Home
  By Author [ A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H  I  J  K  L  M  N  O  P  Q  R  S  T  U  V  W  X  Y  Z |  Other Symbols ]
  By Title [ A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H  I  J  K  L  M  N  O  P  Q  R  S  T  U  V  W  X  Y  Z |  Other Symbols ]
  By Language
all Classics books content using ISYS

Download this book: [ ASCII | HTML | PDF ]

Look for this book on Amazon


We have new books nearly every day.
If you would like a news letter once a week or once a month
fill out this form and we will give you a summary of the books for that week or month by email.

Title: Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
As this book started as an ASCII text book there are no pictures available.
Copyright Status: Not copyrighted in the United States. If you live elsewhere check the laws of your country before downloading this ebook. See comments about copyright issues at end of book.

*** Start of this Doctrine Publishing Corporation Digital Book "Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)" ***

This book is indexed by ISYS Web Indexing system to allow the reader find any word or number within the document.



www.history-matters.com.



    INVESTIGATION OF

    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President's Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ IX


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O'BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.


Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX:
Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen,
Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis,
Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne
De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service;
Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962.



Contents


                                           Page
    Preface                                   v

    Testimony of--
      Paul M. Raigorodsky                     1
      Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie)           27
      Thomas M. Ray                          38
      Samuel B. Ballen                       45
      Lydia Dymitruk                         60
      Gary E. Taylor                         73
      Ilya A. Mamantov                      102
      Dorothy Gravitis                      131
      Paul Roderick Gregory                 141
      Helen Leslie                          160
      George S. De Mohrenschildt            166
      Jeanne De Mohrenschildt               285
      Ruth Hyde Paine                  331, 426
      John Joe Howlett                      425
      Michael R. Paine                      434
      Raymond Franklin Krystinik            461


EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

                                           Page
    Commission Exhibit No. 364               93

    De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.:
       1                                    277
       2                                    278
       3                                    279
       4                                    279
       5                                    279
       6                                    279
       7                                    279
       8                                    279
       9                                    279
      10                                    279
      11                                    279
      12                                    282
      13                                    282
      14                                    282
      15                                    282
      16                                     26

    Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.:
      1                                     437
      2                                     441

    Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.:
      270                                   408
      271                                   408
      272                                   411
      273                                   411
      274                                   411
      275                                   424
      276                                   424
      277                                   426
      277-A                                 429
      277-B                                 430
      278                                   432
      278-A                                 432
      461                                   347
      469                                   390

    Raigorodsky Exhibit No.:
      9                                      25
      10                                     25
      10-A                                   25
      10-B                                   25
      11                                     26
      11-A                                   26
      14                                     26
      14-A                                   26



Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY

The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March
31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.


Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are
about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is
in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides
in Dallas.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Stoneleigh Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. Who resides at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas.

Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the
Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is
the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving
on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the
attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective
investigations.

The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the
U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson
by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The
Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of
depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the
assassination of President Kennedy.

We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted
with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you
are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to
have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think
you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using
the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of
Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I
understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.

Mr. JENNER. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us
in that regard?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us
your general background, just give us your general background--when you
came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. My background?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, commencing--I don't know where to start, please?

Mr. JENNER. Well, where were you born?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was,
oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to
the university there.

Mr. JENNER. You did what, sir?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I went to the university there and I am escaping from
Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and
then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross
and the YMCA.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920.

Mr. JENNER. 1940?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1920.

Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sixty-five--exactly.

May I have this not on the record?

Mr. JENNER. All right.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I came to this country.

Mr. JENNER. In 1920?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they
advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United
States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air
Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received
an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of
war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to
this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't
been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and
graduated in 1924.

Mr. JENNER. What degree?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even
though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in
different subjects.

By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds,
and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat.

And, that was in 1924--then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I
simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret
McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank--a Governor or
whatever you call it.

Mr. JENNER. Federal Reserve Bank?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918--he was
appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then,
I stayed in California for some--from 1924 until more or less--until
1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a Dallas concern?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; that was a California concern, specializing in
the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for
Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.--just,
that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another,
getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton
Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that
time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction
engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we
organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and
we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to
Dallas because our business was good--I was sent to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Your business was growing?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized
an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the
Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened
an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of
plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third
in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum
Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just
now--it is inoperative.

Then, I continued to--I opened an office in Houston and continued
to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum
Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and
in the United States--lots of them--even in Russia, though I never
went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were
supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you
know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I had an order
from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this
should be off the record?

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let's see, now, Pearl Harbor was in 1939?

Mr. JENNER. 1941; December of 1941.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1941?

Mr. DAVIS. 1941.

Mr. JENNER. December 8th.

Mr. DAVIS. The war started in 1939.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Poland in September 1939.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Already then we had the War Production Board, though
to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board,
but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was
it? Probably 1941--before the war.

Mr. JENNER. Before the war with Japan, you mean?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Before Pearl Harbor.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the
Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the
United States, which I did, and then I had to open--I worked under
DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five
offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston
and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got
ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I
resigned and came back to my business.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By
the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants
for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline
products, and the first plant was built in 1936--the Glen Rose Gasoline
Co. The second one was built in 1943--the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then,
I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my
back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me
there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't
speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me
to Dallas.

That's very interesting what I am going to tell you--in an ambulance
from Houston--and there was a Dr. Paul Williams--he told me that
without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to
Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I
moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people
that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they
had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and
barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever
since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952--in 1952 I was asked
by--you know General Anderson, by any chance?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was what we call--there was an organization in
Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an
Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a
Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe
and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the
production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO
countries.

I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along
all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew
me--they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By
the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card.

(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)

I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't
return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and
I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I
came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to
different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti,
Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in Jamaica together with some
other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l
[spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all.
My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't
retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has
nothing to do with the----

Mr. JENNER. With the Longshoremen?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off
the record now.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record.)

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the
second marriage. Then, I have another daughter--maybe you know my
son-in-law, Howard Norris?

Mr. DAVIS. Where is he--in Washington?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Howard Lee Norris, he graduated, I think, in 1951 or
1952.

Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. What business is he in?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Lawyer of the University of Texas.

Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am very proud of that. That's my child.

(At this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to Counsel
Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. This is your daughter on the left?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. And, I will answer anything else you want to now.

Mr. JENNER. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened
to your splendid career, I assume that--and if this assumption is
wrong, please correct me--that the people of Russian descent who came
into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance,
that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest
in those people in the community and that in any event you became
acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this
general area--in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Louise, will you get me my church file?

(Addressing his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek.)

Mr. JENNER. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in
general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in
here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of
Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought
I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the
Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with
them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you
to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what
your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people
coming--like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community?

Let's not make it Marina Oswald--I don't want to get into a specific,
but let's take a hypothetical couple?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the
many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas.

There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities
in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship,
acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but
with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation--you
are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund?

Mr. JENNER. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader
may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the
Tolstoy Foundation.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our
great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came
to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes
care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be.
They process them, which means that they know all about them before
they come into here through their own organization or your different
organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States--you have
a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that
want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to
the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to
place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country
but--I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation--but also
in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United
States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy
Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked,
rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean,
that's the No. 1 stamp.

Mr. JENNER. That's the No. 1 stamp of an approval or of their
genuineness?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of approval--in fact, the U.S. Government recognized
that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy
Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work.

Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in
through acquaintanceship--most of them.

Mr. JENNER. They come because of prior acquaintanceship?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. With some.

Mr. JENNER. With some people who are here?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--correspondence you see. Like we have
in Houston--we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know,
Yugoslavia--the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia
and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian
colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled
in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and
lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel.

Mr. JENNER. They followed?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear
from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy
Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here.
They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where
you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let's have this on the record.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, because of my--I always believe that even though
I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the
only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this
country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church
in Texas--at Galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the
Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out,
whether they were one side of the fence or the other.

Mr. JENNER. One side of what fence or the other?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only fence I know of is between the
communism and the anticommunism.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You are on the anticommunistic side of the fence?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh; of course.

Mr. JENNER. I want that to appear on record is why I asked.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe
in 1949 or thereabouts--I have donated quite a bit of money to the
Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they
would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest
of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church
there, which they did.

Mr. JENNER. What religion is that--the name of the church?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Russian--Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern
Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two
main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed
is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have
our own Patriarch at the head of our own church.

Mr. JENNER. In Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, no, no; we have in New York--it's Metropolitan
Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country.

Mr. JENNER. Who was the pastor over in Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I will come to that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, when we got to--when I came to Dallas we had
Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an
American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me
because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You must be acquainted with Father Royster?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about
the church here----

Mr. JENNER. The full name is Dimitri Robert Royster--go right ahead.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives
us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here
between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists
or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the
Guard.

Mr. JENNER. The original church that you helped organize, that is
referred to as the Old Guard?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we
both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them.

Mr. JENNER. You were the head of both churches?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong
to three churches.

Mr. JENNER. They are different parishes in the same church, aren't they?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like
to explain to you--you see, in this country--I'm quite sure you know--I
don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell
you about?

Mr. JENNER. I am primarily interested in this--from the depositions I
have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the
immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by
refugees who come here is through the church.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another
one--George Bouhe's folks.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name
of that one--what is that?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's St. Nicholas.

Mr. JENNER. That's the St. Nicholas Church?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I'm head of that one.

Mr. JENNER. You are head of that one?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you say it is a third one?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, it is not a third one here--just the two. Now you
see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again,
leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for
Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians,
Sicilians, or Lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for
the same religion even though their services in their own churches is
in their own language, but here they are all in the English language
because of Father Royster's.

Mr. JENNER. Father Royster preaches the sermons in English?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he
was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this
church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them--that
means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in
fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which Father Royster
organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between
Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it----

Mr. JENNER. St. Nicholas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas--so that Father Royster belongs to
Metropolitan Leonty--Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you
may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan
Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the
revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it.
Metropolitan Anastasia is the head of the Russians outside of Russia,
because he is--whether he escaped Russia like all of us--therefore,
all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that
church.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned
it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about
each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the
Bolsheviks--all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old
anti-Communist group--period.

Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because
nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there
except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought
against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston,
the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought
against communism and even though we came through different grounds,
some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so
we have a church over there.

Now, I personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is
my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't
make any difference to me--I tried to get them together and I didn't
succeed in that town. In Houston--I think that is because it is only
one church--it is more successful.

Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father
Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this
is hearsay--that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the
name of Clark.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I mean, that's all hearsay--I do not know it for a
fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very
close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and
lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my
understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends--again, this
is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they
don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding.
And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not
many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them
groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her
fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable.

Mr. JENNER. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal
sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches
that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well
acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each
other. They seek to help?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or
otherwise?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Those of Russian or Serbian or Central European derivation?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. About when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise
of----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That that happened that way?

Mr. JENNER. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your
attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their
names--I never saw them before the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--had you heard of the Oswald name?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, never had.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those
things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have
yearly meetings.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say yearly?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Once a year--we meet to elect officers. We meet once a
year to elect the officers.

Mr. JENNER. Is this true of both St. Nicholas and St. Seraphim?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend
to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now,
because, first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us
will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St.
Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there
are one or two of us left--it would be fine. You see, how we are at St.
Nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to
have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now
Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So,
our priest from Galveston comes up.

Mr. JENNER. Comes up here?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And I personally don't like him--so I wouldn't go to
the services in my own church on his account.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our
people from our Synod, you know.

Mr. JENNER. The Synod, S-y-n-o-d (spelling)?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who
will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but
the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any
better. We have about 10 families, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. When you say different--you mean here in Dallas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Dallas--yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the priest who comes up from Galveston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let me see--maybe I have it here.

(Examining file.)

Maybe he's not from Galveston--he comes from Houston, but he's the one
that was, you know,--can this be off the record--I just throw those
notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at
this point.)

Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet
document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information
Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have
perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding
the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at
its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through
the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other
parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have
this statement in the record, and will you please copy it.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have that--I have a photostat of it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to copy it in the record.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St.
Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church."

In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev.
Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox
Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster,
a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster)
sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language
Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically
that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the
organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas
Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston
was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the
Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral.

Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that
would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission.
Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and
Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since
the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel
and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky,
a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it
possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank
in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an
eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St.
Seraphim's Church.

Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel
conducted occasional services--Sunday Vespers weekly and an early
Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed
an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel
was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the
members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since
one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the
property.

On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood
by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly
afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734
McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two
groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month
and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time.

In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and
both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted.

Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October
31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the
Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St.
Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster.

For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father
Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander.

In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the
weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the
benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of
that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal
Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956.

In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and
to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's
Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at
4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were
arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building
served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March
and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In
1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The
house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a
rectory.

In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction
of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia.

Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to
approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy
has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with
two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday,
Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays
and on holy days.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is
entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern
Orthodox Church," when was that prepared?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I have no idea because I have--let's see--the early
part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything
historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or
can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something,
and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it."

Mr. JENNER. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this
historical summary?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you read this historical summary?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events
that are recited in that 1-page summary?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does
Father Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the
recital reasonably accurate?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does
not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here
he said:

"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish,
"and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St.
Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own."

Well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along
together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two
churches.

Mr. JENNER. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your
testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that
expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church,
that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the
English language.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were
said in what language, again?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal
reason either.

Mr. JENNER. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St.
Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the
sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian
origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Either fought or escaped.

Mr. JENNER. Fought the Communists or Bolsheviks or escaped from their
regime.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--because there are lots of women and children over
there, you see, they never fought against them.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not
fight.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. And because of that common experience they tended to stay
together?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--more closely knit.

Mr. JENNER. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of
the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas was organized to begin with.

Mr. JENNER. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it
and you are more active in that Church?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of
that group, are you not?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I am president.

Mr. JENNER. You are president of that group, but you are a member of
the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a
parishioner?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or
given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon?

Mr. DAVIS. I would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for
the split of the church?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I just made a statement a while ago.

Mr. DAVIS. I didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was
split?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean,
it's purely personality.

You see, Father Royster at that time--that's the main point--Father
Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians
it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to
the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained,
but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by
Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so
he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get
in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be
ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan,
B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the Ukranian branch of
Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and
so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic
facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and
in fact, Ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the
rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of
their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian.

Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I
mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but
verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked
me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek
Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened.

You see, some of the statements--like he said, "In September of 1958
the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to
that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia."

Well, he is Russian Metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country.

Mr. JENNER. The words "in this country" should be added there?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor,
but substantially, it is correct--what he said.

Mr. JENNER. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy
the historical statement into the record?

The REPORTER. Yes, sir.

(The instrument referred to is set forth on pp. 8 and 9 of this volume.)

Mr. JENNER. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and
otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the
views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with
respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I
understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas
Church.

Mr. JENNER. Largely?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. So--I don't know how that came about--perhaps she is
Russian. I can understand so much--she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is
Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox.

Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners,
by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There's no question about it.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the history, there's no question about
it--largely?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Largely.

Mr. JENNER. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one
major motivating force?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who
are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they
also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be
the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn
the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their
opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in
America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in
St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are
getting to--that is the first time I heard she was Russian--they told
me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and
that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald,
how they helped her and everything else and I asked them--"How did it
happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened.

Mr. JENNER. She went to St. Nicholas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; St. Seraphim's.

Mr. JENNER. And that caused what?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they
understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life.

Mr. JENNER. She did what?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life----

Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to
sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are
atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists.

Mr. JENNER. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized
in St. Seraphim's?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas
Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she
believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a
factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist,
because Communists are atheists?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but
there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct--which was that the Communists may have
been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way
to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community.

Mr. JENNER. Lead people to believe that you were a Christian?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And not an atheist?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined
and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one
thing?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see--I don't trust them in any kind of a condition
or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any
difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful--it's just like Mr.
Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know,
lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he
lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how
they operate.

Mr. JENNER. Did there in due course come into this community a man by
the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you were here when he came here, were you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in
Dallas while I was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to
see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere
in that neighborhood.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of him prior to that time?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I heard of him through Jake Hamon.

Mr. JENNER. Through Mr. Hamon?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Hamon, H-a-m-o-n [spelling]--Jake.

Mr. JENNER. Who is he?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known,
and he told me there was a Russian here--do I know him, and I said,
"No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him--at a party.

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to
the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and
acquire some knowledge of his origin and background?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his
history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some
of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning
the business associations or contacts you may have had with him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt
comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.

Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by
the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and
they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations
and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know,
and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de"
Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.

Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"--yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand
that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the
University of Chicago.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the University of Chicago or Dartmouth?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Or what?

Mr. JENNER. Dartmouth, or the University of Chicago?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It might be, now, but at that time when I first
learned it--he was at the University of Chicago.

Mr. JENNER. And his first name?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say his first name was?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I thought you gave it to me the other day?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe I could get it from some other source?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--not from me. Now, when I first knew George he
was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in
Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his
own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil
operator.

He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first
wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife.

Mr. JENNER. What is her name?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember; I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. But you have met her?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is
next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was--that's where
this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the
Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. Was her name Wynne, W-y-n-n-e [spelling]?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; we called her something else--it will come to
me--just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were
spastic.

Mr. JENNER. Was a boy and a girl?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. One of them since died.

Mr. JENNER. The boy?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my
understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as
I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and
when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim
the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts,
but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and
my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit,
that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to
Dallas and join this Russian community?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And be a member, because----

Mr. JENNER. A member of what?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of the social group that they were here originally.
You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you
it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the
suit--whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs.
Crespi can give you more information than that.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. whom?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one
who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that
time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been
borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time.
The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly.

Mr. JENNER. The last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; $500.

Mr. JENNER. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you
can't recall at the moment?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Isn't that funny?

Mr. JENNER. And he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that
correct?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he married a third time?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A third time.

Mr. JENNER. And is that his present wife?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And who is she?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question----

Mr. JENNER. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your
recollection?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean.

Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she
was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that
she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our
form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist,
Anarchist or what.

Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl.

Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was
either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age--came
to China?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that
she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never
expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of
Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You
know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel
Jenner off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to
the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political
views?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you
say--"And political views?"

Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then
his wife, Jean.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that
after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De
Mohrenschildt?

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems
from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times,
he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the
Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to
provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would
like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but
in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had
some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes
him tick?

He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and
we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his
personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with
you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the
political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a
character?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and
believe me, that's the only time--first of all, I've got George De
Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club.

Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding.

Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle.

Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain
set of Russian emigre?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have
against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a
donation.

Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt
like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he
never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me
any political questions or give me his views except one time when he
went to take the trip--the walking trip.

Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border
down to Panama?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was
elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico.

Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags
about things--he was bragging about many things.

Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he
met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why
didn't he shoot this b----d?

Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?"

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding
smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire.

Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative
in his attire in the sense of nonconforming?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best
definition I can give you.

Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a
by-the-Baltic German accent.

Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it
is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think
she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was
definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George--now this
is again my idea----

Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your
idea.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I
don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George
in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give
him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a
religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead
the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything
but the Spartan life in this country.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when
he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal,
maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can
remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about
and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. To the banker--the banker--Commercial de Haiti. You
can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you
want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time--he was
trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with
Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and
they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could
pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get
people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I
believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of
Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's.

Mr. JENNER. Down through Mexico?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI
and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or
nothing."

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. John De Menil?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine.
He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go
with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as
to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the
Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every
country in the world--you know what I am trying to say?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I do. I am familiar with the name Schlumberger.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And that he might be interested in going in business
in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and
nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down
after the investigation.

Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some
correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things
began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I
thought I better keep a file on him.

Mr. JENNER. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the
works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; you know, he was consultant to the Yugoslav
Government?

Mr. JENNER. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government.
In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of
our Government, maybe--I don't know under what protocol that we were
helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in
order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some
man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--I can say this--I
don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him
because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times,
but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and
asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give
him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he
wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What
could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly
all right, I mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer.

Mr. JENNER. And that's your opinion of him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field
is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of
underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job,
and as far as I know he quit the job--he was not fired.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community
for truth and veracity?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this--I
don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person.

Mr. JENNER. His reputation in that respect is poor or bad?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.

Mr. JENNER. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of
morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.

Mr. JENNER. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability
in the profession which he pursues?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Good.

Mr. JENNER. For example--as a petroleum geologist?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; petroleum engineer--good. His knowledge of
languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I
believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there,
where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also
went there at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal
American? If he has a reputation?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now,
remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you
see, than he was before with his second wife.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds
was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his
friends.

Mr. JENNER. From a prior social circle?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he met them--I don't know where he met them,
but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was
originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt
in Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the last 5 years, let's say?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and
George Brown--they are brothers.

Mr. JENNER. What business are they in?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, again, don't put this down.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr.
Raigorodsky, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Now; I want this on the record.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George has been friends with many, many influential
people in many cities.

Mr. DAVIS. In all of them, I imagine.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of
important people?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--he was my friend, I was his friend--he was Jake
Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend.

Mr. DAVIS. How often did De Mohrenschildt see him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jake?

Mr. DAVIS. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and
George Brown?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite
often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to
deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any particular business that he had in
Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.

Mr. JENNER. What information do you have regarding his interests or
business in Houston--I take it that it came from his making statements
to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, except in his dealing with John De
Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters--you
see, there is a copy from John De Menil.

Mr. JENNER. Where do you have information as to whether he was required
to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He--I can't answer that.

Mr. JENNER. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in
Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sure.

Mr. JENNER. He is a professor at Rice Institute?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--he's head of the Russian church in
Houston.

Mr. JENNER. He is the head of the Russian church in Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--I'm a
godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr.
Jitkoff's background.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. Jitkoff--he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you
call it.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he, by the way, your best guess?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is
younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is 50 some odd
years--55.

Mr. JENNER. He is closer to 50 than to 60?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Is he somewhere between 50 and 60?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a
tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club.

Mr. JENNER. Where--Dallas or Houston?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is
teaching Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Was De Mohrenschildt an athletic man?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so.

Mr. JENNER. Is he interested in tennis?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; very much so.

Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically
inclined person?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Also interested in tennis?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport
to the extent of engaging in the sport itself?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. As far as I know--swimming.

Mr. JENNER. Ice skating?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember anything about that, but they always
played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they
played tennis all the time.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of them ever live in the Stoneleigh Hotel?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same
people--the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace--the
Tower Terrace.

Mr. JENNER. Are these buildings all in proximity one with the other?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the
Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to being an expansive person, is De
Mohrenschildt a generous man?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I would say he is a generous man.

Mr. JENNER. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the
goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in
like circumstances?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say he will do it because he wants to show
what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It
would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were
appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk.

Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere,
while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and
sincere about it?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for
example?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. And was he a man given to extreme statements in public?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a
big party--I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I
met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at
a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons
and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do
it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would
say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever
it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and
somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's
the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest,
but we didn't know how much truth there was to it.

Mr. JENNER. And would you give us the reason for that view?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he's liable to do anything.

Mr. JENNER. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no
control over himself, really?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's what it is--because of his character.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the
type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he
might hesitate to do himself?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business
in which he is engaged in Haiti?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government,
it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I
think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan
or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there--he
is there, and moved his furniture.

Mr. JENNER. That's so--in the spring of 1963?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have had correspondence with him since?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De
Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate
almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything
else in it.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here is a letter of June 30 that must have been left
here.

Mr. JENNER. Is this June 30, 1963, or 1962?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It must be 1963--yes, it is 1963.

Mr. JENNER. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of
November 22--I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he
had been in Dallas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. After this--that's right; I see it is 1963, after this
fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas--which I was called on.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your
testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife
Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with
the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's
son.

As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe
sued directly, to see what you could do to help out?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; friends of her family.

Mr. JENNER. Friends of her family?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, Mrs. Crespi, appealed to me to see what I can
do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Crespi?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her
husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.--a cotton
exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Crespi?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What do you understand Mr. De Mohrenschildt is doing over
in Haiti?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Over there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground
floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is
the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy
plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted
to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build
plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You
see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist
in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and
all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be
interested.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of
an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't a sort of--he is adolescent.

Mr. JENNER. He is adolescent?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George will never grow old.

Mr. JENNER. But will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He always did.

Mr. JENNER. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that
amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. When we were 16--that's right--any kind of pranks.

Mr. JENNER. He is a prankster?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean,
his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys
it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very
effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned.

Mr. DAVIS. Would you say he is very distinct----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There is no word for that--very engaging, I suppose
would be the nearest.

Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think
De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Occasionally.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with the Haitian venture?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he sought to have me to participate in the deal.

Mr. JENNER. And you did or didn't?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And that was to be what kind of a deal?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he
was planning to do.

(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken
from your file. There is handwriting on the chart--is that George De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he send that chart to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; here's the envelope.

Mr. JENNER. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which
the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12,
1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of what he plans to do there.

Mr. JENNER. Of what he planned to do?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows
he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking,
cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill,
weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available
for these industries."

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information that he is surveying the
physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is
how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting
jobs.

Mr. JENNER. For the Haitian Government?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. For the Haitian Government.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you
informed?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know--I am not informed.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was
legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am
getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior
character?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I
think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John
De Menil.

Mr. JENNER. Which he was sending to John De Menil?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a copy for me.

Mr. JENNER. It is to John De Menil?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would I have your permission to have these documents in
your file duplicated?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.

Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would
have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously
pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in
which it was originally?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will be able to go through it with you.

(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs.
Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to
comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing
office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as
requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition
continued as follows:)

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows
what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and
everything.

Mr. JENNER. There were two files there, as I recall it.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have them both--the other one is on the well
operation.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I understand. You were participating with him in some
drilling?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to
anything?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. One dry hole and one other. I want to ask you
something?

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H.
Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of
mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country.
We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago.
His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production
Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several
oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in
contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that
Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number
and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he
will come over here.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De
Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, I'm sure he is.

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Basil Zavoico?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who is he?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Basil--he is a Russian. His father was a general in
the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been--his primary
business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant
on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been
with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a
business of his own mostly connected with oil financing.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at one time reside in Dallas?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he resided in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George
De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings.
Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with
George than I had.

Mr. JENNER. And he lives in Green Farms, Conn.?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything
that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first,
in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and
secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and
interests of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told--it
is a hearsay--that after meeting Marina Oswald--the way Russians met,
there was a party somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. There was what?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A party--a social gathering.

Mr. JENNER. A party?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Somewhere--I don't remember where.

Mr. JENNER. Here in this country?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several
Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with
Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of
everything that they told me that stuck in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this
party?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say that Mr. Bouhe and Anna Meller.

Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other
Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party.

Mr. JENNER. We have had some off the record discussions all in the
presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred
during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have
failed to bring out.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off
of the record.

Now, may I say something myself?

Mr. JENNER. Certainly.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Would you care to know what my opinion of the
assassination is, or is that just an opinion?

Mr. JENNER. All right; let's have it.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I still believe it is a conspiracy.

Mr. JENNER. Well, on what do you base that opinion?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have read--I'm quite sure everything that you
have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these
interrogations.

There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like
Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the
basis of your opinion in that respect?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them
operating, you know.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off
the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, I want that on the record.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well--the fact that they gave you all of the record,
they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around
in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out
of Russia--I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person
whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was
(snapping his fingers) so--just like that. It just reads too much like
a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they
surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things
which he received in Russia and in this country.

Now, Marina, I don't know anything about her.

Mr. JENNER. This is your supposition and rationalization on your part?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now. I have your file----

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now you take anything you want out of it.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's do it this way--I have your file which you
have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt."

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will just identify these documents.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You don't need to.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I need it for my record.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, all right.

Mr. JENNER. I am not questioning you.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'm not questioning you.

Mr. JENNER. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate
telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or
what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a
circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
1].

What are they and how did you get those?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent them to me.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt sent that to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United
States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove
to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United
States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information
about him.

Mr. JENNER. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a
letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston,
Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the
second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand
corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."

In whose handwriting is that notation?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. His.

Mr. JENNER. That is in George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and this was the--outlining a project in
Haiti and the West Indies.

Mr. JENNER. And was there an outline enclosed?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian
Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George
De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National
Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.]

That was enclosed with the letter?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline,
and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned.

Mr. JENNER. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page
carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be
the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1,
1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De
Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. These documents were transmitted to you. Did you save the
envelope?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.]

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this looks like it.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in
his handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's August 1962?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's it.

Mr. JENNER. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read
that for me?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, yes; it is the Banque Commerciale D'Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles."
This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.]

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a photostat.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt send that to you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On or about July 31, 1962, or shortly thereafter.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next document consists of--it looks like an
organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.]

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart
of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. And here again there is some longhand writing in ink.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that De Mohrenschildt's writing?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And his signature?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And he also has written on there "Dallas, September 11,
1962."

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was
transmitted to you, too?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to
what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
10.] And just a diagram?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything else accompany that diagram?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, I'm quite sure nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.--is that what that is?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no; that's De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt.
Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas."

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It has a signature by "Tardieu". How did you come by that?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent it to me.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16],
appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr.
Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt."
On the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize
the handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's signed by George.

Mr. JENNER. It's George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that
letter is you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the memorandum is for you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the
upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue
stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston,
Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then
apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and he investigated it later.

Mr. JENNER. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he
is not interested?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. But read this.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

    "Dear Paul:

    George De Mohrenschildt is a nice man, but I do not think his
    project is very well cooked. It is slightly visionary and not
    specific at all. This, of course, is my own personal reaction
    which I am giving you for your confidential information. It was
    also the reaction of my friend on Wall Street to whom I talked
    in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea
    of George De Mohrenschildt.

    With kinds regards and best wishes,

    Yours sincerly,

        /S/ JOHN DE MENIL
                cp
              John de Menil

    JdM:cp

    Dictated by Mr. de Menil over the telephone from New York."

The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962,
with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit
No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You
received that, did you?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary;
is that correct?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. The next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to Mr.
George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August
27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No.
10-B.]

From whom did you receive that?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. From Mr. de Menil.

Mr. JENNER. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The
envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May
11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First
National Building, Dallas, Tex.

Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was it a card enclosed in that envelope?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next is an original of a letter addressed to
Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M."
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.]

Is that George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that
letter in his handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you received that in due course?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This was written from Port-au-Prince.

Mr. JENNER. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans
Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.]

The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts,
it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over
the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt,"
and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner
is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.]

That is a letter to you, is it?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to
you, it looks like that is his handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, that George's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September
12, 1963, was enclosed?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, I'm sure it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked
in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his
testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks
like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it
has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted,
accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note
on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18,
1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.]

It begins, "Dear Paul," and is signed by "Geo. De M."

Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's
handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, they are.

Mr. JENNER. And was the card enclosed in the envelope here?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, and here is another letter.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on
both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at
Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 4.]

Do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, Mr.
Raigorodsky?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. De Mohrenschildt's.

Mr. JENNER. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June
30--of what year?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1963. This is very interesting--this is a map of
Haiti. You see where he sent me--he said "Our Shada Concession."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the
map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's George De Mohrenschildt's.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that from him?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one
of the letters.

Mr. JENNER. One of the letters I have identified?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But all of that is his handwriting?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil
possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession."

Mr. JENNER. What is "Shada"?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's where he claims he had the concessions for the
hemp.

Mr. JENNER. For hemp or sisal there?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sisal.

Mr. JENNER. These things will all show up on any photostat immediately
of this?

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has
authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified
them in the record, so one thing is helpful--I don't have to go to the
trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and
secondly, in the event--if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I
will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of
this questioning of you.

Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would
like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily,
also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to
the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to
here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been
under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this
personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the
foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11,
11-A, 14, and 14A.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost
at this moment as I was then.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been very helpful throughout this.

Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this
deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will
be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some
corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a
privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also
have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your
deposition is with respect to all these alternatives.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when
you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help
you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we thank you very much.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right, thank you.



TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)

The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T.
Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. LIEBELER. Come in Mr. and Mrs. Ray and sit down.

Mr. RAY. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed
it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we
are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, I'm sorry. You are supposed to have 3 days' notice.

Mr. RAY. That's all right. We're here now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this
time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you
before we start.

(Witness complying.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mrs. RAY. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; and I read it and have your name, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order
and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure
governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that
letter and copies of such documents?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed
to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday.

Mrs. RAY. Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose
technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not
have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you
are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that
correct?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the
events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was
held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related
to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about
meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas
during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into
that, would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. RAY. Me?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what is your full name?

Mrs. RAY. Natalie.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your last name is----

Mrs. RAY. Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. R-a-y [spelling]?

Mrs. RAY. R-a-y [spelling].

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence?

Mrs. RAY. Route 3, Detroit, Tex.--here, you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Where were you born?

Mrs. RAY. Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia?

Mrs. RAY. Stalingrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when were you born?

Mrs. RAY. In 1922, May 1922.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over
Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you
up and other Russian people?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp,
in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you in Germany?

Mrs. RAY. I been there until I come to America, 1946.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States;
what were the circumstances of your coming here?

Mrs. RAY. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated
by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and
then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send
us to Russia. At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers,
something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we
be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him,
well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at
home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American
man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will
not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get
marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that
they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I
am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending
all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I
have to stay until we get married. Well, they--Russians don't give me
permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became
as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could
marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah,
I guess 1945 or 1946--let me see, yeah, in 1945 because--or 1946. I
guess. I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were both in Germany at the time?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on,
you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come.
We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I
go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I
guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right; that's not important.

Mrs. RAY. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946,
I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to the United States with your husband,
is that correct?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; well, we stay year in Germany after we marry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then when he left Germany you came back to the United
States?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I go with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you an American citizen now?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I met them at this party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell
us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of
your recollection just how it happened.

Mrs. RAY. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris,
Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my
address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have
any--nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with Russian speaking people?

Mrs. RAY. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in
Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone
and said that--"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I
said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how
to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell
her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they
always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men
have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well,
I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have
contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr.
Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found
one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They
already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be.
She said on Friday--Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she
said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what
just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United
States.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this, is that right?

Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at
this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you
like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.

Mrs. RAY. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will
come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went
to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were there, approximately, would you say?

Mrs. RAY. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots
of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know
what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and
this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this
Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and
asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did
you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't
have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do
much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or--I said, "Oh,
that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have relatives in Russia now that you know of?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have a niece what I been--she write my mother passed
away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when
Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay
and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two
children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and
one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my
mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was she living in Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in
Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to----

Mr. LIEBELER. Kharkov?

Mrs. RAY. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's
not too far from Kharkov.

Mr. LIEBELER. I interrupted your story about your conversation with
Marina. Would you go on with that?

Mrs. RAY. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to
come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I
said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy
to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess
they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"--I let be get contact
now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get
her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and
I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you
want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her
husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody
and he speak just perfect Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak to you in Russian?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come
you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well,
he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You
just been three----

Mr. DAVIS. Excuse me, how long?

Mrs. RAY. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him,
I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh,
it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always
staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to
be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe
he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I
don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would
want to tell you the answer?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, always; he be very close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to
learn Russian?

Mrs. RAY. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian.
I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English";
I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak
Russian. He just came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect
a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3
years?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know
American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really,
it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak
Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia?

Mrs. RAY. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak
so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my
husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember
him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and
he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce
and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to
his wife, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with
Oswald as best you can recall it.

Mrs. RAY. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and
we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her
about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking
her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and
we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much
conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her where she lived when she was in Russia?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from
Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with
her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his
paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told
them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got
paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for
little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his
paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the
Russians; did she say?

Mrs. RAY. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go
back to America.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long they stayed in Moscow?

Mrs. RAY. She stayed 1 year.

Mr. LIEBELER. She said they were in Moscow 1 year?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American
Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow
before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian
Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her
paper and they left.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians gave her the papers?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina mention she had lived in Leningrad at one time?

Mrs. RAY. No; not that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in
Kharkov?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn what kind of job Oswald had while he was in
Russia?

Mrs. RAY. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory,
some factory and we don't get any details.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where this factory was located?

Mrs. RAY. Located what?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the factory that Oswald worked in?

Mrs. RAY. In Minsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do
you know about that?

Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they
coming and stay in Moscow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for
a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and
then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by?

Mrs. RAY. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told
us that she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl,
she says she come back from Moscow.

Mr. LIEBELER. From Moscow?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know--let
me see how she say--that she come from Moscow. She fly--not fly--I do
not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but
she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she
been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. For a year?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not tell you what they were doing there for
a job?

Mrs. RAY. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and
that's as far as I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you
could tell?

Mrs. RAY. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she
don't understand English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment
they had to live in when they lived in Minsk?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where they lived when they were in
Moscow?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that they may have told
you about the time that they were in Russia together?

Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things.
I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing.
All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so
easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my
impression been that everything is get better, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how much money Oswald was paid at his
job?

Mrs. RAY. Where, there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. No, uh-uh.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why Oswald went to Russia in the first
place?

Mrs. RAY. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he
went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to
Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he
want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then Mrs. Harris is one
that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to
stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's
party, is that right?

Mrs. RAY. Yes--no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it
and Zena--that's Mrs. Harris--don't know either who they are but when
we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in
conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come
back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs.
Harris told you that, is that right?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion
about Oswald amongst the people there?

Mrs. RAY. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go
to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early--I don't
recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they
don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go
and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well,
we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at
this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they
gone and everything is forgot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that
there was a discussion about the Oswalds?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah, next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that?

Mrs. RAY. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We
went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we
staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but
she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2
weeks, Marina and her baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"--said she just
want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and
then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna
Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other
words a week after?

Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday,
that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask
by George Bouhe--or how you say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe.

Mrs. RAY. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what
being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and
that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his
wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both
there, is that right?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir; he.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yourself and your husband?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Harris.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Harris?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot
recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm;
I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been
from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Miss Biggers--Tatiana Biggers?

Mrs. RAY. Tatiana Biggers, yeah, she from Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else there that you remember?

Mrs. RAY. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't
remember what her name----

Mr. LIEBELER. Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
was said at this party or get-together?

Mrs. RAY. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him,
well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come
America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him
back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't
know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what
they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia
and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what
for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said
"Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he
cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every
place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time
work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give
job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and
said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to
making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her
here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty.
They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been
trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have
nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her
and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her,
not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell
me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living.

Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they
give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days
and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia
when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him
and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in
Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need
him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind
of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't
know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot--he don't
going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have
some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him."

Mr. LIEBELER. This is what Bouhe said?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she
is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him,
we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else was said at this time?

Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't know; I cannot recall right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or
not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government?

Mrs. RAY. Well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. Said Russia,
you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some
kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent
but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia
because so easy way to coming to America.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said
about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians?
What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can
recall the substance of that conversation.

Mrs. RAY. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what
try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but
said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we
don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told
him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said,
"You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you
know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia
and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They
going to do such a trick that you surprise.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to college in Russia?

Mrs. RAY. In Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this was while you were living in Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad
and then I went home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back to Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you study in Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. Economist Statistics.

Mr. DAVIS. Economics Statistics?

Mr. LIEBELER. Economics Statistics.

Mrs. RAY. Economics Statistics.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you study?

Mrs. RAY. Three and a half year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you study in Leningrad, what college?

Mrs. RAY. Soljanoy Calach--that's salt. I suppose to after I finish
they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia,
Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish
in Irkutsk, Siberia.

Mr. DAVIS. This was a Leningrad college?

Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's Stalingrad.

Mr. DAVIS. I mean college.

Mrs. RAY. Yes; Leningrad--street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim
Gorky Street; that's college.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you there in Leningrad studying, what year,
what years?

Mrs. RAY. You mean when?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not
permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go
this far--that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and
I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home
in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying
school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You
have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home.

Mr. LIEBELER. To Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying
there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war
started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to
write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started
that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in
Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the Germans arrived in Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; when Germans come there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad
from about 1937, is that right, to 1941?

Mrs. RAY. In 1941 when I coming home and just about 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you
started at the university in Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3-1/2 year
and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you
know, practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice
program in connection with your college?

Mrs. RAY. No; at this time that's my job. That's where I have to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go from Leningrad to Siberia to start
work?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come
back and then they assign me to Siberia.

Mr. LIEBELER. And, you actually went to Siberia before you came to
Stalingrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to
Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. This time I did not stay long. I had this plant they have on
ground.

Mr. LIEBELER. Salt processing?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like
to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to
admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I
coming home.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you
went there the first time?

Mrs. RAY. No; but I been to Siberia before on practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having
with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here
by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him
or asked him to do it.

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was?

Mrs. RAY. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first I talk
with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said
why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him
back, never can tell what is going happen. George--one said he don't
have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is
silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--I
don't know how to explain.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mental case?

Mrs. RAY. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any
count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have
enough sense. Said--they said they going to be through with him. They
don't want have anything to do with him any more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this conversation carried on in Russian or in English?

Mrs. RAY. In Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your husband there at the time?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me
sometimes. He remember this discussion, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did
Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. RAY. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on
English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we
tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald
might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married
to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason
that led you to suspect he might be an agent?

Mrs. RAY. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot--I don't know
how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can
quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They
send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go
home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there
and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he
seems--from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but
not as far as this; other, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought that in addition to his apparent--in
addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he
was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was
able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought
he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to
believe that?

Mrs. RAY. Well, main things--I don't thought those things be made
him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people
quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't
thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man
coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can
tell what they----

Mr. LIEBELER. Would do?

Mrs. RAY. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they
don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to
other country and working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people
who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside
Russia and be agents for Russia?

Mrs. RAY. No; I never received but I do know that we have it in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know; do you have schools like that?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in
military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We
study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the
people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need,
you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a
war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians do not want a war?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them
have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves,
but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures
where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other
countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to
always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as
much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it.
I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's
first time I meet these people.

Mr. DAVIS. Where would that school be; do you know?

Mrs. RAY. Which kind?

Mr. DAVIS. School where they would teach people this.

Mrs. RAY. That is really secret. They don't let you know. In Russia?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. I don't know if they do train agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were told this when you were going to school in
Leningrad, is that correct?

Mrs. RAY. Yeah.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion
as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a
Russian agent?

Mrs. RAY. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided
he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we
don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been
wondering, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree
that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did
not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian
agent?

Mrs. RAY. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they
do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be
not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such
difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any
such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not
Russian agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the other details of these
conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can
recall?

Mrs. RAY. No; that all I recall right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his
wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that
correct?

Mrs. RAY. No, sir; I never see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the
Commission should know that you have not already told us?

Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know nothing else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you would like to add to your
testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly
well?

Mrs. RAY. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I
saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away
and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do
you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man;
made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there
here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when
my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well,
you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he
said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility
after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the
assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might
have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again?

Mrs. RAY. No; we not. See, my husband called George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and
said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said,
"Well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "We
just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any
enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure
out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they
don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we
been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just
want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one
Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and
he thinking I am telling--am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina,
and this man is----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Attorney General.

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank
you very much for coming in.



TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY

The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand?

(Complying.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. RAY. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to
take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that
Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would
contact you to take your testimony.

Mr. RAY. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's
procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the
letter?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness
to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify
although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive
the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post
office.

Mr. RAY. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your
testimony at this time?

Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again.

Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates
basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your
full name for the record?

Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name?

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't.

Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir?

Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Texas?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?

Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a
hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for
Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right
now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am
going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as
assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2
years.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray?

Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct?

Mr. RAY. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right?

Mr. RAY. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
you met and married your wife?

Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already
know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army
used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen
work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she
and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was
go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and
feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her
back to the United States; is that correct?

Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later
discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in
Frankfurt.

(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney
general of Texas leaves the room.)

Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think
actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which
would have been 16, 17 months, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct?

Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank
when you met your wife?

Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your
wife when you were in Germany?

Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps
but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send
all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to
Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and
never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government
stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go
back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about
our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get
all the Russian nationals back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian
authorities before she could marry you?

Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't
say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see
the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here?

Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was
during that time that they were trying to send them all back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?

Mr. RAY. I met them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your
meeting them, where was it, what happened?

Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how
you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your
contact was.

Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his
wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or
something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten
acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and,
actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over
here. We came and we met them over here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the party?

Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met?

Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to
go to the Ford party?

Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we
went to this party.

Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of
Declan P. Ford?

Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were
made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford
from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be
and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we
were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes
on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was
said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along
with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and
went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday
night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on
Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until
Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at
the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald
was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because
when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get
acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't
get acquainted with Oswald or his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald
at all?

Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a
handshake or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can
remember at the moment, is that correct?

Mr. RAY. No, I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was
kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have
any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English?

Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English,
is that correct?

Mr. RAY. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the
ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you?

Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I
wasn't around him very much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford
party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in
your presence?

Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember?

Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or
Miller.

Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right?

Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband
was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]?

Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time?

Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and
Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston
was there. I believe she was from Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?

Mr. RAY. No; I don't now.

Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you?

Mr. RAY. What was the first name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana.

Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe
she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe?

Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got
acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there?

Mr. RAY. Well, I might.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really.

Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to
the best of your recollection.

Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a
nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think
the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of
this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to
help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly,
George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion?

Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too
good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He
wasn't real good to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have
beaten Marina up?

Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had
gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was
the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he
was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?

Mr. RAY. Yeah.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald?

Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald
along these lines as far as you can remember?

Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea
and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed
me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did
have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said
at this point?

Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no.
I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee
and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and
that's the way it went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether
or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me
like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for
all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States
and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time
that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you
know what I mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean?

Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my
mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked
odd to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife
out partly related to the difficulties you had had?

Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known
the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and
you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered
at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much
trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did
look odd to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember
amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this
question?

Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say
whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago
and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you
know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I
wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in
Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people
that were at the house?

Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some
Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to
death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian
and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all.
I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking
to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of
leaves Ed and I out when we are together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion
on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't
want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you
remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have
good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a
job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these
reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was
not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?

Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and
I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the
Russians would not want him or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint
recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you
believe?

Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility,
see.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying
is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it
is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm
recollection?

Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the
Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit
prior to the assassination?

Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had
completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure
we talked about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation
might have been?

Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the
country.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned?

Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that
they might have sent him back for something.

Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you
recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's
involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the
assassination?

Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got
home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald
and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the
guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know,
the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know,
brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes
misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be
mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President.
I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the
President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and
so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these
people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the
guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short
conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said
it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time
I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year
had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a
year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he
remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told
me "Yeah, that's the guy."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or
not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have
been the man who really did assassinate the President?

Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how
Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place
at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all
those places in that short length of time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at
this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?

Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure
how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and
then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how
many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this----

Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre.

Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from
place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little
doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement
based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and
you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did
not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he
was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion
with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?

Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George
was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He
said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying
to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy
when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I
remember that statement.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he
tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his
previous association with Oswald?

Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying
to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?

Mr. RAY. I think so; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told
us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?

Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the
paper", said "It's all in there."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else?

Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I
don't remember anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about
that?

Mr. RAY. About this deal?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time?

Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody
else that was at this party about this assassination?

Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now,
that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie
a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but
anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we
did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to
get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and
on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and
that's--of course, we discussed it then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together
at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was
discussed?

Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the
whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into
the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how
it came about, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was
there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a
Russian agent?

Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was
said about it?

Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or
agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a
Russian agent?

Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a
Russian agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did
you get that opinion?

Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I
would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever
telling you that they thought he was?

(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.)

Mr. RAY. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be?

Mr. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or
not he was a Russian agent or might be?

Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation
that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or
something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course,
you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would
want, you know, for a Russian agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is just----

Mr. RAY. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the
people that knew him thought; I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is just your own thought on it?

Mr. RAY. That is my own thoughts on it, see.

Mr. DAVIS. Have you all--I might inject here--have you all gone over
the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of
these other people that it was strange about them being able to come
out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move
about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that
it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed?

Mr. RAY. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and
my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country
and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or
longer--how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him----

Mr. DAVIS. Going on 3 years.

Mr. RAY. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of
ridiculous to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the
Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife,
wasn't it?

Mr. RAY. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where
the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there
been very frequent--I mean, have you and your wife gone--I believe this
was the first time?

Mr. RAY. This was the first time we ever.

Mr. DAVIS. Did they mention about this having happened fairly
frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in
Dallas?

Mr. RAY. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know,
somewhere around New Year's--Christmas or New Year's; something like an
annual affair for them to get together.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you know--were there any others in this group or did
you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story
like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go
out of Russia?

Mr. RAY. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were
Russian descent or else they were like--they had married a Russian over
there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody
there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of
them.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard of no other examples where people had come
out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct?

Mr. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You know or did you hear of it?

Mr. RAY. I did not hear.

Mr. DAVIS. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since
the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and
go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to
contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this
proved to be?

Mr. RAY. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on
the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and
the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally
gave up.

Mr. DAVIS. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence
it has been made easier to communicate back and forth?

Mr. RAY. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a
couple years before we even knew it.

Mr. DAVIS. How long has this been you received that information?

Mr. RAY. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by
when my wife found out about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she
died, do you know?

Mr. RAY. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure
that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near
Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you
know, took place, in Arzamas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know
or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion
that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this
point, go right ahead.

Mr. RAY. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down
here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much.

Mr. RAY. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with
what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the
guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses
of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI,
because of that. They might contact these people and find out more
about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think they have talked to most of them.

Mr. RAY. I am sure they have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN

The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give?

Mr. BALLEN. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin
mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact
you this week to take your testimony.

The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to
authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of
the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did
receive those, did you not?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts
with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your
association with George De Mohrenschildt.

Will you state your full name?

Mr. BALLEN. Samuel B. Ballen.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. BALLEN. 8715 Midway Road.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?

Mr. BALLEN. Dallas 9.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?

Mr. BALLEN. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior
officer in several corporations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Included among those corporations is the High Plains
Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are an American citizen, sir?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in the United States?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?

Mr. BALLEN. In New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. BALLEN. November 1950.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your age, sir?

Mr. BALLEN. Forty-two.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background?

Mr. BALLEN. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend
Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y.,
and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University,
Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University,
and Texas A&M.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were the graduate courses in, generally?

Mr. BALLEN. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum
engineering.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?

Mr. BALLEN. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy.

My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De
Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife
had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from
Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems,
that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a
job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for
him.

I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately
2 hours with him.

He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to
go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with
him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to
the YMCA where he was residing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision?

Mr. BALLEN. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or
the very early part of 1963.

I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down
the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and
that was also true of Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you;
do you know?

Mr. BALLEN. He indicated to me that he was not employed.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that
correct?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. He told me that his--I knew he had a
wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some
friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where his wife was staying?

Mr. BALLEN. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De
Mohrenschildts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BALLEN. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just
coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very
vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the
Oak Cliff region.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous
employment?

Mr. BALLEN. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him
and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop
some employment for him.

He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in
the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction,
but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his
lack of any usable training.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told
you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia?

Mr. BALLEN. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may
have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper
in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use
commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a
result of his interview with you?

Mr. BALLEN. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started
out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having
a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out
feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had
been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore
on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a
rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded
individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him
down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting,
trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical
Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction
equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area
of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the
conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too
much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the
team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I
think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what
I could do.

Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this
to try to help him find a job?

Mr. BALLEN. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached
my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general
manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be
generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any
memory of my calling him in that regard.

Mr. LIEBELER. The other individual being the man in charge of
operations at Log Services?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this
conclusion that you have just expressed?

Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to
your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that
you and Oswald had that day?

Mr. BALLEN. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from
De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and
come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine
Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector.

I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this
Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for
himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors
had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He
gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion
of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was
hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there.

I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make
this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a
negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still
had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be
fairly realistic.

Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of
detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own
institutions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along
that line?

Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but
there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general
observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me
that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R.,
and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached
student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be
snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press
or official spokesmen.

He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses
type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me
the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible
industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he
could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept
saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he
said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you
worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it
became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think
will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular
hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government?

Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective
reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him,
I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the
course of your discussion?

Mr. BALLEN. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited
as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would
have--this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I
would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards
President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You drew that inference simply as a general impression
based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically
that led you to that conclusion?

Mr. BALLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor
Connally mentioned?

Mr. BALLEN. No; it was not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular
institution of the United States?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our
religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he
referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the
United States. I cannot document that with any specific items which
were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this
had come out during that discussion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem?

Mr. BALLEN. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the
meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had
a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that
this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of
compassion for mankind generally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies
which had as their end racial prejudice?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt
that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of
any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable
you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced
by racist or hate propaganda?

Mr. BALLEN. You will have to make your question more specific.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who
would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated
with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind
of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the
position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union
and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of
plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute
their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the
situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward
hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them?

Mr. BALLEN. I think I understand your question, and there would have
been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular
organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain
difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to
the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not
ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in
this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as
heck to gain employment.

I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of
training you have, if you get employment."

And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training
other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work
he did in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am
sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I
have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have
worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about
camera and reproduction equipment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?

Mr. BALLEN. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as
to what his income was?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income
while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this--his job?

Mr. BALLEN. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a
little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?

Mr. BALLEN. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of
sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the
United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out;
and I got out."

I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious
effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she
was reporting to us that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts
were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty
miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at
each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to
bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people
and mingle and otherwise.

George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our
house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing
that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something
in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife
didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation
to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of
them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had
of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He
was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And
my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise
would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently
moved into Dallas from afar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember with any great specificity the things
that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such
an independent fellow?

Mr. BALLEN. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have,
a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the
shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within
the Soviet Union in any way?

Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that he had done considerable
traveling there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you
get that information or impression?

Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet
Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just
incredibly boring and dismal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring
or dismal in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came
down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to
impose on him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you question him--did you have questions in your own
mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling?

Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who
could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very
little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he
did, engender a certain amount of sympathy.

In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and
if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like
that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get
around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of
money to do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him
money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing
that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the
wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit;
"Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get
myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to
a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had
received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was
in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received
in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about
photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated
that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and
understanding of that type of machinery?

Mr. BALLEN. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment
myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different
types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous
cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Marina?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital
when he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the
Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his
return to the United States?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this
thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and
now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into
all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because
he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to
renounce his citizenship?

Mr. BALLEN. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would
have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a
job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was
employed and lived in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so
much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and
what I have read in the newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was
employed in the city of Minsk?

Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. I would have thought that he would
have--my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of
Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while
in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't ask him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his
wife when he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as his return to the United States is concerned,
you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to
leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the
bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any
resentment?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made
life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human
being.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and
Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating
to possible resentment of the United States?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the
Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as
Russia?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians
who had delayed his return, is that correct?

Mr. BALLEN. Well, it was a matter of working then through these
bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the
American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the
same?

Mr. BALLEN. I would say about equal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning
politics?

Mr. BALLEN. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to,
parenthetically.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational
background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and
that sort of thing?

Mr. BALLEN. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate
conclusion I came to was that he left--that he lacked educational
training.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper
in New Orleans?

Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction
facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans,
and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in
New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you
about his activities in New Orleans?

Mr. BALLEN. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans,
and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban
committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this
was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with
any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or
any part of the political spectrum.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist?

Mr. BALLEN. He may have--I think I had the feeling that he, to the
extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and
was a critic of societies along Marxist lines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about
religion?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I
think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview
with him, made statements to reenforce that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about
Oswald before you actually met Oswald?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir.
Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had
been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either
for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred,
and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of
Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking
young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length
in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back
who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow
with no hatred.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no
hatred of anything?

Mr. BALLEN. That is what--De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that
his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with
hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions
connected with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind
when you met and talked to Oswald?

Mr. BALLEN. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent;
yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that
he would have had a little disdain for both sides.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get the impression, however, that he was
emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two
sides? Would that be a fair statement?

Mr. BALLEN. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not
be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda
that might be disseminated in the country?

Mr. BALLEN. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and
would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United
States, including our Government.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced
by propaganda of this sort?

Mr. BALLEN. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't
appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference,
to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress
me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way,
and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to
involve him in my firm, which means a team operation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person
or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence?

Mr. BALLEN. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the
unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the
degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It
was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable?

Mr. BALLEN. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen?

Mr. BALLEN. Too much a hard head?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that?

Mr. BALLEN. I--just his general conduct, his general responses, general
bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just
seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively,
a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally
ill, I didn't come away with that feeling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at
self-improvement or self-education that you could give us?

Mr. BALLEN. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership,
literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little
curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of
reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as
someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian
literature?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to
comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he
understood them to be Marxian leanings?

Mr. BALLEN. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly
his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity
to go into that with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about
December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald?

Mr. BALLEN. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. LIEBELER. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and
Mitchell.

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were
familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings?

Mr. BALLEN. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I
have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your answer was?

Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were
unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of
the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia?

Mr. BALLEN. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective
on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the
newspapers--all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the
best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my
memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not conscious of any difference in those two
answers?

Mr. BALLEN. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the
same as my answer here today.

Mr. LIEBELER. Assuming that was your answer that day?

Mr. BALLEN. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my
best memory and best recollection at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relationship between
Oswald and De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BALLEN. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events
after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George
meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this
fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for
individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his
wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that
this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were
leaving for Haiti.

George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a
week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes
more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house
at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the
Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at
the wall and fighting each other."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was
an attempt made on the life of General Walker?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BALLEN. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss
either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that
occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some
pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed
it with him in any great----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in
connection with the attempt on Walker's life?

Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he did?

Mr. BALLEN. I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald
owned a rifle?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact
that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind
in that conversation?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first
time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that?

Mr. BALLEN. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday
morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of
about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people,
that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but
some other stray dog.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who this other stray dog was?

Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his
way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria.

Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently disappeared from the scene?

Mr. BALLEN. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De
Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. BALLEN. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize
that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3
hours later that this was the chap I met.

I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake,
that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and
she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the
gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if
you lined up 50 individuals, the one person who would stand out as
being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very
surprised when Oswald was arrested.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further conversations along that line
with your wife?

Mr. BALLEN. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would
naturally discuss it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to
your wife when you first learned of the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren
Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as
reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there
remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to
seeing the published report.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it
not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had
any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to
commit an act of this sort, is that correct?

Mr. BALLEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any contact between Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BALLEN. Approximately 1955, maybe 1954.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since
this assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. Only through the mails.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have corresponded with him since the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write about the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that
mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his
environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very
guarded way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me in general what you wrote to him?

Mr. BALLEN. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said
in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was--I wanted to know
that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he
understood what I was asking him.

And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and
Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened,
because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed
mind out into the open air.

And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me
for what she thought were kind sentiments.

Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and
let him know I wondered how he was getting along.

And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race
riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let
us hear from you."

Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were
guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George
and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him?

Mr. BALLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have the letters he wrote to you?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his
wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of
letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them
until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are
the only letters that I have ever saved.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned De Mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law?

Mr. BALLEN. Well, his wife's daughter.

Mr. LIEBELER. His wife's daughter?

Mr. BALLEN. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are their names?

Mr. BALLEN. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De
Mohrenschildts call them Buggers.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a
period of time?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long, approximately?

Mr. BALLEN. About 2 weeks.

Mr. LIEBELER. They originally resided in Anchorage, Alaska, is that
correct?

Mr. BALLEN. Well, that is where they formerly resided; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have they permanently moved from Anchorage?

Mr. BALLEN. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from
him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and
Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald?

Mr. BALLEN. They say they had not, and in thinking through the
chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some
confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual
who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try
to help.

They drove him to east Texas once and to a timber farm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the other person whom you described a little
while back as another stray dog?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have
any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said
about the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly
stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and
that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently
had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to
be banding about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and
Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying
publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the
assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy?

Mr. BALLEN. They told me that they stated that at a reception for
members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when that reception was?

Mr. BALLEN. It would have been while Chris and Rags were in Haiti.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt
make this remark?

Mr. BALLEN. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your
question directly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the
dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince?

Mr. BALLEN. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through
my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my
house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come
through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and
they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did they show up at your house again for the second
time?

Mr. BALLEN. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been
at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at
about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house
March 1, and left March 15, more or less.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the
conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks
allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house.

Mr. BALLEN. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that
they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all
of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that
sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission.

The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed
him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and
probably had a tail on him.

He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty
serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he
then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see
him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and
so they came out to my house and interviewed him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks
that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made?

Mr. BALLEN. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was
there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room
where they were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the agent who came out?

Mr. BALLEN. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from
California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. One of the two agents that interviewed you when?

Mr. BALLEN. About March 6th or 7th.

Mr. LIEBELER. The interview that you have just referred to concerns
your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that
the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and
Raymond P. Yelchek?

Mr. BALLEN. The gentleman who came out to my house was Mr. Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was Mr. Wood that interviewed Rags, is that correct?

Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags discuss with you the interview after the agent
had left?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with
De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark
that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President?

Mr. BALLEN. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested
vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already
known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated
into quite a personality clash.

I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very
critical on personal grounds of Rags.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why was De Mohrenschildt critical of Rags, do you
remember?

Mr. BALLEN. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question
now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal
matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a
son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that
his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons
seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and
maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about.

But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a
personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything--any bearing
here. If you want me to discuss it, I will.

Mr. LIEBELER. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a
purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me.

Mr. BALLEN. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his
overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall
nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this
was one of the sources of some conflict.

Mr. LIEBELER. They had political differences, in other words, also?

Mr. BALLEN. In their overall perspective; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told us everything that you can remember
about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De
Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell
us everything about that that you can remember, either about your
conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation
with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De
Mohrenschildt's statements.

Mr. BALLEN. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there
was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by,
well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the
French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a
foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also
at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free
republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result
of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else
who was at this party, that you can remember?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with
me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there.

I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's
statement and was known to the American Embassy down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Rags said about that?

Mr. BALLEN. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that
George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American
Embassy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had
been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince?

Mr. BALLEN. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that
he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr.
Wood--was that his name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood was the gentleman who interviewed Rags.

Mr. BALLEN. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood
indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his
interview of you, is that correct?

Mr. BALLEN. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and
Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and
Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they
were looking fine.

But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told
him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And
he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the
gray flannel suit boys.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you any details of his conversation with
the FBI?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your
knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any
reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been
involved in the assassination in any way?

Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this matter with anybody?

Mr. BALLEN. Would you make your question a little more specific?

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De
Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized
that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I
then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better
have a good answer to that one.

And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian
colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met
him through George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Mr. Bouhe about that?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I haven't seen George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and
Oswald had met through Bouhe?

Mr. BALLEN. It would have either been Declan Ford or Natasha Voshinin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility
that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the
assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anybody else discuss that question?

Mr. BALLEN. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is,
the first time I have heard that question raised is today.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified,
when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that
De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De
Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is
that correct?

Mr. BALLEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the
contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did
you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with
Oswald prior to the assassination?

Mr. BALLEN. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the
feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their
leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt
corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti?

Mr. BALLEN. I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other matter about which you might
have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think
should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with
this matter?

Mr. BALLEN. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely
discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed
up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and
finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and
consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best,
but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I
would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as
anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was.

George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were
both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were
befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good
personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth
in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning
the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy.

Mr. BALLEN. Do I have any reason to believe that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would
only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my
mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative
possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000
other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some
unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either
of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that
the FBI was involved?

Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De
Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have
uttered?

Mr. BALLEN. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state,
that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there
any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief?

Mr. BALLEN. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That
there are no reasons, and this is a madness.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he
believed this?

Mr. BALLEN. None were expressed to me; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you want to add?

Mr. BALLEN. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Ballen.



TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK

The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. JENNER. I am Albert Jenner.

Mrs. Dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please?

I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear
that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Be seated please.

Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff
counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the
President of the United States to investigate the assassination of
President Kennedy.

Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the
President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United
States No. 137.

Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for
the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your
deposition taken?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive
order and the resolution to which I have made reference?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine
American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution,
the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain
respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons
involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information
that you have some possible information that might help us with respect
to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you
about that.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am ready.

Mr. JENNER. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and
relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to
happen to you.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I'm not afraid.

Mr. JENNER. Your name is Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly pronounce your name?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's all right.

Mr. JENNER. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is
[spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You live at 3542-1/2 10th Street in Fort Worth?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of
Dallas--because I understand that would offend you.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir [laughter].

Mr. JENNER. But it is a large Texas city about, what--25 or 30 miles
from here?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I like it very much.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the
Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that's a beautiful store.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It is--it is beautiful store and nice place to work--and
I like it.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Fort Worth?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. How long I'm in Fort Worth?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let me see--I think it was from August.

Mr. JENNER. Of what year?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Last year.

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962--yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And where have you resided prior to August 1962?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Why?

Mr. JENNER. Where? You came to Fort Worth in August 1962, did you say?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah; yeah.

Mr. JENNER. From where?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. From Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had been a resident of Dallas up to that time?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long had you been a resident of Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, about 4 years--and 3, 4 months.

Mr. JENNER. And from where had you come when you came to Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. From Belgium--Brussels.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Belgium?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; I am a citizen of Belgium.

Mr. JENNER. You are a citizen----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Born in Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered
personal questions but I'm not merely curious--I'm seeking information.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thirty-seven.

Mr. JENNER. Thirty-seven.

Are you married?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been married?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In this country or in Belgium or in Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was married in Belgium.

Mr. JENNER. Married in Belgium?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband come with you to this country?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. He came first to United States, and I came afterward.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you
were born, to Belgium.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the
war and brought to Germany--Dusseldorf.

Mr. JENNER. Was this your parents and you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; just sister--an older sister and I and that's all.
We are separated from the family.

Mr. JENNER. And the German Army took you to Dusseldorf?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies,
essentially?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. The Americans.

Mr. JENNER. The Americans?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

And you and your sister went to Belgium, did you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; 1945. After the war.

Mr. JENNER. Now, my arithmetic is very bad. How old were you then?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. In 1945?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, 17.

Mr. JENNER. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were
captured by the Germans?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you live in Russia when you were captured by the
Germans?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Rostov.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-s-t-o-v?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or is that "o-w"?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; it's "v".

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any brothers?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just yourself and your sister were the only children?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And a little sister--she was born after the war, in
1947. So, I haven't seen her.

Mr. JENNER. Your parents are still in Russia as far as you know?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. They are; yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Were either of your parents active politically in Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Active politically?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist
Party, for example?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Were you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is your husband still in this country?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You don't?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago--3-1/2 years
ago. I don't know where he is.

Mr. JENNER. I take it for part of this time at least--was he an
American?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he was from White Russia.

Mr. JENNER. White Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were married in Belgium, were you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he preceded you to this country?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he settle here in the Dallas area?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he settled for awhile. And--uh--he never settled
down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a
better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here.

Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. His occupation?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. He was a draftsman.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is he now an American citizen?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard yes.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And you certainly are?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not yet.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you're not yet?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. What status are you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. What is your status? Have you applied?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I
would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't
write. So that's why I have to go to school first.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, to write English?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. To have examinations you have to learn writing
English.

Mr. JENNER. I see. But you are doing that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; I study at home.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; great document!

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of your marriage?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No children.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a lady by the name of Anna Meller?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes pronounced "Miller"?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me your acquaintance with Anna Meller. How did it come
about?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. When I came to United States----

Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute. What year was that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think it was 1960.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to the United States and you came to
Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You joined your husband here?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with Anna Meller?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not through him.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Through George Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of--what is
today? Yes, Monday.

George Bouhe--he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great
interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a
little church, did he not?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, he helps everybody I know.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's a short, bald-headed man?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps
everybody--Germans, Belgians, everybody.

Mr. JENNER. He's a generous man?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. He just like to help. That's all----

Mr. JENNER. He's bouncy and vigorous. All right. I interrupted you. Go
ahead.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's okay.

Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with Anna Meller?

Mrs DYMITRUK. Yes; I met her at George's house----

Mr. JENNER. You met her where?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. At George Bouhe's house.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I
go visit her at home.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What church is that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It's the Russian church.

Mr. JENNER. Russian Orthodox Church?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Russian Orthodox Church. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of it? Saint somebody or other?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One
is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times
I went to George Bouhe--but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's
his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just
likes everybody to go there--but I prefer to go to this one--Father
Dimitri's church.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party
somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband.

Mr. JENNER. In their home?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In 1962, you were living in Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. 1962; yeah.

Mr. JENNER. You had an apartment of your own at that time?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where was that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was on McKinney Avenue.

Mr. JENNER. McKinney?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. McKinney Avenue. Yes. Palm Gardens Apartments.

Mr. JENNER. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange
between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your
befriending or harboring another lady--taking somebody into your
home--your apartment?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. No?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation at any time between you and
Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home
temporarily?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just
one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation--I
remember it--that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody
in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her
husband.

Mr. JENNER. Separated?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to
help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of her at that time?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I heard about her, yes; but I haven't met her.

Mr. JENNER. From whom?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe.
Both of them.

Mr. JENNER. Told you about----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and
she are looking for--uh--to help--for somebody can help her to find a
living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with
somebody, but I don't know with whom.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about
this lady?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes; she told me--yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did she--what did they tell you about her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I visit her on Sunday once and--uh--she told me that
Marina was in her apartment for a week.

Mr. JENNER. Had lived with Mrs. Meller a week?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her
husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her
baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. The husband would not take them to the hospital?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. The baby to the hospital or to see a doctor.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she asked me----

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Meller asked you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see
her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've
got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to
go. So--and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't
know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better
go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me
the address and she says, "If you can go--if you go to her and see
her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary--English
dictionary--hers and George Bouhe's--dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay."

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the
Oswalds, would you please bring with you----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. English-language and Russian-language dictionaries----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were English.

Mr. JENNER. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would
then bring them----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. To her.

Mr. JENNER. To Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Those books were at Marina's house.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and
other one, Anna Meller gave it to her.

Mr. JENNER. And they were both English-language dictionaries?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; English-Russian.

Mr. JENNER. English-Russian?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

So, she asked me to bring it back--those books.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, it was on Tuesday early in the morning----

Mr. JENNER. Tuesday?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. I thought you said Thursday?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; Tuesday is my day off.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house--I found her
house--and----

Mr. JENNER. Was she at home?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first,
to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute--maybe 5 or 10
minutes--and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was
so many apartments--some empty--and, you know, I just couldn't find
her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I
knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald
and she said, "Yes."

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you ever met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The
first I remember.

Mr. JENNER. Okay.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. She said, "well, yes?"

And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me
that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you
to bring that baby to the hospital."

"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with
him. I don't know what to do."

And I said, "Where is he?"

"Well, he's working."

I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I
said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?"

She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I
don't know."

I said, "Well, okay. Let's go to the hospital."

Mr. JENNER. Were you speaking in Russian?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian
language--you speak Russian well?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak
Russian well?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So--and she said that the baby had 103----

Mr. JENNER. Fever?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Fever. And I said--it was some kind of cold
weather--"You had better put some warm clothes--and in the car it's
warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby."

She said, "Well, all right."

So, it was about 10 o'clock or 10:30----

Mr. JENNER. In the morning?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. In the morning.

I went to the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we'll just hesitate a minute.

Did you enter the apartment?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around
the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or
did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You
know.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Uh--I think she was all right. And house was clean. And
it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment
when I came to United States--so----

Mr. JENNER. So, she was neat, the apartment was neat and clean----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she was neat and clean?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, I take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression
of her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what sex was this baby--girl or boy?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was a girl.

Mr. JENNER. A little girl. About how old?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. (Gesturing with hands.) Baby couldn't walk. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting
at. She was carrying the baby in her arms?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about
her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they
getting along well--or what was your impression in that respect?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I haven't seen him at all--so, I couldn't say
anything----

Mr. JENNER. I know, but from what she said, Mrs. Dymitruk?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, that's what she said about her husband--that he's
against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to
pay the bills.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't
have to pay anything or maybe something--I don't know.

So, I took her to the hospital with her baby.

Mr. JENNER. You went to the Parkland Hospital here in Dallas?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you drove Marina and her child?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Okay.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked
the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature
to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have
a children's doctor here."

Mr. JENNER. Do not have a children's doctor?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver
babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's
doctor.

Mr. JENNER. Yeah.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't
know what to do with the baby now."

"Well, if you can come in the evening."

Mr. JENNER. The doctor or the attendant said----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That was the nurse.

And she said, "Well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the
children."

I said, "Is it possible to find somebody else right now?"

Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know--I don't have my own
children but really I was scared to see baby.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to
another children's hospital in Dallas."

And that's what I did.

Mr. JENNER. You and Marina and the baby then drove to----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where that was?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little
hospital--children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to
pay anything.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Just for children.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children
there waiting.

Mr. JENNER. 40?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think so. There were so many children.

And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is
possible right away.

Mr. JENNER. Because the baby has a fever?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and she said, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help it."

Mr. JENNER. Cannot?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. "I cannot--because they have so many children here and
you have to wait your turn."

I said, "Maybe those children----"--I see around there--playing
around--so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't
you take baby right away?"

"Oh, no; you have to wait 3 or 4 hours"--or something like that.

I said, "Well, I'm sorry. We have to go home."

So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her,
"Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If
you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening."

She said, "Yes."

So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock--maybe 5 o'clock or
something--I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her
husband wasn't home.

Mr. JENNER. Was not?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you
to the hospital. Do you want to go?"

She said, "Yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back."

I said, "Okay."

So he came home and first he was eating----

Mr. JENNER. Were you introduced to him?

Mr. DYMITRUK. Yes. She said, "That's my husband." And he spoke Russian
to me.

Mr. JENNER. He did speak Russian?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; and I was really surprised--in short time, he spoke
nicely.

Mr. JENNER. He spoke pretty good Russian?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

So--and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby.
And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay."

So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and
they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a real argument?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was. Yes. I could hear from the kitchen that they
argued.

Mr. JENNER. It was a heated argument?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, they were just--uh--I don't know what it was all
about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to
the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't
want to go, she did?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to go but he----

Mr. JENNER. He did not want to go?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the
hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right."

So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were
children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He--the
doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray--a lung X-ray and, I don't
know, all kind of tests, right away.

So, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, I think it was two
copies or three copies of papers----

Mr. JENNER. From the hospital?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. From the doctor to go to the service desk.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, at the service desk--he was standing here
[indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the
baby. So--and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's
working, and he said "No."

Mr. JENNER. Not working?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment--do you get
some unemployment money?"

He said, "No."

And she said, "Well, how do you live then?"

He said, "Well, friends helping me."

And Marina--she was behind me--and she says, "What a liar!"

And they argue again.

Mr. JENNER. They argued--between the two of them?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, in Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just
told us?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's what she told. That's what she told.

Mr. JENNER. Did he hear her say that--is what I'm----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes--because then they were in argument.

Mr. JENNER. Then, they got in an argument?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the argument about?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, about the--that he is not working--because he was
lying.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say why he lied?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. He didn't say anything.

So, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I
think so--but he put it in his pocket.

Mr. JENNER. He put the paper in his pocket?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. In his pocket.

And so we came out and I brought them home--and I didn't come into the
house.

Mr. JENNER. They just got out of the car and went in?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. They didn't say anything--thank you or
what--anything.

Mr. JENNER. To you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. They just got out?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay
any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is
free. It's suppose to be free here, too."

I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted.

Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With him?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him [laughing]----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of
his argument was that these things were free in Russia----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they should be free in the United States?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he
shouldn't be paying?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; that's what he figures.

Mr. JENNER. When, if ever, did you next see either Marina or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime--I think was
in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked
in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store--located
in Wyatt's Store there.

Mr. JENNER. That's a supermarket?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. And I managed the bakery.

So, I saw her shopping----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I assume you speak French, too, do you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very little.

Mr. JENNER. Very little?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. Flemish and German.

Mr. JENNER. Flemish and German and Russian--and English?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And English.

Mr. JENNER. You do very well with English.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her
dressed maternity.

Mr. JENNER. So she had the same child she had the year before?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she was pregnant with another child?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was dressed like she was.

And I just saw her from far--and I said, "Marina?"

"Oh!" she says, "How are you?"

I said, "Okay."

Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize you?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh, yes. And she said, "Do you see anything on me?"

I said, "Well, I don't know."

She said, "Well, I expect another baby."

I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your
husband doing?"

"Oh, he's in New Orleans. And I'm going to New Orleans, too."

And there was another lady with her.

Mr. JENNER. There was another lady? Would you describe the other lady,
please?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, she was tall, black hair. She spoke Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What was her command of Russian?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Very--not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I
thought she was English first--her type of face.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American--and I went to the
university and studied Russian--and I practice now with Marina."

I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need
another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the
Russian language.

And I thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]--I don't know.

And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say
that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive
Marina to New Orleans?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right.

Mr. JENNER. What time of the year was this?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Years and dates, I'm just lost.

Mr. JENNER. Well, was it in the spring?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No, no, no. It was in summertime.

Mr. JENNER. It was in the summertime?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I
think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's the last time I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you saw Marina?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the last time you had even any indirect
contact--people speaking of her--that is, prior to November 22--did you
hear about her in between?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. Not at all?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. When you were assisting them with their child and went to
their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I think it was in Oak Cliff.

Mr. JENNER. In Oak Cliff?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think was in Oak Cliff.

Mr. JENNER. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald
and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there
any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of
his views with respect to Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just only about the hospitalization.

Mr. JENNER. Only the hospitalization?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with
Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether
he had been in Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You knew that before--well, I'll ask you this: How did you
know he had been to Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I knew from George Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. From George Bouhe?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; he told me about it--uh--one person who went to
Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby--back to
United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing--that he learned
something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back.
He was just lucky that he did come back to United States."

Mr. JENNER. He was fortunate that he could come back?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were
taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her
a good many hours?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Oh--let me see. It was maybe till 2 o'clock--2:30 maybe.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting
Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their
lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls
have some smalltalk?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. It was just about life in United States; not in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Not in Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

She told me that her husband want to go back to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. "And I don't want to go," she say.

Mr. JENNER. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your
recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including
himself and her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he
was going to stay here?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; he wanted to go with her.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't
go--because I like here and I don't go."

Mr. JENNER. I see. But she did make a point of telling you about that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this
day when you were with them for a good many hours?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; with her.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--with her.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says,
"United States, I do--but not everything"

I said, "What you mean--not everything?"

"Well, just the same problem--the hospitalization and the doctors."

I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a
company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then
if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's how I explain to her.

"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia--my baby was born in
Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there
was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby--and why is
it not in United States like this?"

I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries--Russia and
United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will
understand."

Mr. JENNER. And did you explain to her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I explained about this hospitalization what we have here.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have
to go doctor, you pay the visit."

I said, "You can go to the hospital--to the Parkland Hospital and it
cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything."

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to
doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why,
that's nothing."

"Well, I can't afford it."

I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital--to Parkland
Hospital--to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything."

That was the only--what she complained about.

Mr. JENNER. But otherwise she thought well of the United States?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. She liked it.

Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. She want to stay; yes.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, she did not want to go back to Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. No.

Mr. JENNER. But she told you that her husband did want to return to
Russia?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember specifically now?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; I remember. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to
go back with her?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want
to go, he can go by himself. I stay here."

Mr. JENNER. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time
you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United
States?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very
disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in
Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the
street.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. And that's why he was always so upset.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.

Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would
like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you
think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important
investigation?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who
goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them
back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave
United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have
experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood,
I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason
that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life--I mean
the Communists. I can't see that.

Mr. JENNER. You have a personal aversion to communism?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia
with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And not encourage him to return to the United States?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Not encourage--or if he ask to come back, just let him
stay there.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. All right.

Anything else?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Let's see--Uh--one thing that I'm just always wonder
about Marina and her husband--that she knew--if she knew that her
husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in
that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her
husband tried to do this.

Mr. JENNER. It's your viewpoint about----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. That she should have disclosed that?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir. Husband or no husband, I would feel that I
should.

Mr. JENNER. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a
husband, or whomever it might have been----

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have
been disclosed to the police or the Government?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, you ask questions. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. I can't think of anything at the moment.

Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter
hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the
course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in
questioning you that you think is pertinent here?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Everything that's pertinent I have questioned you about?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine
young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you
desire, or not--as you see fit. And some people like to read it over
and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's
optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do
this if you want. You also may waive it.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right.

Mr. JENNER. You would prefer to waive it?

Mrs. DYMITRUK. I think that's all right. What I say is truth.

Mr. JENNER. Well, all right.

Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's
certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful.

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR

The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present.


Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please?

In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently--I guess it was
last week--a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the
Presidential Assassination Commission----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your
deposition?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's true.

Mr. JENNER. And was there included with that letter a copy of the
Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November
29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and
directs that it prescribe its procedures----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No.
137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the
creation of the Commission?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was.

Mr. JENNER. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint
resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating
all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the
assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances
surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it.

We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and
from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds
and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and
that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might
be helpful.

I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will
notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions
here in Dallas and conduct the examination.

And you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your full name is Gary--[spelling] G-a-r-y E. Taylor?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What's your middle name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Edward.

Mr. JENNER. And you live in Fort Worth--is that correct, sir?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I live in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Dallas? And your address in Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a married man?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Family?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many children?

Mr. TAYLOR. One.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your age?

Mr. TAYLOR. Twenty-three.

Mr. JENNER. You are an American citizen?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Born here?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife is an American citizen?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Born here?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your children born here?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area of the country?

Mr. TAYLOR. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since
1951.

Mr. JENNER. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring
you to Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I moved here with my parents.

Mr. JENNER. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your
business or occupation or profession?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co.

Mr. JENNER. And what is the Sellers Co?

Mr. TAYLOR. A recording company whose primary function is the recording
of radio and television commercials.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been in that business?

Mr. TAYLOR. I went to work for them in September.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I
was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip
and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time
jobs and attended college at Arlington State.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a graduate of Arlington State?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student.

Mr. JENNER. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3
years at Arlington State?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Are you attending there at night--is that a night school?

Mr. TAYLOR. They hold night classes. I'm not attending.

Mr. JENNER. During the time you had your interest, which you still may
have, in--what did you say--photographing?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around
television commercials.

Mr. JENNER. Are you an amateur camera fan?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either
Marina or Lee Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which of the two did you meet first?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same
day in their home.

Mr. JENNER. On the same occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information about them prior to the time
you met them?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I had.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or
was it a purposeful meeting?

Mr. JENNER. It was prearranged.

Mr. JENNER. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a
moment, if we can defer that for a bit.

Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to
your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds
and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now
indicated?

Mr. TAYLOR. All right.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, how did it come about--from the beginning
of the world to the present?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--about a week before I met them, uh--my wife was told of
them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or
Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the
present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name--given name?

Mr. TAYLOR. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic].

Mr. JENNER. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes--uh--it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it--Zhon.
I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm
not familiar with it.

Mr. JENNER. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it.

Mr. JENNER. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife--what was her
maiden name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne----

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e?

Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And she was the daughter of whom?

Mr. TAYLOR. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as
Mrs. J. M. Brandel.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name.

Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l.

Mr. JENNER. And the present Mrs. Brandel--she was the wife of George De
Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. No. I appreciate that. Where does she live now?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B.

Mr. JENNER. Will you spell that?

Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a B.

Mr. JENNER. Just the letter B?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in
Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy.

Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she has remarried--and her name is Brandel.

Mr. JENNER. How many children were born of that marriage?

Mr. TAYLOR. One.

Mr. JENNER. Just your wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second
wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. TAYLOR. The first wife--to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs.
Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also
was married to at least one, if not two other women?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, I am aware of one other one.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind?

Mr. TAYLOR. I know very little about her, other than that her name is
Dee--her first name is Dee.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] D-e-e?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee?

Mr. TAYLOR. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of
which is deceased.

Mr. JENNER. And the one who still survives is male or female?

Mr. TAYLOR. Female.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know her name and whereabouts?

Mr. TAYLOR. Her given name is Nodjia--and I do not know the spelling of
it. It is, I believe, a Russian name.

Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it phonetically?

Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic).

Mr. JENNER. Is she married?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. She's a minor.

Mr. JENNER. She's still a minor?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe in Philadelphia--but I can't be sure of that.

Mr. JENNER. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her
mother in Philadelphia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince,
Haiti?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt
and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in
Port-au-Prince, Haiti?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

(Off the record discussion follows.)

Mr. JENNER. In order that the record be not too confused, I think
it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your
meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back
when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper
perspective.

Mr. TAYLOR. All right.

Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we,
Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the
De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De
Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. We will bring that out later.

(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by
referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting
how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.)

Your REPORTER. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was
told of them by either her father or stepmother--Mr. and Mrs. George De
Mohrenschildt."

Mr. JENNER. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there.

Mr. TAYLOR. They explained to us that----

Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean whom?

Mr. TAYLOR. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. Explained to my wife----

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth
with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts
were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert
and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De
Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go on.

Mr. TAYLOR. We----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an
American being back here with a Russian wife--or was this entirely new
to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of
either one of them prior to this.

Mr. JENNER. And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the
record, the wife you now speak of--that is, back in 1962--that is not
your present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. But that wife--what was her maiden name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one
Sunday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "them," you mean----

Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and
also----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over
there?

Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address
and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.

Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law
and mother-in-law present?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were.

Mr. JENNER. And where was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the
number?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house.

Mr. JENNER. It was a house--not an apartment?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a
duplex.

Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or
rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare
or new furniture--or what did it look like inside?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember,
uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however,
clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there.

Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two
persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was.

Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De
Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother
was there.

Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was
there--John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her
name--first name.

Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Elena.

Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the
time that you stepped into this room?

Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your
first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance
with Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what
anybody said?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that
afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what
preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a
question in your mind as distinct from something that was said----

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish
a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left
shortly after I arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit?

Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that
one afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this
particular occasion you are now relating?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media
activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes?

Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in
those few minutes?

Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman
who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there
that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in
anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion
from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and
Marguerite?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them;
that they had very little communication between them; that they
were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other.
Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962--did you say?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented.
Go ahead.

Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things
that--uh--some of Lee's observations about Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian?

Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or
I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke
Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John
Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts,
and George Bouhe does.

Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts--your
mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian?

Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough
to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was
spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.

Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others
who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any
attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and
pick up?

Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly
and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.

Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated
that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and
observations about Russia. Would you continue from that point,
indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's
experiences in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked
of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can
remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather
than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that
day.

Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll
probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on.
But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to
make.

Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed
the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his
general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his
observations of family life there.

He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he
remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this
approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there
were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family
units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and
where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and
Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal
fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration
for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that
everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.

He went into some detail about what is received directly from the
State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen
receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine.
A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the
house--apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to
pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what
other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month
for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in
that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student
that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a
student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to
a level of which they are capable and then put to work.

And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit
further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that
salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as
you continue through the years on a skilled job.

Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job.

Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases?

Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for
example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles
a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time,
he gets a raise over and above that.

Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of
time and has no relation to skill?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he
gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for
example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald,
is the compensation the same?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be.

Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received?

Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that
someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--I don't
remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200
rubles a month for performing the same task.

Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the
ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a
month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American
money?

Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me
that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free
services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out
of his 45 rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food
and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare
minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.

Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his
impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed
little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these
things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of
these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in
some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of
stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the
families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.

Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective
in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room
apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average
Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that----

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or
speculating from things you have read in works published with respect
to life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia
that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would
probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That
living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories
so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what
was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the
end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month
earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made
about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did
mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and
that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina
worked as well as he?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married
or not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that
wives worked?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He
didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember
much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, I
should say, they are encouraged to work.

Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on
his reaction toward this life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. He--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that
he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that
they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words,
to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or
say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this
privilege as we enjoy it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities
on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded
him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or
foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work
comparable to his? This is, was he treated or accorded benefits
different from or in addition to those which would normally have been
accorded him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians
put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was
less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.

Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt
like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming
sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to
do.

Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with
him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself
that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at
least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?

Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected,
as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he
were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and
that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of
course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.

Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what
he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an
impression on your part?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression.

Mr. JENNER. Is it a distinct impression or----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have
asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more
money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that
he----

Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached
the subject.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to
what he told you of his life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his
part--that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for
example, going hunting?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever
discussed by him with you?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up
to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.

Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him
discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States
and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties
and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to
this--return to this country with his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort
prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had
married Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject
discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and
himself?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you
with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?

Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in
Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any
desire on her part to come to the United States?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings
about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that
they were important to him.

Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not
with you directly?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss
directly with you, their route back to the United States?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about
that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the
money to return.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished
now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area
of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political
philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or
government?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the
things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two
political governments--such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains
free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian
citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps
some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat
better than the average citizen lived.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed
in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian
Government?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his political philosophy?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I
knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem
particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country
or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and
perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but,
as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday
afternoon?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job--which I
believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his
employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from
it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion
about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now
whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to
stay in my home.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we
invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said----

Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday
evening forward.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live
until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your
invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina
and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee
became established elsewhere?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then
atmosphere?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any
marital disharmony.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of
that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the
relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and
wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language
barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did
not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the
others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the
other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.

Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had
some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about
Russia and how people live there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that
meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in
their lives?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to
remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I
tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June,
returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed----

Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it.
And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall,
some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones
other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And
then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did
take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your
home, commencing that Sunday night?

Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of
course?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing.

Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where?

Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount.

Mr. JENNER. In what town?

Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12.

Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian,
your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty
with the language?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between
Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during
this week?

Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period
was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were
able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate
sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company
to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of
the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their
being able to play with the children and the children play with each
other.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say
2 weeks?

Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and
probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week
period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday
meeting?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the
telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the
Y.M.C.A.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him
up.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front
of the building?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going
into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.

Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used
the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him
and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going
in and his coming down to meet me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would
continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment
late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your
home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there
had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that
call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that
call?

Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife.

(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.)

Mr. JENNER. Now where were we?

Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about
people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that
there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And
George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he
could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at
some point during this period----

Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and
picked Marina up.

Mr. JENNER. At your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. At my home--and took her, I believe, to a dentist.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of
them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly
because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from
her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the
whole period Marina was gone--which, as I remember it, was the better
part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not
sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a
charity--went to a charity dental clinic.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to
the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?

Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just
mother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law.

Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic?

Mr. TAYLOR. No--not to my recollection. I didn't take--uh--Marina
anyplace that I remember.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of
Dentistry?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out
at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.

Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your
home--first, the month?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none
of it in the month of October 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I
personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was
first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are
talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that
Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going
from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was
a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came--she came to my home for a
period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.

Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from
your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have
dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could
talk to him.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either
for yourself or for Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call
to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable
that I would have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do
so?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble
finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the
Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I
made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him
there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated
at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks
about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into
Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing
that arrested my attention.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine
qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her
child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her
dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all
that she could about her new environment.

Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home--you
mean----?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her
desire to learn English.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead.

Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions,
this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning
English--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and
say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did
appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared
for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later
took them away from her.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series
of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and
becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your
present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall?
Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in
terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English
language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the English language
lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her?

Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her?

Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one
occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by
saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And
then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I
had knowledge of her being beaten by him.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.

Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt----

Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first
apartment they had, on Elsbeth.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and
that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she
and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from
her, and----

Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her.

Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina
that said that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that.

Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of
their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina
left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November----

Mr. JENNER. Left the home?

Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember
who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was
told that she had left him.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with
respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering
this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that--again,
it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to
my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present
at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication
between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I
couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But,
certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and
woman married would want some time alone together. They could have--we
had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could
have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never
happened.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing
intimate or personal between them at these meetings.

Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least,
conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were
evidences of love and affection?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during
the 2-week period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions.

Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and
asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had
been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their
meetings, would call him and he would then come.

Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come----

Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We
were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and I remember at
least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and
rode the bus back to town.

Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or
at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the
streets?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or
three occasions.

Mr. JENNER. With him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of
them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive,
and I never did.

Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it?

Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to
teach a beginner how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he
was unable to operate an automobile?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to
attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in
Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the
various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions
they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to
you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on
your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. You never received anything?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and
Lee Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from
anybody."

Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the
expenditures that I made on their behalf.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was
there something that occurred in particular that brought about the
termination of that 2-week guest period?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile
accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs.
Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least
semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself
food and so on.

Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by
associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which
one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.

Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or
reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your
memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile
accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any
respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas
and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?

Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help
care for Mrs. Hall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in
November--somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct?

Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of
September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this
is all quite vague--I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got
him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up
Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had,
through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to
Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds'
house paraphernalia, clothing and other things----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to
be more specific as to how this came about?

Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I
got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably
aware of. But I don't remember.

And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of
January 1964.

Mr. TAYLOR. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those
agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the
YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where
Marina was living?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to
say this about it.

That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret
Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and
between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to
remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my
memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item,
it occurred to me that at one time--once--I went to--uh--and looked
for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and
tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't
remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh----

Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I
just remember some vague directions that----

Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely.

Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after----

Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15,
because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point
during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and
looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the
occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that----

Mr. JENNER. From whom?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that
came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't
remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening
looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I
don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just
of Lee.

I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a
building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this
area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information
to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he----

Mr. JENNER. What location was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address--but it seems to
me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the
Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z--I--E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I think
they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off
on; but the name I do remember.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building.

Mr. JENNER. Brick?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds
occupy prior thereto?

Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than
the Elsbeth Street home, for example?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class.

Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to
ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely
sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly
or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving.
Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a
Sunday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large
one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers
of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to
this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they
were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household
furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile,
and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?

Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place
located from which you rented the trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently
again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And
we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service
station where I had rented a small covered trailer and----

Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered.

Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with
Mr. Yelchek.

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a
mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your
recollection?

Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not
University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember.
This service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a
mile north of Texas Christian University.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon
investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one
evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.

Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied
you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first
talked to the FBI?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification.
There is no question about it.

Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively
identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since
then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at
this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one
for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it
was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too
involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is?

Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking.

(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr.
Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. 1606670.

(Hands license back to witness.)

Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's
license number on that occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal
procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle
license.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number?

Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas.

Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers?
Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what?

Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year.

Mr. JENNER. They change the number?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do.

Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit
letters "E" and "Y"?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number.

Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir?

Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for
Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.

Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are
what--your prefixes?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all
of the "N" and "P".

Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary."

Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three
letters?

Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the
three that we have just been discussing.

Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed?

Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's
and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You piled all this material in the covered trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. The same day.

Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded
trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street
in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there?

Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service
station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you,
was it?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who
paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say
specifically that Lee did it.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the
trailer in the first instance?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether
upon its return, he paid for it or you did?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance.

Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your
recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not
pay for it?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household
furniture and whatnot into their apartment?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their
apartment that same afternoon or evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening
or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't----

Mr. JENNER. Back with you where?

Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer.

I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not.

Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to
Fort Worth--just approximately?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was
rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're
wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances?

Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move--I am not, again, can't be specific
about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and
I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return
a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a
collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort
Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front
entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the
Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the
Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157.
And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either
all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald
on his trip or life in Russia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute?
It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing.

(Witness peruses document page by page.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy
of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages
of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in
New Orleans, and what not?

Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking.

Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete.
That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't
happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which
is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined 8 by 11-1/2 sheets?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was not?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it
typed?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking
about----

Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed.

Mr. JENNER. It was typed?

Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed--on white paper.

Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he
showed you. Now, would you please go on?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking
about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had
had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with
us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever
read it fully. I read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is
very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to
be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or
content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in
character, or do you have any impression about it?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it
such a long time ago.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was he living?

Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was she home?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I
assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably
the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were
unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost
immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half
blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.

And we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great
detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the
manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed
perhaps an hour or 2 hours.

Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other,
on this occasion?

Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I
arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was
sitting at a table, I think, reading and----

Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper?

Mr. TAYLOR. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper?

Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books
from the library.

Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading?

Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy.
I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy
of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the
title or name of the book.

Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he
had a copy of.

Mr. JENNER. But they were political----

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and
philosophy?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy.

Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit
on this particular evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much
later----

Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant?

Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to----

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if
that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by
this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked
someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was
the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where
they had moved.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about
a block away. And I went there.

Mr. JENNER. What street was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. What town?

Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I
went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?

Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit.

Marina was at home. She--her English had improved enough for her to get
across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I
don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending
night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas--which is our technical high
school and----

Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small
balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I
thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's
toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and
I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the
afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in
Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early
evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it
was midafternoon.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was
working at all.

Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was
employed?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a
very, very vague recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand,
as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at
all at Crozier Tech.

I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words,
telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and
we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe.
And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I
would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10
minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was
in the night school?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school.

Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or
that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?

Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I
don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the
time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she
said he was employed and working and had work at that time?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but
it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee?

Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to
visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last
time I saw Lee.

Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that
time. I know that he wanted it very badly.

Mr. JENNER. He called you for it?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one,
I think I got in the car and took it to him.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you
now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your
impressions of the Oswalds individually.

(Off-the-record discussion followed.)

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was,
first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be
well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I
don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject.

In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had
said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a
statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas
as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties
have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and
communism have.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was
very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of
the subject, why, Lee was through.

He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but
when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very
good case for it.

Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect?

Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would
get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly
emotional subject on everyone's part.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would
think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick
a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I
never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.

Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, I
wouldn't ever have expected this of him.

Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size?

Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size.

Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not
have expected him to----

Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or----

Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there
was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had
any black and blue marks on her person?

Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or
their policies?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at
that time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor.

I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take
exception to Government policies--definitely----

Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that
might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention
Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him
any money or give him any money?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their
behalf?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to
Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county.

Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you
either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help
in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness,
his personal habits in that respect?

Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn
several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his
last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and
Marina?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her
treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about
it. It just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I
are dressed now--in a business coat?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would
be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee
Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because
there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I
saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons
in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been
closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been
so active in seeing that they got along well.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De
Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there.
It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to
Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee--such as where to
look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee
grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or
where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.

Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De
Mohrenschildts.

(Looking through papers.)

Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your
relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?

Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of
course, all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in
Russia and I believe he went to the----

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were----

Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter.

Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a
long period of time?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family.
He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von
Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm
not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the
University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their
Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York
City.

Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please.

Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs.
Brandel--in New York City.

Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born.

Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born?

Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather
quickly after she was born.

And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my
knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part
of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently
well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, I believe,
he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in
the business community.

And then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that
until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure.

Mr. JENNER. Was he then married?

Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt
but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter,
Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she
felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which----

Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married?

Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a
half-sister of my wife's.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved.

Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead.

Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we
dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started
attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more
until--uh--May or June of 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a
Nancy Tilton?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of
Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who is she?

Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date
and she said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she
termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her
to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went
out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I
started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during
this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in
fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole
family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you
like the otherwise?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is.

Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married,
as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my
former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed
away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and
Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and
sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody.

When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs.
Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go
into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter
went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.

Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex.

Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to
Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I
met her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence
until I met her that evening, as previously described.

Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born?

Mr. TAYLOR. In China.

Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's
all my former wife knew of her.

She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side,
was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through
her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with
her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is
B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].

Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have
[referring to paper].

Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name?

Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to----

Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was
just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China.

All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II.
And, as far as Mr. Bogo--as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was
in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems
and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he
was resident of a State mental hospital.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar
[spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to
me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice
president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft.

I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is
a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character
to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he
seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he
must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht
that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a
period of 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's his name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original
name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league
university--Cambridge, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton?
What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?

Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the
telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him
briefly on the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First,
describe him. What kind of personality is he?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat
boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme
friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light.

Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small,
handsome, or otherwise?

Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a
very powerfully built man, like a boxer.

Mr. JENNER. Athletic?

Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes
him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is
a member of the staff.

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would
contact me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of
George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go
home.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And
he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to
get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing
this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.

Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life.
The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.

Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things
like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52--is a
little unusual.

Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street?

Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel.

He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to
his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position
for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he
could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this
could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only.

Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week?

Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned
convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with
the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the
respects you have indicated in regards to him?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar.

Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does
she?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini.

Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy?

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's--uh--I have heard them say
everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed
democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia
and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again,
so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their
designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see--on November 21, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?

Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter
that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the
De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the
assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?

Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all
from them. My parents have received correspondence from them--none of
which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was
mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De
Mohrenschildts?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your
acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the
record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add
that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence
having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the
Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and
I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or
plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably
the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that?

Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all,
to--uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have
traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to
Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo,
Tex., to the tip of South America----

Mr. JENNER. Panama?

Mr. TAYLOR. And----

Mr. JENNER. On beyond that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of
South America.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further
information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the
portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to
invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area
while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these
observations----

Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that
invasion preparation?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the
invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they
were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in
the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to
anyone--and when these acquaintances returned----

Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their
daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from
them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after
they returned?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them
being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton?

Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife,
Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital.
This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the
people----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home----

Mr. JENNER. Where is that?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends
of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in
their home----

Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully
evicted them from it.

Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De
Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a
friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.

Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people
who owned the house?

Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who
owned it returned.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had
advance permission to occupy that home?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had
occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who
evicted them could determine from what was eaten and----

Mr. JENNER. In other words, they were trespassing?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.

(Off the record discussion follows.)

Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De
Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement
by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are
stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down
through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of
the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And
it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De
Mohrenschildts' daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get.
What was that?

Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an
indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or
information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They
had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they
had traveled extensively through Communist countries.

Mr. JENNER. What countries?

Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and
Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had
met Marshal Tito.

Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period
that you were married to their daughter?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage.
However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the
family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live--if
you know?

Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y.

Mr. JENNER. Is she married?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name?

Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson.

Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside--if you know?

Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since
they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said
that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other
than that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have
already said that you would like to add to the record that you think
might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further
investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is
there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the
record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is
pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record
statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said
on the record?

Mr. TAYLOR. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition
if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate
with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and
read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make
any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire
and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the
right to waive that if you see fit.

Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long
deposition--about Wednesday of next week.

Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much
longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for
coming here despite the inconvenience.

Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help.



TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's
Commission.


Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing
voluntarily at our request?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if
you wish counsel?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it.

Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your
transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters
charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you
wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to
waive the signing of your deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would
like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of
a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If
you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.

Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the
record.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning
probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would
that be convenient for you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning,
then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your
testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know
if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me.

Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go
ahead and spell it for us now.

Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not
"en" as you have it.

Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name.

Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic
spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and
the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway
Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.

Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number?

Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you
because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work
with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.

Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d.

Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that
connection?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to
the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full
address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as
seismologist.

Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of
1955, when I took my present job.

Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or
with whom were you associated, prior thereto?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co.

Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.

Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?

Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist,
you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your
profession or your particular calling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced
person and I didn't speak English enough.

Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster
than I thought.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my
life--approximately at that time?

Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native
of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my
parents came to Latvia.

Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received
my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944,
we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to
South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg,
P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year,
excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.

Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g
[spelling], Germany.

Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time.

Mr. JENNER. When did you marry?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938.

Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us.

Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and
we haven't heard of him since that time.

Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a
distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something
different from the Russians?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know,
Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are
in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an
occupational force--I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital
of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.

Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is
approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between
master's and Ph. D.

Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time
and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. JENNER. In 1955?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November
of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis.

Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located
here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.;
Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell,
N. Mex., and I left----

Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a
month.

Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee,
Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate,
Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company
at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.

Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went
quite a way.

Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological
computer for that particular company.

Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our
law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and
this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission,
and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by
the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint
resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr.
Mamantov.

I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on
Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You
are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the
taking of your deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had.

Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire,
and do you agree to waive it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal
terms.

Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there.
No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from
Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I
quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. With Sun?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in
October, the 1st of October 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian
language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any
teaching of the language?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area.
I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in
1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was
the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No--1962 and 1963. Now,
I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.

Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite
extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished.

Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for
any law enforcement agencies?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have
translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage
certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with
divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here
in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the
first time for the police department.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called
upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or
of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or
translating?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of
Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice.

Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior
notice?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police
department?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's
Lieutenant--they call him Chief.

Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of
minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton,
C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right
now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.

Mr. JENNER. And who is he?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not
mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service.
And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and
then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.

Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first----

Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum.

Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with
this tragedy?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did
you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before
the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I
heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I
felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly
well his background here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time----

Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say----

Mr. JENNER. 4:30?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30.

Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr.
Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car.

Mr. JENNER. To pick you up?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was
sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird.

Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird?

Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane.

Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City
Police Station?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the
detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the
hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.

Mr. JENNER. You just went through that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that
I saw.

Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there?

Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine,
whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous
telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you,
your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943--we never
were separated.

Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a
young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that
moment? Knowingly?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally.

Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no
contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone
conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs.
Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I
never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into
another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought
in and she also had a baby.

Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then,
there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for
whom I interpreted.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him.

Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who
was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this
young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started
with "H".

Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he
will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.

Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of
recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and
relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at
least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the
responses--the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this
because--I mean--this was pure translation.

Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't
you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try
to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's
residence in Irving----

Mr. JENNER. To which she responded?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is
what I was getting at?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there.

Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but
I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember
approximately what she was asked.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine
around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's
home. She answered positively then.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--I'm sure that positively is affirmative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what
time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police
station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6
o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in
Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.

Mr. JENNER. The previous evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he
had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into
kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually
she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said
usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was
tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so,
so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to
eat breakfast. Now----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything
about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to
make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I
don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he
didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this--I don't want any
of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall
definitely.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand.

Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we
would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the
subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned
from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or
are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no
recollection, I would prefer you say so.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations
somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember
also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast;
apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her,
which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was
after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your
answers--do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she
stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning.

Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that
morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little
bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen
she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her.
From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him
and she ate.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that
she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then
rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you
recall that she said that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem--either I recall or I
recall future instances from translating her life history.

Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to
exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate--and to
exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your
mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that.

Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your
powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your
rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do
you understand?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't
return backward--I mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the
time he was leaving. After a while she got up.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning
it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the
translating you----

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left
the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to
the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for
the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought
he didn't eat.

Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember
how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check
her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage,
and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit
different position than she remember it before.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the
blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was
asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention
particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket.
Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it
looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but
she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this
moment the gun was brought in.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to
the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast----

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she
had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I
assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went
to the garage.

Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that
time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after
Marina finished.

Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked,
and did she respond on that subject?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that
question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection
with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the
day. Do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning,
or she voluntarily stated----

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the
kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for
the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and
think about it.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she
went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when
police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very
important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the
exact time.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you
first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the
kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went
during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do
not know.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before
noontime?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state.

Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the
police arrived, which was in midafternoon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked
about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a
very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen
before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the
questioning.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the
blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and
configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?

Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?"

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before.
After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it
was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he
get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would
bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if
she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at
this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or
not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in
the garage prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit
evasive answer.

Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your
opinion as to whether it was evasive.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it
were there.

Mr. JENNER. She did not know----

Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however,
she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that
Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and
you translated it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the
blanket in the garage?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the
blanket in the garage prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she
had discovered it prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark
brown--black, she said.

Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought
in the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was
actually brought into the room, and state what she said.

Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the
gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know,
she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked
her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it
was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color,"
and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her,
and at that time the gun was brought in.

Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go
back.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or
discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of
November 22, to examine the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon
or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and
this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it.

Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day,
what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position
as she has seen in the past.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in
the garage?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't
anything in it.

Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This
I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had
seen before, so much I remember.

Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition,
shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from
what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had
seen it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a
package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.

Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the
package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22,
what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it
looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package
of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and
knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch
his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she
left it in same shape she had found it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of
the package?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back
so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the
package.

Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the
garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it
before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage
when she saw it on November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her
belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I
remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that
particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different
shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in
the garage in one of the corners.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the
gun.

Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or
condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of
placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when
she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain
what she discovered was a rifle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket
package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping
of that character?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package
brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into
the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was
with her when she did that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure--I don't know what happened before that.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day
at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of
Mrs. Paine and the police?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to
the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the
police were present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that
is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of
the police?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the
garage on two occasions that day.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like,
as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I
know. If you don't remember, you don't.

Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you
don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your
mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for
you to testify one way or the other.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best
you can, your recollection of what took place.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude
by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she
testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the
garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior
to the time the police arrived.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to
testify one way or the other on that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the
fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package--she saw
an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the
size of the package she testified it was.

Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that
she had seen the gun in sections?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Today?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the
record.)

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw,
and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and
she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there--so much--you
asked me.

Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will
be certain of it and see if we can find it.

(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred
to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following:

("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the
line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up
she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was
poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember,
and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a
few minutes.")

Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the
garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction,
what did she say?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the
point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or
she saw during the time when police arrived.

Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own
prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way
it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have
testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the
package, if she said anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific
questions about particular blanket.

Mr. JENNER. What questions?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation
to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat
whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage,
had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for
example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was
aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of
the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was
the sequence, as you recall?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the
premises of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is
that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at
the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she
said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this
particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't
think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular
morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun
was with her belongings.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not
brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to
her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was
not brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in,
was the gun itself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what
I mean by a sling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right
now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure--I wouldn't be sure of
the statement.

Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated
when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it
was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun
which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other
if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a
gun in the Soviet Union--I can say so much for sure and that's where I
didn't like this.

Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no
person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your
part, not what she said.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not
to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she
went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet
Union.

Mr. JENNER. Might have been?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question
was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she
said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns
even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was
this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she
was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled
the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are
dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you
some more questions.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself--all right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied
that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that
he had the gun that she had in mind?

Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun?

Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns,
he always was interested in guns--this statement she made.

Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a
rifle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a
reply.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on
that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination
of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically
as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I
went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the
blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it,
or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"--was she questioned that closely?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether
there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon
in the blanket package?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question.

Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she
was not examined on that subject?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether
she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon
she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was
asked.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or
information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it
was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt.

Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was
in Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in
Russia and supposedly was hunting here.

Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in
the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for
hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used
to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.

Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No.

Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June
1962.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and
reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in
Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had
hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen
him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally
or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their
home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth,
sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry
sighting is?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked.

Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an
incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter,
she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the
translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry
sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle--I'll put it this
way--about her seeing him with a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Any weapon?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall
about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle
was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned
about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said
on this occasion is relevant to us.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I
remember--I think I said everything I could remember.

Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything
that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of
each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when
the gun was brought into the room?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down.

Mr. JENNER. Made notes?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her.

Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination
he summarized his notes in her presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't
write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs.
Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I
probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman
to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or
"me"--that's the mistake it was.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the
presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance
correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to
Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you
thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian
and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark
about the grammar.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.

Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled.

Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his
two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that
position (indicating).

Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)?

Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position.

Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to
examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in
the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are
the same, are a dark brown or black."

He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored.
He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the
gun--I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then
they asked her about a sight on the gun.

Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope--she said, "No; I never have seen gun
like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet
Union.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part
that she referred back to the Soviet Union?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way.

Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth,
so you can go ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union,
she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing."

Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever
it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have
a telescopic sight on it?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part
of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said
again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was
the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling
it----

Mr. JENNER. The stock?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked
about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."

Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her
for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his
possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she
couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the
past.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they
questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it
weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she
had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how
close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that
the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all
she thought, to fairly summarize?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color
you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They
particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun
which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the
gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and
asked her if she has seen him carrying something.

Mr. JENNER. Carrying something?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see
him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.

Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left
that morning he was carrying anything?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And her response was?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house,
or whatever he was taking--means of transportation.

Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he
had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to
Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if
anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday
night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they
go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point
to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that
previous evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the
extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and
what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?

Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having
the gun, and "this is the gun he used."

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no
questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous
evening?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather
than on Friday as usual?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did they go into any questions with respect to the
acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or
in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?

Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place?
What was its duration?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. You
see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two
statements--from both of them.

Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's?

Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements
made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement,
as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of
Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and
Mrs. Paine's responses?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian.

Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether
Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2-1/2 or 3 hours
altogether for the typist to type that.

Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the
statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and
then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then
sign them.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were
present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to
Marina--yes, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina,
were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have
testified?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal
conversation more or less about the child who was present.

Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian,
were they conversations related to personal matters--the children?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to
her protection--Marina's protection.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?"

Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back
to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she
looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent,
then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I
didn't want to go into conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you
are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be
deported in that event?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would
happen to her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the
best of your recollection that was said?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them?

Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that
3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember.

Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but
without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything
asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether
they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any
problems in that connection?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you
teach Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs.
Paine's command of the Russian language?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person
and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for
knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or
translated for Marina?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this
questioning?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my
mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.

Mr. JENNER. Was this some time afterward?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward.

Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no--the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the
picture.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then?

Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened
the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody
else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and
started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like
in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very
little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I
heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around
and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young
men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so
surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station.
Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me
in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself
immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her
at the police station and my name is so and so.

In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for
me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I
said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am
very tired."

That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement
of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going
up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me
somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into
the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group
again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the
escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out
was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told
him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please
call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De
Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you
through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything
about this particular occasion.

Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also
present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a
gun.

Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this,
please?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that
Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew,"
and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I
didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check
on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is
a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?

Mr. JENNER. Quaker.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that
you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me
to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's
part.

Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the
previous evening; is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember--this is overlapping two
occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the
statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the
record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the
name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956.

Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his
physical characteristics first?

Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud
in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes.

Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Expansive type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I
met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.

Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married,
twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce
was pending.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that
general area, who is now his wife.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember----

Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to
spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was
the way she was called in the Russian society.

Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know
George.

Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it
this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.

Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in
Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet
again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories,
all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him
and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very
small--actually was just a regular residence.

Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you
participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would
be interested?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church.

Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm
talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If
I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward
the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to
describe a man this way----

Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to
ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person
wouldn't do it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your
acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to
the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting
at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him,
as you have described?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no, no; I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Or known of him?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this
was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was
in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long
because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid
this person as much as possible.

Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of
George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I
thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De
Mohrenschildts?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my
mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the
De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that
Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that
remark was made to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation
between my mother-in-law and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present----

Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present.

Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your
presence?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives.
Mother-in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears
store, except that time.

Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact
between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?

Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone.

Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your
mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with
Marina?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take
your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I
don't want to take your time.

Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little
carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with
your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was
because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and
asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant
at that time--you see the connection?

Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the
way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my
mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my
mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her
because she needs a translator.

Mr. JENNER. You may bring her.

Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows
we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for
her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to
answer your questions.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as
far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite
nervous by being by herself and so on.

Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which
I have tried to do with you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be,
because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't
remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated
with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to
separate right now without going back and reading the report.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De
Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with
respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions.

Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to
a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City,
Mexico?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know.
Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will
leave it to them.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to
us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet
representatives and Mikoyan----

Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This,
actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this
mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but
this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend
beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to
organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but
I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active
participants in organizing the church.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this
group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about
which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe----

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We
came in 1955--this already was going for a couple of years.

Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons
interested?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe----

Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for
the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.--oh,
gosh, what is her name--Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her
first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in
the telephone book later on.

Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian
intellectuals?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level
than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are
interested in what?

Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low----

Mr. JENNER. As yours?

Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called
miners, and the Voshinins are the same.

Mr. JENNER. Who else?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's
called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin,
Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them
were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's
case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e
[spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now,
an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s
[spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it
exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the
telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.

Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship
is between her and Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and
Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people
actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial
supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money
because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute,
but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and
through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the
first time.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please
state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free,
in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as
chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony
is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and
evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we
were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life,
his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political
trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can
say of him.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you
called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the
Dallas office?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the
assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the
knowledge I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law,
Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion
as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political
leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I
don't want to suggest the conversation to you.

Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what?

Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what
his political leanings were in her opinion?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation,
after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs.
Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to
our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I
stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate.

Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your
mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and
from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone
from this country to Russia?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because
after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow
acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different
sources of him and his political opinions.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because
there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in
each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that
they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand
her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them
comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your
heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me
your reaction to that.

Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was
approached by them or people who tried to help them.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help
them?

Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many
occasions they shouldn't do it.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested
person.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was
sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he
had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is
strengthened due to the 22d assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on
any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any
direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is,
you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a
realization----

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of
his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and
supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in
my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and
I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were
asked before.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and
that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that
respect?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society,
I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local
Republican Party.

Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of
or has there come to your attention any information or statement
attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or
opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say,
prior to November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his
capacity as President of the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he
was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning
the President or any other name.

Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can
rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or
early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I
heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be
a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to
my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405,
if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out
in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we
went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White
Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.

Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right.

Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came
from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the
record.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee
Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to
his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his
political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring,
avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to
violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so,
are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help
Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I
mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into
political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant,
was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people,
did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one
reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community,
in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think
well of his personality?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try
to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep
Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her
in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.

Mr. JENNER. He was holding back?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation
in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but
only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group
toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not
reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is
what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for
a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many
instances.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance.

Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after
people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own
houses, he was undesirable to those people.

Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your
mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.

Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what
happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to
teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students,
and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for
my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian
community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several
subdivisions--first, as to her personality.

Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl,
was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion
was that she is very pleasant to be around.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian
community for truth and veracity?

Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom?

Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a
reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean.

Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family
discussion.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way,
but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union
so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him
living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean
distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable
apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her
on the first-hand information.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with
respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now,
that is a political question.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law----

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second----

Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the
Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United
States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist
Party of the Soviet Union first.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic
Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard
of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist
Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody
considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did
Oswald himself.

Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the
Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political
views and might actively support those views here in the United States?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion.
I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political
discussions, I'll put it this way.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the
Fords?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was
married--he's divorced.

Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be
married.

Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they
were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the
Oswalds?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable
impulse on his part?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior?

Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We
objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying
to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her
husband beat her up.

Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report
that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the
community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her,
after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements.
Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in
Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting
money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this
more and more violently.

Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of
which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on
occasions?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for
a couple of weeks or a week.

Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get
this person----

Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had
a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her
home.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did.

Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't
think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or
for 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it?

Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].

Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene,
H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.

Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.

Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son?

Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name--that's
correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call
your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your
father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it
appears.

Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case--since my name and my father's
name are the same?

Mr. MAMANTOV. The same--it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald,
it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.

Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.

Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist.

Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. What was his first name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil
Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the
class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen
was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.

Mr. JENNER. He is a young man?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army?

Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian
in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army.
He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied
Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of
the Russian language already.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this
student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't
that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished
that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of
1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he
and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private
lessons for both of them.

Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They came--right now, they came to my house. Not
before--the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and
Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both
of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described
as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he
didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and
I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen,
and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and
willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring
Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to
you about the Oswalds one night?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit
with us.

Mr. JENNER. Your home?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say,
sometime--March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday
or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party
where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his
wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was
present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were
present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was
present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the
conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my
mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and
I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating.
You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those
houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian.
Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and
we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't
speak Russian very much except with Marina. She was very shy and
didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with
Oswald on political questions, because he understood.

Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife,
she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the
American occupation of Europe.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name--it isn't
his original name.

Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory,
spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?

Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's
originally his name.

Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer--correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here
in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for
quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been
with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few
occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in
the past--whom else--the same I know them very well personally but we
didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you
that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might
be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of
President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the
assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please
state what you have in mind?

Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union
so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but
knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her
arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet
Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of
my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to
get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be
old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and
here, a young lady--20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out
and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I
know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out
of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my
mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's
everything.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had
a short talk with you before we began this deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our
off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition,
that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record
discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is
inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is.

Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any
time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to
influence you in any statements you might have made?

Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and
in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the
moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that
while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards,
I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your
deposition.

Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov
at this point.



TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS

The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April
6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter.


Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise
your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly
swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and
Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Today?

Mr. BELIN. Now.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873).

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. May I ask approximately how old you are?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Seventy-four years old.

Mr. BELIN. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to
America?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I
was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia.

I was educated in Russia, in Moscow.

I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian
territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of
the city where I was teaching in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Latvia became independent in 1918?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three
Baltic countries around 1939, or so?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1940. In 1913, I got married.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Do you need a very detailed story on her life?

Mr. BELIN. No.

Mrs. GRAVITIS [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils,
and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd
at that time. This was in 1915.

Mr. BELIN. Now it is Leningrad?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Leningrad.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia
from that time on until after--for how long?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my
daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't
let him out.

Mr. BELIN. From 1919 onward, where did you live?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a
teacher in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you teach?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to
junior high, and the Russian language.

Mr. BELIN. Did you work for the State or for a private school?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. State school.

Mr. BELIN. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the
Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the city?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian
border.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. All the time.

Mr. BELIN. Until when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a
teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as
a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in
Riga, which is the Latvian Capital.

Mr. BELIN. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to
Latvia with you?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't
go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923.

Mr. BELIN. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia
then, and what happened to him?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station
manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And
we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what ever became of him?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my
sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 1944, I went to Germany.

Mr. BELIN. You went with your daughter and son-in-law?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; and two children.

Mr. BELIN. And your two children?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Your two grandchildren?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you stay in Germany?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Bavaria.

Mr. BELIN. In a camp?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and
so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences
until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Four years in--until October of 1949, when we went to
Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States.

Mr. MAMANTOV. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started
with "G".

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go in the United States when you got here?
Where have you lived since you have come here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York City.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived
since then?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 1-1/2 or 2. However, we left New York
February 28, 1952.

Mr. BELIN. And you came to----

Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post.

Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small
towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.

Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with
your daughter and son-in-law?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume
then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have
lived in Texas?

Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other
than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession.

Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr.
Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating
the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the
sidewalks.

I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was
born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual
students.

Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to
Texas, is private tutoring?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring
on and off, because it is not enough students.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs.
Michael Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I
was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't
remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian
instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons
cost?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid?

Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but
I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.

Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50.

Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration.

Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour.

Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or
would this be several people in the class?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had
two, then I received $3.

Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was
taking lessons before I came to that school.

Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School.
This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and
Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.

Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office
and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law
would teach her at home.

Mr. BELIN. At whose home?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per
hour, private lesson.

Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the
Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious.

Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers,
that you know of, in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me?

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in
Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs.
Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher
was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes.
Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of
the city.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian
teacher?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through
a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question
her any more.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the
grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean?

Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher,
or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political
discussion involved?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs.
Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February,
and then she discontinued taking lessons.

Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years
old, so we say 1961.

Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960.

Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more
Russian language lessons?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit
taking lessons?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs.
Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party,
that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and
his wife is a Russian.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the
phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio,
and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the
English language and nobody could help her.

Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that
time.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald,
her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina
Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two.

Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was
said?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a
severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the
Paine's home.

Mr. BELIN. This would have been when?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This
was this past summer, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from
and where she lived before she came to this country?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in
Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in
Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk,
and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She
lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived
on this street in Leningrad.

Mr. BELIN. After she was married?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got
married?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again?

Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then
together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad
on this street, Ligovka Street.

Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers
this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor
part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow
brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she
was married, or what her husband did?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a
pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and
mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of
Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came
with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you
out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United
States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason
she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.

Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to
get out of Russia other than that she had luck?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I
didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who
is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got
out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and
couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the
United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you
mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any
kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of
work is below his dignity.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by
the word Communist?

Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just
what she would call it.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a
person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in
this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said,
"Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in
their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the
characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."

Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly
how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I
think in your investigation it is very important.

She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the
individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word,
which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who
believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement.
Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to
insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of
this word.

Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and
it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist
ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist
Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist
Party.

And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I
translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So
it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth
Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this
third step is eventually for this particular work.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to
become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't
talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of
the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for
the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because
this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They
are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic
people.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to
the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which
I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal
experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this,
who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the
Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I
was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the
Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the
screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the
members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become,
they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the
individual deed.

Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it
is now?

Mr. BELIN. Both.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which
is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are
approximately 5 or more million people members.

Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there
are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or
members of the communistic youth organization.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get
education. You cannot advance in your educational system.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from
the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this
was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you
to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them
as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to
work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free
education or scholarship.

Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this
affect whether or not you get out of the country?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in
Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans
here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to
meet with the Russians any more.

Mr. BELIN. Why not?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel
that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work
here?

Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However,
mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a
small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and
they didn't have an automobile.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer.
And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he
went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or
had done in Russia and where he had gone?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so
much. I didn't ask her any more questions.

Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald
have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she
volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people
locally would have.

Mr. BELIN. Why was this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American.

Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was
it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a
member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee
Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion,
if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to
have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go
hunting?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting
clubs over there.

Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are
professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party.
Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.

Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to
a hunting club?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to
discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better
because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were
better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better
area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives,
that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.

Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United
States?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she
was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our
President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was
unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States?

Mr. BELIN. Here in the States.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she
did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her
daughter.

Mr. BELIN. And what church?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox.

Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you
had with her that she said about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is
below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very
much. That is my personal interpretation.

Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina
Oswald said about her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with
Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times.

Mr. BELIN. Two more?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total.

Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When was the second one?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember
exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.

Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina
Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina
Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine
about the Oswalds?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a
photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New
Orleans.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet
Marina Oswald or her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I
mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring
Marina to our house.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was
in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I
am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some
information on us and notifying their own people.

Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey
Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage
trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.

Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about
whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be
trying to spy, or what have you?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I said to----

Mr. BELIN. To Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be
more careful.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine say to that?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American
woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and
very generous.

Mr. BELIN. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the
Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course.

Mr. BELIN. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been
asked to come here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered,
if you interpret it that way.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey
Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean personal opinion?

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald--I did not know her
last name, she always called her Marina and Lee--so Mrs. Paine told
me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why.
She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't
have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back
to the Soviet Union." I said that this isn't true. I was surprised,
and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person
doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in
the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true,
that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her
personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere.

She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and
bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she
is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help,
had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work,
and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very
surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American
didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to
people who don't have money.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more
to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should
be noted here, that we should discuss?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Maybe, but I don't remember right now.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he
even hit her, Marina.

Mr. BELIN. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She
said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write
her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would
reprimand his wife."

Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been
different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife,
or was this something different that happened when they came to New
Orleans?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Marina did not tell me.

Mr. BELIN. I mean Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that
might be helpful here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this
year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had
intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that
she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina
knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew
that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs.
Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip
somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else.

Mr. BELIN. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon
which to base it?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; this is my personal feeling.

Mr. BELIN. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I would help you more, but I don't have enough
acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I
know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine
or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so
Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her
husband came home after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. Why did he come home, do you know?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And
she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it
easier on her after that particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here,
Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help.

Mrs. GRAVITIS. Thank you; Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the
deposition and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down
and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and
let it go directly to Washington?

Mr. MAMANTOV. She trusts you without signing.

Mr. BELIN. So you waive the signing?

Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.



TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY

The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March
31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GREGORY. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley
J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's
Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have
been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the
week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony.
I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the
Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of
Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge
of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained
as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of
Oklahoma; isn't that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University?

Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student.

Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University?

Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's?

Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live?

Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is
that not correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do
you know?

Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of
the exact year.

Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is
that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been
February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right
around my birthday, which is February the 10th.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born?

Mr. GREGORY. 1941.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the
telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared
before the Commission in Washington.

Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I
guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave
before the Commission?

Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the
only thing he said about the testimony.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of
that event?

Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would
suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house
in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted
with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with
the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian
language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something;
some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to
use Russian.

I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because
I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was
staying at the time.

And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and
I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard.
So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a
visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle
of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald
or Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962,
your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?

Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned?

Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been
at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our
house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first
time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this
dinner which you mentioned.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the
summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his
brother's place in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting?

Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's
wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee,
and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the
conversation was at that time?

Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken
in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I
believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And
then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how
they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to
know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all
the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about
the Oswalds' life in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of
discussion about it, but not this time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the
Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate
number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you
saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you
met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that
you saw them?

Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and
right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited
in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good
idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite
a big help.

Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June,
a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went
over to their house, my father and I.

We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten
minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from
Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I
think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember
the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from,
say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the
middle of September.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father
gave for the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller,
her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr.
Clark. I can't give you their first names.

Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there?

Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a
possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.

Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were
there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe
my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's
husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't
there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more,
if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after
Thanksgiving of 1962.

Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she
and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or
something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the
visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode
the bus over from Dallas.

They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and
brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them
down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went
and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee
or Marina Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around
$35 or $40, something like that.

This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember,
$35, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that
correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the
Oswalds any money?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money?

Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them
gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he
gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any
bills while in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would
go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping
and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get
groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But
the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much
they spent on food?

Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little
they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat.
He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and
he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he
would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought
very little though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any
money or pay any bills; is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be,
"Yes; I did not see them"?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or
discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?

Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about
them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for
June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds
together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would
you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or
Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald
went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why
he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?

Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I
never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.

At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it,
he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American
system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and
the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I
ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.

Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was
very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I
don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and
going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the
Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was
sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or
something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and
the second one would be one which I am not sure of.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have
indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from
the Marines?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told
me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school,
from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers
that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information
which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a
discharge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that
you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you
that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and
you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from
Arlington?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet
Union?

Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to
him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember
asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always
read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter
because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to
buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and
phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran
some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he
had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into
another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of
Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and
they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And
then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place
in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup
and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had
to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it
around to face Lenin's new position.

He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in
the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist
Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as
opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out
of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist
Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and
therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought
it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party
were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise
and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a
disgust for the members of the Communist Party.

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my
impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which
the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true
Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be,
in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my
part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that
he worked and what he did?

Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember
his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough
to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand
in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes
and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how
poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet
Union, that he didn't eat very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet
citizens, or----

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received
more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held
similar jobs?

Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly
received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the
Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of
favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing
shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived
in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave,
because he had no place to go.

If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get
a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in
the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place,
and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the
apartment.

Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said,
"Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite
a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I
am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She
said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know
who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was,
because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later
somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is,"
and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.

I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was
some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another
fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to
correspond with these people over there.

He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was
getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one
was the son of a highly fairly influential person.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel?

Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him
being a general's son or a colonel's son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you?

Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one
letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal
letter. Maybe I would.

Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name?

Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel,
I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct.

Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one
you just mentioned?

Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining
something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where
it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me
something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal
matters. I can't even remember the contents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at
this point?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember,
that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly
he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has
been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet
Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be
given when he got there.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and
I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was
interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were
quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was,
fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to
go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application
for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign
students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not
accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over
there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him
somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like
this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to
Russia was to enter college or university there?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but
that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make
this application.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application
to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you
in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had
received by Russian authorities?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was
touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he
felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about
meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina
worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to
leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where
they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement
for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he
said about that?

Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings?

Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to
why they did let Marina come back.

Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident
where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow
it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her
go. It was more or less an accident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had
been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or
something that he couldn't readily explain?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted
Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of
reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the
subject of Marina being able to come back with him?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with
all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for
her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous
difficulties as a result of this?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that
Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was
put upon her by her friends?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you,
that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done
in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned
as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which
was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And
I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee
would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the
mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to
speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him
an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter,
because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't
remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the
Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American.
It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends
that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not.

When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations
was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they
took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back,
and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get
quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the
Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the
street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's
name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this
to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks.

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he
looked at things critically over there.

He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is
right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he
saw over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now
your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and
perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it
out?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was
just complaining about things, do you?

Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point
was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone
who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not
that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He
seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot
read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was
a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very
brilliant man and very able leader.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said
about him, Mr. Khrushchev?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that
was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he
would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind,
and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.

Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say
anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because
I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their
living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy
or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as
admiration for Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his
remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him
concerning Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their
apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said,
"He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a
good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about
Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any
adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the
presence of anyone else?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made
any remarks about Governor Connally?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she
too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President
Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably
indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English
or understand English?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that?

Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be
true. I couldn't answer the question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak
English during the time you knew her?

Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert
Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would
go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.

Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what?

Mr. GREGORY. Ate.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the
corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in
time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What
have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't
learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had
used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to
study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if
she used them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the
extent to which she could understand English?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with
me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you
do," something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong
accent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a
judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly
spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than
I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to
in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of
grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get
peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say
like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct
him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why
Marina did not learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not
picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home
and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious
attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was
an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't
help her.

I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would
send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct
them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these
lessons started after I had gone away to school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's
ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen
this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit
of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the
grammar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was
particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been
in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he
could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical
knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him
do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.

I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in
Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read?

Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library
and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read
in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the
end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the
grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he
would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was,
but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he
always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book
about Lenin?

Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was
all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought
home from the library that you saw in his apartment?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely
interesting. I can't give any titles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of
the study of history?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very
smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was
my opinion of him.

He just said he always had this love of history, and he several
times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to
get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or
something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he
did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted
to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history
and philosophy and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to
TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you?

Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was?

Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a
lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he
was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time
I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we
went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening
classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he
wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the
officials at TCU concerning the night school program?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came
back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the
occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he
referred to the schedule.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive
whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when?

Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either
way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was
encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an
excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not
finish high school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about
his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that
he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he
received from his job at the factory?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have
enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the
factory?

Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of
income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember
the amount that he was paid.

Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was
the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It
seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and
he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of
which he seemed to be very proud.

I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a
closet full of junk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots?

Mr. GREGORY. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them?

Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one
article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet
Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you
have just expressed?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet
Union, but I can't identify the articles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might
have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was
the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return,
and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he
spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow
before leaving the Soviet Union to return?

Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he
was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I
heard him mention being in Moscow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he
encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to
return to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the
difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put
on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out
specifically.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered
with the U.S. authorities in that regard?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about
the U.S. officials concerning his return?

Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned
him money to return?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way
or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation
would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect
this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never
expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that
gave him the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the
Government officials concerning his return?

Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to
the State Department?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions
with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet
Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?

Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an
outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the
two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case,
that she did pay attention to him.

He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly,
could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where
the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or
something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he
helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were
lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them
any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if
he had too many acquaintances.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the
fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help
him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he
evidently gave him quite a bit of help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was
trying to learn English?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and
refused to pay attention.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in
learning Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian
language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he
went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just
stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina
helped him quite a bit.

Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared
to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.

In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his
Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and
therefore he gave me the dictionary.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman?

Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing
and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there
or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate
it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you
in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the
Commission. How do you want to handle it?

Mr. GREGORY. Either way.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service.

Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and
we will eventually return it to you.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you
are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to
Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are
the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that
available.

Mr. GREGORY. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips
that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to
firearms?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything
that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special
interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used
that terminology?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but
evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met
quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure,
but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that,
too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have
said about that?

Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had
written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they
refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her
difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they
disapproved her decision to come to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that
she had with her relatives?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to
you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion?

Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested
and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to
me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it
was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept
saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."

She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I
will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite
enthusiastic about America.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested
to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you
discuss that with her at all?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and
she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into
it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't
want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I
can't answer specifically.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help
her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian
or to improve your Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with
Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the
Soviet Union and return to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was
dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed
to be one of his major things.

And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he
went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the
workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This
might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that
they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe
in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he
believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the
party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things,
that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they
were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because
so-and-so and so-and-so."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised
in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told
you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East
Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about
that.

Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just
asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and
something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it,
where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or
some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it,
but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet
Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in
Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?

Mr. GREGORY. He did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I
have just stated?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the
United States to Texas?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the
conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you
previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed
to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he
thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about
the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never
had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I
remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them
to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be
interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really
have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.

He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living
in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad
part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment
there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of
wealth and position?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he
ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to
Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission
to become married, or anything of that nature?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite
fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you
about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already
covered?

Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian
military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of
equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from
Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he
knew anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you?

Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and
economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this,
because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very
much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than
most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us
as much as you can.

Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the
impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he
would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because
he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview
with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a
question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind
of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't
know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion
about economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him
and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on
their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity
of the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of
the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because
I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get
someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to
get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but
he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just
talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we
went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her
arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad.
You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was
the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to
be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms?

Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do?

Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say?

Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the
medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through
it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut
on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out
again, but it was a real hot moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other
reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?

Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard
reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?

Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this
time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did
you get the black eye.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any reason to think that----

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own
experience?

Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought
maybe it could have happened back there then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your
opinion that he had a bad temper?

Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person
that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We
were very friendly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper,
is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit
him as an agent?

Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed
toward the Soviet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just
didn't enter my mind that he could have been.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered
this question; is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously.

Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all?

Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less
his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was
interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange
program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students
and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was,
how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told
me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never
get there."

He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get
involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought
about everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on
your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the
assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was,
but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say,
fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.

But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him
mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the
assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the
assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion
you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you
knew him in 1962?

Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I
enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very
pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He
had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more
or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone
he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath
him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.

I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they
were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.

And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced
the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations
were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very
smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other
examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about
what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of
education?

Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal
education?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make
any inquiries on that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished
high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher
education.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the
opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only
picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of
person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into
a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him
doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the
assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you?

Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general
judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go
downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would
probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my
general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever
happened. It is just a general judgment.

Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is
it not?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that
caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was
peculiar in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he
never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did
think that about Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation
was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders
in the various countries?

Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement,
and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the
leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?

Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I
have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of
Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall
that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles
being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to
reflect on your prior testimony?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the
statement. It was more or less----

Mr. LIEBELER. Philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed
at all?

Mr. GREGORY. No; no such animosity.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack
Ruby?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits,
as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned?

Mr. GREGORY. He never drank in my presence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any
other women during the time that you knew him?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he was?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or in his possession?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or discuss the subject of firearms?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the
Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent?

Mr. GREGORY. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first
time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he
came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time he had been to TCU?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to
commit suicide?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The same question as to Marina?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know James Martin?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never met James Martin at any time?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet him in Oklahoma?

Mr. GREGORY. No; I never met him in Oklahoma.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin?

Mr. GREGORY. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his
brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another
half brother and his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. The name was Pic, was it not?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I learned that after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination did you learn that there was a
man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager?

Mr. GREGORY. I believe I read the name in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or
any other place?

Mr. GREGORY. Never heard of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be
Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or
anything else?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about
Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile?

Mr. GREGORY. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if
we ever went anywhere, I drove.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a
simple statement?

Mr. GREGORY. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he
said, "Yes."

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you ask him that?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery
store or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive a car?

Mr. GREGORY. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about
it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he
rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of
him driving a car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. Very.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at
that time?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television
when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And
later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I
felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in
because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be
a likely person, but I did not think he had done it.

The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service
talked to me and said the evidence looked----

Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and
said it looked like he was the one. And my--I more or less reoriented
my thinking that he was the one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you
remember?

Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Nielsen?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's
alleged guilt?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he just said something that, I think something came
over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then
he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or
something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't
remember the exact words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was
a member during the time you knew him?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he
belonged?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he
associated?

Mr. GREGORY. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then
the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. GREGORY. I think I heard my father mention the name De
Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do not know him personally, however?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. If there is anything that
you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it.

If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I
haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the
record now.

Mr. GREGORY. No; I think you have covered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to
thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman
to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very
much.



TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE

The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Helen Leslie of 4209 Hanover Street, Fort
Worth, Tex.

Mrs. LESLIE. Not Fort Worth--Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please?

Mrs. LESLIE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about
to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member
of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was
created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission
to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald
Kennedy.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, I know what it is.

Mr. JENNER. And all the circumstances surrounding it.

Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the
commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the
United States, is chairman.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to
you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to
inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that
assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had
any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife,
Marina Oswald.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking
here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to
assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein
and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking
your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us.

Mrs. LESLIE. I will be glad to--as much as I can.

Mr. JENNER. You just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen
to you.

Mrs. LESLIE. I don't think I know very much; actually it is very little.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you appear voluntarily.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes. Now, you want to know if I met the man and his wife?

Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can take it by easy steps, if you will let me.

Mrs. Leslie, you live in Dallas?

Mrs. LESLIE. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I
was born, how I came here?

Mr. JENNER. All right, do that, will you?

Mrs. LESLIE. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This
year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years
ago.

Mr. JENNER. 2 years ago?

Mrs. LESLIE. In 1960--it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband
died in 1947, whom I married--I married in 1923, so I am a widow about
17 years.

Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but
my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife,
asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live
together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I
settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and
where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret--there was not a real
Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which
certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a
Russian church on Newton Street.

Mr. JENNER. On what street?

Mrs. LESLIE. On Newton Street.

Mr. JENNER. Is that St. Nicholas?

Mrs. LESLIE. No, St. Seraphim.

Mr. JENNER. The sermon is preached in English, is it not, at St.
Seraphim?

Mrs. LESLIE. In English--Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way,
Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came
there to christen the daughter June, I heard.

Now, I was introduced to a few Russian people here.

Mr. JENNER. When you came here?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and
she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She
is a ballerina--a dancer. She met here many people--mostly connected
with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's
Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs.
Ford.

Mr. JENNER. To Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mrs. LESLIE. Declan Ford and then to the Mellers.

Mr. JENNER. The Mellers, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some
Russians in Fort Worth--those Fort Worth Russians--the Clarks.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark--Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?

Mrs. LESLIE. Those are all the Russians which I knew here.

Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in
1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there
was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am
interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in
Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them
and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet
Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother
since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but
I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them,
because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George
Bouhe's apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the
12th of June 1962.

Mrs. LESLIE. 1962--so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which
year it was--it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him--I
just have seen them once.

Mr. JENNER. This was a meeting at George Bouhe's house?

Mrs. LESLIE. At George Bouhe's house--where he lives--I could be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. Was it during the daytime or the evening?

Mrs. LESLIE. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't
know exactly--I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some
entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this
couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Who was there in addition to yourself and Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. LESLIE. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for
dinner, so I presume it was something--3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we
were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place
for dinner.

Mr. JENNER. And who was present on that occasion?

Mrs. LESLIE. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I
tell you--when I was introduced to Oswald--I didn't catch his name, his
last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't
impress me very much.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--he didn't impress me, you know, but the only
thing--the only one thing impressed me--he was talking quite fluently
Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in
very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there,
but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian
language, but sometimes he was--he didn't use grammar things or
something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some
mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar.

Mr. JENNER. What about Marina?

Mrs. LESLIE. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying--they
have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a
pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I
think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy
and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will
tell you--this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to
help everybody he can. So, he was born also in--Petrograd, before the
Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard
she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this
couple. He wanted to help them.

Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and
she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard
even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of
Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now--so many new
words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice
Russian language and that's all I remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak good grammatically?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a
different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because
she knew all terms, the Latin terms--something that not many people
know, because she was educated in this field.

Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby,
you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby
it was. It wasn't the second baby then.

Then, I never met them--sometimes I was getting calls--how was this
Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work
for him--he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too
little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them
financially.

Mr. JENNER. Bouhe solicited money from you and others?

Mrs. LESLIE. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a
quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or
anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money
and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they
are and so on.

Mr. JENNER. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that
you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing
extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a
man like George Bouhe?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet
with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is
a temperate man, a little bit--he can tell you--insult you sometimes
without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years,
so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of
the finest things which happens.

When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of
my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian
costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in
an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he
wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted
to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was
pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then--she was very
pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took
her photograph in the costume and when I was 5 years old, I sold this
photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I
forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston
with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting
Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and
it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a
portrait of my mother.

It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years
out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was
a very rare case.

I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find
it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years
finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe,
I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition,
maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more.
He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't
have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he
says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for
$60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care
only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20."
And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this
book--or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?"

There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how
can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book
and I will show you. I cannot tell you."

And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks
and so forth?'

I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you
call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I
have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I
found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my
job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank
him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can
show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know
you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which
one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not
interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force
myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you
know, so since that--it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of
it.

After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at
Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He
says he doesn't want me to know him--he doesn't want to know me, so I
do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and
that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since--since this case, but
I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology.
I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and
when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know,
duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's
the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with
Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say,
"Hello, how are you," and that's all.

Mr. JENNER. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act
toward each other on the occasion when you saw them?

Mrs. LESLIE. I will tell you something--I don't know if Bouhe told you
or others too. When she was out at a place--she had a black eye and she
has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a
question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I
hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a
light, the door was open and I hit it--the kitchen door."

And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he
was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was
sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was
Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a
Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife--this
is not proper--to beat his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, we don't approve of that in America.

Mrs. LESLIE. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and
like Fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out
in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little
blanket--she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she
said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English
and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do
and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house
and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I
don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took
her--I think, you know, that she was staying with them.

I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I
lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I
didn't see her until when she was on television.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to ask you about a certain George De
Mohrenschildt.

Mrs. LESLIE. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my
daughter's and he is in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know that.

Mrs. LESLIE. And he was patronizing Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of fellow was George De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. LESLIE. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have
pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting
her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter--Nattialie Krassooska
of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima
ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going
together, swimming together, and I don't know where--that's why she
invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when
I came, he already married this Jeanne.

Mr. JENNER. Jeanne?

Mrs. LESLIE. She's Russian--I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or
Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name
is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know,
a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South
America or somewhere, you know, they walked.

Mr. JENNER. From the Mexican border down to Panama?

Mrs. LESLIE. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were
the arrangements he made--with some Life Magazine, or something,
but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make
geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens
like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very
much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she
sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a
letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife,
Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he
was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then,
occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then
once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they
were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will
tell you something--that what many people were afraid of, his wife is
atheist. She doesn't believe in God.

Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes--his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my
daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing
in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist
too, you know, so I don't know--maybe he always is under the influence
of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't
know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says,
"Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about
him.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and
his attitude?

Mrs. LESLIE. You know, after this trip, they are very--they don't like
to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks,
dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a
little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect
them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was
saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or
I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and
there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't know what kind of
people--whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I
cannot tell.

I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so
that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts.

Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't
either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with--and I
don't know who knows them best, but I think--whether the Mellers do or
not--I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in
these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they
was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew
he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably
she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you
know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is
so hard to leave from there--his wife and child, why they let them out.

Mr. DAVIS. Did this occur to you?

Mrs. LESLIE. It has occurred to everybody--how--he was so poor and
Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time
he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans--he was
taking these trips--who supplied him with money--nobody knows. You
know, that's a thought everybody was thinking--how he went there and
how--it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions.

Mr. JENNER. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers
and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of
good heartedness?

Mrs. LESLIE. I hope so--I think so--I hope so. Mostly, you know, I
cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I
don't know--he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. On the Baltic Sea?

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural
that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and
not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their
place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I
know--they was meeting them--somebody told that the FBI was looking for
De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I
think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this
is over. Probably he will come back into the United States.

Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes--I wanted to tell this--so, when this
naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy
was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was
Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot
and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume
that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald,
and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her;
you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know
his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything,
and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met
them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a
friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did
you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his
name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name."

They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And
they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said,
"Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more
closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize
him, because when you are not expecting--I didn't know his last name
and such a common face he has, and such a--you couldn't remember his
face very closely--it is just one person you can recognize him, and
that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so
bad; I shaked his hand--I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked
his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the
President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to
touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I
am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen her since the occasion you met her?

Mrs. LESLIE. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford.
It was correct that they was helping her because she received so much
from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and
they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything
and they was investing it or something--I don't know the situation, but
she is now--they asked her--as Russian--to watch over her. I don't know
what she does--I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to
my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to--I don't know,
but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to--I don't
know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in,
I know, at an inconvenience to you.

Mrs. LESLIE. But if I can help with something I want to.

Mr. JENNER. You were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much.

Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it,
you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer
to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; you will mail it to me?

Mr. JENNER. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S.
attorney's office, he will have it.

Mrs. LESLIE. I have to write his name.

Mr. JENNER. And he will know when your transcript is ready.

Mrs. LESLIE. He will call me on the telephone?

Mr. JENNER. You had better call him because there are so many
witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and
read it and sign it.

Mrs. LESLIE. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told
it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide
anything.

Mr. DAVIS. That's the name and the phone number.

Mrs. LESLIE. Sir, I will call him and ask him--what I have to ask--is
my deposition ready?

Mr. JENNER. If the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read?

Mrs. LESLIE. To read--all right; thank you.

Mr. JENNER. You give him your name and he will tell you.

Mr. DAVIS. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may
be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant
attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be
the one you could reach and she would be at this same number.

Mrs. LESLIE. All right; I will do it.

Mr. DAVIS. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank
you so much, Mrs. Leslie.

Mrs. LESLIE. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m., on
April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition
you are about to give?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received
letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have
you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one.

Mr. JENNER. One joint letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter.

Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint
Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of
the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon
Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and
appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and
obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by
the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and
by deposition.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission?

Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the
Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to
the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.

In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr.
Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and
the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John
F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that
assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the
Commission relevant to its obligations.

In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for
some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of
deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of
their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina
Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of
our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt
befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with
them.

As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people
who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the
facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that
are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.

I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may
not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of
course, than any one witness would know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me
quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President
Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren
committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me,
being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international
assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract
may be broken.

So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he
said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.

Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now,
this is unofficial--one of the ministers informed me of that--in which
this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I
am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.

Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter.

Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a
letter he received from someone.

Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that?

Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure
it could not have been anything official.

I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the
Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter
and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it,
personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary
admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do
anything like that, you know.

Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be
somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication
from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non
grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or
that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non
grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there
in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is
important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000,
and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with
it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first
came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there.
It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the
country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally
got that contract about in March last year.

So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also
to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me
to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant,
just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this
respect, because it is really very important to me.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American
geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I
have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is
not a fly-by-night project, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about
it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning.
You were born in 1911?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April
4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the
calendar.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in
calendar.

Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here.

Mr. JENNER. And what date by----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th.

Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr.

Mr. JENNER. What country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland
rather than Russia. Would you explain this?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never
lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is
that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian
descent.

Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may
I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your
grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and
received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time,
or maybe your family.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name
is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the
spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a
Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a
typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in
any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States,
you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they
probably changed it to S-c-h-i-l-d-t. And it can also be written in
Russian, at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the
Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk
Province.

Mr. JENNER. He was what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected
representative of the landowners to the Government.

Mr. JENNER. Of what country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and
spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes
Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in
Russia.

Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe
five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well.

Mr. JENNER. Spanish?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish.

Mr. JENNER. French?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it.

Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they
speak French there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French.

Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was----

Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying
to make this informal. I want you to relax.

May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned,
I will tend to inquire into these things.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what
I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am,
international business----

Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation
have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because
when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of
anything. I am very outspoken.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that you are, from witnesses I have
interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those
reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my
business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be
the circumstances of death.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an
important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he
had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was----

Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean
nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the
persecution of Jews.

Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some
elements of oppression of the Czarist government.

Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional
government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member
of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.

Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago.

Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who
is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I
should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as
you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And
it will be printed as part of the report.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the
future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what
I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I
vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the
Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an
independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility
position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older
brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't
remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there--in
the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.

Mr. JENNER. And that came when?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon?

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were
returned to Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow,
one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters
of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so
sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.

Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St.
Petersburg and Moscow?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me
such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very
difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a
story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a
memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed
it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to
change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little
bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many
years, because I did write it down.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was
governor--not governor, but marshal of nobility of.

Mr. JENNER. What province is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where
Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his
experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very
well.

Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the
Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad,
and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.

Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I
don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied
by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I
don't remember which one---there was famine there. So we escaped.

Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the
time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my
brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.

Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course.

He is about 12 years older than you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11.

Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly,
more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house,
or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived
there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists
eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make
it short.

Mr. JENNER. Please--that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But
I want times. About when was your father put in jail?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime.

Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the
first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember
very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first
time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were
fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released
my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we
always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who
always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists,
because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway
Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to
escape from Soviet Russia.

The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland
again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated
and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide
whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father
decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression
that they have changed.

Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have
become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some
kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember
which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because
he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what
was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one,
also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of
the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this
appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture--I don't remember
what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain
number of months--although there was a famine there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then
one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show
you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing
museums in churches. And my father objected to that.

Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by
principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected
to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too
much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started
criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more
distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia.
And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.

Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution.
This was a revolutionary period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now.

Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living
somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He
is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life
imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far
as I remember the name of it.

And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever
they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government
do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was,
"Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence--just
because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against
him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very
sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped
previously----

Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't
remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised
my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick,
and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the
position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was
not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be
sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that
he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of
times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved,
and he was able to be sent to Siberia.

And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is
where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped
him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border,
in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.

Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno.

Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died
from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had
this typhoid fever.

Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And this was what year?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922.

Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von
Mohrenschildt at this particular time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French
orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like
the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we
used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States,
interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite
some time, and died here----

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give
his full name.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt
was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in
Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist
Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married
McAdoo's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post.

Is she still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona.

Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced.
She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he
died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But
supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of
the Baltic nobility.

Mr. JENNER. Through what source?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of
Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his
perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no.

Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to
many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in
the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you
perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that
of record.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons,
in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to
use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.

Mr. JENNER. Which one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and
your brother Dimitri?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium,
which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high
school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that
is where our home was.

Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back
our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.

Mr. JENNER. In Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist
Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through
the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this
estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the
border.

Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among
themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe
5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.

Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take
it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to
sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the
peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate,
probably jointly.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call
the gymnasium, in 1929.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years sf age?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father
during this period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to--I did not like the country
very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly
feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like
home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission
to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission
because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the
Polish Army.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the
cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it
was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility
displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it
because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible
for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a
reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the
same position or division in the Polish Army?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people
there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German
aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some
exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated,
not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training,
and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform,
you have to have your own horse.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land
from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about
my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then
became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was
always--always liked to teach.

Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his
profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience
as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a
professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.

Mr. JENNER. That is the high school?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the
immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number
of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or
1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different
school.

Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in
which he was teaching?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's--not
supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland,
by the way--did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university
in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee
school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish
school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.

Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you
have a command?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important,
because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted
schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who
graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military
service?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate
officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned
officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military
academy.

Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be
commissioned a second lieutenant?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely
a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a
commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives
you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and
pursue that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was
free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur
de Commerce a Anvers.

Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher
commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of
higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you,
from time to time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go
with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that
twice. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very
hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what
it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a
candidate officer.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the
contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.

Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get
it on the record here--your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you,
he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he
was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start
very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you
would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial
Navy, became a midshipman.

Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol,
which is the headquarters there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.

Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as
March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at
Dartmouth and Yale.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a
midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from
Annapolis here.

Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in
the navy, all the time--even when you are 12 years old, you are a
member of the navy. It is not like here.

Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period
of fighting.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist
groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in
a town called Smolensk.

Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the
time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in
a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at
liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.

My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they
told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say
one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.

Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him
against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist
prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners
of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my
father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic
bishop in Poland.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my
brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined
us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the
United States.

Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on
the 20th of August 1920.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us.

Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate
year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just
before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join
the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was
appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But
we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still
in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He
had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval
academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly
better than high school here.

Mr. JENNER. Junior college?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher
commercial studies in Antwerp?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree,
probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there.
You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in
maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you received----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there.

Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher
learning in Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon.

Mr. JENNER. And you received a----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and
commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration.
It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a
specialization in maritime transportation.

Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master
of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's
degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. No; you entered----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years.

Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was that degree?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce.

Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of
the United States on Latin America.

Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in
Latin America?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are
about----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938.

Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now,----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me
from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was
studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.

Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady
by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.

Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with
Edward Hooker, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she
not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some
place. She lives between New York and Paris.

Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during
this period?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were
pursuing your studies at two universities?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a
girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd.

Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski
clothes, and that sort of thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through
Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000,
from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an
excellent saleswoman.

Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation
in the estate you had?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me
to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand
dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but
at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I
really don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much
as $10,000.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this
business, Sigurd.

Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend,
decided to come to the States.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced
me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came
to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a
mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us,
between my ex-girl friend and myself.

Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938.

Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain
yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought
some money with me--something like $10,000, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately?

Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully,
if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started
selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some
materials for Shumaker and Company.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. 750?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the
summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.

Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also
her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a
divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends.
We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little
girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also
very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.

Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we
still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally
correspond.

Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials
in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my
blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which
is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and
confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company.
I arrived in Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there--because that skips
some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that?

Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination.
I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an
insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that
examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which
was--this is about 1941.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for
Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939.

Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and
wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.

Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what
actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a
very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret
Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in
Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.

I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's
aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New
Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans,
but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I
applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil
Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through
mutual acquaintances.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.

Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning
machinery.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well
paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at
the time.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for
the record.

You are 6'1", are you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to
ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I
went to Arizona.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do
is get your personality into the record, because many people have
described your personality.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably.

Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised
the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would
be surprised.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.

Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to
get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble
Oil Co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the
Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I
know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to
play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to
get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason
I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember
what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is
after my experience with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you
call it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.

Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months.

Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery
in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was
badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And,
frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself.
I do not remember. Maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. But
I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the
company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the
oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and
education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me
the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean--drill
wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well.

Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so
early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of
business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."

Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could
do it without capital.

Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did
you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic
dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried
insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this
insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's,
Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of
money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it
was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then--yes, then comes the
draft time in the U.S. Army.

Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft,
and they found I have high blood pressure.

Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you.

Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in
1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish
Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I
did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas
experience with the Humble Oil Co.

Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was
just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was
there--I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe
it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.

And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I
never arrived in Poland.

I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late
to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably
wouldn't be alive today.

Mr. JENNER. You have some----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say,
I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it
is not my intention.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You
are calling on your own recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call
it, tenuous connection with some movie business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went
into.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1941?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron
Maydell.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person.

Mr. JENNER. In what sense?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him
pro-Nazi.

Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a
German spy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer
in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything
through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back
to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White
Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had
been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and
so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him.
And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary
movies.

Mr. JENNER. Documentary?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film
Facts Incorporated.

Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the
Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over
the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection,
because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite
a number of people here. I remember most of them--by Grace, who is
president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we
could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This
is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made
in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by
Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell
had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for
the benefit of the Polish refugees.

Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small
amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually
a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make
some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.

So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to
be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it
together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very
moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success.
I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or
something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.

The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think
they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in
the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their
own purpose.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will
Never Die." It was an assembly job.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music
together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did
not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York
to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it
all together.

Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great
grandfather.

Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania,
later went to Russia, entered the oil business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that.

Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family
some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the
Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron
Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in
it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name
of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went
back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on
his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and
inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the
American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that,
being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you
call it--a descendant----

Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a
member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about
that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the
lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in
Vintage Wine, Inc.

Mr. JENNER. On a commission?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and
Company.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French
intelligence in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in
1941.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in
pro-German activity, and----

Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you
see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that
it was French intelligence.

Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and
tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for
the French interests.

Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the
United States were not at war yet at the time.

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system
whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil
by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some
contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we
met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose
names now I have forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think
it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.

Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and
daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.

Mr. JENNER. Had you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States
got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they
could not buy oil here anyhow.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000--I thought it was $10,000,
frankly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom?

Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs.
Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your
recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr.
Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me?
Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come
back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical
doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York.
Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in
Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.

Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy
Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls,
the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people
accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people,
you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--Lilia
Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was
a divorcee.

Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a
husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.

Mr. JENNER. Guasco?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well,
anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell
in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United
States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my
experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond
comprehension.

Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't
have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could
laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend
following false trails.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are
following them.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they
followed.

But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for
awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from
Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.

Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach.

On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by
some characters.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach
enjoying the sunshine.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did?

Mr. JENNER. Did you make--take some photographs when you were in
Aransas Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other.

Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas
Pass?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way,
I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the
coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the
Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one
to tell me about that.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have,
which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors,
and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down
at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an
outing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay
of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.

Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was
then at war.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military
installations around Aransas Pass.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with
this lady friend of yours?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of
the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are
a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is
my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I
thought they were from some comedy actors.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have
the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed
me all the way from New York--all the way from New York.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched
your car?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing,
except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.

Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady,
very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to
the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't
forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That
I do not recall exactly.

Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint
officially.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially.

Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was
stolen.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they
expelled me from Mexico.

Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a
statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico
City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except
painting and going around with Lilia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some
money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and
the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that
outfit, because it was going to--the stock was going to go up, which I
did. I made some nice money out of that investment.

Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9
months with this lady?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on
Avenue De--the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name.
Paseo de la reforma.

Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some
difficulty in Mexico, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army.

Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away
from me. We were going to get married.

Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think
by the time she got to Mexico--she already got a Mexican divorce. I am
sure she did. She was already free.

Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question
about whether it was good in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she
was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We
thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and
had me thrown out of the country.

Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some
accusation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really?

Mr. JENNER. I am asking you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non
grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as
I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why
am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done
anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back
to the States.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some
Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of
those Mexicans who tried to help me.

Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your attorney?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a
good friend of mine.

Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to
leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of
Mexico."

Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other
friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike.
And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You
could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there
at the time was a young MacArthur boy.

Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright.
He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips
together. The son of John MacArthur.

Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By train?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I
don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a
chair car. But, believe me, they are very often----

Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started
to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that.

Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think.

Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest
in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and
then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then?

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became
your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the
daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an
Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother
and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was
the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an
American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I
fell in love with each other and got married.

Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young.

Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York.

Mr. JENNER. In New York City?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City.

Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later.

Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born.

Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce
took place--well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never
married her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to
marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back
to Mexico.

Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in
Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She had two sons?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys.

Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorothy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the
16th of June 1943?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are
very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some
place.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas
Day, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1943?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York
City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed
book?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did
you do some painting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file
of paintings in Mexico.

Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.

Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were
original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have
some.

Mr. JENNER. They are water colors?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military
installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican
types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make
a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old
Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went
together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple
of days with no roads, and finally one evening----

Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time.

Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the
middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we
walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We
left the car right there.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him
again; and I hope to see him.

Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still
interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various
directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and
study geology and petroleum engineering.

Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice
Institute, and University of Texas.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in
that neighborhood?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you
not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see--bohemian and trying to make a
buck, as you might call it.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I
actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did
not have--which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself,
as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete
mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did.
It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are
very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well.
And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances,
and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved.
And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided
to go----

Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that
a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have
the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept
on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was
wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone
in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he
was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice--of all my
friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try
to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the
basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote
some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what
happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who
are very wealthy.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas----

Mr. JENNER. 1944.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan.

Mr. JENNER. You entered----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of
Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum
geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort
and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum
geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.

Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my
studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in
American schools.

Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you
serve as an instructor----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In French.

Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some
additional money.

Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of
Texas--all of your studies?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the
University of Texas, did you enter into business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the
Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer.

Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But
eventually fought with the vice president.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with
the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual
agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president,
and a close friend, that I should resign and also----

Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back
to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I
would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you
see.

It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated
in Venezuela.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in
Venezuela?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish
passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.

Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed
a very short time, and went to Texas again.

Mr. JENNER. What town?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to
be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying
to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States.
And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the
chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.

Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is
he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak.

Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two
of you assisting the chairman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I
was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group
of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones
actually working for the committee. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting
organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in
Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky
Mountains. It still is.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not
in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But
he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the
Standard Oil of California.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who is he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from
California who sold oil well pumps.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the
various oil companies?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field,
is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering
data for the entire field?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to
various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body
in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each
well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was
our main job, you know.

Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in
that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut
down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond
drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became
very, very successful.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3-1/2
years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did
you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very
pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness
of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild.
But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to
Colorado--without being married.

Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.

But I didn't know him.

Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful
girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we
fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine
an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the
record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a
wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to
Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time.
She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.

And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last
boomtown in America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States.
We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud.
It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.

Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to
Aspen, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little
cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends.
But then I became chairman.

Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant
president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the
president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.

Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time. I would say--I didn't
take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.

But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.

Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field.

Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the
weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my
time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we
decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee.
They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.

Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to
break it up, didn't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over
at Aspen, and not being----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly.

Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it
I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got
together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George,
we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the
Engineering Committee."

I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.

Mr. JENNER. And this was about when?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are
interested in my character--is that it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating
oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it
was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United
States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.

Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the
end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the
statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I
don't think I ever had any complaint against me.

Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field
was being developed.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a
statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen,
and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion,
and your employers questioned it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example,
attitude with respect to keeping expenses?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small
there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned
me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But
I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget,
more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did
you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. The date is not clear to me.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this may refresh your recollection.

Had you become an American citizen in the meantime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was that on the 11th of July 1949 at Denver?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Denver, Colo.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your employment with the Rangely Oil Field Committee
terminated after you became a citizen, did it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection--it occurred about
6 months later?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When your employment in the Rangely Oil Field Committee
terminated, what did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I realized that I could not remain married
to Phyllis, because she was a girl of--who needed money, who needed a
good way of life, needed luxury--she was used to luxury. And I asked
her to go back to her parents, to New York, and that I will try to make
a success out of--I decided to go on my own as a consultant--that I
should try to make a success out of the consulting business.

But I just should do it by myself, without her being present. And so I
moved to Denver, Colo., gave up that establishment in Aspen, and got
some help from my friends, and with very little money I started my own
consulting firm.

Mr. JENNER. In Denver?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in Denver.

Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, did the--was the marriage to Phyllis
Washington terminated?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; either in the meantime or just right at that
time.

Mr. JENNER. Was that by her suit?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; by my suit.

Mr. JENNER. You filed the suit?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you file that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the court in Denver. She was gone. I returned
in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to New York City?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to see if we could patch up things. We
became very good friends with the other side of her family, the
Wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of
mine. Bill Wasserman is a banker in New York, used to be ambassador
to Australia during the Roosevelt administration, I think--or to New
Zealand.

And, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of
her--because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in Europe, they had
also their own difficulties.

Mr. JENNER. Their own marital difficulties?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they decided we better forget about this
marriage. We remained very fond of each other. But we finally came to
an agreement to have a divorce. And I filed a suit for divorce.

Mr. JENNER. When was that decree entered?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that I do not remember.

Mr. JENNER. When did you get your divorce decree from Phyllis
Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In a court in Denver, Colo., but I do not recall
the date.

Mr. JENNER. 1949 or 1950?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something around that.

Mr. JENNER. Were any children born of that marriage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No children. We were married in Grand Junction,
Colo. And the divorce was entered--the reason was desertion, which was
actually true, because she did not come back to me. She stayed in New
York, or eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an
alcoholic--poor girl.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary
consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil
company in Denver.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his
office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to
start on your own.

But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing
evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this
will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night
I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself,
by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am
just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil
business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing,
which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my ex-nephew,
Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had
visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had
done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.

I said, "Eddie, how about it?"

He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time.

And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch."

Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner
and Beane."

We formed a limited partnership together.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so--1950.

Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. About 2 years?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a
pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the
drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.

Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you the field work?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York,
a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver.

Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second
well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver,
because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and
they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first
venture--suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because
Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in
Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your
field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that
correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in
Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we
paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short,
our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally
split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy.
He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to
make millions.

My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and
eventually build up some production.

On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought
the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another
company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a
well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead
of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if
they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual
story.

I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to
find something less risky.

He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was
true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.

Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite
a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was
the center of the small size independent operators at the time.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I
married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.

Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the
next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED


The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. On the record.

Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back
a minute to your father.

You left there about 1931 or 1932?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times.

Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular
reference to World War II?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went
to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to
the United States at the time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this
was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to
America, and he did not take advantage of it.

Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you
know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too
old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the
German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he
happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into
hiding.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the
Russians invaded Poland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other
side?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of
the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence
of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and
the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made
an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin
could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to
a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.

Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they they are willing to
go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German
Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of
Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an
enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those
Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the
other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to
Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with
the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life----

Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist----exceedingly
strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the
sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany
and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we
know--some air raid hit that place where he lived.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old
castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going
to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the
time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go
and see the place where he was buried.

Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters
through some German friends who stayed there with him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he
had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him
during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before
Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said,
"George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war,
but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free
and nobody is bothering me."

It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some
positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too
clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not
pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we
went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in
1952--because I was not married--we still had the partnership. I was
visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him
I met my next wife, my last wife.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples.

Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school
at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That
was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29
years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see.
And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia,
Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and
also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many
years.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end
of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely
Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.

So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and
so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should
marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all
right--obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me.
Butler was my best man at the wedding.

Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler.

There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember
who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of
ushers. So we got married.

Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy.

Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested
in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is
interested----

Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi.

Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her
with that nickname--Didi.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her
graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.

Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to
Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to
live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to
take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident
physician----

Mr. JENNER. In what hospital?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. Baylor University?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in
Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor
Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very
often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my
partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity
between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.

Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion.
And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from
such a prominent family.

Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me,
"George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts."

She had had nervous breakdowns.

Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is
very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous
breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is
interesting for you, all those details.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she
came to Dallas with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an
apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm
outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei,
and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very
difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.

Mr. JENNER. When were those children born?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference--in 1953 and 1954.

Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose,
you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social
problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife.
He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such
unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership
and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it
out and divided the proceeds.

Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the
oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was
staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to
Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity,
according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much
better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center
of things than just in a small hick town, you see.

Mr. JENNER. You----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking
this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from
Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by
the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we
formed a partnership just about the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's
uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle--much younger than his--than her mother,
but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed
friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to
form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with
the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do
the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the
business in Philadelphia.

We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling
venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some
time.

Mr. JENNER. What field?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field
belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in
the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.

But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide
any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small
things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together.

Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced----

Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were
divorced?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We
were married for 5 years.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our
children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic
nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.

Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for
Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary
chairman.

Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this
foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did,
because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It
started with very little--we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now
it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last
year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public
subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and
we got $25,000.

Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960.

By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever
disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that
we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic
affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a
marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children.
She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little
girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is
in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia,
she is a trustee of Temple University.

But her husband, Dr. Denton----

Mr. JENNER. She remarried?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried.

Mr. JENNER. What is his full name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated
our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of
pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of
Pennsylvania.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some
litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with
respect to some trust?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund.

Mr. JENNER. Established for whom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had
to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support
of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund.
She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children,
because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to
accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side
to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far
away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered
constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the
children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a
long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my
ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund.

Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son.

Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr.
Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the
children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was
a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between
my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in
regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.

Mr. JENNER. No--I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives
in Philadelphia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more
or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She
was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national
foundation.

She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked
to resign, or resigned herself--I don't know for sure--the other
trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to
resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends
another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think
which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the
administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she
is running this foundation as an administrator.

Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of
difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live
with me, you see.

Mr. JENNER. The daughter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living
in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just
the opposite--that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of
the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation
last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of
various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier
with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a
tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we
went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the
middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as
they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the
condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I
get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is
also under psychiatric treatment.

Mr. JENNER. Who is?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric
treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for
the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters,
because they are healthy, and she is not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some
children born of her present marriage?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife
filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. She commenced it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get
a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The
lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell
our house and settle our accounts.

Mr. JENNER. Property?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair
for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story
about that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did
you remain in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting
work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the
foreign end of this business.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In
1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals
connected with Sinclair Oil Company.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We
were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.

Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking
more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr.
Sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for
him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some
oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign
jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in
connection with those.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign
work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion
of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was
in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France--I may have forgotten
with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some
work right there in Dallas--examined the geological work and made
suggestions.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually----

Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba--I traveled in Cuba before Castro,
during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed
the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to
promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost
owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the
Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over,
and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his
office--that type of job that I had from time to time.

Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana----

Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.

Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you
were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and
development for what group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan
Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co.
in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I
may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all
consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from Texas or from New
York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well
known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to
a job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the
Yugoslav Government.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in
Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia
and help them develop oil resources under the--I don't know--some kind
of government deal. Under this----

Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--George Mitchell.

Mr. JENNER. And his wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist.
In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did
pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for
somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found
George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.

Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married.

Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C.

The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA
paid my salary.

Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere
around February of 1957, wasn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8
months, and I returned in October.

Mr. JENNER. 1957?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made--quite a
considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them
went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went
to the Bureau of Mines here.

Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked
me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because
I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I
noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking
me--after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me.
One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well,
George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he
is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."

Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that
correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in
Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia
for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas
firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I.
Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a
couple of weeks.

Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a
divorce.

Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh
Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this
separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living
at the Stoneleigh Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.

Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you
about that.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was
Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told
me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry
her. A very charming fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before
you were married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because
we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We
both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we
wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I
remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are
married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it
in the name of----

Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former
husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.

Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the
States they used the name of Le Gon.

Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name
is Jeanne, is it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the
Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for
awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We
took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually,
her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter
came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your
daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in
Arizona, because her mother----

Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy
Tilton III. Anyway----

Mr. JENNER. She lives where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson,
Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up
and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her
husband, Mr. Clark.

Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left
her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European
way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my
daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We
call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin,
it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent
practically all her childhood there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there,
as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt
her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one?

Mr. JENNER. To the adoption?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that
adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived
away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the
daughter.

I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually
both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra
because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person
to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away
from her. We had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a
custody case.

Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took
Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us.
And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided
that she should be with us.

Mr. JENNER. When was this?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with
the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my
ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel.
Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a
television producer.

Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom
our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not
married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not
married. I could not offer her a home--although I wanted her to be with
me.

And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."

And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I
contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a
half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.

That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.

Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. After you were married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some
time.

And, finally, she eloped from school----

Mr. JENNER. From what school?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of
Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.

Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee
Taylor.

Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody.

Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a
divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information,
is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.

Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out
what is happening to the child.

Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs.
Taylor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less,
takes care of the little boy right now.

Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study----

Mr. JENNER. What school is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the
situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get
occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere
in New York right now.

Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch
with her right now.

The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a
hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as
some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.

Mr. JENNER. How old is she now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now.

Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then.

While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present
wife's daughter.

What is her name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as
my wife's.

Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor.

My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous
admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name
after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but
that is beside the point.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name----

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to
Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to
pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.

Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana
Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it.

Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton.

Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California,
from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't
know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft
Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of
Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To
make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also
he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.

Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.

Mr. JENNER. What is----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department.

Mr. JENNER. In Alaska?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to
make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and
they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond
of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their
name, and that was by mutual agreement.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband,
Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married,
they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le
Gon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they
decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed
their name to Le Gon.

I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying
that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known
designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.

Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I
was not particularly----

Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian
background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in
China, and she was born in China and lived there.

Mr. JENNER. Harbin?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She
came to the United States the same year I did.

Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New
York, and didn't know each other--right next door.

Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the
present time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her
husband.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And January 1964?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in
Alaska?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in
Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place--in
both places.

Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children.

Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests?

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more
about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is
of ultra conservative tendencies politically.

Mr. JENNER. Please explain that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100
percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And----

Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether
he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have
Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration
for him.

I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect
votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.

Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife,
Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in
April 1956?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date
clearly in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a
drinker?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much.

Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of
all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything,
a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close
to it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many
times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I
have drunk more than I should.

Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960.

Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at
dates.

But I think it is 1960.

Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at.
That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair,
that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout
all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and
to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would
review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of
mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we
did it.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted
myself.

At this point, tell me your political philosophies.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I
voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics.

Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat,
because I believe in freedom.

Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom
of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of
criticizing something which I think is not democratic.

Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a
Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if
somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with
fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I
got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics
very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that
subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.

If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his
business.

Mr. JENNER. Have you----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some
good characteristics in communism.

Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that
view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this
country, that there are some good qualities in communism.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your
concept of communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from
the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and
works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation
it may be a solution.

Mr. JENNER. A temporary one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes--which eventually, and I
believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in
certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way
of life.

Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I
would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like
business to be free. But----

Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to
persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development,
you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development
communism is not good?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and
Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which
expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.

It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which
says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich
countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for
ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies--could
exist eventually.

But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the
poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United
States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia,
Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are
producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop
the tools to produce industrial goods.

While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in
the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on.
You see what I mean?

Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti,
which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than
they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?

Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries,
or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So
that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.

Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy
is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual
freedom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my
life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without
it.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in
Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was
attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor
Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example
of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of
democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that
the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the
President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made
an impression on them. A few examples like that.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates
with the Communists?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk
to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people
active politically--they were not big shots.

With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you
can discuss.

Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any
side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in
favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to
communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who
does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world
attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean?
A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in
free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me,
"George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are
not for freedom."

Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites
are not for freedom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike
it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left
with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.

For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in
my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe
in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an
international force?"

I said, "No."

He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and
sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have
insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred
against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live.

Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it
yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no.

Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection
with the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I
developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to
use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.

Mr. JENNER. What workers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very
inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using
American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who,
among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita,
Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately.
So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote
the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be
a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture,
using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic
countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.

And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility
of forming such a venture.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia
for the International----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958.

Mr. JENNER. Were you then married?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates.
Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to
Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not,
in the summer?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married
at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can
correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy
with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.

Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I
expressed my point of view pretty well.

Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All right.

John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract
for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav
labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic
countries--especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point.
But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send
Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all
the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And
they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not
use American equipment?

I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that
type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see
the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia
when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And
I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable
in Washington?"

And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."

It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian
venture--form a corporation.

I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in
the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.

I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said,
"George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do
business with those damned Communists."

So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of
that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany
and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.

Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably,
or 1959.

Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman.
The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I
have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and
Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all
over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And
this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they
practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the
stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African
countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is
Ghana.

And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found
out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana,
indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And
eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still
are supposed to have it, this concession.

Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a
philatelist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Explain that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the
philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to
Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.

Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De
Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway,
because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I
went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went
as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business
you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr.
Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all
those countries, as far as concessions go.

Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp.
have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political
with a capital P.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with
Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only
affiliation they have with him.

Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects
whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have
explained?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business.

Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International
Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had
no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business.

Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool
Corp., that was strictly business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. No politics involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.

Mr. JENNER. Representing----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never.

Mr. JENNER. Any government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times.

Mr. JENNER. Any government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I could take what you call the fifth
amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.

Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time
you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you
feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel
uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been
an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government,
except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish
Army--$5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian
Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.

Mr. JENNER. Subject to that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it.

Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign
government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at
any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital
P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or
a government or even a group against a government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of
any political group.

Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather
colorful life have been your personal views?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests,
with a capital P, on behalf of any group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like
in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the
discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I
say what I think.

Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any
kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in
anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian
venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in
Europe, traveled around Europe.

We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you
came here in May of 1938.

I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you
started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into
Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your
own words, how it came about, and what you did.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it
is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick
MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we
were both young men in Mexico.

And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country
mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and
useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of
the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the
Conquistadors.

You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines,
and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are
all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I
started collecting through the years--I started collecting information
on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.

But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the
time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of
my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all
that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away
from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to
follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central
America, and possibly all the way to South America.

And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical
therapy for your mental problems.

And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me
that that is something we should do.

We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the
ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.

Mr. JENNER. What ranch?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a
friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the
Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little
town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.

There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name
is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half
Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.

By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them,
a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their
house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance
call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close
friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to
take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in
the outdoor life.

And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200
kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very
difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way
to the Panama Canal.

Mr. JENNER. All the way to where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the
longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole
of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica,
and Panama.

And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our
mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of
the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to
nature for a whole year.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico
City.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that
is interesting. This is completely a different incident.

I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf
of----

Mr. JENNER. Just a minute.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job.

Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year.

Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961.

Mr. JENNER. November, I believe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other
occasion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes.

Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as
well complete it. Tell us about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas
Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract
with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words,
this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.

Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in
jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is
the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big
Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs,
asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and
try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in
Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.

Mr. JENNER. You say "we."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me.

Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear
you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960--one or the
other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this
particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you
call it, was this particular----

Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is
the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos
of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with
Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.

By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some
financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican
Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through
my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I
knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any
particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering,
and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the
most interesting jobs I ever had.

And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were
technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the
night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George,
why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"

I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to
meet the character."

He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to
learn something from him.

So I said, "All right, I will go with you."

And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people
at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very
peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern
people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public
with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.

Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she
says, "I better go instead of you."

Mr. JENNER. Your wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the
Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for
the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a
Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.

It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the
Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that
mess.

Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After
that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will
introduce you to Mikoyan."

And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you,
Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because
it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that
security officers without being detected--because she was right there
in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she
says, "I am from Texas."

"What do you mean from Texas?"

She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and
visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."

And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see
you."

So here was the Mikoyan incident.

Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan
incident?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business
reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy
buddy with Mikoyan.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the
Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of
Pigs invasion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything
about it.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it--except I remember we
arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street,
we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have
to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with
us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We
did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.

Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with
us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time.
That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around
the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and
to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white
boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.

And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."

The consulate--we received our mail through the American consulate.

Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not
Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through
the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul
there--could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry
my shotgun there.

He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."

And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the
road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central
American countries?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our
way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.

Mr. JENNER. Samples of what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to
have----

Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff
we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry
150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written.
It is a manuscript I have--600 pages--day for day description of
our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The
publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a
publisher in France, and they may publish it.

Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more
color it might be salable.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by
day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will
make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of
our trip, day by day.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to
record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I
had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever
been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever
visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked
many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here
with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends
in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about
1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting
to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of
our trip.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only
what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to
civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big
cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how
we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They
thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed.
All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top
of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people
that we had money with us--we did carry money with us.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At
the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S.
Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa
Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles
written about our trip in the local papers.

Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central
America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a
desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of
my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.

Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested
at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help
seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war
in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.

But I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to
Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of
territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not
many people can do it, you know.

Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired,
and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many
times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived
in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going
to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to
be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry
in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I
discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went
as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost
like his son.

We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died
very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing,
taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian
Government at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then.

Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in
which you are now engaged?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the
first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the
Minister of Finance--that they are interested in my project, which the
project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have
anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working
and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the
contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that
contract.

Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business.

Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have.

Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups
are you a member?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is
something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not
a member--I am not interested. I am too busy.

Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is a group.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them
political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum
Club political?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum
Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be,
because I don't live there any more.

I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think
my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.

I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.

I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a
registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.

Purely professional organizations.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you
have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member
of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the
American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even
knew it existed.

You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not
interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics,
except when I want to improve something in our way of life.

Mr. JENNER. In our own way.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing.
But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization,
because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.

Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in
improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on
your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to
Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch
very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the
Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in
Washington when I want to have something done about something.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you land?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship
directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.

Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles.

And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to
Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of
Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and
Jim Savage, engineer.

Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment
in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to
live--6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our
trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife
started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all
the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time
I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing
consulting work, in Dallas.

Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those
dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.

So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.

Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head
at the moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large
manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with
me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip
with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her
profession of designer.

So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she
started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in
Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you
do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you
use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in
Dallas at or along about that time.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife
and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This
is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same
type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia
with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.

Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to
the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.

One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is
Ilya Mamantov.

I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.

He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society
group, because he works for a large company.

Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people.
Voshinin. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to
her.

Mr. JENNER. The Clarks?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali.

Mr. JENNER. Gali is of Russian derivation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper
society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families
better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.

Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background,
who is a lawyer, as you know.

Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you
don't pronounce correctly her name.

Mr. JENNER. That may well be.

Paul Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in
business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and
years.

Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said
it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.

You are acquainted with her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly.

Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people
forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort
Worth, Irving area.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs.
Thomas Ray.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Which one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the
advertising business.

Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is their history?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is----

Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American.

Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or
brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she
speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of
Russian parentage.

Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think
I know it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the
son.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them.

Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have
named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the
Russian community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others.

Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the
Oswalds.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the
Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians.
And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of
Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows
the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the
Russian priest.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox
priest there.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri.

Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek
Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor
of Spanish at SMU.

Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina.

Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or
sects or groups, in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek
Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not
tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely
Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The
one that Father Dimitri is the head of--he is an American and quite a
large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services
are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also.

Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are
segregated into two groups.

Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us
call it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other
group.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does.

Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into
Dallas, through these church groups?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time--I don't know what your
propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when
you were in Dallas, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to
the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in,
the old guard church.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I
got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa
now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to
South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.

Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during
the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not
call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized
religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group
there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is
amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a
little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as I said, to
sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church,
if that is the answer.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to
convert people--constantly they push to convert people. But I go
occasionally--on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to
see the group, because I like many of those people.

Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you
have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest
or belief in communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Communists are----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to
stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church
is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the
schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe
one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox
denomination.

Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know
for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with
others?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand
for a year to be in the jungle.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say,
Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient
person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.

Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in
your social habits.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they
mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people.

Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's
reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their
boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.

Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative
questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.

Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so.

Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a
little more serious-minded?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It certainly has been suggested.

Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't
believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as
well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds,
what kind of a community it was.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand.

Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it,
and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of
which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw
a good deal of them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It
is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of
Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly
in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25
families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a
very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with
a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along
very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that.

I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than
coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own
words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to
the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962--without involving them
now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided
by classes. You see what I mean?

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes
there.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and
a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a
question of money as a question of good education, and of background.
And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course,
comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an
excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom
we were very close.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is----

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil.

Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had
many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business.

Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people
in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I
know his wife better.

Mr. JENNER. Is his wife also a Russian emigre?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and
Armenian, extraction.

Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him
through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina,
another one who lived there--Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.

Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of
the ballerina.

Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really
hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there
are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the
Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the
old palaces from the czarist days.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am
glad that you made such a distinction there.

Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to
believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian
wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some
connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian
wife out of Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might
believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils
that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do
something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever
know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one.

Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most
leftest of them all.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not.
But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country,
because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had
visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland,
as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there
for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there,
and then returned back to the States.

Mr. JENNER. This was after----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us
assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right
now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally
happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the
community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there
was a Russian couple?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally.

Mr. JENNER. Curious?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious.

Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious
would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first
in Dallas--he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he
is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to
convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.

Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become
acquainted throughout the community?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia,
from the Soviet Union, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They
would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards
they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them
would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is
a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't
there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I
will put it this way: When did you first hear----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time----

Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey
Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a
close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there
is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them
already--Max Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read
about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the
exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper,
maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time.

Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American
who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet
Union?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything
about them before.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when
this conversation took place.

Mr. JENNER. When did it take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the
summer of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe
said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them--I
don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.

Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about
them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent
family--supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet
Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George
Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an
ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted
your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember
that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a
woman she is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was
pretty?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because--but it is
nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.

Mr. JENNER. You have----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better
looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt.
You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally.

Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But
anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who
were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet
Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women
like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory.

Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit
vague on that.

I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we
met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so
many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure
how I first met them.

Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who
gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George
Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali
Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.

And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire
poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.

I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend,
Colonel Orlov.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a
Russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from
Russia.

And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in
Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two
of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door,
and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.

Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5
o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov.

Mr. JENNER. She answered the door.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we
are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a
little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think
he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her
especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not
particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing
one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby,
horrible surroundings.

Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that
she knew substantially no English?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew
maybe--I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the
store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and
'no'." That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I
remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little
shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very
poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not
paved.

Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how
she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like
that--completely meaningless conversation.

And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand
what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your
husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to
sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry
or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.

And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little
while, Oswald, Lee appeared.

Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared.

Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before.

Mr. JENNER. And he came in?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in.

Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I
want to see how you are getting along."

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to
Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign
accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable
fluency in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and
education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the
language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than
English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the
first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that
he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in
Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of
Minsk. He got me curious, you know.

But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him
or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was
a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there,
and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see
you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she
needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not
been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.

Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given
to the child?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly
side?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head,
bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an
undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby
looked like Khrushchev.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the
story in your own words.

Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we
drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that
couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also
struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time--your
first impression.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression
remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had
a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something
charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the
guy--that is all.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble--with me he was
very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed,
absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was
just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think
he liked me very much.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said.

Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the
relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple--that they
were not getting along, right away.

Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there.
You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the
couple--that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was
not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving
husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and
so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in
talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.

Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with
him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially
when you asked something about him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main
characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in
Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.

Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and
he would do the talking.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when
we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him,
and Marina away from him later--you know that?

Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself,
did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things
develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know,
from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very
often.

Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very
often. Maybe you didn't.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I
do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife
went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that
any more--to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought
her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take
her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw
Marina. Maybe a few days later.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the
Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with
them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived
somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my
daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And
since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older,
but about the same age--I don't remember how it happened, but either I
or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very
vague in my mind, what happened there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George
Bouhe brought Marina to your home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some
dental care?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic.

Mr. JENNER. That is located where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the
Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the
man who founded it.

Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental
care gratis, or almost for nothing.

George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way.

Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either
for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything.

Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time
losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at
the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was
working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.

Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company
was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that
was his version. Maybe he was fired.

Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact?

Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical
care?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina
where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such
injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She
didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She
is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother.
Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And
what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia,
did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.

Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or
the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life
as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers.
That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind--you see what I
mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it
any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not
treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when
she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember
what her father's profession was.

One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government
official, something like that--colonel or something like that. That I
remember she told me.

And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and
graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river,
which I also remember, in Minsk--the River Svisloch, which crosses the
whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and
in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments,
and that is where the foreigners lived.

She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that.
And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met--I
remember they met at some dance--I think he was ill, something like
that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is
something I have a vague recollection of--that she took care of him,
and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she
said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she
desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in
that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream.

It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of
apartments rather than of people.

She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as
things go on.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him--I was
trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what
are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary
you get, what amusements you get.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of
$60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost
all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost
nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was
rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous.
Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between
them all the time--always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina
always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the
prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he
liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had
a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people
were interested in him, you see. That very often--he worked in a TV
factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the
United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was
that type of an individual who needed attention.

Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than
he did--as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It
was a livable way of life.

Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there
than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what
happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think
that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was
getting more and more things from people--people like the Clarks, like
ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so
on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.

Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses.

When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded
with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in
Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I
remember. She had a baby carriage.

I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things
like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say you carried her out and took her to the
Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we
met them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did
you do it?

That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George
Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an
introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there.
And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I
don't remember the name of the person who was there--some Texas lady
whom George Bouhe knew.

And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even
spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is
probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to
Mr. Ballen's office--he has a reproduction business, a very large one
in Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Reproduction?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service.
When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they
print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large
business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in
Denver, Colorado.

I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember
that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting.

I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee
Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting
fellow."

Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same
time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of
it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and
the baby?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already
moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall
who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary
Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both
drove to Fort Worth.

I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no
car, they have no money--help them to move."

I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for
a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this
address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He
had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember
that.

Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them.

Mr. JENNER. When was this?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. September of 1962?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time--about September.

A little before that, I think, because in September we started the
campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of
them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that
this campaign started.

Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis,
they had already moved to Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had
moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had
returned back to her husband.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away
from her husband. Tell us how that occurred.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime. George Bouhe became completely
disgusted with Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because--I don't know exactly why--because he
liked Marina very much.

Mr. JENNER. Bouhe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe--he is an elderly man.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To
him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed
help. And he really gave her money. He would give her $30, $40, I
think, all at once.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe
50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in
very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I
gave her even 50 cents.

Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the
house.

Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the
house to eat.

Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away?

Mr. JENNER. And why.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe started telling me that
"George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was
crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."

And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And
Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on.

George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak
Cliff, because I didn't move them--it was my daughter who moved them, I
think.

So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor,
and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee,
"Listen, you cannot do things like this."

Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am
not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a
little later.

Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you
observed that she had a black eye?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so
forth.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it
was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been
beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."

So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you."

And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him."

Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, there has to be something.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know.

I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away
from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it
happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had
them in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do
things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the
few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.

And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This
is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do
that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.

Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's
place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to
take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take
her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous
arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe
I called them. I don't remember exactly.

Anyway, they were ready to receive her.

And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her
dresses and I will break all the baby things."

And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining
to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love
your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some
time, you better behave."

I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police."

I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other
people's affairs, after all.

Well, he said, "I will get even with you."

I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I
said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."

So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things
out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was
small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.

After a little while he helped me to carry the things out. He
completely changed his mind.

Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to
carry things. And we cleaned that house completely.

We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded--everything was taken
out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other
part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days
later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and
said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina
is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous
character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening
Marina on the telephone."

Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George
Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to
know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this
time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know
where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where
Marina is.

Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our
apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the
Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is
to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the
telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was
very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the
fellow to do.

I repeat again--I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And
this is--if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take
my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am
surprised that he didn't do something worse.

I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a
dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else.

Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now--Marina moved
to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her,
and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house--the name you
mentioned here before--a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas
something.

Mr. JENNER. Ray?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall
that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs.
Ford to the house of the Rays.

What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house.

Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had
already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am
not 100 percent sure.

I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little
bit later.

Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were
having?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her?

The difficulties were this: She was--just incompatibility. They were
annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had
many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the
time--"Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why
don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well,
and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the
time. Poor guy was going out of his mind.

Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor
guy, he is doing his best. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I
mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her
physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just
once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather
crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative
strangers, as we were.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on
the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the
discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and
on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She--they
were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that
impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was
Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the
United States.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not
recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me
that--that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him
go to the--back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport.
And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally
took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was
not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that
illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United
States Embassy.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you
that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to
the United States, and had taken some steps to do so?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that.

Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell
you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him
to do so?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time
also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new
fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him.
And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing
again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back
to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear
to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly
interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to
leave. That I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not
interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question.



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on
April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr.
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


(Having been previously duly sworn.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then
recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandra,
then Mrs. Gary Taylor.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with
them, but never lived with them, as far as I know.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection,
Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything
to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had
to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to
Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one
day. But I could not swear to that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another
respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962,
"My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with
me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained
that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in
Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told
me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the
YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression
that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying
that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that
on my daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your
daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe
they did not. I just do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my
mind--completely--after the last time we saw them.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot
the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind.

Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them.

May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we
met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max
Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is
safe for us to help Oswald?"

Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to
Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right
there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved,
you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that
he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was
in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security
at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe
or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You
never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant.
But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were
alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am
not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to
have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on
behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia--G. Walter
Moore. He is a Government man--either FBI or Central Intelligence. A
very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was
some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI
in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government
man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my
stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there.
And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time
to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, because I think
he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to
our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting
person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident
occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Which book?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one--the travelogue. One day we left
for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages,
some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip
and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched,
supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1"
after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages,
No. 3, and so on and so forth.

I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She
said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for
a while.

In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of
a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in
my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took
photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just
could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went
to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us.
Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you
know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you
consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we
haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody
who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I
possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who
it was. And it is still a mystery to me.

So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter
Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My
recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of
them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with
him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so
forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of
your lives, you see. This is one point.

The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in
Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they
represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently,
and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As
I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The
others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor
Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't
you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina
Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for
not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise
that question. But why didn't they want to meet them?

Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did
not want to meet them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew
something about Oswald, of some connection.

Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any
chances.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that.

Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with
them.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were
just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so
secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of
meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience
and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you
have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater
or lesser degree with a great variety of people.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether
Oswald was an agent of anybody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am
I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you
concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you
why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too
outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were
an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea.

Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very
freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They
explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of
a man.

Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this
reasoning of yours.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all.

Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was
a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously.
All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was
rather sincere.

Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were
shallow and surface?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.

Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under
scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views
on the subject?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly
poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand
even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and
just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to
display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to
impress one.

Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used
them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh
at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had,
for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping
for something.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of
reliability--that is, whether our Government would entrust him with
something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of
imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under
pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would
be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.

Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual,
mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What
government would give him any confidential work? No government would.
Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type.

Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on
that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, unstability--his life is an example of
his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another,
and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that,
tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of
adventure--like some other people would do in the United States, a new
job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome
deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was
discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is,
assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his
jobs.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion
on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth,
and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my
life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for
him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the
Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need
a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier.

Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea.

Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it
would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a
career in the Marines.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked
it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his
jobs, you see, but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at
them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to
evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as
to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was
reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack
of control of himself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took
his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and
his threats to his wife.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the hell out of her. I
think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to
my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually
precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that?
Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But
now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her,
that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that
is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor
woman.

Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak
Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building.

Mr. JENNER. Mercedes?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street.

Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes.

Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this
man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation
or situation.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason
that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He
would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and
a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend
people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And
he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is
just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that a moment. It gradually
developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their
curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at
the outset.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest
in him waned?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear.

Mr. JENNER. What was the fear?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual,
like George Bouhe--he was actually physically afraid of him.

Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid
of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said,
"Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are."

Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built,
athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally,
but George Bouhe was.

Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your
personality as I observe you testifying.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark
naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an
athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him,
and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him.

Mr. JENNER. Who was rude?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his
wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they
invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said,
"Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer
of that type.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too
much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man.

Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively
uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service
record. What was your reaction to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was
Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while.

Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was
in Marina and not in Lee Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly
important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would
take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself.

Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other
gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention
might be drawn to him and away from her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not----

Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to
think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember
any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an
egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but
I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any
particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina
would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for
Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you
about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did
you regard that as unusual?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told
Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate,
and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are
going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child
and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it."
We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and
her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English,
and they obviously still have those records.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap
phonograph, to play the records.

Mr. JENNER. You gave them records?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records.

Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not----

Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that
my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do.
But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee
would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if
he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people
gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see--she
would take anything from 5¢ up to anything. And the more the better.
But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude.
That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was
not a beggar, not a sponger.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him
developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the
Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a
greater or lesser degree?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part.
It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could
not succeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did
you acquire this feeling?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human
nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You
see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks,
because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house
that the Clarks have--very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so
forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a
refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that,
like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new
convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just
to say so. But you can feel that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him
unintentionally with that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe--my impression
of him is that he is a direct man.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina
away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from
Oswald. That is a fact.

Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away
from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take
Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with
George Bouhe--to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make
another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my
child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am
fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a
future.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina
acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English
because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I
do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember
distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife
learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part."

Mr. JENNER. Very selfish.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in
the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that
is that she would return to Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think
that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the
United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you
never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion.
Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of
1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any
discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the
Russian Embassy to return to Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that.

Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly
unaware of it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that,
never heard of that. What we learned, at that period--that she had her
child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong
objections.

Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina
doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child
christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me
that.

Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to
Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to
make application to the Russian Embassy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in
that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where
he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know
whether he had a liking or not.

Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like
human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way
of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but
my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice
to the poor--as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost,
penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show
it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean.

Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable
attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to
think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or
not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr.
Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking terms.

Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very
fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a
little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to
something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup--trying to do
something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you
like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he
said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea.
To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I
laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And
it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he
was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point
of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived
when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility.
And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area. I was
interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find
in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of
conversation went on sometimes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things
in which you were interested in the community, the countryside?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic
he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly
with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking.
He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest
which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought
a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about
the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because
these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not
too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after
the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political
meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for
an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a
thing I thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points
that is really hateful in a Communist country--the meetings after
work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the
engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting
after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And
I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks
that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he
hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated.

Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew
there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some
of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United
States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as
a political ideal and his reactions to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist.
I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And
he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that,
because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just
the sound of that word is boring to me.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to
whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and
what he thought Communism was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but
knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was
not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.

Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute
nothing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except
for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary
remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes
to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.

Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he
was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think,
the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he
called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible
than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch
for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had
some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got
him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you
can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we
lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the
Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from
my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met
some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and
that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what
goes on there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his
meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his
youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had
some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of
thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could
understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in
the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive,
they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to
form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.

Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men
and women who have come from poverty?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald
because he knew it all.

Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly
that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we
did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After
we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the
situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent
their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned.
The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina
afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because
we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which Marina was.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any
place. That was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at
Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another
time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the
whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was
dying of boredom there.

Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was
that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's
Eve.

Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of
days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was
still going strong.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of
days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of
one day and did not end until well into the next day.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was
a very friendly, very good party.

Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no
intimation of that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--on the contrary, they are very hospitable
people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is
why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there,
so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing
that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse--his resentment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question.
She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could
lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade
her to smoke. This is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so
bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap
her.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away
from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial
way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he
would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our
presence--when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke
nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked
to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal
person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.

Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very
little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I
remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was
tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy
was always under some kind of pressure.

Mr. JENNER. You have that impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure.

Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure.

Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that
party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second
one as well in a moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs.
Thomas Ray?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as
he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian
origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford.

Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know,
in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came
from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely
different type of individual--the new blood. They were younger and they
were brought up in Soviet Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--displaced
persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany,
and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of
them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different
background.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's
Day.

Mr. JENNER. And it was at the Declan Fords?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. and Mrs. Meller?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so, too. And a lot of other people.

Mr. JENNER. There is another Ray couple, Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. C. E. Harris?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall them.

Mr. JENNER. Charles E. Harris?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man
with grayish hair.

Mr. JENNER. From Georgetown, Tex.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tall man with grayish hair.

Mr. JENNER. His wife was Russian born.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know them well. I probably would
recognize them if I saw them.

Mr. JENNER. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party
who had a very lavish house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish
house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the
party.

Mr. JENNER. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the
party adjourned to the Jackson's house.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had already left.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall. They were there.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only
once--I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I
do not recall him.

Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the person I could not identify. I don't
know who she is.

Mr. JENNER. Also present, Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think I remember her.

Mr. JENNER. A single person, divorced.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think I remember her.

Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, slender, short.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember her. She was married to
some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet
Russia--Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to
ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared.

Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk's husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very
nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and
that she left him. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You brought the Oswalds to the party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Having asked previously either myself or my
wife--having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because
they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored
to death. And she said yes.

Mr. JENNER. And after a while you folks left, around midnight?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you take the Oswalds with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we did. And this is the reason
why--because I think they left the child in our house while they came
to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady,
Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which
she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald drink at that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall. I know I drank quite a few
glasses.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to how the people at the
party reacted to Marina and to Oswald--take them separately.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their
own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by
bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was
an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl,
Yaeko--I don't remember her last name--but I already had given that
impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that.
She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at
Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some
people in the cotton business to take care of their babies.

Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker.
She eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and
became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas
by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the
party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest
in each other--Oswald and Yaeko. They just went on sight and started
talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable
because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so
overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told
us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number,
she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or
twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald
is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again.
But----

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is not hearsay that Marina told you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something
on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in
which people----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko
incident, because she knows a little bit better.

Mr. JENNER. I will make a note of that so I can talk to her about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always
happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter
who they are.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members
at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to
them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people
to talk to.

Mr. JENNER. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there
ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when
they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were
afraid he might be an agent of some kind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a question I have to try to think a little
bit about.

I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the
people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that
told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I
thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists
are scared--not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to
talk to foreigners.

We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian
exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there
in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect,
a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she
disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us.
She was scared of us. That is the usual thing.

So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were
scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable.

Mr. JENNER. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly
affecting his desire to return to the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. The most important answer I
think I got from Oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him
and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet
Russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you
leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not
not find what I was looking for."

Mr. JENNER. And did you ask him what he was looking for?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for--Utopia.
And that does not exist any place.

Mr. JENNER. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in
this world.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He could not find it in the States, he could not
find it any place.

Mr. JENNER. He could find it only in him.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false
image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we
knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible
murderer of the President of the United States, he must have been
unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what paranoia is?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know it very well.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I am interested in medicine.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization,
of course, now that you are thinking back.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia,
which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not
give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before
this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of
that nature?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know anything about his background, you
see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that
he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that
he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him.

Mr. JENNER. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with
him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself,
superficial?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very superficial, because I was not--I know
that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in
New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low
category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type
of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he
mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started
going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself.
That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the
Marxist books"--that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by
myself. I started studying it all by myself."

Mr. JENNER. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did
not understand them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not understand them. I would not bother
reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they
contain.

Mr. JENNER. But you could read them with a critical mind, could you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that
is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very
difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that
they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring.

Mr. JENNER. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had
said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you
overhear any of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed
that notion to you, that he might go back?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to
my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a
better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go
back to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this was really something said in despair.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More or less--"After all, what is my life in
Russia"--I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually
better than here. But Marina never said that.

Mr. JENNER. She didn't?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember some people at that party by the name
of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional
geologist for Continental Oil Co.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at that party about the
possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard that.

Mr. JENNER. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was
broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not
permit one of its agents to be that penniless?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an intelligent estimation, but I
certainly have not heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Any discussion there or speculation that there was
something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little
trouble in getting Marina out of Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had trouble getting her out?

Mr. JENNER. Relatively little.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a question that always was sort of a
big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them.
But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible
for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the
country. But I have known of other examples of it being done.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the
Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember
anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't notice it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever note whether he was right or left handed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely I remember that he might be
left handed but I could not recall.

Mr. JENNER. This is pure vagueness on your part?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very. My wife may recall that.

Mr. JENNER. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the
other on it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia
with respect to hunting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.

Mr. JENNER. No discussions?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have
weapons when he was in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in
weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter,
I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested.
I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in
shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any
impression.

Mr. JENNER. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover
that fully in the record.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That incident is very clear in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. This was in 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them.

Mr. JENNER. It was the last time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them.

Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime.

Mr. JENNER. In April?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In April. It was in the second apartment that
they had.

Mr. JENNER. That was on Neely Street?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On Neely I think one block from the previous
place they used to live.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a
rabbit for Oswald's baby."

Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter
Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after,
but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date
exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked
up--I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the
door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed
you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we
have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know.
We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while
Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which
I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Mr. Reporter, Jeanne is spelled J-e-a-n-n-e.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the
window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are
you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All
of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look,
George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed
it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still
standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun,
and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight
on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And
Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So
frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas,
you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like
target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are
you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled
to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General
Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I
knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance
and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face,
you know.

He sort of shriveled, you see, when I asked this question.

Mr. JENNER. He became tense?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer
anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a
peculiar face.

Mr. JENNER. The expression on his face?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, changed the expression on his face.

Mr. JENNER. You saw that your remark to him----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had an effect on him.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not
say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember
after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large
bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us
the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you came to their home----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist
on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main
thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that
question before.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for
integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting
him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights
as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very
strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on
that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I
do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends,
you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try
to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such
that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know
what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is
another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe
is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned
from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I
had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly
his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on
that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that
that was one of the reasons.

And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very
sincere.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident,
the Walker incident.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you
opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.

Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire
rifle incident?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could
I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have
said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing
there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just
as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very
distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"

The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning?
I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But
if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that
he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.

Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for
General Walker?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some
conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period
of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.

Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your
testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the
Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know
a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.

Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about
the weapon thereafter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation,
the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence
after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not
believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my
part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid.
But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid,
bad sense of humor, she says, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says
that I like to tease people.

Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and
I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is
perfectly all right if somebody teases me.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian
Club?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and
the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back
from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was
a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little
bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas
you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should
do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting
people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And
also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good
eating." And that is how the idea originated.

Mr. JENNER. And you called it what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit
based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided
to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions,
and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that
the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the
dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he
should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I
guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings,
very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was
that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very
important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.

Mr. JENNER. On the subject.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject.

Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or
presented in a provocative fashion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus
there, some very provocative discussions.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home
or restaurant that you supplied the meal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech
that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White
Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against
Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet
General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the
Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he
was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large
group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided
me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I
think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson
who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German
concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov
soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.

Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse?

Mr. JENNER. Did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody?

Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember
that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused
me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He
accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my
opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their
opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see.
Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they
were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was
all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident
because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and
I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that
occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how
to drive and I was quite surprised----

Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to
drive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him
"Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an
automobile?" I remember saying.

Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30,
some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't
know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina
was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling
him.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were
present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so
vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I
might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have
put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas
without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely
isolated where they were living, you see.

Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it.

Mr. JENNER. Because of that.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife.

Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect
to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual
person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly
complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time
that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see
we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting,
such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as
we were, see.

Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first
period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we
knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and
I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of
them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about
sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in
them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I
mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him
that disgusted us.

We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more
about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.

Mr. JENNER. Except for this party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came
and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is
Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were
completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out,
and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again
to meet Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that
we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's.
No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one
afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing
them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a
retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife
are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.

Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her
that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring
them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we
brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you
know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away
from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he
immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see,
and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think
he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine
Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So
it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral
left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a
while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.

Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think
Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs.
Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to
my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to
that Christmas party did you enter their home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we
got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a
Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of
celebration but I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he
did or didn't believe in Christmas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not.
Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to
your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw
them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and
12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.

Usually they were together.

Mr. JENNER. She come alone?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his
coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.

Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause
before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and
stayed all day?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or
4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection
of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really
my mind was on something else, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to
the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning,
and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by
bus."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better.
Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing
business, my business you know.

Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and
sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you
see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along?
Goodbye."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that
better than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree,
testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came
for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as
cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my
wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in
charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is
possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the
doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that.
I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.

Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you
weren't around.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife
will remember that, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember
the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because
they were hungry.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that
they were fed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with
respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember
distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the
brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that
it was----

Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and
it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a
little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy
you see. She wouldn't help anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with
anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby
you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you
know, around the house.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I
have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he
didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little
he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was
not discussed you know.

He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he
disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina
disliked the mother.

Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any
exact words, but that is the impression I had.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they
had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met
the mother and had a reaction to her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I
assumed that you knew.

Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will
remember more than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect
to his brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with
his brother.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that
there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly
inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President
Nixon?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted
to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am
concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that.

Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some
discussions with him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once
I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you
know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very
attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought
that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial
problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed
with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young,
full of energy, full of good ideas."

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He
did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald
hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is
something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very
poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him
sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you
can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it
doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found
that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few
poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor
Connally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not
familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. That is another subject.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never
discussed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the
assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable
discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.

Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the
subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I
was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this
dishonorable discharge or not.

Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know,
and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a
dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to.

Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia
Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party
at his home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met
them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly.

Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection?

Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At your home several times?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It could be?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she
was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with
Lee Oswald?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even
this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with
Everett Glover, this couple.

Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't
you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think
he declined that.

Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now he says it was on February 23, 19----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February;
at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who else was there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett
Glover's whose names I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer
Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology
who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.

Mr. JENNER. Magnolia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory.

Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.

Mr. JENNER. He was present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor.

Mr. JENNER. And who else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who
lived right next door to us, to that party.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is her first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox.

Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a
different party, but I have the impression that she was there.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also.

Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I
forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth
Paine.

Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was
engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in
some sort of classical music singing.

Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in
Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent
some time singing in the madrigal.

Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody
who was present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if
you mention the names I will say yes or no.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.

Mr. JENNER. Alex?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.

Mr. JENNER. That is her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband.

You see, we showed our movie quite a few times.

Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night.

Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't
identify them.

Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned
to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she
would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my
recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the
Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not
recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our
trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not
interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.

Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor
Oswald were interested.

Mr. JENNER. Neither one?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would
appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people,
not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At
least that was my impression.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in
Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was
quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many
answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be
asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he
definitely was the center of attention that night.

Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian,
weren't there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine,
and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship
developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward;
you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as
far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw
her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and
attractive person.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald
attending that party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't
remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian
at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.

Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia,
who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate
at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you
think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you
leave before the party was over?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly
have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe,
Everett brought them.

Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have.

Mr. JENNER. It was not your party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to
their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in
particular the former government in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on,
you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very
intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world,
and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it
was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in
front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to
Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement
or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak
Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an
achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned
the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise
for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well
for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I
understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.

Mr. JENNER. That is all.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing.

Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a
conversational command of the language.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian.

Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina
would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between
them or something?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There
was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially
on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the
time.

But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked
and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not
approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let
her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail
what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante
of Marina's, you see. I was not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a
woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup,
in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to
correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you
see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to
learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you
see.

Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had
confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a
woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know.
She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him.
And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was
fighting also. She would scratch him also.

Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time?

I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection,
rather than mine.

There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Without being taken?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred.

Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we
were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.

I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to
see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware,
somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.

Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a
friend of mine.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish
extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he
worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex
Kleinlerer. That is the name.

Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I
think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.

Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I
drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't
remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It
was a friendly visit to say how are you.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this
was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which
you took Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking
about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken
her to the Mellers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to
the Mellers.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to
why Marina was there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to
Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.

Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that
Marina should leave their place.

Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming
back or something like that, something to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory
I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is
history for me, you see.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in
your mind also.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs.
Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about.

Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a
broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it.
So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what
happened.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion
with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any
religious feeling?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember
because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious
beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have
some sort of religious belief.

Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a
straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any
organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly
against religion as far as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any
impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do
not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like
that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty
and freedom of the press?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of
the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to
understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free
speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the
great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in
individual freedoms.

Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages
you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to
appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian
refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't
appreciate it. Not all of them.

Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life
in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you
see, to discuss politics.

Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as
far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy
lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."

This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very
intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as
you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.

Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to
read that he had written.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time,
but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day
by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through
these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were,
and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for
publication.

Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was
nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was
just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly
written, not particularly well.

Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember
too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.

Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission
Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if
it has the material he showed you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.

Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks
familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It
does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he
showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235:

"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you
see. Again another sentence I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you want me to glance through that? It does
not look like the same document.

Mr. JENNER. If it is not the same document----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think it is the same document.

Mr. JENNER. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301.
This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia,"
with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.

I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description
of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop,"
"Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives,"
"Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout
of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective
Farms and Schools, Vacations."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I
remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have
attracted my attention.

Mr. JENNER. All right, let's find that spot.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your
attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part
to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the
Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.

Mr. JENNER. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar,
starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going
to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is
something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.

Mr. JENNER. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you
had with him before his life in Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That looks familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. This whole division?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This whole division looks familiar to me. As
I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this
document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar
to me.

I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication.
You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this
and comrade that, you see?

But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions
of life of a worker.

Mr. JENNER. It is horrible grammar.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Horrible grammar.

Mr. JENNER. And horrible spelling.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But it could be reworked by somebody?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Let's get to the next division here.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something that I remember we discussed.

Mr. JENNER. You are now at page 262.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think here he talks about those meetings.

Mr. JENNER. That he did not like?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he did not like.

Do I have to read that? Frankly, it is very----

Mr. JENNER. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is
the paper he showed you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Here is something.

Mr. JENNER. I now direct your attention to page 269.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is something that is much more familiar to
me because I was interested in the town itself.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction
of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its
builders."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was something that interested me
because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some
of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to
this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just
described them. What happened to this street and that street?

He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings,
you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses,
you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same
paper I saw.

Mr. JENNER. But this seems to you more familiar?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention
to the city than I paid to something else.

Mr. JENNER. This is quite a long diatribe.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It couldn't be the same document because that
wasn't as long as that.

Mr. JENNER. It was not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled
compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have
already identified, the first of which is at page 304.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is definitely not familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. And runs through page 309.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look
familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.

Mr. JENNER. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page
312. It is a short one.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It does not look familiar to me. As I said
before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only
about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his
life.

Mr. JENNER. Were they typewritten or in longhand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typewritten.

Mr. JENNER. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance
through those, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen
before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.

Mr. JENNER. And you had not seen it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not
the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not
political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the
TV factory.

Mr. JENNER. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tell
her----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That she is ready for action?

Mr. JENNER. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I
have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be
closer.

If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or
find out where she is going to be.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m.


Mr. JENNER. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was
that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam
Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen
says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or
January 1963 at your home.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be.

Mr. JENNER. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife
and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out
socially.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You did do that, did you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens
to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because
they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.

I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just
refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have
anything to do with them."

Mr. JENNER. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your
home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or
might be helpful in his obtaining a job.

Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned
yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963--that is,
the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--it should be probably at that time,
because--I had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he
was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still
have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help
them, you see.

I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't
know that.

All this is later, after we had already gone.

So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems
to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds,
when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to
Dallas--that was the time.

Mr. JENNER. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but
it was some welding outfit.

Mr. JENNER. Sheetmetal work.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords,
in November?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When she stayed at the Fords?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the time when we took Marina and the
child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the
Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.

And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved
from one place to another--three times, as far as I remember, she
changed domiciles.

And finally returned to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you
took Marina from the home?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As having occurred----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In September.

I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a
recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day--very
sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we
started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were
very busy.

But it might have been in October.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her
home--she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be that.

Mr. JENNER. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her
husband?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I
think she was only once at her home. There were three homes--once at
Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in
succession.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she
made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you
took her?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that is the occasion we took her--we
took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that
we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to
another, I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. You have a recollection there were two periods--one period
that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then
another period when she left the home, herself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That could be, very easily. But then it would
fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second
time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were
busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at
the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and
didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.

October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October,
November, December.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to
whether she was at that February 1963 party?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name
MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I
remember her.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls
when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee,
and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like
your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."

And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over
to Anna Meller's house with the baby.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it.

Mr. JENNER. She was there a week.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there
for the second time, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all
the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded.
You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in
Haiti today.

We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load
and unload and carry them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, she voiced the opinion that--she said Lee liked you.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did.

Mr. JENNER. She said because you were a strong person. She is
expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all
this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very--a
person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I
am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of
the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I don't know what the reason was.

But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in
the Russian colony.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe
he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian
blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an
internationalist, American.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe you are.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he
had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not
say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me,
with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on
in his head.

But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that may well be.

But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the
only one who remained our friend."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said we were the only ones----

Mr. JENNER. Who remained their friends--the others sort of removed
themselves.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends,
nothing. We just were too busy to be with them--period.

Mr. JENNER. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other
people now.

As you related this morning, they began to withdraw.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them--we
withdrew also to an extent--you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them
at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them
again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.

Then we saw them the last time for Easter.

I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I appreciate that.

What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who, Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always
quite hospitable.

Mr. JENNER. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About the others, I don't know, because I never
saw anybody else there in the house.

I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by
kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an impression among the people in this--we have
talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them
because--well, let me put it this way.

He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice
versa.

But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved
in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of
them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia--while my wife has
never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left
it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.

I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the
impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools
for having left Russia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that.

Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any view to you or did you get the
impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked
money, and everything was measured by money?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but
you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of
them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making
scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"

But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him.

Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You were interested--you asked me if I belonged
to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees
called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas
belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being
interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is
a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine
of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet
Union for them, and all that sort of thing.

It is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is
in Germany.

That is about all I know about them.

Mr. JENNER. But that group didn't interest you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; nor any other group.

Mr. JENNER. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on
your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I belonged to that group--I don't remember
during what period--and came quite often to the meetings.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite
a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings,
where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the
Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But
I never noticed anything in particular.

Mr. JENNER. Were there people of substance that participated in that
group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president
of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.

Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group.
Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they
invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists--I don't
remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody
in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I might have said that.

Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That he had read and created some sort of a
theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.

In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine.

Mr. JENNER. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he
had--not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up
a doctrine in his head.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that
Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said
that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the
United States.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds
around to their house?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds,
either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they
didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually
were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular
case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they
didn't want to meet them.

I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see
them.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you
indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the
Soviet system of government?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember saying anything like
that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful
coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each
other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that.
Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate
atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever
invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a
top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never said that. That is a purely Texas
invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.

Mr. JENNER. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it--period.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote--I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9
months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether
it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the University
of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled
"Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic
dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall
even what I had written there.

Mr. JENNER. I just wanted the general nature of it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based
on the travel in Mexico with some girls--that is about all. That is
what I would write at that time and that age.

Mr. JENNER. You were interested in girls?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad
Russian?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite
often.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet
of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King
of Bananas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of
Bananas. At least I called him that.

I remember his name now--I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo
Machado. I still--I think he is still in existence, because I asked
about him recently.

Mr. JENNER. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your
own judgment of yourself?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call
me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.

Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like
to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you
pass the limit it is too much.

Mr. JENNER. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday
to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your
recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; quite often.

Mr. JENNER. Were they substantially regular--once a month?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Without regularity, but quite
often--mainly to see my clients there.

Mr. JENNER. And your clients were who?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the oil business--I mainly used to come to
see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the
social acquaintances that I had there--Andy Todd, an architect there,
a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else--I don't recall
the name.

Mr. JENNER. But these trips to Houston were strictly business?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push
forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise
some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on
that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that
purpose--purely for business.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an
artist?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; my wife's daughter is a painter.

Mr. JENNER. Christiana?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter
were living in Dallas with you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation--as
an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition
to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Switzerland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Sweden and Denmark.

Mr. JENNER. France, Sweden and Denmark?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that
you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't see those countries--I didn't
have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden,
visiting some distant relatives there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called
true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Political discussions?

Mr. JENNER. Arguments?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The
real argument I had--I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday--was with
the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very
strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this
Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I
told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United
States--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased
in their opinions.

Mr. JENNER. Biased and rigid?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and
without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United
States than anybody else, because they could--I could explain to them
the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how
joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to
them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them
it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like
me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them,
it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all
that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when
it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small
syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to
them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I
think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to
me from there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time,
did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France,
Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on
geological visits?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There might have been some projects to do that,
and it did not materialize.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at
the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1960?

Mr. JENNER. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your
passport being renewed on March 11?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember.
Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to
Belgium--I went on this consulting job to Ghana.

I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she
remembers the dates.

I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little
boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning
to. But my wife will remember all that.

Mr. JENNER. So we can identify you as far as these papers are
concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white
male, 6'1" tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a
scar on your face?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side,
I think you can see.

Mr. JENNER. Right-hand cheek?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my
childhood. And this one is a new one--I got it in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near
your hairline?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You suffered that in Yugoslavia?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head--had a
few stitches taken.

Mr. JENNER. And your----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, I may say--my wife reminded me of it
today--regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast
Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941--of course, which I was not doing,
because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in
Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought
I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also
making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us.

Mr. JENNER. Shot?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shot. And they told me to get away--we were in
a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were
hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea.
So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of
an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation--that
I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I
should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting.

Mr. JENNER. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is
he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he
came to this country in the early twenties.

Mr. JENNER. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in
the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is
located.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale.

Mr. JENNER. Do those facts square with your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember
he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee--they were roommates.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and
was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to
this country.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; before I came back for the first time to
this country.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to
arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but
arranged my permit.

Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate
that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit
Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his
family, and collecting material for magazine articles.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about the right time when I first saw him
after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in
Poland.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at
Yale, had he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I don't know what year he completed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take some additional----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't
know what year he received his Ph. D.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ph. D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can
get away from teaching.

Mr. JENNER. And he is a Ph. D. and a professor at Dartmouth College?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College.

Mr. JENNER. Hanover, N.H.?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian
Review, a magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't he found that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he founded that magazine.

Mr. JENNER. And what does he teach at Dartmouth?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he is a professor of Russian culture,
Russian civilization, history.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--is this a description of him: He is a white
male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes.

Mr. JENNER. Unlike yours, that are blue?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He is browneyed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he
didn't know that we were in Europe.

Mr. JENNER. Neither knew that the other was?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in
the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence.

Mr. JENNER. Does your brother have a mustache?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have
grown it lately.

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't
she--Romeyn?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons.

Mr. JENNER. She was born April 17--December 25, 1943. We brought that
out yesterday.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Christmas Day.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone
Fleischer--Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her
stepfather--Walter Washington Stecker.

Mr. JENNER. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted
by Walter Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1958, Dominican Embassy?

Mr. JENNER. The month of April.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think I was invited to--Dominican Embassy.
Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Washington?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of
concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried
to contact the Dominican Ambassador--purely for business reasons--some
kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the
last--let's say the last 6 months?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in
March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian
Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between
planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right
connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would
stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next
morning.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican
Republic?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there.

Mr. JENNER. When next were you there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes;
we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the
same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night.

Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning,
on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in
1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check
on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau
of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and
then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican
Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And
then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.

Mr. JENNER. On this present trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican
Republic?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember
now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody
told me--I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist
in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and
never was able to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt,
that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between
Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought
nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement.
I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.

Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the
President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I
could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him
for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But,
again, it is purely speculation on our part.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I
have to pursue it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no
other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two
together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you
see--especially I remember reading in one of the papers that----

Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign
language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get
Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one
of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife
before the assassination that he was going to get some money.

Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started
coming--arising in my imagination.

Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to
Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in
dismal poverty.

Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you
went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you
exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just
packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from
Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States,
saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost
that card.

Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in
December of 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a
letter to her.

Mr. JENNER. From where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the
death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since
we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the
misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime
last fall."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and
especially his wife Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it
is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President
of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we
still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us
no end of difficulty, from every point of view.

Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the
situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that
is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And,
actually,----

Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
What was wrong with what you did?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were
charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.

Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion
he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing
of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair
statement?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I
have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and
I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was
mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and
sickly."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is all correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we
heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their
miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the
character."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him
seriously."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian
refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to
her husband." You have told me about that course of events.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes
occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy
for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains,
and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady
characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions
should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two
sentences.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the
President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely
jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young,
attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and
was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had
nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in
everything he did.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a
way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own
bootstraps?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it
made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he
was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a
mental blackout.

Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have
been taken."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better
precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at
the time to protect the President.

Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very
first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the
assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in
the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and
he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee,
Lee, Lee--and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"

And he said, "I guess that is the name."

Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it
occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic.

Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the
rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the
Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were
driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy
and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some
association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a
gun there.

But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read
and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas,
and out of contact with events.

The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers.

Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and
naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.

Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from
somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place--he was
getting regular checks.

Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place.

Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me
to make any conclusions.

Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December
12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper
articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original.

Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the
letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have
any of your handwriting on it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed.

Mr. JENNER. Typed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that
letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti,
this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your
sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs.
Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has
two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the
stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a
lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his
judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his
judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my
testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly
because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy.
That is why I have the doubts.

Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the
things you have told me about in this long examination?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any
humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering
anybody else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering
doubts?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been
involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information
of anybody else being involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No information.

Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what
you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read
foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald
did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was--that
somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the
bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and
all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the
colony of foreigners--Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti,
most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.

Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in
the papers they receive from their homeland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are
sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that
subject.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that
you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what?

Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the
other.

Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss
was not intended to imply that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on
whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to
say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.

Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report,
which I assume you will.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February
2, 1964?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those
as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the
letter was enclosed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written.

Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us
about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in
1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people
connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.

I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the
northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a
company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the
Cuban situation.

In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of
the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time
then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip----

Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the
Central American countries?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project
from then on.

Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for
Haiti--at the end of May 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti,
did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington.

Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington
preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the
people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were
attempting to interest?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a
Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting
this contract.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"
for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued
in connection with the Haiti venture.

Am I correct about that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by
reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the
right?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent
success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip----

Mr. JENNER. That is a headline?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that?

Mr. JENNER. I would prefer--can you translate that literally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America
by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general
of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent
success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.

"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant
mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph
Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner,
who was at that time in Europe.

"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard
Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and
the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles
has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The
active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti
has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest
financial companies in New York which does business in the millions
of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the
Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to
the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial
Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer
periods.

"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate
business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start
through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of
construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.

"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will
be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country
will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting
contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president
and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for
Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which
will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial
Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."

Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading
that you described.

Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city
of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of
the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday
morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New
York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the
Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street,
New York.

"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient
time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants
to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which
he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his
commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the
city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key
of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.

Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper
in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.

Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion
literature with respect to your Haitian venture?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible
investor with the personalities involved.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and
you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian
Government.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard
Joseph Charles?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify
as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of
correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you
transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received.

(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first
sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in
your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas.

The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr.
Raigorodsky; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you,
dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in
your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."

Is what I have said correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one
sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum
Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building,
Dallas 1, Tex.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have
given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4,
5, and 6" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to
Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one
a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963,
from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of
yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil;
dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes
of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De
Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and
16" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some
additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three
documents.

The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in
the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul
Raigorodsky.

The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten
signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."

Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You
transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also
enclose the third document, which is a diagram of----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand
"Credits available for these industries--George De M., Dallas,
September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which
you--excuse me.

Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified
as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9,
and 10" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11"
for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of
Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available
to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is
it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not
elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the
upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an
arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts."

Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three
lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the
word "Caracol." Read those words.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach."

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant
there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis."
And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands
encircled, there appears more writing.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have
you explain it all later.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession."

Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at
the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have
already identified in the record.

Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions
we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between
the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center
of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the
area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is
some writing. What is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the
bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow
pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel."

Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of
the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an
area, the chief town of which appears to be what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes.

Mr. JENNER. And what is written there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on
there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about
your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in
some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous
work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in
the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.

I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which--

Mr. JENNER. Of what country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity
to present a geological survey of Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and
all the mineralogical points of the whole country.

Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a
legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to
you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral
deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who
might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business
promotional project.

Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in
any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great
care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or
group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps,
and no other project, except our own commercial and geological
project--nothing else.

Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision
by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here
in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are
officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.

On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and
on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building.
He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his
maps, and we pursue our own work there.

I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian
geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the
equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss
assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now,
recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his
family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.

I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska,
an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and
geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have
geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian
Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay
$20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the
sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.

This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J.
Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now
Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work,
and I am pursuing my geological work.

Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because
I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the
project, and its good faith.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be
sufficiently justified in good faith.

Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which
you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually
participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.

Mr. JENNER. Such as?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries,
development of oil production, development of new hotels and new
resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I
think has excellent opportunities for American investments.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you
not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in
connection with the assassination of the President?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away
from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would
do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there
are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at
targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent,
you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to
jail, but sent away from the town.

Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind.

Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon,
and he was target practicing with it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that
knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I
think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have
known.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not
know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's
attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information.

Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they
should have done what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have--in my opinion, they
shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1.

And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even
knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent
character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from
the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New
Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should
have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated
February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt
Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12
and 13," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and
its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15,
respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14
and 15," for identification.)

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made
official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed
by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating
that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the
consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti,
originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S.
Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on
sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the
duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I
think that will explain it.

Mr. JENNER. Fine.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project,
because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.

Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De
Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his
letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to
read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might
want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of
the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.

It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.

"Dear George:

"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please
accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you.

"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew
Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."

Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the
words "It seems."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I
imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington
again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to
meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my
warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."

Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I
hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.

"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss."

Mr. JENNER. Dated?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas
card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3,
Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph?

Mr. JENNER. The whole card.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes
for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.

"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital.
Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We
are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas.

"George."

Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the
crimes in Dallas"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President
and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the
assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one
after another.

Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the
flesh?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Did you know him when you were in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him
when you were in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took
place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything
occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or
indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to
you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw,
that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you
to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not join?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that.

Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an
opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any
business advantage.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite
a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of
Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of
the whole project. It may be all for the best.

Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of
Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily
to the--what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting
forth the background of information on a holding company that you were
developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company."

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962."

Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have
just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many
other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and
people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.

I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development
of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil
possibilities.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the
record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything
that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions
which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is
pertinent and should be brought out?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any.

Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you
this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful
investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think
is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important
work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you
could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much
as you can?

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at
some inconvenience?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff,
I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this
country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here
for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly
personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been
personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read
your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that
you would like to read it over.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very
hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have
said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very
much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive
the necessity of reading and signing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Fine.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I