing--the only one thing impressed me--he was talking quite fluently
Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in
very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there,
but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian
language, but sometimes he was--he didn't use grammar things or
something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some
mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina?
Mrs. LESLIE. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying--they
have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a
pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I
think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy
and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will
tell you--this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to
help everybody he can. So, he was born also in--Petrograd, before the
Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard
she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this
couple. He wanted to help them.
Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and
she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard
even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of
Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now--so many new
words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice
Russian language and that's all I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak good grammatically?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a
different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because
she knew all terms, the Latin terms--something that not many people
know, because she was educated in this field.
Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby,
you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby
it was. It wasn't the second baby then.
Then, I never met them--sometimes I was getting calls--how was this
Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work
for him--he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too
little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them
financially.
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe solicited money from you and others?
Mrs. LESLIE. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a
quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or
anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money
and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they
are and so on.
Mr. JENNER. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that
you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing
extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a
man like George Bouhe?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet
with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is
a temperate man, a little bit--he can tell you--insult you sometimes
without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years,
so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of
the finest things which happens.
When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of
my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian
costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in
an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he
wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted
to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was
pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then--she was very
pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took
her photograph in the costume and when I was 5 years old, I sold this
photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I
forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston
with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting
Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and
it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a
portrait of my mother.
It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years
out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was
a very rare case.
I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find
it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years
finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe,
I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition,
maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more.
He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't
have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he
says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for
$60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care
only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20."
And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this
book--or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?"
There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how
can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book
and I will show you. I cannot tell you."
And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks
and so forth?'
I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you
call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I
have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I
found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my
job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank
him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can
show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know
you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which
one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not
interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force
myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you
know, so since that--it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of
it.
After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at
Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He
says he doesn't want me to know him--he doesn't want to know me, so I
do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and
that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since--since this case, but
I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology.
I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and
when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know,
duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's
the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with
Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say,
"Hello, how are you," and that's all.
Mr. JENNER. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act
toward each other on the occasion when you saw them?
Mrs. LESLIE. I will tell you something--I don't know if Bouhe told you
or others too. When she was out at a place--she had a black eye and she
has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a
question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I
hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a
light, the door was open and I hit it--the kitchen door."
And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he
was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was
sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was
Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a
Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife--this
is not proper--to beat his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, we don't approve of that in America.
Mrs. LESLIE. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and
like Fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out
in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little
blanket--she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she
said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English
and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do
and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house
and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I
don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took
her--I think, you know, that she was staying with them.
I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I
lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I
didn't see her until when she was on television.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to ask you about a certain George De
Mohrenschildt.
Mrs. LESLIE. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my
daughter's and he is in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know that.
Mrs. LESLIE. And he was patronizing Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of fellow was George De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. LESLIE. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have
pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting
her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter--Nattialie Krassooska
of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima
ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going
together, swimming together, and I don't know where--that's why she
invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when
I came, he already married this Jeanne.
Mr. JENNER. Jeanne?
Mrs. LESLIE. She's Russian--I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or
Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name
is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know,
a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South
America or somewhere, you know, they walked.
Mr. JENNER. From the Mexican border down to Panama?
Mrs. LESLIE. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were
the arrangements he made--with some Life Magazine, or something,
but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make
geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens
like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very
much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she
sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a
letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife,
Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he
was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then,
occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then
once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they
were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will
tell you something--that what many people were afraid of, his wife is
atheist. She doesn't believe in God.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my
daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing
in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist
too, you know, so I don't know--maybe he always is under the influence
of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't
know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says,
"Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about
him.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and
his attitude?
Mrs. LESLIE. You know, after this trip, they are very--they don't like
to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks,
dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a
little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect
them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was
saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or
I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and
there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't know what kind of
people--whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I
cannot tell.
I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so
that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts.
Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't
either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with--and I
don't know who knows them best, but I think--whether the Mellers do or
not--I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in
these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they
was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew
he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably
she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you
know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is
so hard to leave from there--his wife and child, why they let them out.
Mr. DAVIS. Did this occur to you?
Mrs. LESLIE. It has occurred to everybody--how--he was so poor and
Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time
he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans--he was
taking these trips--who supplied him with money--nobody knows. You
know, that's a thought everybody was thinking--how he went there and
how--it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions.
Mr. JENNER. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers
and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of
good heartedness?
Mrs. LESLIE. I hope so--I think so--I hope so. Mostly, you know, I
cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I
don't know--he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. On the Baltic Sea?
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural
that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and
not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their
place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I
know--they was meeting them--somebody told that the FBI was looking for
De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I
think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this
is over. Probably he will come back into the United States.
Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes--I wanted to tell this--so, when this
naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy
was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was
Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot
and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume
that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald,
and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her;
you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know
his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything,
and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met
them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a
friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did
you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his
name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name."
They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And
they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said,
"Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more
closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize
him, because when you are not expecting--I didn't know his last name
and such a common face he has, and such a--you couldn't remember his
face very closely--it is just one person you can recognize him, and
that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so
bad; I shaked his hand--I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked
his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the
President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to
touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I
am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen her since the occasion you met her?
Mrs. LESLIE. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford.
It was correct that they was helping her because she received so much
from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and
they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything
and they was investing it or something--I don't know the situation, but
she is now--they asked her--as Russian--to watch over her. I don't know
what she does--I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to
my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to--I don't know,
but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to--I don't
know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in,
I know, at an inconvenience to you.
Mrs. LESLIE. But if I can help with something I want to.
Mr. JENNER. You were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much.
Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it,
you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer
to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; you will mail it to me?
Mr. JENNER. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S.
attorney's office, he will have it.
Mrs. LESLIE. I have to write his name.
Mr. JENNER. And he will know when your transcript is ready.
Mrs. LESLIE. He will call me on the telephone?
Mr. JENNER. You had better call him because there are so many
witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and
read it and sign it.
Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told
it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide
anything.
Mr. DAVIS. That's the name and the phone number.
Mrs. LESLIE. Sir, I will call him and ask him--what I have to ask--is
my deposition ready?
Mr. JENNER. If the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read?
Mrs. LESLIE. To read--all right; thank you.
Mr. JENNER. You give him your name and he will tell you.
Mr. DAVIS. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may
be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant
attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be
the one you could reach and she would be at this same number.
Mrs. LESLIE. All right; I will do it.
Mr. DAVIS. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank
you so much, Mrs. Leslie.
Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT
The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m., on
April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition
you are about to give?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received
letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have
you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one.
Mr. JENNER. One joint letter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint
Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of
the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon
Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and
appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and
obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by
the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and
by deposition.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the
Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to
the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.
In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr.
Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and
the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John
F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that
assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the
Commission relevant to its obligations.
In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for
some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of
deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of
their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina
Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of
our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt
befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with
them.
As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people
who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the
facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that
are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.
I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may
not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of
course, than any one witness would know.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me
quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President
Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren
committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me,
being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international
assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract
may be broken.
So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he
said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.
Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now,
this is unofficial--one of the ministers informed me of that--in which
this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I
am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a
letter he received from someone.
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that?
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure
it could not have been anything official.
I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the
Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter
and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it,
personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary
admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do
anything like that, you know.
Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be
somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication
from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non
grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or
that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non
grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there
in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is
important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000,
and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with
it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first
came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there.
It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the
country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally
got that contract about in March last year.
So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also
to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me
to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant,
just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this
respect, because it is really very important to me.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American
geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I
have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is
not a fly-by-night project, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about
it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning.
You were born in 1911?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April
4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the
calendar.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in
calendar.
Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here.
Mr. JENNER. And what date by----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th.
Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr.
Mr. JENNER. What country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland
rather than Russia. Would you explain this?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never
lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is
that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian
descent.
Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may
I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your
grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and
received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time,
or maybe your family.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name
is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the
spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a
Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a
typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in
any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States,
you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they
probably changed it to S-c-h-i-l-d-t. And it can also be written in
Russian, at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the
Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk
Province.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected
representative of the landowners to the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Of what country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and
spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes
Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe
five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well.
Mr. JENNER. Spanish?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish.
Mr. JENNER. French?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they
speak French there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French.
Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was----
Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying
to make this informal. I want you to relax.
May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned,
I will tend to inquire into these things.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what
I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am,
international business----
Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation
have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because
when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of
anything. I am very outspoken.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that you are, from witnesses I have
interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those
reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my
business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be
the circumstances of death.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an
important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he
had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was----
Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean
nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the
persecution of Jews.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some
elements of oppression of the Czarist government.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional
government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member
of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.
Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who
is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I
should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as
you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And
it will be printed as part of the report.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the
future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what
I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I
vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the
Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an
independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility
position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older
brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't
remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there--in
the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.
Mr. JENNER. And that came when?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon?
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were
returned to Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow,
one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters
of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so
sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St.
Petersburg and Moscow?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me
such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very
difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a
story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a
memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed
it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to
change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little
bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many
years, because I did write it down.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was
governor--not governor, but marshal of nobility of.
Mr. JENNER. What province is that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where
Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his
experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very
well.
Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the
Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad,
and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.
Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I
don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied
by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I
don't remember which one---there was famine there. So we escaped.
Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the
time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my
brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course.
He is about 12 years older than you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11.
Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly,
more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house,
or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived
there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists
eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make
it short.
Mr. JENNER. Please--that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But
I want times. About when was your father put in jail?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime.
Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the
first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember
very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first
time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were
fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released
my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we
always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who
always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists,
because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway
Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to
escape from Soviet Russia.
The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland
again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated
and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide
whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father
decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression
that they have changed.
Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have
become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some
kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember
which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because
he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what
was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one,
also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of
the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this
appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture--I don't remember
what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain
number of months--although there was a famine there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then
one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show
you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing
museums in churches. And my father objected to that.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by
principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected
to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too
much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started
criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more
distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia.
And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.
Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution.
This was a revolutionary period?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living
somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He
is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life
imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far
as I remember the name of it.
And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever
they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government
do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was,
"Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence--just
because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against
him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very
sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped
previously----
Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't
remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised
my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick,
and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the
position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was
not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be
sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that
he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of
times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved,
and he was able to be sent to Siberia.
And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is
where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped
him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border,
in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.
Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno.
Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died
from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had
this typhoid fever.
Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And this was what year?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von
Mohrenschildt at this particular time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French
orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like
the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we
used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States,
interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite
some time, and died here----
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give
his full name.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt
was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in
Washington?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist
Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married
McAdoo's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post.
Is she still alive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced.
She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he
died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But
supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of
the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of
Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his
perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no.
Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to
many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in
the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you
perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that
of record.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons,
in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to
use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and
your brother Dimitri?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium,
which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high
school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that
is where our home was.
Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back
our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.
Mr. JENNER. In Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist
Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through
the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this
estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the
border.
Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among
themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe
5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take
it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to
sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the
peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.
Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate,
probably jointly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call
the gymnasium, in 1929.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years sf age?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father
during this period?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to--I did not like the country
very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly
feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like
home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission
to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission
because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the
Polish Army.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the
cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it
was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility
displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it
because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible
for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a
reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the
same position or division in the Polish Army?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people
there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German
aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some
exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated,
not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training,
and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform,
you have to have your own horse.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land
from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about
my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then
became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was
always--always liked to teach.
Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his
profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience
as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a
professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.
Mr. JENNER. That is the high school?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the
immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number
of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or
1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different
school.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in
which he was teaching?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's--not
supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland,
by the way--did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university
in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee
school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish
school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.
Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you
have a command?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important,
because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted
schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who
graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military
service?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate
officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned
officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military
academy.
Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be
commissioned a second lieutenant?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely
a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a
commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives
you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and
pursue that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was
free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur
de Commerce a Anvers.
Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher
commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of
higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you,
from time to time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go
with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that
twice. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very
hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what
it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a
candidate officer.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the
contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get
it on the record here--your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you,
he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he
was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start
very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you
would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial
Navy, became a midshipman.
Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol,
which is the headquarters there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.
Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as
March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at
Dartmouth and Yale.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a
midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from
Annapolis here.
Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in
the navy, all the time--even when you are 12 years old, you are a
member of the navy. It is not like here.
Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period
of fighting.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist
groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in
a town called Smolensk.
Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the
time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in
a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at
liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.
My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they
told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say
one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.
Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him
against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist
prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners
of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my
father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic
bishop in Poland.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my
brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined
us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the
United States.
Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on
the 20th of August 1920.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us.
Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate
year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just
before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join
the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was
appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But
we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still
in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He
had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval
academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly
better than high school here.
Mr. JENNER. Junior college?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher
commercial studies in Antwerp?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree,
probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there.
You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in
maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you received----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher
learning in Europe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon.
Mr. JENNER. And you received a----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and
commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration.
It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a
specialization in maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master
of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's
degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No; you entered----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years.
Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was that degree?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of
the United States on Latin America.
Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in
Latin America?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are
about----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938.
Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now,----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me
from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was
studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.
Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady
by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with
Edward Hooker, were you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she
not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some
place. She lives between New York and Paris.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during
this period?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were
pursuing your studies at two universities?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a
girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski
clothes, and that sort of thing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through
Europe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000,
from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an
excellent saleswoman.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation
in the estate you had?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me
to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand
dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but
at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I
really don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much
as $10,000.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this
business, Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend,
decided to come to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced
me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came
to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a
mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us,
between my ex-girl friend and myself.
Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938.
Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain
yourself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought
some money with me--something like $10,000, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately?
Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully,
if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started
selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some
materials for Shumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 750?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the
summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.
Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also
her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a
divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends.
We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little
girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also
very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.
Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we
still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally
correspond.
Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials
in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my
blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which
is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and
confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company.
I arrived in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there--because that skips
some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that?
Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination.
I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an
insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that
examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which
was--this is about 1941.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for
Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939.
Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and
wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.
Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what
actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a
very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret
Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in
Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.
I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's
aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New
Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans,
but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I
applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil
Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through
mutual acquaintances.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.
Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning
machinery.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well
paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at
the time.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for
the record.
You are 6'1", are you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to
ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I
went to Arizona.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do
is get your personality into the record, because many people have
described your personality.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably.
Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised
the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would
be surprised.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.
Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to
get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble
Oil Co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the
Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I
know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to
play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to
get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason
I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember
what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is
after my experience with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you
call it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.
Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months.
Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery
in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was
badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And,
frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself.
I do not remember. Maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. But
I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the
company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the
oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and
education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me
the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean--drill
wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well.
Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so
early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of
business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."
Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could
do it without capital.
Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did
you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic
dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried
insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this
insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's,
Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of
money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it
was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then--yes, then comes the
draft time in the U.S. Army.
Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft,
and they found I have high blood pressure.
Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you.
Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in
1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish
Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I
did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas
experience with the Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was
just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was
there--I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe
it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.
And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I
never arrived in Poland.
I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late
to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably
wouldn't be alive today.
Mr. JENNER. You have some----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say,
I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it
is not my intention.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You
are calling on your own recollection.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call
it, tenuous connection with some movie business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went
into.
Mr. JENNER. This was 1941?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron
Maydell.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person.
Mr. JENNER. In what sense?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him
pro-Nazi.
Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a
German spy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer
in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything
through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back
to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White
Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had
been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and
so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him.
And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary
movies.
Mr. JENNER. Documentary?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film
Facts Incorporated.
Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the
Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over
the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection,
because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite
a number of people here. I remember most of them--by Grace, who is
president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we
could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This
is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made
in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by
Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell
had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for
the benefit of the Polish refugees.
Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small
amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually
a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make
some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.
So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to
be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it
together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very
moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success.
I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or
something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.
The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think
they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in
the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their
own purpose.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will
Never Die." It was an assembly job.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music
together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did
not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York
to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it
all together.
Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great
grandfather.
Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania,
later went to Russia, entered the oil business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that.
Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family
some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the
Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron
Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in
it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name
of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went
back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on
his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and
inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the
American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that,
being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you
call it--a descendant----
Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a
member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about
that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the
lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in
Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. JENNER. On a commission?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and
Company.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French
intelligence in the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in
1941.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in
pro-German activity, and----
Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you
see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that
it was French intelligence.
Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and
tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for
the French interests.
Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the
United States were not at war yet at the time.
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system
whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil
by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some
contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we
met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose
names now I have forgotten.
Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think
it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.
Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and
daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.
Mr. JENNER. Had you----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States
got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they
could not buy oil here anyhow.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000--I thought it was $10,000,
frankly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom?
Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs.
Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your
recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr.
Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me?
Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come
back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical
doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York.
Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in
Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.
Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy
Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls,
the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people
accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people,
you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--Lilia
Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was
a divorcee.
Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a
husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.
Mr. JENNER. Guasco?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well,
anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell
in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United
States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my
experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond
comprehension.
Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't
have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could
laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend
following false trails.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are
following them.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they
followed.
But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for
awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from
Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach.
On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by
some characters.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach
enjoying the sunshine.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did?
Mr. JENNER. Did you make--take some photographs when you were in
Aransas Pass?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other.
Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas
Pass?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way,
I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the
coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the
Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?
Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one
to tell me about that.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have,
which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors,
and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down
at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an
outing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay
of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was
then at war.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military
installations around Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with
this lady friend of yours?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of
the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are
a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is
my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I
thought they were from some comedy actors.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have
the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed
me all the way from New York--all the way from New York.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched
your car?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing,
except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.
Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady,
very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to
the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't
forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That
I do not recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint
officially.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially.
Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was
stolen.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they
expelled me from Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a
statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico
City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except
painting and going around with Lilia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some
money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and
the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that
outfit, because it was going to--the stock was going to go up, which I
did. I made some nice money out of that investment.
Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9
months with this lady?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on
Avenue De--the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name.
Paseo de la reforma.
Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some
difficulty in Mexico, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army.
Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away
from me. We were going to get married.
Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think
by the time she got to Mexico--she already got a Mexican divorce. I am
sure she did. She was already free.
Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question
about whether it was good in the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she
was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We
thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and
had me thrown out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some
accusation?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really?
Mr. JENNER. I am asking you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non
grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as
I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why
am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done
anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back
to the States.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some
Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of
those Mexicans who tried to help me.
Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your attorney?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a
good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to
leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of
Mexico."
Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other
friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike.
And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You
could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there
at the time was a young MacArthur boy.
Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright.
He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips
together. The son of John MacArthur.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By train?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I
don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a
chair car. But, believe me, they are very often----
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started
to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that.
Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think.
Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest
in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and
then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then?
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became
your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the
daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an
Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother
and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was
the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an
American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I
fell in love with each other and got married.
Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young.
Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York.
Mr. JENNER. In New York City?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City.
Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later.
Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born.
Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce
took place--well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never
married her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to
marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back
to Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in
Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She had two sons?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorothy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the
16th of June 1943?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are
very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some
place.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas
Day, was it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1943?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York
City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed
book?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did
you do some painting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file
of paintings in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.
Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were
original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have
some.
Mr. JENNER. They are water colors?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military
installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican
types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make
a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old
Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went
together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple
of days with no roads, and finally one evening----
Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time.
Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the
middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we
walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We
left the car right there.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him
again; and I hope to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still
interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various
directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and
study geology and petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice
Institute, and University of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in
that neighborhood?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you
not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see--bohemian and trying to make a
buck, as you might call it.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I
actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did
not have--which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself,
as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete
mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did.
It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are
very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well.
And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances,
and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved.
And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided
to go----
Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that
a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have
the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept
on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was
wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone
in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he
was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice--of all my
friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try
to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the
basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote
some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what
happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who
are very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas----
Mr. JENNER. 1944.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan.
Mr. JENNER. You entered----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of
Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum
geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort
and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum
geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.
Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my
studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in
American schools.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you
serve as an instructor----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In French.
Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some
additional money.
Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of
Texas--all of your studies?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the
University of Texas, did you enter into business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the
Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer.
Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But
eventually fought with the vice president.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with
the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual
agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president,
and a close friend, that I should resign and also----
Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back
to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I
would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you
see.
It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated
in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in
Venezuela?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish
passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.
Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed
a very short time, and went to Texas again.
Mr. JENNER. What town?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to
be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying
to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States.
And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the
chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is
he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak.
Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two
of you assisting the chairman?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I
was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group
of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones
actually working for the committee. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting
organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in
Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky
Mountains. It still is.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not
in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But
he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the
Standard Oil of California.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from
California who sold oil well pumps.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the
various oil companies?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field,
is that correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering
data for the entire field?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to
various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body
in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each
well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was
our main job, you know.
Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in
that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut
down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond
drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became
very, very successful.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3-1/2
years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did
you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very
pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness
of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild.
But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to
Colorado--without being married.
Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.
But I didn't know him.
Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful
girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we
fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine
an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the
record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a
wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to
Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time.
She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.
And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last
boomtown in America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States.
We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud.
It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to
Aspen, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little
cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends.
But then I became chairman.
Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant
president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the
president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time. I would say--I didn't
take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.
But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.
Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field.
Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the
weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my
time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we
decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee.
They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to
break it up, didn't you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over
at Aspen, and not being----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly.
Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it
I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got
together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George,
we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the
Engineering Committee."
I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.
Mr. JENNER. And this was about when?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are
interested in my character--is that it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating
oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it
was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United
States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.
Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the
end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the
statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I
don't think I ever had any complaint against me.
Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field
was being developed.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a
statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen,
and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion,
and your employers questioned it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example,
attitude with respect to keeping expenses?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small
there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned
me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But
I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget,
more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did
you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. The date is not clear to me.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this may refresh your recollection.
Had you become an American citizen in the meantime?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that on the 11th of July 1949 at Denver?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Denver, Colo.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your employment with the Rangely Oil Field Committee
terminated after you became a citizen, did it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection--it occurred about
6 months later?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When your employment in the Rangely Oil Field Committee
terminated, what did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I realized that I could not remain married
to Phyllis, because she was a girl of--who needed money, who needed a
good way of life, needed luxury--she was used to luxury. And I asked
her to go back to her parents, to New York, and that I will try to make
a success out of--I decided to go on my own as a consultant--that I
should try to make a success out of the consulting business.
But I just should do it by myself, without her being present. And so I
moved to Denver, Colo., gave up that establishment in Aspen, and got
some help from my friends, and with very little money I started my own
consulting firm.
Mr. JENNER. In Denver?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in Denver.
Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, did the--was the marriage to Phyllis
Washington terminated?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; either in the meantime or just right at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. Was that by her suit?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; by my suit.
Mr. JENNER. You filed the suit?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you file that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the court in Denver. She was gone. I returned
in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to New York City?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to see if we could patch up things. We
became very good friends with the other side of her family, the
Wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of
mine. Bill Wasserman is a banker in New York, used to be ambassador
to Australia during the Roosevelt administration, I think--or to New
Zealand.
And, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of
her--because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in Europe, they had
also their own difficulties.
Mr. JENNER. Their own marital difficulties?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they decided we better forget about this
marriage. We remained very fond of each other. But we finally came to
an agreement to have a divorce. And I filed a suit for divorce.
Mr. JENNER. When was that decree entered?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that I do not remember.
Mr. JENNER. When did you get your divorce decree from Phyllis
Washington?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a court in Denver, Colo., but I do not recall
the date.
Mr. JENNER. 1949 or 1950?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something around that.
Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of that marriage?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No children. We were married in Grand Junction,
Colo. And the divorce was entered--the reason was desertion, which was
actually true, because she did not come back to me. She stayed in New
York, or eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an
alcoholic--poor girl.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary
consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil
company in Denver.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his
office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to
start on your own.
But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing
evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this
will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night
I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself,
by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am
just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil
business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing,
which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my ex-nephew,
Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had
visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had
done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.
I said, "Eddie, how about it?"
He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time.
And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch."
Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner
and Beane."
We formed a limited partnership together.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so--1950.
Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 years?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a
pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the
drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.
Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you the field work?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York,
a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver.
Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second
well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver,
because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and
they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first
venture--suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because
Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in
Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your
field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that
correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in
Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we
paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short,
our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally
split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy.
He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to
make millions.
My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and
eventually build up some production.
On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought
the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another
company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a
well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead
of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if
they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual
story.
I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to
find something less risky.
He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was
true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.
Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite
a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was
the center of the small size independent operators at the time.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I
married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.
Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the
next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back
a minute to your father.
You left there about 1931 or 1932?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times.
Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular
reference to World War II?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went
to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to
the United States at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this
was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to
America, and he did not take advantage of it.
Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you
know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too
old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the
German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he
happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into
hiding.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the
Russians invaded Poland?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other
side?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of
the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence
of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and
the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made
an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin
could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to
a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.
Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they they are willing to
go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German
Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of
Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an
enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those
Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the
other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to
Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with
the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life----
Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist----exceedingly
strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the
sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany
and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we
know--some air raid hit that place where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old
castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going
to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the
time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go
and see the place where he was buried.
Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters
through some German friends who stayed there with him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he
had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him
during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before
Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said,
"George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war,
but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free
and nobody is bothering me."
It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some
positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too
clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not
pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we
went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in
1952--because I was not married--we still had the partnership. I was
visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him
I met my next wife, my last wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school
at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That
was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29
years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see.
And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia,
Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and
also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many
years.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end
of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely
Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.
So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and
so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should
marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all
right--obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me.
Butler was my best man at the wedding.
Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler.
There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember
who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of
ushers. So we got married.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested
in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is
interested----
Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her
with that nickname--Didi.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her
graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.
Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to
Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to
live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to
take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident
physician----
Mr. JENNER. In what hospital?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Baylor University?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in
Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor
Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very
often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my
partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity
between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.
Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion.
And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from
such a prominent family.
Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me,
"George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts."
She had had nervous breakdowns.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is
very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous
breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is
interesting for you, all those details.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she
came to Dallas with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an
apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm
outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei,
and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very
difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.
Mr. JENNER. When were those children born?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference--in 1953 and 1954.
Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose,
you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social
problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife.
He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such
unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership
and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it
out and divided the proceeds.
Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the
oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was
staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to
Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity,
according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much
better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center
of things than just in a small hick town, you see.
Mr. JENNER. You----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking
this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from
Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by
the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we
formed a partnership just about the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's
uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle--much younger than his--than her mother,
but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed
friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to
form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with
the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do
the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the
business in Philadelphia.
We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling
venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some
time.
Mr. JENNER. What field?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field
belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in
the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.
But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide
any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small
things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together.
Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced----
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were
divorced?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We
were married for 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our
children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic
nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.
Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for
Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary
chairman.
Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this
foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did,
because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It
started with very little--we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now
it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last
year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public
subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and
we got $25,000.
Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960.
By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever
disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that
we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic
affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a
marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children.
She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little
girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is
in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia,
she is a trustee of Temple University.
But her husband, Dr. Denton----
Mr. JENNER. She remarried?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried.
Mr. JENNER. What is his full name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated
our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of
pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of
Pennsylvania.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some
litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with
respect to some trust?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Established for whom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had
to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support
of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund.
She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children,
because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to
accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side
to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far
away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered
constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the
children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a
long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my
ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son.
Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr.
Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the
children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was
a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between
my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in
regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.
Mr. JENNER. No--I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives
in Philadelphia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more
or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She
was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national
foundation.
She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked
to resign, or resigned herself--I don't know for sure--the other
trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to
resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends
another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think
which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the
administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she
is running this foundation as an administrator.
Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of
difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live
with me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. The daughter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living
in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just
the opposite--that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of
the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation
last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of
various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier
with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a
tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we
went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the
middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as
they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the
condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I
get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is
also under psychiatric treatment.
Mr. JENNER. Who is?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric
treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for
the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters,
because they are healthy, and she is not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some
children born of her present marriage?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife
filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. She commenced it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get
a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The
lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell
our house and settle our accounts.
Mr. JENNER. Property?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair
for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story
about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did
you remain in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting
work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the
foreign end of this business.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In
1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals
connected with Sinclair Oil Company.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We
were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.
Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking
more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr.
Sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for
him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some
oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign
jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in
connection with those.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign
work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion
of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was
in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France--I may have forgotten
with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some
work right there in Dallas--examined the geological work and made
suggestions.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually----
Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba--I traveled in Cuba before Castro,
during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed
the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to
promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost
owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the
Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over,
and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his
office--that type of job that I had from time to time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana----
Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.
Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you
were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and
development for what group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan
Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co.
in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I
may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all
consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from Texas or from New
York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well
known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to
a job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the
Yugoslav Government.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in
Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia
and help them develop oil resources under the--I don't know--some kind
of government deal. Under this----
Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--George Mitchell.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist.
In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did
pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for
somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found
George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.
Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C.
The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA
paid my salary.
Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere
around February of 1957, wasn't it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8
months, and I returned in October.
Mr. JENNER. 1957?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made--quite a
considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them
went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went
to the Bureau of Mines here.
Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked
me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because
I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I
noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking
me--after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me.
One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well,
George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he
is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."
Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that
correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in
Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia
for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas
firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I.
Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a
couple of weeks.
Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a
divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh
Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this
separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living
at the Stoneleigh Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.
Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you
about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was
Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told
me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry
her. A very charming fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before
you were married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because
we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We
both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we
wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I
remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are
married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it
in the name of----
Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former
husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the
States they used the name of Le Gon.
Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name
is Jeanne, is it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the
Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for
awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We
took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually,
her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter
came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your
daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in
Arizona, because her mother----
Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy
Tilton III. Anyway----
Mr. JENNER. She lives where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson,
Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up
and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her
husband, Mr. Clark.
Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left
her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European
way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my
daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We
call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin,
it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent
practically all her childhood there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there,
as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt
her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.
Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one?
Mr. JENNER. To the adoption?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that
adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived
away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the
daughter.
I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually
both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra
because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person
to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away
from her. We had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a
custody case.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took
Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us.
And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided
that she should be with us.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with
the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my
ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel.
Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a
television producer.
Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom
our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not
married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not
married. I could not offer her a home--although I wanted her to be with
me.
And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."
And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I
contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a
half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.
That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.
Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After you were married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some
time.
And, finally, she eloped from school----
Mr. JENNER. From what school?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of
Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.
Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee
Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody.
Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a
divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information,
is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out
what is happening to the child.
Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs.
Taylor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less,
takes care of the little boy right now.
Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study----
Mr. JENNER. What school is that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the
situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get
occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere
in New York right now.
Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch
with her right now.
The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a
hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as
some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.
Mr. JENNER. How old is she now?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now.
Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then.
While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present
wife's daughter.
What is her name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as
my wife's.
Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor.
My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous
admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name
after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but
that is beside the point.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name----
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to
Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to
pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.
Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana
Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it.
Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton.
Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California,
from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't
know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft
Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of
Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To
make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also
he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.
Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.
Mr. JENNER. What is----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department.
Mr. JENNER. In Alaska?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to
make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and
they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond
of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their
name, and that was by mutual agreement.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband,
Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married,
they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le
Gon?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they
decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed
their name to Le Gon.
I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying
that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known
designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.
Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I
was not particularly----
Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian
background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in
China, and she was born in China and lived there.
Mr. JENNER. Harbin?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She
came to the United States the same year I did.
Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New
York, and didn't know each other--right next door.
Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the
present time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her
husband.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And January 1964?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in
Alaska?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in
Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place--in
both places.
Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children.
Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests?
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more
about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is
of ultra conservative tendencies politically.
Mr. JENNER. Please explain that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100
percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And----
Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether
he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have
Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration
for him.
I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect
votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife,
Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in
April 1956?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date
clearly in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a
drinker?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much.
Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of
all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything,
a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close
to it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many
times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I
have drunk more than I should.
Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at
dates.
But I think it is 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at.
That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair,
that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout
all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and
to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would
review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of
mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we
did it.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted
myself.
At this point, tell me your political philosophies.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I
voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics.
Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat,
because I believe in freedom.
Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom
of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of
criticizing something which I think is not democratic.
Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a
Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if
somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with
fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I
got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics
very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that
subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.
If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his
business.
Mr. JENNER. Have you----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some
good characteristics in communism.
Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that
view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this
country, that there are some good qualities in communism.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your
concept of communism?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from
the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and
works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation
it may be a solution.
Mr. JENNER. A temporary one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes--which eventually, and I
believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in
certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way
of life.
Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I
would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like
business to be free. But----
Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to
persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development,
you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development
communism is not good?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that about it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and
Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which
expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.
It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which
says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich
countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for
ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies--could
exist eventually.
But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the
poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United
States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia,
Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are
producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop
the tools to produce industrial goods.
While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in
the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on.
You see what I mean?
Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti,
which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than
they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?
Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries,
or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So
that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.
Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy
is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual
freedom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my
life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without
it.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in
Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was
attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor
Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example
of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of
democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that
the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the
President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made
an impression on them. A few examples like that.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates
with the Communists?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk
to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people
active politically--they were not big shots.
With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you
can discuss.
Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any
side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in
favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to
communism?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who
does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world
attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean?
A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in
free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me,
"George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are
not for freedom."
Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites
are not for freedom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike
it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left
with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.
For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in
my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe
in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an
international force?"
I said, "No."
He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and
sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have
insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred
against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live.
Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it
yourself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no.
Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection
with the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I
developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to
use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.
Mr. JENNER. What workers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very
inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using
American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who,
among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita,
Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately.
So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote
the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be
a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture,
using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic
countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.
And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility
of forming such a venture.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia
for the International----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. Were you then married?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates.
Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to
Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not,
in the summer?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married
at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can
correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy
with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.
Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I
expressed my point of view pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All right.
John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract
for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav
labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic
countries--especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point.
But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send
Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all
the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And
they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not
use American equipment?
I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that
type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see
the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia
when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And
I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable
in Washington?"
And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."
It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian
venture--form a corporation.
I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in
the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.
I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said,
"George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do
business with those damned Communists."
So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of
that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany
and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.
Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably,
or 1959.
Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman.
The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I
have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and
Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all
over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And
this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they
practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the
stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African
countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is
Ghana.
And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found
out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana,
indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And
eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still
are supposed to have it, this concession.
Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a
philatelist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Explain that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the
philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to
Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De
Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway,
because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I
went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went
as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business
you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr.
Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all
those countries, as far as concessions go.
Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp.
have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political
with a capital P.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with
Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only
affiliation they have with him.
Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects
whatsoever?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have
explained?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business.
Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International
Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had
no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business.
Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool
Corp., that was strictly business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No politics involved?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.
Mr. JENNER. Representing----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I could take what you call the fifth
amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.
Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time
you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you
feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel
uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been
an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government,
except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish
Army--$5 a month.
Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian
Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.
Mr. JENNER. Subject to that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it.
Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign
government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at
any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital
P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or
a government or even a group against a government?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of
any political group.
Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather
colorful life have been your personal views?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests,
with a capital P, on behalf of any group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like
in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the
discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I
say what I think.
Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any
kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in
anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian
venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in
Europe, traveled around Europe.
We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you
came here in May of 1938.
I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you
started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into
Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your
own words, how it came about, and what you did.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it
is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick
MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we
were both young men in Mexico.
And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country
mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and
useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of
the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the
Conquistadors.
You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines,
and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are
all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I
started collecting through the years--I started collecting information
on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.
But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the
time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of
my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all
that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away
from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to
follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central
America, and possibly all the way to South America.
And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical
therapy for your mental problems.
And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me
that that is something we should do.
We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the
ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.
Mr. JENNER. What ranch?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a
friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the
Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little
town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.
There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name
is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half
Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.
By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them,
a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their
house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance
call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close
friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to
take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in
the outdoor life.
And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200
kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very
difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way
to the Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. All the way to where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the
longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole
of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica,
and Panama.
And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our
mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of
the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to
nature for a whole year.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico
City.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that
is interesting. This is completely a different incident.
I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf
of----
Mr. JENNER. Just a minute.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job.
Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year.
Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961.
Mr. JENNER. November, I believe.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other
occasion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes.
Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as
well complete it. Tell us about that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas
Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract
with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words,
this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.
Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in
jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is
the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big
Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs,
asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and
try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in
Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.
Mr. JENNER. You say "we."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me.
Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear
you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960--one or the
other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this
particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you
call it, was this particular----
Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is
the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos
of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with
Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.
By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some
financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican
Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through
my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I
knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any
particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering,
and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the
most interesting jobs I ever had.
And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were
technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the
night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George,
why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"
I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to
meet the character."
He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to
learn something from him.
So I said, "All right, I will go with you."
And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people
at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very
peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern
people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public
with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.
Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she
says, "I better go instead of you."
Mr. JENNER. Your wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the
Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for
the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a
Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.
It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the
Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that
mess.
Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After
that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will
introduce you to Mikoyan."
And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you,
Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because
it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that
security officers without being detected--because she was right there
in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she
says, "I am from Texas."
"What do you mean from Texas?"
She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and
visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."
And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see
you."
So here was the Mikoyan incident.
Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan
incident?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business
reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy
buddy with Mikoyan.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the
Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of
Pigs invasion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything
about it.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it--except I remember we
arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street,
we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have
to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with
us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We
did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.
Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with
us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time.
That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around
the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and
to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white
boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.
And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."
The consulate--we received our mail through the American consulate.
Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not
Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through
the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul
there--could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry
my shotgun there.
He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."
And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the
road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central
American countries?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our
way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.
Mr. JENNER. Samples of what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to
have----
Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff
we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry
150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written.
It is a manuscript I have--600 pages--day for day description of
our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The
publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a
publisher in France, and they may publish it.
Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more
color it might be salable.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by
day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will
make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of
our trip, day by day.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to
record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I
had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever
been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever
visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked
many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here
with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends
in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about
1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting
to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of
our trip.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only
what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to
civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big
cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how
we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They
thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed.
All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top
of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people
that we had money with us--we did carry money with us.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At
the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S.
Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa
Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles
written about our trip in the local papers.
Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central
America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a
desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of
my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.
Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested
at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help
seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war
in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.
But I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to
Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of
territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not
many people can do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired,
and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many
times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived
in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going
to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to
be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry
in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I
discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went
as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost
like his son.
We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died
very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing,
taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian
Government at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then.
Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in
which you are now engaged?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the
first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the
Minister of Finance--that they are interested in my project, which the
project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have
anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working
and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the
contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that
contract.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business.
Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have.
Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups
are you a member?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is
something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not
a member--I am not interested. I am too busy.
Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a group.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them
political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum
Club political?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum
Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be,
because I don't live there any more.
I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think
my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.
I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a
registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.
Purely professional organizations.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you
have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member
of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the
American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even
knew it existed.
You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not
interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics,
except when I want to improve something in our way of life.
Mr. JENNER. In our own way.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing.
But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization,
because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.
Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in
improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on
your part?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to
Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch
very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the
Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in
Washington when I want to have something done about something.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you land?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship
directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.
Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles.
And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to
Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of
Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and
Jim Savage, engineer.
Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment
in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to
live--6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our
trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife
started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all
the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time
I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing
consulting work, in Dallas.
Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those
dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.
So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.
Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head
at the moment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large
manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with
me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip
with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her
profession of designer.
So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she
started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in
Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you
do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you
use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in
Dallas at or along about that time.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife
and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This
is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same
type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia
with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.
Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to
the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.
One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is
Ilya Mamantov.
I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.
He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society
group, because he works for a large company.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people.
Voshinin. What is his first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to
her.
Mr. JENNER. The Clarks?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali.
Mr. JENNER. Gali is of Russian derivation?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper
society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families
better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background,
who is a lawyer, as you know.
Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you
don't pronounce correctly her name.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.
Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in
business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and
years.
Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said
it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.
You are acquainted with her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly.
Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people
forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort
Worth, Irving area.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs.
Thomas Ray.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the
advertising business.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is their history?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is----
Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American.
Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or
brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she
speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of
Russian parentage.
Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think
I know it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the
son.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them.
Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have
named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the
Russian community?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the
Oswalds.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the
Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians.
And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of
Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows
the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the
Russian priest.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox
priest there.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri.
Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek
Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor
of Spanish at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina.
Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or
sects or groups, in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek
Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not
tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely
Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The
one that Father Dimitri is the head of--he is an American and quite a
large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services
are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also.
Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are
segregated into two groups.
Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us
call it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other
group.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does.
Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into
Dallas, through these church groups?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time--I don't know what your
propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when
you were in Dallas, were you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to
the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in,
the old guard church.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I
got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa
now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to
South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.
Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during
the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not
call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized
religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group
there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is
amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a
little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as I said, to
sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church,
if that is the answer.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to
convert people--constantly they push to convert people. But I go
occasionally--on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to
see the group, because I like many of those people.
Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you
have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest
or belief in communism?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Communists are----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to
stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church
is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the
schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe
one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox
denomination.
Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know
for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with
others?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand
for a year to be in the jungle.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say,
Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient
person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in
your social habits.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they
mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people.
Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's
reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their
boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.
Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative
questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.
Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so.
Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a
little more serious-minded?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It certainly has been suggested.
Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't
believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as
well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds,
what kind of a community it was.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it,
and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of
which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw
a good deal of them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It
is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of
Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly
in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25
families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a
very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with
a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along
very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that.
I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than
coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own
words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to
the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962--without involving them
now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided
by classes. You see what I mean?
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes
there.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and
a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a
question of money as a question of good education, and of background.
And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course,
comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an
excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom
we were very close.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is----
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil.
Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had
many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business.
Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people
in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I
know his wife better.
Mr. JENNER. Is his wife also a Russian emigre?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and
Armenian, extraction.
Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him
through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina,
another one who lived there--Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of
the ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really
hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there
are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the
Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the
old palaces from the czarist days.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am
glad that you made such a distinction there.
Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to
believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian
wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some
connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian
wife out of Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might
believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils
that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever
know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most
leftest of them all.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not.
But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country,
because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had
visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland,
as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there
for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there,
and then returned back to the States.
Mr. JENNER. This was after----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us
assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right
now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally
happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the
community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there
was a Russian couple?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally.
Mr. JENNER. Curious?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious
would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first
in Dallas--he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he
is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to
convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.
Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become
acquainted throughout the community?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia,
from the Soviet Union, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They
would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards
they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them
would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is
a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't
there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I
will put it this way: When did you first hear----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time----
Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a
close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there
is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them
already--Max Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read
about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the
exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper,
maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time.
Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American
who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet
Union?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything
about them before.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when
this conversation took place.
Mr. JENNER. When did it take place?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the
summer of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe
said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them--I
don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about
them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent
family--supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet
Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George
Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an
ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted
your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember
that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a
woman she is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was
pretty?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because--but it is
nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.
Mr. JENNER. You have----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better
looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt.
You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But
anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who
were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet
Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women
like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory.
Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit
vague on that.
I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we
met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so
many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure
how I first met them.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who
gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George
Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali
Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.
And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire
poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.
I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend,
Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a
Russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from
Russia.
And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in
Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two
of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door,
and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.
Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5
o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. She answered the door.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we
are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a
little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think
he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her
especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not
particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing
one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby,
horrible surroundings.
Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that
she knew substantially no English?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew
maybe--I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the
store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and
'no'." That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I
remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little
shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very
poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not
paved.
Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how
she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like
that--completely meaningless conversation.
And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand
what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your
husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to
sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry
or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.
And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little
while, Oswald, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before.
Mr. JENNER. And he came in?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in.
Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I
want to see how you are getting along."
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to
Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign
accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable
fluency in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and
education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the
language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than
English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the
first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that
he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in
Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of
Minsk. He got me curious, you know.
But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him
or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was
a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there,
and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see
you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she
needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not
been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.
Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given
to the child?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly
side?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head,
bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an
undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby
looked like Khrushchev.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the
story in your own words.
Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we
drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that
couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also
struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your
first impression.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression
remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had
a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something
charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the
guy--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble--with me he was
very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed,
absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was
just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think
he liked me very much.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said.
Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the
relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple--that they
were not getting along, right away.
Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there.
You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the
couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was
not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving
husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and
so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in
talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with
him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially
when you asked something about him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main
characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in
Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.
Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and
he would do the talking.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when
we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him,
and Marina away from him later--you know that?
Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself,
did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things
develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know,
from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very
often.
Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very
often. Maybe you didn't.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I
do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife
went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that
any more--to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought
her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take
her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw
Marina. Maybe a few days later.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the
Mellers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with
them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived
somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my
daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And
since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older,
but about the same age--I don't remember how it happened, but either I
or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very
vague in my mind, what happened there.
Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George
Bouhe brought Marina to your home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some
dental care?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic.
Mr. JENNER. That is located where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the
Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the
man who founded it.
Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental
care gratis, or almost for nothing.
George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way.
Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either
for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything.
Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time
losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at
the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was
working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.
Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company
was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that
was his version. Maybe he was fired.
Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact?
Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical
care?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina
where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such
injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She
didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She
is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother.
Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And
what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia,
did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.
Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or
the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life
as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers.
That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind--you see what I
mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it
any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not
treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when
she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember
what her father's profession was.
One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government
official, something like that--colonel or something like that. That I
remember she told me.
And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and
graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river,
which I also remember, in Minsk--the River Svisloch, which crosses the
whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and
in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments,
and that is where the foreigners lived.
She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that.
And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met--I
remember they met at some dance--I think he was ill, something like
that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is
something I have a vague recollection of--that she took care of him,
and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she
said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she
desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in
that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream.
It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of
apartments rather than of people.
She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as
things go on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him--I was
trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what
are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary
you get, what amusements you get.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of
$60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost
all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost
nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was
rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous.
Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between
them all the time--always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina
always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the
prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he
liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had
a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people
were interested in him, you see. That very often--he worked in a TV
factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the
United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was
that type of an individual who needed attention.
Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than
he did--as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It
was a livable way of life.
Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there
than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what
happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think
that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was
getting more and more things from people--people like the Clarks, like
ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so
on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.
Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses.
When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded
with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in
Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I
remember. She had a baby carriage.
I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things
like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say you carried her out and took her to the
Mellers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we
met them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did
you do it?
That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George
Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an
introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there.
And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I
don't remember the name of the person who was there--some Texas lady
whom George Bouhe knew.
And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even
spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is
probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to
Mr. Ballen's office--he has a reproduction business, a very large one
in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Reproduction?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service.
When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they
print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large
business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in
Denver, Colorado.
I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember
that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting.
I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee
Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting
fellow."
Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same
time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of
it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and
the baby?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already
moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall
who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary
Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both
drove to Fort Worth.
I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no
car, they have no money--help them to move."
I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for
a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this
address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He
had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember
that.
Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. September of 1962?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time--about September.
A little before that, I think, because in September we started the
campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of
them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that
this campaign started.
Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis,
they had already moved to Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had
moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had
returned back to her husband.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away
from her husband. Tell us how that occurred.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime. George Bouhe became completely
disgusted with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because--I don't know exactly why--because he
liked Marina very much.
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe--he is an elderly man.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To
him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed
help. And he really gave her money. He would give her $30, $40, I
think, all at once.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe
50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in
very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I
gave her even 50 cents.
Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the
house.
Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the
house to eat.
Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away?
Mr. JENNER. And why.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe started telling me that
"George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was
crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."
And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And
Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on.
George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak
Cliff, because I didn't move them--it was my daughter who moved them, I
think.
So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor,
and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee,
"Listen, you cannot do things like this."
Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am
not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a
little later.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you
observed that she had a black eye?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so
forth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it
was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been
beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."
So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you."
And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him."
Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, there has to be something.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know.
I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away
from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it
happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had
them in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do
things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the
few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.
And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This
is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do
that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.
Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's
place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to
take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take
her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous
arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe
I called them. I don't remember exactly.
Anyway, they were ready to receive her.
And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her
dresses and I will break all the baby things."
And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining
to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love
your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some
time, you better behave."
I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police."
I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other
people's affairs, after all.
Well, he said, "I will get even with you."
I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I
said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."
So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things
out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was
small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.
After a little while he helped me to carry the things out. He
completely changed his mind.
Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to
carry things. And we cleaned that house completely.
We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded--everything was taken
out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other
part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days
later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and
said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina
is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous
character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening
Marina on the telephone."
Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George
Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to
know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this
time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know
where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where
Marina is.
Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our
apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the
Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is
to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the
telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was
very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the
fellow to do.
I repeat again--I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And
this is--if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take
my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am
surprised that he didn't do something worse.
I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a
dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else.
Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now--Marina moved
to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her,
and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house--the name you
mentioned here before--a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas
something.
Mr. JENNER. Ray?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall
that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs.
Ford to the house of the Rays.
What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house.
Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had
already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am
not 100 percent sure.
I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little
bit later.
Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were
having?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her?
The difficulties were this: She was--just incompatibility. They were
annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had
many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the
time--"Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why
don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well,
and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the
time. Poor guy was going out of his mind.
Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor
guy, he is doing his best. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I
mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her
physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just
once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather
crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative
strangers, as we were.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on
the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the
discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and
on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She--they
were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that
impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was
Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the
United States.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not
recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me
that--that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him
go to the--back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport.
And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally
took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was
not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that
illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United
States Embassy.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you
that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to
the United States, and had taken some steps to do so?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that.
Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell
you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him
to do so?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time
also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new
fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him.
And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing
again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back
to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear
to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly
interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to
leave. That I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not
interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED
The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on
April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
(Having been previously duly sworn.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then
recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandra,
then Mrs. Gary Taylor.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with
them, but never lived with them, as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection,
Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything
to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had
to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to
Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one
day. But I could not swear to that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another
respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962,
"My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with
me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained
that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in
Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told
me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the
YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression
that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying
that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that
on my daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your
daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe
they did not. I just do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my
mind--completely--after the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot
the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them.
May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we
met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max
Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is
safe for us to help Oswald?"
Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to
Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right
there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved,
you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that
he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was
in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security
at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe
or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You
never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant.
But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were
alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am
not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to
have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on
behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia--G. Walter
Moore. He is a Government man--either FBI or Central Intelligence. A
very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was
some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI
in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government
man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my
stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there.
And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time
to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, because I think
he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to
our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting
person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident
occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Which book?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one--the travelogue. One day we left
for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages,
some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip
and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched,
supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1"
after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages,
No. 3, and so on and so forth.
I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She
said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for
a while.
In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of
a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in
my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took
photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just
could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went
to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us.
Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you
know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you
consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we
haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody
who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I
possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who
it was. And it is still a mystery to me.
So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter
Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My
recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of
them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with
him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so
forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of
your lives, you see. This is one point.
The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in
Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they
represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently,
and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As
I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The
others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor
Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't
you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina
Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for
not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise
that question. But why didn't they want to meet them?
Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did
not want to meet them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew
something about Oswald, of some connection.
Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any
chances.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that.
Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with
them.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were
just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so
secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of
meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience
and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you
have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater
or lesser degree with a great variety of people.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether
Oswald was an agent of anybody?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am
I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you
concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you
why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too
outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were
an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea.
Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very
freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They
explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of
a man.
Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this
reasoning of yours.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was
a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously.
All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was
rather sincere.
Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were
shallow and surface?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under
scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views
on the subject?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly
poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand
even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and
just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to
display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to
impress one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used
them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh
at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had,
for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping
for something.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of
reliability--that is, whether our Government would entrust him with
something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of
imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under
pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would
be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.
Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual,
mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What
government would give him any confidential work? No government would.
Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type.
Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on
that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, unstability--his life is an example of
his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another,
and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that,
tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of
adventure--like some other people would do in the United States, a new
job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome
deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was
discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is,
assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his
jobs.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion
on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth,
and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my
life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for
him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the
Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need
a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea.
Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it
would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a
career in the Marines.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked
it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his
jobs, you see, but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at
them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to
evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as
to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was
reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack
of control of himself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took
his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and
his threats to his wife.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the hell out of her. I
think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to
my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually
precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that?
Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But
now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her,
that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that
is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor
woman.
Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak
Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building.
Mr. JENNER. Mercedes?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes.
Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this
man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation
or situation.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason
that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He
would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and
a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend
people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And
he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is
just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that a moment. It gradually
developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their
curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at
the outset.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest
in him waned?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear.
Mr. JENNER. What was the fear?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual,
like George Bouhe--he was actually physically afraid of him.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid
of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said,
"Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are."
Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built,
athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally,
but George Bouhe was.
Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your
personality as I observe you testifying.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark
naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an
athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him,
and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him.
Mr. JENNER. Who was rude?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his
wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they
invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said,
"Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer
of that type.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too
much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man.
Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively
uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service
record. What was your reaction to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was
Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while.
Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was
in Marina and not in Lee Oswald?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly
important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would
take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other
gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention
might be drawn to him and away from her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not----
Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to
think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember
any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an
egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but
I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any
particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina
would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for
Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you
about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did
you regard that as unusual?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told
Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate,
and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are
going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child
and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it."
We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and
her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English,
and they obviously still have those records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap
phonograph, to play the records.
Mr. JENNER. You gave them records?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records.
Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not----
Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that
my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do.
But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee
would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if
he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people
gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see--she
would take anything from 5¢ up to anything. And the more the better.
But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude.
That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was
not a beggar, not a sponger.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him
developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the
Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a
greater or lesser degree?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part.
It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could
not succeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did
you acquire this feeling?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human
nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You
see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks,
because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house
that the Clarks have--very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so
forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a
refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that,
like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new
convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just
to say so. But you can feel that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him
unintentionally with that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe--my impression
of him is that he is a direct man.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina
away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from
Oswald. That is a fact.
Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away
from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take
Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with
George Bouhe--to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make
another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my
child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am
fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a
future.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina
acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English
because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I
do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember
distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife
learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part."
Mr. JENNER. Very selfish.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in
the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that
is that she would return to Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think
that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the
United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you
never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion.
Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of
1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any
discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the
Russian Embassy to return to Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that.
Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly
unaware of it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that,
never heard of that. What we learned, at that period--that she had her
child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong
objections.
Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina
doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child
christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me
that.
Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to
Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to
make application to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in
that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where
he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know
whether he had a liking or not.
Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like
human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way
of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but
my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice
to the poor--as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost,
penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show
it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean.
Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable
attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to
think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or
not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr.
Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking terms.
Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very
fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a
little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to
something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup--trying to do
something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you
like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he
said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea.
To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I
laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And
it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he
was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point
of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived
when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility.
And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area. I was
interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find
in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of
conversation went on sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things
in which you were interested in the community, the countryside?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic
he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly
with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking.
He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest
which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought
a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about
the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because
these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not
too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after
the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political
meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for
an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a
thing I thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points
that is really hateful in a Communist country--the meetings after
work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the
engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting
after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And
I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks
that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he
hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated.
Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew
there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some
of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United
States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as
a political ideal and his reactions to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist.
I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And
he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that,
because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just
the sound of that word is boring to me.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to
whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and
what he thought Communism was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but
knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was
not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.
Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute
nothing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except
for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary
remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes
to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.
Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he
was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think,
the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he
called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible
than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch
for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had
some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got
him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you
can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we
lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the
Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from
my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met
some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and
that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what
goes on there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his
meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his
youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had
some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of
thing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could
understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in
the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive,
they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to
form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.
Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men
and women who have come from poverty?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald
because he knew it all.
Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly
that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we
did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After
we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the
situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent
their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned.
The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina
afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because
we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which Marina was.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any
place. That was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at
Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another
time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the
whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was
dying of boredom there.
Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was
that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's
Eve.
Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of
days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was
still going strong.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of
days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of
one day and did not end until well into the next day.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was
a very friendly, very good party.
Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no
intimation of that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--on the contrary, they are very hospitable
people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is
why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there,
so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing
that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse--his resentment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question.
She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could
lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade
her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so
bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap
her.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away
from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial
way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he
would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our
presence--when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke
nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked
to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal
person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.
Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very
little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I
remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was
tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy
was always under some kind of pressure.
Mr. JENNER. You have that impression?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure.
Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure.
Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that
party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second
one as well in a moment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs.
Thomas Ray?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as
he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian
origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know,
in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came
from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely
different type of individual--the new blood. They were younger and they
were brought up in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--displaced
persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany,
and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of
them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different
background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's
Day.
Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people.
Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them.
Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man
with grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would
recognize them if I saw them.
Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party
who had a very lavish house?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish
house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the
party.
Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the
party adjourned to the Jackson's house.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only
once--I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I
do not recall him.
Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't
know who she is.
Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her.
Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her.
Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to
some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet
Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to
ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very
nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and
that she left him. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my
wife--having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because
they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored
to death. And she said yes.
Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason
why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came
to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady,
Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which
she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few
glasses.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the
party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their
own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by
bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was
an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl,
Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that
impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that.
She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at
Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some
people in the cotton business to take care of their babies.
Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker.
She eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and
became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas
by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the
party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest
in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started
talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable
because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so
overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told
us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number,
she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or
twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald
is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again.
But----
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something
on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in
which people----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko
incident, because she knows a little bit better.
Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always
happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter
who they are.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members
at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to
them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people
to talk to.
Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there
ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when
they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were
afraid he might be an agent of some kind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little
bit about.
I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the
people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that
told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I
thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists
are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to
talk to foreigners.
We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian
exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there
in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect,
a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she
disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us.
She was scared of us. That is the usual thing.
So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were
scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable.
Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly
affecting his desire to return to the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I
think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him
and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet
Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you
leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not
not find what I was looking for."
Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia.
And that does not exist any place.
Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in
this world.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not
find it any place.
Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false
image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we
knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible
murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been
unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization,
of course, now that you are thinking back.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia,
which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not
give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before
this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of
that nature?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you
see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that
he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that
he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him.
Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with
him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself,
superficial?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know
that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in
New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low
category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type
of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he
mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started
going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself.
That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the
Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by
myself. I started studying it all by myself."
Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did
not understand them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother
reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they
contain.
Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that
is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very
difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that
they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring.
Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had
said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you
overhear any of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed
that notion to you, that he might go back?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to
my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a
better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go
back to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in
Russia"--I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually
better than here. But Marina never said that.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name
of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional
geologist for Continental Oil Co.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the
possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that.
Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was
broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not
permit one of its agents to be that penniless?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I
certainly have not heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was
something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little
trouble in getting Marina out of Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out?
Mr. JENNER. Relatively little.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a
big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them.
But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible
for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the
country. But I have known of other examples of it being done.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the
Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember
anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be
left handed but I could not recall.
Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that.
Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the
other on it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia
with respect to hunting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.
Mr. JENNER. No discussions?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have
weapons when he was in Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in
weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter,
I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested.
I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in
shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any
impression.
Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover
that fully in the record.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. It was the last time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime.
Mr. JENNER. In April?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that
they had.
Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous
place they used to live.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a
rabbit for Oswald's baby."
Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter
Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after,
but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date
exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked
up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the
door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed
you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we
have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know.
We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while
Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which
I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the
window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are
you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All
of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look,
George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed
it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still
standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun,
and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight
on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And
Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So
frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas,
you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like
target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are
you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled
to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General
Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I
knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance
and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face,
you know.
He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.
Mr. JENNER. He became tense?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer
anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a
peculiar face.
Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.
Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not
say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember
after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large
bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us
the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist
on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main
thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that
question before.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for
integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting
him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights
as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very
strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on
that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I
do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends,
you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try
to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such
that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know
what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is
another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe
is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned
from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I
had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly
his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on
that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that
that was one of the reasons.
And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very
sincere.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident,
the Walker incident.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you
opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.
Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire
rifle incident?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could
I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have
said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing
there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just
as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very
distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"
The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning?
I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But
if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that
he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.
Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for
General Walker?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some
conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period
of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your
testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the
Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know
a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.
Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about
the weapon thereafter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation,
the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence
after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not
believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my
part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid.
But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid,
bad sense of humor, she says, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says
that I like to tease people.
Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and
I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is
perfectly all right if somebody teases me.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian
Club?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and
the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back
from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was
a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little
bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas
you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should
do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting
people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And
also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good
eating." And that is how the idea originated.
Mr. JENNER. And you called it what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit
based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided
to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions,
and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that
the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the
dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he
should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I
guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings,
very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was
that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very
important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.
Mr. JENNER. On the subject.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject.
Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or
presented in a provocative fashion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus
there, some very provocative discussions.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home
or restaurant that you supplied the meal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech
that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White
Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against
Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet
General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the
Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he
was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large
group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided
me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I
think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson
who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German
concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov
soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.
Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse?
Mr. JENNER. Did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody?
Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember
that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused
me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He
accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my
opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their
opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see.
Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they
were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was
all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident
because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and
I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that
occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how
to drive and I was quite surprised----
Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to
drive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him
"Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an
automobile?" I remember saying.
Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30,
some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't
know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina
was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling
him.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were
present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so
vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I
might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have
put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas
without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely
isolated where they were living, you see.
Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it.
Mr. JENNER. Because of that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife.
Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect
to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual
person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly
complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time
that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see
we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting,
such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as
we were, see.
Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first
period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we
knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and
I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of
them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about
sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in
them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I
mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him
that disgusted us.
We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more
about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.
Mr. JENNER. Except for this party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came
and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is
Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were
completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out,
and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again
to meet Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that
we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's.
No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one
afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing
them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a
retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife
are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.
Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her
that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring
them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we
brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you
know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away
from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he
immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see,
and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think
he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine
Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So
it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral
left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a
while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.
Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think
Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs.
Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to
my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to
that Christmas party did you enter their home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we
got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a
Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of
celebration but I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he
did or didn't believe in Christmas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not.
Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to
your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw
them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and
12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.
Usually they were together.
Mr. JENNER. She come alone?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his
coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.
Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause
before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and
stayed all day?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or
4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection
of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really
my mind was on something else, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to
the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning,
and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by
bus."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better.
Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing
business, my business you know.
Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and
sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you
see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along?
Goodbye."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that
better than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree,
testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came
for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as
cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my
wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in
charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is
possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the
doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that.
I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.
Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you
weren't around.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife
will remember that, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember
the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because
they were hungry.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that
they were fed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with
respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember
distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the
brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that
it was----
Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and
it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a
little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy
you see. She wouldn't help anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with
anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby
you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you
know, around the house.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I
have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he
didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little
he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was
not discussed you know.
He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he
disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina
disliked the mother.
Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any
exact words, but that is the impression I had.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they
had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met
the mother and had a reaction to her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I
assumed that you knew.
Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will
remember more than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect
to his brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with
his brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that
there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly
inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President
Nixon?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted
to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am
concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that.
Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some
discussions with him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once
I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you
know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very
attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought
that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial
problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed
with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young,
full of energy, full of good ideas."
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He
did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald
hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is
something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very
poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him
sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you
can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it
doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found
that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few
poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor
Connally?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not
familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. That is another subject.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never
discussed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the
assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable
discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the
subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I
was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this
dishonorable discharge or not.
Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know,
and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a
dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to.
Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia
Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party
at his home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met
them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At your home several times?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It could be?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she
was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with
Lee Oswald?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even
this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with
Everett Glover, this couple.
Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't
you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think
he declined that.
Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February;
at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else was there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett
Glover's whose names I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer
Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology
who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Magnolia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory.
Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. He was present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor.
Mr. JENNER. And who else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who
lived right next door to us, to that party.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is her first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox.
Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a
different party, but I have the impression that she was there.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also.
Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I
forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth
Paine.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was
engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in
some sort of classical music singing.
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in
Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent
some time singing in the madrigal.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody
who was present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if
you mention the names I will say yes or no.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.
Mr. JENNER. Alex?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.
Mr. JENNER. That is her husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband.
You see, we showed our movie quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night.
Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't
identify them.
Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned
to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she
would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my
recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the
Oswalds?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not
recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our
trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not
interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.
Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor
Oswald were interested.
Mr. JENNER. Neither one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would
appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people,
not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At
least that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in
Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was
quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many
answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be
asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he
definitely was the center of attention that night.
Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian,
weren't there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine,
and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship
developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward;
you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as
far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw
her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and
attractive person.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald
attending that party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't
remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian
at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.
Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia,
who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate
at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you
think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you
leave before the party was over?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly
have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe,
Everett brought them.
Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have.
Mr. JENNER. It was not your party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to
their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in
particular the former government in Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on,
you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very
intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world,
and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it
was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in
front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to
Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement
or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak
Russian?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an
achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned
the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise
for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well
for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I
understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.
Mr. JENNER. That is all.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing.
Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a
conversational command of the language.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian.
Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina
would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between
them or something?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There
was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially
on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the
time.
But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked
and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not
approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let
her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail
what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante
of Marina's, you see. I was not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a
woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup,
in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to
correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you
see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to
learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you
see.
Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had
confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a
woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know.
She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him.
And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was
fighting also. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time?
I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection,
rather than mine.
There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Without being taken?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we
were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.
I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to
see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware,
somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.
Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a
friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish
extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he
worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex
Kleinlerer. That is the name.
Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I
think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.
Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I
drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't
remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It
was a friendly visit to say how are you.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this
was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which
you took Marina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking
about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken
her to the Mellers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to
the Mellers.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to
why Marina was there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to
Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.
Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that
Marina should leave their place.
Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming
back or something like that, something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory
I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is
history for me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in
your mind also.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs.
Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about.
Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a
broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it.
So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion
with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any
religious feeling?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember
because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious
beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have
some sort of religious belief.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a
straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any
organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly
against religion as far as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any
impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do
not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like
that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty
and freedom of the press?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of
the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to
understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free
speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the
great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in
individual freedoms.
Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages
you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to
appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian
refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't
appreciate it. Not all of them.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life
in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you
see, to discuss politics.
Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as
far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy
lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."
This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very
intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as
you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.
Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to
read that he had written.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time,
but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day
by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through
these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were,
and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for
publication.
Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was
nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was
just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly
written, not particularly well.
Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember
too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.
Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission
Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if
it has the material he showed you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks
familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It
does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he
showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235:
"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you
see. Again another sentence I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does
not look like the same document.
Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document.
Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301.
This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia,"
with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.
I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description
of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop,"
"Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives,"
"Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout
of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective
Farms and Schools, Vacations."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I
remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have
attracted my attention.
Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your
attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part
to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the
Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.
Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar,
starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going
to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is
something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.
Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you
had with him before his life in Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. This whole division?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As
I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this
document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar
to me.
I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication.
You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this
and comrade that, you see?
But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions
of life of a worker.
Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar.
Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed.
Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings.
Mr. JENNER. That he did not like?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like.
Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very----
Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is
the paper he showed you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something.
Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to
me because I was interested in the town itself.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction
of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its
builders."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me
because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some
of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to
this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just
described them. What happened to this street and that street?
He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings,
you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses,
you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same
paper I saw.
Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention
to the city than I paid to something else.
Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that
wasn't as long as that.
Mr. JENNER. It was not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled
compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have
already identified, the first of which is at page 304.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look
familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.
Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page
312. It is a short one.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said
before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only
about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his
life.
Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten.
Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance
through those, please?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen
before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.
Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not
the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not
political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the
TV factory.
Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell
her----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action?
Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I
have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be
closer.
If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or
find out where she is going to be.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED
The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was
that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam
Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen
says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or
January 1963 at your home.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be.
Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife
and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out
socially.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens
to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because
they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.
I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just
refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have
anything to do with them."
Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your
home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or
might be helpful in his obtaining a job.
Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned
yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is,
the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time,
because--I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he
was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still
have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help
them, you see.
I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't
know that.
All this is later, after we had already gone.
So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems
to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds,
when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to
Dallas--that was the time.
Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but
it was some welding outfit.
Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords,
in November?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the
child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the
Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.
And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved
from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she
changed domiciles.
And finally returned to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you
took Marina from the home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As having occurred----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In September.
I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a
recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day--very
sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we
started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were
very busy.
But it might have been in October.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her
home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that.
Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her
husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I
think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at
Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in
succession.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she
made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you
took her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we
took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that
we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to
another, I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods--one period
that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then
another period when she left the home, herself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would
fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second
time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were
busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at
the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and
didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.
October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October,
November, December.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to
whether she was at that February 1963 party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name
MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I
remember her.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls
when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee,
and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like
your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."
And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over
to Anna Meller's house with the baby.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it.
Mr. JENNER. She was there a week.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there
for the second time, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all
the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded.
You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in
Haiti today.
We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load
and unload and carry them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did.
Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is
expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all
this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a
person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I
am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of
the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was.
But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in
the Russian colony.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe
he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian
blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an
internationalist, American.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he
had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not
say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me,
with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on
in his head.
But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be.
But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the
only one who remained our friend."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones----
Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed
themselves.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends,
nothing. We just were too busy to be with them--period.
Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other
people now.
As you related this morning, they began to withdraw.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we
withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them
at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them
again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.
Then we saw them the last time for Easter.
I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that.
What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always
quite hospitable.
Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never
saw anybody else there in the house.
I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by
kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have
talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them
because--well, let me put it this way.
He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice
versa.
But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved
in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of
them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has
never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left
it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.
I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the
impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools
for having left Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that.
Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the
impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked
money, and everything was measured by money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but
you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of
them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making
scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"
But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him.
Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged
to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees
called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas
belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being
interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is
a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine
of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet
Union for them, and all that sort of thing.
It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is
in Germany.
That is about all I know about them.
Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group.
Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on
your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember
during what period--and came quite often to the meetings.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite
a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings,
where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the
Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But
I never noticed anything in particular.
Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that
group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president
of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.
Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group.
Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they
invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't
remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody
in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that.
Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a
theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.
In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he
had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up
a doctrine in his head.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that
Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said
that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the
United States.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds
around to their house?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds,
either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they
didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually
were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular
case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they
didn't want to meet them.
I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see
them.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you
indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the
Soviet system of government?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like
that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful
coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each
other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that.
Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate
atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever
invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a
top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas
invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.
Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9
months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether
it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University
of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled
"Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic
dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall
even what I had written there.
Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based
on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is
what I would write at that time and that age.
Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad
Russian?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite
often.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet
of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King
of Bananas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of
Bananas. At least I called him that.
I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo
Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked
about him recently.
Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your
own judgment of yourself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call
me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.
Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like
to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you
pass the limit it is too much.
Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday
to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your
recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often.
Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite
often--mainly to see my clients there.
Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to
see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the
social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there,
a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else--I don't recall
the name.
Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push
forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise
some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on
that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that
purpose--purely for business.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an
artist?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter.
Mr. JENNER. Christiana?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter
were living in Dallas with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as
an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition
to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Switzerland?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark.
Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that
you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't
have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden,
visiting some distant relatives there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called
true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions?
Mr. JENNER. Arguments?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The
real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with
the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very
strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this
Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I
told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United
States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased
in their opinions.
Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and
without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United
States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them
the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how
joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to
them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them
it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like
me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them,
it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all
that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when
it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small
syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to
them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I
think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to
me from there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time,
did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France,
Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on
geological visits?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that,
and it did not materialize.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at
the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960?
Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your
passport being renewed on March 11?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember.
Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to
Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana.
I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she
remembers the dates.
I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little
boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning
to. But my wife will remember all that.
Mr. JENNER. So we can identify you as far as these papers are
concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white
male, 6'1" tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a
scar on your face?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side,
I think you can see.
Mr. JENNER. Right-hand cheek?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my
childhood. And this one is a new one--I got it in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near
your hairline?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You suffered that in Yugoslavia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head--had a
few stitches taken.
Mr. JENNER. And your----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, I may say--my wife reminded me of it
today--regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast
Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941--of course, which I was not doing,
because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in
Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought
I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also
making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us.
Mr. JENNER. Shot?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shot. And they told me to get away--we were in
a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were
hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea.
So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of
an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation--that
I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I
should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting.
Mr. JENNER. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is
he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he
came to this country in the early twenties.
Mr. JENNER. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in
the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is
located.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale.
Mr. JENNER. Do those facts square with your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember
he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee--they were roommates.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and
was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to
this country.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; before I came back for the first time to
this country.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to
arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but
arranged my permit.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate
that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit
Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his
family, and collecting material for magazine articles.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about the right time when I first saw him
after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in
Poland.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at
Yale, had he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know what year he completed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take some additional----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't
know what year he received his Ph. D.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ph. D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can
get away from teaching.
Mr. JENNER. And he is a Ph. D. and a professor at Dartmouth College?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College.
Mr. JENNER. Hanover, N.H.?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian
Review, a magazine.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't he found that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he founded that magazine.
Mr. JENNER. And what does he teach at Dartmouth?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he is a professor of Russian culture,
Russian civilization, history.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--is this a description of him: He is a white
male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes.
Mr. JENNER. Unlike yours, that are blue?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He is browneyed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he
didn't know that we were in Europe.
Mr. JENNER. Neither knew that the other was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in
the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence.
Mr. JENNER. Does your brother have a mustache?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have
grown it lately.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't
she--Romeyn?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons.
Mr. JENNER. She was born April 17--December 25, 1943. We brought that
out yesterday.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Christmas Day.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone
Fleischer--Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her
stepfather--Walter Washington Stecker.
Mr. JENNER. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted
by Walter Washington?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1958, Dominican Embassy?
Mr. JENNER. The month of April.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think I was invited to--Dominican Embassy.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Washington?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of
concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried
to contact the Dominican Ambassador--purely for business reasons--some
kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the
last--let's say the last 6 months?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in
March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian
Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between
planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right
connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would
stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next
morning.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican
Republic?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there.
Mr. JENNER. When next were you there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes;
we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the
same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night.
Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning,
on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in
1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check
on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau
of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and
then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican
Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And
then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.
Mr. JENNER. On this present trip?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican
Republic?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember
now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody
told me--I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist
in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and
never was able to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt,
that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between
Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought
nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement.
I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.
Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the
President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I
could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him
for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But,
again, it is purely speculation on our part.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I
have to pursue it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no
other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two
together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you
see--especially I remember reading in one of the papers that----
Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign
language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get
Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one
of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife
before the assassination that he was going to get some money.
Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started
coming--arising in my imagination.
Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to
Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in
dismal poverty.
Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you
went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you
exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just
packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from
Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States,
saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost
that card.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in
December of 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a
letter to her.
Mr. JENNER. From where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the
death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since
we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the
misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime
last fall."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and
especially his wife Marina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it
is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President
of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we
still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us
no end of difficulty, from every point of view.
Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the
situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that
is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And,
actually,----
Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
What was wrong with what you did?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were
charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion
he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing
of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair
statement?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I
have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and
I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was
mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and
sickly."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is all correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we
heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their
miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the
character."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him
seriously."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian
refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to
her husband." You have told me about that course of events.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes
occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy
for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains,
and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady
characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions
should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two
sentences.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the
President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely
jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young,
attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and
was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had
nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in
everything he did.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a
way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own
bootstraps?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it
made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he
was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a
mental blackout.
Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have
been taken."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better
precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at
the time to protect the President.
Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very
first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the
assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in
the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and
he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee,
Lee, Lee--and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"
And he said, "I guess that is the name."
Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it
occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the
rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the
Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were
driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy
and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some
association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a
gun there.
But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read
and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas,
and out of contact with events.
The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers.
Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and
naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.
Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from
somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place--he was
getting regular checks.
Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place.
Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me
to make any conclusions.
Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December
12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper
articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original.
Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the
letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have
any of your handwriting on it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed.
Mr. JENNER. Typed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that
letter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti,
this letter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your
sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs.
Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has
two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the
stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a
lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his
judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his
judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my
testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly
because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy.
That is why I have the doubts.
Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the
things you have told me about in this long examination?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any
humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering
anybody else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering
doubts?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been
involved?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information
of anybody else being involved?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No information.
Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what
you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read
foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald
did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was--that
somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the
bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and
all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the
colony of foreigners--Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti,
most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.
Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in
the papers they receive from their homeland?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are
sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that
subject.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that
you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what?
Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the
other.
Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss
was not intended to imply that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on
whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to
say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.
Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report,
which I assume you will.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February
2, 1964?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those
as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the
letter was enclosed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written.
Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us
about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in
1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people
connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.
I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the
northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a
company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the
Cuban situation.
In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of
the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time
then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip----
Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the
Central American countries?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project
from then on.
Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for
Haiti--at the end of May 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti,
did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington.
Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington
preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the
people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were
attempting to interest?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a
Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting
this contract.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 1."
(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"
for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued
in connection with the Haiti venture.
Am I correct about that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by
reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the
right?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent
success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip----
Mr. JENNER. That is a headline?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that?
Mr. JENNER. I would prefer--can you translate that literally?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America
by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general
of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent
success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.
"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant
mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph
Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner,
who was at that time in Europe.
"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard
Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and
the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles
has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The
active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti
has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest
financial companies in New York which does business in the millions
of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the
Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to
the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial
Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer
periods.
"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate
business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start
through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of
construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.
"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will
be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country
will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting
contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president
and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for
Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which
will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial
Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."
Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading
that you described.
Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city
of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of
the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday
morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New
York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the
Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street,
New York.
"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient
time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants
to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which
he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his
commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the
city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key
of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.
Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper
in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.
Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion
literature with respect to your Haitian venture?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible
investor with the personalities involved.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and
you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian
Government.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard
Joseph Charles?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify
as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of
correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you
transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received.
(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first
sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in
your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas.
The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr.
Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you,
dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in
your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."
Is what I have said correct?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one
sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum
Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building,
Dallas 1, Tex.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have
given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4,
5, and 6" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to
Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one
a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963,
from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of
yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil;
dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes
of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De
Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and
16" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some
additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three
documents.
The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in
the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul
Raigorodsky.
The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten
signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."
Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You
transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also
enclose the third document, which is a diagram of----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand
"Credits available for these industries--George De M., Dallas,
September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which
you--excuse me.
Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified
as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9,
and 10" for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.
(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11"
for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of
Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available
to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is
it not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not
elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the
upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an
arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts."
Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three
lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the
word "Caracol." Read those words.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach."
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant
there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis."
And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands
encircled, there appears more writing.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have
you explain it all later.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession."
Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at
the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have
already identified in the record.
Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions
we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between
the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center
of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the
area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is
some writing. What is that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the
bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow
pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel."
Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of
the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an
area, the chief town of which appears to be what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes.
Mr. JENNER. And what is written there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on
there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about
your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in
some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous
work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in
the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.
I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which--
Mr. JENNER. Of what country?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity
to present a geological survey of Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and
all the mineralogical points of the whole country.
Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a
legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to
you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral
deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who
might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business
promotional project.
Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in
any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great
care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or
group?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps,
and no other project, except our own commercial and geological
project--nothing else.
Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision
by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here
in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are
officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.
On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and
on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building.
He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his
maps, and we pursue our own work there.
I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian
geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the
equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss
assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now,
recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his
family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.
I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska,
an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and
geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have
geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian
Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay
$20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the
sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.
This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J.
Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now
Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work,
and I am pursuing my geological work.
Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because
I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the
project, and its good faith.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be
sufficiently justified in good faith.
Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which
you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually
participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.
Mr. JENNER. Such as?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries,
development of oil production, development of new hotels and new
resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I
think has excellent opportunities for American investments.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you
not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in
connection with the assassination of the President?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away
from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would
do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there
are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at
targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent,
you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to
jail, but sent away from the town.
Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind.
Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon,
and he was target practicing with it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that
knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I
think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have
known.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not
know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's
attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel----
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information.
Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they
should have done what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have--in my opinion, they
shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1.
And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even
knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent
character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from
the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New
Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should
have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated
February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt
Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12
and 13," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and
its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15,
respectively.
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14
and 15," for identification.)
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made
official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed
by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating
that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the
consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti,
originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S.
Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on
sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the
duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I
think that will explain it.
Mr. JENNER. Fine.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project,
because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.
Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De
Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his
letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to
read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might
want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of
the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.
It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.
"Dear George:
"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please
accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you.
"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew
Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."
Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the
words "It seems."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I
imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington
again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to
meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my
warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."
Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I
hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.
"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss."
Mr. JENNER. Dated?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas
card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3,
Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph?
Mr. JENNER. The whole card.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes
for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.
"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital.
Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We
are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas.
"George."
Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the
crimes in Dallas"?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President
and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the
assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one
after another.
Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the
flesh?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Did you know him when you were in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him
when you were in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took
place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything
occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or
indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to
you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw,
that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you
to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he did not join?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that.
Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an
opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any
business advantage.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite
a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of
Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of
the whole project. It may be all for the best.
Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of
Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily
to the--what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting
forth the background of information on a holding company that you were
developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company."
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962."
Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have
just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many
other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and
people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.
I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development
of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil
possibilities.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the
record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything
that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions
which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is
pertinent and should be brought out?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any.
Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you
this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful
investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think
is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important
work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you
could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much
as you can?
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at
some inconvenience?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff,
I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this
country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here
for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly
personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been
personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read
your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that
you would like to read it over.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very
hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have
said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very
much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive
the necessity of reading and signing?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Fine.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might
have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability.
Mr. JENNER. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow.
If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you
don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it.
I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De
Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive.
TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT
The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 4:45 p.m., on
April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but
the truth, in the course of your deposition which I am about to take?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. George S. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why "S"? The "S" doesn't belong there at all.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he acknowledged that it does.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. S?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Sergei.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a brother by the same name Sergei, and he
had a son by the name Sergei. Maybe he wants to add the letter to our
name.
Mr. JENNER. No. It shows in the records for many, many years.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never knew that. Sergei is his father's
name--that is what it is.
Mr. JENNER. You have a brother whose name is Sergei, do you not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Sergei Michail Fomenko.
Give me your full maiden name. Your name as you were born and given to
you by your parents.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name will be Eugenia.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have no middle name. Just Fomenko.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother's name was Tatiana?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Tatiana. My father, Michail.
Mr. JENNER. And your father was Michail L.?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is for--his father was Lev.
Mr. JENNER. You were born in China?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Our information is it was at Harbin.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What is the nearest town?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nearest town to what?
Mr. JENNER. Harbin.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not--I cannot say.
Mr. JENNER. What part of China?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is Manchuria. The northern part of China,
close to the Siberian border.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the Russian-Chinese border?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a sister?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall, we had a--we had three
portraits in the house, of children--my portrait, my brother's
portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. And the
portrait--she was about 3 or 4 years old. I don't know how, where did
they get that idea, or was I actually told--but she is supposed to be
my half-sister--Alexandra her name was supposed to be. And I think my
father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they
don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. We have never
had any curiosity about it.
Mr. JENNER. You are a naturalized citizen of this Nation, are you not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you naturalized on April 6, 1936?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--couldn't. I came here in 1938. How could you
possibly get that?
Mr. JENNER. All right. I am misadvised. I was looking at the wrong
thing. You were naturalized when?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was 1945, but I cannot be
absolutely sure. I have my papers in the hotel. 1944 or 1945, maybe it
is 1944. If you want the exact date, I can easily get it for you. Do
you actually have information, naturalized in 1936?
Mr. JENNER. No, I don't. I have your immigration record here. I will
find it in a moment. You became a U.S. citizen in proceedings in the
U.S. district court, in New York City, February 28, 1945.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1945.
Mr. JENNER. Were you born on May 5, 1914?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Your parents, were they Russian citizens?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father took a Chinese passport, and I cannot
tell you whether he already had it when I was born, or whether he took
one later. But I believe he took one later. He took probably one later,
when they sold the railroad to the Reds, you know. That is when he took
the Chinese passport.
Mr. JENNER. He was born in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your mother was born in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To my knowledge, yes. They were living a few
years in China before I was born.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in what business or occupation or government service
was your father engaged?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was in charge of the Far Eastern
railroad.
Mr. JENNER. For what country?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For China. He was working directly with the
Chinese Government and with Chinese officials, with Chinese people. And
then in 1925, when the Chinese sold the railroad----
Mr. JENNER. When what?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1925, the Chinese people sold the railroad
to the Russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the
Trans-Siberian Railroad. My father resigned. And he received quite a
lot of money from that. He had been in the service for quite a few
years.
Mr. JENNER. You were 11 years old then?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1925; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of this event?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I knew about that. I cannot tell
you--that is recollections of the past. And he started to build another
railroad on his own called HoHi Railroad.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
You came to this country on August 4, 1938.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right; San Francisco.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, your father, as you said, was director of a
Chinese Eastern railroad.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I was looking for some papers here. The Chinese sold the
railroad to Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was in 1925?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is how I understood it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, your father ceased at that time to be
director of the Chinese Eastern Railroad.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He resigned, and in fact we were
planning to come to the United States, the whole family. We wanted to
come to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just because it is not our country to live there
forever. We were brought up with white people, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to
the Russians?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because from what I know they wanted him to take
a Communist passport, and he refused.
Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is from what I know he is supposed to have
Chinese passport.
Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. He was--not the
chief, but the elderly friend for the Scouts. We had a wonderful Scout
organization, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. He was very, very active
in that. He was sort of like a patron for it. We have a marvelous
organization in China. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in the world
yet--how well it was conducted.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father eventually?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We never could, since 1941, right after Pearl
Harbor----
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After Pearl Harbor, we didn't have any
communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. We tried to check
through the Red Cross and find out. Nothing could be done. We just
couldn't find out. Whenever I saw some people that returned from China,
came over, and whenever I asked them what happened to my parents, did
you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't
know, they just disappeared. Then in 1957, when I saw my brother, he
told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in 1945 and
he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. Father was
killed by the Communists.
Mr. JENNER. Which Communists?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know which ones--the Chinese
or Reds or Japanese--I don't know who. And he was taken on the
railroad--that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere
and shoot you. And my brother told me he died in 1941. I don't know how
he found out. I assume and I think that the American government helped
him, because he is in rather secret work. He could not possibly do it,
having parents----
Mr. JENNER. This is your brother who lives out in California?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you eventually--before you came to the United States,
were you married?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was married to my first husband.
Mr. JENNER. Did you marry in China?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the name of your first husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He had a few first names, and to tell you the
truth I don't know which one is the right one. I cannot say. Because
half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called
him by the other name.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name was Valentin, and the second one
was Bob--they called him Bob. So which one is right, I don't know. But
I liked Bob better.
Mr. JENNER. What was his last name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His last name was Bogoiavlensky.
Mr. JENNER. And you were married when?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we were married in 1932, in the fall.
Mr. JENNER. In what business or profession was your husband engaged
when you were married?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, at the time when we were married, he
was--we were both working, making designs and constructions--making
plans and building houses together.
Mr. JENNER. Were you associated in business?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't exactly business. I don't know--it
is not done like it is done in the United States. We just knew how to
build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had
the project--somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we
would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with
contractors and had the building constructed. And then I believe he was
also working in the--the Japanese were building their airport.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Harbin. And he was helping and surveying
the grounds or something. This I don't know, because I wasn't
present--something on this order. And that is what really actually made
us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the Japanese started to
grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants.
They wanted to keep everything very, very secret. So quite a few of our
friends just disappeared overnight.
And then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already,
completely beaten to a pulp and so on. Quite a few things started to
go on. And then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that
we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said
we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. We took
a train and went south, and went to Shanghai, and lived in Shanghai,
until we were ready to come to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. While you were in China, were you and your husband--did you
engage as a dancing team?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was dancing quite well.
You see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job
somewhere. So he was helping me. He helped me as a partner. And I
danced a solo.
We did that in Tientsin. And then Shanghai.
Mr. JENNER. And in order to support yourselves----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were a dancing team.
You see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were
doing very well really. Fate does strange things to you--throws you
from one profession to another. You think it is the greatest tragedy--I
will tell you later what happened to me--and it is the best, actually.
So it was working out very well. We were quite successful. And then
something happened later.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you change your name at this period of your life?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We changed the name when we started dancing.
Mr. JENNER. And you changed your name to what?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. LeGon. We picked up the name out of the
dancing magazine. But with this name--you see how it happens. You
get so involved that you have to stick to it. You cannot just--you
knew--because some people know you by this name, then you start with
another name, and it sounds ridiculous. But since then already we had
it. And we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it,
because personally I don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is
not fair for the country to use a name like Bogoiavlensky, or a name
like De Mohrenschildt. If it would be up to me, I would cut the other
one down.
It took me 3 months to learn to pronounce that name.
Mr. JENNER. There have been some people that because of the name
LeGon--that you had some French. You are not French?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, I will tell you. I had to start in New York
to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had
terrible trouble to get any kind of work. He was making $18 a week.
Mr. JENNER. In 1938?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was 1940, 1941, when my little girl was
born.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter was born in this country?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your daughter's name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why I could not dance any more. I had to
drop completely dancing and everything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned your daughter, let's cover her.
What was her given name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her given name was Jeanne Elinor LeGon. Also
after a dancer.
Mr. JENNER. Eleanor Powell?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, exactly. And being unaware--you see, in
Europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second
one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case.
In the States the last name is the one that counts--the previous names
don't mean much.
So when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a
legal paper of changing our name to LeGon. So in her birth certificate
I put down Jeanne Elinor LeGon and just in case, Bogoiavlensky, so just
in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown
somewhere--I was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be
put out of the country or something--she was born here, and that is her
name, and I put that Bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate.
And that started the whole uproar.
And besides--I lost her birth certificate once when I needed it for a
passport--I could not find it, because I was looking under "L"--I told
them to look under "L". And for months they were looking under "L" and
then it dawned on me, did I put, by any chance, Bogoiavlensky.
So they filed it under "B".
Well, it is my own fault--I asked for it. I can't get rid of that name.
It is a pretty name. In fact, it is a very novel name. But I don't
think it belongs in this country. I think it is ridiculous for people
to have such long names. If you are a priest's family, that would be
fine. But not for us.
Mr. JENNER. When was your daughter born?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She mas born April 30, 1941.
Mr. JENNER. I might go back with your husband.
Where was your husband born, your first husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, he was born in--I think in
Russia--and brought out as a very, very little boy. And I never met his
father. His mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. I only
knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful.
He had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in
the war with China and Japan. We never could find them. One of them
was with the British forces and another with the French forces. And
I understand one was sent to Hong Kong, and the other remained in
Shanghai. And we never heard from them.
So that is one of the really big tragedies. We were anxious to find
them, because we were going to get them over here. They had good heads.
They could grow up very fine.
Mr. JENNER. You have always regarded the United States as a haven?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. It was the country by choice,
because we could have gone to Europe. But I didn't want anything--this
was from so and so. I said I wanted to have a country where everything
is new and fresh, and if I break something I go to the store and buy
another one.
I never have anything you can break. It was just because I was brought
up with furniture with little gilded things in it, I don't want any
part of it. I have been in Europe about 15 times after.
Mr. JENNER. I know you have.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I enjoy being there for a few weeks. But I
would never live in Europe. I would not be happy.
If I had to, I would live there, but I don't like--the whole atmosphere
doesn't appeal to me.
Mr. JENNER. There have been various reports on your views with respect
to Russia and communism.
What are your views?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I am?
Mr. JENNER. What are your views?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My views?
Well, I tell you. I am not a Communist by all means at all. I think
that revolution in Russia was inevitable. It is just horrible that it
happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people----
Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about the revolution of the 1920's?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, I think.
Mr. JENNER. 1918, 1919.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, 1918--that is when it started. I know in
fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never
any conversation--too many people were killed. In fact, from what I
understand, all the families of my father and mother were killed, too.
So we never had any conversation about it. We just were kept away from
the whole thing.
And, beside, I deliberately stayed away from all of that. I said it is
none of my business, I have never been there, I don't know what it is
all about, I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be
prejudiced to anything.
But after, later on, when I grew up and the revolution was necessary,
it is just too bad it happened like that.
And I do hope that the country eventually will come out and become
human again, and I think it is getting to be more and more human.
But it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have.
That was the most wonderful thing. When I came here--unfortunately, I
landed in New York. I didn't want to, but my brother was in New York
and he said you come right away to New York.
I love California, because of the climate. I like sunshine. So I came
to New York, and New York, of course, was very depressing to me,
because it was dirty. And I had an idea that all the white countries
and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed
to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. They are
supposed to be well mannered.
And then I came in in that awful New York. And, of course, I had almost
no money. I had to use subways. It was very, very bad.
But then I saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering
of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying
anything he wants to. And I said, what is going on? They said he is
just saying something--I forgot what it was all about. But how people
were talking freely and expressing themselves openly.
Mr. JENNER. They had a right to do that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; And in China--you see, we were always--we
never could say anything openly, for many reasons.
First, I don't know, but I assume there was a lot of Red spies probably
everywhere. So we could never say too much.
Then there were Japanese that came over. We couldn't say anything again.
So we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you
never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will
happen to you. That is the atmosphere that I was brought up in.
I wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because
sometimes he says things--of course, being European, he likes to see
Russia.
I said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for 2 days,
you would be shot in 2 days. He doesn't feel that there is a place,
places that you cannot be like he is. You just cannot do it. Maybe
that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he
wants to say, and people misinterpret it. People misinterpret it, and
then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else,
and then they say he says something bad. This is really terrible. This
is many, many times, you know. But he learned his lesson now. Living
in Haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with Papa Doc. You know the
regime there now. He is quite a dictator. He is going to be pronounced
the king now, at the end of May. And, of course, there is tremendous
opposition against it. It is not for our sake, but for our Haitian
friends' sake, we cannot say anything.
So he learned a little bit of the atmosphere where you cannot talk.
He said--"I am so glad we went to Haiti, because I have no desire to go
to Russia."
That was wonderful. It was music to my ears.
I said, "Now, you learn."
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But some day I hope, anyway. I would like to see
it. I would like to go down south to the Crimea which I understand is
beautiful, the Black Sea. I would like to see all the world.
I saw quite a lot.
But I would like to see that, too.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother, Sergei, he came over to this country, did he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What?
Mr. JENNER. Don't you have a brother by the name of----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he what?
Mr. JENNER. He came to this country?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. I believe he came in 1930.
Mr. JENNER. And he is still here?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where is he located now?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is in Woodland Hills, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. Engaged in----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is 4560 Deseret Drive.
He is with North American Aircraft Co. He just switched. He was with
Ramo Wooldridge. A few years before that he was with Linnet Co. in
Beverly Hills, and before that with Howard Hughes, and before that he
was with Berkeley, University at Berkeley, doing some research.
Mr. JENNER. He attended the University of Chicago?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He attended after the war. But he originally
came over to study in Berkeley. He graduated from Berkeley. But then
when the war broke out he volunteered--he was 2-1/2 years in service.
But he was never sent over, because he did so much important research
work, that they kept him here.
And he met Professor Rasby of Chicago University. And then he went to
work with him in Chicago University for very, very little money, but he
had all the facilities for his work. That is where he met his second
wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, I hope. Four
little kinds, darling home.
Mr. JENNER. And you eventually were divorced from your first husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He retained the name Robert LeGon?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't change his name back to Bogoiavlensky?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
By the way, do you know he is in a rest home?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a lot of unpleasantness around in that
time, because he was already going off completely.
Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced from him in the summer of 1959?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no, no; before that. It was 1957, spring of
1957. Yes; it was in the spring of 1957.
I believe it was first of May or something. I don't remember exactly.
But it is pretty close.
Mr. JENNER. And you married your present husband, George De
Mohrenschildt, in the summer of 1959?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1959, yes; in June, towards the end of June.
Mr. JENNER. And your daughter who was born to you in New York City----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Manhattan Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. She was--her given name was----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jeanne Elinor LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. And she changed her name to Christiana?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her father did it. She was just a youngster.
You know what happened to him mentally. He went completely--I don't
know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them,
maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's
name or something. But for a particular reason he didn't take it
himself, but he put it--insisted that my daughter will take the name.
Mr. JENNER. What name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bogoiavlensky--and drop the LeGon. And she
was baptized--she was brought up as Episcopalian. I never baptized
her, because I wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew
up. I know too many people who have too many difficulties later when
they find out they want something else. By the time she was baptized
she liked the name Christiana and she took that name. And he changed
her name to Bogoiavlensky again. So it was very, very unpleasant and
horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do.
Mr. JENNER. Did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing
you of being a Communist?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if you have a letter, I wish
I would have a letter what he did. You see I had charge accounts
throughout the country, because I was making very good money. Lord and
Taylor, Saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. And when that
happened, I actually told him that is the end, I am divorcing you, and
that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent
out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the
department stores, including Niemans, and I believe Niemans showed me
the letter, and there was a Golden Pheasant Restaurant--they showed me
the letter--that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that
Eugenia Fomenko Bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is--almost putting that
I am a spy, and God knows what in it, and that he is not responsible
for my debts, for my accounts.
It was 1957, and since 1941 I was the one that made all the money in
the family. I was the one making all these things, bringing up my
child. So that was horrible. That is not all. He sent letters, and he
signed "FBI"--make believe they are from the FBI. He sent to all my
people in New York, firms that I work with, that also I am a spy or
something, this and that, horrible.
And I was in Europe that summer. And a friend of mine came over and
said, "What is the matter with you?" She said, "What happened to you?
The FBI are looking for you."
I said, "Are you kidding me?"
She said "No;" one of the manufacturers showed her the letter.
I said, "For God sakes, this is ridiculous, I never heard of such a
thing."
So when I come back to New York I right away went to see all of them.
They said, some were laughing about it. But some I know they had a
little something behind their heads.
Mr. JENNER. They were worried?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that,
already set people thinking. And do you know that I could not get a job
in New York, just because of that? And, fortunately, being in Texas, I
switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and I had two jobs in no
time in that market.
And I was able to get--I lost my job in Texas while I was in Europe
because of that.
He sent that to my employer.
I never told that--I don't know if my present husband knows it--because
that would really kill him, a thing like that.
But it was eventually straightened out. But I was actually out, I
couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, I had to
send her money. I had nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Where was she attending a university?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. UCLA.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1957. Fall of 1957.
Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to live with you right after she
was----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came over for summer.
Mr. JENNER. In 1957?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I will tell you. It is really a very tragic
thing. I knew I should have dropped this when she was 6 years old,
because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. But we just
had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things.
And he just could not adapt himself to the country.
I know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost.
Whatever we had, it is never the same. It never was good enough. Our
daughter would never have what we had in childhood.
He was from a very wealthy family, and, fortunately, I was, too.
I said, "For goodness sakes, who cares? We are alive. How many people
are dead already? We are here. It is a new country. We will make what
we want to make out of it."
I started from $25 a week. And in New York I was making $1,100 a week.
That is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it,
and you work. And if you don't have a negative attitude.
But he could not. Even when we had a nice home in California, with
beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see Catalina Island and
everything. He said, "No; at our house we had 30 people for dinner
every day." It is awful. He never could get adjusted to it.
Mr. JENNER. But he wasn't earning a living, was he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he wasn't. He was always--you see, I
understand from talking to doctors--he was off for quite a while, which
I didn't know. I didn't know it. And it never occurred to me. We were
brought up maybe 200 years set back. This was the husband, and that is
the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it
is that is how it is going to stay. So it never occurred to me there
could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. In fact, my
brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find
out why he should have such an attitude, but I laughed at my brother.
Unfortunately, maybe I should have listened to him.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit--you came to this country. Did you and
your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were supposed to. We had auditions with Moss
and Hart, very successful. And we were almost ready to have a contract
in the Rainbow Room. And then I became pregnant with my little girl.
And that really shattered us to pieces. We are awfully happy to have
a child, but that was not the time to have the child. We had to leave
everything in China, because we had to cross all Japan. So that was--at
the time it was just like a tragedy. And after she was born, I could
never dance.
Mr. JENNER. Now, after the birth of your daughter, did you--what did
you do to sustain your family?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I stayed home for 1 year. We just lived on
whatever he made. Because I wanted to bring her up--I don't believe in
nurses. I like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in
whatever a little baby should be trained.
And then if he could possibly make a little better, I would not go to
work.
But then I saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and
more depressed, and is getting worse. He just didn't care. He had that
attitude, "I don't care." I said if that is his attitude, if I don't do
something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. So I started to
think. What could I do? I spoke English, but crazy pigeon English.
I couldn't do anything architecturally, because I don't know the
terminology. I can automatically make the drawings, but I would not be
able to render it. It would be impossible for me to have anything.
And then actually, without knowing anything, I became a model. I had
two lessons, and I pretended that I was very experienced. I fooled
everybody. And I somehow got a job as a model.
And then--at one place it didn't work out, because it was very
depressing and horrible atmosphere. On Seventh Avenue it is no joke.
Mr. JENNER. My daughter is a model.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably with a good firm.
I have a couple of firms that are fantastic. And then I switched to
Leeds Ltd. And within 1 year, from modeling, from 25, I became in
charge of the showroom. I was selling, I was selecting fabrics, and
became a stylist.
And then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and I have
been with them for 7 years.
But to start with, I worked 7 days a week. I worked even Sunday, until
1 o'clock--that is how hard I worked.
And the very same firm paid me in 1957 to design a collection for them,
the same clothes I did 10 years ago--$500 for 5 days, for 4-1/2 days.
So you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. Only in the
United States.
Mr. JENNER. A country of opportunity.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you want to.
That is what Marina--that is why I get mad with her. I told her,
"Marina, look at me."
Let's not talk about Marina now.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get to that. But I would like to cover this
background first.
You continued as a designer?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I switched firms.
Mr. JENNER. Of Leeds Wearing Apparel?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I started to travel to Europe.
Mr. JENNER. You made frequent trips to Europe?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Twice a year.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, eventually, you reached Texas. How did that
happen?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my daughter had asthma. She is a very
allergic child. And her health was really terrible. In spite of all the
care given to her, she just could not stand the New York climate. And
our family doctor said the only way to save her--she was getting really
sick from antibiotics and penicillin--is to change the climate.
So I was very anxious to change the climate--going to California, that
was my aim.
But I could not reach California. Mr. Gold, of Nardis Sportswear in New
York, wanted to open a suit department. And, of course, the buyers did
know me all over the country--the same buyers--recommended to get in
touch with me and engage me. And it was pretty good. It was $20,000 a
year, plus two trips to Europe, with expenses paid, and about $7,000 to
buy the models--you just cannot go in and look at the shows.
So I decided I am going to go and do it. And Texas is better
climatewise than New York.
And, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left New York.
It is a fantastic change.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you go to Texas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Texas in 1953, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. 1953. Did your husband accompany you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came in the summer, and then I had to go
immediately to Europe. And he came over in the fall, when my daughter
returned from camp. He came over in the fall, and then shipped all the
furniture.
In the meanwhile, I stayed with the Golds. They have a very big
mansion----
Mr. JENNER. Your husband left Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he came in the fall of 1953.
Mr. JENNER. He came in the fall from New York City?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was there--how long did he stay?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He stayed there until about February of 1954.
Mr. JENNER. And then he did what?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then he went to California.
Mr. JENNER. Was he working?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he went to visit my brother for holidays.
We always tried to go to California instead of going to Miami, to be
with my brother. And he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move
to California. So we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate
something while I finish my contract. My contract was expiring in the
spring of 1954.
Mr. JENNER. Your contract with Nardis?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I would go there, also, also in the
late spring or early summer--maybe he can locate something in the
meanwhile, in California.
And then I was very lucky. It was Mr. Gold's tough luck. But it was
good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. There was a
tremendous scandal. And he had two buildings--he lost one of the
buildings. In other words, he could not afford even to go into the
suit operation, and go ahead with it. So he was very glad that I asked
for release, and he was glad to give it to me. He thought I am going
to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract
before. And I was very glad. It worked out very nice for me. We
remained good friends. And then I went to California.
Mr. JENNER. Did you work in California?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked with Style Garments, a coat and
suit firm.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the name of it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Style Garments. They are out of business now.
The owners were interested in real estate. And they went into real
estate. So the firm closed up.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in California?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Actually living in one spot--that was 1954. I
think it was 1955, spring, I received an offer from Dallas, to fly
just for 2 or 3 weeks, and design a collection of suits. It was for I.
Clark. That was wonderful.
Mr. JENNER. That took you back to Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On and off. I just went for a few weeks. You
see, I designed a suit collection, and I went back. And then they asked
me to come over and do some more dresses. So I started to go there back
and forth. And also, at the same time, going to New York to buy fabrics
for the firm, and at the same time I decided, well, if I do that, I
might do the same type of work in New York. If I can fly to New York
to buy fabrics, I can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand
dollars.
I designed a collection for Handmacher. I designed a collection for
Leeds. One week I got $1,100. So you can see what can happen.
But that really was getting me. Because it went on until 1956 fall. I
was on the plane more than off the plane. And it wasn't very good for
my daughter. She was already 14, 15.
Mr. JENNER. You had custody of your daughter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the divorce?
Mr. JENNER. Were you taking your daughter on these trips?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; how could I? She was going to school all
the time.
Mr. JENNER. Was she going to school in California?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; going to high school.
Mr. JENNER. Eventually, did you take up permanent residence in Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I took up permanent residence at the time when I
told my husband I am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of
1956.
Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take your daughter with you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. She was then what age?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was 15. And I have a reason for doing that,
because I just couldn't do it to her father. He would be completely
killed. The only thing left--he doesn't have any relatives at all. He
doesn't have a single soul in this world. In fact, I tell you--in the
divorce case, I insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her
money, he will have money to live on, too.
If I took the daughter, I could not give him money to live on--he
wouldn't take it. But if he had custody of the child then she will be
provided for, and he could still keep on going with that.
So that was the thing. But it worked out the other way--when he
completely turned in rage. He even, when I flew to California he
wouldn't let me see her. I had to get a sheriff to see her. Now, I
understand.
Mr. JENNER. He is in a mental institution in California now?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He was, on and off, and finally he is
there. He seems to be incurable.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you meet your present husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956.
Mr. JENNER. When you came back to Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To design a collection. I was working there.
Mr. JENNER. And did his daughter as well as your daughter join you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did, but later on.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She joined us in, I think, the spring of 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had both girls for a while. You know, she
eloped, his little girl.
Mr. JENNER. And married Gary Taylor?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I wanted to break that marriage right
away, and get her back in school, and spank her--really tough. But the
parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. It
was no love--it was just delinquency. She didn't know who I was. She
thought I will be easy going--knowing her father, she thought I was
easy going. And all of a sudden she came in. She had to study, she had
to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with I have to meet
first. So she couldn't possibly--I talked to her just last year. I
said, "Tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought I
would be very easy. And you certainly didn't like the way I was strict
with you."
But I was strict with my daughter, also. And she was older than she
was. And she would not go out until she brought the young man to
introduce. And then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my
present husband.
She asked, "What do you think of him?"
She was 19 already. That little kid was just 14 or 15. So I could not
possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much
older.
Sometimes I think maybe if I wasn't so strict with her, maybe--you
never know with children.
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra, is
now married.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is divorced.
Can you imagine that?
Mr. JENNER. She has remarried.
Tell me about your present husband. What kind of a person is he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. He is a terrific person,
absolutely terrific. He has a soul of gold. I really mean it. And
sometimes he drives me so crazy, I can just smash his head, because he
is so impatient. He is extremely impatient. He is always in a hurry.
You have to be 10 times faster than he is in order to have everything
quiet. That is about the only quality that I would not like--he is just
always in a hurry. He is always rushing somewhere, and everything has
to be just immediately. Never a second late.
Mr. JENNER. Is he an outspoken person?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; very, very, very outspoken person.
Mr. JENNER. Very handsome and an attractive man?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. I like--inside--I think he is
much better inside than outside. He is a good-looking man. And women
find him fantastically attractive. I don't. I like his personality. I
think he is wonderful. He feels--he is nice with people, he is nice
with animals. I don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate
harm.
He can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and
actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may
hurt them. He may do that.
But he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. So by
speaking like that--for instance, he can make a joke about a person,
really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person.
Mr. JENNER. He is a little heavy in his humor?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it is uncalled for at all.
And, later on, when I tell him, he agrees with me. But it was already
said. And especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully
hurt. And he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing
people, which some people appreciate and some people don't.
I personally don't appreciate teasing, and I don't appreciate--I don't
think it is necessary. He thinks it is very funny. I don't think it
is funny at all. That is the thing. Through that, I am sure he has a
couple of people that don't like him very well. I don't think they
hate him. The only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife,
because of the children.
Mr. JENNER. Didi?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was so hateful, that nothing could just
soften her or break her down--nothing, nothing, nothing. No matter how
he tried, no matter how I tried, nothing. It is a blank wall. Such
hatred, such venom and such hatred. It is impossible.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why it is so wonderful when he told me
that she spoke nicely about him. It was a wonderful surprise. It is for
the first time, really. It was a very pleasant surprise. So we have
hope--maybe she is growing up. You don't have to be grown up to grow up.
Mr. JENNER. What are your husband's political views? Now, I mean
political with a capital P. I don't mean Democrat or Republican
politics. I mean political in the grand sense.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the grand sense--I would say he is a real
Democrat, for democracy. But, also, you see, both of us--we don't
believe that every country should have the same government, because
each country--a certain government will be good for one country, and
would be completely awful for another.
For instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries
may need that. They may live better, happier, until they grow up a
little more to handle themselves. So we don't--I would say we are very,
very flexible on this point, both of us--very flexible. It just depends
what is the best for the people. If people are ready and able to have a
complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world.
But it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off,
because some countries get lost--they still have to be guided.
Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him as a loyal American?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. He doesn't have to be here. He has
friends all over the world. And--we live out more than in. Why do we
come back? What is the reason? Just because we like it.
Gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the
United States. We are aiming for the San Francisco area, northern
California. That is where we would love. We love swimming, the ocean.
That is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want
to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it
ourselves, in the place we want to. Not just to hop around.
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind returning at 9 tomorrow morning?
TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED
The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April
24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert
E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. You worked for Judy Bond, Inc.?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Judy Bond, and Nancy Greer, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. The same firm?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at
the same time.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned.
I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to
dresses.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Jack Rothenberg familiar to you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could
be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer.
Mr. JENNER. The records reflect that you were employed there as a
designer in the fall of 1957.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were
two--Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner.
Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall working for Handmacher Vogel in 1956?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You remember when I told you I flew in and
designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited.
The same year.
Mr. JENNER. Leeds Coats, Inc.?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Also 1956, wasn't it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956.
Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in
the fall of 1946?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You
see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And
instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which
happens to be Martins.
Mr. JENNER. Martins Fashion Apparel Store?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers
very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want,
on the floor. That was the general idea.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942,
1944, and 1945.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't
remember for sure.
Mr. JENNER. And the fall of 1946. Then you worked for a while for R. H.
Macy.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just on the same basis--just for a couple of
days.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right. I just want to know that you did.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. About when was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. It must be before 1947,
because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I
just couldn't combine it.
Mr. JENNER. Way back in 1941 you worked for a while for Bloom and Eagen.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, a dress firm.
Mr. JENNER. Can you remember about when that was? You worked there as a
model?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was before I even started with Leeds.
Mr. JENNER. You worked there as a model.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Lombardy Coat Co.?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I
don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a
couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor
happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it.
Mr. JENNER. And your employment in Dallas was----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1953.
Mr. JENNER. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for
which you worked in 1953?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nardis; Nardis of Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And that spanned about what period of time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That spanned almost a year, starting summer 1953.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I terminated the contract around April.
Mr. JENNER. Around April of 1954?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately.
Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for whom?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From then on, I moved to California, and I
started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1954?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too
long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had
an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And that----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my first job with Clark, because I
worked for Nardis before.
Mr. JENNER. And you worked for Clark for how long?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our
walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960.
Mr. JENNER. That was in 1960?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960.
Mr. JENNER. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and
summer and fall of 1960?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We
left Dallas on October 6 or October 5.
Mr. JENNER. 1960?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned when?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to
the same date--in the very first days of October. I worked for another
company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip.
Mr. JENNER. Spring or fall?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was summer, just before we went on our
trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too.
1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip.
Mr. JENNER. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when
you got back?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going
to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was
negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was
stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could
not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved.
You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and
dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize
the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. But it did eventually materialize?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly
hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off
on this, and he couldn't do very much, either.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For me it was really drastic.
Mr. JENNER. But you went to work--you did return to work before you
went to Haiti?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we
needed to do it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Millinery. I was working in the millinery
department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Preston Center?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Preston Center Store.
Mr. JENNER. And you worked in the millinery department until just
before----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before we left for the east, before we made a
trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth
of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we
planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and
then he was also in Washington.
We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the
whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and
God knows--we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days.
And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace
Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew
over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with
everything.
Mr. JENNER. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I
think, was on the second of June----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We arrived 2 June. Oh, yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other
than this trip you have now made to testify?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan
about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In
fact, we didn't leave the country at all.
Mr. JENNER. That applies to your husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband
was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in
Yugoslavia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you join him there?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the
date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished
designing--I joined him--it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was
my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my
husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and
they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with
this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job.
Mr. JENNER. You joined him in Yugoslavia. What town was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Zagreb.
Mr. JENNER. And you were with him in Zagreb how long?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10
days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He
worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And
then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was
Petrovaz, a little town.
Mr. JENNER. And he remained there, and you remained there how long?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Petrovaz?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had
time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was
an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had
been shooting at us in Yugoslavia?
Mr. JENNER. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about
that. But I would like to have you tell me about it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to
be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature--nothing that already
will be prepared for us. So we took--in the morning we took a walk in
the mountains. We climbed the mountains.
In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it
was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast--the most beautiful spot
in the world. And the mountains--we saw something that looked like a
fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and
pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was
old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they
were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested
in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing
this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea.
He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do
something to them--this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know
a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out.
Mr. JENNER. Who is obnoxious?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want
to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the
shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out--his
bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The
current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it
was very difficult.
So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said,
"They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni,
the villa where Tito lives--they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough.
We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a
little island. We left the canoe.
Mr. JENNER. Canoe or rowboat?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat.
So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front
of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the
water in front of another cave. It was beautiful--just like a curtain
drape. And all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from
me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the
cave and we were sitting there--what are we going to do? We are quite
far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they
shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and
talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk
to us, but nobody came.
So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we
dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore.
Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got
angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials
came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was
another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty,
not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is
what happened to us in Yugoslavia.
When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches
of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such
things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States
Government.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody
doing some sketching.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day--he went for
a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero.
Mr. JENNER. Nero is one of your pups?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of
course, Haitians--they almost called him Longaron--that is a werewolf,
Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very
mild people. They just enjoyed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you leave Europe on that occasion?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When--1957?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot tell you exactly. But it was in the
fall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you both return to the United States together?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He
stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember
right after he returned Clark was in New York.
Mr. JENNER. That is I. Clark?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And in fact he went with me to meet him at
the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me
into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned
together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth.
Mr. JENNER. At Hanover, N.H.?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and then we drove slowly--we drove
through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw
it--St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to
drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through
Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his
old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They
have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at
Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Of what year?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was 1957; still 1957.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall your husband making a trip to Ghana?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he did. I believe it was in 1958, in late
spring.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not for long. It was about 3 weeks or so.
Mr. JENNER. That was for what purpose? What did you understand it to be
for?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, to make--he was working for some people,
for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and
he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the
National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said
now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria.
Mr. JENNER. Nigeria and Ghana, are they the same?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They are not the same, but they are close. He
was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines
throughout the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating
business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that
now. It is a fantastic business.
Mr. JENNER. It is fantastic?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you love nature. Otherwise, it is no fun at
all.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I
draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic
about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated.
They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I
really love that.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about
your trip down through Mexico and Central America.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never
forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more
exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and
in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost
like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us.
Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy
with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us--we
get killed or not killed--the only thing we worry about Nero being an
orphan if something happen to us.
But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little
trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so
well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried
water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took
water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the
afternoon, his dinner.
Mr. JENNER. The mule?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn.
Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5-1/2 months through Mexico.
Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting.
Mr. JENNER. Costa Rica?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to
cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make
that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go
through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we
were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we
would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin
like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in
good physical shape. But the torrential rains--we were almost swept
out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in
order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from
our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return
to Dallas. And I didn't want to.
Mr. JENNER. Before you get to Haiti--was that purely a business trip--I
mean a pleasure trip?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot
of minerals on the way. And he sent them--he had been sending them to
be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We
found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such
perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost.
But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where
we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have
time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it,
because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything,
because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. Your visa in Mexico permitted you to stay there 6 months?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the
border--that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would
be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry.
But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a
volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you
imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since
I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the
crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The
lava was gushing down. We have photographs and movies. I am from the
red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero--my hair is
standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we
walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any consideration other than you have
indicated, any purpose--I will put it that way--of your trip other than
you have indicated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency,
or any government?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not at all.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any political aspects whatsoever?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know you have to ask these questions, but
there was none at all, absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico
and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred,
did it not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But we learned about it much later.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Were you aware of the Bay of Pigs invasion in
advance?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Advance? We were not even aware at the time of
it.
Mr. JENNER. You were not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. But we noticed something very funny. We
noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They
looked like American boys. And then when we--we had----
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always
sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived,
asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute
we arrived to the city--we leave our mule and go right away to the
Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a
commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked
about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of
the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion
was going on.
So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running
around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that
there was an invasion.
So maybe that was the people that were involved in it.
Mr. JENNER. That is all you know about the Bay of Pigs invasion?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all we know about it.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in Cuba?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and
you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mikoyan?
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped.
We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was
also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York.
Mr. JENNER. What was the time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you have a date when she eloped--sometime in
November.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must
be. I think it was 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was November 1959, to my best
belief. I cannot be sure.
Chronologically, it must be around there.
Mr. JENNER. You tell me about the incident and I will find the date.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was very simple. We had dinner with the
presidential pilot and some other friends.
Mr. JENNER. That is the pilot of the President of Mexico?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the
name. Can we just say presidential pilot?
Mr. JENNER. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now,
you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you
understand it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. G-o-r-d-u-n-i-o N-o-u-n-i-o.
They were giving him--the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell
reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded,
and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan?
I said, of course I would.
Mr. JENNER. Who said that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The pilot.
I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun
to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then
George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't
go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I
go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt
you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded.
So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that
reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd,
I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course,
pathetic. Women don't even look like women.
Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Russian women, at the reception. The
Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even
good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in
some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because
I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole
tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was
with the captain, and he was very close--very good friend of Mikoyan.
We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was
speaking English. And then we came over to the plane.
Mr. JENNER. You went out to the airport?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To the airport, when he was already leaving,
after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain
to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane
standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan,
this is my friend Señora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and
said----
Mr. JENNER. You spoke in Russian?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you,
Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a
Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time.
And all of a sudden, I deliberately--it was sort of a prank. He almost
fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it
in Dallas to everybody.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that was purely an adventure?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, sure. It was just a prank, just for fun.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or
any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico--you had not
anticipated the presence of the Russian mission?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely.
George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this
exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there--I think
they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the
Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been
on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it--they just didn't
accept it, they didn't accept his proposal.
And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the
presidential pilot.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from
your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That must be November 1959.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in
Mexico City.
Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to Haiti?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to
Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly.
Mr. JENNER. You flew to Haiti?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of that visit to Haiti?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The main purpose was to rest, and another
purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father,
75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him
like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we
don't go now, we might never see him.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Michael Breitman. And he died within the next
year.
Mr. JENNER. But that was--that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit
this gentleman?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And to rest.
Mr. JENNER. From your long, arduous trip through Central America?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By boat?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By boat, by Lykes Line.
Mr. JENNER. And your harbor was what--St. Charles, or Lake Charles?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the
last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over
there, the Savages.
Mr. JENNER. And the Mitchells?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house,
stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and
we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car.
Mr. JENNER. Your friend----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Houston. We have quite a few friends in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period
when you met the Oswalds.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the
nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time.
Now, as I understand it, you met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the late summer.
Mr. JENNER. There was a small Russian colony?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony.
There are some odds-and-ends Russian people.
Mr. JENNER. I am using a reference to identify a more or less
heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common
interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had
been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian
people there--some that came in after the revolution, and there are
some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany.
Mr. JENNER. You are now telling me about this situation in Dallas, are
you not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to classify who was before and who
came in later.
Mr. JENNER. But you are telling me about people in Dallas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the
United States was, of course--Marina was, and I think there was another
one, Declan Ford.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a
dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and
so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was
Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice
fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage
broke up.
Mr. JENNER. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian
derivation. Some had come directly from Russia--that is, in the sense
that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Russia. They were prisoners, civil
prisoners.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her story is something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the
war ended, they met American boys, and married them.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't
know of anybody else.
Mr. JENNER. Then others had escaped Russia or Poland?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. For instance, one of them--she was never
even in Russia--that type of Russian colony. She was married to an
American man.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is a group that had common interests--interested
in each other?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all
criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further
apart. They were not exactly all friends--I will put it that way.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see--you had been there--well, you were off and on
commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956, 1957.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this
history, did you people--and I don't mean just you alone, but I am
talking about the whole group--become interested in them, seek to meet
them, become acquainted?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of
a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in
people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people
they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something--and none
of them were really--only Marina was--then we helped them.
But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or
wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you generally--were you advised normally in
advance that somebody new was coming?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for
months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl.
They were talking for a couple of months.
Mr. JENNER. Who?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we found out about her actually through, I
believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name.
Mr. JENNER. What about Max Clark?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort
Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very
active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity
things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he
even had a fund for them--the people would give money--because he gave
money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bouhe did give you money----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To pay for her dentist.
Mr. JENNER. And do you remember how much that was?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, it wasn't very much--maybe $20; something
like that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for
anything else with respect to the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were
wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming
to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about
it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know when they came.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been
in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before?
Mr. JENNER. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he
attempted to defect?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; nothing at all--in spite that it was in some
press somewhere--I believe it was printed.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw it. Never had no idea.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of
you--Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk,
Raigorodsky----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a character--Dymitruk was also imported
recently. I think after we were there.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean imported?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean he arrived--I call him imported. He was
really a sad sack.
Mr. JENNER. He was the husband of Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you about her.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But I know very little about them.
Mr. JENNER. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I
want to emphasize here is--if it is the truth--I don't want to put any
words in your mouth--that you had no advance notice that either of
these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them,
never heard anything?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. And was that generally true of all these people?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody
knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And,
actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know
that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot even tell. I would like to know,
myself, now, how it came about.
Mr. JENNER. They were brought to your attention?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My recollection is that he finally--we were
sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we
still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally--I don't
remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us
for the first time. That is how it happened.
Mr. JENNER. And this was in the late summer of 1962?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular
time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute
any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the
clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort
I would be glad to do.
Mr. JENNER. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and
your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for
a year we didn't make any money, on our trip.
Mr. JENNER. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the facts.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not enough to be charitable.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and
petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on
business, finances, is he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money.
I am the one--I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He
doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a
steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good
money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in.
He may have within a year two or three fantastic things--go to Ghana,
go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money.
But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he
learned when he has something to hold onto it.
Mr. JENNER. So there were periods when his financial situation was
good, so he was high?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we
were very fortunate before our trip--he had an assignment in Ghana, and
he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we
can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that
trip.
Mr. JENNER. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not
as affluent?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. But you folks were at no time wealthy people?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Real wealthy, no.
Mr. JENNER. You made----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could have been if I saved the money, but I
didn't.
Mr. JENNER. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to
assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly; none at all.
Mr. JENNER. But you were in a position that you could afford them time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And attention?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Not them--actually with Marina, because we
couldn't do much for Oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him,
and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had--I don't know who got
it--I think it was an agency that got him the job he had.
Mr. JENNER. At Leslie Welding?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in
a darkroom.
Mr. JENNER. That was later.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know the name of it.
Mr. JENNER. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you
first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home
or----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I really don't remember.
And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying
to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still
remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our
house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we
took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know.
Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the
baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone.
Mr. JENNER. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never entered their home in Fort Worth.
George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I
think, when we brought Marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because
he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere--there was a
tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something.
Mr. JENNER. Sears?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't
remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house.
That is what I saw. A wooden building.
Mr. JENNER. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely
starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you
know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had
would make anybody miserable to live with.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow?
Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable,
and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he
was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was
that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina.
Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My
daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't
have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody,
and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such
circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because
Marina was throwing it into his face.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And
she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things,
and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And
I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him,
while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her
what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for
him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked
overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and
when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running
around.
He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very
difficult personality.
And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive
attitude to him.
I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did,
he could have killed us.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife
physically. We saw her with a black eye once.
Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own
kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you
cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things
to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each
other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate,
and see, maybe you really don't love each other."
Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she
separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the
language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along
with Oswald's family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to identify your sources of information.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they
didn't get along well with their----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say through them, because maybe people
talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's
home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody
mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in
the morning.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is lazy. You see, there are people that
actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about
them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really
can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.
Mr. JENNER. Where? At your home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you--if I stay
with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning,
see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything.
She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same
thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her
teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the
same way--very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it--a young person.
Maybe she was ill. We talked about it--maybe we have just too much
energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active.
The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning
English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our
little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English--I bought
them in New York when I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning
English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. According to her Oswald objected, and he also
told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he
doesn't want to forget Russian.
But then we got onto Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was
his reason--not to let his wife learn English--because she was the only
person he could speak Russian to.
Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she
learned English, couldn't he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said,
"You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in
this country without the language, she cannot do anything."
He was strange in many, many ways.
But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little
violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your
wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.
Mr. JENNER. Please.
You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the
child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him
into doing it peacefully.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller.
Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put
the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how
nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary
until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or
3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife,
because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not
a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she
refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely.
And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe
for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. In October or November?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know.
Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think
it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide
whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each
other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless
to continue to live the way they were.
In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was
always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, Bouhe's
type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he is an older man.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your
husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the
personality.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both
Marina and Lee about their difficulties?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same
room.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as
to her dissatisfaction?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what?
Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied
with him?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell
you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak
so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by
it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she.
Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her.
She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay
enough attention to her.
Mr. JENNER. That was one reason?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes.
And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes
to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or
something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat
her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine.
She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes
to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their
main disagreements.
And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child.
He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just
changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the
child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child
makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to
pick the child up, Lee is after her--why is the baby crying? And the
baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her
or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She
had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just
couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same
time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.
Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat?
Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over
into those areas?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be
neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home
or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it,
because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you
make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am
sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will.
At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things
to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were
miserable, very, very poor.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your opinion of----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One thing I want to tell you.
When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took
her--the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little
apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University
Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs
something with the car to help them.
Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from
everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff--God knows
where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other
people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything
against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very
much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people
give her so many things. Maybe that is why.
Why did he live so far?
We were very mad about it, too.
I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak
Cliff to help them with this or that"--if she had to go to the doctor.
Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier
for me to help her.
He had some reasons to live far away.
I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was
everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the
way out.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me of her personality.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same
time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way
she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she
loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive
on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States.
That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she
felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to
come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big
houses and everything.
Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her?
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind
of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that
house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that
apartment house."
And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she
sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met.
And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much
influential in making them come back.
Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he
was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him.
Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had
been disappointed in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were
such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"
And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow."
He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen."
And I said, "How come you are back?"
He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for."
Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I
was looking for."
So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious,
and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard
way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was
wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about
paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the
first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them
to live. Those are the things.
And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that
made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot
of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly
to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good
qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe
he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I
don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved
in it.
But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and
she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.
Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us.
Mr. JENNER. She did?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever
speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it.
Because I could see----
Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot,
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't
mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.
What did she say to him?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget,
I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember
exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George,
having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you
are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.
And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your
impressions, but how you came by them.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think
it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we
saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once
overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very,
very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count
it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I
find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or
something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well.
He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and
good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.
So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people
that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and
your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind,
and Oswald respected your husband.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me.
And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd.
He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a
little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear
her dresses if we take her away from him.
I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that
is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he
sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all
right, he would not do it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you
related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money
so that she could live better?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint,
sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick
that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I
didn't know such things can happen to people, you know.
We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the
baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is
supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering--it has to
be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is
the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her.
This man. So we objected to that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you
formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term
"ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot,
reading, reading, reading.
Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will
hurt men's pride. That definitely was.
Mr. JENNER. Try and recall more of that.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think what else she said. Also,
she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her.
That was very important. Because--and I know--I told you the reasons
why he objected to that, which are understandable, also.
But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--I
remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the
phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other
plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you
don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told
that to me.
There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he
could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in
a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either--that type of a
person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like
that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.
You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their
hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to
do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of
charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those
people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him
after that. But Oswald didn't.
And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked
Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that
Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what.
He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that
Oswald was rude to people helping him.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your
presence?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In which way? Overall political, or any
particular incidents?
Mr. JENNER. Politics with a capital P. His views on government.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist
Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would
understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to
any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia,
because that was--oh, this is very important.
His objection--the things that he didn't like in Russia was those
horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that
you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive
people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to
go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he
was--according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or
belonging to anything.
It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he
was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets
or something, in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Passing them out?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. Because we never had----
Mr. JENNER. You were in Haiti by that time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to
visit them?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday
before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it,
I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it
was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for
the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Did you arrive there during the day?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was in the evening. I think we were
playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will
be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby.
And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And
I remember they gave us something to drink.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived there. Were they--had they retired for the
night?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they were halfway in bed already,
because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was
dark.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee came to the door?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or
Lee.
Mr. JENNER. They turned the light on. And where were they living then?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was their last apartment--not Elsbeth,
but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other
address I don't have. It is just around the corner.
Mr. JENNER. 214?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the address.
Mr. JENNER. Was it upstairs or downstairs?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big
tree growing right next to the terrace.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little
fact could be important.
Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that
occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came
to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and
your husband went in the home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat
down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing
me the house--that is why I said it looks like it was the first time,
because why would she show me the house if I had been there before?
Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the
gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't
hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that
you saw?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make
believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is
this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it,
because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was.
This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just
had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because
when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the
closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I
gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it
was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my
father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have
indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen
a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with
the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt
action, but I would not know.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was
something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or
something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth,
plain rifle. This is for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you
concerned about it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a
rifle?
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said,
"Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived
in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves
and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I
personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to
shoot at a target, target shooting.
Mr. JENNER. Skeet?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is
going in a public park and shooting leaves?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with
her, and that was his amusement.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the
park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go
to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't
find anything strange.
Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement
parks?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Little .22?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking
around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this,
shooting leaves?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had
no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or
just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?
Mr. JENNER. 6.5.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with
us.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your
acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun,
in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a
sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so
short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she
told me. And you know what happened after that.
Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy
lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.
Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was
shooting it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other
part of the house?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two
rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they
have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were
sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet?
A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his
sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He
said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started
laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on,
according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of
Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any
change----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know.
Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me
his. You noticed nothing?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything.
Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of
expression?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at
him.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace.
And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not.
And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by
the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The
baby was asleep.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Never saw them?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was
Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963?
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left.
Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In
any event, it was the day before Easter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.
Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few
weeks, a couple of weeks?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York,
Washington, Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already
gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood
that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't
get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans,
with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't
remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when
there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of
Everett Glover?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's
friends.
Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film,
and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed
that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had
still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple
of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a
woman, Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was
sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to
American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he
mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and
it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was her name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good,
because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in
Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on
from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't
remember. I really don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your
home, isn't that correct?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we
liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful
person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to
somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have
any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to
advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too
much problems with our own children.
Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own
children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not
my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over
and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning
this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this
contract. We had our heads busy with other things.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and
the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life
of Indians--or----
Mr. JENNER. About your trip?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all.
Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it
was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I
don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was
there.
There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that
worked with Everett.
Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe,
I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This
time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we
showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house
because they were interested in that.
Mr. JENNER. What are their names?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a
university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I
am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when
the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got
them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we
came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing
it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for
dinner, and then we brought them over.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have
indicated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of?
Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have
indicated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party
in December of 1963 at the Fords?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date.
Mr. JENNER. 1963.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party,
and we attended it.
Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in
December? Was it in the holiday period?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it
December or was it early January, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this
Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you
know about Yaeko?
Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.
Mr. JENNER. What was her last name?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always
called her Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Where was she working?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time
or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the
family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was
wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family.
I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to
invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her.
Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.
Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese
special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas
Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives
exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and
she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But
then we heard that she was in New York.
To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was
something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you
know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she
was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating
around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing
happened, too, with that Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically
spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of
course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was
furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what
I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was
very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's
put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a
house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from
Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by
whom Yaeko was employed?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily.
Mr. JENNER. How?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that
actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very
well.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about
Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time.
Henry Rogatz, also in----
Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my
phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have
Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.
Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on?
Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address
and telephone number, if you have it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe
somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when
we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Voshinin?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more
than anybody.
Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He
paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the
slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it.
We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now.
That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only
talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what
she told me. He really liked Yaeko.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight
almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we
weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted
Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas
in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her
into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby
because the baby would wake up.
I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have
another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we
went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we
took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up
the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.
Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you,
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That
was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in
December of 1963 you were in Haiti.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already.
Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home
that evening?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we
had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor
woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby
was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee,
because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know.
That is why we were so sorry for them.
I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried
to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little
boy, too.
Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Alexandra?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She
thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she
doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy,
also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.
Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was
complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with
Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after,
and I think they helped them to move, even.
Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a
good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good,
so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's
prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry
for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with.
I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some
and maybe the kids consoled them after.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she
sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything
come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to
Russia?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all.
Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't
ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the
whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than
we ever knew about them.
Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press,
as well.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss,
Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what?
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the letter----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband show you that letter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Before he sent it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show
to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything
or if he wants to add anything to mine.
Mr. JENNER. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14
being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to
Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter
was mailed.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think I really should read it.
Do you want me to read it again?
Mr. JENNER. You have read that exhibit?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read
this, too?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently
last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and
especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean
by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him
because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the
killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather
not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we
help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him
in the same feeling.
Mr. JENNER. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor
Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband.
She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, all that is true; isn't it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones.
The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know
how to feed that baby.
Mr. JENNER. She did not?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby
was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible,
like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I
insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was
9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection,
didn't have anything.
I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding
him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in
the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a
balanced diet.
I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to
raise a baby correctly."
She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor,
putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's
mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all
that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the
clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.
Mr. JENNER. Marina's teeth?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because
they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the
baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was
trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that
could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do
for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She just didn't know any better, you know.
That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina
doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling
about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them
all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work,
sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested
in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She
wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for
anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything
like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely
opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was
absolutely too--I never thought that. I thought they were very, very
proper and very----
Mr. JENNER. What did she say about how they behaved?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild
parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth
would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian
companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad
ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts,
you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or
in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy
interests.
And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite
of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But
somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It
was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all
are, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in
Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very
little, because he was always working or something. One evening I
talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and
the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and
we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and
she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I
was really sorry for her.
I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and
she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you
know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on
her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You
cannot be very angry with her.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what
kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You
have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that
expression I assume they were parties of----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never
occur to us.
Mr. JENNER. In this country?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In this country. I would say China, too. I was
brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth
never acted like that at all.
So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely
degeneration.
Mr. JENNER. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In bringing up the child?
Mr. JENNER. In bringing up this child?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. That she fed her sugar and water?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Milk and sugar.
Mr. JENNER. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with
the child?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The child was more or less clean, but with this
pacifier thing.
Mr. JENNER. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up
and stick it in the baby's mouth?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and
then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected.
Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected
teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense,
didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make
any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the
medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any other incidents?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With Marina?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recollect of anything of any importance.
Mr. JENNER. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her
honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests
were involved, let us say?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like
about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her.
According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was
asked--I mean what swayed me about her personality----
Mr. JENNER. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers
afterward. I want your opinion.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really
impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious,
promiscuous, you know.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Promiscuous.
Mr. JENNER. She was promiscuous but not malicious?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you
know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the
United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She
wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all
these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me
when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor
apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.
Mr. JENNER. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and
these gadgets and a refrigerator?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he,
suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for
very little money.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know
if he even drives a car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive a car?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence
indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car
only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would
be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I
have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.
Mr. JENNER. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the
dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next
time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.
Mr. JENNER. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did.
Mr. JENNER. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know her very little, but I recall her. I
think it is Lydia, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in
Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.
Mr. JENNER. Some money had to be paid in that connection?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you got that money from George Bouhe?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, and he told me there would be
the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some
funds for them.
Mr. JENNER. That if there was need for additional money----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time
last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove
to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away
from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I
did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian
refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to
her husband." Is that correct?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the Mellers?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a
week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months.
We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation,
go through all that trying to do something for them and then she
dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we
were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if
we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let
them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.
Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which
Marina left Lee and went with some others?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even remember that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them,
too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we
hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden
I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or
something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a
few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only
connection we had.
Mr. JENNER. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes
occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy
for success and the late President was successful in so many domains
and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady
characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband
discuss that sentence with you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this
letter.
Mr. JENNER. But you read the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I read the letter.
The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be
that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you
know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything
that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he
was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful
President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so
it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you
know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression of the man?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, never at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make
any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and
whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely
exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that
would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that
is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable
discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy,
no.
Mr. JENNER. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We read it in the papers after.
Mr. JENNER. I want to keep separated here what you learned about
afterwards.
Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.
Mr. JENNER. That you had any contact with the Oswalds?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever
mentioned?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was his boyhood ever mentioned?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His boyhood?
Mr. JENNER. Boyhood.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Never, never.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't
lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't
remember discussing that.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in
the service, and what he had done?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't recall any conversation.
Mr. JENNER. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being
a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success,
that was rationalization afterwards?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions
should have been taken."
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. I agree.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with your husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but
better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on
that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should
have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they
had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without
that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.
Mr. JENNER. So this remark in the letter is based on that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On that, exactly.
Mr. JENNER. That is as far as you are concerned?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as we are concerned, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband may have had something else in mind?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did
he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right
wing, extreme right wing?
Mr. JENNER. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably
did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans
are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like
what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to
segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too
forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know.
And so there was a lot of----
Mr. JENNER. Animosity?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they
didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still
Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible
thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. JENNER. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope
that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not
suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not
affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt,
notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last
sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We talk about it very often.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In
fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his
office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please
mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I
wouldn't even see the letter.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he
prepared the letter?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was
going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just
wrote the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more
than once?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I took her twice there, I believe.
They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed
me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It
gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you
know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be
a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn
English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.
Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the
Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could
be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to
meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I
am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said,
"For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian
and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you
still didn't meet the Oswalds?"
She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason."
I said, "What are the reasons?"
She said, "I cannot tell you."
Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his
personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was
very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you gave them these language records?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A phonograph.
Mr. JENNER. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money
that you had received from George Bouhe?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't give them any of your own money?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not that I ever recall.
Mr. JENNER. You brought them gifts?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just tiny little things.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You gave her some clothing.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already.
By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes
was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some
slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have
it altered for her and she didn't need to.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home
overnight you gave her----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like
that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance
in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever
discuss his finances with you and your husband?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much
about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay
out the debt.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the
United States and its form of government?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. He objected to the way the integration
question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to segregation, was he?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He
wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just
American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we
have.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his
views were.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is completely in accord with President
Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly
sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had
something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in
which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions.
Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off
the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed
to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this
investigation?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the only thing, the question I actually
brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking
it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just
doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never heard of him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in
the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That he operated?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself,
disposed to attend that sort of thing.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack
Rubinstein?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall
ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.
Mr. JENNER. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as
drinking is concerned?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean apart from newsreels?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. TV? No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated
that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of
Jack Ruby's places?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching
for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good
intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all
there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put
it that way.
Mr. JENNER. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the
newspapers?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the only thing I know.
Mr. JENNER. And not on any actual facts you know anything about?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; and, also based on the natural
deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any
sense. The whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple.
How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely
stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the
march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a
little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you
the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any
sense.
No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he
would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it
yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up
for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't
have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.
What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit
it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?
It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the
garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a
garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.
Mr. JENNER. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday,
that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first
time?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That you knew anything about a rifle?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think
might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I
would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only
person that was, you know, what I mean--maybe it was just because
she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they
discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was
attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with
Marines staying in the east.
Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling--Marina was telling me
the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so
on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald had told her that?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated
that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take
her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him,
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. She needled him?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be
completely imagination, you know, all of these things.
Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did you say?
Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your
deposition?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from
Mr. Rankin?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did.
Mr. JENNER. General counsel of the Commission?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint
Resolution 137?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was
created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's----
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; two copies.
Mr. JENNER. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And fixing its responsibilities?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed
that is what it was.
Mr. JENNER. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules
under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I probably did.
Mr. JENNER. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the
Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you
and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately
has led to this.
Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know
Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in
Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four
people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone,
this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong
with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That
is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband
told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody
wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't
know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people
we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very
badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind
to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks
from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too
timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in
driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his
little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden
to see your child."
The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning
the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did
something very big.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is what is happening, you understand.
Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly
there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go
to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child.
So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow--at the
moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project
because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the
relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because
he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and
mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American
people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is
doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.
The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever
possible and he is really doing something constructive.
By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole
thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if
they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet
way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George,
you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a
little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners,
let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.
For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and
when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and
he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you
like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons,
because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking
people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that
is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The
minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That
is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?
Mr. JENNER. We will see what we can do about it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in
conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we
should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is
not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the
character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That
leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able
to see the little girl.
We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by
it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"
He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything
we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a
pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt
like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a
rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it
will come up.
For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't
like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in
2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the
climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.
Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman
or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very
anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti,
let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's
little girl.
If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want the addresses?
Mr. JENNER. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is
that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But
you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.
Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his
deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the
necessity of reading it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little
things to do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sure, because if something was not just
exactly so, I don't think it really matters.
Mr. JENNER. These men are quite competent and they take down everything.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is wonderful.
Mr. JENNER. Then you will waive your reading and signing?
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to
be signed?
Mr. JENNER. No; not unless you insist on it.
Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the
other.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very, very much.
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March
21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the
President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by
deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's
testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day
yesterday.[1]
[1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the
Commission appears in another volume, and can be found
by consulting the Index.
I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine
were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.
The REPORTER. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs.
Paine.
Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In 1932.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when?
Mrs. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough
to get out of the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?
Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey.
Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there
before, I remember.
Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from
Freehold, N.J.
Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York
then moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in
Columbus?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College
at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?
Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.
Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of
Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a
portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work
in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps
to obtain these positions.
Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit?
Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the
academic work and credit from your job placements.
Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the
Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker
faith?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't.
Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College?
Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education.
Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in
connection with that major in your cooperative work?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in
recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my
job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools
and group work.
Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in
group work ever since?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least?
Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work,
yes, in the jobs I have sought.
Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith,
hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch
College?
Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined
in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I
became a member.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a----
Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers
and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in
Columbus from that time on.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates
that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you
were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at
Indianapolis, Ind.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of
your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big
Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during
the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American
Friends Service Committee?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that would have been the following summer.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?
Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American
Friends Service Committee work camp.
Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October,
apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952
you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community
School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement
from Antioch College.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December
1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in
the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly
stated?
Mrs. PAINE. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March
1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township
School, Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you teach?
Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow
learning class.
Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch;
was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes
indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is
that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it
was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a
capital F? Forgive my interruption.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World
Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at
Pendle Hill.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is
a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of
Friends, Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?
Mrs. PAINE. Two words.
Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a
delegate to--state it again.
Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.
Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England?
Mrs. PAINE. England.
Mr. JENNER. And you also attended----
Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference.
Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were
associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young
Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may
say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the
Golden Age Club. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that
took the most time.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You
say there were three.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already
said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge,
recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for
members' use.
Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background
if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your
work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club
first. They were a group of what people?
Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60,
all of them Jewish.
Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all
were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them
had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.
Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business
meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had
been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke
it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook
to teach a few.
Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this
group?
Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and
club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which
sponsored the club.
Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided
change?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very
interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader
I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and
help them in communication between one another and specifically in
communication between the club and the organization, the Y.
Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States
of America, as a group?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their
families here.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the next?
Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a
week.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that
they were a group of young adults?
Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly
needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to
date and meet.
Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or
Poland?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here.
Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would
you indicate what that was?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in
the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they
needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple
party.
Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups,
dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it
was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more
in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the
visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either
the Golden Age or the young adults group?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They
could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This
required the least from me in the leadership.
Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest,
or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had
already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are
similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business
meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.
Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time
had you taken a course in Russian at the university?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't.
Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone
through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study
of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your
pre-Antioch College period of activity.
Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at
least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name;
Wolfe Truck Farm.
Mr. JENNER. This was a private----
Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact
that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?
Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus,
Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a
time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.
Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time.
Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school.
Mr. JENNER. That was high school?
Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we
felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because
so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the
Friends Vacation Bible School?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to
Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with
a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in
Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and
read stories.
Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in
there?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the
Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.
Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had
enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in
Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts
and----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?
Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them.
Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical
education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. University.
Mr. JENNER. University, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended.
Mr. JENNER. That was your high school?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school.
Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical
education activities?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor
to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the
particular group was?
Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of
underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and
no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families.
This was basically sponsored by the families.
Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had
worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group
meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and
craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories.
Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children?
Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a
helper who was 13.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended
in the----
Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.
Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the
fall term.
Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do
some work in 1956?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I
may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael
R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School.
Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at
Germantown Friends School?
Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and
1957 to 1958 school years.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work?
Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher
for grades 1 through 6.
Mr. JENNER. During all of that period?
Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with
Pendle Hill?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends
conferences over this period of years, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of
the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends
Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your
testimony, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August.
Mr. JENNER. August 1955?
Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started.
Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned
the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active
in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions
between the east and the west?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that
particular interest.
Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen
pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to
see and observe America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough
yesterday.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian
language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language
arose about that time?
Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin
until later.
Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of
a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond,
Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at
Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that----
Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did
attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you?
Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends
Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham
College, but they were not conferences.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number
of them.
Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest
by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and
young people in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee
meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in
Wallingford, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?
Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my
information is so limited.
Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind.
Mr. JENNER. It does not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little
garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made
reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it.
Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were
interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department,
as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over
here?
Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from
the American Friends Service Committee, also.
Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you
with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three
Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended
one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them,
either before or after?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any
native Russian people other than these three Russian students and
Marina, that is to say up to November 22----
Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were
some who had been born in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was
born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in
very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to
Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and
talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any
other contacts they were of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had
with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native
Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated
the character of your contacts with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your
contact with these people had been largely either in connection with
your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and
your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the
study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and
then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native
Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested
in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury
College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively
whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my
contacts.
Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second
one, was Nina Atarina?
Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.
Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher?
Mrs. PAINE. She is.
Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8
months?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something
about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests?
Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.
Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My
mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin
College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the
Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital,
and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice
training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance
Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of
the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe.
Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that
include any Iron Curtain countries?
Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State
University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies
with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the
company most of the time.
Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching?
Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance.
Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs.
Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high
school days. Was your father an insurance----
Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then.
Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told
about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the
activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I
was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is
called the cooperative movement.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand----
Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In
other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine
the management of the business, and share in the profits.
Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers
cooperative?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative
movement is?
Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I
am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were
interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is
an active political interest in a political party? For example, the
Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to
the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and
recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your
interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.
Mrs. PAINE. That is a correct statement.
Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of
their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of
modest means?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more
money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.
Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this,
frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and
yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the
reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine,
that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think
very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with
the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the
pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the
giving of yourself to others in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too
much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general
connection?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to
help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is
not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best
possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best
life is.
Mr. JENNER. Have you finished?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping
anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that
can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from
something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do.
But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.
Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the
first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to
whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time
of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of
refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little
bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your
attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to
your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"
She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he
came for a weekend I told him about it."
Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to
arrive--that is November 1.
Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"
She said: "Yes."
She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They
left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they
wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want
to wait."
Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection
stands as I told it yesterday.
Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.
Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of
having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be
available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.
Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit
there was only one agent rather than two.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, also.
Mr. JENNER. That is your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection
doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was
advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected
that particular weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's
testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't; no.
Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have.
Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly
that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr.
Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to
see Lee Oswald if he wished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he
was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there
any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging
in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the
Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an
inquiry. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said
through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the
Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me.
Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on
the 5th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1
interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a
conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it
not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course.
Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that?
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity
of some kind.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And you never did?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties
Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Or your sister?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League
of Women Voters?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you
say you were rather close to your father and your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to
my mother.
Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister,
you have a close relation with your folks?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and
possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer
to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship,
meaning I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your
sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are
interested in each other's activities?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence?
Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and
they in you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with
each other?
Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good
letterwriters.
Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you
are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.
Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the
years; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do
it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence
and also copies of your letters, were you not?
Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification,
three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in
college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes
than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?
Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation
leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people
to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?
Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457,
458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited
the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes
other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other
source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your
handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be
letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister
are likewise the originals of those letters?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from
you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances
others are copies of letters that you dispatched?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please.
We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee
Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them,
and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.
Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash.
Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about
expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to
Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking
him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific
recollection is as to these two times.
Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he
went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in
one. That was in the spring.
Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April.
Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have
already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at
any time?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and
temperature.
Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this
purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas,
or in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used
while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items
for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no
groceries.
Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself,
for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one
instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June,
which was----
Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of
the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of
November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not
certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing
that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring,
late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own
expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large
portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been
Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know
they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a
thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that
Marina was afforded very limited funds?
Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression.
Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would
be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and
Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that
neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed
at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean
things with him on Monday.
Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for
laundry?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is,
any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?
Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having
been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.
Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber
who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or
Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that
that was not Lee who did that.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or
having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in
Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that
is playing records, songs?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such.
Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera
film?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she
took some pictures of him?
Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the
fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.
Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your
presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot
camera or other type of camera to take pictures?
Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he
held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and
said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different
size.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had
taken?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or people?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any
fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?
Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of
money.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given
by Lee to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's
Market to purchase some groceries?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina
and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think
this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the
store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to
walk--I am quite certain----
Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive--about 10 blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the----
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to----
Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are
not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of
his meals there at your home?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always
had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a
cup of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or
packed some food for him to take.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in
September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his
residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from
a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how
much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three
places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between
you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their
finances and finances generally?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you
wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for
identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and
Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.
(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September
30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it
this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter.
Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the
letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the
baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of
work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment
compensation, not much."
Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?
Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it
followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum
or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It does?
Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me
the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite
forgotten that sum.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will
send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both
to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February
to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said
she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation
that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period
of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written
in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as
possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to
stay if that was necessary.
Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to
convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and
that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be
at your home for any considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that.
Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing
employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning
Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send
for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963,
and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would
you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the
middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that
Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps
through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he
has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with
the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being
deferred?
Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that
he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and,
of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from
childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the
baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care
of the house, and with June.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into
the following year?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. 1964?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular
letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in
February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that
Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret?
In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible
difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting
your mother.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that
Marina might still be with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an
indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after
February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear
to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come
that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all
that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would
not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene,
an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they
had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when
he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that
Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else,
that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr. JENNER. State?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on
his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not
continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might
not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have
described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary,
did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in
mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some
other manner or means?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a
figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon
which I could judge, was false.
Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available
appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context
of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three
letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has
identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her
mother.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had
actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the
Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with
you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his
family?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If
so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and
places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing
she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth.
Marina also talked to me----
Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or
advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he
didn't wish her----
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his
family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and
Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been
able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked
both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same
company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think
in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early
November that he had been----
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the
Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best
of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert?
Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November
22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there
being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise
that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was
avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?
Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression----
Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact
with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was
employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was
using it to receive communications?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had
anything been said about his renting a post office box?
Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we
had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main
post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a
post office box there. But that was----
Mr. JENNER. What date was this?
Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think----
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main
post office.
Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been
was that day.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail?
Mrs. PAINE. Magazines, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the
service?
Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said
Marine Corps on them.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in
the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any
of his experiences in the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early
November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had
had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his
past life, for instance his having been in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had
related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?
Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was
unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley
Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home,
accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in
January-February, I don't know just when.
Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February?
Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us?
Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known her?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York
Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from
her.
Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed.
Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going
over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the
School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place
where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back
to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I
answered whatever she wanted to know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin
the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole
thing back to her.
Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with
Mrs. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered
one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four--no; perhaps
as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and
some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of
people. We have also had some communication by telephone.
Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and
Tuesday?
Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them.
Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of
Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your
responses? Telephone, or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home
I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he
is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say
that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say
that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a
public conclusion that he was guilty.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to
your door?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been
limited to what you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or
crusade or whatever it may be?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer
questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I
know.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's
personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your
overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us
if you would. Start at the beginning.
Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to
send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want
to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly
didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked
unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on
really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening
of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the
afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so
as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had
directly with him.
And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout
my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and
September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to
during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.
When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I
was impressed quite differently.
He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to
my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my
home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the
baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be
happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with
a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that
evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly
in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to
see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and
then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.
And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my
mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he
could.
Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on
the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one
letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he
tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children,
that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful
of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was
because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings
of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to
Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought
someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him.
Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I
think while----
Mr. JENNER. His only human contact?
Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and
while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw,
he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have
reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so
that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip
during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time----
Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who
wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to
achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and
raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with
people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.
Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically----
Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children?
Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the
record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned
that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in
September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I
felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at
this initial party when I first met him.
Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out
weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving,
wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor
much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I
never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent
person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent
hostility towards an individual.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt
frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching
were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were
unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the
concept in which he regarded himself?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that----
Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt
successful.
As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were.
But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he
had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should
achieve in the world.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective
or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid
social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within
was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a
book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a
meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and
I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the
people there.
And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where
he was working at this last place.
Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little
things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety
valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They
came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an
emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that
what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities
of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.
Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such,
but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the
assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as
a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in
the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show
feeling.
Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was
something that you could understand?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something----
Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. As a child.
I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making
friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was
guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.
Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt?
Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.
Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted?
Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then
he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this
feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked
her? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted
to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered
by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did
have very personal talks about our respective marriages.
But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full
bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish
to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her
devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little
girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother,
and of raising these children.
I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to
try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good
marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do
her best for it.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along,
of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a
position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie,
almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other
words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and
stage in life.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31.
Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what?
Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and
our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.
Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?
Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having
met him only at the police station and said very little to him there,
and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick
up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination.
That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have
have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you
really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you
have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my
husband.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr.
Martin are.
Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr.
Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she
lived at his home for some time after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him?
Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the
door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him
before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come
with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been
on that occasion.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him
a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for
Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?
Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened
them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to
Marina, this sort of thing.
And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the
house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when
Robert had come to get the remaining items.
From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained
the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time,
and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home
it was not my particular intention to see her.
I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me
some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and
with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I
wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.
I came--perhaps I should interrupt here.
Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really
best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these
are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be
better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.
Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have
any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at
least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last
time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d
to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the
evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call
from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the
assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.
Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what?
Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home.
I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home
now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this
terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for
Look Magazine.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good
thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial
remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me
in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with
Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs.
Ford was the first time she and I had talked.
Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's
number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs.
Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself
to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that
this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more
fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to
this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning
you."
Mr. JENNER. They don't know?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they"
referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to
friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling
that in time she would certainly contact me again.
Mr. JENNER. Has she?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on
it.
Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't
suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. May I see it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for
you.
The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked
me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't
feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship
had ended so badly.
Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?
Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt
at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went
out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife
what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to
express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was
being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the
Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with
her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where
she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that
occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced
that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am
going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of
this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have
reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death.
And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive
her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted
to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any
animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to
convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal
things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to
do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and
regards you well and would be in contact with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would
have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became
uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't
erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue
to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or
what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything
of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it
appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already
been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a
very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer
than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I
just don't know.
Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home
in Richardson, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape
recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text
onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and
to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad
to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone
wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she
called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice
if Marina made the recording, since Marina----
Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she
suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go
from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course,
I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it
involved making a recording that night.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night?
Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at
Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me----
Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the
entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her
furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me
when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite
accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to
have a home of her own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your
immediate objective of having a recording?
Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording,
also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina
really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.
Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was
friendly or at least that she was not averse?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I
might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by
making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my
own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.
Mr. JENNER. She has?
Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.
Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry
with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had
advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had
understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that
this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having
Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie
as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was
relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr.
Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had
delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry?
Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of
men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to
me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all
his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very
detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.
Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being
done?
Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had
signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone
else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he
told me, no, she had not delegated that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected
from her friends, and that had no one----
Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends?
Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected
from?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to
me.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an
earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who
spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or
the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was
concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to
Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said----
Mr. JENNER. She said----
Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I
knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on
the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of
attorney.
Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with
Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed
that? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a
brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes
that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone
perfectly free to say anything we wanted.
Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit
with Marina pleasant?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period
you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt
about you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the
strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the
events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask
directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with
that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs.
Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and
Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my
profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she
has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I
don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that
there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a
simple relationship.
Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word,
renewing, it may not be the right word.
Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct
break.
Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of
that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked
with her face to face?
Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do
some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was
going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going
to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to
Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina
implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she
will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart
for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person.
This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom
I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She
has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some
of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a
good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I
was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe,
yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he
came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely
fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present
a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion,
possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be
unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence
and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of
an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and
state domination.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what
she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating
the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by
the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact
that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that
she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?
Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions.
Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.
Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that
until I read it in the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the
paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with
Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many,
many of them.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or
desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United
States?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several
occasions that she----
Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now.
Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She
expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to
raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English
and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she
entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June
maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only
learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian,
thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her
expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any
particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.
Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of
more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of
Spanish, but it is completely gone now.
Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have
the opportunity.
Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on
your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like
to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry
on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke--that is your
brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?
Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar
itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. February?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written
at the time and some were put in later.
Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please.
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m.,
Minsk. That was written in later.
Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year
in there?
Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year?
Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962.
Mr. JENNER. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February
that has relation to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5"
crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure
when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned
later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this
page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that
says, "Everett's?"
Mr. JENNER. Entered where?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this----
Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the
upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the
upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed
by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after.
Mr. JENNER. After?
Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on
March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to
say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the
calendar.
Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read?
Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought
someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date,
and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was
off by a month as to what day it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October?
Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November.
Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23?
Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23.
Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been
November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on
the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise
the date you made an entry?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th.
Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name
until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey
and his initial was H?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date.
Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time--it happens to be also on
March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had
scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred
to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."
Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any others?
Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the
calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday,
April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above
the word "dinner." That has been testified to.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on----
Mr. JENNER. An entry?
Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name
appears, this time written in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April
with an arrow.
Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again?
Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which
would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.
Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting,
picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on
the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words
"Lee and Marina."
Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds----
Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs?
Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee
Wedding Anniversary two years ago."
Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?
Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the
fall.
Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar
referring to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take May.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May
1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This
recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we
saw the movie War and Peace.
Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry----
Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds.
Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New
Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the
Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please.
Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.
Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.
Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday."
This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that
her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the
right date, and that is all.
Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any
entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for
September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?
Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans
to go back to----
Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event.
Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O."
meaning New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made?
Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back.
Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards?
Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come
back?
Mrs. PAINE. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2.
Could you finish this calendar?
Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963.
There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that
has been referred to in testimony previously.
Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland
Hospital for the birth of her child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee
birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."
Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland
Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall,
when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L
start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down
after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start
working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work
start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be
Parkland. I would be certain it was.
Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the
occurrence of the events they seek to record?
Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made
after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the
same day that he received the acceptance.
Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that
corrected entry?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many
people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary
sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following
by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th
that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one
word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41
p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."
Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That
means exactly what it says.
Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered
contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after.
Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it
sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and
sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas
"Junie" she had a clinic appointment.
Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my
testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other
than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a
doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the
day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means
that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.
Mr. JENNER. What day is this?
Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November.
Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty
recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he
wasn't out.
Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November
1.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or
come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection.
Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it
means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.
Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind
you that she had a dental appointment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already
referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until
about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at
the Fifth Street address at my home.
Mr. JENNER. What date is this?
Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the
morning.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what
home means.
He was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m.
June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB
clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed
to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test"
and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.
In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November,
"1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I
would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was
changed.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?
Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin
to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had
X-rays taken.
Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?
Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Have you identified all three entries now?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental
clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.
There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar."
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn?
Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my
daughter to which I have testified.
There is also in pencil----
Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home.
Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it
is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month
that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or
next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina.
This brings us to December.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent
curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that
visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the
purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?
Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on
that score?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first
mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth
control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go
with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic
to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further
conceptions if she wished to.
Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just
casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability
of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall,
that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her
own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as
they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size
family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and
Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large
family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and
it is difficult to support a very large family.
Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting
or session, visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was?
Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of
the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December.
There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time,
and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these
appointments was kept.
There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon."
The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for
inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already
mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I
might have skipped that.
Mr. JENNER. I think you did.
Mrs. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."
Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?
Mrs. PAINE. June.
Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well?
Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should
come in about four weeks.
Mr. JENNER. That Marina should?
Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby.
Mr. JENNER. The baby June?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the
first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should
be older before giving her the first inoculation.
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring
the baby for the first time to that clinic?
Of course, that never took place.
Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change
the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving
at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation
was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we
decided to maintain that clinic.
Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been
discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an
expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the
1st of the year?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and
this just adds to that indication.
Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to
the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband,
joining him in Dallas.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. To live with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute.
No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit,
followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the
TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB
children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she
was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on
November 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with
that an entry on December 5, 1963----
Mrs. PAINE. December 3.
Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds
of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her
husband by the first of the year.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that.
Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in
Irving----
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall,
though they might have records of it.
Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really----
Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after
the baby was born.
Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there
was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had
been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and
she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in
Irving.
Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street
Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I
discussed where it would be best for her to have her----
Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care?
Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on----
Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to
just continue in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Because----
Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Return to the record.
Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I
don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write
down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic
where you go if a child is ailing.
Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned
of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building
to the TB clinic.
Oh, no; I recall now why we went.
At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of
October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial
Clinic.
Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June
has--I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except
that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that
collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy.
Mr. JENNER. It was on Marina's?
Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby
clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this
connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went
for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my
calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary
for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more
forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then
get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her
children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that
was done.
My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th
of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final
notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe
I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum
check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health,
too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret
Service. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge,
have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your
acquaintance with them?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why?
Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this
arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well
before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the
Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was
concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether
or not they could pay for it.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which
sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.
(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission
Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that
what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page,
and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the
Oswalds?
The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover,
and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the
entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the
address book.
Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page,
the left and right hand.
Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance.
Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is
employed?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand.
Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER. I am what?
Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.
Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of
the B page, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met
both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that?
Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first
page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the
Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page
of the D page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first
page of the D page.
Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first
page of the E page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there.
Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of
the E page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the
F page.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents
Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer
trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I
wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she
did not understand me. And I heard other people--there is a book store
where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and
had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And----
Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before?
Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?
Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this
incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't
know English fluently to get a job--if there were a Russian-speaking
community, where Russian could be used. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G
page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G
page.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the
name of her son-in-law appears here.
Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is?
Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov.
Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has
appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing else?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there.
Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to
that in your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an
address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will
help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to
it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without
that service it will be neither delivered or returned.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with
any of your association with the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have
their address.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.
Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian
student appears here, Bill Hootkins.
Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number----
Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page.
Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two
pages--the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite
page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any
entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?
Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my
relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and
that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.
Mr. JENNER. Next would be--there are some empty pages. We better record
that fact. The reverse side----
Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your
address book.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages
that have some entries on them, were not photostated.
Mrs. PAINE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the
picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to
the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top
of the list of letters.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here.
Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top
letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are
entries also. Look at both pages, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret.
Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New
Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their
address or their name correct during the summer.
Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans
that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number,
and you made an entry in your address book?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in
testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College,
summer Russian school.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the
sheet, the top letter of which is M.
Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same
person--Helen Mamikonian.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which
is N.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have
testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not,
heretofore?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is
the letter P.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the
Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made
because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their
clinic and hospital, for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which
is Q.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R.
Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.
Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors?
Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which
refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in
testimony--that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.
Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled
F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page
is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some
strange reason is also S. It is the opposite----
Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list
the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known
from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was
chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of
the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top
letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page
to the left of that.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as
U.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here.
Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.
Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.
Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as
testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the
Youngs?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries.
Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my
relatives.
Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely?
Mrs. PAINE. That is.
Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles
Morris--those are your in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.
Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?
Mrs. PAINE. Father.
Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband,
Michael Ralph Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your
husband, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your
reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your
reflections on her personality generally, and her character and
integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?
Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to
me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had.
She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other
Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word
I didn't understand.
She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help
around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking,
unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I
did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare
meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are
many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.
She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person.
But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn
to pronounce--to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider
that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I
think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself
that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did
not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up
enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she
could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified
to this.
I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did--I
should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages,
as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of
this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and
guarded her own personal privacy.
She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to
me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times
that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in
Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she
enjoyed.
She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and
when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for
now as a young mother.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something
out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America
while she was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America.
I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that
she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity,
willingness to come to America?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had
married Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly
divorced from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's
personality, her character, her integrity.
Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective
beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations
of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran,
that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this
faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places
as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were
something to it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward
religion as negative or positive?
Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference,
except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this
country?
Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me
in March of 1963--one of the first times I went to see her at their
apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for
June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form.
I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony
without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at
that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't
tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal
certificate, or refer to it freely.
Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise
occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people
who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young
Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and
attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much
the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this
paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing
many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech
by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And
she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed
interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always
turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion----
Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really
expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I
can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years
before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia
originating in America, in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the
United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and
live in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling
in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she
commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and
how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time
prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire,
attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with
regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and
then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of
course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.
Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think
you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar
as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a
woman.
Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I
have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my
modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different
sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a
particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess
that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that
feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.
Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it
was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked
me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both
because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language.
And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly
financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully
convinced her.
Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or
add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether
Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have
been?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't
exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have
knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different
from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on
the evening of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station.
Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police
station?
Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a
little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters,
and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit,
standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a
spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her
voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or
most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through
translation from Lee, and that she thought----
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something
about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about
them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was
said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought
that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would
have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such
indication of dislike from Lee to her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why?
Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it.
Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to
relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her
groping as to why her husband committed this act?
Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive
way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the
same way she told me that----
Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how
could he have said these things or called her attention to these things
with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not
understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband,
because of this, could not have assassinated the President?
Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not
concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting
to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She
also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had
said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she
could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of
hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Hurt what?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about
it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of
caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with
her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could
he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which
would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in
the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and
hurt, rather than defense.
Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in
June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine
Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter,
you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your
class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in
which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of
Russian. Do you recall such a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I
wrote it.
Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of
languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Socially?
Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were
recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others
who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen
pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?
Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in
Russian exchange."
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual
skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference
in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word
"calling" in the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study
of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very
words--intellectual decision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.
Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual
decision.
Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October
1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those
back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what
was--Essie?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my
mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.
Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying
Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you
might have said then?
Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the
time than I do now.
Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now
recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks,
are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that
development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you
gave us yesterday, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with
Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of
which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now
recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting
interviews by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of
Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the
nature of the work, his fellow employees?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the
subject of his military service?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. His political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all.
Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's
treatment of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of
his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. By either she or him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware
of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he
reached Russia and attempted to defect----
Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at
the time that you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he
had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?
Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable,
the word is.
Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor
Connally?
Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did she?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your
presence of his dreams or aspirations?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and
aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she
would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.
Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I
mentioned it.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the
meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine
articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina
appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading.
Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading?
Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.
Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that
some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?
Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect
of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press
would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With
which I disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and
had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I
thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten
from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to
her of their sympathy and support.
Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on
March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions
voluntarily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us that.
Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager
whom she is trying to fire.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people
in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful
notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on
the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation
for themselves. And she concurred in that.
Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction?
Did she indicate an awareness of that?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that
she thought that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee
Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile,
and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to
obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can
recall that you have not told us?
Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee
Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being
returned to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication
of that to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of
his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the
summer of 1963 or any other time?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963,
that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee
Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting
President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations
on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the
Kennedys?
Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections.
Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the
attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you
have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them
with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the
Communist Party in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the
Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers
Party.
Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact.
Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's
personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who
sought his own comfort, his own consolation?
I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who,
to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to
prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to
make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he
is reticent, retiring.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as
a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and,
therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.
But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of
the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that
he was at my house.
And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the
people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or
watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed
rather than as a social event.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear
on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this
investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related,
his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he
visited?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted,
or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after
work hours in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been
to the National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of
what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there,
or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his
time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent
evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the
room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore,
guessed that he made use of that opportunity.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you
have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat
lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was
not generally accepted as a man of capacity?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence
in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of
himself, these operating at the same time.
I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at
the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his
feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income,
and he was glad to have it.
I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert
as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family
and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that.
Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were
very legitimate interests.
Mr. JENNER. In his presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had
said when he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression
of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a
nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that
is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation
with Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about
their life in the United States up to that point?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster
than I could follow it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that
conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get
work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work
going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath
the dignity of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have
just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were
available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what
Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at
the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to
handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the
mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more
this nature, than indicating being above such things.
Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction
work generally physically difficult?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the
Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some
comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at
least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them
rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth
because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that
conversation that her husband was an idealist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall
whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with
Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that
I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague
impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me.
But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.
Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been
that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a
conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina
admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son?
Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is
vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken
place.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the
opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League
for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever
joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot
recall having had any contact with that group?
Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature.
Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make
any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs.
Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not
emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating
yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with
Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.
Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any
such motivation?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it
is in the record. You are a pacificist?
Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as
rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising
a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular
situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my
behavior.
Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government,
or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or
character?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to
the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said,
appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles
and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November
22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an
overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories,
particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as
to what the actual facts were and are?
Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that.
First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on
the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular
story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.
I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read
and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story
does not refer to things I personally know about.
On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty
accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of
what was reported of what I said.
I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department,
that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house
when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----
Mr. JENNER. Perused?
Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They
are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have
tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very
far.
I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief
over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much
more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just
makes more poignant my grief.
Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's
memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were
mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or
whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer.
Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not
certain where such a street might be.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry
there is in the diary.
Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?
Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but,
otherwise, that rings no bell.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language----
Mrs. PAINE. Training?
Mr. JENNER. Trn.
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.
Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality?
Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp.
Organ, 1733 Spring.
Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me.
May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder,
I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.
Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned
was Spring; is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in
any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was
living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends?
Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday
evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon,
as I have testified.
Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his
quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to
his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then
sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22
of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket
wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you
would have done?
Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.
And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration
of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of
course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to
consider the situation that I am in and react according to that
situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.
I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of
reach of children or out of sight of children.
Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had
you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage,
what is your present thought as to what you might have done with
respect to advising the FBI of its existence?
Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered
it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in
Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the
assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a
rifle, a deer rifle.
I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no
consequence or interest to them.
Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your
knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with
Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of
the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee
Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the
existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was
for any other purpose than deer hunting.
Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to
November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about
your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought
there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey
Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the
Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that
Government?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry.
Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to
Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when
Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October
1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.
Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect?
I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.
Mrs. PAINE. On what day?
Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of
October.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that.
Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the
front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----
Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from
Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind
or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out
of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my
impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of
October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed,
and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4
to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other
than the green zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being
used by him.
Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion
ever one discussed between you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our
first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting,
after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she
told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't
believe in abortion.
Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards
her avoiding a larger family?
Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I
think probably I might have covered them all.
Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you
understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not
seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or
empathy or aversion to it.
Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is
rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may
be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or
governmental system.
Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative
Ford's inquiry.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in
any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the
whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----
Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.
Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or
admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or
philosophy, you have an aversion?
Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course
in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.
Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to
your work at Antioch College as a student?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto?
Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course.
Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was
limited to the college course?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das
Capital, would your answers be the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not
want to read it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it.
Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course?
Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would
have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider
yourself a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not.
Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the
American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that
organization?
Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have
been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the
time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became
on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That
chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.
Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist
others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage
them; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of
your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a
conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he
was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be
of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what
possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble
eventually?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just
referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that
organization to him personally.
Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any
time for counsel?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the
Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending
people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt
that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.
Mr. JENNER. Or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether
Lee understood that.
Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to
proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in
this area or subject than you have now given?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the
telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us
how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian
language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you
can.
Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by
saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.
Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native
Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am
talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and
these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one
does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it
gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or
taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with
some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection
that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because
I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and
because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to
do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to
learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know
the language, though I am fluent in it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are.
You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say
as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of
grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?
Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary----
Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction.
Mrs. PAINE. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual
conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of
speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in
Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an
8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many
more mistakes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when
you compose a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can
think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes
occur in it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian
language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963
was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?
Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months
that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and
certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.
Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your
command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you
judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to
vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?
Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had
less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.
Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?
Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or
not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed
to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did
read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian
newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and
magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get
the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive
perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it
and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for
example, pigeon English use of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I
have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what
I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very
large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the
words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.
Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as
near as you can tell?
Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of
the Russian language, or his use of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did
not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time
in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian
was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke
better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall
her saying it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know
whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment,
but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was
embarrassed.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in
Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will
be in addition to anything you have already told us.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my
testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I
think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to
obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties
in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.
Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have
not testified to on that particular subject----
Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself?
Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to
Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have
not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in
Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for
all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of
time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I
gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there
a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me,
as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their
steamship passage.
Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they
had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by
himself in Minsk, which was unusual.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a
little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy.
And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.
Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that
she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question,
which I ghosted to you.
Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several
times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood
relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that
this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations.
Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all
about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also
said was unusual.
Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense?
Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to
financially.
Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a
position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife
did not have to work?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes.
She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and
her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections
I have of their time in Minsk?
Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia.
Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at
Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation
with her, I know she was born 2 months early.
Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths
of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a
tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge
later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her
upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand.
Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position?
Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this
was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina
described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her
grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father?
Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny,
that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and
stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a
neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this
man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her
stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger
brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive.
I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked
Leningrad, was proud of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk,
or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from
Leningrad to Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented
to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were
many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have
the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work
there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and
work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move
from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about
the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so--that you
don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You
have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your
papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or
apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you
don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this
country.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the
difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that
she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia.
She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people
are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still
remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good
work or they didn't stay on the job.
Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the
system? Russia from that in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods,
and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were
much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was
impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to
loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan
things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure
that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You
could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and
necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason,
and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she
found here.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was
hospitalized in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her
description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk
hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot
think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any
reference to it--I am not sure I remember now.
Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted.
Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction
in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in
my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he
love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself
to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without
occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to
whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been
at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's
part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or
certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an
argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own
views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language,
than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more
relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that
her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather
it was a healthy thing.
Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us
here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and
published works on the Russian people and the Russian character,
that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to
exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or
opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality
formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but
also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe
what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made
of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of
enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American,
but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more
tendencies to--among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and
things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of
the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.
Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now
relate?
Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that
I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting
things going on under the surface.
I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at
Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office
one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad
use intended for it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's
sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?
Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have
about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her
personally.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.
Mrs. PAINE. You wish my opinion now?
It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described
interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and
that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation
in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the
hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some
of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from
the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico,
judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by
Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.
Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And
I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and
this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she
might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was
going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.
Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in
what sense?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a
passport to get him to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that
he applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that
application and the fact that he received it?
Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement?
That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell
the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put
to her?
Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to
tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified,
as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount
of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of
any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth,
just in terms of time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected--of course, you must
understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were
opened on her examination.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is
a----
Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what
her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable
one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling
the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in
that judgment by having been present when she could not positively
identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police
station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she
positively identified it here at the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable
to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her
was her husband's rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now
being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without
fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on
subjects such as that?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do
something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever
mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with
respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of
truth or sense of frankness?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as
friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of
course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me
about something is quite different from telling me something that is
misleading to the whole truth of the situation.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure
to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in
it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would
be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with
her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only
explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is
that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what
I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I
would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have
felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee
would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no
need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI
has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with
Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a
shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the
content of a note.
I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to
someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the
information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I
deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.
And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing
on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought
she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely
dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement.
Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?
Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press
is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for
Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir
up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had
Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think
that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.
Mr. JENNER. Batista?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--which is not saying a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in
mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to
what you understand to be the Castro regime.
Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks
to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly
object to.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand
it, that it is liberal or reactionary?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as
to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New
Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he
said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was
engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure
employment in Houston.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that
period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of
September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th
of October?
Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you
ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily
arise?
Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?
Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she
did.
Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.
Mr. JENNER. When did she arise?
Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep
a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than
her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done
in her own apartment.
Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later
or earlier?
Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up
later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself
into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all
correspondence that she received at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she
got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered
in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.
Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she
reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she
retained them after living in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she
arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you
know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or
Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?
Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which
my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?
Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either
you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and
Marina and Lee together?
Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil
Liberties Union meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even
acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest?
Mrs. PAINE. With Marina?
Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee--did you have any?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not really.
Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching.
Mr. JENNER. That's about all?
Mrs. PAINE. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us
everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about
any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one
hand and Marina on the other?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest
in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in
Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.
Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things
that come up in connection with children.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with
either of them, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No--that's right. You mean which took us to a group with
other people?
Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She
occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities.
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and
sources of funds?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with
Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket
package and the gun in the package?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d?
Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any
conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have
related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your
home on the 22d of November, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with
Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time.
Mr. JENNER. Or use of it.
I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of
questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry
firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home
or premises.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in
mind.
I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have
reached the end.
You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the
Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in
evidence.
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in
the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when
he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in
Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances
or friends in Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said
he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so
or not.
Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends
in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in
Philadelphia.
Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go
and look.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while
she was at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from
New Orleans on May 9th.
Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or
otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been
tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo
handler at $310 per month?
Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that. $310 a month?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment
at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been
able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo
handler at $310 per month.
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell
through--that there was not that possibility.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the
time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to----
Mr. JENNER. How did it come about?
Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right----
Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.
Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas
School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by
the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency
I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not
available to him.
Mr. JENNER. But that was----
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job
itself.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine
Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."
(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for
identification.)
It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed
"Ruth."
Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be
a translation familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you do that?
Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note
accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which
carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and
they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469
the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having
examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.
Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and
previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your
recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what
you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian
language?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had
forgotten.
Mr. JENNER. Having that----
Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description----
Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to
add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when
you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially
useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great
deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I
mention some.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother,
when?
Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it.
I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in
Russian exchange.
Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am
opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to
study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing.
Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right
here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual
decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought
out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within.
Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the
expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from
your--inner prompting.
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs.
Paine--your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the
evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following
morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's
license application bureau.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on
Friday, but came on Saturday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter
before he went to the driver training location.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having
used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to
be fairly soon after breakfast.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's
license bureau, he used your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the
driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on
Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that
he had come to your home the night before as usual.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and
then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more
than one occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About how many?
Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add
to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just
parking. Three lessons altogether.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk
secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary.
Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just----
Mrs. PAINE. Just English.
Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his?
Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question.
Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those
lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your
husband?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?
Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.
Mr. JENNER. Pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with
leading questions.
Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed
any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a
President or anyone holding high public office?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your
home that you saw such a movie on television?
Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his
looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety.
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to
call the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I
am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that
incident.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever.
Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that
discussion.
Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly
gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection
with his securing employment?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive,
making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of
course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for
the Manner Bakery.
Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum
Co.?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider
possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a
truck, delivery truck.
Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or
home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said
anything about whether he was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join
the Communist Party while he was in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that
evening.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone
call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the
assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex.,
which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over
some time to----
Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call?
Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my
house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and
in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?
Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you
completed your full recollection of the incident?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did
come.
Mr. JENNER. And when did he come?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at
Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on
Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the
best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.
My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what
time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have
been making dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another
occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we
certainly planned to get together again.
Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his
coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.
Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you
have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald
incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of
the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which
you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything
of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt
on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any
importance.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you
know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including
November 22.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you
ought to say or wish to say about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two
Secret Service men.
Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina
one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described,
that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the
Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which
were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child
care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently
reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's
"Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily
reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.
I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret
Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they
come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze,
of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the
other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze
showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper
such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read
it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I
could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before.
I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was
written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the
English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than
the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And
that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his
impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me.
And I said----
Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that--I
repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly
have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was
current, and he did not say.
We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying
that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and
tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze,
"I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went
over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he
volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must
have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my
having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that
seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.
Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker
having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain
I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported
by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at
the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some
of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office
box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr.
Gopadze.
I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement
to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the
Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently
irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the
executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this
information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious,
because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell
anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested
enough to have made such a call himself.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th
after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in
the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.
Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon?
Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay
as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang,
he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian
language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.
Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television?
Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.
Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when
you returned?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any
chance stop by a car dealers?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?
Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have
been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it
took you to go to the polls to vote that day?
Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the
grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my
sight for any length of time.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home
or within your general presence all day.
Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for
activities of the 10th?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, please.
Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to
which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched
pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening
after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at
the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I
would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me
in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already
said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission
Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that
testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the
top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into
the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know.
I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the
furniture in the room around.
Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is
Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it
inside the secretary.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting
for it to be picked up.
Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first
noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open.
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to
that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during
that period?
Mrs. PAINE. Two of them.
Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your
home, to have made a tape recording?
Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not
work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have
been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.
Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his
shop.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At his quarters?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work.
Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have
made any tape recording.
Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any
agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.
Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of
the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could
not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the
rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun
range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex.,
residing or staying as a guest in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough
for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can
recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence
at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection,
there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he
was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home
unless you walk or have someone drive you.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility
of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?
Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly
about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my
vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to--definite plans to
teach for the summer.
She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there
might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there
were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of
Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite
excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she
referred to it.
After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to
be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such
an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.
Mr. JENNER. And you so told her?
Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.
Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this
letter.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I
want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your
tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite
detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been
very helpful.
On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our
appreciation.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help.
Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time.
Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.
Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist
upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel
to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I
now put that question to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that
typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read
before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to
Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested
to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right
to do so.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23,
1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the
deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the
Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on
Saturday.
Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear
you?
Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.
Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe
Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.
We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's
home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the
presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's
full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12
feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining
room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast
corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast
corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house
consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have
just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That
particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West
Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north
wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom
in that neither of these windows is a picture window.
Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture
window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of
it--it's around 43 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then?
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements
discussed.)
Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you
recite it, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches
high.
Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches
high?
Agent HOWLETT. Right.
Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches?
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the
curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on,
as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe
you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in
the evidence?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to
comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed
himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate
as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of
the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he
made his second visit to you, and have you done so?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I
cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of
my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's
other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that
should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however,
at the moment?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now
see Mr. Howlett's car.
Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it.
I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the
picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. Street.
Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is
that, an elm or oak?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak.
Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is
in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it,
John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile
is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb
at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and
cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.
Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a
cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of
Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of
the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans
substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which
is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.
Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home
that's not now used.
Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home?
Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year.
Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east,
and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.
It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you
last fall?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream
automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the
west side of the Paine premises?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now.
Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check
me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.
It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on
either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?
Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both
automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of
the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let
alone make out the numbers?
Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.
(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as
well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore
mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises
outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children
and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to
the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being
conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the
taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or
described my observations looking through the picture window first on
Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and
the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could
not be seen in the way of a license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate.
Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for
a second time to interview you?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that
day--yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st
of November?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm
not sure--absolutely certain of that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.
Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number
of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home.
Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence
and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by
implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on
the FBI automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that.
Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have
drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview
in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on
the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?
Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I
noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the
street on the first interview, and it seems to me----
Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to
his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point
that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their
visits.
Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car
down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. The first time.
Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which
way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?
Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term?
Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best
recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the
Ponders used to live in.
Mr. JENNER. The whom?
Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders.
Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]?
Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the
brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east.
Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and
whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad?
Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the
Randles.
Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from
your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other
way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he
parked when he first came to talk with her.
Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that
day--November 1st?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two
men drive away?
Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I
did.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me.
Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license
plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November
1st?
Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate
could have been seen with 20-20 vision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that
recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty
left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my
attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did
not notice whether he passed in front of the house.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have?
Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with
normal vision.
Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix
definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen
the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to
whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have
you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any?
Mrs. PAINE. I have none.
Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as
you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet
away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of
your home as we have now noted on the fifth.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?
Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on
Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before
dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings
when he was here?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower
in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of
November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of
yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north
side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the
back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom
where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a
noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not
noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to
get that--whether you could hear it.
Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it.
Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might
well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when
you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower
had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that.
Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have
noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning
and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then
gone?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your
awakening?
Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I
awoke.
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements
in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5
feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south
at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb,
9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the
garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2
bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth
Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine,
I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street,
am I not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the
combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on
the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door
jamb to the right or west?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what?
Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the
outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb
of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside
jamb.
Mr. JENNER. So that the space west----
Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate
the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before
I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how
wide is that?
Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.
Mr. JENNER. And how high?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8-1/2 inches and it would actually be
classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall
which lights the light in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the
door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?
Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light
switch appeared, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which
included that area.
Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.
Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.
Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to
the center of the light switch?
Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6-3/4 inches to the center of the
light switch.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the
FBI photograph.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the
garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full
door facing onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I
arrived?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first
there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened.
Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs.
Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your
garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on?
Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner
and turned on the light.)
Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you
enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?
Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from
the dining room area?
Agent HOWLETT. Right.
Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less
than a hand's length away, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage
in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to
the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape
against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth
Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across.
Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of
your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe
it.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except
for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from
east to west; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep.
Mr. JENNER. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area
wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the
floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And I judge--well, John Joe, we might as well measure that
while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to
the ceiling?
Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3
inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The
opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches
tall.
Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the
blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage,
which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time
have been placed in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so.
Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open
to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the
storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents
for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in
there in the storeroom.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When you
hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth
birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the
blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably,
necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small
storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that
small storeroom?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday
evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.
Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described
last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in
that small storeroom had it been there?
Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that
there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as
I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it,
the length of your house?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet?
Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some
considerable period of time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion----
Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?
Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over.
Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the
fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. I never have.
Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I
have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your
home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat
out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan.
Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on
the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in
the ceiling?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and,
if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up
there, correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.
Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of
1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of
the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22,
did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your
house?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that.
Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were
present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street
side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the
living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our
presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you
noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of
Counsel Jenner.)
The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of
the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the
center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west
wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill,
a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then
underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?
Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk.
Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left
and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest.
Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench
also--are all these things now in the position they were on November
22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from
October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position.
Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch
in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west
wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is
piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench
in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963,
Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller.
Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition
it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the
outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from
the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the
west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece
of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the
band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is,
resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches.
Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate
"Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the
band saw is what, John Joe?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a
piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and
I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and
place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE. That's it.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of
Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed
that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was
when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November
22.
Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how
many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and
ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr.
Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north.
My recollection is not that clear.
Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best
recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of
the desk underneath the work bench?
Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than
that piece is.
Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the
outside edge of the package was.
Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge?
Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside?
Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory
as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was
when I stood here or here?
Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs.
Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work
bench?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway,
that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath
the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside
edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when
was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the
second time?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and
that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer
just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your
recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the
garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to
and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be
better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed
it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in
the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the
east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but
between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band
saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece
of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw
itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table,
measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion
of the saw table?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so
that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and
inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage
door, which is down in place?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch
package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't
remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west
or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw
table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings
of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was
either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is
suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east
wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw
table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and
the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing
underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the
package on the floor earlier--the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it
was.
Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?
Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers.
Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of
the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch.
Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist
of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet
1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is
in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the
package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was
filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space
between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest
of drawers?
Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped
package was.
Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on
the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can.
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the
saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in
your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a
box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in
turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I
have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as
heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has
exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will
cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 271."
(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits
Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe,
Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string
which the witness has identified, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree
with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to
get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is
that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible.
Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the
same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November
22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the
policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right?
Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina,
or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in
the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who
first entered. I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the
garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a
rifle located in the home?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that
occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the
police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that
most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the
room where Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate
your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you
walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if
any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back
here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner,
entering the garage.)
Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many
policemen were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three.
Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things
were in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead
garage door?
Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east.
Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen
there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described
to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part,
however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----
Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most
of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage
facing south?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened?
Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a
rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where?
Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at
the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away
from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered,
"No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?
Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this----
Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way----
Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here
facing south.
Mr. JENNER. She was facing you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, she was.
Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end
of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door,
which was in place?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she
knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time
previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which
she indicated the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection
is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then
translated.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped
package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto?
Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.
Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she
had said.
Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did
you feel anything hard?
Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.
Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or
a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the
policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about
in its center, having in mind its length?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and
horizontal?
Mrs. PAINE. It wilted.
Mr. JENNER. It drooped?
Mrs. PAINE. It folded.
Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was
nothing in the package?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. In the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were
still on the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the
Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it?
Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of
the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as
I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large
secretary desk in the dining area.
Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what
looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that
you had in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased
the previous wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of
this?
Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet
that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches.
Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett,
please. We will now measure this.
Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch.
Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you
please cut this?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)
Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just
cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272."
Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?
(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is
startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the
Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such
articles.
Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand,
some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on
November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you
as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?
(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No.
273," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk
secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white
string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on
this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string
you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to
refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about
the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string
on the package, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be
marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."
(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No.
274," for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand
now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the
Mexico note.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will
identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read
it the previous day.
Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the
desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the
wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located?
Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that
Sunday morning?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk
secretary was, if it is not here?
Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the--the middle
of the north wall of the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa
or a couch?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that
position?
Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk
secretary.
Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your
living room; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the
afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the
police called at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now.
Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living
room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway
entering into your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were
sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located
at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all
the other furniture in the room.
Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the
Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it
and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?
Mrs. PAINE. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of
November--that same day that I read the note.
Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday?
Mrs. PAINE. That was.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to
move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of
the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?
Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there.
Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when
you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing
toward Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the
south wall, drawn back?
Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed.
Mr. JENNER. They were not closed?
Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each
side.
Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the
television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?
Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Why not?
Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and
Marina was to the west.
Mr. JENNER. She was to your right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't----
Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed
them coming?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it
[at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs.
Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered
the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the
driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were
parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the
door was closed----
Mrs. PAINE. As it was.
Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed.
Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he
agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching
from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not
have seen them as they approached from the west?
Agent HOWLETT. No.
Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police
had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the
door?
Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened
the door.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.
(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by
Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you,
John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the
doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite
these facts?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places
designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a
moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some
bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close
to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree
which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade
tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a
moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of
the home to the sidewalk?
Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the
reporter what that distance is?
The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the
depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area
is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we
have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late
afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home
from what direction?
Mrs. PAINE. From the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see
some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your
surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the
premises?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this
block--that's across Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home,
which is named Westbrook?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's how far?
Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down.
Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June,
their child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the
house.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into
that a little bit.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the
record at this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you
sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn,
late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came
to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and
parked your car?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the
driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile
when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by
surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Apology for what?
Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say so?
Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him?
Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered.
Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her
attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was
unexpected as far as she was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As well as yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage
that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or
deep freeze in the garage, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right
up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion
of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage
dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep.
Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of
the door jam, westerly; is that correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall.
Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze?
Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze
that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?
Agent HOWLETT. That's right.
Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style.
Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present
recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the
number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary
course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you
would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable.
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which
I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?
Mrs. PAINE. This is one.
Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it,
Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a
box. They are what I call a large hollow block.
Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are
sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play.
Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden
blocks, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes
as a block and which I describe as a box?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long.
Mr. JENNER. How deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on
the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call
a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one
side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not
correct?
Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five
sides and open on the top.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the
record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?
Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.
Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?
Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box.
Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that
evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That evening.
Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you?
Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you working?
Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I
had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the
brush.
Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?
Mrs. PAINE. The north end.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the
evening, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you
entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.
Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take
them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to
lacquer them?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one
was in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went
into the garage to lacquer?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.
Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw.
Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw?
Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance
to the garage----
Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door?
Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door
to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?
Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this
particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when
you opened the door, if anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. The light where?
Mrs. PAINE. In the garage.
Mr. JENNER. The overhead light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the
ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is.
Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks
like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs
downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the
ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in
place on the night in question?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what
watt it is?
Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of
the white walls.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say
"garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the
inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that
direction, had it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that
direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't
using the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at
that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock
that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion
that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart
from this particular circumstance you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in
and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some
time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.
Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your
kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the
fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes
and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually
impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without
your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the
dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the
kitchen-dining area at all.
Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to
9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time,
occasionally, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage,
at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were.
Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed
preparations.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been
in your garage without your knowing it?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would
know it then too.
Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that
bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured
quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you
necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.
Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully
in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom,
coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the
Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that
evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in
the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and
other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you
weren't present when they did that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of
a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits
and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the
President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by
the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed,
"Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the
home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on
Beckley Street in Dallas.
Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice
each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described,
whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as
the case might be.
The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears
either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which
indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the
microfilm number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our
attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see
anything that I had seen or have since seen.
Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you
don't miss anything.
Mrs. PAINE. This is mine.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what
is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it.
Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?
Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not,
from the description--it is microfilm 198.
Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine,
the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell.
Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the
one we have picked out--you have picked out?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all
those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your
home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of
those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.
"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing,
but that's what I recall having seen.
Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen?
Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment.
Let's go off the record here for a moment.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.
Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy
pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.
LITERATURE
_Name_ _Place _Microfilm
found_ No._
Application, the Militant Irving 380
Application slip for FPCC Beckley 416
Application slips for FPCC (187) Irving 96
Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," Irving 330
by James Cannon.
Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity Irving 319
with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC.
Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to Irving 307
the U.S.," published by FPCC.
Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 Irving 308
University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar."
Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy Irving 304
and Sectarianism."
Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C. Irving 329
Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 201
Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 202
Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Irving 313
Paul Sarte
Booklet, list of Russian and Communist Irving 309
literatures publications.
Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right Irving 311
to Travel"
Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 Irving 320
Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the Irving 310
committed of Democratic Spain.
Book, Russian Irving 84
Books, Russian (18) Irving 78-83
Book, Russian Language No. 732648 Irving 112
Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Irving 305
Josepth Hanson
144
Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 Irving 324
Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" Irving 318
Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410
Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409
Historical," by Keiber and Nelson.
Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409
Historical"
Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., Beckley 415
New Orleans.
Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Irving 335
St., New Orleans.
Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Beckley 414
St., New Orleans, La.
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Irving 97
Join the FPCC
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Irving 300
Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch.
Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Beckley 405
Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense
comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962.
Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Beckley 401
Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to
Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962.
Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Beckley 412
Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala.,
letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963.
Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Beckley 430
Ala., to Lee and Marie.
Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, Beckley 413
re: Ability to translate.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, Beckley 400
New Orleans, to Oswald.
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Beckley 406
Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31,
1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of Beckley 403
FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963.
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, Beckley 407
FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine,
New Orleans.
145
Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit Beckley 429
House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead.
Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, Irving 363
1963
Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Beckley 445
Party, to Oswald.
Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Beckley 438
Press letterhead, to Oswald.
Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager Beckley 404
of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald.
Magazine, "Friends Word News" Irving 87
Magazine, "The Militant" Irving 85
Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Irving 322
Sept. 12, 1963.
Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in Irving 198
black standing behind what appears to be
a master of ceremonies dressed in white.
Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Irving 191
Minsk, Russia.
Newspaper, "The Worker" Irving 86
Newspaper, clipping, re: the President Irving 120
Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. Irving 98
Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, Irving 270
showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs.
John R. Hall.
Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and Beckley 417
cartoon regarding defectors).
Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Beckley 413
Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing
peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway,
N.Y.C.
Newspapers (7), Russian language Irving 381
Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Irving 380
Worker, with return envelopes to publishers
News Press.
146
Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by Irving 317
James P. Cannon.
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Irving 303
Lamont
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Irving 99
Curliss Lamont
Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School Irving 312
of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro.
Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Irving 315
Rocan
Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover Irving 325
Pamphlets, Russian Irving 89-94
Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document Irving 192
Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, Beckley 411
fall term, 1963.
Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled Irving 321
"Automation, a Job Killer."
Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4) Irving 366
Photos, Fidel Castro (6) Irving 366
Photo, Fidel Castro Irving 368
Photo, female Russian workers in radio Irving 332
factory
Photo, Russian workers Irving 331
147
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is
a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall.
Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the
place--wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C.,
and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it.
Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your
recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in
my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as
stated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of
the north edge of the workbench.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown
wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?
Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a
pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind?
Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian
blinds.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr.
Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which
appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about
6-1/2 inches high and about 6-1/2 inches through.
While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the
package and it is a little bit irregular.
Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches.
Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a
shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north
edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I
have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the
shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what
distance?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package.
Mrs. PAINE. While you are up there, measure the one behind you.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will.
Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package
down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will
open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.
The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence
and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr.
Howlett, what does the package contain?
Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6
inches.
Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not?
Mrs. PAINE. They are.
Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper
around your home at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had
bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.
Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her
package back the way it was?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record.
Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it
has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017,
and "Will call--M. R. Paine."
Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore
identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this
particular package when it was delivered to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the
first instance?
Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but
that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came
in this package, I have no idea whatever.
Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the
blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to
you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears
on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?
Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes.
Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to
do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that
right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just
described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping
paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we
have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the
work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is
also on the shelf.
Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how long?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.
Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package
we have already described?
Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north
end.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?
Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds
which I did have in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package
down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.
(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel
Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds,
and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.
Mrs. PAINE. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the
windows in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how
wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the other one is?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring
window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however,
are white or cream colored, and are plastic?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade
is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade
spring.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as
did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No.
4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are
wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper
that you keep in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that
shelf?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you
had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light
and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER. You, of course--you did state it was possible they might
not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found
the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the
upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT. About 10-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a
butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be
a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett--how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a
kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and
see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the
curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you
please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage
floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar,
at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in
Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in
color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It
was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't
find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken
down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which
you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your
garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at
any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits
and we will return them after they have been placed of record?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark
Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.
(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter
as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't
have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the
record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad
one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very
light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy
tin?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into
the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended
tip they are----
Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned.
Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?
Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain
rod.
Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures
about 2-3/8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U,"
do they not, a long "U"?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item
to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence
between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?
Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain
that remark?
Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the
exception of one Christmas card from Marina.
Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you
transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear
only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation
for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them
off.
Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may.
TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT
Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved
Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and
be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this
deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Agent HOWLETT. I do.
Mr. JENNER. State your name, please?
Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United
States?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent.
Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening,
brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of
Mrs. Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted
me, have you not?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the
appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the
reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the
conditions?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the
various measurements that are now recorded in this record?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called
figures or ordered descriptions?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made,
to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And made in your presence?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window.
Mr. JENNER. Which window?
Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there--yes.
Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches,
and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. High or wide?
Agent HOWLETT. Wide--would you like for me to check it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might check it.
Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade
we have just measured.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness,
Mrs. Paine.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony.
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated
here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they
are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Since November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22.
Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven
pages?
Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page.
Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine
Exhibit No. 277."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for
identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence
between November 22 and the first date here--December 27.
Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions
about the exhibit first?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of
translations prepared by you?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which
you transmitted or delivered?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other
fashion to Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that
way?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or
method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as
Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top
indicating when the translation was made.
Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals
were dispatched?
Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later.
Mr. JENNER. How much later?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January
26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27,
December 28 and January 3.
Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation?
Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I
cannot now find.
Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared
the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you
wished, you then wrote the final answer?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the
time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was
written and sent.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed
carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit
277?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief,
after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions
are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive
character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced
Exhibit 277--what are those papers?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence
there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which
was December 27.
Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if
you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which
appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?
Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to
Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and
checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these
via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but
I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second
one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in
Washington.
There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked
December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me
to Marina on the same date, December 21.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card?
Mrs. PAINE. They crossed.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording
of the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing
it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't
serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content
of my note, which I have no copy of that.
Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the
situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I
say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from
myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I
didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her.
Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last
week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered
something to him?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had come containing
contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina
and arrived at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having
talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked
with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also
brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas
gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had
previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate
for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside
had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie",
and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also
brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family.
Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct.
Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the
house--the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture
window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the
Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas
with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on
your typewriter repaired?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington,
found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about
that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the
Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key
repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that
occasion as well?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children
went in, and the check stub is dated October 18.
Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when
you picked up the typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter,
and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday
that I took the typewriter in.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had the
typewriter repaired as of that time?
Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced.
Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect Russian
symbol--Russian language symbol?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee
Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the
circumstances?
Mrs. PAINE. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching
Russian to one student.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would
like to add to the record.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at
the moment.
Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is,
since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my
attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a
bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have
been heretofore advised?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There is nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think.
Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record.
In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that
is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash
as distinguished from check or money orders?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that
came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service
as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had
not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I
therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as
cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.
Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance
of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne----
Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face?
Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was
signing, and by this I meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply
to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I
assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a
check written by me to her.
Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the
hand of John Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth
Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of
that page, are you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter
which appears on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that
letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277,
accompanying it was a check?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope.
Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated
December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to
Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.
(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an
endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit
277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand.
Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of
remitting cash gifts by check?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which
purports to be and which is a check.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other
document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is
the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit
No. 277-B, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature
appears as the maker of each of those checks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.
Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you
by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is
there an endorsement on the reverse side?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. In whose hand?
Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand.
Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement
"For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said.
Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when
they were returned to you, by your bank?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December
28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check
No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.
(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A
and 277-B.)
Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain
these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of
the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to
return them all to you at once.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be
helpful to the Commission in this investigation?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of
this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with
you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record
sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record
sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has
been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the
record by Mr. Howlett or by me?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear
of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining
room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant,
completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone
fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children
playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting
out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to
the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to
west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There
is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the
clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line
of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19-1/2 feet south of
the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one
at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in
circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much
smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick.
The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has
a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have
recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.
Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the
ground.
Mr. JENNER. I see--I recited it 3 inches and that was in error.
Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on
the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have
testified this evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated
it would you read the translation into the record?
Mrs. PAINE. The translation says:
"DEAR RUTH:
Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and
wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very
sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not
my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better
changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the
very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you
did for me.
Sincerely,
MARINA.
P.S.--Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little
June. I kiss you, Marina."
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine.
Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which
reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front
of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now
have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing
which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing.
Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at
Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting
on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is that?
Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope
itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified--she was able to write English
to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now
hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the
envelope?
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit
Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was
except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the
envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed.
Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its
contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you
received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain
the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been
identified this evening.
Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to
add, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point.
Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the
Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in
your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I
recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large
beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west
your yard in the rear a clothesline.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19-1/2 feet south
of the back porch--of the back fence?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when
you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the
midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to
advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in
connection with events that day?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had
been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I
told her.
Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the
clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the
same position now as those posts were on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing
the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I
reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had
announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the
School Book Depository. She recalled that to me in the evening and
told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I
don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the
Commission hearings--I have recalled it since.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled
"Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination
of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I
asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and
papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49--is that an
affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city
police?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in
your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of
November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh
your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh
your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your
testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the
interview of the Dallas city police with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was
it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time.
"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said
county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth
Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who,
after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have
lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband,
Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the
early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I
heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I
was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald
and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to
visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me
because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two
weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband.
Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I
was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He
came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me.
Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with
his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at
the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted.
Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm
yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when
he left for work.
(S) RUTH HYDE PAINE."
Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to
be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar
with her signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature.
Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh
your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what
occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not
already testified.
Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.)
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a
statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the
Dallas City Police Station?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina
Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page
46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what
was said, is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony
or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that
she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was
not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her
husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station.
This is what I particularly remember.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the
blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?
Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here.
Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle
in it."
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and
saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already
that her husband had one.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred
to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we
thought we might ask you before we close.
Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the
kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the
contents of that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to
the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents
of that drawer.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished--is there anything you
wish to add?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at
7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal
appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative
with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this
sometimes gruesome work.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help.
Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here
in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do
so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it
will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready,
since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession,
I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your
testimony of last week as well.
Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could
then sign this deposition.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you
on Saturday of last week.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all.
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE
The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley
J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAINE. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your
deposition to find out some of the background information that you have
about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part
of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.
We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of
the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was
allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at
the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in
your garage in Texas.
I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge
of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money
or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you
or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to
the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but
before I do that, will you state your name for the record.
Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?
Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located?
Mr. PAINE. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
that occurred?
Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has
kept a calendar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the
assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to
other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?
Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's
house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this
couple who were represented as he having been an American who had
defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was
sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet
him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates
from my wife but I think that was in February.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the
conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more
in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you
met him?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our
house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding
the second meeting with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby
early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have
her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help
of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her
visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in
New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and
picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was
the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and
had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about
a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up,
and I guess Lee came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at
the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on,
Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a
Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.
So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to
recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because
I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his
voice on the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first
separated?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October?
Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in Grand Prairie?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the
period that you were separated particularly during the period of
September-October?
Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week
was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The
garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I
would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday
accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight
or did you just come----
Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in
your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the
eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of
1963?
Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent
a couple of months, the end of July, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I
don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or
the date she arrived at Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said
brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also
brought Oswald's personal and household effects?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of
the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but
whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to
take out.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip?
Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now----
Mr. PAINE. Go ahead.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is
important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we
could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday.
If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the
date they came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage
toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any
reason?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things
there, and the tools were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see
a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had
had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their
things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and
in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the
way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string
and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the
Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't
look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I
picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it
was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping
equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it
up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the
floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know
what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered
with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that
wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping
equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and
that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.
I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping
equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub
like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I
thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was
trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because
that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as
far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those
various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it
was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here,
enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but
just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I
visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that
must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw
you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a
rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a
yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of
what you visualized to be in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down.
I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one
time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out
of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only
thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which
looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different
pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.
Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something
that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual
package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in
the package.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first
picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of
as an iron pipe of some sort.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask
him to mark this as Exhibit 1.
(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)
Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you
that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be
a solid piece or just what was your feeling?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled.
I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't
hold together enough.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it?
Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now----
Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not,
that was too symmetrical.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical?
Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are
symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here
this wider area had to be offset somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?
Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I
first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried,
then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of
camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle
or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put
a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment,
to the shape of the thing.
I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts
in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I
just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full
extent of my thinking.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be?
Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you
indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how
long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have
indicated.
Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a length of 37-1/2 inches.
Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you
mean by that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly?
Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there
might have been any paper inside of it?
Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression.
Nothing crinkled, no sound.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that
there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they
didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by
that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping
equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection
with this particular package?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.
Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I
mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had
been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped
with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it
looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the
ground.
I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of
camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe,
at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I
drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another
pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe----
Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here
or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked
it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes
inside the package.
Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you
see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way
it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that
there was more than one pipe inside.
Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't
move one part with respect to another.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly?
Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was
wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two
pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package?
Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not
being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline
or something, I think that would go around the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here?
Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end
and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are
indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that
it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was
not as wide?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because
I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was
folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was
folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different
thoughts at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the
first drawing that you made on No. 1?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be
much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end
"B" and drawing in another line.
Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating,
between 7 and 8 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C".
Mr. PAINE. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C"
on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B"
at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record
straight as to what we have been talking about?
Mr. PAINE. [Marking.]
Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package,
the length and the height.
Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around
it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe
went actually through my fingers and thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it?
Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it
when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is
the thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has sketched----
Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with
the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand
indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about
2 inches thick, including the blanket.
When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was
wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was
just a fold of the blanket at that end?
Mr. PAINE. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly
wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall
exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the
strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here
somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"?
Mr. PAINE. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember
this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the
time so I was thinking about that.
I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too
asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have
been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end
of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember
that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well
wrapped up.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated
that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on
our drawing.
Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark
"D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was
folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?
Mr. PAINE. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on
an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt
wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the
saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned
not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have
indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and
a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the
package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn.
What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package?
Mr. PAINE. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this
pipe here shown didn't--the package. I must draw another package then.
The package must have sloped.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember how it was?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a
blanket, I mean it was a--reconstruct the blanket or something but this
is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the
outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't
think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual
separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my
mind into this package.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new
package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should
have gone right to the end of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the
edge of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a----
Mr. PAINE. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside
of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as
Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw
in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck
me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is
the mood of the colors there.
I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But
green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in
the garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to,
do anything you want to with it.
Mr. PAINE. I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks
cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very
good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the
night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more
mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this
absolutely.
It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good
candidate for, my memory of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have them on when you were working in there?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your
saw?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had lights near your saw, didn't you?
Mr. PAINE. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that
shines on the table.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is no light directly over the saw?
Mr. PAINE. No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of
the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket
around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine
the colors of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket.
I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue
spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the
impression I had of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. And those blue spots would have been a part of the
pattern of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket,
Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the
blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the
garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious
I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal
privacy, so I don't investigate something.
Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free
to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his
belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember.
I remember that feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like
the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is a good----
Mr. LIEBELER. It is similar?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with
brown thread, is it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Around some of the edges at any rate?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket
that was in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When
I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was
found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as
the next exhibit on this deposition.
(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for
identification.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which
has been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or
different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you
saw it in the garage, if you remember?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good
candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by
which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive
cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the
manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually
remember whether it was or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be similar?
Mr. PAINE. That is about as good as could come to my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket?
Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends.
Mr. LIEBELER. With two strings?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your
attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you
notice that pin?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference
table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the
rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on
November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these
materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string
something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your
garage?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the
whole----
Mr. REDLICH. By "this end" what do you mean?
Mr. PAINE. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had
wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when
you remember it in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want you just to continue to work with it and take
your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the
fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other.
Mr. PAINE. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did
with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions.
I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too
thick to do it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will
ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be
similar to the one you saw in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it
is not quite big enough here.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this end, you are referring to the end
marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt
end of the rifle, isn't that right?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that end is too thick.
Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we
have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick
enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?
Mr. PAINE. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same
thickness, calling the width from type--calling the rifle and the scope
of the rifle the width.
Mr. LIEBELER. The width?
Mr. PAINE. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the
thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of
the package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to
move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much
that I can't grab that feel of pipe.
That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been
two pipes there.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the
"A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you
remember the package in your garage or the same width?
Mr. PAINE. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt
end of the rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. The "B" end?
Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that appears to be thicker----
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Than the package that was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is
what, not as thick nor not as wide?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering?
Mr. PAINE. Quite so tapered.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that approximately the length of the package that you
remember in your garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or
another, I don't know what he did with this end.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the "A"?
Mr. PAINE. There was a string, there were two strings on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you estimated the length of the package before,
would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on
the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in
this particular package?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right
if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was
the kind of length that I would grab there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if
you folded this flap over here at "A"?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us
what it is?
Mr. PAINE. That is 41 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after going through the process that we have gone
through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you
think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a
package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight
of that package?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you
thought it weighed?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after
the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether
or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the
moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether
the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I
haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package
where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than
one tube.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did picture more than one tube----
Mr. PAINE. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to
be--there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture
therefore that it was----
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say----
Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the
top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn
there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as
well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the
Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to
have been used to assassinate the President?
Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination
if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he
was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to?
Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of
the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. By the what?
Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually
small clapboard.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being?
Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have
them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the
object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but
after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope
on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you
lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and
Peggs on November 24, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is
an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That
night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the
police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24?
Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.
Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I
spent at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can
recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day
of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on
that day?
Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police
took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an
affidavit right in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. PAINE. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from
the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he
had no--by leave of the police that he could do this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent?
Mr. PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior
to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I
don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not
remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed
without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news
reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the
police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because
they are more objectionable. I mean there is more----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the
name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on
November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?
Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as
best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you
stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination,
the night of the 22d?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life
reporters were there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. At Irving?
Mr. PAINE. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I
was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at
night.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what
happened after they left?
Mr. PAINE. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9
o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving
apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the
day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I
was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I
would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left
at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the
Bell Helicopter plant on that day?
Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has
asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I
don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the
helicopter plant?
Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall
previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police
came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was
out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas
Police Department?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at Irving that evening?
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back,
spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the
next morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on
Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was
wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this
rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize
that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he
spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he
couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I
didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a
rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to
Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that
time?
Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your
wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina
Oswald at that time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify
the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a
rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but
didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but----
Mr. LIEBELER. This is what----
Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or
this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it
was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle.
She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package
wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it
accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when
she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a
rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that
effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about
the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that
interview with the Dallas police?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that
Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to
her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a
sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which
is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything
like that before?
Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle,
a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I
can truthfully remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a
device----
Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all
whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you
have any idea what this might be?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this
around your own house or garage in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar
to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and
I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart
rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr.
Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and
see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made
to wrap the complete rifle.
Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the
same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes
the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't
have got the sense of pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the
rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems
natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the
rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping
the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?
Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave,
offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding
shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some
fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly
with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The
barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel
had to be sticking out beyond the stock.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be
sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in
the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly
enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was
put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that
there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the
FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure
it was a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle
as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on
the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe
I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the
rifle was suggested as an object.
Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was,
in fact, a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of
a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository,
after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364
is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual
sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been
discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been
treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated
is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are
concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any
event.
Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of
paper, the difference is pretty slight.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers,
however?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would
say there is a difference.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp
than 364?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to
me this is more common.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364?
Mr. PAINE. 364, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of
paper?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags
made of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142
and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your
garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to
the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them.
We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure
all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or
something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE. These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE. Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in
the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down
because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking
them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades,
I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a
question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any
particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply
of it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You
say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the
house.
Mr. PAINE. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are
junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work
bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on
them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might
be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades
in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new
floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I
thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain
rods themselves are 32-1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide
together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they
are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have,
I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that
resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the
window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might
have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about
these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to
Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something
to do with windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever
mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November
21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that
you can remember as being in that garage.
Mr. PAINE. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass
window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are
boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press.
My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it
now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage,
so it is fuzzy in my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the
FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?
Mr. PAINE. No, I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d?
Mr. PAINE. I think just about 3 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances under which you first heard
of the assassination on that day?
Mr. PAINE. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress
came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to
somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time you had heard only that the President had
been shot, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no connection with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the assassination at that time?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. Went back to the lab and then----
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who
was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you
first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near
the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot,
I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of
people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke,
so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it
until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was
not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School
Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank
Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next
half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that
Lee worked there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said.
Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't
think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision
no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping
on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the
hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I
didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact
had anything to do with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to
hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped
the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it
unlikely on that account alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?
Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye
witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting
the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with
deliberateness. This seemed in character.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with
compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't
see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward
his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to
his nature or his character.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination
and prior to the time that you heard Oswald----
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say?
Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called
her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and
listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news.
That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was
mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said
almost nothing except----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was
involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being
involved?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went
home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the
Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the
theatre. But that was enough connection for me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching
discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my
action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and,
therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he
would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long
surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in
any crowd of Americans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have
any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two
samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving,
Tex.?
And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping
tape with which the packages are reconstructed?
Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is
3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes,
this is 3-inch tape.
Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I
had the impression it was a 2-inch tape.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities
inquired about this question before?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get
lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will
ask you some more questions about it.
Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to
Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at
the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI
will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape
which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was
at your premises on November 22?
Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is
presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly
recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it
had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you
remember?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of.
The desk--I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time
the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the
garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door
leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom
drawer.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any
possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he
presumably made this bag at your place?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142?
Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364.
Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the
garage itself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring
about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which
the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this
question?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never
been mentioned between yourself and your wife?
Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone.
I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that
morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he
did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is--we may
have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the
Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them
or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?
Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking
people, Ruth has mentioned the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about
them?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall
what she said about them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory
in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language,
subsequent to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter
Gregory's name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark.
Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have
met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover
moved to their house later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is
possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them?
Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?
Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I
was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch
it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring
a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce
it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I
didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. PAINE. Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At
one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name
like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he
introduced me to some--let's say no; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he
a close friend of yours?
Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas.
We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and
he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian
Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago
probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the
madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met
also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also
I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single
adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he?
Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist?
Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him?
Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's
house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also
would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know----
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?
Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with
Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but
I may have shaken his hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name--I
don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten
his name at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an
interpreter at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans.
Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Florence McDonald?
Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she?
Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal
groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or
something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I
think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who
shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who does?
Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from
Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear
stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I
haven't met him myself, I don't believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at
your office at one time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I
think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by
a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and
called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me
more than once on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order
to contact these women?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course,
sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was
living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time
there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out
of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about
Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to
call on her and Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me
was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I
told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would
like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget,
but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?
Mr. PAINE. She did; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.
Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M.
Shasteen?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex.
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the
name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I
was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there
and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess
I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad
haircut.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it
over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber
shops in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young
boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in
the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that
description?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I
was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.
Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin
Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that
Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party
check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market,
Supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on
Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is,
if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He
couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he
knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own?
Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model?
Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV?
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own?
Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds,
'55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?
Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I
bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.
Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that?
Mr. PAINE. '55.
Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since
November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that.
She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn,
not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the
whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of
communication she had with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?
Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble
operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering
wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it
in some other way.
Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission.
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or----
Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an
airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch.
Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?
Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability
to manipulate the controls?
Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when
they learn to drive a car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina
pocket money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed,
medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket
money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It
could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money
for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?
Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do
remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody
to pick him up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to
Irving is?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone
calls?
Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money.
Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you
please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him
at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any
money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?
Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical
records?
Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were
Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to
play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian
singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor
fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or
mail at your address in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but
the Worker, what is it called now?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker.
Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant
also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but
generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail
apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that
address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent
address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail
into a separate pile and I would pick it up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these
periodicals?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at
least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his
conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read
between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon
after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks
rolled by.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue
he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead
here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the
way he gets his communications from headquarters.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that
conversation.
Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an
afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I
remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said
this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why?
Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so
it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a
group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist
of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more
explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine.
And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't
mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between
the lines of a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that
he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding
any subject in the political field?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many
occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with
Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the
way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought
he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee
thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason
and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about
Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a
Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that
is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to
convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist
group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?
Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell
or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and
thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU
meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to
indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to
meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general
remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak,
what impression did he give you?
Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist
and he would like to meet him again, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that
evening at the meeting?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They
convene very infrequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?
Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a
registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU
member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr. PAINE. I probably would.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?
Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during
the time that Marina lived at your house?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the
weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?
Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would
sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a
position to say. I think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in
respect to those meals?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses
of the household?
Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I
would have been surprised had he done so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when
he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he
left?
Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth
has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a
piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe.
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your
presence?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the
Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted
to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to
live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I
inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how
come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he
was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation.
I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to
the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I
was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job,
but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he
would be a happier person.
Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too
directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it
was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was
projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as
were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that
he must feel in regard to the job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was
responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was
responsible for his losing a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised
from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and
Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was
packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work,
people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he
also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money
than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have.
It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to
myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must
show through to his employer.
This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must
happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later
or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it,
I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate
reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the
FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?
Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with
anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate,
told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused
him to lose jobs?
Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this
to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read
this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was
a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written,
typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she
gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I
didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the
notorious FBI.
Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She
hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico,
which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true
and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little
bit about his--also, I think----
Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI?
Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And
also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI
had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee
seemed to resent that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show
you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter
from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it
was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what
he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and
they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that
they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the
heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said,
"Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English?
Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore,
yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter?
Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other
magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and
I didn't really shift attention too well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards?
Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close
attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it
must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and
she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the
furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a
Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember
what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread
the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have
read it correctly in her hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and
the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up
until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe
shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw
him?
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one
preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think
there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday
party.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not,
approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that
his birthday was October 18?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but----
Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each
weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the
assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend,
was it not?
Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend,
Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then?
Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the
last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft
of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that
weekend or after that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the
house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember
when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read
the letter or not?
Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One
would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have
looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read
the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different
point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again.
Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she
showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come
to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the
Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would
have shown me the letter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of
his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?
Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication.
And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was
reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my
magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she----
Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the
letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me
to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it?
Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want
me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind
looking at it."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with
Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?
Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been
in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think
Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had
apparently known and deceived her in this matter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little
charm made out of Mexican peso.
Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until
the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used
the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these
little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out
a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she
realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about
it until afterward.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the
assassination, with your wife?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a
record of Mexican music?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her
relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of
October up to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met
Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met
them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly
to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little
fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in
discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening
at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion,
and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so.
Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he
was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was
made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.
But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager
to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager
that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina
thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out
of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here
if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me
as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious,
so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until
she could make her own way here.
It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for
her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was
costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much.
Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina?
Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad
with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or
I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to
stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but
would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And
she was a nice companion for Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got
along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort
of thing?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that
were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain
rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when
you last saw them?
Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then?
Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf
above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them
down, or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at
any time?
Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my
recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have.
TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK
The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on
March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert
E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the
President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the
President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963.
Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in
touch with you, did he not?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and
the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain,
evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result
of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine
prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some
of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some
conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time.
Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006
Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co.
Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational
background is, Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to
Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex.
And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St.
Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg
to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex.
Graduated in 1950.
I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school.
Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have
to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August
of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of
1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956.
Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated
from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell
Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just
about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you
the exact dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell
Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on
what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that
adequate?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what
circumstances?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly.
I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at
the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and
on up through now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties
Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do
remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas
when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting,
and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.
Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian
lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember
his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who
had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he
defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he
came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not
capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't
accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had
taken Marina to help her for the time being.
That was the reference made to him prior to having met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael
Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that
period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once
a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little
different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He
commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he
had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and
support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he
apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and
when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the
man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value.
They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat
down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be
the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him.
Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my
chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As
the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there
was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the
meeting said prior to the film starting.
They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some
form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington
State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating
that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently
she had had connections during her college days but had severed
relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an
investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no
connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how
the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen
that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the
film.
After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and
about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the
integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first
notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about
General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but
anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made
further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the
General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he
had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior.
Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr.
Stevenson came to Dallas?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night.
I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it
struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was
anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote
that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said.
He didn't say what General Walker had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker
either by words or by his deeds?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me
prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before
that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red,
and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he
thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening
to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he
was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker.
He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that
General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading
a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular
violent thoughts towards General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent
until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General
Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they
discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when
Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists
would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I
really don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which
Stevenson had had his difficulty?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think
just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to
Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the
General Walker group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only
remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was
the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but
anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as
General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The
group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly
whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to
you, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and
addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate,
intelligent, or was he not that way?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement.
After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about
economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was
the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was
saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression
on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the
conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was
directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was
irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his
attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking
down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a
certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the
argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different
spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't
accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different
avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the
discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what
he said and what you said and what the argument was about.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the
back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not
sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure
there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee.
Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room
together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had
told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood
that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to
offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind
of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then.
I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we
talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I
told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he
had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he
commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that.
I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments
were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said
that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just
what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes
a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own.
I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at
least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present
time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad
to work for him for the salary I got.
He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in
any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to
know if I thought that was fair or not?
And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I
feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer.
I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay
them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are
real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts.
My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the
material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour
from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the
work, and my wage is comparable to my investment.
He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he
commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it
is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the
worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring
to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the
conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom.
I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well,
they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he
said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We
were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United
States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil
liberties.
I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference
to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine
job, a real good job, I have forgotten.
Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in
reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time
he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is
doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what
he said.
He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate
impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later
and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael
brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with
Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary
words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression,
but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying
rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis
that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a
good job as far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed.
After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an
emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him
placing emphasis on the way he said it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward
President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in
general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the
impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other
government official, during the course of his conversation with you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine
comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying
around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It
was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that
he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the
FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was after?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you
had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any
government official or toward the government in general? Would that be
a fair statement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time
sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down.
Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and
we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was
before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against
all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this
impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression
beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards.
I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers
and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able
to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this
might possibly extend to law enforcement officials.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of
authority? There was resentment of his employers?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk
about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I
talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the
only meeting you ever had with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on
television.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation
with him during that time at the ACLU meeting?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in
reference to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU
meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You
are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly
what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I
addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist."
Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist
and indicated he was not a Communist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those
theories?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you----
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at
the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the
worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia
they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he
stated that it is worse than here. He did say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia
than it is in the United States?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. And the State exploited the worker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you any desire to return to the Soviet
Union?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to go to any other country?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. To me; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had
been active in the Fair Play for Cuba?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read
about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or
Communist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. His only comment was that, "I am a Marxist."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member
of any group, Marxist or Communist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that he
defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist,
now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red,
and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to
offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind
of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a
dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him
giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him
on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met
him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat
better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the
conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be
said, and I like to talk too.
We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was
more of an argument.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of
your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist
or Marxist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I
am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific
organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific
group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of
your conversation with him?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection,
the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that
occasion?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we
talked more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the
Marines?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had
been in the Marines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable
discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his
impressions while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the
conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism
versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the
pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was
just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to
capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the
Soviet Union were a general remark?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of
job he had?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards,
if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic
firm or electrical industry.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the
Soviet Union other than you have already told us?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we
were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And
he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The
money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any
particular sense of humor to you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me
as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and
sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed
notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up
regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up
that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your
argument with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what
Michael said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went
on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no
point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind.
He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of
person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or
make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has
sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you
have the same impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your
(conversation) discussion with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him
just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I
didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have
talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there
wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react.
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar
experiences?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk
economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk
to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that
he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that
it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't
particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed
image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any
periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political
questions of the time that you discussed?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying
to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so
darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to
strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist
literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from
the news media that I heard this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael
Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really.
Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was
the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child
prior to that time.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French
Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me
to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was
taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took
him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any
rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth
out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the
baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me
to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite.
I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan
to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke
to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and
Marina said I am talking too Texan.
At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful
little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she
commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can
remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there
is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have
a compliment. At least I felt complimented.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was
the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to
her in English?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to
Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking
too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment.
At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just
a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember
exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and
I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth
entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and
totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I
talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean
I talked to her rather than with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second
child. Is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at
that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's
father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but
one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for
his future shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior
to his buying the land.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been
invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend.
I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy
this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time,
and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew
back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at
work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting
with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his
father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an
international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who
was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and
he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine
had given in Los Angeles is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he
was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person,
and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other
people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I
remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't
remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't
remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in
my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or
other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They
were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That
doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression
I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like
that. They were just very, very different.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been
active in the affairs of the Communist Party?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he
said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was
some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic
interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does
your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his
father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does,
that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That
was Michael's comment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very
little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los
Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000,
and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he
didn't have the money.
I had that impression because he commented that there was time for
him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the
coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was
really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was
time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't
have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000,
for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he
had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his
stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had,
if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two
places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that
he had gotten it from his father.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't
know. These are impressions that I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the
purpose of visiting his father?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that
his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and
he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this
was the discussion prior to his leaving.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell
Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell
Helicopter business. I am aware of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on
Bell Helicopter business?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would
have told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by
my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think
that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all
honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and
if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he
shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it,
because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing
on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him
shortly after the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with
his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he
bought this tract in Irving?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the
President had been shot?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the
radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel
parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the
laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for
him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I
believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we
were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in,
they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and
switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the
Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was
shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit.
Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through,
this is official that the President of the United States has been
fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little
while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital,
and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and
both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that
they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And
finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the
President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He
had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried.
And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile
tears in seriousness.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact
that the President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with
him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and
drink my can of Metrecal.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with
Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both
in the lab?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael
has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the
President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that
the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them,
myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered
right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the
one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about
the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned
from lunch?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report.
As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was
there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when
the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had
died.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a
thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any
immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a
terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first
immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have
had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that.
And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists
would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch
people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through
that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area,
and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to
the Texas School Book Depository.
I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that
Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School
Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You
don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him."
At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could
really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing
that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do
such an act.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of
Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had
learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston
near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said
that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment
was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says,
"That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?"
And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have
been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit----
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one
to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between
you and Michael Paine, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of
the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job
there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time
I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had
one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right
back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works."
And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I
just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You
don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it
wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we
heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after
that that it came through that the Oswald fellow had been captured,
had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have
forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The
stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing.
He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun."
And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not
even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten.
We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would
the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain,
he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything
personal, and we discussed it.
That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists
want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a
rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He
said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that
Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun."
That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a
gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right
now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression----
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed
to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I
remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had
any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention
Oswald's name?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had
associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in
connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it
was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing
of oppression and worry at that particular time.
It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to,
that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are,
and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And
I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was
him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist
Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something,
his was the name that came to my mind, possibly.
I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me
about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I
heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his
name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they
come to mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in
connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael
Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very
shortly after the word had come through?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt
that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to
be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking
questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say,
if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been
publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being
apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if
I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported
that--can we go back just a little bit?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Surely.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had
come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they
put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about
the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald
works.
Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that
fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it
could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his
arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at
that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I
think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being
sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I
don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after
that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald
having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the
description given fitted Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we
should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at
that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it
could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald
was--works in the School Book Depository.
They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description
and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They
commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they
arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after
Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit.
I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the
FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do
right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way
in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him."
And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans,
that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been
Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He
is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the
best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would
have been what he meant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael
didn't want to advise the FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a
little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He
doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean,
the least little bit.
I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company
on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he
will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very
careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can.
At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking
movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a
railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735
and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did
he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a United
States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said
he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the
future.
It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this
date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't
know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of
it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking
pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him,
and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I
got his license number of his car, also.
The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and
Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a
public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the
public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs
said on the fence.
If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check
and faithfully check it out.
I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the
security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I
wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it
was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he
said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and
a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing
wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had
him arrested on the spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI
in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude
that you explained in the situation you have just described?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A
fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said,
"Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he
said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you
call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said,
"No, I take a man at his word."
He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you
have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in
his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth
civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue
him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked
out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of
his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from
Washington?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give
them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about
the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him.
He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details.
At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station
in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for
himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been
checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the
Commission should know about in connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination.
In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his
apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is
on the surface.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events
leading up to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think
if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have
avoided the President being shot.
He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out
that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved
in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a
blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort
of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping
equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it
might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30
inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of
approximately 27 inches.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches
different from that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the
length of about 27 inches?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to
the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in
reference to the weapon.
Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not
have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to
killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't
believe in violence at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine,
is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to
tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at
this point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your
time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning
to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is
important.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the
Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our
house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel
that I know Michael fairly well.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any
judgment about her character?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I
have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person.
I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would
say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know
her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well
enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with
him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't
actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with
him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to
love him as much as I love my brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you
have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the
assassination, do you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is
all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their
charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be
associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I
won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael
told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you
have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning.
Thank you, Mr. Krystinik.
Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the
transcript, is that so?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Transcriber's Notes:
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant
preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be
due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of
conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be
periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at
the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at
the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so
faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and
corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be
available at LibraryBlog.
Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.
Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none
changed.
"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on
page 447.
Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.
Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.
Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt";
changed here.
Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not
changed.
Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.
Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see";
changed here.
Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be
"apolitical".
Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".
Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as
"kidnaped"; changed here.
Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you";
changed here.
Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was
misprinted as "huband"; changed here.
Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not
changed.
Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed
here.
Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.
Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed
here.
Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.
Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.
Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government."
appear to be missing from the Testimony.
Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular";
changed here.
Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as
"Manantov"; all have been changed here.
Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".
Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as
"expresed"; changed here.
Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.
Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally";
changed here.
Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for
consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".
Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and
capitalized that way.
Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when
he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.
Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.
Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.
Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.
Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".
Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you
know".
Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available
at LibraryBlog. The other volume referenced in that footnote
probably is Volume III, which is available at LibraryBlog.
Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in
that position.
Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.
Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.
Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed
here.
Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".
Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".
Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".
Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".
Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".
*** End of this LibraryBlog Digital Book "Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)" ***
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