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Title: Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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    INVESTIGATION OF

    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President's Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ VII


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O'BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.


Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII:
Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K.
Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J.
M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens,
William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam
Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity
of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey
Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour
Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C.
N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts,
John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E.
Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W.
Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks,
Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee
Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or
observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination;
William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the
purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis,
who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill
Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper,
William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas
School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a
parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of
the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of
the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into
the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas
police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert
with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper
in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the
assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the
motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers,
assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and
testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade;
Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former
Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the
motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder,
who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda
K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove
Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the
morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett,
Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar
Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue
William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the
positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus,
a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert
A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms
identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert
Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity
of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms
store in Dallas.



Contents


                                            Page
    Preface                                    v

    Testimony of--
      Johnny Calvin Brewer                     1
      Julia Postal                             8
      Warren H. Burroughs                     14
      Bob K. Carroll                          17
      Thomas Alexander Hutson                 26
      C. T. Walker                            34
      Gerald Lynn Hill                        43
      J. M. Poe                               66
      John Gibson                             70
      James Putnam                            74
      Rio S. Pierce                           76
      Calvin Bud Owens                        78
      William Arthur Smith                    82
      George Jefferson Applin, Jr             85
      Ray Hawkins                             91
      L. D. Montgomery                        96
      Marvin Johnson                         100
      Seymour Weitzman                       105
      W. R. Westbrook                        109
      Elmer L. Boyd                          119
      Robert Lee Studebaker                  137
      C. N. Dhority                     149, 380
      Richard M. Sims                        158
      Richard S. Stovall                     186
      Walter Eugene Potts                    195
      John P. Adamcik                        202
      Henry M. Moore                         212
      F. M. Turner                           217
      Guy F. Rose                            227
      W. E. Perry                            232
      Richard L. Clark                       235
      Don R. Ables                           239
      Daniel Gutierrez Lujan                 243
      C. W. Brown                            246
      L. C. Graves                           251
      James R. Leavelle                      260
      W. E. Barnes                           270
      J. B. Hicks                            286
      Harry D. Holmes                   289, 525
      James W. Bookhout                      308
      Manning C. Clements                    318
      Gregory Lee Olds                       322
      H. Louis Nichols                       325
      Forrest V. Sorrels                332, 592
      William J. Waldman                     360
      Mitchell J. Scibor                     370
      Heinz W. Michaelis                     372
      J. C. Cason                            379
      Roy S. Truly                      380, 591
      Warren Caster                          386
      Eddie Piper                            388
      William H. Shelley                     390
      Edward Shields                         393
      Sam Guinyard                           395
      J. C. Day                              401
      Thomas J. Kelley                  403, 590
      J. W. Fritz                            403
      Mary Jane Robertson                    404
      Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt                   410
      James C. Cadigan                       418
      Earlene Roberts                        439
      Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough               439
      Kenneth P. O'Donnell                   440
      Lawrence F. O'Brien                    457
      David F. Powers                        472
      Clifton C. Carter                      474
      Earle Cabell                           476
      Mrs. Earle Cabell                      485
      Philip L. Willis                       492
      Linda Kay Willis                       498
      Helen Markham                          499
      Mrs. Donald Baker                      507
      James W. Altgens                       515
      Buell Wesley Frazier                   531
      Joe Marshall Smith                     531
      Welcome Eugene Barnett                 539
      Eddy Raymond Walthers                  544
      James Thomas Tague                     552
      Emmett J. Hudson                       558
      Edgar Leon Smith, Jr                   565
      Abraham Zapruder                       569
      Perdue William Lawrence                577
      Ronald G. Wittmus                      590
      Robert A. Frazier                      590
      Cortlandt Cunningham                   591
      Charles L. Killion                     591
      John Joe Howlett                       592
      Marrion L. Baker                       592
      Robert Brock                           593
      Mary Brock                             593
      Harold Russell                         594
      David Goldstein                        594


EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

                                  Page
    Baker Exhibit No. 1            512
    Barnes Exhibit:
      A                            273
      B                            273
      C                            273
      D                            273
      E                            273
      F                            275
    Brock (Mary) Exhibit A.        593
    Brock (Robert) Exhibit A.      593
    Cabell Exhibit No. 1           476
    Cadigan Exhibit No.:
       1                           419
       2                           419
       3                           419
       3-A                         420
       4                           420
       5                           421
       6                           421
       7                           421
       8                           421
       9                           421
      10                           421
      11                           423
      12                           424
      13                           424
      14                           425
      15                           428
      16                           428
      17                           428
      18                           428
      19                           428
      20                           429
      21                           429
      22                           431
      23                           432
      24                           432
      25                           436
      26                           437
      27                           437
      28                           437
      29                           437
      30                           437
    Dhority Exhibit:
      A                            154
      B                            154
    Gibson Exhibit A                71
    Hill Exhibit:
      A                             50
      B                             52
      C                             53
    Holmes Exhibit No.:
      1                            292
      1-A                          527
      2                            294
      2-A                          528
      3                            295
      3-A                          529
      4                            297
      5                            307
      6                            307
    Hudson Exhibit No. 1           562
    Kelley Exhibit A               403
    Lawrence Exhibit No.:
      1                            579
      2                            585
      3                            586
      4                            589
    Leavelle Exhibit A.            270
    Markham Exhibit No.:
      1                            500
      2                            505
    Michaelis Exhibit No.:
      1                            374
      2                            377
      3                            377
      4                            378
      5                            378
    Moore Exhibit No. 1            214
    Nichols Exhibit A              332
    Potts Exhibit:
      A-1                          198
      A-2                          198
      B                            202
      C                            202
    Putnam Exhibit No. 1            75
    Robertson Exhibit No.:
      1                            406
      2                            406
      3                            409
    Russell Exhibit A              594
    Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.:
      1                            410
      2                            410
      3                            410
      4                            410
      5                            413
      6                            416
      7                            417
    Sims Exhibit A                 182
    Sorrels Exhibit No.:
      4                            341
      5                            360
    Stovall Exhibit:
      A                            190
      B                            193
      C                            195
      D                            195
    Studebaker Exhibit:
      A                            139
      B                            139
      C                            140
      D                            141
      E                            142
      F                            144
      G                            145
      H                            146
      I                            146
      J                            147
    Tague Exhibit No. 1            556
    Turner Exhibit No. 1           222
    Waldman Exhibit No.:
       1                           361
       2                           363
       3                           363
       4                           364
       5                           364
       6                           366
       7                           366
       8                           366
       9                           367
      10                           367
    Weitzman Exhibit:
      D                            108
      E                            108
      F                            108
    Westbrook Exhibit:
      A                            114
      B                            117
      C                            117
      D                            117
    Willis Exhibit No. 1           497
    Yarborough Exhibit A           440



Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER

The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April
2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BREWER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. BREWER. Johnny Calvin Brewer.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. BREWER. Twenty-two.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BREWER. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102.

Mr. BELIN. What city and state?

Mr. BREWER. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. BREWER. Born in Miami, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. In Oklahoma?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When did you move to Texas?

Mr. BREWER. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a
construction company and we moved to Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir?

Mr. BREWER. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to
Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10
years in Lockhart.

Mr. BELIN. You graduated from high school?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BREWER. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San
Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's
Shoe Store. I--that was in September, and I got married in December.
And I have been with them ever since.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?

Mr. BREWER. In September of 1961.

Mr. BELIN. Do they assign you to any particular store?

Mr. BREWER. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for
about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a
store down on Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman?

Mr. BREWER. I was assistant manager.

Mr. BELIN. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the address of that shop in Dallas?

Mr. BREWER. 213 West Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. They made you the manager of that shop?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been manager?

Mr. BREWER. Since August of 1962.

Mr. BELIN. From August 1962 on?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Until the present time?

Mr. BREWER. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.

Mr. BELIN. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?

Mr. BREWER. Second.

Mr. BELIN. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were
firing me, but it turned out they weren't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?

Mr. BREWER. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit,
that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be considered a promotion?

Mr. BREWER. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would
be considered a promotion.

Mr. BELIN. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the
day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about
the assassination, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. BREWER. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store,
just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the
bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all
there was. We listened to all of the events.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?

Mr. BREWER. I heard a rumor. They said that--one of the Secret Service
men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio
concerning anything that happened that afternoon?

Mr. BREWER. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what
they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too
much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated
them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard
on the radio that an officer had been shot?

Mr. BREWER. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson
headed toward West Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson?

Mr. BREWER. Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. How far is Beckley from your store?

Mr. BREWER. Two blocks.

Mr. BELIN. Two blocks to the east or to the west?

Mr. BREWER. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and
the next street is Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street
is Beckley?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, right.

Mr. BELIN. Is your store located to the north or south side of
Jefferson?

Mr. BREWER. On the north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BREWER. I looked up and out towards the street and the police
cars----

Mr. BELIN. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all?

Mr. BREWER. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I
looked up and saw the man enter the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you
to describe how is--how wide is your store, approximately?

Mr. BREWER. About 20 feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the
sidewalk?

Mr. BREWER. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the
sidewalk, front doors.

Mr. BELIN. The front doors?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show
windows on each side.

Mr. BELIN. This would be, if we were--if we would take a look at the
letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom
part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the
letter, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the
sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as
this lobby area?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.

Mr. BELIN. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he
stepped into this lobby area?

Mr. BREWER. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped
in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he make the U-turn?

Mr. BREWER. At Zangs.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the sirens going away?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where
the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when
they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around
and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you
know who the man was at the time you saw him?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Will you describe the man you saw?

Mr. BREWER. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150
pounds is all.

Mr. BELIN. How tall are you, by the way?

Mr. BREWER. Six three.

Mr. BELIN. So you say he was about 5'9"?

Mr. BREWER. About 5'9".

Mr. BELIN. And about 150?

Mr. BREWER. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His
shirt tail was out.

Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. What color of trousers, do you remember?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Light or dark?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.

Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed?

Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.

Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?

Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Light complexioned or dark?

Mr. BREWER. Light complexioned.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store
there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension
of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward----

Mr. BELIN. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?

Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens.

Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going
away?

Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Going the other way?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How could you tell?

Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do?

Mr. BREWER. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West
Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched
him, and he went into the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that?

Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?

Mr. BREWER. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had
seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before.
And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed
funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been
running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in
your lobby there?

Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared.

Mr. BELIN. He stared?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise?

Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there
staring.

Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you
saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BREWER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the
theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket
to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't.
She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in
there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen
him.

So I walked in and Butch Burroughs----

Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs?

Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and
takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if
he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that
description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and
hadn't seen anybody.

And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits
were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.

I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?

Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.

Mr. BELIN. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box
office?

Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the
theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see
him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all
the other buildings.

Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him
purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?

Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box
office.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you
walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?

Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You just asked her?

Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go
in.

Mr. BELIN. She--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you
remember?

Mr. BREWER. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description
going in.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do?

Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage.
First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to
the back and it hadn't been opened.

Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and
a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you
close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to
close it from the inside.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?

Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.

Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked
around but we couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see
him?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?

Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark
and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20.
I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?

Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?

Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard
a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him.

But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went
back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.

Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went--Butch went to
the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood
there until the police came.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights
on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?

Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from
the back, toward the back.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know
exactly which row he was in from the back?

Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. BREWER. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then
he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there
was no place I could see.

Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin
with?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the
alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on
the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a
couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing
there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was
suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.

And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him
out.

And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I
pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of
the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the
back.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald
stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said,
and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was
Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few
times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man?

Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to
the show.

Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first?

Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.

Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who?

Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the
seats. And then real quick he was back up.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he was----

Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second
and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward
that, and I saw this gun come up and--in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the
air.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air?

Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun
away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting,
still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who
it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they
were hitting him.

Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him
and they took him out.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the
handcuffs on him?

Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald
stopped fighting?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around
and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not
resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen,
whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them
aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all
the people that were in the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you
referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble
or concrete?

Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo.

Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him?

Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were you from the front door?

Mr. BREWER. Ten feet.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass.

Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store
and watched him.

Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out
in front of your store?

Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture
store. What is the name of that?

Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know--notice how fast this man was walking?

Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual.

Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him?

Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I
don't really know what I was thinking about.

Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the
theatre?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?

Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet--yards.

Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you
do?

Mr. BREWER. Then I walked toward the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the
theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came
in?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way
bears on this?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked
"Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that
looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?

Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in
the elbows at all, or not?

Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?

Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.

Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything
other than "I am not resisting arrest."?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?

Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.

Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before
or after they had the handcuffs on him?

Mr. BREWER. After.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back
and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing
of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington.
Do you have any preference on it?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this.
I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we
first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded
in this written testimony?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as
stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I
just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell
you what I thought the story was?

Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take
the time to be here. We thank you very much.

Mr. BREWER. Okay.



TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL

The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mrs. POSTAL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just
in general.

Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here
to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out
there.

Mr. BALL. Finished high school there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it.

Mr. BALL. In California?

Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and
came back here. I have been here ever since.

Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and
officework in connection with theatres.

Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans,
and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in
the office.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years;
really, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where?

Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas--really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at
the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24.

Mr. BALL. Same theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall?

Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and
then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until
they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box
office and worked until 5.

Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets.

Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with
school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets,
because it is just straight through.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your
box office open?

Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes
later or something, but that is our regular hours.

Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around
12:45, 1 o'clock?

Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and
ticket.

Mr. BALL. What was his name?

Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.

Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession
counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you
go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and
steps insides, and tears tickets.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we
opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little
transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were
saying again that he had been shot.

Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President
Kennedy was dead or----

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box
office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official
report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone
wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came
out and said that he was officially dead.

Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office,
did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about--it was just about
the time all chaos broke loose.

Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you
opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?

Mrs. POSTAL. Some.

Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate?

Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24.

Mr. BALL. Twenty-four?

Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything
was happening so fast.

Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. That's right.

Mr. BALL. What was the price of admission?

Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50
cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.

Mr. BALL. Same price?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see
any activity on the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer
had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on
Thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time I heard the
sirens--police was racing back and forth.

Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark,
"Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect,
so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got
in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were
going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know
it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way,
Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that
particular theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.

Mr. BALL. Its siren on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.

Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on,
why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see
the man that ducked? This man that you were----

Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--I don't
know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.

Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In
other words, he ducked right in.

Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on
his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you
seen him before the car went by, the police went by?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed,
as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss
went that way to get in his car.

Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?

Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.

Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man
ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.

Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from
the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part
of it.

Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other
way just at the same time.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually--because I stepped out of the box
office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the
box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up
quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was
standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought
a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around
expecting to see him.

Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?

Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of
business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said,
"Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there.
So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he
has to be there." So I told him to go back and check--we have exit
doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked
him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there.
Well, he just had to be.

Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was
just standing outside of the door, was he?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk,
and he headed for the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was closed?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?

Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and
Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that
way. He had come from east going west.

Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like--I told him--asked him to check everything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he
is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and
examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he
hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody
getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny
about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know
if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running
from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police,
and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it
was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well,
it fits the description," and I have not--I said I hadn't heard the
description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some
reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the
sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the
description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks
like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this
brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and
medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I
called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and
see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and
what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the
picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So,
seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden,
police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people
in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were
carrying--well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot
because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said,
"I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?"
And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit
used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you
know, and that--then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there
and----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre
that this officer used the phone?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was after?

Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They
were running.

Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I--like I said, the public was getting there at that
time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything
and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I
remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like
this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse
(sic) language which--inside. I'd say four or five.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around
him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way.

Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises
or cuts on his face?

Mrs. POSTAL. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any?

Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the
reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.

Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they
had him.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a
live mob scene, that----

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said,
"Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out
to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming
profuse language and--"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to
him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to
Oswald--when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I didn't
know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because
he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off,
and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers
was--at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to
try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read
in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car,
and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.

Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station?

Mrs. POSTAL. Police station?

Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the
Thursday following.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on
the 4th of December. Would that be about right?

Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday?

Mr. BALL. Yes; I think.

Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.

Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes;
because I know I didn't go down until the following week.

Mr. BALL. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on--out of the
theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said,
"I'm sure we have got our man----"?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed
at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were
bringing Oswald out.

Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do
you have any idea?

Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along
here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is
what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door
there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right
on up in the balcony.

Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people
do then get by him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says,
"Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going
out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran
up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch
would have seen him.

Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second
row from the----

Mrs. POSTAL. Third.

Mr. BALL. Third?

Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the
balcony down there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and
right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring
you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's
seeing him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

Mr. BALL. And he could go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.

Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look
anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it
is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Outside his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the
corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You say----

Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and
sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on
to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about
it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without
your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.



TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS

The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April
8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?

Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I
stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private
school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.

Mr. BALL. You are now?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work
have you been doing?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as
an apprentice, he is an electrician.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I
passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough
points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying
me different.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre,
were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have?

Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On
weekends I usher.

Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. During the week?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And, run the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do,
run them off?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out
and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you
usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and
get an admission ticket.

Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to
work?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.

Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes.

Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and
some officers, didn't you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put
in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in
front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I
was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked
up the stairs real fast.

Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come
through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the
struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a
ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but
I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on
upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were
cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a
shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man
came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the
show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the
exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back
out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through
the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back
there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them.

Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in
the front?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out
to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the
parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any
police officer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and
that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main
thing.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre
to behind the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the
doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is
straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the
shoe salesman; what did you do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this
door.

Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I
stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out
to the concession.

Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was.

Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the
exit door to the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. There was not?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the
police?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really
couldn't tell.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when
they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my
rights," and all that.

Mr. BALL. What else did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at
everybody.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both
hands above his head.]

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a
mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and
they put him in the car and went off.

Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him
from the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him
out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side.

Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door
into the car.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of
this man, who arrested him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the
butt of a shotgun?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written
up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your
signature right now. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read
it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later.

Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby.



TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARROLL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?

Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High.

Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at
Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and
on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go
back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on
active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released
from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went
to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them
for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas
Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas
Police Department.

Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the
radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the
special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau,
I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section
and the vice section and the administrative section.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m.
for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that
time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?

Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform
officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one
detective for each block.

Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?

Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four
blocks, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was
walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped
in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV
just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the
office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and
I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city
hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?

Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting
occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1
o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after
I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I
was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement
and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came
back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that
an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information
on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the
phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated
it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I
come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested
permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K.
E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?

Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau.
He doesn't work in uniform.

Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?

Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman,
but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came
out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas
Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five
blocks away--I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and
ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at
the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of
the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the
head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in
the theatre--I don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and
that was all the conversation I heard from her.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lady was?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. BALL. Was it the girl who sells tickets?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever met Julia Postal?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. BALL. And where was the lady when you talked to her?

Mr. CARROLL. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went
through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that
he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with
her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the
balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.

Mr. BALL. You and Lyons went in the front door then?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or
rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the
balcony.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone in the balcony?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, there were people sitting around there.

Mr. BALL. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well,
the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older
people and so we started back down----

Mr. BALL. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?

Mr. CARROLL. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called
and checked about the officer.

Mr. BALL. Who are "they"?

Mr. CARROLL. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--I don't
know who it was at that time.

Mr. BALL. What was the description that he gave you?

Mr. CARROLL. He just gave a general height description and age--just
generally.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what he said.

Mr. CARROLL. I'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and I
can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it
was all--I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a
detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how
he worded it.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me the approximate age--around?

Mr. CARROLL. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something,
like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and
everything like that.

Mr. BALL. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your
memory, I suppose?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; not as to that.

Mr. BALL. You didn't make a note of it?

Mr. CARROLL. It was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see
anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over
the telephone by the dispatcher?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I thought fit it.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to
the lower floor when I heard someone holler something--I believe it was
"Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you
could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and
Lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and I started running and I came up
to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the
left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in
the aisle behind from the left.

Mr. BALL. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle
and then come up on Oswald's right.

Mr. BALL. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen?

Mr. CARROLL. Jerry Hill--Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BALL. And then, who came from behind?

Mr. CARROLL. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"?

Mr. CARROLL. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony.

Mr. BALL. And you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle?

Mr. CARROLL. To the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the
lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through
the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which
row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre.

Mr. BALL. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the
screen?

Mr. CARROLL. It was approximately--close to the center of the second
bunch of seats.

Mr. BALL. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle?

Mr. CARROLL. I saw standing up at the time--Oswald was standing up
there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon
him.

Mr. BALL. Where was McDonald?

Mr. CARROLL. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I
saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side.

Mr. BALL. Were they struggling?

Mr. CARROLL. Everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a
pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked
the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who had hold of that pistol at that time?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me
and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all,
and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who put them on him?

Mr. CARROLL. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--I think it
was Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. Put them on from behind?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did----

Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a
shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see
that?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him?

Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that
someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get
him.

Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his
arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.

I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and
detailing it--I believe it was his right arm.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making
sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of
a vigorous scuffle or something like that.

Mr. BALL. What happened then after that?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald
and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I
think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out
through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front
where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in
our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding
next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't
know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he
got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson,
I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the
police station.

Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he
hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe
those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality"
were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he
hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?

Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the
car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't
done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's
wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what
he said.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right
eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here,
somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real
sure.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?

Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car.
Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything
right there, we was trying to get him subdued.

Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud
voice or speaking softly?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult
because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was
pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him,"
or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and
after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said
anything I couldn't actually hear it.

Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep
his mouth shut?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came
out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one
man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his
head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when
we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I
say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two
people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did
not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car
ask Oswald if he had shot the President?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the
President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think
most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at
the time?

Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he
said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol."

Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You
killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being
asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving
the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as
we could.

Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?

Mr. CARROLL. The pistol?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt
immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the
theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat?

Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I
think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting
there.

Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I
was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly
from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the
third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right
into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our
interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery
office.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there
were several standing around there, but they would just take him and
hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and
they more or less come in and we would back off.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office.

Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you?

Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson,
Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with
us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't
remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but
he did come down with us.

Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his
ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons
and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and
taken care of.

Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before
you got to the personnel office?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.

Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that?

Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I
don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he
waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the
car.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets.

Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?

Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six.

Mr. BALL. Six bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.

Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment
or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like
bullets.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a
small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to
me like a hammer might have fallen on it.

Mr. BALL. On the firing pin?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might
have fallen on the cap.

Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?

Mr. CARROLL. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a
glass?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was
just a real light indent.

Mr. BALL. That was without a glass?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel
department?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day?

Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting
there. He was there most of the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark.

Mr. BALL. When was this done?

Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office.

Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together.

Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald
make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray
Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe
Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and
I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or
not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I
know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there
and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen
newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it
was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail
this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time.
It was so jumbled up there.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally?

Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I
had possession of it--possession of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or
the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.

Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had
delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six
bullets?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir.

Mr. BALL. With this group of officers?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you examined them?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all.

Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you
have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and
signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it
on to the Commission.

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch
with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down
and look it over.

Mr. CARROLL. All right.

Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you.



TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9,
1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARROLL. I do, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Your name is?

Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by
the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy,
have you not?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Ball take that?

Mr. CARROLL. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what day was that?

Mr. CARROLL. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day
that would be.

Mr. BELIN. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we
didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then
they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has
been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel
2" barrel with wooden handle.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it?

Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw
it?

Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my
direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.

Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time?

Mr. CARROLL. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey
Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it
pointed in your direction?

Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not.

Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it?

Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it?

Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt.

Mr. BELIN. And then?

Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I
released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station?

Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or
after you started up the car, if you remember?

Mr. CARROLL. After.

Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.

Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw
on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. BELIN. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol?

Mr. CARROLL. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the
pistol.

Mr. BELIN. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is
pointing up also, is that correct?

Mr. CARROLL. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials?

Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?

Mr. BELIN. Where were you?

Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police
department.

Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or
wherever he had it, or not?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it?

Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police
station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that--he
said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name?

Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely,
but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what
the other one was.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from
the identification?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification.
I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the
station?

Mr. CARROLL. No; I didn't hear him say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an
address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?

Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.

Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what?

Mr. CARROLL. Later that day.

Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it?

Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the
city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed
this or not, that in any way might be relevant?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we
took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left
him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer.

Mr. BELIN. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and
then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it
was or was not loaded?

Mr. CARROLL. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun.

Mr. BELIN. How many bullets were in it?

Mr. CARROLL. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I
recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second
trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you
first testified.

You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign
it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive.

Mr. CARROLL. I will sign it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted.

Mr. CARROLL. All right, fine.



TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON

The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April
3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUTSON. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?

Mr. HUTSON. Thomas A. Hutson.

Mr. BELIN. And your occupation?

Mr. HUTSON. Police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Hutson?

Mr. HUTSON. Thirty-five years.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. HUTSON. Nine years.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. High school?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Graduate of high school or not?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What school?

Mr. HUTSON. Forest Avenue High School.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got out of high school?

Mr. HUTSON. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general
office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long was that?

Mr. HUTSON. That was in 1947, in July--that is in January of 1947, and
I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the
U.S. Army.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you serve in the Army?

Mr. HUTSON. Four years.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. HUTSON. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from
there I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I
joined them in October of 1948.

I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of
1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort
Sam Houston.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do, basically, in Germany?

Mr. HUTSON. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I
was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing
mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course,
you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway.

Mr. BELIN. You got back to the States?

Mr. HUTSON. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston,
Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and
there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually you were discharged?

Mr. HUTSON. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there--this was
during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett,
Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was
discharged in July of 1952.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas &
Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. HUTSON. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year,
and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the
service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the service station business?

Mr. HUTSON. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold
my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the
Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year?

Mr. HUTSON. 1955.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the
fall of 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have included November 22, 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with the
Presidential motorcade on November 22?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood
Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade
passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. To direct traffic?

Mr. HUTSON. I was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back
that was surging in the street.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the
signs?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. HUTSON. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19,
involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the
signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United
States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this
location.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HUTSON. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository
and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in
front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main
entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. HUTSON. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter,
and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two
officers.

Mr. BELIN. You were there with two more officers?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were they?

Mr. HUTSON. They were at the top of the stairs at the door.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the names of these officers?

Mr. HUTSON. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J.
B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman.

Mr. BELIN. Were those officers there when you got there?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were they motorcycle officers or not?

Mr. HUTSON. Solo motorcycle officers.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best judgment?

Mr. HUTSON. Thirty minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you leave?

Mr. HUTSON. I was relieved by my sergeant.

Mr. BELIN. Did you let people go in that said they were employees
within the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused
to let anyone enter except police officers.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone leave the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was your back to the building?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I
assume?

Mr. HUTSON. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there.
There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens
coming in, that is what brought the big crowd.

Mr. BELIN. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or
anything from the building?

Mr. HUTSON. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from
duty?

Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come
on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a
police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on
shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that
they weren't sure on the exact location.

Mr. BELIN. Was this at about the time you were being released?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston,
did he say Elm and Houston?

Mr. HUTSON. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you
were on Main at that time?

Mr. HUTSON. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I
made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of
time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after
you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head, yes?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard
the first notice over the police radio?

Mr. HUTSON. No, I don't.

Mr. BELIN. At times you were working away from your police radio while
you were picking up the signs, is that correct?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak
Cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?

Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?

Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the
triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East
Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind
10th Street where the officer had been shot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car
with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was
riding in the back seat.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car?

Mr. HUTSON. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't
get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know
whether I would be able to start and go or not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled
into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of
the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the
telephone to call in.

I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I
mean their number to call in.

At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher
give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at
the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.

I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the
officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came
running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told
them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the
suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to
Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library
for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into
the basement of the library.

At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we
returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on
East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson,
the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering
the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was?

Mr. HUTSON. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location,
including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at
Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out
from the basement with their hands over their head.

One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked
him. A sergeant was there.

Mr. BELIN. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him.

Mr. BELIN. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding
west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East
Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered
the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any
recovery of any items of clothing?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did that occur?

Mr. HUTSON. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the
house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the
Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white
jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it
up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The
original description was that he was wearing a white jacket.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of jacket was it?

Mr. HUTSON. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the zipper type?

Mr. HUTSON. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards
away from the officer who picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard
about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. HUTSON. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He
didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on
Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn
to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way
street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of
the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of
the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors,
Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door
to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.

I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and
not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am
not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at
the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get
in."

I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description
and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for.

Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me,
and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door.

We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there
by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the
center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle
from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the
front in the center section.

Mr. BELIN. You were on the right center or the left center?

Mr. HUTSON. I was on the left center.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right
center aisle?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center
aisle.

Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand
up and searched them while I covered.

As soon as they were searched--well, I left out that part about the
number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I
walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the
lower floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you count them?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; I counted them.

Mr. BELIN. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed
toward the front of the center section, right?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where were the other five?

Mr. HUTSON. There was two sitting in the center section near the front,
and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats
over, I am not sure whether that was the third row--I put it in my
report----

Mr. BELIN. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated
December 3, 1963?

Mr. HUTSON. The third row from the back and the fifth seat.

Mr. BELIN. Was there another person there?

Mr. HUTSON. That was another person.

Mr. BELIN. Who was that?

Mr. HUTSON. That was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't know it at the time?

Mr. HUTSON. I didn't know who it was; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then who else?

Mr. HUTSON. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the
theatre was another man.

Mr. BELIN. In the back of the last row of the center section?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That accounts for four people. Where were the others?

Mr. HUTSON. There were two young boys.

Mr. BELIN. Where were they?

Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back
row.

Mr. BELIN. Right center or left center?

Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left
center section.

Mr. BELIN. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other
people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the
rear?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the rear.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you
count?

Mr. HUTSON. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many
policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards
the front of the center section? Were they searched?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. HUTSON. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the
theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the
right center section aisle.

As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he
approached this person. I approached from the row behind.

Mr. BELIN. You approached from the second row from the back?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you see happen?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became
engaged in a struggle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see who hit whom first?

Mr. HUTSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head, no.

Mr. HUTSON. No, I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre,
but it was dark.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. HUTSON. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and
this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on
the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him
off.

Mr. BELIN. This person was right-handed?

You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of
McDonald's face?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm
and put it around this person's throat.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was
originally sitting in.

At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that
the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand
and held it.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold
this person's right hand.

Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a
revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right
hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand,
on the suspect's right hand?

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this
person's right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Okay.

Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat,
up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?

Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol
snaps.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard
the snap?

Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.

Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that
direction.

Mr. BELIN. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen?

Mr. HUTSON. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?

Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the
screen.

Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?

Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could
have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking
up in the row of seats in front.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the
suspect say anything?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything?

Mr. HUTSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head no.

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened then?

Mr. HUTSON. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer
McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on
the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously,
we decided to handcuff him.

We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still
resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this
time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back
behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to
handcuff him.

At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were
handcuffing.

Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of
here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was
rushed out of the theatre.

I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry
Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter?

Mr. HUTSON. Oswald?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know this was Oswald?

Mr. HUTSON. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and
went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell
them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and
at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is,
he was probably the suspect that shot the officer.

Mr. BELIN. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with
the assassination?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did the police stop hitting him?

Mr. HUTSON. I never did ever see them hit him.

Mr. BELIN. You never saw any police hit him?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of about this
incident that you haven't related here?

While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing
here for a minute and I will be back.

Anything else, Officer, you can think of?

Mr. HUTSON. I can't think of anything else right now.

Mr. BELIN. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be
a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw?

Mr. HUTSON. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the
officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on
the lot.

Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up?

Mr. HUTSON. Approximately 25 yards.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?

Mr. HUTSON. I heard something--someone make the statement that that
looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not
wearing it now.

Mr. BELIN. Where is this Texaco station?

Mr. HUTSON. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the
intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of
Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when
it was found?

Mr. HUTSON. One-half block.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. What happened to the jacket?

Mr. HUTSON. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his
possession.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he gave it to?

Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?

Mr. HUTSON. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house
with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man,
but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was
when the officer had it.

Mr. BELIN. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this
before, or not?

Mr. HUTSON. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we
arrested in the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and
read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let
the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire
to do either one?

Mr. HUTSON. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BELIN. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas
Police Department, is that correct?

Mr. HUTSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and
please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in
charge.

Mr. HUTSON. All right, nice to have seen you all.



TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER

The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALKER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?

Mr. WALKER. C. T. Walker.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. WALKER. I am 31 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. WALKER. One child. One girl.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WALKER. Five years in July.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do prior to that?

Mr. WALKER. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.--I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was
born in Slaton, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. WALKER. Slaton, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you you go to high school there?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't finish high school.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you finish?

Mr. WALKER. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in
Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. WALKER. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I worked--I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my
uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.

Mr. BELIN. After that what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and
worked there 5-1/2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. WALKER. 1959, July the 27th.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or
so on that day?

Mr. WALKER. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there?

Mr. WALKER. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about
the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I
didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news
broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.

Mr. BELIN. Were you cruising alone at that time?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime
to work alone or in pairs?

Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and
night.

Mr. BELIN. Day and night?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?

Mr. WALKER. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third
platoon, they work two men.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4
in the afternoon?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Ever work with him at all?

Mr. WALKER. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same
substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite
well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him
there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return
to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around
shortly after you heard the news?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or
might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.

Mr. BELIN. You mean a block away from the fire station?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you called in?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They
have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been
shot.

I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to
my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.

And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went
on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.

Mr. BELIN. So you went on your own where?

Mr. WALKER. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. That is at Elm and Houston?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. WALKER. Right in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got your car parked?

Mr. WALKER. Went inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go inside?

Mr. WALKER. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway
there and I stayed in there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. WALKER. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly
searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs,
so I didn't go upstairs.

Mr BELIN. What did you do when you were downstairs?

Mr. WALKER. We were checking persons as they came in the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?

Mr. WALKER. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.

Mr. BELIN. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you
got down there?

Mr. WALKER. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Was the building sealed off at that time?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?

Mr. WALKER. No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. WALKER. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had
been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up
to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the
car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.

In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where
Officer Tippit was killed.

Mr. BELIN. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was still there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car
or not?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't really look real close.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witnesses there?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't get out.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. WALKER. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street
that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at
Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the
lawn of the library.

I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson,
and he was even south of Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. He was over a block.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person
fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of
the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the
back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then
surrounded the library.

Mr. BELIN. You were not the one that put out the first description of
the suspect they sought?

Mr. WALKER. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.

Mr. BELIN. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as
to what you were looking for?

Mr. WALKER. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored
coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. About 30 years old, I think he said.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?

Mr. WALKER. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the
other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered
everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the upstairs?

Mr. WALKER. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get
to it.

Mr. BELIN. Something like a basement?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone
came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that
he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's
see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I
soon determined he wasn't the one.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. WALKER. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again.
I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident
that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising
up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long
white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the
church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence
there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he
was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I
said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I
didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked
at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised
up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course
that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."

I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."

Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.

Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area,
when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed
to be at the theatre on Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the Texas Theatre?

Mr. WALKER. Texas Theatre; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WALKER. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived
there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up
on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but
he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And
there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself,
and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man
told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person
that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats
several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had
seen him do, or not?

Mr. WALKER. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked,
kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into
the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.

Mr. BELIN. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?

Mr. WALKER. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.

Mr. BELIN. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?

Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the
back of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the
back of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. I walked--McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he
walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I
jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we
started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he
was slightly in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M.
N. McDonald and yourself?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The three of you came in from the back?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just
don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Those are the three you remember?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right
center or the left center aisle?

Mr. WALKER. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle
that you were going up?

Mr. WALKER. Be the far left aisle, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Next to the wall?

Mr. WALKER. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a
row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another
row of seats.

Mr. BELIN. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which
would be to the left of the center row of seats?

Mr. WALKER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Okay; just tell what happened.

Mr. WALKER. There were two white males sitting approximately in the
center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what
point they come on.

Mr. BELIN. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?

Mr. WALKER. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald,
who turned out to be Oswald--I didn't know at that time it was him--and
two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the
seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe
it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.

Mr. BELIN. You were coming up the north aisle?

Mr. WALKER. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of
the show.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall then a total of six people?

Mr. WALKER. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. BELIN. The people behind the man that you later found out to be
Oswald, how far were they behind?

Mr. WALKER. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.

Mr. BELIN. In what row were they?

Mr. WALKER. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to
the last.

Mr. BELIN. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. WALKER. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the
back.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth or fifth row from the back?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting
together in the center?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You came up and approached those people?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached them from the----

Mr. BELIN. Right?

Mr. WALKER. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center
aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn?

Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that?

Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand
up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the
holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one
on the right.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at other people?

Mr. WALKER. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I
didn't know who they were.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. WALKER. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down,
and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we
approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him
from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle,
had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?

Mr. WALKER. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him
slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.

Mr. BELIN. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald
approached Oswald from Oswald's right?

Mr. WALKER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?

Mr. WALKER. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from
McDonald's aisle.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what happened?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly,
I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?

Mr. WALKER. No; he faced McDonald.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your
hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I
call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald
put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and
McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the
right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Looking in whose?

Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of
his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand
first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and
Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his
arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back
over the seat.

At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know
whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what,
but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw,
Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had
came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you
see by his belt?

Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you
see then?

Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.

Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?

Mr. WALKER. The revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it
out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.

Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not
he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was
a detective.

Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate
by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an
awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.

The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and
pointed out at about a 45° angle.

I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up
behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and
the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed
slightly toward the screen, what I call.

Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?

Mr. WALKER. A real light click, real light.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat?

Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell,
and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was
moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And
some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people
around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it
appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from
everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, what happened then?

Mr. WALKER. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm
around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."

He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."

I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and
Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his
right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and
turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.

And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and
we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had
came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.

He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to
whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging
blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did Hutson hit Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting
arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?

Mr. WALKER. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back
there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."

Mr. BELIN. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I
protest this police brutality."

People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We
want him."

Mr. BELIN. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination
of the President?

Mr. WALKER. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after,
I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. When you were after him, you were after him for what?

Mr. WALKER. For the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right
door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I.
We sat in the back seat with him.

Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know
who they were, that rode down, too.

There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.

Mr. BELIN. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until
the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?

Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police
station?

Mr. WALKER. As we were driving down there, yes; he said----

Mr. BELIN. Who was he?

Mr. WALKER. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this
all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying,
"I know my rights."

And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest
because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police
officer.

And he said, "Police officer been killed?"

And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."

And I said, "You might find out."

And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."

And that is all I recall.

Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him,
or not?

Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he
did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is,
he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been
to jail.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on?

Mr. WALKER. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair
of black pants.

Mr. BELIN. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?

Mr. WALKER. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like
that.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair?

Mr. WALKER. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?

Mr. WALKER. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Some shade of brown?

Mr. WALKER. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in
my opinion.

Mr. BELIN. Was it some shade of brown?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?

Mr. WALKER. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit
excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can
recall going down.

Mr. BELIN. After you got down there, what did you do with him?

Mr. WALKER. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went
back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.

I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with
him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed
with his hands behind him.

I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with
a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of card it was?

Mr. WALKER. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"

Mr. BELIN. He--had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. I believe he had.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WALKER. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."

And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill
the officer?"

And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because
you were scared of being arrested for something?"

And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared
now?"

Mr. BELIN. Did he look like he was scared?

Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a
bit nervous.

Mr. BELIN. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during
that time that he was with you?

Mr. WALKER. No; I can't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you
had with him?

Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and
some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald
had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me
two more." Or something like that.

But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the
time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.

I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened,
and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.

Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald
had, did you?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details
of the arrest.

Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of
Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief"
letter.

Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did
put what conversation we had.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you
said to him?

Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out
he was a suspect in the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that
he was the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual
killing of the President.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be
relevant?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this
deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long had you known Officer Tippit?

Mr. WALKER. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I
first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and
worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there
all the time.

I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training
and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for,
I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no
call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call
for--I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the
suspect in the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you
have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected
his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. WALKER. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was
suspicious of him as a suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you believe that?

Mr. WALKER. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made
good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally
good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above
normal.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you think he stopped this man?

Mr. WALKER. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he
probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he
would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the
assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?

Mr. WALKER. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and
it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he
fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it
is the suspect. You just don't do it.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22,
or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting
or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the
President's investigation?

Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while
until I got off.

Mr. BELIN. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?

Mr. WALKER. That would have been Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. Or did you work on Saturday?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any
investigation of any kind.

Mr. BELIN. Were you going back to accident investigation?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with
the assassination after November 22?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can
think of at this time, Officer Walker?

Mr. WALKER. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just
don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I
can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high
points of it.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?

Mr. WALKER. I don't recall. I think he said--I know he was repeating,
"I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he got the gun?

Mr. WALKER. No, he didn't say where he got the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that it was his gun?

Mr. WALKER. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said
he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed
it was his gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come
down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for
your cooperation.

Mr. WALKER. Okay. I know you've got a problem here.

Mr. BELIN. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the
deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to
either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing
of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to
us in Washington?

Mr. WALKER. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the
Dallas Police Department, I assume.

Mr. WALKER. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now?

Mr. BELIN. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to
read it or have her send it to us directly?

Mr. WALKER. Do I have to come, down here to read it here?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, you have to come down and read it here.

Mr. WALKER. I will come down and read it and sign it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, fine. Thank you, sir.



TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL

The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HILL. I do.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name.

Mr. HILL. Gerald Lynn Hill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HILL. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HILL. Since March 7, 1955.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Sergeant Hill?

Mr. HILL. Thirty-four.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. HILL. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. HILL. Went through high school.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of high school?

Mr. HILL. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from
January of 1948 until April of 1954.

At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the
paper.

Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and
worked for them until March the 21st, 1958.

The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police
academy for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the police department?

Mr. HILL. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my
notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the
police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the
police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms
with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they
worked out an agreement with me.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on duty?

Mr. HILL. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol
division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating
applicants for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this?

Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the
personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining
to the President's trip or any other function other than the
investigation of police applicants.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall?

Mr. HILL. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or--excuse
me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west
on Main.

I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the
third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R.
Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets
watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some
facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had
seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we
were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe
is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been
shot at Main and Lamar.

Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later--she just
made the statement and walked out--and a minute later Captain Westbrook
said, "She wasn't kidding."

And I said, "When she you mean?"

And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face."

And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to
the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third
floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the
dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the
intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down
in the press room.

I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure
was Inspector Sawyer--but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't
say for sure--saying we think we have located the building where the
shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.

At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain
that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets.
The captain said, "Go ahead and go."

And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told
him to get on down there.

I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and
saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he
was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular."

And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street."

"The President has been shot."

We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named
Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the
basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told
him the President was shot.

And he said, "Where are you going?"

And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came
from."

And he said, "Could I go with you?"

So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what
the number was.

We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left,
went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as
Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson
Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the
right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston,
jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.

I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building
properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."

And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"

And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."

About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from
homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service
bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy
sheriffs came up.

Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on
the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I
said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?

Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us
as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.

So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they
would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of
us to go to the top floor and work down.

We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the
elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to
seven and shook it down.

At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed
officer up there.

Mr. BELIN. You went to the top floor of the building?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up,
or did you climb?

Mr. HILL. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost
sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the
elevator went no further?

Mr. HILL. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost
positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't
particularly take notice.

But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of
flights because the elevator didn't go all the way.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you take this elevator?

Mr. HILL. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned
to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight
elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You took a passenger elevator?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and
if this was on the fifth, we walked through--there is a little office
section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large
room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway
would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder
leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used
mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up
it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor,
and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from
there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and
I went down to sixth.

I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here
it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been
stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the
window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were
stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what
side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It
would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building
facing south.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or
the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to
the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short
time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was,
because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a
three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody
specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a
sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of
this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were
two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for
concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which
appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I
wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended,
it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches
thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the
south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of
the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner,
were three spent shells.

This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At
this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let
anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another
window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled
down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or
not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, I asked
the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure
that the crime lab was en route.

When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator
moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch
the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were
coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out
the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure
the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab
was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the
area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth
floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene
so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All
right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector
Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building
across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and
Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay
any attention.

I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt.
C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that
day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what we
wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?

Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could
have been 19.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.

Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant
District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been
standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the
police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember
right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the
400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the
voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.

At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this
would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location
from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible
suspect in the assassination.

With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160
pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of
bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we
have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that
detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go
with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer
had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also.

In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at
this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding
with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had
actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there.

We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to
go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we
passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a
police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital.

We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car
parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool
of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.

Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he
said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160
to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown
bushy hair."

At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad
105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe,
and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez.

I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many
witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to
start checking the area.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember
the name of the person that gave you the description?

Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.

Mr. BELIN. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any
kind?

Mr. HILL. No; they had not. This came much later.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead if you would, please.

Mr. HILL. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came
up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over
into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking
lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--and taken off his jacket.

Mr. BELIN. You turned this man over to Poe, too?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer
Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32
p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I
believe? Your radio home station?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that
saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson,
behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here."
"Several squads check out." Was that you?

Mr. HILL. That was Owens.

Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all?

Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens.

Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time?

Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. HILL. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went
around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the
first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred,
and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on
Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the
north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand
furniture.

By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man
running towards these houses.

At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was
there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident
investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple
more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front
door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest
to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody
was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or
outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.

Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been
the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked,
both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on
this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and
I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit.

And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got
back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his
car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to
me with a Winston cigarette package.

Mr. BELIN. Who was this?

Mr. HILL. This was Poe.

Mr. BELIN. You went back to the Tippit scene?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?

Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that
contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had
pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped
these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put
them in the Winston package.

I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for
him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for
evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there,
or to homicide.

The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to
a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street
in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go
in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees
inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen
anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible
places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them,
nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the
doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to.

An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that
time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call
came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HILL. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a
right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as
close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two
or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the
back.

They said, "We got the building completely covered off."

I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the
theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard
the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over
the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony.

We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been
also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling
to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe
just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the
balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and
here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man.

There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and
none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of
the man that shot Tippit.

I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and
stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the
ground. He said, "Did you find anything?"

And I said, "Not up here."

He said, "Have you checked the roof?"

There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the
top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for
you." And he started up it.

The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't
overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him
in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the
west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to
the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which
came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the
lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west
door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is
that correct?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed
north, and then you had to turn to the right?

Mr. HILL. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come
down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down
the north stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you
go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are
facing the screen, you are facing roughly east?

Mr. HILL. Right side of the theatre would have been south.

Mr. BELIN. South as you face the screen. All right, now.

Mr. HILL. So I went through the north lower door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have
been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the
back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling
with a white male.

I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before
I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."

I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately
behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side
of the suspect from me in the same aisle.

Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front
of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and
down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't
recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then
Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both
in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various
intervals while all this was going on.

We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him
and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him."
And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel,
didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he
said, "Yes."

And I said, "Let's get them."

And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were working in plainclothes?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any hat on?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I did have a hat.

Mr. BELIN. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition
Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when
we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre.
That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or
right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize any people in there?

Mr. HILL. This would have been the suspect [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the
profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or
lower than the others?

Mr. HILL. Lower than the other people in the picture.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right.

Mr. HILL. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the
suspect?

Mr. HILL. That is Detective Paul Bentley.

Mr. BELIN. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears
to have his hands----

Mr. HILL. That would be C. T. Walker.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is another person that is in the extreme
left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is?

Mr. HILL. Capt. W. R. Westbrook.

Mr. BELIN. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is?

Mr. HILL. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. That is to the left?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is
that anything you can recognize?

Mr. HILL. Not from that; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, sir.

You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect?

Mr. HILL. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later
in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI
agent----

Mr. BELIN. Would it be Barrett?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his first name?

Mr. HILL. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain
Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire
exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came
over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of
there as soon as possible.

And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to
stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the
actual scene where the arrest was made.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent
happened to be there at the time?

Mr. HILL. I heard later, and--but not actually to my own knowledge,
that he was riding with Captain Westbrook.

To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out
from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the
incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly
before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would
have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to
the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the
north section of the theatre.

And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in
front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons
was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear.

I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side.

Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side.

At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any
newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a
man shooting movies.

Mr. BELIN. Movies?

Mr. HILL. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a
short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about
him.

We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a
minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west
door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the
officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where
nobody got to us or to the suspect.

But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We
ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on.

Mr. BELIN. Any other calls from the crowd?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion,
but we kept moving.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you
were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process
of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell
something along the effect, "I've got him."

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements?

First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement
of any kind?

Mr. HILL. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically
recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for
a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put
it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it."

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no.

As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if
we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in
the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald
or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will
keep on calling him the suspect, started making statements about "I
want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you
doing this to me."

As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing
the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling
words similar to, "Typical police brutality."

And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there
to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and
commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until
we got in the car.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me stop there before you testify about
getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement
prior to getting into the car?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying
to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?"

Mr. HILL. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. HILL. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that
Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click.

Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward,
off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the
position, was probably the second officer to him.

In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and
then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that
order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him
from using the gun.

Mr. BELIN. What did you reply to this question?

Mr. HILL. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the
interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the
scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that
you would hear it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hit the suspect at all?

Mr. HILL. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else hit the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a
small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise
on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick,
to see this done, I did not see.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as
"Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a--you want----

Mr. BELIN. Let's stop there before we get in the car.

Mr. HILL. There were some statements made in the car similar to this,
in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time
in the theatre or from the theatre to the car.

Mr. BELIN. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you
hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle?

Mr. HILL. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or
"Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him."

But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called
anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a
police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did
not hear any.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer?

Mr. HILL. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly
about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I
didn't actually identify any direct blows.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left
arm flailing?

Mr. HILL. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free
himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually
hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his
hand, I did not.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition
Exhibit B." State if you know what this is.

Mr. HILL. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the
theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the
aisle that divided the two sections.

Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I
don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize anything?

Mr. HILL. There are three people in this picture that I recognize.
The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground
looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker.
The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a
T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face
practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to
us as Lee Harvey Oswald.

And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth
is Detective Paul Bentley.

There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is
apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and
his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to
admit I think it is me.

And there is a faint image there, if you get the light--that is what I
am trying to see--very faintly--if we had a--yes, that is going to be
me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. If you hold it a little bit to your right?

Mr. HILL. Yes; that is going to be me.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the
extreme left of the person with the helmet?

Mr. HILL. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to
identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L.
E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, sergeant.

By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the
picture.

Do you remember what else he had on?

Mr. HILL. He had on a dark--I don't recall it being a solid
brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark
trousers. This I specifically remember.

Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HILL. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking
lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't
recall actually seeing this jacket.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the
time you got to the car?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as
we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out
things.

If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him.

And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I
will ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. HILL. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and
it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with
the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. HILL. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked
right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police
Car No. 151, which appears in the picture?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as
you remember it?

Mr. HILL. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each
side of the theatre entrance.

Mr. BELIN. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out?

Mr. HILL. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to
the car was open at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Who opened it?

Mr. HILL. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been
left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us
entered.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led
the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people
there?

Mr. HILL. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to
contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we
came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved
between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was
probably about 200.

Mr. BELIN. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car
that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember
now?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time
you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the
suspect in the car.

Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door
of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T.
Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right
rear.

Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat
on that side.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley,
Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?

Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from
the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.

Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove
the vehicle.

Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which
he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the
theatre.

Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you?

Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"

Mr. BELIN. When did he do that?

Mr. HILL. As soon as he handed it to me.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. HILL. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his
belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already
in the car and seated.

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission
Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2"
barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been
blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?

Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't
recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is
the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.

Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will
identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you
describe it any more fully?

Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun
in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last
name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.

Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there?

Mr. HILL. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?

Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of
Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police
department.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched
your name on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?

Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

Mr. BELIN. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143,
is that correct?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is what it says.

Mr. BELIN. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or
something "C15" on it, too, is that right?

Mr. HILL. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that
is.

Mr. BELIN. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in
the car, he handed this gun to you?

Mr. HILL. Right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was
said and what was done?

Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained
and how many live rounds it had in it.

Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?

Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an
indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There
were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.

All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape
on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half
inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue
on the jacket of the shell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those?

Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them.

Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on
the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the
initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a
dash behind it.

Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is
the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the
H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my
presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third
floor.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that
was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was
taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.

Mr. BELIN. When was it removed?

Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until
we arrived at the station.

Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun?

Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your
initials?

Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed
them.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?

Mr. HILL. That is a live round.

Mr. BELIN. For what caliber?

Mr. HILL. A .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked
Q-177.

Mr. HILL. That appears to be Q-177.

It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH
running together, the initials CK on it also.

It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is
a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name
H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit
145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I
identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.

Was this also something that you took out?

Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I
believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that
identification.

I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.

I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?

Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to
be Q-79.

It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's
near the identification number that are legible.

And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is
apparently on some of the others.

Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that?

Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the
shell.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that?

Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored
coating on the lead inside the bullet.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78.

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification
mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the
shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with
which I marked it.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80.

Mr. HILL. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification
number Q-80.

The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one.
Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on
it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?

Mr. HILL. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81,
with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.

On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on
this shell by me.

This is a .38 lead slug.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs
were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?

What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?

Mr. HILL. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately
previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as
Commission Exhibit 143, by me.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun
was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this
gun was in your possession?

Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time
it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were
marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were
marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the
homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that
they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at
this point.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.

You stated that this gun was handed to you by----

Mr. HILL. Detective Bob Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

After he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what
happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you
can, what happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner
where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one
block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this
point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard,
and turned left onto Zangs.

Within, I would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the
car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which
No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I
knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he
got on the radio.

I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and
weapon and are en route to the station."

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer
Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and
I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation,
"Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the
station." Was that----

Mr. HILL. Well, that would have generally been--that would have been----

Mr. BELIN. Would have been you?

Mr. HILL. That would have been me.

Mr. BELIN. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the
No. 2 on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently
they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this
point----

Mr. BELIN. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is,
"Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on
the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying
that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have
been possibly right.

Mr. BELIN. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."

And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."

Did you say that?

Mr. HILL. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question
did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?

Mr. BELIN. That is 531-550-2?

Mr. HILL. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the
theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Then it goes to 550.

Mr. HILL. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre
after a fight." And then 531-2-3.

Mr. HILL. That would have been the dispatcher talking to----

Mr. BELIN. Someone?

Mr. HILL. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. BELIN. Two and three?

Mr. HILL. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305,
which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.

And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we
had 223, who was Walker--that is Walker's call number, and 492, which
was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.

And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick
up 223 car and take it back.

Mr. BELIN. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you
advised who was in the car?

Mr. HILL. With us en route to the station.

Mr. BELIN. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was
at 1:52 p.m.?

Mr HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice
that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time,
or not, at 1:40 p.m.?

Would that have been someone else?

Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer.

Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?

Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using
the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really,
but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I
didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of
the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

Mr. BELIN. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the
time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in
the car?

Mr. HILL. The suspect was asked what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived?

Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and
he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul
Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand
he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said,
"Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee
Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this
identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification
in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name
that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is
what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it
written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address?

Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification.

One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near
as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly
conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an
address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to
the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the
second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?

Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you
got to the station?

Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the
identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two
different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to
have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually
is."

After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his
billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are
treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in
a movie."

Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you
have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."

And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that,"
or something to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Something to what effect?

Mr. HILL. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for
that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact
words of it, I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; then what was said?

Mr. HILL. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior
to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions
were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did
he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the
handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again
he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was
carrying a pistol in a movie."

We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without
using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot
we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--I did,
before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some
reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when
we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in
a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he
did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.

He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the
basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get
organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the
station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have
been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed
a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the
suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.

And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be
ashamed of."

And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and
walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper,
put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back
behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.

Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.

Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and
robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the
homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he
was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never
relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was
Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold
on to it until later."

I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want
us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the
offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way
when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose,
came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go
get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and
I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man
named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was
employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a
roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that
effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery
bureau, to Captain Fritz.

Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had
received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that
an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that
Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while
effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel
basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was
further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try
to organize the first report on the arrest.

I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect
while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer
J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the
office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This
is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the
Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and
had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out
pro-Castro literature.

This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand
myself. And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I
change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in
the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D.
Tippit, which I did.

I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my
signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over
in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and
recap the events.

By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he
could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the
suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original
arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to
finish the report.

When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there,
and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a
paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that
it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.

Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.

And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a
paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also
that the FBI agent was there.

Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. BELIN. Were they there at the time?

Mr. HILL. They were there. They got there inside where we were about
the time he was being handcuffed.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me go back a minute now.

You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In what office was he left?

Mr. HILL. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the
homicide and robbery bureau office.

Mr. BELIN. Who was in there with him when you left?

Mr. HILL. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander
of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the
officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau
and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.

However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the
interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?

Mr. HILL. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small
hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to
pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain
Fritz immediately in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?

Mr. HILL. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide,
Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.

Mr. BELIN. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was
Fritz'?

Mr. HILL. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any
address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement
of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in
Irving?

Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall,
in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from
information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these
addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.

As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the
identification.

Mr. BELIN. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?

Mr. HILL. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in
which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any
Beckley Street address for the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought
into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz
there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. What else did the suspect say, if anything?

Mr. HILL. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the
theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why
are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a
gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is
carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing
an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry
for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.

He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make
boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in
the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and
the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He
was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he
made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he
didn't have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. BELIN. When the comment was made about frying, did any police
officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or
something like that?

Do you remember anything like that being said?

Mr. HILL. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to
the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance
to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I
don't recall who said it.

But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well,
I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?

Did you hear him say anything like that?

Mr. HILL. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made,
because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on
in the car.

At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car,
and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an
indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we
made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was
in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the
gun click.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall of specific detail.

There was quite a bit of excitement.

Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing,
and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't
recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the
car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't
have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?

Mr. HILL. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance,
but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little.
This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind,
was how quiet he did keep.

His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had
committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer
questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not
unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he
is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can
do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said
he wanted his attorney.

Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre?

Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his
rights.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to
the police station?

Mr. HILL. I do not recall.

I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is
possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was
keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't
prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the
police station.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and
once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him
walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the
day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the
time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that
he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were
you with the suspect at all times?

Mr. HILL. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the
doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never
closed.

Mr. BELIN. The door was never closed?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the
man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the
doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and
what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if
he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide,
or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab.
We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.

Mr. BELIN. How far was the suspect from you at this time?

Mr. HILL. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2
more feet to the door.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would that be?

Mr. HILL. About 6 feet.

Mr. BELIN. How close was the other officer to you?

Mr. HILL. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was
probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the
statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.

Mr. BELIN. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he
was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz,
would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?

Mr. HILL. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible
that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it,
but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was
anything else that he could have said except for during that period,
would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North
Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over
to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker
and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I
am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North
Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly
hearsay, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7
or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He
came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure
that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the
details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in
into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made,
how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and
decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and
round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it
was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it,
and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed,
and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after
McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to
the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest
of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of
coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with
Oswald in the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had
with the prisoner?

Mr. HILL. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald
as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in
the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that
I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality
and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the
basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted
to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report,
so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have
taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.

Mr. BELIN. Over what period of time span would that have been that he
was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway
there?

Mr. HILL. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I
believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his
address and he refused, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not
going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally
answered that question, did he?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of
Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have
any other report that you made at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made
from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday
morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from that, anything?

Mr. HILL. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact
that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another
report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of
the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one
report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the
only one I wrote on the actual arrest.

Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.

Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?

Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.

[Handing to witness.]

Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual
officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.

Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what?

Mr. HILL. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed
by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with
me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all
three signatures on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination
investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I was off that day.

And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning
on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and
captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board
meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the
International Building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around
11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the
shooting of Oswald?

Mr. HILL. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I
was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get
his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a
while. In the interim, I had been on--normally when I was on a rotating
schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was
located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in
there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about
2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't
been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each
other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was
working in personnel.

And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am
staying home."

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?

Mr. HILL. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3
or 4 weeks before this.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police
department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you
during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the
rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November
22?

What did you find when you got there?

Mr. HILL. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the
basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the
doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.

If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.

Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the
elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and
took pictures of us going to homicide.

We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into
the homicide office.

At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood
from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by
name.

But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in
until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of
the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and
floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on
tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything
else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open
as much as possible.

And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward
homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your
way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to
get through there.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition
that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter,
and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member
of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the
police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other
types of news also.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear
the hall or clear the floor at all?

Mr. HILL. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been
made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got
there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I
don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among
the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might
embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?

Mr. HILL. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing
that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press
releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.

I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do
what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when
they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a
formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions
they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.

There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work
in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn,
it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.

But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the
press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask
somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or
not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing
at that time what they were asked to do.

What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather
crowded, I will make that statement.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you
previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you
to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you
talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.

What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or
was one that you found difficult to see?

Mr. HILL. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.

However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and
they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a
dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that
had been handled a few times.

Mr. BELIN. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80"
and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw----

Mr. HILL. Q-80 would be the one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a
couple of days ago, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Friday afternoon?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon,
is that correct?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight,
that was canceled?

Mr. HILL. That left.

Mr. BELIN. I left at 5:30--and now it is past 7 o'clock--and I told you
I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.

At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas
of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we
had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you
described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general
terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we
go into any details at that time?

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this.

You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack,
supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could
have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that
time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack,
and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book
Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was
there, I didn't see it.

Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I
don't recall what statement it was.

But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall
hearing that. I don't remember what it was.

Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at
that time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to
the stress of time.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in
from the Texas Theatre?

Mr. HILL. As to any other possible weapon?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; or ammunition?

Mr. HILL. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and
being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone
else searching him after he was placed under arrest.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I
have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of
inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the
investigation of the Tippit murder?

Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at
this time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your
splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police
department here, and you particularly.

You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of
mine was canceled.

Mr. HILL. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the
typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can
waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your
reading.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. HILL. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and
sign it?

If you will just let me know when, I will be here.

Mr. BELIN. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very
much.

Mr. HILL. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.



TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE

The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Would you stand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. POE. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. POE. 1716 Cascade Street.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. POE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. All right, what is your rank in the department?

Mr. POE. Patrolman.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the department?

Mr. POE. Nine years and one month.

Mr. BALL. And where were you born?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. POE. Graduated from high school.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. Then went into the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. POE. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.

Mr. BALL. How long did you do that work?

Mr. POE. About 2 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out
of the Service.

Mr. BALL. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction
worker?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I joined the police force.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police force?

Mr. POE. Patrol work.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a radio car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time of day?

Mr. POE. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone?

Mr. POE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. POE. L. E. Jez.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s.

Mr. POE. No; it is J-e-z.

Mr. BALL. What district do you patrol?

Mr. POE. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106.

Mr. BALL. Where are they located?

Mr. POE. In the western end of the downtown section.

Mr. BALL. You were a downtown patrolman?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the
radio? The fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. POE. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal
19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston
Streets.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Were you told to go some place?

Mr. POE. We reported the scene; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Mr. POE. To Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. When--what did you do there?

Mr. POE. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd.

Mr. BALL. Then you went where?

Mr. POE. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. POE. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as
part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and
heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and--because he didn't
know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out
there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it
to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East
Ninth, the last time, and we went out there.

Mr. BALL. You went there?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did you find when you got there?

Mr. POE. We found----

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. POE. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of
blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already
picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We
had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200
people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got
a description of the man that shot Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. POE. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and
I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the
scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much
traffic on the radio, and the last--the direction he was seen leaving,
and then I talked to several more witnesses around there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio?

Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. BALL. And what happened after that?

Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name.
Dominique, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides?

Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the
man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading
his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.

Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?

Mr. POE. A man, white man.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run.

Mr. BALL. And what did he say?

Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up.

Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls?

Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls?

Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from
the crime lab?

Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't
swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any people there?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. POE. Talked to Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the two Davis girls?

Mr. POE. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two
Davis girls.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene
did?

Mr. POE. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Leavelle?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the
Davis girls hand you anything?

Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as
Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about
145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket.

Mr. BALL. There is a--off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was Walker there at the scene?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. POE. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on
that.

Mr. BALL. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it
says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about
the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair,
slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks."

Do you know whether you gave Walker that description?

Mr. POE. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the
car with Walker.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Walker a description similar to that?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, the only difference I see between the description you
said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in
his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same.

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who told you he had on a white jacket?

Mr. POE. Mrs. Markham told me first.

Mr. BALL. She did?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she
was--looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much
as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her.

Mr. BALL. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given
to you?

Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.

Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?

Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges.

Mr. BALL. To the crime lab?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI
lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any
identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls
given to you by Benavides?

Mr. POE. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?

Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these?

Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear
to it, I couldn't make them out any more.

Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it
is these two? Q-77 and Q-75?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there.

Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western
Special. How long did you stay there?

Mr. POE. At the scene?

Mr. BALL. Uh-huh.

Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime
lab got there.

Mr. BALL. Then you left?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.

Mr. BALL. Were you at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him apprehended?

Mr. POE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You were out?

Mr. POE. At the back.

Mr. BALL. At the back?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Poe.

This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and
you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. POE. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the
truth.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to give your signature?

Mr. POE. I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up
here and sign it.

Mr. POE. All right.



TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON

The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of
the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. GIBSON. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. GIBSON. John Gibson.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. GIBSON. I am manager of a retail store.

Mr. BALL. What kind of retail store is that?

Mr. GIBSON. It's Elko Camera store.

Mr. BALL. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store?

Mr. GIBSON. 239 West Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Near the Texas Theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson?

Mr. GIBSON. I was born in Brashear, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GIBSON. Woodrow Wilson High School.

Mr. BALL. Here in Dallas?

Mr. GIBSON. In Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Well, what have you done since you got out of school?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the
Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for
Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland,
and then went to work for Elko.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. GIBSON. It was at 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Do you go to the picture show very often--that particular
theatre--the Texas Theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Like I said--that's on Friday and that is depending on
business.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday?

Mr. GIBSON. About 1 o'clock--the same time I always go to lunch.

Mr. BALL. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. GIBSON. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far
right-hand side.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you always sit?

Mr. GIBSON. That's where I always sit--that's my chair.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have
marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look
like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of
the time--that looks like it.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is that seat with reference to the picture?

Mr. GIBSON. Further to the left--from the main seating in the very
back--it would be just past him.

Mr. BALL. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the
center aisle?

Mr. GIBSON. Right, and I would be--to his right.

Mr. BALL. In the same row?

Mr. GIBSON. In the same row.

Mr. BALL. To his right facing the screen?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And on the other aisle, is that correct?

Mr. GIBSON. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in
the theatre before the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before,
I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and
started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that
works these lights--if something was wrong--I thought maybe they had a
fire.

Mr. BALL. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into
the lobby?

Mr. GIBSON. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door
there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me
was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody
in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood
around out in the lobby for--I don't know--a minute or something, I
guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre
just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say
there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest
of them were going upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on
and then the policeman started down the aisle--I would say there was
another--I don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles.

Mr. BALL. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Toward the screen--I don't know if they were going down all
of them or not. I don't believe there was any--there was one policeman
standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the
far aisle--just behind me--I don't think there was anybody going down
the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Mr. BALL. What aisles did you see policemen going down?

Mr. GIBSON. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center
aisles, and then the next thing was--Oswald was standing in the aisle
with a gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. That's the next thing you saw?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody with him--near him?

Mr. GIBSON. I couldn't swear to that--I don't know--you mean other
policemen?

Mr. BALL. That's what I mean--was he in the aisles?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, he had this pistol in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Was anybody near him?

Mr. GIBSON. Just the officers.

Mr. BALL. What was the officer doing--did you say officers or police
officer?

Mr. GIBSON. Officers.

Mr. BALL. Plural, officers?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; there were more than one.

Mr. BALL. What were they doing?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, they were going toward him.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ahold of him at the time?

Mr. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which one--can you describe where he was and what he
did--just tell us in your own words what you saw him do?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, just like--I guess you have heard this a lot of
times--the gun misfired--it clicked and about the same time there was
one police officer that positively had him.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean--"had him"?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him.

Mr. BALL. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or
afterwards?

Mr. GIBSON. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer
because I would say possibly seconds before or a second--maybe at the
precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I
just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of
this.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer strike Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?

Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.]

Mr. BALL. You did not?

Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they
said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you
mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they
took him to the floor.

Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?

Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but
I was looking at an angle.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?

Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. GIBSON. I didn't see anything happen--I walked back to the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out.

Mr. BALL. Describe what you saw at that time--I want to know how they
had ahold of him?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said,
he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the
lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out
into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so
I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch,
came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other
end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up
and then they brought Oswald through the door--there was two police
officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind
him--like so [indicating].

Mr. BALL. And did the officer have his arm around his neck?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't know--I don't think so--he did have a black eye and
his shirt was about halfway torn off of him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. GIBSON. He said, "I protest police brutality."

Mr. BALL. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were
struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the
butt of a shotgun?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who
were struggling with Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the
theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Oh--yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was
struggling with these other officers?

Mr. GIBSON. Gee, I don't know--that, I couldn't say--because like I
say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could--or I should say
down--I turned around and went back to the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the
theatre?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me--the
first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights
came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't
definitely say I saw them talking to anybody.

Mr. BALL. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your
name and address?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else?

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car
and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store.

Mr. BALL. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him--I believe
they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told
me--Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went
upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I
don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently,
as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small
majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there.

Mr. BALL. Did they pass you on their way?

Mr. GIBSON. You mean up the stairs?

Mr. BALL. No; the smaller party that was downstairs.

Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall.

Mr. BALL. And they were in an aisle over there?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over--there's
two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs
down the wall.

Mr. BALL. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that
they went?

Mr. GIBSON. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact--this is what a
lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the
stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know,
because as I said, when they took him to the floor, then I turned
around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock
the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons
of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald?

Mr. GIBSON. No.

Mr. BALL. As they went along--they finally walked up and outside?

Mr. GIBSON. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald
was?

Mr. GIBSON. Gosh--I don't know--it's hard to remember, when you try.

Mr. BALL. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, as I said--I don't think they went up to him. As I
said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he
was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me
that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but
this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay.

Mr. BALL. But would you think he stood up first before any police
officer got to him? Or that near him?

Mr. GIBSON. He had to, because they took him from a standing position
to the floor and he was standing up.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them before they came up to him?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the
corner--as I said, just looking around the corner--there is a chance
you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said,
I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but
when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. The first you saw him he was standing?

Mr. GIBSON. He was standing.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out?

Mr. GIBSON. Except on his way out--is the only thing I heard him say.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if
you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do?

Mr. GIBSON. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it.

Mr. GIBSON. Thanks very much.

Mr. BALL. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM

The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff
of the President's Commission.


Mr. ELY. Would you stand up and be sworn, please?

Mr. PUTNAM. All right.

Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. PUTNAM. I do.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. PUTNAM. James Putnam.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. PUTNAM. Police officer--sergeant of police.

Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PUTNAM. Ten years and four months.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of your background before you
started to work for the police department--where you went to school
and what you did before you became a policeman?

Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent?

Mr. ELY. Where did you go to school?

Mr. PUTNAM. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it,
I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was
in the Navy for about 7 years.

Mr. ELY. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department?

Mr. PUTNAM. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here
in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from
which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released,
I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for
employment with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. ELY. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on
duty with the police department?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the
investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your involvement with that
investigation?

Mr. PUTNAM. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building
and aiding in searching the building.

Mr. ELY. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of
the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. PUTNAM. No.

Mr. ELY. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police
department? What sort of work do you specialize in?

Mr. PUTNAM. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police,
supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for
identification.)

Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated
Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents
designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts
of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have
no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day,
assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on
the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit
1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and
Eighth Street is?

Mr. PUTNAM. District 109.

Mr. ELY. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer
Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to
531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th?

Mr. PUTNAM. Yes; there is.

Mr. ELY. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to
the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54
he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later
was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio
logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which
would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center
of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to
draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police
Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district.

Mr. PUTNAM. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the
normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on
Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the
downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being
assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in
the Dallas Police Department--he would start in the direction of the
downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and
that vicinity.

Mr. ELY. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route?

Mr. PUTNAM. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this
corner--Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes
you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be
the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in
toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission
on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at
large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would
feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind
that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance
that might be related to the shooting.

Mr. ELY. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff
area?

Mr. PUTNAM. They are located in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. ELY. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all.



TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April
9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of
the staff of the President's Commission.


Mr. ELY. Would you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PIERCE. I do.

Mr. ELY. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's
Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you
might have information which would help us in this inquiry.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. PIERCE. Rio Sam Pierce.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us what your occupation is?

Mr. PIERCE. Officer--police officer.

Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold?

Mr. PIERCE. Lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PIERCE. That's right.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us something about what you did before you
started to work for the police department?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged
in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine
Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe
it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you
specialize in with the police department?

Mr. PIERCE. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of
the central station.

Mr. ELY. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. PIERCE. I was not.

Mr. ELY. Were you in Dallas on that date?

Mr. PIERCE. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning
and returned to Dallas about--oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m.

Mr. ELY. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the
killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir.

Mr. ELY. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam
Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits
A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs
for November 22, 1963.

If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to
patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you
explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer
Tippit would be in the district marked 109--specifically at the corner
of Lancaster and Eighth--at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have
proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and
killed?

Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls
which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at
your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district
78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have
alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town,
at 12:43--I believe this occurred on channel 1--this was taken from
channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of
downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution."

Mr. ELY. Explain what code 3 means.

Mr. PIERCE. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have
code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In
other words, code 3 is your top--proceed with haste and caution. The
transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect
in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white
male," and gives the description here--would also be an indication to
the squads, and reading this--and I assume that this is the way it
came out--a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't
told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that
any normal police officer would assume that there had been something
pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him
working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area
to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you
stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster--it doesn't show here on
your map, but you have no viaduct--that's about the only place you can
cross that river, unless you want to wade.

Mr. ELY. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that
viaduct would be?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown
area--it also crosses this river and comes on out--may or may not be
nearly correct--it isn't too far from wrong--I don't think so--there is
two viaducts.

Mr. ELY. The red mark you have just drawn is what?

Mr. PIERCE. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the
area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this--Lancaster
Street comes in something like that--it isn't marked on here.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Mr. PIERCE. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct.
Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have
quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In
other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there.
That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in
getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to
assist from the downtown area there.

Mr. ELY. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at
12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only
to all squads in the downtown area?

Mr. PIERCE. That's right.

Mr. ELY. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not
located in the downtown area to react?

Mr. PIERCE. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police
Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads
stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not
require that they stay in their district.

Mr. ELY. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior?

Mr. PIERCE. It looks like a normal procedure to me.

Mr. ELY. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want
to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about
covers it?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have
to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection
with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested
in, that would not be unusual.

Mr. ELY. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much.

Mr. PIERCE. All right, thank you.



TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS

The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of
the staff of the President's Commission.


Mr. ELY. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. OWENS. I do.

Mr. ELY. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's
Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding
the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe
that you might be able to give us some information which would help us.

Mr. OWENS. All right.

Mr. ELY. Could you state your full name, please?

Mr. OWENS. Calvin Bud Owens.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. OWENS. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e.

Mr. ELY. In Dallas?

Mr. OWENS. That's right.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. OWENS. I am a police officer.

Mr. ELY. And what rank do you hold in the police department?

Mr. OWENS. Sergeant.

Mr. ELY. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. OWENS. Twenty-three and a half years.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you
went with the department?

Mr. OWENS. How far back?

Mr. ELY. Starting with your schooling, let's say.

Mr. OWENS. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill
[spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla.,
and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and
then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated
from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I
got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel
as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately
a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there
2-1/2 years, and then went to work for the public works department in
construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was
in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months
in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October
1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went
in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police
department.

Mr. ELY. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. OWENS. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OWENS. I was.

Mr. ELY. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date?

Mr. OWENS. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation.

Mr. ELY. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff
substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your
supervision?

Mr. OWENS. That's true.

Mr. ELY. When and how did you first hear that there had been an
incident involving the President of the United States?

Mr. OWENS. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the
substation--channel 1 was not working properly--some mike--or some
radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I
switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say,
"It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he
had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where
they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the
dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They
were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that
there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been
shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and
proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3.

Mr. ELY. And what does code 3 mean?

Mr. OWENS. It means emergency with red lights and siren on.

Mr. ELY. Thank you.

Mr. OWENS. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of
the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was
dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored
man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close,
I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and
take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I
had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they
had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman
there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office.
I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a
shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall the name of this colored man?

Mr. OWENS. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff
and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I
proceeded--I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander,
an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we
started out to--I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East
Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was
corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.

Now, right there--here's where I'm not quite sure--I don't know whether
I was given the gun and all--but I believe I was given the gun and this
was Tippit's gun and shells.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall who gave them to you?

Mr. OWENS. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.

Mr. ELY. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?

Mr. OWENS. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper
envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.

Mr. ELY. Did you make any identifying marks on them?

Mr. OWENS. No; they were his city issued--his own gun.

Mr. ELY. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?

Mr. OWENS. No; I believe it was Barton--I'm not sure. I couldn't say
positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In
fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have
taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property
room--I don't know.

Mr. ELY. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you
the gun, and let's go on from there.

Mr. OWENS. Yes--we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the
suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward
Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not
sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we
blocked off that square block.

Mr. ELY. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off?

Mr. OWENS. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson--the 400
or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and
Denver--I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the
buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as
businesses.

Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you
just look through the halls?

Mr. OWENS. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and
the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard
over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be
a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the
description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the
corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away.
Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the
library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought
was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not
the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that
heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was
running over there to tell them that the President got shot.

Mr. ELY. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the
library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the
library?

Mr. OWENS. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into
the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the
shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men
yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone
left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the
crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to
the Texas Theatre.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there?

Mr. OWENS. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling]
D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the
scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been
taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just
a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his
right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes.
Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and
another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which
temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether
he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a
time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was
assigned.

Mr. ELY. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation,
you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police
headquarters; is that correct?

Mr. OWENS. What, now?

Mr. ELY. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were
assigned to the Oak Cliff substation?

Mr. OWENS. No; that's right.

Mr. ELY. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition
Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is?

Mr. OWENS. It is what we call a district map of the various districts
of the city of Dallas.

Mr. ELY. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that
correct?

Mr. OWENS. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for
each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean,
the districts cover that.

Mr. ELY. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that
map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OWENS. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether
we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be
assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be
78.

Mr. ELY. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the
district?

Mr. OWENS. Oh, yes.

Mr. ELY. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated
"Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54
p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he
was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth?

Mr. OWENS. That's right.

Mr. ELY. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of
Lancaster and Eighth fall?

Mr. OWENS. In district 109.

Mr. ELY. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was
Officer Tippit shot?

Mr. OWENS. In district 91.

Mr. ELY. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer
Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district
109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your
answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which
are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your
experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure
for reacting to an emergency.

Mr. OWENS. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit
B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and
Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was
going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all
squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be
an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet
6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought
to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at
this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the
President--that was at 12:45----

Mr. ELY. And signal 19 means what?

Mr. OWENS. A shooting--anything of that magnitude in the shooting of
the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would
proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever
had done it.

Mr. ELY. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and
Houston itself, or would he just come in closer?

Mr. OWENS. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered
all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he
was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are
there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in,
and--instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down
there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in
the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance
of apprehending him.

Mr. ELY. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people
whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston?

Mr. OWENS. That's what I think--not only filling in, but also looking
for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general
description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he
could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon
as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can
apprehend him.

Mr. ELY. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in
district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head
downtown in any emergency?

Mr. OWENS. That's true.

Mr. ELY. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over
toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.

Mr. OWENS. According to this map--it doesn't show all the things on
there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you
wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct,
but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot
of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and
go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him
a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him
right to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would
be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which
you were patroling?

Mr. OWENS. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was
acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at
the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.

Mr. ELY. In which numbered area is that located?

Mr. OWENS. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I
heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then
I went.

Mr. ELY. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.

Mr. ELY. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there
either?

Mr. OWENS. That's right--that's true.

Mr. ELY. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told
us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which
numbered area on this map he was assigned to?

Mr. OWENS. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.

Mr. ELY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)

Mr. OWENS. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working,
but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same
sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the
same general area which covers these districts in here.

Mr. ELY. That would be districts 82 and 85?

Mr. OWENS. No--81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79--that's that
sergeant's district.

Mr. ELY. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.

Mr. OWENS. I don't know of anything else--as I say, I couldn't remember
where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my
wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked
her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she
has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling
a gun like that if it was the suspect's.

Mr. ELY. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.

Mr. OWENS. All right, thank you.



TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH

The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April
2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the
Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sit down.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith.

Mr. BALL. And where do you live?

Mr. SMITH. 328-1/2 East Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. SMITH. Twenty.

Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?

Mr. SMITH. My mother.

Mr. BALL. At this address?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and
where you went to school.

Mr. SMITH. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason
Chapel.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. SMITH. Three months into the 12th grade.

Mr. BALL. Three months into the 12th grade?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SMITH. Been working ever since, most of the time.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. Beg your pardon?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. That is where you are working now?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; working at a metal shop.

Mr. BALL. Any metal shop?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble did you get in?

Mr. SMITH. Auto theft.

Mr. BALL. You're on probation now, aren't you?

Mr. SMITH. Two years.

Mr. BALL. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?

Mr. SMITH. Tickets.

Mr. BALL. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?

Mr. SMITH. Two right now.

Mr. BALL. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Didn't have a job?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you spend the day that day?

Mr. SMITH. 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Why were you there?

Mr. SMITH. Visiting a friend.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. When did you go over there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the morning. In the morning.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the evening.

Mr. BALL. So, you spent the whole day there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day
that you noticed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?

Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?

Mr. SMITH. One block.

Mr. BALL. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were in the 500 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident?

Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots.

Mr. BALL. And what? You looked down that way?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was
running.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Saw the side of his face?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he ran in what direction?

Mr. SMITH. West.

Mr. BALL. Did you follow him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.

Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my
probation record.

Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with.

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. SMITH. James Markham.

Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I
a----

Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you?

Mr. SMITH. The FBI.

Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?

Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on
television----

Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.

Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television?

Mr. SMITH. Looked blond.

Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. SMITH. FBI agent.

Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. Brown.

Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the
appearance of the man in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.

Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it
looked anything like the man you had seen running away?

Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes.

Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these
shots?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house----

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?

Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants
and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat----

Mr. SMITH. This looks like it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket.
Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.

Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up
and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want
to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send
it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mr. SMITH. Ever what that means.

Mr. BALL. That means you don't have to sign it.

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and
sign it.

I thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.

The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m.,
on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right hand
to be sworn, please.

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. APPLIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the
record.

Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for
Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.

Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your
transportation?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I
will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your
expenses. You came in when? This morning?

Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in
here.

Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And----

Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car
stalled on me about three or four blocks over.

Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born
and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done
since then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived
there pretty near all my life.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.

Mr. BALL. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.

Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.

Mr. BALL. Your mother and father?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.

Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. Burglary.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. APPLIN. In 1963.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.

Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations.

Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing here?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell it?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in
my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].

Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Working.

Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and
painter and front-end loader.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day?

Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers,
and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.

Mr. BALL. For 2 days?

Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days.

Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to--I was over in Oak Cliff, around
about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I
was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car
listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.

Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Paid your way?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the
middle of the chairs.

Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of
seats?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought
about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that
showing of that picture that you remember?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.

Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it.

Mr. BALL. From your rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the
wall.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter
and what about the lights.

Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was
happened--happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down
and I stopped to find out.

Mr BALL. Did you ask him?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Towards you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the
front, asked them to stand up and----

Mr. BALL. Did he search them?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.

Mr. BALL. Did he search you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.

Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting?

Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.

Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting
about two or three seats.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. He--started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up,
please?" And he stood up.

Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard
the officer say, "Stand up"?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from
the back, rear.

Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition
here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows
down from me.

Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you
yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was----

Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer say?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."

Mr. BALL. What did the man say?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search
him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he
did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. With his left or right?

Mr. APPLIN. Right fist.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And
during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later,
there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and
ran down there to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four
or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came
into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who
pulled a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating]
and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was
pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this
way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald
to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about----

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had
on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to
the gun.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun
and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.

Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.

Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came
down?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.

Mr. BALL. How many of them?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. How did he do it?

Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and
swung and hit him in the back.

Mr. BALL. With what?

Mr. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess it was. You could--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where?

Mr. APPLIN. In the back.

Mr. BALL. What part of the back?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back,
somewheres.

Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you
saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Uhuh?

Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.

Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the
middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of
the aisle.

Mr. BALL. With the man?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through the
doors?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers
hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind
me.

Mr. BALL. In behind you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And went on out?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you go out and follow them out?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and
the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and
asked--there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and
said--that one boy said that he seen him, through the front--I mean out
from behind the picture where it came out--supposed to came out behind
the picture.

Mr. BALL. Did you give them your name there?

Mr. APPLIN. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the
time.

Mr. BALL. Later did you go down to the police station and make a
statement?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's
name. I rode down with three officers.

Mr. BALL. That same day, did you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go back to the picture show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back
out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in
time to.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get to see the show?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't see him after that.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your
deposition, didn't I?

Mr. APPLIN. I wasn't actually; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, I mean, you and I came up----

Mr. APPLIN. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And we sat and talked a few minutes?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you have told us everything that you told me before----

Mr. APPLIN. This was taken here?

Mr. BALL. Before it was taken.

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read
it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to
the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady
has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it.

Mr. BALL. You are waiving your signature then, are you?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I will sign it if you want me to.

Mr. BALL. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but
you may if you want to.

Mr. APPLIN. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble
with it, will you?

Mr. BALL. Well, no.

Mr. APPLIN. Well, then, I will sign it for you then.

Mr. BALL. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin.

Mr. APPLIN. But, there is one thing puzzling me.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. APPLIN. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case,
but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was
standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move.
There is a gun." And he says--just sat there. He was just back like
this. Just like this. Just watching.

Mr. BALL. Just watching the show?

Mr. APPLIN. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting
just like this, just looking at me.

Mr. BALL. Did you know the man?

Mr. APPLIN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever seen him since?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said,
"Buddy, you'd better move," and----

Mr. BALL. Were you scared?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen the gun I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police officer about this man?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did
tell--I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret
Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much.

Mr. APPLIN. All right.



TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS

The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. HAWKINS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. HAWKINS. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. BALL. And your address, where do you live now?

Mr. HAWKINS. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. HAWKINS. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident
investigator.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HAWKINS. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself--where you were born and
your education and what you have done?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the
Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served
3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office
after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power &
Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have
been in the traffic division 8 years last month, which my primary duty
is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in
the radio patrol division.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day.

Mr. BALL. And were you assigned some special duty because of the
presence of the President in the city?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is
my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer
Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving
him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation.

Mr. BALL. Do you work in uniform?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. In the regular patrolman's uniform?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--the regular patrolman uniform.

Mr. BALL. You drive an automobile?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Is it a marked police car?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--it is the blue and white marked police car.

Mr. BALL. And where were you around 1 o'clock?

Mr. HAWKINS. I'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the
time of the assassination--I was--we were on an accident in the 2500
block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard
anything about this accident.

Mr. BALL. You and your partner?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear the President had been killed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of
the approximate time that you heard that report?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.--I'm not sure
what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were
on an accident at the time--I cleared from the call about the time we
heard this information.

Mr. BALL. And you got that information over the police radio?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not. They called--I heard a citizen come
in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked
like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I
was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the
general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher,
stating that we were proceeding in that direction.

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general
vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come
out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate
vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton?

Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the
location.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and
in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they
had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and
then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call
that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at
which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten
into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three
of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.

Mr. BALL. Hutson is also a patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the
library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had
heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the
other employees there.

We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area
around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson.

We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the
Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park?

Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the
theatre.

Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?

Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door
at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker
and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at
this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he
identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and
that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the
suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre
and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or
four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south
side.

Mr. BALL. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen
about four rows from the rear of the theatre.

Mr. BALL. And how many seats over from the right aisle?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would say probably three or four--I don't remember
exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were
you?

Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could
see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned
on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer?

Mr. HAWKINS. The man whom I had been talking to?

Mr. BALL. Yes; the shoe salesman.

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did
identify himself and we did have his name.

Mr. BALL. Were you armed?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. With what?

Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver.

Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?

Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with it?

Mr. HAWKINS. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer
McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two
boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was
sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would
walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to
this person who was seated back there.

Mr. BALL. He was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he?

Mr. HAWKINS. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the
person's right. I was about three rows from--still in the same aisle,
on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I
heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that
effect.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. HAWKINS. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location.
Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and
Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the
front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs
out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around
as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with
both hands behind his back.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist?

Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist.

Mr. BALL. Which one?

Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist.

Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?

Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I
arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and
McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I
got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled
across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.

Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember,
Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he
took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?

Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know
whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure
it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it
was in the seats someone making the noise.

Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so--I don't think I could say for
sure.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I
said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed
Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the
gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and
Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left
hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the
scene.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some
officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had
one, but it is possible that they did have.

Mr. BALL. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald,
and you----

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who was the other man?

Mr. HAWKINS. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the
time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the
left hand.

Mr. BALL. Oswald's left?

Mr. HAWKINS. Oswald's left.

Mr. BALL. And who was on the right?

Mr. HAWKINS. McDonald.

Mr. BALL. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?

Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he
was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe
he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob
Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was
Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was
all happening pretty fast.

Mr. BALL. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald
have a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were
standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling
with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and
struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything
like that?

Mr. HAWKINS. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen.
I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was
standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure
that he did not have a gun.

Mr. BALL. Hutson did not have a shotgun?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle--I
do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights
and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he
made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or
something of this nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except
in the grabbing and holding of him--I know you grabbed him and held
him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow.

Mr. BALL. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. HAWKINS. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however,
after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of
his face.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. Not at the theatre; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the
theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. I was walking with the group--I was not immediately beside
Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer
Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those
three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed
him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left
and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car--I was
standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out.

Mr. BALL. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or
yelling?

Mr. HAWKINS. Was he?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember him saying anything except this about
that he had certain rights and the police brutality.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say
that in the theatre?

Mr. HAWKINS. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got
outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out
front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door.

Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought
Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside
him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm
around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you
see anything like that?

Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out--the best I
can remember--I was behind the group and there were at least three
officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was
behind him and walked up behind him--I don't recall anyone having him
around the neck at that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the
assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; the only thing I did following this--we went to
the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the
arrest, and that was the last thing I had done.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. HAWKINS. Did I see McDonald mark it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it
or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked
it.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody unload the gun?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded
whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four
men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the
station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that
we arrived at the station.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the bullets?

Mr. HAWKINS. I saw the bullets--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine them closely?

Mr. HAWKINS. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small
indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not
fire.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer.

Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you
can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would just as soon sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, we will have you sign it.

Mr. HAWKINS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. HAWKINS. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it?

Mr. BALL. We will give you a telephone call.

Mr. HAWKINS. You will give me a telephone call?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAWKINS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY

The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Be seated and state your name, please.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. L. D. Montgomery.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. You are called before the Commission to give such information
as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have
been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your
presence here?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been over here twice now already.

Mr. BALL. You have been here before?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I gave one deposition on this.

Mr. BALL. And that had to do with what subject?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, they covered about all of it, really.

Mr. BALL. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas
State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir; some of that was in there--yes, sir. Mr.
Griffin took it.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth
floor of the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in
that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition.

Mr. BALL. I had better ask you the questions now.

How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I have been on down there 9 years.

Mr. BALL. What is your job?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective in the homicide bureau.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4.

Mr. BALL. And to what work were you assigned?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, that particular morning at that time we was
trying to round up some hijackers.

Mr. BALL. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I got there, I guess--it was about 12:40 or 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do when you got there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I reported to the sixth floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and
I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the
building--over there from where the shooting took place.

Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or
afterwards?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.

Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; it hadn't.

Mr. BALL. The rifle was found after you got there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of
that sixth floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there
was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.

Mr. BALL. Was there a piece of chicken over there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it
looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right there with the boxes--right there on the
floor.

Mr. BALL. On the floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a
box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around
right there.

Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if
it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there--one of
those pictures might show exactly where it was.

Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure
if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.

Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there
where the shooting was.

Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--let's see--Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker
came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper
bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was
wrapped up in.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was over a little more to the west of that window.

Mr. BALL. There was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that Dr.
Pepper bottle?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was
sitting over there by itself.

Mr. BALL. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was right around where the boxes were--where the
hulls there were.

Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he
said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. BALL. Correct.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I was thinking it was right there--it was probably that
other sack I'm thinking about--the one we found on the floor there that
was used.

Mr. BALL. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the
Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper
bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I
shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Is this the sack right here, now?

Mr. BALL. That's right--do you remember that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don't remember the sack being right there--I remember
it was there somewhere, but exactly--I don't.

Mr. BALL. Evidently you don't know?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes--there would be some more chicken over here around
where the hulls were found.

Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you a picture of----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box
there.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some
boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in
there. There's some boxes coming along in there.

Mr. BALL. Coming along in there--you mean it's outside of the view of
the pictures?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.

Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten--on that picture
right there--I was just looking at.

Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of
paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.

Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long
piece of paper?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here.

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the
Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?

Mr. BALL. The paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?

Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You picked it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute--no; I didn't pick it up. I believe
Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check
it for prints.

Mr. BALL. Did you question any witnesses that day?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--that particular day--no, sir; I don't
believe I talked to a witness that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses at any time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not to the assassination--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the
shooting of Tippit?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we went out and got two of them and brought them
down.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see, there was a taxicab driver--Whaley--one of
them was Mr. Whaley and there was another one.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That could be his name--I just don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a report that you made of what you did?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn't take an affidavit from him--no, sir; I took
one from Mr. Whaley.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend a showup?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; I didn't attend any showups.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. BALL. But you took an affidavit from Mr. Whaley?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. From Mr. Whaley--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever present at any time when Oswald was questioned?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be the Sunday morning of the 24th, just
prior to transferring him.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That would be in Captain Fritz' office in the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Who was present, if you remember?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, there was Detective Leavelle, Detective Graves,
Detective Dhority, Captain Fritz, and Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Kelley.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what was said?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; they just asked him several questions there
as to why he shot the President and he said he didn't shoot the
President, and Captain Fritz asked Mr. Sorrels if he would like to ask
him a question and Mr. Sorrels would ask him one and then Mr. Kelley
would ask him one--they would ask him about life in Russia.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; that's about all the questions I recall.

Mr. BALL. Then, was Oswald handcuffed at that time, during the
questioning?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. At that time, I don't believe he was--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave with him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Did I leave with who--now?

Mr. BALL. Leave Fritz' office with him.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. When we started to transfer him, of course, we all went
down on the elevator with him.

Mr. BALL. He was handcuffed to whom?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BALL. And were you with the group that was taking him, transporting
him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have already testified, I guess, as to what happened
there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be reduced to writing and it
can be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive signature,
if you wish. Which do you prefer?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It doesn't make any difference to me.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I can waive it and save having to come back and sign it

Mr. BALL. That will be all right with you?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; that's fine.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming back.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You bet.



TESTIMONY OF MARVIN JOHNSON

The testimony of Marvin Johnson was taken at 4 p.m., on April 6, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name?

Mr. JOHNSON. Marvin Johnson.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Route 3, Box 279, Terrell, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Police officer.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. JOHNSON. Employed by the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through high school?

Mr. JOHNSON. I finished the eighth grade.

Mr. BELIN. You finished the eighth grade?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Went to work.

Mr. BELIN. By way of general background, what kind of work did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. I started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm.
And went from that to ice route. From there I went to work at North
American Aircraft, and then the Army.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go in the Army?

Mr. JOHNSON. Infantry.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1944. September 1944.

Mr. BELIN. Then you were discharged in 1946?

Mr. JOHNSON. February 1946; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Then I went back to Aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work in Aircraft?

Mr. JOHNSON. I worked there 11 months that time, and they had a layoff.
I got laid off, and I went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for
about 6 months. Well, one summer. Then that is when I went to Terrell
and went in the dairy business for myself.

Mr. BELIN. You went what?

Mr. JOHNSON. I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for
myself.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Then I had that 5 years, and then came here.

Mr. BELIN. So you have been with the Dallas Police Department since
what year?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1953.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Forty-three.

Mr. BELIN. What was your position with the Dallas Police Department in
November of 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still assigned to that bureau today?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As a detective?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At approximately what time did you find out about the
shooting of the President, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. JOHNSON. Must have been about 12:40, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you found out about it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Returned to the office.

Mr. BELIN. Returned to your office?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the
office at the time?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We had just made an arrest prior to checking out
on a hijacking.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a chance to eat that day or not? I mean lunch.

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; didn't eat lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you got back to the office. Then what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was instructed by Lieutenant Wells to go to the Texas
Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. To go to the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About what time did you get there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Around 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. When we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the
building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and
we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes.

And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor.

So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz
for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on
up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned
L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting
occurred.

Mr. BELIN. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this
was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an
area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which
the shooting occurred?

Mr. JOHNSON. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us
to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us
that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because
that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to
Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a
particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I had heard somebody already say. I had already
seen them.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the No. 3, is that how many there were?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this
was?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a
window.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east,
south, or west?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of
the building, and the window is the farthest east.

Mr. BELIN. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south
side of the building, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see
them?

Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they actually found it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a
possibility--I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up
there.

Mr. BELIN. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do?

Mr. JOHNSON. To remain there and protect the scene.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS
Deposition Exhibit G"--the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker--I would ask
you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be
in the same position as they were when you saw them there?

Mr. JOHNSON. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a
box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were
mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being
that far out.

Mr. BELIN. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the
hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to
the bricks?

Mr. JOHNSON. Next to the wall; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you
first saw them?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be
as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It
was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could
have been wrong.

Mr. BELIN. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is
that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton,
was closer to the wall?

Mr. JOHNSON. I thought they were all three closer to the wall.

Mr. BELIN. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did
you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my
partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that
corner.

Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the
window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of
fried chicken, and a pop bottle.

And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the
crime lab to finish their work.

Mr. BELIN. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything
else other than the sack and the pop bottle?

Mr. JOHNSON. And the remnants of fried chicken.

Mr. BELIN. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that
window, or was it by another set of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. That was by some other window.

Mr. BELIN. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building,
seven pairs of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the
center?

Mr. JOHNSON. Where the sack was?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of
windows to my--I am pretty sure it was.

Mr. BELIN. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting
from the east wall?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the west.

Mr. BELIN. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the
third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by
the second?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right by the second pair of windows.

Mr. BELIN. Now you stayed over there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the
first pair of windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. By the corner.

Mr. BELIN. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?

Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take
pictures?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything
had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of
pictures up there?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They
weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of
there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it
not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about Detective Montgomery?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the
sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the
shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and
the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was
made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the
paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper
bag.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this found?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Which corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my
partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he
unfolded it.

Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small
package.

Mr. BELIN. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the
first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the
building?

Mr. JOHNSON. It still would be over toward the east from the windows.

Mr. BELIN. It would be east of the windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not
too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition
Exhibit"--that appears to be G--it is picture No. 26, there are some
pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical
pipes?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those
vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of
the sixth floor near the east corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. That sack would be over near the corner of the building
here [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of
the sack be sticking out west of the pipes?

Mr. JOHNSON. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here.

Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been
east of the pipes. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was
east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is
where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it
up.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I
was, and I had already walked off to where he was.

Mr. BELIN. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself
in that picture--it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that
correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn't compare it to that book carton.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to
the north of where the sack was found?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way
around this thing.

I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that
is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene--you see,
there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I
don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This
might be just one sitting out over there out of the way.

Mr. BELIN. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons,
at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this
deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me----

Mr. JOHNSON. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a
little longer than those book cartons.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned
rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G--does any portion of that
rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that
is the southeast corner?

Mr. JOHNSON. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was
laying there. That would show it unfolded.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is
actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you
are saying?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual
size.

Mr. BELIN. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and
sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this
penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you
saw the sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my
partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was
from the wall in either direction, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in
rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner
of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in
that corner--in the southeast corner of that building.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about
that sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and
we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle
case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he
probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that
you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the
assassination is concerned?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else
that was preserved as evidence?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr.
Pepper bottle.

Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where is it?

Mr. JOHNSON. We turned it into the crime lab.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your police department crime lab?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are
talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.

Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast
corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I
never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they
did use it for something.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way
whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr.
Johnson.

You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of
your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive
the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in
Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing
of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd better read it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready.



TESTIMONY OF SEYMOUR WEITZMAN

The testimony of Seymour Weitzman was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Weitzman, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson, the
court reporter. Will you please stand and raise your right hand?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Seymour Weitzman.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Deputy constable, Dallas County.

Mr. BALL. What is the location of your place of business?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Precinct 1 which is the old courthouse, third floor, room
351.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you educated here in this State?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Partially here and Indiana.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I went through college, graduated in engineering, 1945.

Mr. BALL. When did you come to Texas?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Do you mean back to Texas?

Mr. BALL. Back to Texas.

Mr. WEITZMAN. Right after the service was over and when I came out of
the service.

Mr. BALL. Did you graduate from school before you went into the service?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I finished up after I received my discharge. I went back
to Indiana to engineering school in South Bend and finished my degree
in 1945.

Mr. BALL. What school?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Allison Division of General Motors Engineering School.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to Dallas?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Went in business for myself.

Mr. BALL. What kind of business?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Dresses, garments, ladies garments.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for
Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I supervised 26
stores for them for approximately 15 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which
is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex.
We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson,
Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the
discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County,
precinct 1.

Mr. BALL. You've been there ever since as deputy constable?

Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone?

Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I was with another deputy, Bill Hutton.

Mr. BALL. A deputy constable?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he and I were standing there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we
turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. You say you turned and were starting back to the
courthouse--what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at
the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street
entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we
thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean
at that second.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Three distinct shots.

Mr. BALL. How were they spaced?

Mr. WEITZMAN. First one, then the second two seemed to be
simultaneously.

Mr. BALL. You mean the first and then there was a pause?

Mr. WEITZMAN. There was a little period in between the second and third
shot.

Mr. BALL. What was the longest, between the first and second or the
second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Between the first and second shot.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course,
it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers,
whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was
shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.

Mr. BALL. What is the location of that wall?

Mr. WEITZMAN. It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't
remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's
cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the
monument section?

Mr. BALL. That's where Elm actually dead ends?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands
grabbed steampipes. I burned them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go into the railroad yards?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you notice in the railroad yards?

Mr. WEITZMAN. We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make
sense because they were going different directions.

Mr. BALL. Were there other people there besides you?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and
somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back
over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to
be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote
this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told
them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I
later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.

Mr. BALL. That you picked up off the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What part of the street did you pick this up?

Mr. WEITZMAN. As the President's car was going off, it would be on the
left-hand side of the street. It would be the----

Mr. BALL. The left-hand side facing----

Mr. WEITZMAN. That would be the south side of the street.

Mr. BALL. It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN. It was in the street itself.

Mr. BALL. On the pavement?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the curb?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the
curb, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, we entered the building and started to search
floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third
floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, I forget,
I believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in
charge of the floor, I forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's
office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. He wanted that gun and it
was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's
department, I can't remember his name, he and I proceeded until we----

Mr. BALL. Was his name Boone?

Mr. WEITZMAN. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over
the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I
was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking
on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and
I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was
covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye
because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that
gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you touch it?

Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime
lab came up and removed the gun itself.

Mr. BALL. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I
remember Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz remove anything from the gun?

Mr. WEITZMAN. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WEITZMAN. After that, I returned to my office and I was called down
to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had
seen.

Mr. BALL. I have three pictures here which I have marked, respectively,
D, E, F. I show you D first. Does that look anything like the location
where you found the gun?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was
looking under.

Mr. BALL. Looking from the top side of this picture?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top
side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I
was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in
here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "in here"?

Mr. WEITZMAN. In this area [indicating] because at the time we found
the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun.

Mr. BALL. In this area, you mean protruding over the gun?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it was more hidden than there.

Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked E. Does that look anything like
the area where the gun was found?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. I show you the picture marked F. Is that another picture of
the same area?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; as well as I remember, the gun was right in
here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Would you mind making a mark there with a pen? That is on
F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow in ink on F shows the
location?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Down on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Shows the location of the gun on the floor?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything between the place the gun was found; were
there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway
and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but
see it if it was in the open.

Mr. BALL. Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the
place where the gun was found.

Mr. WEITZMAN. Same area.

Mr. BALL. The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was
found?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police
Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser
bolt action?

Mr. WEITZMAN. In a glance, that's what it looked like.

Mr. BALL. That's what it looked like--did you say that or someone else
say that?

Mr. WEITZMAN. No; I said that. I thought it was one.

Mr. BALL. Are you fairly familiar with rifles?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods
business awhile.

Mr. BALL. What branch of service were you in?

Mr. WEITZMAN. U.S. Air Force.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle rifles?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols.

Mr. BALL. In the Air Force, what were you?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I started out as a flying sergeant.

Mr. BALL. You flew the plane?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you end up?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I was overseas in Japan.

Mr. BALL. You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m.,
is that correct?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there
because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.

Mr. BALL. In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the
rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did eject one live round?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live
round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not
considering that a shell.

Mr. BALL. I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it
looked.

Mr. WEITZMAN. I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?

Mr. BALL. Mauser bolt action.

Mr. WEITZMAN. And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was
2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it
turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

Mr. BALL. You also said it was a gun metal color?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Gray or blue?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Blue metal.

Mr. BALL. And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that
worn?

Mr. WEITZMAN. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?

Mr. WEITZMAN. It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but
dark oak brown.

Mr. BALL. Rough wood, was it?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; rough wood.

Mr. BALL. And it was equipped with a scope?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it of Japanese manufacture?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it.
I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned
out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to
some yardman?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during
the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw
something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence
and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a
firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was
before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. BALL. Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was
a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went
over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back
toward the jail.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you have any desire to read this over
and sign it or will you waive signature?

Mr. WEITZMAN. I will waive my signature. I don't think the Government
is going to alter my statement any.



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. R. WESTBROOK

The testimony of Capt. W. R. Westbrook was taken at 9 a.m., on April
6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. WESTBROOK. W. R. Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address?

Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time it is 7642 Daingerfield, Apartment
C, and another address is Route 2, Quinton. I live at both of them.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Captain of police.

Mr. BALL. The Commission has asked us to put something in the record
about everybody's past experience. Can you tell me about where you were
born--they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read
about you.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I was born in Benton, Ark., November 9, 1917. I was a
farm boy and came to Dallas in 1937, and went on the police department
June 13, 1941, and I served as a radio patrolman for approximately 4
years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about 6 or 7 years,
and was promoted to captain in 1952, and have held that position since.

Mr. BALL. What are your duties in general, captain?

Mr. WESTBROOK. At the present time I am personnel officer. We conduct
all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police,
and then we make--we investigate all personnel complaints--not all of
them, but the major ones.

Mr. BALL. Do you wear a uniform?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it is optional. I don't wear one.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you assigned any special duty?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; other than just my own routine duties.

Mr. BALL. What were those duties that day?

Mr. WESTBROOK. 8:15 to 5:15.

Mr. BALL. And were you in uniform on that day?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I was in my office and Mrs. Kinney, one of the
dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course--it's the
same as everybody says--we didn't believe it until a second look at her
and I realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here
because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and
I don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some
more men at this Texas Depository Building.

You know, I didn't review my report before I came over here--I didn't
have a chance. I just came off of vacation and they hit me with this
this morning as soon as I got to the office. I can't recall whether or
not it was the dispatcher's office, but I think it was--somebody in the
dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the Texas
Depository Building, so I sent the men that were in my office, which
were then Sergeants Stringer and Carver, and possibly Joe Fields and
McGee, if they were in there--it seems like McGee was, and I think--I
sent them to the building, and then I walked on down the hall spreading
the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down
there, and practically everybody left immediately. I sat around a
while--really not knowing what to do because of the--almost all of
the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and
I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas
Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a
car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository
Building, and I would stop on the way down where there would be a group
of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and I would stop and
catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until I reached
the building.

Do you want me to continue on?

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. WESTBROOK. After we reached the building, or after I reached the
building, I contacted my sergeant Sgt. R. D. Stringer, and he was
standing in front and so then I went into the building to help start
the search and I was on the first floor and I had walked down an aisle
and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when I came out on
this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer
killed in Oak Cliff.

Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel
officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at
that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman--I don't
recall his name--then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer
Tippit had been shot and killed.

Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there,
and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came
over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into
the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to
that location and it was a false--it was just one of the actually--it
was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news
somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about
Kennedy.

So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent,
and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an
eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a
lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened.

Mr. BALL. Where was your car parked at that time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It wasn't my car--we didn't have one. I don't know where
this officer went after he let us out at the scene.

Mr. BALL. An officer drove you down to the scene?

Mr. WESTBROOK. An officer drove us to the scene.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness?

Mr. WESTBROOK. We were at the squad car--Tippit's squad car--it had
never been moved.

Mr. BALL. You were near 10th and Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. And she was telling us what had occurred.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; the other officers got it.

Mr. BALL. Was it a Mrs. Markham?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It could have been, sir; I don't recall, because I
directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but
she lived directly across the street, and she told us--or was in the
process of telling us how it occurred--what she had seen, when someone
hollered a patrolman hollered--"It's just come over the radio that
they've got a suspicious person in the Texas Theatre."

Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car,
and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we
arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to
turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because
I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or
three at the back.

So, I and Barrett--Stringer went to another door, and I and Barrett--we
stopped at the first one--we got out and walked to this first entrance
that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee
of the theatre.

Again, I do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed--I
don't think I said anything to him--I think he told me, he said, "The
man you are looking for--" Now, right here, Barrett and I became
separated for a short minute or two. I think he was on the other side
of the stage, and I'm not for sure, but this boy reported--he pointed
to a man that was sitting about the middle--the middle row of seats
pretty close to the back and he said, "That is the man you are looking
for."

And I started toward him and I had taken about two or three steps--down
the steps.

Mr. BALL. Down the steps from the stage?

Mr. WESTBROOK. From the stage--yes, sir. Now, I feel sure, and at the
time I think I knew--I'm not sure if I included that in the report, but
I think Barrett was going down the other steps. I think we separated
right there and he got on the other side.

Mr. BALL. Which side were you on?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I was facing the audience--I would be on the right side.

Mr. BALL. Facing the audience--that would be on the right side?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I was on the right side.

Mr. BALL. And if you were facing the screen you would have been on the
left?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would have been on the left.

Mr. BALL. The man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the
aisle, if you were facing the screen?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and I
don't know just exactly which--it was the third or fourth row from the
back, it seemed like.

Mr. BALL. And near what aisle?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He was about the middle of the aisle.

Mr. BALL. He was about the middle of the aisle?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time
I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then
Officer McDonald--of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell
it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio
patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and
made a contact, and they started struggling.

Mr. BALL. You say "the boy come up," what did he do?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He got up from the seat and they started fighting.

Mr. BALL. Were the lights on in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the
lights were on very dim.

Mr. BALL. They started fighting--what sort of fighting did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and
McDonald grab him.

Mr. BALL. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the
way he was sitting facing me--I would say it would be his left fist.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running
and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on
him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the
aisle--he got there at the same time I did.

I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and
finally some officer--I don't know which one it was--says, "Yes; I have
the gun."

Mr. BALL. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either
McDonald or anyone else?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I heard Oswald say something about police
brutality--Oswald yelled something about police brutality.

Mr. BALL. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you
hear McDonald say anything?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from
where I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the man say anything?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think
that was just all he yelled--was said while I was in the aisle walking
down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that
time.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived?

Mr. WESTBROOK. They were putting the handcuffs on him--they had one
handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and
they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many
hands there.

Mr. BALL. How many officers were there?

Mr. WESTBROOK. In fact--that was one of the only humorous things about
the whole thing--somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were
twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled--I remember that,
"My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of
the crowd that somebody grabbed.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at
the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with
Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and
grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of
the shotgun; did you see that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened
without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the
struggle.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody ever tell you that story before?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I've heard that.

Mr. BALL. That's the first time you have ever heard it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was
in play.

Mr. BALL. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who
approached Oswald have a gun in their hand?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. In the theatre--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any at any other time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library.

Mr. BALL. But did you enter the theatre with a gun?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform
within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir--not that I recall, but of course at that time
I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I
probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been
somebody come in with a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. Were you in uniform at that time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then--some
way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald--where this was going on, and
I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about like this----

Mr. BALL. That's close to a foot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; I'd say 10 inches.

Mr. BALL. Ten inches.

Mr. WESTBROOK. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so
that was the only thing. Then I yelled--there was so much confusion and
it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get
him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city
hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left
with him.

Mr. BALL. Were you the senior officer there?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Possibly--I don't think there was another captain there.
There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and
take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time.

Mr. BALL. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have
only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the
time--the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure
at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have
patrons.

Mr. BALL. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him,
as close to him as you did in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It seemed like there was a scratch or something--I don't
remember exactly--when I looked at him--maybe a slight discoloration,
or it might have been bleeding slightly.

Mr. BALL. Under the right eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I believe it would be--you--yes, sir; it would be under
the right eye.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Sergeant Warren on the right----

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left--I don't
know--I don't know his name. Of course, I know him.

Mr. BALL. That's Sergeant Warren on the right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is his assignment?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He is jail supervisor.

Mr. BALL. And do you know when the picture was taken?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on
Oswald's face.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little
discoloration there--I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit
more so than it does there, but you can see some.

Mr. BALL. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise.

Mr. BALL. The bruise under the eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him.

Mr. BALL. Under which eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think it was the right eye--no, wait a minute, that
would be the left eye--left eye.

Mr. BALL. You do recall that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The one that was facing me--he was facing me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye--when?

Mr. WESTBROOK. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many
officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the
group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to
straighten up, with as many officers as there were there--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise
under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just
from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the
fact that he had hollered "brutality"--well I'm getting ahead of myself
here, so I'll just quit.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as
soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on
his face, I sent him on upstairs.

Mr. BALL. As soon as Oswald arrived?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do
with Oswald after he got to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather
long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture
made--there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession.

Mr. BALL. That was Officer McDonald--you had his picture taken
immediately of his face?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. What happened after that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him--with
Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him taken from the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; because I went the other way.

Mr. BALL. You went to the back?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald
again--that's the last time I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever find some clothing?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That was before, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Actually, I didn't find it--it was pointed out to me by
either some officer that--that was while we were going over the scene
in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out
a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and
told the officer to take the license number.

Mr. BALL. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what
you had done, but you omitted this incident.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I tell you what--this occurred shortly--let me think
just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit
more conversation on the radio--I got on the radio and I asked the
dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the
library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was
in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that
time we saw Sergeant Owens pass.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "command post"?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the definition--the way we place a command
post--maybe I can use another illustration.

If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there
should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens,
as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but
let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire.

In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of
Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we
didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons
was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it,
but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the
library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street--I
would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would
be West Jefferson--because 10th comes through--yes; that would be West
Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene.

Mr. BALL. That was after you left the library?

Mr. WESTBROOK. After we left the library. I got out of the car and
walked through the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. What parking lot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't know--it may have been a used-car lot.

Mr. BALL. On what street?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this
jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. The alley of what?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over
there.

Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is the street north.

Mr. WESTBROOK. What street?

Mr. BALL. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th
Street.

Mr. WESTBROOK. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street?

Mr. BALL. And where with reference to Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of
Patton--I guess it would be east of Patton.

Mr. BALL. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be
toward Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Toward town--if I could see a map?

Mr. BALL. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness].

Mr. WESTBROOK. I used to be very familiar with that.

Mr. BALL. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us.

Mr. WESTBROOK. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located--here
is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland,
Storey, and Crawford--I would say it would be between Crawford and
Storey.

Mr. BALL. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there.

Mr. BALL. That would be west of Patton.

Mr. WESTBROOK. That would be west of Patton--yes, sir; toward the
theatre.

Mr. BALL. Now, you came from the library--where is that library?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must
be here on Turner Plaza right here.

Mr. BALL. You drove west on Jefferson, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. We drove west on Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. And you got out of the car where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. We got out of the car about here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. At what street?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was between two streets, and I would say it was
between this Storey and Crawford.

Mr. BALL. Why did you get out of the car at that time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Just more or less searching--just no particular
reason--just searching the area.

Mr. BALL. You were just looking around to see what you could see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun--I had borrowed a
shotgun from a patrolman.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got out of the car?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking
area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my
location or not, but I think I'm right.

Mr. BALL. You walked through a car lot, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; and I think I came out--is that a
church--there's a church right there close by.

Mr. BALL. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, there could have been--yes, sir. There was either a
used-car lot or a parking lot--that I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Well, I show you some pictures here.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would recognize it in the picture.

Mr. BALL. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of
Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. WESTBROOK. At Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. BALL. There is a parking area behind that.

Mr. WESTBROOK. This looks more like it.

Mr. BALL. The Texaco station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes--the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket
was found was right along in here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a
parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at
the corner of Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You walked through there, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through from Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. From Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. There is an old house--the only thing--I come down
by this station there--there is an old house there and some of the
officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and
there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further
attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly--this may be it--it
appears to be it right here in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Put an arrow showing the old house.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think this is it right here--I can't be positive, but
I think that's it.

Mr. BALL. Make an arrow with a pen.

Mr. WESTBROOK. The arrow marks the point of an old house.

Mr. BALL. That you walked toward, is that right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that old house?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, there were several officers--there were some at
the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a
moment and then I walked on.

Mr. BALL. You walked where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think I come up this way.

Mr. BALL. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Towards the parking lot--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Behind the Texaco service station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and
some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be
positive--pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly
under the rear of one of the cars.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a car was it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take
the make and the license number.

Mr. BALL. Did you take the number yourself?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I couldn't tell you that, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37.
Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has
marked "old house."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for
identification.)

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place
where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95."

Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the
area, was probably right along in here.

Mr. BALL. Put a circle there in the general area.

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. The jacket was underneath a car?

Mr. WESTBROOK. But, I am guessing on this--slightly underneath a car.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean you are guessing on this--what are you
guessing about?

Mr. WESTBROOK. About where the jacket was found in this picture.

Mr. BALL. You mean it was under----

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was
under the one I put it under or not.

Mr. BALL. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you
couldn't swear which?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but
I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition.

Now, you don't know the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things
that were happening so fast.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize anything in that picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39.
View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.")

Mr. WESTBROOK. I still think this is the house here--I think this is
the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket
was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was
some--more room from where the cars were from what is shown there--back
this way.

Mr. BALL. Point out the old house.

Mr. WESTBROOK. This one.

Mr. BALL. Mark it.

(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, that, I don't believe I could do----

Mr. BALL. Was it near the alley?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was near--but not this close--it don't seem to me.

Mr. BALL. Not as close as shown in the picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It don't seem to me--I can't remember for sure.

Mr. BALL. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket
over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I
think that would be on 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That is exactly the jacket we found.

Mr. BALL. That is the jacket you found?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you turned it over to whom?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, it was to this officer--that got the name.

Mr. BALL. Does your report show the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen--it
was happening so fast you don't remember those things.

Mr. BALL. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. To 10th and Patton--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And from there you went to the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't
remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but
anyway, we got together again--probably at 10th and Patton.

Mr. BALL. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was
brought in?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't
have been.

Mr. BALL. But it was brought to your office?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. And it was marked by some officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or
three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and
told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up
after it. I didn't take it down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly could have--he was in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the gun unloaded?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the
gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at any of the shells?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you look the gun over?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions?

Mr. ELY. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left
orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and
you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I
don't know who has the list.

Mr. ELY. That's all.

Mr. WESTBROOK. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's
just--the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day
he worked with me.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions?

Mr. STERN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure.



TESTIMONY OF ELMER L. BOYD

The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964,
in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOYD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. BOYD. Elmer L. Boyd.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. BOYD. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the
Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't
you?

Mr. BOYD. I think they received one over at the office and they
notified me.

Mr. BALL. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation
is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of
your investigation.

Mr. BOYD. All right.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your
life?

Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro
County--the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about
15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north
of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country
school--it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years
and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my
second grade. The reason I was in the second grade--I had to go through
a primer before I got in the first grade--I didn't fail--I just had to
go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated
from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy
and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the
Navy--I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from
there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D.
Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that--somewhere
around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to--I
transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another
destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of
January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where
I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated
in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was
about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to
Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since.

I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that
I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started
out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a
collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I
think I worked a couple of more places before then--one for a printing
company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a
while, but I didn't stay there long.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in homicide?

Mr. BOYD. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957.

Mr. BALL. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?

Mr. BOYD. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4
to midnight.

Mr. BALL. So, on that day you went to work earlier?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. BOYD. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by
this?

Mr. BALL. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on
Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No.
629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840."

Mr. BOYD. Yes; we are partners.

Mr. BALL. Did you prepare that report yourself?

Mr. BOYD. He and I together prepared it.

Mr. BALL. When did you prepare it?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--the last part of November--I'm not sure of the
date.

Mr. BALL. Was it within a week after the events took place that are
recorded there?

Mr. BOYD. I would say so; yes.

Mr. BALL. You dictated it to a secretary?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the
secretary and she typed it up.

Mr. BALL. It was written out in your longhand?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have those longhand notes?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. BALL. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims'
deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it.

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what
you were doing in a notebook?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook.

Mr. BALL. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you work?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you just jot things down as they occur?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have that notebook with you?

Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where it is?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of
the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the
particular times, you know, and after I fixed this--I don't recall what
I did with it. I may have torn it up.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at
all times?

Mr. BOYD. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it,
I'm sure.

Mr. BALL. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have
anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of
November?

Mr. BOYD. Of 1963--I don't recall if I have these showups in there or
not--it seems like I did.

Mr. BALL. Do you have it with you?

Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Can you get it for me?

Mr. BOYD. I probably could if I have it.

Mr. BALL. Will you look it up?

Mr. BOYD. I will look for it.

Mr. BALL. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10
o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me
see it if you still have it?

Mr. BOYD. All right.

Mr. BALL. I'll be up there in your department--near Captain Fritz'
office.

Mr. BOYD. What time--at 10 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. At 10 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BOYD. I'll be there--I come on at 10.

Mr. BALL. You come on at 10?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then, I'll see you in the morning.

Mr. BOYD. All right.

Mr. BALL. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work
early; why was that?

Mr. BOYD. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was
assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade
Mart.

Mr. BALL. Where did you hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I heard that.

Mr. BALL. You heard that over the radio, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson
called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told
him that--Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the
President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass
and was on his way to Parkland.

Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?

Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr.
Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we
went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there
were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front
of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene
of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book
Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also
out there, and he rode back down with us.

Mr. BALL. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School
Depository Building at that time?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that
they thought that the shot came from--from the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard that?

Mr. BOYD. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that--pulling out--we
were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out
in the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you
do?

Mr. BOYD. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three
stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to
the top floor--I believe it was the top one--I think it's the seventh
floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle
hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. And you were with whom at that time?

Mr. BOYD. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOYD. We stopped at the sixth floor--you say, did we go down to the
sixth floor?

Mr. BALL. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what
you did.

Mr. BOYD. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on
the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose
it was books--boxes of books stacked up back over there that way.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the hulls on the floor?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were
on the floor?

Mr. BOYD. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I
think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes.

Mr. BALL. That was west?

Mr. BOYD. Right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Near the windows?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; they were near the windows.

Mr. BALL. How far west from where the hulls were located?

Mr. BOYD. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably.

Mr. BALL. Where, with reference to the rows of windows--there are pairs
of windows--how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were
located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't recall just how many rows of windows
from there it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think
it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast
corner.

Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Pair of windows?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; now--pair of windows--let's see.

Mr. BALL. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street
side--now, what sort of sack was it?

Mr. BOYD. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack--it looked
like a lunch sack.

Mr. BALL. About the size of a lunch sack?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other paper sack around there?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall any if I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where
the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were
found?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. BOYD. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had
been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest
corner over there.

Mr. BALL. Where was that located?

Mr. BOYD. It was down between some boxes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs
taken of the hulls?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I
believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the
scene of the hulls.

Mr. BALL. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see
pictures taken there?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. BOYD. Lieutenant Day.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there?

Mr. BOYD. I saw a lot of officers.

Mr. BALL. Did you find anything yourself?

Mr. BOYD. Not on the sixth floor--I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere--near 2
o'clock--I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been
between 1:30 and 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found?

Mr. BOYD. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been
found?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him eject anything from it?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it
after Lieutenant Day came over there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out.

Mr. BALL. You heard about it?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't
you?

Mr. BOYD. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but
someone--when we got downstairs--someone told Captain Fritz that
Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office.

Mr. BALL. You say you started to go where?

Mr. BOYD. Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place
to go to in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor.
He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and
I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the
address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like
I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see
him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in
there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought
was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted
to go by there and we carried him there.

Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had
been arrested for the murder of Tippit?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on
the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the
suspect for the murder of Tippit?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when
we heard about him being arrested over there.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?

Mr. BOYD. Yes sir.

Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you
remember?

Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.

Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there--I
don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker,
and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation
room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee
Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office
and he talked to him in there.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?

Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there;
yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?

Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time--?

Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI
agents.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?

Mr. BOYD. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr.
Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there.

Mr. BALL. And who else was there?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner.

Mr. BALL. He's your other partner?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in
there?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I think there was a Secret Service man there, but
I don't recall--I don't know what his name was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said.

Mr. BALL. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said?

Mr. BOYD. Well----

Mr. BALL. Give me the substance.

Mr. BOYD. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. BOYD. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him--I'm
sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he
would quit.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask him where he lived?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he lived over on Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Did he give the address?

Mr. BOYD. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address--I
know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south--I
remember that--he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley
and I remember another thing--Mr. Hosty came in and identified him
himself, you know, as he came in.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "identified him"?

Mr. BOYD. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down
there in front of him and told him who he was with.

Mr. BALL. He told Oswald his name and who he was with?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What else happened?

Mr. BOYD. Well, they participated in the interrogation--Mr. Hosty asked
him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression--what
happened?

Mr. BOYD. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his
house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate
him coming out there when he wasn't there.

Mr. BALL. Is that what he said to Hosty?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall--I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions
and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down,
and like I say, he was pretty upset.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into
the room?

Mr. BOYD. I couldn't say if they had or not--they could have been.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got
in the room?

Mr. BOYD. They could have been changed after he got in the room--I'm
not certain.

Mr. BALL. Who changed them?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the
desk with what? With his hand?

Mr. BOYD. With his hands.

Mr. BALL. What did Hosty ask him before that?

Mr. BOYD. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City?

Mr. BALL. Who did?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hosty.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall just exactly--I think that the words that he
used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there
and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like
I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming
out there to his house.

Mr. BALL. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck
the desk with his hand--what question did he ask?

Mr. BOYD. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had
something to do with--let me see--I'm not sure if he was still talking
to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald said he had not?

Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been to Mexico.

Mr. BALL. And what did Hosty say to that?

Mr. BOYD. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City--I've just
forgotten--it wasn't too awful long before that--I don't recall just
exactly what time that he said--I know it was something recent.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand--I don't.

Mr. STERN. Did he ask him anything about Russia?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; something was asked him--I don't recall who asked
him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he
was there in 1959, or something like that--about 1959. I'll tell you,
I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right
beside Oswald--right in front of him--more or less.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody keep notes?

Mr. BOYD. I saw the FBI man writing--they had a little book--across the
table over there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any microphones in there to record the
conversation?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your
prisoners?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; we don't.

Mr. BALL. How long did this take--how long was he questioned at this
time?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--we took him down to the first showup right after
4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here--4:05 is when we left.

Mr. BALL. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in
there--what time was that?

Mr. BOYD. At 2:15-2:20.

Mr. BALL. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05.

Mr. BALL. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him?

Mr. BOYD. Who picked the men?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who picked those men.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did Sims?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did--I don't recall who picked those men.

Mr. BALL. Who were the men in this showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, one of them's names was--we call him Bill Perry, his
name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and
we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables
was No. 4.

Mr. BALL. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he?

Mr. BOYD. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I have seen them in there before--I mean--it isn't done
real often.

Mr. BALL. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers.

Mr. BALL. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It is unusual?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed
with the suspect, isn't it?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case?

Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with
you and with Oswald into the showup?

Mr. BOYD. When we got ready for the showup.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with
Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean
where--where were you when you heard that officers were going to take
part in the showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee
Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail
office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. BALL. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. And what did you find?

Mr. BOYD. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five.

Mr. BALL. Live? Live shells?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with them?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of
the property up there to be turned in.

Mr. BALL. Did you put any mark on them?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I can look and see.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will
you take a look at that--at the cartridges?

Mr. BOYD. Yes--I got my mark on them.

Mr. BALL. You have your mark on all five of them?

Mr. BOYD. I have my mark on the first three--yes, sir--I have my mark
on all of them.

Mr. BALL. On all five of them?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You put those marks on there, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether
these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the
cartridges which you took from Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; they are.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you put the mark on them?

Mr. BOYD. I was back up in my office.

Mr. BALL. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them?

Mr. BOYD. I put them in my pocket.

Mr. BALL. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on
them, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And turned them over to whom?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--it seems like we had a drawer there where
we had some more property, where we put it all in there--you know,
where they had the other stuff--I have forgotten just exactly where it
would be.

Mr. BALL. You turned them over to someone in the police department?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup
were you on? Stage side or out front?

Mr. BOYD. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into
that showup room from the room leading into the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--at one of the showups--I've forgotten whether it
was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--Sims asked
him some questions in one of those showups.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions?

Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed that were in this showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and
one of them--let's see--I don't recall what color, but some of them--I
don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their
ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves.

Mr. BALL. Without a tie--did he have a tie on?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers,
Perry?

Mr. BOYD. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his
shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that.

Mr. BALL. What about Clark?

Mr. BOYD. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not
sure--well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember
seeing him in a white shirt as he came in.

Mr. BALL. Were they manacled--handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. All four of them?

Mr. BOYD. Yes--handcuffed together.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald have on?

Mr. BOYD. Well, he had on some--I believe it was dark slacks--it seems
like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It
seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--I'm not too
sure about that jacket--I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks.

Mr. BALL. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the
other three, weren't they?

Mr. BOYD. Well, could have been.

Mr. BALL. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you
say?

Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole
in the elbow, didn't he?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did or not--I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did
he reply?

Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply.

Mr. BALL. Was he angry?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe he was too angry.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him shouting.

Mr. BALL. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time?

Mr. BOYD. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he at some other showup protest?

Mr. BOYD. I heard he did, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Were you present?

Mr. BOYD. I wasn't present at that one.

Mr. BALL. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest
of the type of showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. This day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a
fair showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did.

Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't
think it was fair to put those men in with him?

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell me that--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair?

Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the
audience part of the showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I couldn't--I don't recall any of it--I couldn't
hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. BOYD. I couldn't see them.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were
out in the audience?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. BOYD. I took him back--I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz'
office.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get him back there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20--I believe--yes;
that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been
off.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that interrogation?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--I don't recall who was up there--I think
there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there
and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there.

Mr. BALL. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation?

Mr. BOYD. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one.
I think another one came in--now, I never did know--there was another
one that came in--now, I never did know--then there was another one
that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an
FBI man--I never did know. But someone--I believe, called him back out
right after he got in there, but I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the FBI agents?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How about the Secret Service?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Secret Service man there?

Mr. BOYD. I think there was a Secret Service man there.

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mr. BOYD. Just one.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his name?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see if I have it here.

Mr. BALL. Was Kelley there?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation.

Mr. BALL. How long did this one last that started at 4:20?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back
downstairs for another showup.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz'
office?

Mr. BOYD. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long.

Mr. BALL. Did you feed Oswald at any time?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall--I don't know--I believe someone asked him if he
wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a
cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall--I don't
recall just exactly the time--that's M. G. Hall.

Mr. BALL. He's one of your partners?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think--let me see--I know
that he gave him a cup of coffee.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your
custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that
night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat?

Mr. BOYD. I ate real late that night--I don't remember just what time
it was.

Mr. BALL. How late?

Mr. BOYD. I think I ate around 9 o'clock--I'm not sure about that--it
could have been 10.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you
remember what was said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in front or behind?

Mr. BOYD. They were in front of him, I believe, still.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that took place at that
interrogation--anything that was said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir--I sure don't.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And who was present at that showup?

Mr. BOYD. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were
numbered the same as they were before.

Mr. BALL. Were the men dressed any differently?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before.

Mr. BALL. And do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some
questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first
showup that afternoon?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask questions at any of the showups?

Mr. BOYD. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I
don't really know.

Mr. BALL. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions--at
6:20?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I think he answered the questions.

Mr. BALL. Was he angry?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being angry.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk louder than the other three men?

Mr. BOYD. Not especially that I noticed.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the
audience part of the showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what
they said to the officers?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. BOYD. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time?

Mr. BOYD. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we
took him there.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. BOYD. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston
[spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill
Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name--they came
in with Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was there too, was he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What took place there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee
Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation that took place there at that
time in front of Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was it, that you can remember?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to
Oswald, and--well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of
anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir--I heard--I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to
him about shooting Officer Tippit--I don't remember what interrogation
it was in.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the
President, President Kennedy?

Mr. BOYD. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the
President.

Mr. BALL. Who talked to him about it?

Mr. BOYD. I believe it was Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston
read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said
anything?

Mr. BOYD. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall that?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald did make some statement, though?

Mr. BOYD. I believe he said something--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--I
believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York
City.

Mr. BALL. When did he say that? When did he tell you that?

Mr. BOYD. It was--either right before the first showup, or right after
the first showup.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking
to Captain Fritz--yes.

Mr. BALL. This was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did Fritz say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on
for him to use the telephone later on and call him.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said about who would pay for the call?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. No mention of that?

Mr. BOYD. I think he said he would call collect--I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Who said that--Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr.
Clements--I believe, came in there.

Mr. BALL. In where?

Mr. BOYD. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember what he asked him?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked
him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in
Russia--when he went to Russia and when he came back--I don't recall
all of that.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald answered the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I'll tell you--Oswald, he answered his questions
until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by
another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his
interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and
he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else
to say.

He came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him
he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background,
and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short
interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe
I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't
care to say anything else."

And sat back down.

Mr. BALL. He stood up and said that, did he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair
and said, "I don't care to talk any more."

Mr. BALL. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't
it?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third
showup that you participated in?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that took place at what time?

Mr. BOYD. It was 7:30, let me see, no--7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who took part in that showup?

Mr. BOYD. You mean the officers?

Mr. BALL. No; who were the parties in the showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2
was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was--I have the wrong name in here--I
have the last name--I just asked him his name as he came out in the
showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it
was Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Brazell--how do you spell that?

Mr. BOYD. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. He was the third man?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was the fourth man?

Mr. BOYD. Don Ables was the fourth.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the
showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know any reason.

Mr. BALL. Who directed that?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they
had those three men down there.

Mr. BALL. What is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup
and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear
in the showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and
have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them
send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and
we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four
men--whatever the case may be.

Mr. BALL. Who picks them?

Mr. BOYD. The jailers upstairs.

Mr. BALL. Do you tell them to get them all the same color?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color.
I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color.

Mr. BALL. What about the size and weight?

Mr. BOYD. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size
and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they
don't.

Mr. BALL. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup?

Mr. BOYD. I didn't know them--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or any of the showups?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this third showup took place at what time?

Mr. BOYD. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3
minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to
go back up at 7:55.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you
attended?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who did.

Mr. BALL. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than
the first two.

Mr. BALL. What about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's
take the No. 1 man--what was his coloring and weight and size?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He
was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161
pounds.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t?

Mr. BOYD. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. 161 pounds?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion.

Mr. BALL. What was he in for, do you know?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and
theft.

Mr. BALL. Then, the second man was who?

Mr. BOYD. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And the third man--was who?

Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was No. 3 and what is his description?

Mr. BOYD. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10",
169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion.

Mr. BALL. What was he in for?

Mr. BOYD. I think he was in for tickets.

Mr. BALL. You mean, going too fast--speeding?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue
tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what I
think he was in for.

Mr. BALL. And Don Ables is the fourth man?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too?

Mr. BOYD. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What do you have Oswald down for?

Mr. BOYD. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he
was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds--I believe that is
what he told me.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Or to Brazel?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner
any different than it had been the first two showups?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall it being any different.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he
started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset.

Mr. BALL. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an
hour.

Mr. BALL. Then, after that what happened?

Mr. BOYD. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes
Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came
down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective
Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly
afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes
and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went.

Mr. BALL. What did Barnes do?

Mr. BOYD. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of
Oswald's hands and the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. You were there when that happened?

Mr. BOYD. I was in and out--I was in more than I was out. I was in and
out at the time that was going on.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened--what did you do after that?

Mr. BOYD. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee
Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald then?

Mr. BOYD. He was still up in the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Did you question him again?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. BOYD. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came
in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the
assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he
told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if
anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail.

Mr. BOYD. What did you do then?

Mr. BOYD. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes--describe what
you did?

Mr. BOYD. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there.

Mr. BALL. Television cameras?

Mr. BOYD. I believe there was some cameras in there--I'm not sure about
the cameras--I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They
had some cameras on the outside.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. We took him up there and some of them asked him some
questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally
we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and
put him in the jail.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald angry?

Mr. BOYD. Part of the time he was.

Mr. BALL. What was said--can you remember?

Mr. BOYD. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you
shoot the President?"

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. BOYD. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone."

Mr. BALL. You took him on up there, then, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you put him in jail for the night, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then you went home and went to bed?

Mr. BOYD. Later on I did.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work the next day--that would be
November 23.

Mr. BOYD. I think I got in around 9 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25
and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail
again and brought him down to my office.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you brought him down to your office?

Mr. BOYD. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S.
marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office
at that time.

Mr. BALL. Who else was in the office?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz
were there.

Mr. BALL. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there.

Mr. BOYD. Well, he came back out after we got him down there--that's
right.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you heard what was said?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what you heard.

Mr. BOYD. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall what questions he asked.

Mr. BALL. Who else asked questions?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz talked to him and--let me see--I don't remember
if Mr. Bookhout--it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two--I
believe all of them asked him something.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what they asked?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like
I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near
Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; he was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back?

Mr. BOYD. They were in the front of him.

Mr. BALL. How long did this questioning last?

Mr. BOYD. It didn't last too awful long--about an hour or so, I
believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another
detective in our bureau--went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck
Oswald's room out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there then?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm not sure if I had a search warrant--I know
the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search
warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had
a search warrant.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't have one?

Mr. BOYD. I didn't have one.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether you had one or not?

Mr. BOYD. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it.

Mr. BALL. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North
Beckley the day before?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it was searched the day before--you knew that, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you searched it this day, what did you find?

Mr. BOYD. Nothing.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything with you?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You took nothing out?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean.

Mr. BALL. What kind of furnishings did you see in there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser--it
barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to
walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works
were--wasn't any wider than that--just about that wide [indicating].

Mr. BALL. The whole room?

Mr. BOYD. The whole room.

Mr. BALL. It wasn't any wider than how many feet?

Mr. BOYD. I would say it wasn't over about 12 feet long and about 5
feet wide or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Did it have curtains on the windows?

Mr. BOYD. Well, it had--let's see, I'm not sure if it was curtains or
blinds. It had one little bed in there and it barely did have room
enough to get in there and go to bed.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald again that day?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did--let me see.

Mr. BALL. Well, it says in your report you brought him in at 6:30.

Mr. BOYD. I didn't do that.

Mr. BALL. You didn't do it? You were off duty?

Mr. BOYD. I wasn't off duty, but I just wasn't at the office at that
time.

Mr. BALL. You don't think you saw him again?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. What about November 24?

Mr. BOYD. I worked late on the night of the 23d so I wouldn't have to
come back early the next morning.

Mr. BALL. Then, you were with him on the 24th?

Mr. BOYD. I wasn't with him on the 24th--I was watching on the TV at
home--I wasn't at home--I was out at my mother-in-law's at Irving,
Tex., and I called Lieutenant Baker right after I learned about Oswald.

Mr. BALL. I want to ask you a question about Oswald's appearance when
you first saw him. Did he have any marks on his face?

Mr. BOYD. He had one markup--I believe it was on his left eye--the
thing that I noticed or was noticeable. And I asked him where he got
that and he said, "Well, I struck an officer and he struck me back." He
said, "Which he should have done."

Mr. BALL. Did he say "He should have done that?" Did Oswald say that?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I want the exact words, not your version--give me the exact
words.

Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you--I asked him how he got this place on his eye,
and he says, "Well, I struck an officer and the officer struck me back,
which he should have done."

Mr. BALL. Those were the exact words?

Mr. BOYD. Those were the exact words.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything else said about that?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the
officers at the time of the arrest?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever use the term that "police brutality"--did he ever
use that term to you?

Mr. BOYD. I don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality".

Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time when a lawyer visited Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I wasn't present--we asked him, did he want a lawyer
here--Captain Fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he
didn't want a lawyer, he wanted Mr. Abt.

Mr. BALL. Do you have some questions?

Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald--the way he handled
himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you?

Mr. BOYD. I'll tell you, I've never saw another man just exactly like
him.

Mr. STERN. In what way?

Mr. BOYD. Well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as
soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer
right back--he didn't hesitate about his answers. I mean, as soon as
you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back
and, like I said, I never saw a man that could answer questions like he
did.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms?

Mr. BOYD. Well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once
in a while he would--I don't know just how to tell you, but every now
and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next
minute he would just liable to be--I mean his attitude, you know, would
change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would
be talking to you he was rather calm.

Mr. STERN. When it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it
change apparently?

Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody
would say something--some little something he didn't like, and he
would--he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he
jumped up and slapped the desk.

Mr. STERN. During the Hosty interrogation?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. He seemed to you to understand generally his rights?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And do you know that he wasn't required to answer?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Of course, this was a long day for everybody--did he seem by
the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear
tired or particularly worn out?

Mr. BOYD. Well, he didn't appear to be as tired as I felt--he didn't
appear to be, because I imagine he could have been tired--he didn't
show it.

Mr. STERN. This is quite unnatural--really rather exceptional; this is,
of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two
people, one of them the President of the United States, and at the end
of the day, he is pretty well in command?

Can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed
to you--anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know--he just struck me as being the man, you know,
who liked to move around a lot--I don't know that he did, but he just
struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and--in
one place.

Mr. BALL. When you participated in the search of Oswald and found five
pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of
these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to
him about it?

Mr. BOYD. I just asked him, "What were they doing in there," and he
said, "I just had them in my pocket."

Mr. STERN. The memorandum mentions the cartridges--bus transfer, except
that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to
Mr. Sims, Do you remember any other items that he had that you got from
him during this search?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I know that Mr. Sims did get the bus transfer and
took his ring--he took his ring off and give it to Mr. Sims, and I got
those five shells, and that's all that I recall being taken from him.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of
that investigation?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm trying to think if he had an identification
bracelet.

When we were up in Captain Fritz' office the first time--I recall--I
don't recall if I saw that bracelet then or not--it seemed like I did.
I know I saw a little card with his picture on it.

Mr. STERN. But this was not something you obtained in your search?

Mr. BOYD. No; I didn't.

Mr. STERN. That had been obtained earlier, apparently.

That's all. Do you have anything else?

Mr. ELY. Yes. Mr. Boyd, when you first saw Oswald when you went to the
interrogation room and got him--do you remember that?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your
arrival?

Mr. BOYD. I am not positive about who was with him--there's some
uniformed men in there and I believe there was Officer K. E. Lyons,
but I would be afraid to say for sure, because I'm not positive, but I
believe that's who it was.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they
talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't know. I just took it that they were the ones
that brought him into--into the office up there. They were more or less
just waiting for somebody.

I just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the
Texas Theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our
office from Oak Cliff.

Mr. ELY. Now, referring to the press conference Friday night, I believe
you mentioned that part of the time Oswald seemed angry to you, do you
know what it was that upset him?

Mr. BOYD. When someone called to him and asked him why he shot the
President, that seemed like that's what upset him.

Mr. ELY. Do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked
the people in the various lineups--you don't know exactly, but did you
know, is there anybody you could tell us?

Mr. BOYD. I just don't know who it would be.

Mr. ELY. On Friday night, about what time did you check Oswald into the
jail there?

Mr. BOYD. I think it was around 12:20 in the morning, I believe.
According to my watch, I believe that's what I went by--that's what the
time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. We turned him
over to the jailers at 12:23 a.m.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again
after that time? Late at night--I realize you checked him out the next
morning.

Mr. BOYD. No sir; I don't know.

Mr. ELY. You I don't know?

Mr. BOYD. No.

Mr. ELY. I believe that's all I have.

Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Boyd, this will be written up and it will be
submitted to you and you can read it over and correct it and sign it
if you wish. That's one procedure you can follow.

Or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the
Commission as it is if you waive your signature. You have your
option--you can do either one.

Mr. BOYD. I think she probably got it down all right--I'll trust her.

Mr. BALL. Then, you are waiving your signature?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much, and I am glad to have met you.

Mr. BOYD. Glad to have met you, Mr. Ball.



TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEE STUDEBAKER

The testimony of Robert Lee Studebaker was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April
6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this
Commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. R. L. Studebaker--Robert Lee.

Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to appear here to give testimony
in this inquiry, have you not, by your Chief of Police, who told you
that we had a matter requiring your testimony?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The subject of the testimony is the assassination of
President Kennedy.

You made certain investigations on November 22 and 23 and 24 with
respect to that, did you not?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you
tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went
to school, and what your training is?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several
schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and
came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since
February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene
Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work
that you are doing?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's just on-the-job training--you go out with old
officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and
fingerprints.

Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in identification
fingerprints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we
are. We just compare them.

Mr. BALL. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that
we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for
the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and
things, we have a special powder that we used on that.

Mr. BALL. Then you take a picture of the print--a photograph?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just
lift the print and then tape it to preserve it.

Mr. BALL. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising it up; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By means of your dusting powder?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up
there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what
it's used for.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 a.m.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What are your hours--7 to 3?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 to 3.

Mr. BALL. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go down there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I believe we got the call about 1:05--we was down there
about 1:15.

Mr. BALL. And whom did you go with?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call.

Mr. BALL. What equipment did you take with you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck.
We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff--a station wagon.

Mr. BALL. Each one of you had a camera, did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we just had one camera.

Mr. BALL. What kind of camera was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex.

Mr. BALL. Have you had some experience in operating a camera?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How much?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on this certain camera?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. About 2 months.

Mr. BALL. But you have had photography in your crime lab work?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. For how long?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Was about 2 months.

Mr. BALL. How long have you done photography altogether?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In my lifetime?

Mr. BALL. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of
years?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st
of October.

Mr. BALL. You did--had you done any photography before that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just home photography.

Mr. BALL. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you
mentioned?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck
complete.

Mr. BALL. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for
different substances?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many different kinds of powder do you have?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting
prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano
powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we
purchased this new powder--it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of
powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out
of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better
than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print
than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder--a magnetic
powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a
silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on
different types surfaces.

Mr. BALL. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which
is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that
it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent
fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your
skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until
you put your powder on there and then it raises it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book
Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the
sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as
soon as you arrived there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there.

Mr. BALL. After you were there a little while, did somebody find
something?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of
the building--they found three empty hulls and we went over there and
took photographs of that.

Mr. BALL. Do you have that photograph with you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Could I see it, please?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day
took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took
myself--these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one
was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here,
and a hull over here.

Mr. BALL. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you
took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit
A," for identification.)

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the
bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull--you can just
barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed,
the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one--I didn't
know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull
this way.

You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get
over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on
everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was
ever moved or picked up.

There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two
recopies. We printed a bunch of them.

Mr. BALL. Is this the same picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there
either.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't show it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box.

Mr. BALL. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is
Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit
B."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit
B," for identification.)

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing
west, and this one here is facing east.

Mr. BALL. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the
camera facing west?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Exhibit B is what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Facing east.

Mr. BALL. You are facing east?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those
pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on
every one of those.

Mr. BALL. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your
Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken,
they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the
northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded
everything up and carried it over there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures
of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots
apiece.

Mr. BALL. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was
located?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the
gun?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, I don't.

Mr. BALL. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as
"Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the
gun--that was before anyone moved it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you have another shot of that other picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, we took two from the same location when we was up
on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it
up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are
all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on
different exposures.

Mr. BALL. You took some other pictures, didn't you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before any of them were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That picture right there is the one that shows them,
and the other pictures show them before they were moved.

Mr. BALL. You mean Exhibit A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A and B.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a
shot of those boxes in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This one, Exhibit A, shows that--this is the
exact--now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the
indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved,
and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or
another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known
what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print--picked out a
better print.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the way they were piled up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, just exactly like that.

Mr. BALL. And you say there is an indentation on that box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That shows in the picture.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it
look a little heavier?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. There was an indentation in the box, was there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them
all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers--that was carried
from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is
another box that was taken off of this stack--this stack right here.

Mr. BALL. Is it shown in the picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It will show on another negative.

Mr. BALL. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by
"another box taken from this stack here."

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box right under this.

Mr. BALL. Right under what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right under this box.

Mr. BALL. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean
the little Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. There are two boxes stacked up here--here's one, and
here's one.

Mr. BALL. Were they both Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these
books was underneath.

Mr. BALL. It's marked "books"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box.

Mr. BALL. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked
"Rolling Readers"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were they taken from?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there.

Mr. BALL. Where were they stacked in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was
moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place----

Mr. BALL. Did you take this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted.

Mr. BALL. That's after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints
right there.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved
other than those you have showed me?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just these two.

Mr. BALL. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A
and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have probably got one down there I can get you that
is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get
it for you.

Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before
they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as
"Exhibit D," was that taken by you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they
were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust
on every box.

Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw
them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with
reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the
left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window
sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Where is your other picture--and I will show you? See
this box right here--this box?

Mr. BALL. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B,
you can read it right here--it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling
Readers."

Mr. BALL. That says 10.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling
Reader--it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up
there, they go by this right here, this little print. Now, this box
was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it
is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top
box.

Mr. BALL. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is Exhibit B.

Mr. BALL. It was on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right
there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned
up on end.

Mr. BALL. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a
description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is
stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in
this other print. You can't see it in this print.

Mr. BALL. What other print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your
exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your
negative.

Mr. BALL. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in
Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. Wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to Exhibit
B, does it show a box on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box--the Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. BALL. That picture was taken before the box was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the
Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And underneath that was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Another Rolling Reader box?

Mr. BALL. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A box marked "books".

Mr. BALL. It was larger in size?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was larger in size.

Mr. BALL. Than the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on
its end or on its side?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along
here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this
print--this is just a bad print.

Mr. BALL. When you say "in this," what is it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This is Exhibit--what is it?

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit A.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A--it was standing on end.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit A--can you tell me looking at Exhibit A
whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of
the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the
center, or over at the right.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking
towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. How close to the edge of the sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right at the edge.

Mr. BALL. Right at the edge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box
shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas
School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were
fired at President Kennedy.

Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified
in Exhibit A is shown in that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the top corner.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Have you got a ballpoint pen?

(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by
Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the
right of the window as you stand looking out of the window.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It would be these boxes back over in here--it would be
the top of those boxes.

Mr. BALL. How far were they away from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I would have to look at the measurements--I have the
measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that
picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one.

Mr. BALL. You are referring to Exhibit A?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. And it is the row of boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's
all it is.

Mr. BALL. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was.

Mr. BALL. Let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the
Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the
people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle
an "X" circle and mark it out here--mark "X" and the other circle a "Y"
circle.

(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by
Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X"
circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window
sill itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Sitting right on the sill.

Mr. BALL. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y"
circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the
window.

Mr. BALL. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, on A and B.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there--in the southeast corner of the
building--folded.

Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper--I don't know what it was.

Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top
two were Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.

Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that
said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures--one of the shots
after the duplicate shot.

Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from
the FBI called me down--I can't think of his name, and he wanted an
approximate location of where the paper was found.

Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water
pipes in the corner there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper
wrapping?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it--right here.

Mr. BALL. Was it folded over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long
and it was doubled over.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know--I picked it up and dusted it and they
took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have
seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Mr. BALL. Was it near the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was east of the window.

Mr. BALL. Over in the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the
building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where
it was.

Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders.

Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was.
There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of
tape on it to preserve it.

Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print.

Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small.

Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with
some paper?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have--it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it
just strictly for fingerprinting.

Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over
it--I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You lifted a print off of a box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and
it was, I believe, we have it that it was--I can read the measurements
off of one of these things--how far it was.

Mr. BALL. Fine, do that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was 16-1/2 inches from the--from this wall over here
(indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which wall are you talking about?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was from the south wall of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was
moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The box from which you lifted the prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. That box never was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. And you took a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of
it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time--they were
with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and
help us in case they were needed.

Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery--they were with me all the time
over in that one corner.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.

Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was
found?

(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. That would be directly south?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be directly south of where the box was.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast
corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is 16 inches from the south wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you lifted a print there off of this box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And now, is that shown in the picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the
picture? Describe what you see there.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it
would be the northwest corner of the box.

Mr. BALL. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A palm.

Mr. BALL. It was a palm print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it show the direction of the palm?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. West.

Mr. BALL. It would be made with the hand----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With the right hand sitting on the box.

Mr. BALL. And the fingers pointed west, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that is the outline shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show--did you attempt to
show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; could I?

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Did I do this?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the
direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm
print was made?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm
print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; just the palm print.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of
the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J.
B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you take a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. All right--it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper
sack that was sitting there in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.)

There are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. That
was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a
shot--I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is
marked--it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the
third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building.
That was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those
chicken bones and all that mess was in there too.

Mr. BALL. Is the sack shown there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right
there.

Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it shows--it has some chicken bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. None outside the sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put
right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which
shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. And that's your No. 7.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's the third row over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows--it would
be--one, two, three.

Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street--you mark it.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel
Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the
southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the
paper sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke
Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one
of the boxes; did you see anything like that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in
one of these pictures, if it is.

Mr. BALL. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by
numbers, did you not?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge
to the sidewalk, didn't you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many feet?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Let me see--61 feet from the window ledge to the
sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that
no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call
him, if you want to.

Mr. BALL. Well, I already have taken some of them.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of
them--it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more
would make any difference. This is out of a master set--all of these
pictures you have here.

Mr. BALL. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the
position they were in.

Mr. BALL. It is?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes--not--this was after they were moved, but I put
them back in the same exact position.

Mr. BALL. Were they that close--that was about the position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number,
which will be "Exhibit J."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put
them back in the same position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit J, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here.
Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You want 1 marked on this box?

(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the
box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And outline the indentation with a circle.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that
which is shown in the circle on 3?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. That's the only one?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured
he might have stacked them up.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I
told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned
around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I
dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and
started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of
that box.

Mr. BALL. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that
box in your crime lab?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning
and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our
evidence and I haven't seen it since.

Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's
print.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard
before you moved it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it
and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner
of this box down there.

Mr. BALL. They just took the top part of the box down there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it
back--that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I
don't know what was going on.

Mr. BALL. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit
J----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This picture has the palm print on it.

Mr. BALL. It has the palm print--it had been removed and had been
identified and brought back and put in the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It had been brought back and put in the box and as
being Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found.

Mr. BALL. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes
back where you first saw them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before the boxes were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And before the palm print was identified?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken
bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was
found?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, no prints.

Mr. BALL. Or the two-wheeler truck?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. No prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. You dusted around there for them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I dusted everything around that area. There was just
smears and smudges on the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Did you dust the rifle?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I
didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and
they worked on it down there at the lab.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the measurements of the boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have all the measurements.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Down at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Let's take Exhibit J--how did the height of the little
Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the
box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than
the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want
to mark it "4"--the box in the window?

Mr. BALL. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches
lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other
subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him.

Mr. STERN. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think
it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes
were placed that way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A good gun rest.

Mr. STERN. In that arrangement?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, it was a good gun rest.

Mr. STERN. With the box in front lower than the box behind?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In other words, it's like this--you see--it would be
down on a level like this--it shows where the butt of the gun was up
behind him here. He was down like this--nobody could see him from the
street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because
everybody would be looking right at him.

Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper that you saw--you saw the
wrapper--tell me about how big that paper bag was--how long was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3-1/2 to 4 feet long.

Mr. BALL. The paper bag?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how wide was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 8 inches.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it
will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read
it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your
signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Whichever is the easiest for you.

Mr. BALL. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course,
but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I will read it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. She will notify you.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.



TESTIMONY OF C. N. DHORITY

The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present.


Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before
the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. DHORITY. C. N. Dhority.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. DHORITY. Detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to
the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you
not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to come up here and give your
testimony?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to
your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you
not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with
the Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and
lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the
rest of the time.

I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946.

Mr. BALL. What department do you work with?

Mr. DHORITY. I work for Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Homicide?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Homicide Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Since 1955.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Was that the time you usually went to work?

Mr. DHORITY. No, I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work.

Mr. BALL. And you went to work at the main office of the Police
Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You arrived at about 2 p.m.?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually work with another detective?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes. H. H. Blessing.

Mr. BALL. Was he on duty that day with you?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been
in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether
he was there that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you
came to work?

Mr. DHORITY. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a
patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau.

Mr. BALL. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to
work?

Mr. DHORITY. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all
ringing.

Mr. BALL. And did you later see Lee Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what time was the first time you saw him?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall exactly what time it was--he was in Captain
Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit
in a group where Oswald was questioned?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect
to the investigation of the President's assassination?

Mr. DHORITY. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got
Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought
him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him.

Mr. BALL. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during
the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time?

Mr. DHORITY. About 6:30. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. You two men were with him?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't
there; some other witnesses?

Mr. DHORITY. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup
room.

Mr. BALL. At the showup room?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of them?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time?

Mr. DHORITY. Whaley, that's a cabdriver?

Mr. BALL. The cabdriver.

Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe that was that night--I was thinking that
was the next day.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company
down there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk
to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall the names.

Mr. BALL. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters,
were you not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle--a detective?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--he could have been--there was quite a few
officers there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what occurred at the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the
four-man lineup.

Mr. BALL. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I wasn't holding the showup. I was just
with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did
that.

Mr. BALL. What did McWatters say to you?

Mr. DHORITY. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and
said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he
believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he
identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective
Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the
transfer as his transfer.

Mr. BALL. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Right after he had made an identification?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by
McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please?

Mr. DHORITY. [Examined instrument referred to.]

Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit
from Mr. McWatters?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on
the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and
picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man
was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was
not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This
man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight."

Now, you read that, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man
that he had seen before doing what--did he tell you?

Mr. DHORITY. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he
picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man.

I don't know whether you've talked to him or not.

Mr. BALL. Yes, I have.

Mr. DHORITY. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you
talk to him--he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say,
"Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else.

Mr. BALL. Well, what I want to know is this--he identified Oswald, but
did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had
done?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought
he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some
man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the
President had been shot?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know exactly for word to word--it's in the
affidavit there.

Mr. BALL. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is
that right?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were
walking back across the street to the bus, he said, "Well, I think he
went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner."

Mr. BALL. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says:

"The State of Texas, County of Dallas

"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County,
State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters,
2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit
Company.

"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today,
November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No.
1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston.
I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew
the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her
if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me
the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never
did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I
don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man
I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my
bus with my punch mark."

Is that about what McWatters told you?

Mr. DHORITY. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit
from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with
him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on
Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No.
004459?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did he tell you about that?

Mr. DHORITY. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and
showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the
transfer.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver
to somebody?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of the night or day was that?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I
took them up to the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All of them or one of them?

Mr. DHORITY. No; he told me to bring him one back.

Mr. BALL. You brought one back in an envelope?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right?

Mr. DHORITY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's
hands and his face?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who made them?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well
as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you attend another showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. DHORITY. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the
McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there.

Mr. BALL. That was the same day?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there.

Mr. BALL. What was her first name?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were two of them--I don't recall for sure--as
well as I remember--it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BALL. There were two girls--Virginia and Jeanette?

Mr. DHORITY. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from
Virginia, as well as I recall it.

Mr. BALL. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff
region someplace, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who sent you out there?

Mr. DHORITY. Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. DHORITY. C. W. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And what address did you go to?

Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who did you see there?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there,
but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette
Davis.

Mr. BALL. And, did you talk to them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did they give you anything?

Mr. DHORITY. Virginia gave me a .38 hull.

Mr. BALL. Did she tell you where she got it?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe that she said that she found it in her front
yard, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. DHORITY. We carried them down to the police department and took
affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup.

Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of the night?

Mr. DHORITY. The lineup--I imagine was about 7:30.

Mr. BALL. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Who else was in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have that?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't hold the lineup.

Mr. BALL. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in
your report?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't have a report showing any numbers.

Mr. BALL. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a
showup at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you
say to these people?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the
showup, and they both were----

Mr. BALL. I know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and
there was other people there at the same time looking at them.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. I think they did.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody
before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them
before you brought them down?

Mr. DHORITY. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them
and to take them down to a showup.

Mr. BALL. Down to a showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them?

Mr. DHORITY. Did I say anything to them?

Mr. BALL. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall saying anything to them at all.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?

Mr. DHORITY. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well
as I remember.

Mr. BALL. "Looked like the man"--looked like the man what?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I
remember. It's in the affidavit.

Mr. BALL. Who took the affidavit?

Mr. DHORITY. I took the one from Virginia, I believe.

Mr. BALL. And who took the one from Jeanette?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe Brown took that one.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to
you, that Virginia gave you?

Mr. DHORITY. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found
an empty shell--did she tell you she found an empty shell--Jeanette
Davis?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--it seems like she told me she had found
one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Gave it to the police that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is
that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day?

Mr. DHORITY. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked
as Exhibits Nos.--Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A,"
and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's
deposition.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits
Nos. A and B," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told
us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything more you did that day?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of
telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall--there was
so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup,
didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there.

Mr. BALL. Were you present?

Mr. DHORITY. I was present--what it was--they wanted me to take the
cabdriver's--me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the
station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was
a showup--the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in
there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also
there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling]
S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe there was--there was two cabdrivers there and
I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us
they identified him.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald
was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be Sunday, November 24.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, on--I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves
and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. DHORITY. And Mr. Holmes.

Mr. BALL. And Holmes is what?

Mr. DHORITY. Of the Post Office Department.

Mr. BALL. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office?

Mr. DHORITY. About 9:30 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there?

Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain
Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there
in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in.

Mr. BALL. What was said there in Fritz' office that day--do you
remember any of the conversations?

Mr. DHORITY. There was a lot of conversation.

Mr. BALL. What did they talk about--the people in there?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to
him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him--I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to
him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I
remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. DHORITY. I couldn't remember all that was said.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Was your deposition taken before?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By Mr. Hubert?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know--it was some FBI man, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think
it was kind of cool--one of his sweaters.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I
left the office.

Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz'
office that morning?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I didn't have my handcuffs on him.

Mr. BALL. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him--did
he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Fritz gave you instructions to do what?

Mr. DHORITY. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and
get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in.

Mr. BALL. Is that what you did?

Mr. DHORITY. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and
was in the process of backing it up there--in fact--I was just about
ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and
Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door.

Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned
around to see--backing it up--still had the car moving it along and I
saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I
thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand
come out and I heard the shot.

Mr. BALL. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; beside Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle?

Mr. DHORITY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Any questions?

Mr. ELY. Yes, I have one or two.

I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were
present at three of them and I have taken one by one--the first one was
at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald.
Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really.

Mr. ELY. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance
compared with Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't study it.

Mr. ELY. And you don't remember what they were wearing either?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at
that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at
the other three, as far as you can remember?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall.

Mr. ELY. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice,
in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people
present could hear who he was choosing?

Mr. DHORITY. No; he did not--it was very low.

Mr. ELY. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they
couldn't hear?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. What about the other two people, did they indicate their
choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly?

Mr. DHORITY. It was also quietly.

Mr. ELY. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two
were saying?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification,
did you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other
men in that lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated
their choices to you?

Mr. DHORITY. Just standing there by them--very quietly told me.

Mr. ELY. In more or less the same procedure as the other one?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual.

Mr. ELY. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley--I realize you
didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not
remember anything about that?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all--I sure
don't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about
something?

Mr. DHORITY. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and
made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all
handcuffed--it was something like that--I can't recall for sure, but as
far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like
that.

Mr. ELY. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain
Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could
you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on
Friday evening?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't have any idea.

Mr. ELY. Do you know about how long you were there?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. None at all?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m.
on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home?

Mr. DHORITY. That sounds about right.

Mr. ELY. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on
Friday night?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning
when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time--did he
seem calm or excited?

Mr. DHORITY. Very calm.

Mr. ELY. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the
same?

Mr. DHORITY. He was very calm and fresh.

Mr. ELY. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the
conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean,
special with regard to newspapermen being present--were the corridors
filled with newspapermen--do you recall how much of a crowd was there?

Mr. DHORITY. When?

Mr. ELY. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening.

Mr. DHORITY. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had
to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There
wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office,
cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way
through.

Mr. ELY. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up.

Mr. DHORITY. The only other thing that I had to do with that that
we didn't go into--now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the
hospital.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very,
very weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the
only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction
then----

Mr. BALL. He was unconscious, was he?

Mr. DHORITY. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the
operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain
Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the
hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of
the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that
he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone
and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at
Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose
to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to
you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it
if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and
in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the
Commission.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I will just waive my signature.

Mr. BALL. All right. Fine. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims.

Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation?

Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department?

Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2,
1948.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and educated and what you have done before you went with the
police department?

Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to
school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called
Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and
joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I
came to work down here when I was 23.

Mr. BALL. With the police department?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long?

Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?

Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but
because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early
because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart
when the President arrived.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?

Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.--Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called
Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an
accident.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day?

Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland
Hospital, so we did.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry
was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the
Depository Store, down to the Book Store.

Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back
to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I
couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone
in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation
from where the shot had been fired.

Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill
Decker rode back with us.

Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the
building.

Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.

Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You heard something about it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that.

Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you
to go there?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and
proceeded to the building, went in the building.

Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in?

Mr. SIMS. The front door.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following
was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came
from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and
Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Do you think you heard that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the
shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't
have went directly to the Book Store like we did.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the
information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor
of that building."

"Which building?"

"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."

Do you know whether you could have heard that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir.
We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our
radio on.

Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator.

Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the
third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.

Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the
building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator.

Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight
elevator?

Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers
there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor,
actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go first?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant
Revill was there, I believe.

Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with
us.

Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.

Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover
work.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor
and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room
and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers
on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if
we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh
floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't
been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone
hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went
back to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the
hulls?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls
had been found.

Mr. BALL. And you could hear them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I
remember.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?

Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I
don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the
sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it
would be the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or
four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the
wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.

Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got
there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I
have his name here someplace.

Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I
don't know who all.

Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls
or not?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was
Detective Studebaker that works for him.

Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker.

Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.

Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.

Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same
position as when you had first seen them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth
floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had
found the rifle over by the stairway.

Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building?

Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the
building.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by
some paper.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that
location?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who took that picture?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.

Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city
hall.

Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of
significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?

Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much
attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of
where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's
where it was.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the
east?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know
there was some loose paper there.

Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed
Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were
found.

Mr. BALL. To stay there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by
the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the
wrapper to the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between
the boxes and the window.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a
couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the
window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window
about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the
window--what position they were on the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding
area there.

Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I
think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a
minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we
went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson
and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there,
I believe.

Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the
rifle was found?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were
located on the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.

Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.

Mr. BALL. There were three hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?

Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope.

Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or
not.

Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up?

Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there
and he held the envelope open.

Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were,
I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there
for fingerprints.

Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition
out of the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have
to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently
about 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent
word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff
and then we went to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out
in the corridor there.

Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas
School Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street.

Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are
located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's
see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.

Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is.

Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that
time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's?

Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full
of people and I think----

Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people.

Mr. BALL. What people?

Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there,
all I know is that there was a lot of people.

Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that
time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't
remember.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a
lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was
up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot,"
and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that
had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker?

Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has
been in the office there for several years.

Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the
Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer
Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd
and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation
room.

Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr.
Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and
Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory
as to what was said in that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.

Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there
at that time.

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his
name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not
complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name
and where he worked and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "No."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure
what questions he did ask him.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on
that evening.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were
there then?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself
then.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and
didn't he ask to be more comfortable?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be
more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or
something of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he
could put his hands in front of him.

Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he
wasn't handcuffed?

Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that
commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed
in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI
took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we
took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from
about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the
interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept.

Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in
Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until
showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time
or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right
next door.

Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's
just a hall separating them.

Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup,
did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him
about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him
being in the service and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at
4:05?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was.

Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in
Russia?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office
and and before the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and
I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of
the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in
Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the
President, what do you mean?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.

Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death,
what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk
about it.

Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any
knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?

Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any
knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?

Mr. SIMS. None at all.

Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did
you say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say
he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything
over there except the weather.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion
about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him
about it.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't
talk about her much.

Mr. BALL. Or his children?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a
brother or not.

Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room
at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that
first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room
and also went to Irving, I believe.

Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that
afternoon, around 3:30.

Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out
he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving,
Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time?

Mr. SIMS. At 4:05.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police
officers.

Mr. BALL. What two police officers?

Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry.

Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him
down?

Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor?

Mr. SIMS. Third floor.

Mr. BALL. On the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take him?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you
go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the
elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement
of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover
room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And would you describe it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the
officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the
squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2
or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a
cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the----

Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?

Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something
like this here.

Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.

Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.

Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the
showup so we went with them.

Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald
and this jailer.

Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?

Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know
how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know.

Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. SIMS. All right.

Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the
Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3
was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don
Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.

Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these
fellows look like?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and
about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue
eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has
blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.

Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is
26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion,
I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the
audience?

Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience
part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few
questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the
first showup?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in
our office conducted the first showup.

Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age
and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just
a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?

Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and
what he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted
natural.

Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a
T-shirt on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the
next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something
about a T-shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.

Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the
showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the
witnesses out there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this
showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.

Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.

Mr. BALL. At 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald
some more.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald
took place?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20,
so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain
Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the
time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office
beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were
handcuffed or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the
interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you
heard there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he
told Captain Fritz or the agents either.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when
Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or
whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in
Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him
questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their
names--I don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?

Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city
hall.

Mr. BALL. And you took him where?

Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.

Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?

Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the
first one.

Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.

Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately,
and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police
department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.

Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or
things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?

Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he
had a white T-shirt on underneath that.

Mr. BALL. Underneath that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.

Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the
officers were, as far as their clothes.

Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they
have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't
have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I
don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I
conducted the second showup.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one,
two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there
and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where
they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience
side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers
assigned to these people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned
to the second showup.

Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald,
R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.

Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.

Mr. BALL. The same numbers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same men?

Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at
6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint
was signed by Fritz that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And who was present?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and
Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else
was there--I don't know who else was present.

Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave
Johnston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder
complaint?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked
to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed
against him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what murder?

Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to
your records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr.
Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.

Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling]
B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.

Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?

Mr. SIMS. No. 1----

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was three?

Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his address?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.

Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.

Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who
was out in front.

Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side?

Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and
ask the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how
differently he was dressed.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far
as I know.

Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described
before?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that
were in the audience side?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out
there--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the
witnesses at either of the three showups?

Mr. SIMS. Never did----

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. About what time was this?

Mr. SIMS. 7:55.

Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald
for about another half hour.

Mr. BALL. And were you present?

Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I
don't know if he was in there all the time or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this
period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald,
didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was what time?

Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record
here and see [checking his record referred to].

Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.

Mr. BALL. After the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.

Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?

Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.

Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in
the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What did you find?

Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of
.38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left front?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.

Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness'
examination.

Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it
on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket
he had that in.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and
placed it in an envelope for identification.

Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain
Fritz' desk.

Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?

Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.

Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did
you do with those?

Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.

Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't
think I talked with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?

Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his
punch-card.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the
transfer?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on
the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but
I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks
about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe,
identify his transfer.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the
busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.

Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his
hands.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.

Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?

Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I.
identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the
top.

Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr.
Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened
after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?

Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the
crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. What did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.

Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't
know for sure.

Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came
in, he's in charge of the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. And what did he do?

Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.

Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes
made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."

Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?

Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.

Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.

Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?

Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. Of whose face?

Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?

Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.

Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted
a good long while--I don't know how long.

Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I
guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do
that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations
then for the paraffin tests.

Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later
than 10 o'clock that day?

Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office
there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his
face.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets
on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?

Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.

Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he
was there in the office?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.

Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz'
office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly
afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there,
came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front
of the stage at the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?

Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.

Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.

Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?

Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.

Mr. BALL. For the press?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they
call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room
is--the assembly room.

Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.

Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.

Mr. BALL. And what did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with
him.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer?

Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5
minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have
been about, I guess, about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him
down there--what were his exact instructions?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?

Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police
assembly room.

Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz'
office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the
showup room?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * *
shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz'
office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the
showup room."

Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.

Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.

Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?

Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us
instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to
do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."

Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald,
wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?

Mr. SIMS. He told them "no."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of
them hollering at him--that's all I remember.

Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what?

Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him.

Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on
November the 23d.

Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there.

Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee
Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for
questioning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the
U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. And that was all.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the
office during the interrogation."

Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.

Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and
Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's
room at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there?

Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.

Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one?

Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something
of that nature. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. A paper clip?

Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or
something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I
know, the room was clean.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?

Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and
left at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well----

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald
case?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?

Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.

Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. From the jail.

Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at
7:15 to the jail.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that
interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. Over the television.

Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might
go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?

Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with
reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I
believe we ought to do that.

You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when,
Mr. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing
of Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.

Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?

Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of
you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears
as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this
memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the
things occurred?

Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?

Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was
prepared?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific
figure--is this because you had some record of these times?

Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.

Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the
two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your
statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is
that right?

Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?

Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be
over here.

Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.

Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of
their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel
file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.

Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city
prisoners?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.

Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age,
5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10",
169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this
was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.

Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the
two?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our
identification jacket--these are their descriptions.

Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their
description?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the
School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred
just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for
fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain
Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain
Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving,
Tex."

Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up
and in what context the name was given?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at
the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.

Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he
gave it to him?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was
missing.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their
jobs after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.

Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned?
Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?

Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05
on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either
you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells,
and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to
your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at
that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.

Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time
of his arrest?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.

Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the
ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol
shells--cartridges--did you comment on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all.

Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember
what I asked or what he said.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday
and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his
demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was
conducting himself?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I
have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.

Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what
questions he didn't?

Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the
questions.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the
course of the day?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked
him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things
of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.

Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?

Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it
was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a
lawyer, and things of that nature.

Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?

Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye,
and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he
said he deserved being hit in the eye.

Mr. STERN. Why was that?

Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's
what he told us.

Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?

Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up
in New York.

Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to
me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.

Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at
any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the
interrogations? Or showups?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12
that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about
him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick.

Mr. STERN. Calm?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and
other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the
interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.

Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was
crowded.

Mr. STERN. With officials?

Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and
city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials.

Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in
Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of
the interrogations.

Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked
all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the
course of the same interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there
wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to
him and more or less ask him questions.

Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the
corridor, as to people who were not officials?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.

Mr. STERN. Because of the----

Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen.

Mr. STERN. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when
they were installed?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed.

Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of
this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when
you brought him to and from?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when
we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup,
and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain
Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall.

Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would
people try to ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would.

Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall--ever?

Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.

Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him
in any way, or did he also take this calmly?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different.

Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being
the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete
self-control?

Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he
still was calm and alert and everything.

Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night
when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty
snappy. He made some quick answers--I don't know what all it
involved--he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I
believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in
control?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of
expressing his feelings?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that
time--at that press interview.

Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you.

That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two.

Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You
took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday
morning.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth
floor--about what time?

Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20.

Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the
fourth floor at 12:23.

Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe--I'm not positive about this, but I believe
that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked
out of the jail again after 12:23?

Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day.

Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30
again--a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know
anything about that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out
later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at
12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on
the 23d.

Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for
illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your
deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine.

Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department
of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and
Saturday, November 23?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th.

Mr. BALL. That was the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can
read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you
can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as
you have here testified as she has taken it down.

Do you have any preference on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.



TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony
in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case
hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of
the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you
remember that he asked about those?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just
how you came to see those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the
seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the
hulls had been found.

So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went
to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were
laying there by the window on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab
to take pictures of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can
remember?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive
about that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were
taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.

Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the
pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I
believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day
dusted them for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically
remember what you did with those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your
recollection as to what happened to the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my
partner, and refreshed my memory.

Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day
finished with them and to take possession of them.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I did that.

Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them?

Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them?

Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in
his office.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say.
Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to
the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city
hall that afternoon?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or
not he had any record?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I
was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few
minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on
Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to
Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who was there?

Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am
not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain
Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or
either gave it to him.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did
with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?

Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to
where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we
was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be
sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back
later to where the hulls were.

Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being
dusted for fingerprints?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?

Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can
remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to
preserve the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through
with the pictures?

Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.

Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did,
or Boyd tell you?

Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too
sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz
and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the
rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did
that.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were
the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?

Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete
understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection,
you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on
Monday?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the
hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I
talked to him.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and
bring them to the office."

And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had
said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told
me this.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back
on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain
Fritz told you on this past Monday?

Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was----

Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or
Monday?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.

Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had
told you to get the hulls and bring them down?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on
April 6 or 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact
as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually
putting these shells in an envelope?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently
remember putting that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your
pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I
remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or
pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the
desk here?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't
remember what size.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has
envelopes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope
in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but
he was there when I took possession of the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. He was?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab
officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the
envelope in which they were?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical
possession?

Mr. SIMS. In this envelope.

Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them
there on the desk in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.

Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would
you have used?

Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS.

Mr. BELIN. RMS?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope
that I put them in.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the
hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the
hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.

Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the
hull?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end.

Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end.

Mr. BELIN. The spent end?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be
sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do.

Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the
door?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your
right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to
sign the other deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.

Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir.



TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL

The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. STOVALL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you please state your name for the record?

Mr. STOVALL. Richard S. Stovall.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address, please?

Mr. STOVALL. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. STOVALL. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Approximately 10 years--it will be 10 years this May.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to
tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has
done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know
something about you.

Can you tell me that, please?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a
frame house over here on West Page--329 West Page. I went to grade
school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner
Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school
at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I
went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I
quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came
back to summer school Tech and finished.

After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs
I had been with for just a short period of time--I went to work at the
post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I
believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post
office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since
then.

Mr. BALL. You are a detective, are you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You work in plain clothes?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in this particular department?

Mr. STOVALL. I have been in this department since approximately August
15, 1962--about 18 months, I guess.

Mr. BALL. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Do you work under Captain Fritz?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty,
in view of the President's visit to Dallas?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work.

Mr. BALL. At what time was that?

Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that
morning and heard the deal on television.

Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I
believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for
work and went on in.

Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there.

I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the
same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people
standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even
take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything.

While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the
Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there
at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back
there and talked to him briefly.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his
identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee
Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the
time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A.
Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling]
H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure.

And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that
was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the
door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address
in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving.

That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an
address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time.

Mr. BALL. The captain had you get another man to go with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us.

Mr. BALL. Is he a detective?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is.

Mr. BALL. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and
parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to
meet some county officers out there.

Mr. BALL. Why were you to meet the county officers out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had
to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us.

Mr. BALL. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you meet some county officers there?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we
did--after we got out there; yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house
address.

Mr. BALL. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down
the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they
could see us parked in the car down the street.

Mr. BALL. And what county officers did you meet out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two--one
name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name.

Mr. BALL. How about Walthers--does Buddy Walthers sound like it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the third one.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then after you met them, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house
and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and
two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other
officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could
see some people inside the house and we could see through the front
door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine
came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are
here about this mess that's on television."

Mr. BALL. What did you tell her about that?

Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the
house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but
if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be
necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house
and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I
searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There
are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you
have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom
there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified
that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division
of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search
the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time
I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which
would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking
to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina
suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they
were out of my sight then.

Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look
in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that
suggestion--what her reasons for it were?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into
the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the
two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't
tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in
what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the
record.)

Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record.

Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this
blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other
end was open.

Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. A white what?

Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that
you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large
packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told
me----

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had
pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and
Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from
Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took
from the house.

Mr. BALL. Give me that list first.

Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.]

Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got
back into the squad car?

Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to
work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car
and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there.

Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went
over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is,
we went over it--this list here.

Mr. BALL. This list here?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken.

Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515
West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.?

Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was
made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police
department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it
consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition.

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for
identification.)

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l
[spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too.

Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of
refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you
have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those?

Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.]

Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you
can make an explanation for the record.

Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine.

Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and
A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken
from Marina's room?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those,
haven't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. STOVALL. On this list here--where it has 1963 Kodachrome
transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown
pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe,
came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the
other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but
I'm not sure which came from which place.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list
that have not been checked, were found?

Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on.

Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other
items--those other articles?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where
these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and
when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the
stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too.

Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are
not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can,
from your memory, just where you found those articles.

Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth
Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single--I'm not sure where they
came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have
listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector.

Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in
Marina's bedroom.

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them.

Mr. BALL. All right, very well.

Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know
it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got
listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth
pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10
inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector."
Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this.

These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone
projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed,
"Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph
records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom.

I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm
not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One
bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out
of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm
not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I
explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One
envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which
bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book."

We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall
taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the
particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's
the last one I don't have checked.

Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's
bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the
hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and
the kitchen and the den.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day.

Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the
stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there?

Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours, if that
long.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to
you about expecting you, or something of that sort?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked
on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified
ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about
this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television"
at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the
President's murder.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got
there.

Mr. BALL. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought
into the office?

Mr. STOVALL. They had brought him into the office after I was there.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes
when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he
said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought
he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or
television?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard
about it--I don't recall him saying that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time.
However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation
was.

Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into
our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside,
and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was
talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and
talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work
that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a
package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could
have been a rifle--is what she said. She said it was either in a brown
paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe
it was 6 when we got back to the office.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's
deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two
children.

Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery
Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them after that?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day--I didn't. We took them from there
into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office
up there.

Mr. BALL. Into which bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. Into the Forgery Bureau--we took them from the Homicide
Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we
could leave them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do the rest of that day?

Mr. STOVALL. After that we went--we called on the phone--Rose
did--trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's
brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald
had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally
located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where
Wesley Frazier was--he called the Irving Police Department and talked
to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was
and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he
couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15
or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police
Department out there.

Mr. BALL. You went out there and talked to him?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you also searched their home, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into
Dallas and took statements from them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I
don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started
back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church
with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about
halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the
station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain
from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley
Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so
we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that
time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the
phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30.

Mr. BALL. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier,
wasn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think,
when he finished running it.

Mr. BALL. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left
Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I
remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out
to Irving and left them.

Mr. BALL. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the
polygraph examination of Frazier, were you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And during this examination, did you have before you the
affidavit which Frazier had made?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. STOVALL. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator.

I might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way
mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is
investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being
given, and you can hear the questions and the answers.

Mr. BALL. Did you go home, then, after that?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home.

Mr. BALL. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home,
didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m.

Mr. BALL. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. From what judge?

Mr. STOVALL. From J. B. Brown, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Who went out on the search party?

Mr. STOVALL. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the
Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went
with us.

Mr. BALL. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police
Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time?

Mr. STOVALL. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one
there at the time.

Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you?

Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a
further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the
time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and
that we could search the house anytime we wanted to.

Mr. BALL. And did you search the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the
garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a
rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search
at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he
didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we
searched the garage and concentrated our search there.

Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the
only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage.
I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure--it's possible that
he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them
came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee
Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them
and they left.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean they left you in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their
house.

Mr. BALL. You have made a report of what you did that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report?

Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't
read this one.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of
your search on the 23d of November 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long?

Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1-1/2 or 2
hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough
search of the garage.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time?

Mr. STOVALL. To the garage?

Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to
make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we
didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the
whole house.

Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your
department as to what to look for?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with
you on that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is.

Mr. BALL. And where was that made?

Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to
be Oswald in the photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said,
"Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots
and the negatives to me.

Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the
photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house
holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on
his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots.

Mr. BALL. And the negatives?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous
photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we
took when we were there.

Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw?

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box
about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that.

Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them?

Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there
and letters and papers and photographs.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. STOVALL. One of them was--I think both of them were a kind of an
Army color--olive drab, whatever you call it.

Mr. BALL. And suitcases?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a
brown one.

Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material.

Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown,
is there any other color?

Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember--one of the brown ones
was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind
of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It
was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.

Mr. BALL. And were there three?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also.

Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard?

Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or
cardboard.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's
Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.

Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have
marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of
November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search
of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C
and D," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you
find there?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you
have already told us?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both
gone from the house when we left there.

Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took them down to where?

Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office.

Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the
investigation. I might add, there was--well, you have that on the
list--some property.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. STOVALL. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that
had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his
own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some
negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a
selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where
the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of
the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there
were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there
from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that
he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of
"A. Hidell" typed in on it.

Mr. BALL. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much
for coming over here.

Mr. STOVALL. Okay, thank you.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by.

Mr. STOVALL. I hope it was of some help to you.



TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS

The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April
3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. POTTS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. POTTS. Walter Eugene Potts.

Mr. BALL. What business or occupation are you in?

Mr. POTTS. I am a detective with the police department, homicide,
Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Since October 21, 1947.

Mr. BALL. And how long have you been with the homicide department?

Mr. POTTS. June 6, 1956.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where
you were educated and what you have done since then?

Mr. POTTS. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to
Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools
in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas--it's Crozier Tech now, but it
was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941,
and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love
Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in
Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down
there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I
worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I
went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I
was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also
the 505th there.

I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before
I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they
still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of
the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's
raised right here.

Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that was my day off.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?

Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim
Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to
1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and
Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you
heard about the President getting shot?"

You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I
turned on my car radio and there it was.

We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to
Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all
the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him
I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there
within the hour, which was around 2 or before.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there?

Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car
over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot
and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this
officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting
killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I
understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff."
That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office,
I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas
School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and
he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?"
And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce,
and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I
heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them
say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."

So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the
squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and
they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As
you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight
ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go
on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he
said, "I know that man."

He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book
Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him."
So did Arce--he said, "Yes, he works down there."

So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people
and we got them notarized.

Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty?

Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back
there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other
people--I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around
there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel,
and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and
he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are
going out to 1026 North Beckley."

He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished
taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain
Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's
room."

On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with
the name Alex Hidell and Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L.
Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the
homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us
and we went out there.

Mr. BALL. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time.
We went to the location and talked to the people there.

Mr. BALL. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. POTTS. B. L. Senkel.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. POTTS. And myself.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to where?

Mr. POTTS. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you got there?

Mr. POTTS. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.--I believe her name
was Johnson.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mr. POTTS. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. Earlene Roberts?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex
Hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who
we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and
there was a television----

Mr. BALL. Did you check their registration books?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--Senkel, I
think, or Cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book
and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the
living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's
the living quarters--it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of
the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man
that lives here. That's Mr. Lee--O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is
right here right off of the living room."

Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that
Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until
4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3.

Mr. BALL. You waited there in the home?

Mr. POTTS. We waited there in the living quarters.

Mr. BALL. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by
Lee?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got
the warrant.

Mr. BALL. Who brought the warrant out?

Mr. POTTS. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. BALL. The judge issued it, but who brought it out?

Mr. POTTS. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge
David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill
Alexander.

Mr. BALL. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, the judge was there in person.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill
Alexander--they all came in the same car.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. POTTS. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it
was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room,
and we took everything in there that we could find.

Mr. BALL. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room?

Mr. POTTS. Well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the
living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off
to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I
don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a
real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there
it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff
back there in.

Mr. BALL. How was it furnished?

Mr. POTTS. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if
remember, it might have had a chair--I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel,
Cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything
in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and
we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and
stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could
find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put
stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a
lot of stuff in it.

Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall the color of that bag.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought
it in, too?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could
find.

Mr. BALL. Were there curtains on the windows?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. BALL. Hanging on rods?

Mr. POTTS. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the
walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked
behind the blinds and everything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster?

Mr. POTTS. A .38 leather holster--I have a list there of all the stuff
we brought out of there.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr.
Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office.

Mr. BALL. You brought the stuff into the office?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A,"
for identification.)

Mr. POTTS. You can have that if you would like.

Mr. BALL. This will be two exhibits--A-1 and A-2.

(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits
A-l and A-2," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the
holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall asking her that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the
holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too
familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much
about it.

Mr. BALL. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil.

Mr. BALL. All right, go ahead.

Mr. POTTS. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it
and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing--and it had a diagram
of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to
me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in
Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand.

Mr. BALL. You brought all of this property to the city hall?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as
"Exhibits A-1 and A-2"?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more?

Mr. POTTS. Let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of
that night, up until--I don't recall what time I did leave there--it
was pretty late.

Mr. BALL. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission
Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley
address that day, do you remember?

Mr. POTTS. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of
the officers picked it up.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember where it was?

Mr. POTTS. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do--you don't know where it was kept?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But was it brought from the room?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and
here is Mr. Moore's.

Mr. BALL. What does that initial mean?

Mr. POTTS. That's my initial, "W. E. P."

Mr. BALL. And there is "11-22-63"--what does that mean?

Mr. POTTS. That means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of
there. At the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought
out in court that would be my initials right there--I recovered this.

Mr. BALL. Did you initial it right there in the room?

Mr. POTTS. We initialed it after we brought it to the station.

Mr. BALL. These are the initials of the men who were there with you?

Mr. POTTS. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner--"F. M.
T."--that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in
court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the
investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the
President?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning
and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone
conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. We were
swamped--I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru--all over was
just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept
most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald?

Mr. POTTS. I believe I did--was that the 23d--at 2:15 that afternoon on
the 23d, I was in on one.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. POTTS. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail
elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking
there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought
that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who is M. G. Hall?

Mr. POTTS. He is a detective in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And who is Charlie Brown?

Mr. POTTS. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau.
Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the
two that showed up then, but they might not have been.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the
men who were to be in the showup?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and
walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage
while the showup was conducted.

Mr. BALL. How was it conducted? Describe it.

Mr. POTTS. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup
stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black
nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the
person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They
brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went
in first--no, that's wrong--Lujan went on first, because he would be
No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up
there.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2.

Mr. BALL. What is Knapp's full name?

Mr. POTTS. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Detective Leavelle--now, I don't know who the witness
was that they were showing them to--the showup to.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Leavelle?

Mr. POTTS. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a
black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one
step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall
exactly what he asked them--It was just to get them to talk and
identify themselves. We conduct them different--sometimes we ask them
their names and their address and their occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. BALL. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; to the men on the stage.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear them?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I heard them answer.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald speak up or not?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on
a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was
complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and
I've got a T-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup.
He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of
commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody.

Mr. BALL. What kind of commotion was he making?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in
a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a
T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and
after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the
stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the
elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with
the show.

Mr. BALL. That's all you had to do with it?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were the appearances of the four men who came out?

Mr. POTTS. They were similar in size--I didn't pick them--I don't know
who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the
ages are a little different here.

Mr. BALL. What ages were they, do you know?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Horne was 17--he was born November 6, 1945, I believe
that's right.

Mr. BALL. John Thurman Horne?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born
October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born
February 15, 1937.

Mr. BALL. And do you have the addresses of these three men?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I do--now, I got the addresses off of--out of our
records bureau--off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they
gave a fictitious address or not.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. POTTS. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor.

Mr. BALL. 2942 Ann Arbor?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that's Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And what was he charged with--why was he in jail?

Mr. POTTS. Traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets.

Mr. BALL. Traffic tickets?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. POTTS. Yes--red lights and so on.

Mr. BALL. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for?

Mr. POTTS. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922
Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And he was in for investigation?

Mr. POTTS. Investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. BALL. Was he convicted?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I don't know anything about that.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he is now?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I have never seen those men since.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he was convicted or not?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. What about Lujan?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan--[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way
you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address
of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation
of violation of State narcotic laws.

Mr. BALL. And was he convicted, or do you know?

Mr. POTTS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted
of a felony?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. You know nothing about that?

Mr. POTTS. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first
time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation?

Mr. POTTS. That Presidential assassination--I think that's about all I
done on that.

Mr. BALL. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer--on the 25th of
November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I know that.

Mr. POTTS. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said,
"They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've
seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We
need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car
and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a
woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "Oswald has
just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went
back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came
on back on duty that day.

Mr. BALL. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer----

Mr. POTTS. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man.
He and Mr. Senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they
were in the lead car.

Mr. BALL. Senkel was?

Mr. POTTS. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in
the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about
this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me,
he said, "Let's go out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is
supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by
and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took
a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify
him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on
the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo
Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he
works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that
day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch
the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't
say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it
looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before
he heard the shots fired.

Mr. BALL. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are
testifying about?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own
handwritten notes?

Mr. POTTS. That's right--I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's
duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November,
being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3
of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in
the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15--as the next exhibit.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and
C," respectively, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much.

Mr. POTTS. You are certainly welcome.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and
sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the
Commission. You can tell me what you want to do.

Mr. POTTS. Oh, I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you
to sign.



TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK

The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. John P. Adamcik.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am 26.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to high school?

Mr. ADAMCIK. LaGrange, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. LaGrange High School?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and
came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was an assembler.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a
hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. You mean family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was
injured. That was the reason I got the discharge.

And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I
think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got
on the police department.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been in the police department ever since?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of
absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army
Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6
months.

Mr. BELIN. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. One-month-old baby.

Mr. BELIN. A month old baby. Boy or girl?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Boy.

Mr. BELIN. You must be pretty proud?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is his name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Mark Allen.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife taking good care of that baby?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were
you on duty on that date?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this.

Mr. BELIN. Not at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. You were off duty?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was at home, off duty.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get on duty that day?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard
of the assassination--I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock,
and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I
immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I
wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting
officers and we were asked--Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were
asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in
Irving, to the Paine residence.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald give them that address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the
address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification.

Mr. BELIN. What was the address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how
that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to
this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite
name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he
had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we
were told.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this?

Mr. ADAMCIK. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report?

Mr. BELIN. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection.

Mr. ADAMCIK. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be
approximately 2:30.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out
there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you didn't?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We
didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly
going over to see who was there.

We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we
could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we
didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with
these people or with Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you go with?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met
by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because
being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go
along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took
us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3
o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get
there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of
the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and
one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the
front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county
officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or
4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and
opened it up and asked us to come in.

Mr. BELIN. Who asked you to come in?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus--because Mrs. Paine was
in the house at the time standing next to them.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we started looking around the house. I think
Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They
asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out
who they were--and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I
just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around.

We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked
around.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see
her room?

Mr. ADAMCIK. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us
where the room was and showed us several things in the room.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. She didn't object at all. They were really very
cooperative.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked
her who she was.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey
Oswald?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes; I heard it asked.

Mr. BELIN. What was the answer given, if you remember?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did they take you out to the garage?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not me. They took two of--some of the officers. I think it
was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through
Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs.
Paine drew their attention to the garage.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about a rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the
garage at all.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we
called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked
them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the
people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we
told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course
our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs.
Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs.
Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some
arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember
correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's
husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard
the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help,
and they were surprised.

Mr. BELIN. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came
over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President
was shot?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present.

Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President
was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he
found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody
would be over there questioning them.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly,
and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they
found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.

Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.

Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had
two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.

Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police
Department?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand,
approximately?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.

Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff.
Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real
stiff. Just normal.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile
and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of
the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children
there. I left and went with her.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to
the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She
(Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house,
so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and
whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald
rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying
with her, and he rode to work with him that morning.

She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was
drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard,
across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something,
carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I
know we did, but I didn't take it.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.
That is all I remember her saying.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was
unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the
weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a
Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them
in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a
neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were
put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us,
and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer,
and we proceeded to go to the city police station.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office
and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery
bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited
a pretty good while.

By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying
to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for
the wait.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to
talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting
his sick daddy.

So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and
couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the
clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center,
and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was
there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had
him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from
him or question him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. However, I didn't go back over there and get him.

Mr. BELIN. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine,
Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same
evening.

Mr. BELIN. What did she say?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an
affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in
my presence.

I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the
rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her
saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she
didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in
the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually.

Mr. BELIN. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the
blanket was there?

Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers,
apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to
that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when
she said the last time was she saw it.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I
questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever
said.

I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe
she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the
blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That
would be in the affidavit, though.

Mr. BELIN. Now anything else happen there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit
from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably
took one from Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, the wife.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I
believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had
been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought
her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got
through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald,
Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and
Michael Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind
of had the feeling--I don't know how to explain it--just like this,
well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite
understand it, or something. She didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. What about Lee Oswald's brother?

Mr. ADAMCIK. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He
seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not to me, not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home,
and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant
McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used
his car, and he went along with me to take these people home.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything
more on the way home about the incident or not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that
Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home,
and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to
go back to Russia. I remember her saying that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian
to interpret a little bit.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time
I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back
there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us
originally.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the mother?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; the mother, she went back with us.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10
o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started
taking them to Irving, and got back about 10.

We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the office?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I
guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the
captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go in the interrogation room?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished
talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or
something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go
on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald.

I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the only two in there at that time?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either
fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left.
It was just a short period of time.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that took place there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask
him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. That he did or did not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia
and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long
he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it
okay, and that is just about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about the assassination at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the
assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We did.

Mr. BELIN. Like what kind of questions?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Like where were you at the time this assassination
occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he just keep quiet?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He just sat there and stared straight ahead.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't talk at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe that I did.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else there that did?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear anybody.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in
the morning.

Mr. BELIN. Ever see Oswald again?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview,
I believe. I didn't go down there.

Mr. BELIN. What interview?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I think they had--I don't know whether it was an interview
or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room.

Mr. BELIN. When would that have been?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It would have been about midnight.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other
men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning
about 10 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10,
I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and
Detective Moore--at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and
Stovall--asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back
to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant at this time?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe
B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up
the search warrant.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant.
One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they
were there.

I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery
shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted
to.

Mr. BELIN. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; some of the other officers did.

Mr. BELIN. What did they take?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment.
It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything.
I know they took some items.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; there weren't too many items the first day.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second day?

Mr. ADAMCIK. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went
mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I
think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went
through the house and garage.

Mr. BELIN. What did you take with you?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we picked up--I got a list of it, also, which we
turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and
pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the
garage.

Mr. BELIN. That was found in the garage?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Any comments about that at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it,
and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the
assassination."

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery
shopping.

Mr. BELIN. Did you show the picture to them later on?

Mr. ADAMCIK. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the
scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand.

Mr. BELIN. You weren't there when it was done?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, no other than--I didn't even begin to tell you what
all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his
stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot
of Russian, I think they were books on the Russian language, and some
vaccination certificates and stuff like that.

A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what
it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search
at all. I know that everything we--at the time, that we felt it was
important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and
Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been
some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted,
it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the
murder.

Mr. BELIN. Was an inventory made of the items taken?

Mr. ADAMCIK. There was. Yes; there was, definitely.

Mr. BELIN. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ADAMCIK. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for
all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't
get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there
probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a
document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's
invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No.
11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a
copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is.

Mr. BELIN. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I
believe you said that--who was the senior officer out there among you,
or wasn't there any?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting
the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective
Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the
previous day, he was spokesman for the group.

Mr. BELIN. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose?

Mr. ADAMCIK. With Rose.

Mr. BELIN. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S.
Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball
and let him introduce it in that deposition.

Mr. ADAMCIK. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was
out of the house trying to take care of the kids.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we
haven't discussed here?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the
search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we
didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and
myself went back to Irving--should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up
Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an
affidavit from him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking
the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the
affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in,
or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped.

Mr. BELIN. Did he know that it contained a rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times
previous to the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's
residence that day of the assassination?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and
I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President
got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald
worked, and knowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name
came into his mind immediately.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say it came into his mind?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He said, knowing about his background and all--I remember
just about what he said--that he knew that he would be asked to be
considered a suspect, and--or that we would consider him a suspect,
something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him
considered to be a suspect?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he
said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or
something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because
for some other reason.

Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It
is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his
words. I can look at it.

Mr. BELIN. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael
Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right; he did say that.

Mr. BELIN. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a
blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the
powersaw."

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked
up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting
equipment. Is that what he said?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President
was shot while he was at work, is that correct?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book
Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and
immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the
President?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what
he says in the affidavit?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, exactly.

Mr. BELIN. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President.
Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the
President?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't
call the FBI. He said he figured that--he did mention that the FBI knew
about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would
consider him a suspect without him having to call them.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took
this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end
of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down
there, luckily.

Mr. BELIN. Luckily you were off?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming
down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go
directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign
it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it,
whatever you want to do.

Mr. ADAMCIK. About how long would it be before it is ready?

Mr. BELIN. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on
to us?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I would kind of like to look at it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can
take a look at it.

Mr. ADAMCIK. Okay.



TESTIMONY OF HENRY M. MOORE

The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear
you here.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOORE. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter.

Mr. MOORE. Henry M. Moore.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore?

Mr. MOORE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Texas?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. MOORE. I am 39.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. MOORE. Five children.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife has her hands full with them?

Mr. MOORE. Sure does.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school here in Dallas?

Mr. MOORE. No; Ennis, Ennis High School.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. MOORE. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles.

Mr. BELIN. Were you a graduate from high school?

Mr. MOORE. No, I didn't graduate.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through high school?

Mr. MOORE. Eighth.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Went in the Service.

Mr. BELIN. Into the Armed Services?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Army or Navy?

Mr. MOORE. Paratroopers; Army.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Paratroopers?

Mr. MOORE. Three years.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get out?

Mr. MOORE. January 11, 1946.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that day?

Mr. MOORE. Very well.

Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. MOORE. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I
came to Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went
into the Service?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. You went direct from school to the Service?

Mr. MOORE. Shortly afterward.

Mr. BELIN. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Came to Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. MOORE. January 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your position there right now?

Mr. MOORE. Detective.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. When were you to report to work that day?

Mr. MOORE. Four; 4:00 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. When did you report for work that day?

Mr. MOORE. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town.

Mr. BELIN. How shortly after?

Mr. MOORE. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2.

Mr. BELIN. You reported down at the main police station?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't
know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's
room.

Mr. BELIN. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe that is right.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

Mr. MOORE. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes
may show a little closer time.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who got it?

Mr. MOORE. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go with you there, too?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who else went?

Mr. MOORE. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. You went to that address, and did the landlady--let me ask
you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already
inside.

Mr. BELIN. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived
there?

Mr. MOORE. I believe they had; yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. We searched his room.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Brought everything in the room to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. You made a list of what you found there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything in particular that you found there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks
located on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. MOORE. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MOORE. A holster.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of gun?

Mr. MOORE. .38 pistol, I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster?

Mr. MOORE. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun
from him earlier in the day.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else there that you can establish?

Mr. MOORE. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects?

Mr. BELIN. Some letters?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers.

Mr. BELIN. Pamphlets?

Mr. MOORE. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure,
though.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a
photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way,
how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. I only went one time.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know?

Mr. MOORE. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We
brought everything that was in the room.

Mr. BELIN. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked
on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or
receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of
the inventory here?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe it is.

Mr. BELIN. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might
state for the record that this appears to be--what was the last number
I gave there--it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record
that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known
in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280-286,
inclusive.

I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated
November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the
search. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. MOORE. No; I wouldn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not?

Mr. MOORE. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles
a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or
not that was there?

Mr. MOORE. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically
there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated
in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your
knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked
"Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex.,
dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do
you have any independent recollection of that being there?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except
you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from
there?

Mr. MOORE. Right.

Mr. BELIN. I also note that one of the items appears to be a World
Health Organization vaccination card, bearing the name of Lee Oswald,
with the name of the vaccinator as A. J. Hidell, post office box 30016,
New Orleans, La., with the date stamped June 8, 1963.

Do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards?

Mr. MOORE. Not specifically no.

Mr. BELIN. And it says that there is a passport there. Do you remember
that at all?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You remember specifically the passport?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is an application for a Texas driver's license,
which appears as No. 450. Do you remember that at all?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I do, since I have read the list. I remember the
driver's license application.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Commission Exhibit 426, and ask you to state if
you know what that is?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. MOORE. Application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. BELIN. You picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on
that day that you searched the residence at Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; you find my initials on the back of it, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Your initials, it says, HMM, 11-12-63. Those are your
initials?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; and date.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who FMT is, or are those initials there?

Mr. MOORE. I believe that will be F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. F. M. Turner?

Mr. MOORE. I believe. That is the only one I could think of it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right. About how long did you stay out there?

Mr. MOORE. Hour and a half, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. We drove back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Now I assume then that you went through the property and
marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with
the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can
think of offhand?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. The next day you reported for work about when?

Mr. MOORE. As soon after the Oswald shooting in the basement, as soon
as I could get there. I live out of town.

Mr. BELIN. Wait, that is when Oswald was shot. I am not talking about
Sunday. I am talking about Saturday. When did you search the Beckley
premises? On Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?

Mr. MOORE. Saturday. No; we searched it on Friday. Irving on Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. Irving on Saturday. When did you get to work on Saturday?

Mr. MOORE. I believe I came in around 10 that morning.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you worked in the office for a while?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did offhand?

Mr. MOORE. Answered the phone.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later
in the day to search the residence at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving?

Mr. MOORE. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Had a search warrant for that?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You found several items there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Made a list of those similar to this other list?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out
there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else?

Mr. MOORE. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave.
We had an Irving officer with us.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you to go ahead?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said
they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned
before we left.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there
that stands out in your mind?

Mr. MOORE. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did Rose show it to you out there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, he did; at the time he found it.

Mr. BELIN. Were you near him when he found it.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far away was he from you?

Mr. MOORE. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close.
Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet.

Mr. BELIN. What did Rose say to you when he found it?

Mr. MOORE. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and
commented on it.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed
it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office.

Mr. BELIN. You made another list of it?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did that day?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you bring in Michael Paine for taking an affidavit from
him, do you remember?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. Mr. Adamcik and I went out and brought--we went
back to the residence and brought him in later that day.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to him for a while?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then you took the affidavit?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then the next day was the 24th of November, Sunday. Were you
on duty Sunday morning?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get to work on Sunday?

Mr. MOORE. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. I am sure I worked around the office until the time that
Rose and I went to Ruby's apartment.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant for that?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. We went to Judge Joe B. Brown's residence and got the
search warrant.

Mr. BELIN. Is it pretty much standard procedure at the Dallas Police
Department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's
premises?

Mr. MOORE. More or less.

Mr. BELIN. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure
when you come to the door? Just what do you do?

Mr. MOORE. If we do not have a search warrant?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. MOORE. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If
we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or
things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not
have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house
anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then
in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way
that bears on this investigation?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister?

Mr. MOORE. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read
this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or
you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us
directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it?

Mr. MOORE. What is the procedure?

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you
sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the
court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of
your testimony here.

Mr. MOORE. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the
reporter.

Mr. BELIN. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read
it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting
in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at
the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; she can.

Mr. BELIN. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation.
Good-bye.



TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER

The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TURNER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?

Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas?

Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school?

Mr. TURNER. Finished.

Mr. BELIN. You finished high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy?

Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy?

Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard.

Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's
helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then
I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked
there until I came to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. TURNER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was your position?

Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3
minutes in front of the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department.

Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police?

Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose
name I do not remember.

Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President?

Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do
not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the
motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love
Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They
were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.

Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio?

Mr. TURNER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on?

Mr. TURNER. Channel 2.

Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there
was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some
of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and
forth.

Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or
also on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual
motorcade, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was
going?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio
conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got
to Main and Houston?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry.

Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of
anything out of the ordinary?

Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately,
at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like
Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with
him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men
to get over there and cover off the area around this building there
until some investigators could get there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building.
I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said
cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car?

Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed?

Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car.

Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the
crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car?

Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the
crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we
come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately?

Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about
a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it
happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we
drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train
that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched
this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were
already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is
when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there?

Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar?

Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?

Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it
was, sitting there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they
heard the shots came from?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did
you talk to anyone?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly,
and who else?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.

Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?

Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a
warehouse like.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from
west of the building at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when
the shots came?

Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was
at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the
building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe
Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in
the warehouse.

Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him?

Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their
building.

Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down
the questioning?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes.

Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have.
I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after
that?

Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt,
come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which
was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might
be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the
sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to
witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see
you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did
Rowland say, according to your notes?

Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with
his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were
standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes
before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the
background of an open window two floors from the top.

Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top?

Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with
scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about
this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he
made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white
man, and that he heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you
remember?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court
reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the
time.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window
in any other windows there?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert
Edwards?

Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them?

Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing
on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an
open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair
was longer than a crewcut.

Mr. BELIN. What else did they say?

Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an
affidavit taken from them at the time, too.

Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under
Fischer or under Edwards, or both?

Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man?

Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Which one?

Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.

Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer?

Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures?

Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't
remember positive.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man?

Mr. TURNER. None other than that.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the
taking of various affidavits there?

Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the
affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and
affidavits was taken from them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie
Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?

Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan
[spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.

Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one.

Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was
thinking of when you said Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an
officer had been shot?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking
to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book
Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.

Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him.
There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the
building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in
there?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat
being found on Industrial Street?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in
the case, but it was placed in the property room.

Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere?

Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me
a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had
turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it
had any bearing on the case or not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated?

Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the
case.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and
I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that
Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I
might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could
do down there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants
was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search
warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one
of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he
said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this
address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here
a minute; 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car
and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we
got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys,
Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because
someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.

Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge
Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this
Lee Oswald had a room in it.

Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant,
it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether
the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the
warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I
don't remember the date on the warrant.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it
that didn't belong with the house, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel?

Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three
were there when we got there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the
homicide and robbery office of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition
Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of
an inventory that you made?

Mr. TURNER. I think all of this----

Mr. BELIN. Just a second----

Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is
the typed-up list of the copies that I made.

Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at
1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up?

Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there.

Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other
things?

Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It
is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. This is your original?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon.

Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon?

Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made
by one of the secretaries in the--our office.

Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this
notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote
part.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as
"Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in
evidence.

Do you need this back?

Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had
in my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made
a more detailed description of it down at the property room.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley
residence?

Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a
Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or
three people there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were
waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them
before we did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were
going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe
I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with
Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to
work with that morning.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How
do you go about doing it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write
it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them
sign it in front of a notary.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from
this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work,
or not?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up?

Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the
secretary, she might have filed it somewhere.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you did that day?

Mr. TURNER. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this
thing.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you
think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned?

Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes
here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about
it.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at
1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell
with you?

Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of
vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination
cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there
was any of those there or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or was not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23?

Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know
of, except I came to work, like I said.

They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots
of us busy answering the phone.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation
sessions with Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end
of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in
just as they were winding up on him one night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to
identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't
know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a
picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he
had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he
stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact
replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to
Captain Fritz, and he already had the information.

Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any
importance?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning,
November 24?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station?

Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and
my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen,
or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I
called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to
work about 1 o'clock or so.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with
regard to the assassination?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to
the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man
at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald
had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111
or 212 Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found
there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man,
Dial Ryder, that worked for him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I
have talked with both of them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I
sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener?

Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder.

Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald
in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work
for the man in the shop.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names,
and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason
there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't
worked on it.

Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you?

Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the
clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of
the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a
gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top.

Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

Mr. TURNER. About November 28.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of
the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could
figure out, his--this work probably came in around November the 4th or
November the 8th of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would
call attention to it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on
it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about
this, about the man they did the work for?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say?

Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself?

Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these
men?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket?

Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket
on--or try to pick up the work ticket?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said
that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and
not let it get away from him.

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this?

Mr. TURNER. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you
remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did
you discuss this with Mr. Greener?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith
means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach
a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes.
Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three
screws in it.

Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he
said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it
that was found in the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it.

Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top?

Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole.

Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a
screw?

Mr. TURNER. A hole.

Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean?

Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a
spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool,
they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that
is to sight a rifle in.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any
particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for
scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the
Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three
screws in their mount.

Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not
you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the
School Book Depository Building had?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition
for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber
rifles, 6.5.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further
checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see
if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it
might have been picked up.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether
or not he did this?

Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't
able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount
or nature or something.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now?

Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to
him?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the
name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated
that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not
the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification
one way or the other, if you remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't
identify him.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written
up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could
recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or
something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure
out what day the rifle might have been left there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking
to him, do you?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of
the rifle?

Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the
paper.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to
determine that he had or had not worked on it?

Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not
think that he was working on it.

Mr. BELIN. Why not?

Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only
two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this
ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap
scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the
man another one, and would remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of
Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said
about this?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked
like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this
man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say
definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of
that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the
investigation you made that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to
Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three
holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your
curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from
Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this
particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank
you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here.

One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this
and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive
the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any
preference or not?

Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing?

Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as
soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way.

Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it?

Mr. TURNER. Well.



TESTIMONY OF GUY F. ROSE

The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROSE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, now, please?

Mr. ROSE. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. ROSE. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide
and robbery bureau.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ROSE. Ten years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. ROSE. I was born in Grannis, Ark.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?

Mr. ROSE. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and
attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District
between Irving and Grand Prairie.

Mr. BALL. And what have you done since then?

Mr. ROSE. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a
construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I
went on the police department.

Mr. BALL. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21
years old?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was what year?

Mr. ROSE. It was in 1954.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. ROSE. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time
of the assassination I was not on duty.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty?

Mr. ROSE. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting--I came
on to work.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. ROSE. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city
hall.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository
and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they
brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you?

Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and
he told me it was Hidell.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald?

Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I
found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found
another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of
the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just
said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came
in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house.

Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his
name was "Hidell"?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw the cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name?

Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last
name of "Hidell".

Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. Did you search him?

Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I
don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it
or not.

Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you sitting down?

Mr. ROSE. No; I was standing in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Where was he--was he standing too?

Mr. ROSE. No; he was sitting in the chair.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him?

Mr. ROSE. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure.

Mr. BALL. Who else was present at that time?

Mr. ROSE. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both
uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present.

Mr. BALL. The ones who brought him in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him,
but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right
there at the time or not.

Mr. BALL. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true
name?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. ROSE. He said, "You find out."

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You
just find out."

Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026
North Beckley?

Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you go out to Irving--to the Irving
Street address?

Mr. ROSE. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed
me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went
immediately.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to
go to a certain address in Irving?

Mr. ROSE. I believe he gave me the address.

Mr. BALL. What was the address?

Mr. ROSE. 2515 West Fifth in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How many men went out there?

Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall,
and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and
we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L.
Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and
they came and met us.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't.

Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house?

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the
county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could
see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see
two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as
soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She
apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and
we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you
to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting
happened, I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I
was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went
into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't
remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few
minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee
Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called
Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and
asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well,
ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle."

I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said
she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth
Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she
said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does
have."

So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone
and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth
Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to
the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying
on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says
that that's where his rifle is."

Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or
not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out
from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and
so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't
have the rifle in it.

Mr. BALL. You brought that in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that
time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and
talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements
to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and
Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did
assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too
much.

Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please?

Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it
was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote
it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken.

Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael
Paine come in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in
plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't
appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just
walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the
corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he
didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time,
and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I
heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help."

Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us.

Mr. BALL. Did Marina Oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say
something?

Mr. ROSE. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and
Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for
me--she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is."

Mr. BALL. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie
Randle come over to you?

Mr. ROSE. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with
her--I saw her out in the yard--I didn't talk to her.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to her at all?

Mr. ROSE. At that time I didn't--I did later.

Mr. BALL. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police
department, did you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children
in our car and also the blanket--I carried it.

Mr. BALL. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and
looking around for Wesley Frazier?

Mr. ROSE. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine
and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was
so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next
door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective
Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying
to locate Wesley Frazier.

We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked
through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check
of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located
through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone
there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic,
so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to
talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one
that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning.

Mr. BALL. You took a statement from Frazier that day?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written
affidavit off of him.

Mr. BALL. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I brought her in, too.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except
the time you mentioned?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him?

Mr. ROSE. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday--I was present
when Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day?

Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since
quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage.

Mr. BALL. What did you find there?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two
cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of
Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald
holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right
with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you
call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative
of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and
he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle.

Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags?

Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call
them--more of a greyish-white.

Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of
them was real worn.

Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later
that day?

Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9
or 10 o'clock, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't
remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but
I don't remember their names.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. ROSE. Do I remember what was said?

Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got
back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the
rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to
the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they
made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it
back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed
him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw
the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because
somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain
said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?"

And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I
remember that part of it distinctly.

I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in
Russia.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. ROSE. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored
people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember--he
just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk
about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the
President?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit?

Mr. ROSE. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of
the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him.
That was the only interrogation I sat in on.

Mr. BALL. That was the only one you sat in on?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said in that
interrogation?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more
said, but I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises?

Mr. ROSE. Let's, let's see--that was Saturday, and then Sunday,
immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was
supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and
Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's
apartment and search it and I did.

Mr. BALL. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you,
Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your
signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you
can waive your signature--just as you wish. What do you prefer?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I don't know--will it be later?

Mr. BALL. A couple of weeks.

Mr. ROSE. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime.

Mr. BALL. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much.

Mr. ROSE. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you
now, I wanted to mention--we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph,
did you know that?

Mr. BALL. I know you did--we know about that.

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks.



TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY

The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. PERRY. W. E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address?

Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. PERRY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born
and where you were raised?

Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went
in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on
to the police department. Been there about 11 years.

Mr. BALL. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in
November of 1963?

Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau----

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Squadroom?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----

Mr. BALL. First one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. 6:30.

Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking
part in showups before in your department?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?

Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?

Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I
don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the
vice squad?

Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done.

Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part
in the first showup?

Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?

Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third
floor of the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there?

Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide
detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't
know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the
office was----

Mr. BALL. Anything said there?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?

Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my
shirt and put another sports coat on.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To whom?

Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?

Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.

Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup?

Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.

Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4?

Mr. PERRY. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before?

Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any
questions?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?

Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not
mistaken.

Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?

Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they
were, but they weren't----

Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or true address?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave some----

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that?

Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and
said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we
went back up there and----

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time?

Mr. PERRY. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Same coat?

Mr. PERRY. Same coat.

Mr. BALL. No tie?

Mr. PERRY. No tie.

Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?

Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the
audience?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?

Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?

Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?

Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?

Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. PERRY. About 150.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. PERRY. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. PERRY. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all.



TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK

The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address?

Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CLARK. Eleven years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go through school here?

Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. CLARK. After I went to school?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. I went to work.

Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't
going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about
you and where you were born and your early education, what you have
done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the
testimony.

Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the
police department.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department?

Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of
the police department, did you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CLARK. Two.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?

Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the
exact time.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part.
That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?

Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple
of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. CLARK. My partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?

Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?

Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?

Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.

Mr. BALL. What was said at that time?

Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us
to make a showup with them.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long?

Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less.

Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it
was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?

Mr. CLARK. At homicide.

Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.

Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?

Mr. CLARK. Brown.

Mr. BALL. With belt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do?

Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a
sports coat hanging there that he put on.

Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you?

Mr. CLARK. Total?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man
out of the jail office.

Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand.

Mr. BALL. Your right----

Mr. CLARK. To his left.

Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right
hand.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the
showup as such? Have a number above each man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do.

Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were
you numbered from left to right?

Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right.

Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the
audience?

Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite.

Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who
was the first one to the left?

Mr. CLARK. First one to my left?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. Be Ables.

Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3?

Mr. CLARK. Myself.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. CLARK. Ables.

Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience.
The audience was looking at him, it would be----

Mr. BALL. He stood on your left?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any
questions?

Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?

Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.

Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any
questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?

Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup.

Mr. BALL. In the showup.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said.

Mr. BALL. Lights were on you?

Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and
tell me what time that first showup was?

Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m.

Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you?

Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in
that?

Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from
homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after
the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they
wanted us again.

Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around?

Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office.

Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there.

Mr. BALL. Who called you?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call?

Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there.

Mr. BALL. Fritz' office?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in
the first showup?

Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the
homicide, and I took it off and left it there.

Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress?

Mr. CLARK. The same red vest.

Mr. BALL. What about your tie?

Mr. CLARK. No tie.

Mr. BALL. What about the coat?

Mr. CLARK. No coat.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing?

Mr. CLARK. Same position.

Mr. BALL. Same position?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1?

Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald----

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. CLARK. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4.

Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers.

Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. CLARK. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. CLARK. About 177.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. CLARK. Blond.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. CLARK. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair?

Mr. CLARK. Fair.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in
the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in
the police department showup?

Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual.

Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his
deposition.



TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES

The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ABLES. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables?

Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police
Department?

Mr. ABLES. About 7 months.

Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department?

Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee.

Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not----

Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the----

Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't.

Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police
department.

Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who
asked you to, or ordered you to?

Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out
there.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined
in with them.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Showup room?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room?

Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here
[indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And dark trousers?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a tie on?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is
that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup
room?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police
Department being used in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the
police department.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly
what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using
jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not
holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned
about it?

Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a
police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard
of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need
somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a
showup or something.

Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked
certain questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in
the line?

Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4.

Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the
audience?

Mr. ABLES. Be on the left.

Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your left?

Mr. ABLES. My left.

Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he
ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my
occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. And where what?

Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't
recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did
you tell him?

Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the
questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything?

Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him
questions.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't
you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. ABLES. About 6:30.

Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup?

Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same
members back in there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup?

Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself.

Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did
on the first showup.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup.

Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they
were?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr BALL. When was that?

Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time.

Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock?

Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you?

Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners.

Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there?

Mr. ABLES. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know
whether he was there?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup?

Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said
that he wanted me back in there.

Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail
during the time?

Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office.

Mr. BALL. In between the showups?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again?

Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite
sure there was no questions asked.

Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2.

Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height?

Mr. ABLES. About 5'9".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. ABLES. Dark.

Mr. BALL. Eyes?

Mr. ABLES. Brown.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. ABLES. Ruddy.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too.

Mr. ABLES. All right.



TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN

The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on
April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in
this matter? You were asked to come here?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you not?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the
facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain
information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to
their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify.

Are you willing to testify to whatever you know?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff
officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear.

Mr. BALL. Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help.

Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born?

Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray.

Mr. BALL. Red?

Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Direct to where?

Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Delivery Service?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that.

Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there?

Mr. LUJAN. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale
Groceries.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps?

Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. Of narcotics?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested?

Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that.

Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination.

Mr. BALL. Before the assassination?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday.

Mr. BALL. Then did they release you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything?

Mr. LUJAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take
part in a showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day was it?

Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the
afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Or what?

Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday----

Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that?

Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand
up and he looked at me and said, "Come out."

So, I came out, and he went and got three more.

Mr. BALL. Got three more?

Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows.

Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know them?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did they look like?

Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker.

Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight?

Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8".

Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark?

Mr. LUJAN. Black.

Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes?

Mr. LUJAN. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion?

Mr. LUJAN. Olive.

Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you?

Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about----

Mr. BALL. Same coloring?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup?

Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Right next to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were
standing in the lineup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were what would be----

Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right?

Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed----

Mr. BALL. To the right?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he?

Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed?

Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt.

Mr. BALL. What color shirt?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket.

Mr. BALL. Brown jacket?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Any tie on?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number.

Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address?

Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all.

Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud?

Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a
shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left
about a minute.

Mr. BALL. Then you left?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you
in there and he did ask you questions?

Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and
that's all.

Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they?

Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions.

Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others
their name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave.

Mr. LUJAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me.

Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working?

Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay.



TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN

The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise
your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROWN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please.

Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BROWN. Police officer.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?

Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. BROWN. Through high school.

Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. BROWN. No; divorced.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the
Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty
officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy.

Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my
discharge in 1944.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war?

Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mr. BROWN. As an installer.

Mr. BELIN. Of telephones?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went
to work for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go
to work for the city of Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since.

Mr. BELIN. How long now?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. What is your position now?

Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so?

Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective
J. R. Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the
office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that
was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now."

So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there
and help them."

So we immediately put this subject in jail.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the
back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth
floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth
floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me
to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there
was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take
them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they
were at the time of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they
were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city
hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley,
and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey
Oswald.

And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of
them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley
looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is
one of my boys."

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?

Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald
in there in the room we were using.

We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in
there.

Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered
the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth
floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers
had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and
told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified
was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.

He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?

Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas
School Book Depository. He called from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was
responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?

Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal
opinion at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr.
Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at
this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did,
saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the
time you talked to him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there,
that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from
him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring
Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his
own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in
conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and
what he was doing, and what type work he did there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the
shooting?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the
shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent
to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do.

Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he
said he was.

Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me.

Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the
deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then.

Mr. BROWN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an
affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time?

Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit?

Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from
every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they
were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that
you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form?

I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard
to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that
you participated in?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner,
C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with
a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a
busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in
the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from
your left to right.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right.

Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the
lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROWN. No; it does not.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available?

Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were
taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee
Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the
bus transfer.

Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup
were for other witnesses to observe.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his
identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the
bus. I gave him a transfer."

Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found
in Oswald's possession?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office.

Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that?

Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark."

Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that?

Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He
did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk,
and he held it up for comparison there in our presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you
remember?

Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the
identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup.

Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups.

Mr. BELIN. Who else?

Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N.
Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder
from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took
affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home.

After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room
where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other
witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively
identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs.
Barbara Jeannette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Was----

Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and
Mrs. Barbara Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick?

Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a
four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man?

Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got
them under the numbers, too.

Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly.

Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?

Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the
showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses
on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the
murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the
assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date,
November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a
Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law
of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an
additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard.

Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the
Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent
hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the
homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the
two women?

Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office
for affidavits and identification.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?

Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?

Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?

Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara
Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime
lab himself, which was initialled by both of us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?

Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any
further witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or
the Tippit murder?

Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition
when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have
our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your
choice.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?

Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right
out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and
the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.



TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES

Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GRAVES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter?

Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves?

Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8,
1918.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and
Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp.

Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then
I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized
and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was
discharged after the war.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and
I cooked principally all the time I was in.

Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food
wasn't good?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints.

Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to
work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express
Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to
work for Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H.
Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they
went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where
I was working when I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say
Paramount, was that----

Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section
of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount
Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business,
which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the
movie industry or picture industry, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business?

Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where?

Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning
operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the
equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration.

Mr. BELIN. Of theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever
since?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all?

Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That
is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you
got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from,
I believe her name was, Helen Markham.

Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham.

Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass
confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she
was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across
the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her
over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady
and take an affidavit from her, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions.

Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally.

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most
hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and
Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many
people were in this showup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people.

Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was
identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in
a four-man lineup, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular
lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that
lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any
way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this
lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs.
Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men
that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the
names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself.
I don't remember this physical description.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or
was one or more a Negro?

Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual
if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear
in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their
approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I
might add, because we just don't operate that way.

Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to
showups? Perhaps you could tell us this.

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call
the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the
showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the
approximate age, size, and so forth.

And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we
have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify
what age or size you want?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the
man that you are bringing down.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out.

Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the
particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another
particular age and size?

Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to
pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size.
That is what it boils down to.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said
when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to
her?

Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately
4 or 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time?

Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately
in the first row of seats near the front.

Mr. BELIN. She was seated?

Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing.

Mr. BELIN. She was standing?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall?

Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am
sure you have seen them?

Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the
showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is
that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the
men in the showup came in?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the
last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that
came in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and
then No. 1?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying?

Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as
far as from here to that stand, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw,
Oswald. I mean at this particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their
profiles?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is
the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left,
and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time
that she made the identification?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that
would--did they speak any words or say anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am
reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure.
If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not.

Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an
actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or
pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing
or what they looked like?

Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has
been done, however, in the past.

But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing,
because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a
time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the
picture, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in
connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's
identification?

Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual
showup?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee
Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at
4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on
the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man
lineup.

Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your
actions on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit
of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. November 23.

Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22.

Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down
for the record.

Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me
if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the
written record that you submitted to your department.

I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you
can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in
your written report.

Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you
remember something that you might not have put down at the time.

Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen
Markham back to her address, to let her out?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said
as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to
see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either
going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her
being at that location.

Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other
people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not?

Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo
Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do
with the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a
lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not
seen anything authentic about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the
city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup.

Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway
and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is
there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come
down to give an affidavit or view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw
them or had any occasion to talk to them any further.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo
Benavides?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see
if I can help you a little bit.

I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the
Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over
Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in
your memory?

Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him
to one side.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that.

Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so
many phone calls.

Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at
all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take
her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was.

Mr. GRAVES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down
to view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus
shortly after the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to
a lineup and she refused to come down?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I
asked her to come down and give an affidavit.

Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose
responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people?
Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of
the investigation, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in
charge of the entire investigation.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe?

Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been
Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I
don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding.

Mr. BELIN. Now on November 24--first, I want to take that part of
November 24 up to the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by
Jack Ruby. First, did you have any contact or anything to do with the
investigation of the case on November 24, on Sunday?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not before he was transferred.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee
Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing except that I was present during the latter part of
the interrogation; part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state the circumstances under which you were
present? How you happened to be present?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I had been told that we were going to transfer Lee
Harvey Oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so
that would necessitate going into the office where he was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find when you went in the office?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I found, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald, Captain
Fritz, and the people that I have named here. The others present were
Mr. Holmes from the U.S. Post Office Department, Mr. Kelley from
the Secret Service, Agent Sorrels from the Secret Service, L. D.
Montgomery, detective; C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle; and Chief Curry
came in just a few minutes before we started to move.

Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in the bringing of Oswald down to be
interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time in the morning, was this?

Mr. GRAVES. I think that was around 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did
you leave?

Mr. GRAVES. I stayed in the same room near. In the bureau, actually.

Mr. BELIN. This was done in Captain Fritz' office, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you brought Lee Harvey Oswald into Captain Fritz'
office at 9:30 a.m., what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I went back out and answered telephones and talked to
people coming in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you witness any part of the early interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go back into Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. GRAVES. Roughly, about 11:10 or 11:15 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the original time set for transfer was around 10 a.m.?

Mr. GRAVES. That was my understanding.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your
deposition here?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you have already been questioned as to the transfer of
Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the
interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time,
but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and
in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was
in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he
said. I don't remember exactly, so I would rather not say anything. I
know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure
didn't amount to a great deal. Very evasive, as every other answer was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific, any questions or any
statements that Oswald made about any other subject that was discussed?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he said that he had been a student of Marxism since
he was 14, I believe, and Communist line, and that he, well, one of
his last statements was that the American people would soon forget the
President was shot. Of course he never admitted that he did it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; he was asked, but of course----

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. GRAVES. He said no, he didn't shoot him.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot Officer
Tippit?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a
rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his answer was?

Mr. GRAVES. He said that he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of
him with a rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his statement was with regard to the
picture?

Mr. GRAVES. He said, "You could superimpose anything you want to with
cameras. It wasn't him."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else, that you remember, about the
picture?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about the use of an alias?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; he was, but he denied that, of course.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his
possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my
presence.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he
was in your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. Having a lawyer?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which
was around 9:30, how long did you stay there? Through about how many
minutes of interrogation before you left?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, from 9:30 until approximately 11:15, somewhere
along there.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred
throughout this period?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, how long were you in the room where he was being
interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. About 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You were there the first 10 minutes?

Mr. GRAVES. No; last 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any of the initial questions of the
interrogation at all?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you accompanied Oswald down from his fifth floor jail
cell to Captain Fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with him when you picked him
up at his jail cell?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down
for interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. I told him they were going to transfer him.

Mr. BELIN. That is what you told him?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say as to that?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know what
transfer meant, I don't think. I think he meant from one jail cell to
another. He didn't know that meant going to the county.

Mr. BELIN. When you brought him down to Captain Fritz' office, he of
course had been there before, hadn't he?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any comments as he walked in the office about
being interrogated or anything of that nature?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. He might have said something to the news
media, I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald ever
requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal
knowledge is concerned? Did he ever make any such request to you or in
your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. No, no; sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he
was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer?

Mr. GRAVES. Not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. This is what I am asking, then, just of your own knowledge?

Mr. GRAVES. No; he wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. He might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done
before you?

Mr. GRAVES. Might have been by someone else, but not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Was this as much contact as you had with Oswald? You
indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell
and you brought him down to be interrogated on November 24, when
you were present during about 10 minutes, the latter part of this
interrogation. Any other contacts with Oswald apart from these?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not that I had direct contact with him.

Mr. BELIN. What was your impression of him, as far as a person is
concerned? His demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist,
but I would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular.

Mr. BELIN. An eight ball in Army vernacular?

Mr. GRAVES. In any vernacular. We deal with a lot of people in our
business, as well as we run into all types of people. I would say that
he was egotistical.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop right there. What gave you the impression he was
egotistical?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't know. A person of his nature and cocky
attitude, I don't know exactly how to explain it.

Mr. BELIN. Any specific thing that he did that gave you that
impression, that you can remember at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not anything in particular. Again, you just have to be
around people. I don't know how to explain how people act to where it
means anything, but I know what it means to me. I have been wrong a few
times, but I have been right most of the time in summing up how people
are, their actions, and so forth, and I would say this boy was a little
far out in his belief about things in general.

And the way he conducted hisself. He is just plain egotistical, that is
all. He don't care about you, me, or anybody else. He is caring about
Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Can you think of any specific action or remark of his that
might be an illustration of this?

Mr. GRAVES. I can't offhand, no.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball."
You used "egotistical." Can you use any other adjective that you think
would apply to him as you saw him?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I think that pretty well covers it, myself.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he
quick to make remarks?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark
when he was spoken to or asked a question.

Mr. BELIN. Is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or
not?

Mr. GRAVES. Not always polite. He was straightforward and to the point,
and not necessarily polite.

Don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because I am just telling
you my own personal feeling about the man, and I could be wrong, as I
said. So I am not an expert in that field. I am just telling you what I
think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. As I said, I
could be wrong. I have been wrong before.

Mr. BELIN. Was he attentive as you saw him. I mean, did he----

Mr. GRAVES. If you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the
men. He listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer
by the time you got through asking him. That would make him attentive.

Mr. BELIN. This could be helpful. In other words, if he were asked a
question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just
shoot an answer straight back?

Mr. GRAVES. Just answered right back.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember,
or was this almost invariably the case?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, that was the case in everything that I heard him say.
He didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Graves, is there anything else you can think of
that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything
to do with Lee Harvey Oswald or the investigation of the assassination,
or the shooting of Officer Tippit, that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. GRAVES. At this point, I don't recall anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so,
because we know you have been down here once before, and I want to tell
you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of
this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or
you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in Washington,
and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? Do you have any
preference at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I don't sign it, it won't make any difference
anyway.

Mr. BELIN. You can waive it if you would like to.

Mr. GRAVES. I will waive it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. GRAVES. In the interest of time and everything.

Mr. BELIN. Thanks a lot.



TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. LEAVELLE

The testimony of James R. Leavelle was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and
Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general, was present.


Mr. BALL. Mr. Leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand?

[Witness complying.]

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. LEAVELLE. James R. Leavelle.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. LEAVELLE. 7703 R-i-l-l-a [spelling], Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And, what is your occupation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Fourteen years.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the homicide squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A little over 5 years.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about where you were born and your education; what
you have done most of your life.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was born and raised mostly in Red River County in
east Texas and went into service. After leaving the service, coming out
of the service I worked for different companies here in Dallas until I
joined the department in 1950.

Mr. BALL. The purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts
concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. That's the general
purpose of it.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member
of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with
Oswald, myself.

Mr. BALL. Well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I was working 8 to 4 I believe, that month and I
had--when I heard of the assassination. I had just come into the
homicide office with a Negro boy I had arrested for robbery.

Mr. BALL. Whereabouts did you go then after that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We, along with Charlie Brown, went to the building, the
Texas Book Depository, and talked with the inspector there. I asked him
if the building had been secured and he said it was and Captain Fritz
was in the building.

Mr. BALL. Was that Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the
sheriff's office and I might go over and check and see what was needed,
so I went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar
more or less. They had several witnesses around and they wanted to
take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. So, when
I walked in, they knew I was a homicide man and would be indirectly
responsible for some of the investigation, so I talked with Allen
Sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the
taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four,
five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me
that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and
asked me what was needed, so I told them to work with Mr. Sweatt and
take those affidavits and they could do that as well as I and I would
go back to the Depository and see what might further be needed over
there. I went to the Depository and had been there just a short time
talking to some of the officers on duty there. I don't remember who
they were at this time and at that time I heard a radio broadcast of
the shooting in Oak Cliff which involved Officer Tippit and I called my
office and found that there was no one to answer the call in Oak Cliff
and since everything was under control there, I felt like some of us
should be in Oak Cliff, so I borrowed a car from Detective Red Edwards
of burglary----

(At this point, Mr. Robert T. Davis enters.)

Mr. BALL. Go ahead, Mr. Leavelle.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I borrowed an automobile from Detective Red Edwards, A.
L. Edwards, and proceeded to the Oak Cliff area. I went to the scene of
the shooting. They had removed Tippit's body at that time and I talked
with the sergeant and the officer.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe Sergeant Bud Owens was the sergeant there and
one of the uniformed officers was--I may be in error on this, but I
believe it was Poe.

Mr. BALL. J. M. Poe?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; P-o-e [spelling].

Mr. BALL. At that time someone told you some empty .38 caliber hulls
had been picked up. Did Poe tell you that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you the hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; he did not give them to me. I think my instructions
to him were to turn them over to the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Did he show them to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I don't think so; he may have but I do not recall. He
may have. He did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't
know her name at the time. So, while I was talking to him was when
the call came out they seen the suspect go into the Texas Theatre,
so I proceeded to the Texas Theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, I
didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so
I returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and I
believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen
Oswald running from the scene.

Mr. BALL. Who told you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Poe, I believe. Now, I could be in error on that but
someone told me anyway, so----

Mr. BALL. You went back to the police station and took some affidavits
from witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That's right, I went on to the station at that time and
took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they
had brought in there because at the time I didn't realize there was
any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit or the one
that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit
and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different
things altogether. So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that
end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the
Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize
some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the
Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the
same one who assassinated the President.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Captain Fritz instruct you to go out and pick up
the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; this Helen Markham, the witness, was in such a state
of shock she had been unable to view the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see her the first time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency
room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city
hall, and I went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed
down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she
told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, I called the
captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time
some of the other officers brought Oswald down. I took here into the
showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Were you and Helen Markham the only two in what you call the
showup room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, Captain Fritz and Chief Curry was in there also and
possibly one or two others; I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. How about your partner, C. W. Brown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know whether he was there or not.

Mr. BALL. Any other witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Now Mr. Graves may have been in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other witnesses in there?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Who picked the men for the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had nothing to do with that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the men were in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That particular showup they had gotten two of the
officers, I believe, that work in the vice squad.

Mr. BALL. I have the names of the people in the showup; No. 1 was Bill
Perry; is he a Dallas Police Department officer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. No. 3 R. L. Clark----

Mr. LEAVELLE. He is an officer also.

Mr. BALL. Vice squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Don Ables is a jail clerk?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked these men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I do not know who decided that they be in the
showup. Of course, I am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of
the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting
prisoners down there.

Mr. BALL. Is it unusual to use officers in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we don't normally do it.

Mr. BALL. You usually have other prisoners in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, trustees serving time, or----

Mr. BALL. What is your memory as to how these men were dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, I
believe. I don't think there was any coats involved in any of them.

Mr. BALL. Did any have ties?

Mr. LEAVELLE. None had ties or hats on.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes.

Mr. BALL. What questions?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case
because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard
the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation,
anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did Helen Markham say while she was in the showup
room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, she was very nervous and I do not recall what all
she did say, but she was able to identify Oswald as the one.

Mr. BALL. What did she tell you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do
the shooting over there in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a statement from her then?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I took one from her but I do not remember whether--just
when I took it.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after
we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and
talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the
one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the
man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter
there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said,
each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the
man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside
and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot
with the gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. You also talked to Domingo Benavides?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. D-o-m-i-n-g-o B-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. I would think it
would be spelled differently.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to be Mexican descent but that Benavides
is actually an Italian name, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you talk to him also?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I talked with him but I do not believe we ever took an
affidavit off him that I recall--may have.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the
officer. I remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from
someone who gave them to him, and when I talked to Domingo, he said he
was the one picked them up and give them to the officer.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring any of these men downtown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask them----

Mr. LEAVELLE. I called later--Ted Callaway--bring the others down;
however, I think the Negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the
only one he brought.

Mr. BALL. You say you told him to bring the others down? Who did you
tell to bring down?

Mr. LEAVELLE. The porter and this Domingo.

Mr. BALL. But he only brought----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Sam Guinyard.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why Domingo Benavides was never brought down for
the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think he said he never saw the man actually. I believe
he said later on he did not see the man.

Mr. BALL. He testified here he saw the man running.

Mr. LEAVELLE. But he--either that or he told me he could not recognize
him, one or the other.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a showup with Callaway and Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I do not recall the time but we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your
memory? Here is a report that you made, also. [Papers to witness.]

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, at 6:30 p.m. would be right.

Mr. BALL. 6:30 p.m.?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the audience side of the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. As far as I know there wasn't anyone other than Mr.
Graves and myself, and I am not too sure he was there. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Your notes say that Brown and Dhority were with you. Is that
right?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I do not remember; it could have been.

Mr. BALL. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. BALL. What officer was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, we were with them.

Mr. BALL. Who talked to them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the
lineup?

Mr. BALL. No; I am talking about the witnesses.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Only two witnesses is Callaway and Guinyard and I talked
with them.

Mr. BALL. You talked with them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who were the men in the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. These notes show that Billy Perry was No. 1; R. L. Clark, No.
2; and 4, Don Ables; and No. 2, Oswald.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know they were on two different showups, so it is quite
possible.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would think I would have been--the same line.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Ted Callaway said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not per se; I know they were able to identify Oswald.

Mr. BALL. What was the substance of what he said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. You say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because I
don't know what he identified him as.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said he was the man; he identified him as the man he
saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the
Oak Cliff area near his carlot.

Mr. BALL. What about Sam Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Same thing, practically.

Mr. BALL. Did you take statements from them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe I took affidavits from them, according to my
notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down.

Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to
look at a jacket which----

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything
like the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly
like it.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket.

Mr. BALL. Now then, did you do anything else that day on this
investigation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone
in the office.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at what time Saturday morning, November 23,
1963?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It would be around 8 o'clock, I imagine.

Mr. BALL. And did you take some statements that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Chances are I may have, I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Here is----

Mr. LEAVELLE. It says took one affidavit from R. S. Truly, supervisor
of Texas School Book and the other of employee, Mrs. R. A. Reid.

Mr. BALL. You are refreshing your memory from a report that you made,
is that correct?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend another showup that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we held another showup that day which involved a
cabdriver----

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We later found out he was near the scene of the shooting
and saw the shooting, also, W. W. Scoggins. We held a showup for him at
2:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone else with him at that time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver,
name of William Wayne Whaley [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Had you talked to him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had not talked to Whaley; no.

Mr. BALL. What officer talked to Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Whaley in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Scoggins in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first see Whaley and Scoggins?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They came to the office, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down with them to the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure that I did. I do not recall but I am sure I
must have.

Mr. BALL. Here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh
your memory [notes to witness].

Mr. LEAVELLE. From these notes here it indicates I was there along with
them at that time.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory? Is your memory different from the notes?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember who else was there, if anyone was.

Mr. BALL. You know that you were there with Scoggins and Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall who was in there. I know it says who was
here but I could not tell you.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick those men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; not at anytime did I have anything to do with picking
the men in any of them.

Mr. BALL. This was your third showup in the course of your
investigation of the murder of Tippit and the assassination of
President Kennedy?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; the third and the only three I had anything to do
with.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would have handled the speech of that also; asking them
to say a few words.

Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That I do not recall either.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether they had coats on?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed
as alike as possible, the same as each other.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory of this incident? Were they dressed
anywhere near similar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was,
Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where
they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the
rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had
on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last
one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and
wouldn't be quiet.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt
and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that. I don't know what he
didn't say; he went on all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course. I asked him if he--if the man that he
remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was
up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was
doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still
knew him.

Mr. BALL. What did Scoggins say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said practically the same thing--the man in the
T-shirt was the--or the No. 3 man was the man he had saw do the
shooting.

Mr. BALL. Who said that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That would have been Scoggins.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this
man before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to have seen him I believe, but I do not
recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand.

Mr. BALL. Where Scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was
sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the
shooting occurred.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 24, on Sunday morning, did you return to
work about the same time, 8 o'clock, or so?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Little before 10, I believe, or something.

Mr. BALL. And, were you ordered by Captain Fritz to get Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I don't--I see here it says 9:30--whatever the
official time was, I think it probably was maybe about that time.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to get Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had to go to the fourth floor jail.

Mr. BALL. Did you handcuff him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In front.

Mr. BALL. Where were you taking him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into
Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that meeting in Captain Fritz's office?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I can recall, I believe during that time I was
there there were several people in and out. I believe primarily myself
and Mr. Graves and Dhority and Montgomery were in there most of the
time, I don't know. We were in, probably might have stepped outside the
door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also Mr.
Kelley, Secret Service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. I
cannot recall his name at this time. He should be on here--oh, yes, Mr.
Sorrels, also, and Holmes of the postal department. Now, those people
and Chief Curry came in once or twice. All those people may not have
stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at
some time or other.

Mr. BALL. Did these various people ask questions of Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know Mr. Sorrels did and I know Mr. Kelley did. I do
not recall whether Mr. Holmes asked any questions or not and Captain
Fritz asked him some.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Mr. Sorrels asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Remember what Mr. Kelley asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I can only remember one question Mr. Kelley asked him
and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the U.S.
Government toward Cuba would be changed since the President has been
assassinated. To my knowledge, that is the only one I can recall.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said "I am filed
on for the President's murder, is that right?" And, Captain Fritz told
him yes, and he told Mr. Kelley, he said "Under the circumstances, I
don't believe that it would be proper." That might not be the words he
used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question
because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than
what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like
when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there
was always a second in command who would take over and he said in
this particular instance it would he Johnson. He said "So far as I
know, Johnson's views and President Kennedy's views are the same",
so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the
U.S. Government toward Cuba. That's about the main--the only one,
because he went into such detail on it, the only one I thought was a
little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason I
remembered it.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any question Captain Fritz asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I remember that the captain asked him about the shooting
of the President and the shooting of the officer; I know he did ask him
that and I know Oswald did deny it, both times.

Mr. BALL. That he had shot President Kennedy and Tippit?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he denied shooting either one. He did say this "If
you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a
cop in the mouth when I was arrested", he said "Yeah, I plead guilty
to that" but he--I do know that he denied the shooting of both the
President and Tippit.

Mr. BALL. In that meeting did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I know Captain Fritz asked him if at one time, if--he
handed him a telegram--in fact. I believe it was sent by some attorney,
if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want
him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would
contact him at a later time. I do not recall what lawyer it was. It
seems like some lawyer in the East sent the telegram volunteering his
services to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. That is there on Sunday morning, the 24th?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In the course of this meeting which you have been
describing----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch
with this lawyer in New York City that represented the American Civil
Liberties Union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he
didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with
this man about it.

Mr. BALL. Can you remember any other questions asked Oswald by Captain
Fritz?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, not offhand; I would probably remember them if I
heard the questions but I do not remember offhand.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody talk to him about the post office box?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; Mr. Kelley asked him several questions and probably
Mr. Sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in
Shreveport--wherever it was.

Mr. BALL. New Orleans?

Mr. LEAVELLE. New Orleans, yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Since you mentioned it, I do remember them talking to him
about the New Orleans box and asking him about this other name, this----

Mr. BALL. Alek Hidell?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; and he asked him if he knew Alek Hidell; said he
didn't know if he ever heard of the name. He never heard of that and
asked him several questions along that line and then after he had
denied all knowledge of Alek Hidell, Mr. Kelley asked him, said "Well,
isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card
with his name on it in your possession." He kind of grunted, said
"Yes, that's right" and he said "How do you explain that?" And, as best
my knowledge, he said "I don't explain it."

Mr. BALL. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about
the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in Dallas but I do
not recall. I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his
exact denial was.

Mr. BALL. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he
denied that he had bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I
would not swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said about a revolver?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they asked him something about the revolver,
too, but I do not recall what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession
at the time of his arrest?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall what the questions was along that line
or even what the answers was. Like I say, I am sure that they did. It
seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the
revolver but there, again. I would not want to say definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat
in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was
arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him
to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups,
what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on
Friday, the 22nd of November?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, no; not that I recall. He--I know he had a black
eye. I remember seeing that some time along the way but I do not recall
when I first noticed it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about his black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he
received the black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I remember at one time when they were moving him.
Of course, if you saw television that day, I am sure you saw what men
we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all
were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions
at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye.
He said "A cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some
unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him.

Mr. BALL. As you would move Oswald through the halls on the third floor
from one room to another----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would
be from our office to the elevator which is some 20 feet.

Mr. BALL. On those occasions would the hallway he crowded with
reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in
fact, I was plumb up to my chin with those people.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was disgusted with them.

Mr. STERN. Would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a
particular place?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of
slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like
up there--about the same situation.

Mr. BALL. I'm through. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. There was just no response. You asked them to cooperate with
you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back
but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had
to hold them off physically. Of course, I realize I am not running
the police department but if I had been running it wouldn't have been
nobody up there; like I say, I was fed up. Fact of the business, one
time when I was trying to escort some witness out of there--I don't
recall who it was at this time--but I was trying to get them through
that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and I stopped
and I looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my
legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted.

Mr. STERN. Was any consideration given to clearing the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of
course, I didn't have anything to do with it.

Mr. STERN. Was it discussed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I imagine just among the men up there. The officers
working in the bureau probably did. I don't know whether it was
discussed on a higher level or not. I have no knowledge of that.

Mr. STERN. There were actually television cameras in the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, yes.

Mr. STERN. Hand cameras or the large?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They had the big camera set on a tripod right at the
entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full
view of the entire hallway.

Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald and the way he handled
himself throughout this period?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Like I say, the only time that I had any connections with
Oswald was this Sunday morning. I never had occasion of hearing him
being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to
my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him
that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with
a lot better education than his formal education indicated. In other
words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the Cuba
deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school
education that he was reported to have had.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be in control of himself?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. In
fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was
enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way.

Mr. STERN. He engaged in banter with you and the police officials?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question
him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always
had an answer.

Mr. STERN. How about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from
the interrogations?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I did not indulge in any of that other than the one time
and, of course, if I made any comments to him at that time, I do not
remember what they were.

Mr. STERN. How about comments he made to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know--I think possibly at one time he--that morning
that I was bringing him down on Sunday morning that he may have asked
me where he was going or if he was going back to Captain Fritz' office
that morning, but aside from that, I do not recall anything else that
he may have said or anything that I may have said to him in the course
of the day.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall any complaints that he registered, any
statements he made about his treatment, or----

Mr. LEAVELLE. No. I don't think he made any to us that morning we were
moving him.

Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telegram that arrived Sunday morning or
that was there Sunday morning about the offer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had occasion to see it. I do not recall what it was. I
think it is a matter of record somewhere.

Mr. STERN. It was there at the Sunday morning interrogation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; it was there and, in fact, I know the captain and I
talked about it there a minute before I went up and got him, talked
about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. I said "Why
not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it
himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups
at which you were present said that they had seen Oswald on television
before they got to the police headquarters?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I think it would have been impossible for anybody,
any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers.
Now, the others may have, I don't recall, but the others all came down
on the day of the assassination so I don't believe that they would
have, but I know Helen Markham would not have because she was taken
directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she
would not, and I do not believe Mr. Callaway and the Negro porter, Sam
Guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either.

Mr. STERN. In any event, you do not recall it?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall, but I am not saying it would not have
happened.

Mr. STERN. That's all I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have Officer Leavelle's reports on the
officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. It is marked
"Pages 216, 217, 218, 219, 220." It is a part of the formal report of
the Dallas Police Department concerning the assassination of President
Kennedy and Officer Leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the
shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you
to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature
and it will be written up and forwarded to the Commission without your
signature. How will you prefer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out
like I put it down there.

Mr. BALL. If you have confidence in the reporter you can waive
signature and we will send it on.

Mr. LEAVELLE. All right.

Mr. BALL. It is pages 216 through 220 of the formal report which is
included in this Exhibit A. Thank you very much, Mr. Leavelle.



TESTIMONY OF W. E. BARNES

The testimony of W. E. Barnes was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 7, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to.

Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer.

Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David
Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about
a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been
with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the
past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here
in your city.

Would you please state your name for the record.

Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BARNES. It is.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular department?

Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the
identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Went to school here?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school?

Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high
school?

Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went
into the Merchant Marine Service.

Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine?

Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946?

Mr. BARNES. 1947.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since?

Mr. BARNES. I have been.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty?

Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to----

Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting
of the President, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental
appointment.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to
stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene?

Mr. BELIN. You had two men?

Mr. BARNES. At the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean?

Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were?

Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do?

Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice.

Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred?

Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?

Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of
Tippit's car for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car?

Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?

Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right
front fender.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the
vehicle for fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up
to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might
have placed his hands on there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography?

Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this
work since August 1, 1956.

Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb
equipment or not?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you
are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment?

Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I
think it is necessary.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use?

Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often
use?

Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls
that was turned over to me.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings?

Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene
by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not
sure about that.

Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it.

Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe
that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure.

Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report?

Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search
section.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the
scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time.

Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found
other than these two?

Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up?

Mr. BARNES. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out
to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what?

Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it
up.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen?

Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What
approximate location?

Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle?

Mr. BARNES. The what?

Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out
there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the
immediate vicinity of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What was that?

Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at
the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought
maybe that might have had some significance on the case.

I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a
jacket was discarded by the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that be?

Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over.

Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I
would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map?

Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment,
I will try and get.

Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was
found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to
10th or Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that
separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel?

Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station
around there at all?

Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of
station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but
there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket
was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found
just behind it.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that
correct?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.)

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which
we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the
deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not
the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by
you?

Mr. BARNES. They were.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture
of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40.

Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that
the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that
the way that you found the car when you got there?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or
document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash
of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their
wanted persons names on.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been
made on this clipboard?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there?

Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was.

Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the
clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or
any memorandum paper on the board?

Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes
Deposition Exhibit A?

Mr. BARNES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might
be relevant?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I know.

Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is
Exhibit B?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and
also blood on the street where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on
Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit
fell?

Mr. BARNES. (Circles.)

Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes
Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried
to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the
car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you
could show us the general area where you found the smears?

Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.]

Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the
right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window,
and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front
fender near where the headlight is.

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?

Mr. BARNES. Dirty.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way
affects your ability to lift fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting
a latent print.

Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?

Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.

Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been
removed?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think
is relevant?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what
this is, please?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by
Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene
where the squad car was.

Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking
of any of these pictures by you?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition
Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time?

Mr. BARNES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what
this is?

Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car.

Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly
to the south, is that right?

Mr. BARNES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the
driver's side was up or down?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down.

Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them,
was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state
what this is?

Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the
front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement
where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit
fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer?

Mr. BARNES. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition
Exhibit E that you want to discuss now?

Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is
that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of?

Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also
a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition
Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with
the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask
you to make copies of these.

Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is
that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos.
Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there
appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that
appear to show that they were examined or identified by you?

Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of
Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified.

Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case
hulls, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can
identify it that way?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection,
did you identify out there?

Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain
Doughty received the third.

Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you
put this identification mark on the inside of?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark?

Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen.

Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in
there too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the
slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the
pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there
anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and
Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over
to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that
took them.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant
with regard to your work at the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there?

Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got
through.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day?

Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation
of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any
other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time
of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do those?

Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I
finished with the Tippit car pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my
question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you
took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints.
Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the
spot where you say this jacket was found?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th
and Patton and the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found.

Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the
person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the
theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. The lobby and the place where the arrest was made.

Mr. BELIN. It was after that that you then went to investigate that
major automobile accident?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you investigated or took pictures at this major
automobile accident, then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I returned to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you returned to the city hall?

Mr. BARNES. We started working out the evidence and developing
negatives of all the photos that were taken at the Kennedy
assassination site and also at the Tippit site.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you working with at that time?

Mr. BARNES. We had just about all the manpower of the crime scene
search section working.

Lt. J. C. Day, myself, Detective R. L. Studebaker, Detective J. B.
Hicks, and Detective R. W. Livingston.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know about what time of the day you were doing this?

Mr. BARNES. We started on it, I would say, roughly after I returned to
the city hall. It was getting close to 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this work done?

Mr. BARNES. In the crime scene search section of the identification
bureau.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor is that?

Mr. BARNES. It is on the fourth floor of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. On the fourth floor, were there any people other than police
personnel?

Mr. BARNES. Not where we were; no.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, did you see what the situation was on
the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we could.

Mr. BELIN. What was the situation on the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Turmoil of news media, photographers.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by turmoil?

Mr. BARNES. Well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where
they could get a shot.

Mr. BELIN. By a shot, you mean a picture?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; a photo. Any photos they might get for the newspapers.

In case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. I
presume that is what they were there for.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald on the third floor at the time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they have wires coming through the windows for
television cameras, or not?

Mr. BARNES. There was wires running all over the city hall; cables.

Mr. BELIN. Cables?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about stands for lights, were they there, too?

Mr. BARNES. That's right, they come up with lights and also TV cameras
to cover.

Mr. BELIN. When you say city hall, really the third floor that we are
talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that
correct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you have any estimate of the number of
newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time?

Mr. BARNES. It would be a guess. I wouldn't want to venture to guess,
because it would be just strictly guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. More than 20?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. More than 50?

Mr. BARNES. I am not saying. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, you were working on the fourth
floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. Later we went to the third floor, to the office of Captain
Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What did you go to Captain Fritz' office for?

Mr. BARNES. To make a paraffin test of Lee Harvey Oswald's hand.

Mr. BELIN. About when would this have been, approximately, if you know?

Mr. BARNES. I tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was
after I returned to the city hall, and after 6 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after 6 o'clock?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz call you up and tell you to come down and
make the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't talk to me. I was advised to go to that office to
help make the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. By your supervisor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been?

Mr. BARNES. Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. Now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a
paraffin test, to go to an office such as Captain Fritz' office to do
it?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What would the usual procedure be?

Mr. BARNES. If he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau.

Mr. BELIN. That would be to bring them up to the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. This would have necessitated, I would assume, moving the
prisoner from Captain Fritz' office through the hallway up to the
fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. It would.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did
anyone tell you why?

Mr. BARNES. Well----

Mr. BELIN. That is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin
test down in Captain Fritz' office rather than in your laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No, sir; nobody said anything to me about it.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as
taking the prisoner up to your office from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; you would have to take him through the throng of
newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether this might have presented a
security problem in any way?

Mr. BARNES. It would.

Mr. BELIN. What equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. I took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which
consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test.

Mr. BELIN. Was this your permanent equipment or your portable
equipment? When I say your permanent, I mean your inplace equipment?

Mr. BARNES. It is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working
under makeshift conditions.

Mr. BELIN. When you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"----

Mr. BARNES. Just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on.
We have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section
which makes it handier to work with.

Mr. BELIN. Would the quality of the test be the same?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I think so. The quality would be the same, just takes
a little more time and inconvenience.

Mr. BELIN. When you got down there, what did you do and see? First of
all, who was in the room?

Mr. BARNES. Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Is that L-e-a-v-e-l-l-e?

Mr. BARNES. Right. And Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any discussion, or did you hear Lee Harvey
Oswald say anything or anyone say anything to Lee Harvey Oswald while
you were there?

Mr. BARNES. No conversation.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BARNES. We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and
while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a
paraffin cast of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to that?

Mr. BARNES. It was okay with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about
the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None other than he stated to me, "What are you trying to
do, prove that I fired a gun?"

And I said, "I am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. We have
the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the
city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it."

Mr. BELIN. What is the purpose of a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your
hands.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin
tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. What is the procedure by which you determine whether or not
there are any nitrates on one's hand?

Mr. BARNES. The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their
personnel.

Mr. BELIN. Do they analyze the wax?

Mr. BARNES. They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after the
casts are made.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test
on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my
hands?

Mr. BARNES. It wouldn't be hot wax. It would have to be at a degree
where it would be melted. Take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it
into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall,
and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and
back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick.

Then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for
reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to
reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of
paraffin. In fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to
round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin
from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down
each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove.

Mr. BELIN. You would make two cuts then, one along the side of the
little finger and one along the side of the thumb?

Mr. BARNES. Well, really it is a =V=-cut on the thumb and forefinger,
and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger.

Mr. BELIN. On the side of the palm of the hand?

Mr. BARNES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Have you done any reading as to what this test shows and
what its limitations are at all?

Mr. BARNES. Well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated
paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to
be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there.

This paraffin that you place on the hand--I will rephrase this a little
bit.

When you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on
your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove
the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the
hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the
paraffin.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say nitrates, I believe you used the word
"residue"?

Mr. BARNES. Powder residue and nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. Is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue?

Mr. BARNES. That is what they call the dermal nitrate test, I believe
is the correct name that they give it.

Mr. BELIN. Does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of
nitrate compound?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If I were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate
on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It should, unless it is awful tight.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by "awful tight"?

Mr. BARNES. You could have an automatic which very easily could keep
you from having nitrate on your hands.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's assume that we were taking a .38 caliber pistol.
You have seen the pistol which Lee Harvey Oswald had in his possession
at the time he was apprehended.

Let's assume I were firing that pistol. Would it leave some residue on
my hand?

Mr. BARNES. It should.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were to wash my hands between the time I fired it
and the time you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It would hurt the test.

Mr. BELIN. It would cut down the test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now if I were firing it, would it necessarily show on both
hands? Suppose I were right-handed?

Mr. BARNES. Depends on the location of your left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Well, generally from your experience, is there any
particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he
is firing a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the
pistol handle.

Mr. BELIN. As an element of controlling it?

Mr. BARNES. As an element of controlling, and also an element which, if
you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left
hand to take the gun.

Mr. BELIN. If you keep it near then, I assume that you would get the
nitrate on the other hand, too, or not?

Mr. BARNES. Very likely that you would.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge
case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where
the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my
hand?

Mr. BARNES. It is possible.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find
no nitrate deposits at all. Would you say that this conclusively shows
that I did not fire a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, does it conclusively show I had not fired a pistol
within the last 6 or 8 or 10 hours?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. BARNES. Well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it were a .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands
or whether you had had gloves on.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose I were to tell you I didn't have gloves on.

Mr. BARNES. Had you washed your hands?

Mr. BELIN. Well, would this make much of a difference?

Mr. BARNES. Washing your hands would make a difference.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing
a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or
semiautomatic. Would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands
that a paraffin test would show?

Mr. BARNES. Chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a
revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Why?

Mr. BARNES. Because your chamber is enclosed.

Mr. BELIN. What difference does that make?

Mr. BARNES. The powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the
cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a
revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all
the way around.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a
difference about letting the gas or residue escape?

Mr. BARNES. No; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel.
It is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. There is
no pressure there.

Mr. BELIN. What you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the
time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of
this residue?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's
hands, and by positive, I mean it would show the presence of nitrate,
would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the
person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a .38 caliber
revolver, or a bolt-action rifle?

I mean a nonautomatic revolver?

Mr. BARNES. Let me get your question to see if I am correct. If there
were nitrates present?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind would I come to the conclusion that it would
probably come from a revolver? Rather than a rifle?

Mr. BELIN. Well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. Which
would be more likely?

Mr. BARNES. The revolver would be more likely.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands.
Do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we do.

Mr. BELIN. When you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any
other part of the body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. In this case, did you take it of any other portion of the
body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What other portion of the body did you take it of?

Mr. BARNES. The right side of his cheek and face.

Mr. BELIN. The right side of Lee Harvey Oswald's cheek and face?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who directed you to take it there?

Mr. BARNES. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. I was ordered
to take it from him, and I took it because I had the order to take the
test.

Mr. BELIN. Was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. Roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an
average?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. If I hit it lucky, I won't make
too many. If it hits on some other man's duty. It would be hard to say
how many I have made over a period of time. I can say that I have made
many.

Mr. BELIN. Over these years, do you think you have made as many as 100?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. I am not going to go into any
actual figures because it would be guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. Of the paraffin tests that you
have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks?

Mr. BARNES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of
anyone's cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you might not have in any other
case?

Mr. BARNES. It has never been requested of me before.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information about the science of
paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or
not a common practice to make it of one cheek?

Mr. BARNES. It is not a common practice.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you
can think of or know of?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, I would say
the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue
wouldn't reach his cheek?

Mr. BELIN. What about a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel
metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote.

Mr. BELIN. Have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. How close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be
looking through the sight of the gun.

Mr. BARNES. Be several inches to the rear of the chamber.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all?

Mr. BARNES. It sure would.

Mr. BELIN. What about telescopic sights? Would that push your face back
further or not?

Mr. BARNES. Push it even further back.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have an effect on the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The further you get from the chamber, the less possibility
of getting powder residue on it would be.

Mr. BELIN. When you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also
paint it on with this brush that you are talking about?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. To about a quarter of an inch thickness?

Mr. BARNES. Not quite that much.

Mr. BELIN. When you put the gauze on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you put some more paraffin on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you cool it with water, or let it
naturally harden by room temperature?

Mr. BARNES. Nature cools it from room temperature.

Mr. BELIN. Then you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with these paraffin tests after you made
them?

Mr. BARNES. I placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I walked out of Captain Fritz' office, and I had a couple
of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that
I could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the
fourth floor, the ID bureau.

Mr. BELIN. The news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at
that time?

Mr. BARNES. I would say it was pretty well jammed.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of the night was this?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 9 o'clock, I would say, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald say anything to you as you were
removing these casts, that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. Very little, other than what I repeated to you before, that
he knew what I was trying to do, and that I was wasting my time, that
he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald leave Captain Fritz' office at that
time or did he stay there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't go back, I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. He didn't come out with you, did he?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the
people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office?
Questions or remarks or what have you?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. BARNES. They kept storming questions at me, "What have you got in
that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media
to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?"

Mr. BELIN. Would this just come from one person?

Mr. BARNES. All of them.

Mr. BELIN. About how many of them were there at that time?

Mr. BARNES. They had the hallways blocked.

Mr. BELIN. Did you reply to them at all or not?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. You then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that
correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our
locked evidence room.

Mr. BELIN. Where did they go after that?

Mr. BARNES. They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that city-county laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. At Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when they went there?

Mr. BARNES. The following morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get the results from this analysis at all?

Mr. BARNES. The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn't get the
results.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what these results were?

Mr. BARNES. I understand--I haven't seen them personally--but I
understand they are positive, the ones of his hands.

Mr. BELIN. By positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates?

Mr. BARNES. They showed the presence of nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. The one of his cheek was negative.

Mr. BELIN. Were any conclusions made because of either the positive
results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test
of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind, I didn't expect any positive report from
the cheek to start with. But to cut down criticism and to satisfy the
public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well,
we did it for possibly any future--I don't know how to word it--any
complaints that might come later on.

Mr. BELIN. By complaints, you mean people that might----

Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on
something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done
the best that we knew how.

Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it.

From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in
shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle
has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you
fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. No; I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek
after that person fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin
test I ever made of a cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test?
Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a
rifle by making a cast of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it.

Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion
are your own personal reasons?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed
chamber, is that it?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under
pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a
shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad
pressure?

Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel.
There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot
is fired.

Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the
trigger, is the back of the chamber open then?

Mr. BARNES. It is open.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us
with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you
can think of, whether or not I have asked it?

Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything.

Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know.

Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself.

Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common.

Mr. BARNES. Still live there.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other
evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin
that you made?

Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do this?

Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am
sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards?

Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when
we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just
what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation----

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or
did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here?

Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no
one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print?

Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison
purposes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts?

Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered
the paraffin tests upstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print
in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them
coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald
wasn't brought up to your identification bureau?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What?

Mr. BARNES. Security.

Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall?

Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee
Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen.

Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down
the hallway to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all
kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much
longer is it going to take, and what have you proved.

Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain
Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain
Fritz' office when you came back?

Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective
Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present?

Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time?

Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints
of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that?

Mr. BARNES. Cooperative.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the
taking of any palm prints?

Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or
not?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint
card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's
signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he
wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney
when you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the
fingerprint card?

Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me.

Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take
fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. We took both.

Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that?

Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then
we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place
the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint
card.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as
to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a
person?

Mr. BARNES. Just as good as fingerprints The only thing that I could
add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where
with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go
look them up.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can offer with reference
to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer
Tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests
that you took?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of right now, other than printing
pictures of both killings.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Lee Oswald said other
than the fact he would not sign his name to the card?

Mr. BARNES. He had very little to say.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have
asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation
here?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can think of at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now were you on duty on Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any general comment among the police officers,
what I call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the
police headquarters building during this period of time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we discussed it.

Mr. BELIN. Without mentioning any names which might embarrass any
individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the
general nature or tenor of that discussion?

Mr. BARNES. Disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; there were.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the
press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police
department?

Mr. BARNES. It would be just like you carrying on your work in your
office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as
that is concerned.

Mr. BELIN. Were there people other than newspapermen generally in the
police headquarters?

Mr. BARNES. It is hard to tell just who was who.

Mr. BELIN. Now you were not there at the time of the shooting of Lee
Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, were you?

Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the television showing of the film that ran
during the--during that time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have had some experience, you said earlier, as a
photographer, I believe, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light
such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the
fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the
ability of officers protecting Lee Harvey Oswald to discern movements
of people?

Mr. BARNES. Very much.

Mr. BELIN. In what way?

Mr. BARNES. Blinding them. The flash from the many cameras that were
present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your TV
cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding
any prisoner.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of with reference to
the security matters of Lee Harvey Oswald that might be relevant here
other than your statements about the press and the problems of light?

Mr. BARNES. Other than the movement of him with the throngs of press
men, which the security I thought was very good.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of right now?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add in this
deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant?

Mr. BARNES. I think this pretty well covers it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in
coming down here, sergeant.

Mr. BARNES. I am glad to come. Hate to come under these circumstances.

Mr. BELIN. We hate to be here under these circumstances. It is not a
pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. All
right, sir.

I forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your
deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the
court reporter send it to us in Washington.

Mr. BARNES. I believe I will come back and let her show it to me, and I
will sign it then.



TESTIMONY OF J. B. HICKS

The testimony of J. B. Hicks was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A.
Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand.

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. HICKS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, and your address?

Mr. HICKS. J. B. Hicks, 4318 Matilda, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. HICKS. I am with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. You are with the special section of the department?

Mr. HICKS. The identification bureau; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the identification bureau?

Mr. HICKS. Let's see, about, a little over 7 years now.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about yourself--where you were born.

Mr. HICKS. I was born in Irving, Tex., which is a suburb out here of
Dallas, September 29, 1918.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. HICKS. I finished high school, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. HICKS. Then--you mean where I went to work and from there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HICKS. I worked a short while for Sanger Bros., I believe 3 or 4
months or so, then I was employed by Higgenbotham-Bailey Logan Co.
which is a wholesale company here in Dallas; from there I went to work
with the police department where I have been for a little over 22 years
now.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do with the crime lab?

Mr. HICKS. I do the usual, oh, photography work, fingerprint
comparisons, darkroom work and anything that might come under the crime
lab; the crime scene, search duties.

Mr. BALL. You work under Lieutenant Day?

Mr. HICKS. I work under Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I was off duty that day.

Mr. BALL. But you were called back to duty?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time of day?

Mr. HICKS. I had--my wife, I believe it was called me from her work.
She had heard of the happening and knowing that I was off, of course,
she figured I would be called, so when she called me, I called in to
Lieutenant Knight, who is also in the identification bureau, and told
him that I was getting ready and if they needed me to report, to call
me and tell me where to go to, and so he did. Oh, I don't know exactly
how long it had taken place and the exact time that he did call me. The
time right there, I can't recall. I know I did get to work somewhere
around 3.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work, at the crime lab?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; they told me to report directly to Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you went down there what did you find?

Mr. HICKS. Lieutenant Day--well, first I saw Chief Lumpkin, who told
me Lieutenant Day was there in the building and to report to him on
the sixth floor, I believe it was and he and Detective Studebaker, I
believe it was were the two that were still on that particular floor.

Mr. BALL. Day and Studebaker?

Mr. HICKS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you do some work with them?

Mr. HICKS. Yes; there was--well, no. Lieutenant Day was dusting several
items around there for fingerprints at the time and Mr. Studebaker
had taken some pictures and was still taking a few others. I assisted
him in moving the equipment back and forth and I don't know, I don't
believe I actually took any of the pictures upstairs; however, I was
there when some of them were taken.

Mr. BALL. There were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor,
weren't there?

Mr. HICKS. Yes; I am not sure; I believe they had already been picked
up and removed when I arrived.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked them up?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't know off hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you later see them in your laboratory?

Mr. HICKS. I believe I saw one of the particular ones there that night.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. I think Lieutenant Day had all of them.

Mr. BALL. Do you do ballistics work in your laboratory?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any
of the guns there.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any identification work on either the
assassination of President Kennedy or the investigation of Tippit's
murder?

Mr. HICKS. Do you mean as far as fingerprints?

Mr. BALL. Yes; and things of that sort.

Mr. HICKS. Let me see now, I took a set of Oswald's prints from him
that night some time. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. 9 o'clock or so?

Mr. HICKS. It was some time in that area.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you took the prints?

Mr. HICKS. I was in Captain Fritz' office. In other words, I made
those on an inkless pad. That's a pad we use for fingerprinting people
without the black ink that they make for the records.

Mr. BALL. What else did you do there?

Mr. HICKS. I was one of the two who made the paraffin cast on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and who else?

Mr. HICKS. Sergeant Barnes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever done that before, the paraffin cast?

Mr. HICKS. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as
the making of them.

Mr. BALL. Did you test the paraffin cast; did you make any test on it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; that's done by the lab at Parkland Hospital which
Lieutenant Alexander, I believe is in charge there.

Mr. BALL. But you did not do it yourself?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What has been your experience with paraffin casts? How
accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a
firearm previously?

Mr. HICKS. My own personal opinion is that it is not an exact
conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything
containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort.

Mr. BALL. Is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a
rifle has been fired?

Mr. HICKS. That is the first time that I had the opportunity to make a
paraffin test on a person's face.

Mr. BALL. You never made one before?

Mr. HICKS. Never before.

Mr. BALL. The other tests were always on the hands?

Mr. HICKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason for that?

Mr. HICKS. I had never had the occasion arise that I know of where
anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. On
other occasions they were only interested in the hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you do anything else with respect to the investigation?

Mr. HICKS. I don't recall anything outstanding that I did in the
investigation further there. Now, I know we were all pretty well busy
there until about 2 or 2:30 in the morning but most of it was, I would
imagine regular officework and just back and forth if someone had
asked did we get a picture of this and picture of that; well, I can't
recall any other particular item that I might have done.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when Oswald was arraigned in the
identification bureau?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I left just a few minutes before that, I understand.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave; do you know?

Mr. HICKS. I left it was shortly after 2. I don't know the exact time,
maybe 2:15.

Mr. BALL. You think he was arraigned after you left?

Mr. HICKS. I am rather certain that he was because I believe I would
have known about it had he been arraigned before I left because there
is only one door in our office to go out and had any other group been
there, I would have noticed it, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald any?

Mr. HICKS. I only asked him his name when I made his fingerprints and I
did not question him or go to any details on talking to him.

Mr. BALL. You were not present at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any fingerprint study in this case or palmprint
study?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir--any comparisons to the prints that we had?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. You did not compare the prints you took of Oswald with
any specimen that might have been taken from the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken
from the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. HICKS. Paper bag?

Mr. BALL. Paper bag.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken
bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up.

Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper;
did you ever see it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks.

Mr. HICKS. All right.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for signature if
you want, or you can waive signature; which do you prefer?

Mr. HICKS. Well, when would I have to come back to sign this?

Mr. BALL. Probably next week sometime.

Mr. HICKS. Well, that will be all right.

Mr. BALL. Suit yourself, either way. If you want to waive signature
it's all right with us or if you want to come back.

Mr. HICKS. I will come back.

Mr. BALL. All right, she will notify you. Thanks very much.



TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES

The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 4 p.m., on April 2, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.


Mr. BELIN. Sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLMES. I do, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Holmes?

Mr. HOLMES. 1711 McManus, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HOLMES. Postal inspector.

Mr. BELIN. For the U.S. Post Office Department?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. HOLMES. I am 57.

Mr. BELIN. What is your educational background? Did you go to high
school here?

Mr. HOLMES. I graduated from high school in Kansas City, and went
2 years to William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo., and went almost
through my third year in Kansas City. Went to dental college in Kansas
City.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. Well, all that time I was working in the post office as a
clerk, and about that time the war broke out and I went into the Postal
Inspection Service in April 1942, and have been a postal inspector ever
since.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been in Dallas ever since then?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I came here July 1, 1948. I have been here ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That
is the day of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal
annex building, located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets,
Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Houston and Commerce Streets in Dallas. Now, where is
Commerce with relation to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. Commerce, Main, Elm--two blocks.

Mr. BELIN. So Commerce would be two blocks south of Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. On what corner is your building?

Mr. HOLMES. It is on the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. The northeast corner?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; well, now, wait a minute.

Mr. BELIN. I mean the building itself.

Mr. HOLMES. This is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass,
comes down like this, and this is Elm, and this is Main, and this is
Commerce, and my building is right here. Right here is the School Book.

Mr. BELIN. This is north?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; that is "cattywampus." This would be the southwest
corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You have now corrected your testimony by drawing
a diagram. What corner is this?

Mr. HOLMES. Southwest.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the building is your office where you were
sitting?

Mr. HOLMES. On the north side.

Mr. BELIN. From your office looking north, what building would you see?

Mr. HOLMES. The Texas School Book Depository Building. And I am on the
fifth floor of my building.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was
coming down Main Street?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the motorcade turn from Main onto Houston?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What direction did it turn on Houston?

Mr. HOLMES. It turned north on Houston to Elm, and then turned left on
Elm.

Mr. BELIN. To go down to the triple underpass?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if
you have any estimate on it?

Mr. HOLMES. I would say 15 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe what you saw and heard then?

Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting
on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor
Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the
middle seat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7-1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were
acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not
standing up. This is a short block.

Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the
motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on
Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple
underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard
what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that
there were three of them.

I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the
time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging
somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but
I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the dust?

Mr. HOLMES. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one
of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that
elapsed between each of the three sounds?

Mr. HOLMES. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me.
Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or
something like that.

Mr. BELIN. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than
20 seconds?

Mr. HOLMES. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and
kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to
that. I have tried to recall it.

Mr. BELIN. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or
between the second and third?

Mr. HOLMES. I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see after that?

Mr. HOLMES. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as
this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to
a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the
turtleback of this Presidential car and was almost off of the back of
the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and I
never--I got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him
on the bumper.

I got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back
in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. It was so quick
that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. There was
several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over
this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the Secret
Service man or the Secret Service man was trying to get her back in the
car, and this was our impression.

Policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and
with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. I saw many people
down on the ground, and I have one particular couple in mind that I had
watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman
down. I remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a
gun away from her, or something, and by that time I decided maybe there
was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers.

He had her down on the ground. But then it later developed that he was
trying to protect her from the shots. But then I didn't know that at
the time. And I did watch her as they got up. Then different people hid
around behind pillars in this arbor.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. HOLMES. Then just people went from every direction hunting around
the railroad yard and among the cars parked in the area. I saw a
policeman rushing into the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Was this a motorcycle policemen?

Mr. HOLMES. I did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or
two or three--with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms
rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. And I thought maybe they
might have been shooting to frighten the people.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the noise sound like it came from?

Mr. HOLMES. It reverberated among the buildings and I couldn't tell
you. It sounded like from the crowd over there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else happen that afternoon that you think is
important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is
concerned?

Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with
my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad
tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they
were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole
area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track?

Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner.

Mr. BELIN. I want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes.

Now, what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the
assassination or the investigation?

Mr. HOLMES. I never quit. I didn't get to bed for 2 days.

Mr. BELIN. Tell us what you did that you feel might be important that
we should record here.

Mr. HOLMES. Of course I was in contact with the chief inspector in
Washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and I remember once
he called and he said, "Well, now, could the shots have come from the
terminal annex building. Has your office been shaken out, the annex."
Of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature
there of any importance. I was doing all I could to help other agencies.

One of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the
radio reports came in about the apprehension of Lee Oswald following
the shooting of Officer Tippit, and said, "I think you ought to know,
Mr. Holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a Lee Oswald recently,
and it is box number so-and-so".

That was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal
annex. That box is No. 6225.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked as Holmes Deposition
Exhibit No. 1. I will ask you to state what this is.

Mr. HOLMES. That is a photo copy of the original box rental application
completed by Lee H. Oswald covering box No. 6225, which he completed on
November the 1st, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice over here in--a notation on the side 11-22-63, with
some initials on it. Do you know what that is?

Mr. HOLMES. Those are my initials and they indicate that I took the
original box application from the post office records on that date.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it?

Mr. HOLMES. I turned it over to an FBI agent at a later date. I don't
know when.

Mr. BELIN. Did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing
with Lee Oswald?

Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't
identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could
not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because
I have talked to him about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or
the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American
Civil Liberties Union," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through
there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the
residential address when he rented the box.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of
November 1, 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this
thing out himself.

Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp,
that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box
number is written in as "6225".

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box
than there is for anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on
December 31.

Mr. BELIN. What year?

Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any
surveillance on it?

Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about
well into Sunday, I think, 3 days.

Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records,
for the box?

Mr. HOLMES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department?

Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had
taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have
numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is
this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers,
and it was.

Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key
number?

Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition
Exhibit 1 here?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in
that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed.
No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the
"Daily Worker," now.

Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American
newspaper?

Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a
couple of Russian newspapers came there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in
Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this
application that you care to talk about?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with
pertaining to the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning----

Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23?

Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex,
and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent
had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post
office money order.

He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington,
but would have to know the number of the post office money order.

So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number.

So I knew about the post office money order. They said that
Oswald--they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the
information that, I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI
after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information
that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make
and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago,
that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information
that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had
been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from
Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I
immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records
with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to
buy this gun.

I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning,
Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute,
let's back up.

I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on
outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that
I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?

Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack.

Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this
magazine? Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2.

Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98.

Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes
Deposition Exhibit 2."

Was that the page you tore out?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns
identified on that page.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I see one circled in red, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red?

Mr. HOLMES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope
on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And
underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall.
Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready
for shooting. Turned-down bolt 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is
marked "$12.78."

Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95.

Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And
underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x-3/4"
diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is
a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. It is marked "Klein's
Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois,"
then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash
customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise
specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order ... $1.50
on shotgun and rifles."

Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for
putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the
$19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope,
and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for
postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45.

I thought you said the FBI said $21.95?

Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been
looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago
office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting
Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun
in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of
Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was
$21.95--$21.45--excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received
this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for
March 20.

So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this
money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the
number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.

I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th
because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have
gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within
10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that
amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order
in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as
this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had
been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. To whom?

Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in.

Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is
purchased--purchasing----

Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get----

Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number
there. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Just now?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office
before he went to New Orleans?

Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State?

Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing
information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this
inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you
when I first realized he had this box.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked "Holmes Deposition Exhibit
3," and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. HOLMES. That is a photostatic copy of the original box rental
application covering the rental of box 2915, at the main post office
in Dallas, Tex., which shows that it was completed on October the
9th, 1962. The applicants name was Lee H. Oswald, home address, 3519
Fairmore Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Signed Lee H. Oswald. It shows that the
box was closed on May 14, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, it is stamped date box opened, October 9, 1962. And
that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at
the bottom of it.

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you found this postal money order and then
what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. Off the record, let me ask you something. I questioned him
about this box and all the angles with it during this interview.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that.

Mr. HOLMES. I didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. Then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called
Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money
order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief
inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out
the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special
conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington
now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I
asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been
issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the
correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct
money order or not.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know about the use of the name A. J. Hidell?

Mr. HOLMES. When the box was opened in the name of Lee H. Oswald.
Because for two reasons. I--one is, when he rented the post office box
in New Orleans, he used the name of A. J. Hidell as one of the persons
entitled to receive mail in that box.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you know about that?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what else?

Mr. HOLMES. In his billfold the police had found a draft registration
card in the name of A. J. Hidell on his person at the time of his
arrest, and I had seen it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else now about this money order? Do you have a
record of the number of the money order?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what was the next thing you did in connection
with the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of
addresses as bits of information to the FBI and the Secret Service, and
sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about Sunday morning about
9:20----

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me a second. (Discussion off the record.) Anything
else now, Mr Holmes?

Mr. HOLMES. I might cover the record of his rental of the post office
box in New Orleans. Do you want me to go into that?

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. The box rental records at New Orleans show that on June the
3d, 1963, post office box 30061 was rented to L. H. Oswald. Let me see
there. Some of my information comes at times I see 30061 and at times I
see 30016. I had it two places. One is a written memorandum on that new
setup, and the other is what I took over the phone, and both of them
show 61.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. I think I got a copy.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right, you can go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. This is at the Lafayette Square Station in New Orleans. At
that time he showed his home address as 657 French Street, New Orleans.
On this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to
also receive mail in the box, Marina Oswald, and A. J. Hidell. This box
was closed on September 26, 1963, with instructions to forward mail
addressed to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.

At the time this information was checked out in New Orleans by Postal
Inspector Joe Zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "The Militant,"
were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. But there was
a slipup. I hate to admit that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. I presume my next part in connection with this was when I
joined the interrogation period of Oswald on Sunday morning of November
24 at about 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the
occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be
there?

Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous
occasions during this 2-1/2-day period.

On this morning I had no appointment. I actually started to church with
my wife. I got to church and I said, "You get out, I am going down and
see if I can do something for Captain Fritz. I imagine he is as sleepy
as I am."

So I drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as
I did, Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready
to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the
county jail. Would you like to join us?"

I said "I would."

We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present
were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V.
Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley,
inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three
detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding
Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have
a written memorandum there of that interview?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make
your written memorandum?

Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your
recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people
there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by
section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on
Sunday morning?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on
that? I wonder perhaps what we might do is, I am going to see if I have
a copy of this, and if I can, to attach just as a--is this an extra
copy that you have here?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I guess you can. Let me tear that top off.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to mark this as "Holmes Deposition Exhibit No.
4." This is a memorandum of your interview?

Mr. HOLMES. That I dictated on December 17, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. That is about 4 weeks after the interview took place; is
that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a few notes. I had no reason for such a statement
except that about that time the FBI asked me--they learned that I
had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if I would object to
giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my
statement. Part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice--well, you might just, without even looking at
the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went
on there.

Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality to the interrogation. One man would
question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of
thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal
questioning or interrogation.

Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he
wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that
he didn't want to answer.

And those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything
that pertained with the assassination of the President or the shooting
of Officer Tippit. He flatly denied any knowledge of either.

He was not particularly obnoxious. He seemed to be intelligent. He
seemed to be clearminded. He seemed to have a good memory, because in
questioning him about the boxes, which I had original applications
in front of me, he was pretty accurate. He knew box numbers and he
answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as
verified by the box rental applications that I had in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him?

Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair
of trousers.

Mr. BELIN. What color trousers?

Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say.

Mr. BELIN. What color shirt?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not
outstanding. I don't know what color actually he had on. I do know, I
can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that.

Mr. BELIN. He put on a black sweater?

Mr. HOLMES. Toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember Captain Fritz showing a map, showing
Oswald a map of the city of Dallas which had been recovered from his
room?

Mr. HOLMES. He didn't show the map. He only mentioned the map and asked
him about a certain map that had markings on it, and Oswald said,
"Well, I presume you have reference to a map that I had in my room that
had some X's on it."

And, he said, "Well, tell us about that one. Why were the X's on there?
What did that designate?"

And he said that, "I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance.
I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. And I had my
applications in with Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me
names and addresses of places that had openings like I might could
fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I
might could get. I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on
this map so that I could plan my itinerary around with less walking,
and each one of those represented a place where I went and interviewed
for a job."

And he said, "You can check each one of them out if you want to."

Then Captain Fritz mentioned the X at the intersection of Elm and
Houston.

Well, he said, "That is the location of the Texas School Depository and
I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got a job there." He
said, "That is all the map amounts to."

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about that aspect of the
interrogation?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember Inspector Kelley asking Oswald about his
religious views?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Someone, and I don't recall who, asked the first
question on that, but you got that Lenin business in there.

Mr. BELIN. I am deliberately asking you these questions before we get
to your memorandum, and I am just trying to get your memory first.

Mr. HOLMES. All right. Someone asked him about what his beliefs were,
and he said, "Well," about him being a Communist something. Someone
referred to his communism, and he said, "I am not a Communist. I am a
Marxist." And they said, what is the difference between Communist and
Marxist, and he said, "Well, a Communist is a Lenin Marxist, and I am a
true Karl Marxist."

So, this Secret Service inspector asked, "What religion are you?" In
other words, I mean, "What faith are you, as far as religion?" And he
said, "I have no faith." And then he said, "I suppose you mean the
Bible."

"Yes, that is right."

"Well," he said, "I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but
not very interesting. But, as a matter of fact, I am a student of
philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or
intelligent philosophy. I don't think much of it," he said.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone there ask him if Cuba would be better off since
the President was assassinated? Do you remember anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall a question on that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anyone asking him a question about the
rifle, or there was a picture of Oswald holding a rifle. Do you
remember anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you
holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him
about this rifle that came to this post office box.

They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."

Well, "Have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the Marines?"

He said, "No." Then he backed up and said, "Well, possibly a small
bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine
Corps."

"Do you own a rifle?"

"Absolutely not. How would I afford a rifle. I make $1.25 an hour. I
can't hardly feed myself."

Then he said, "What about this picture of you holding this rifle?"

"Well, I don't know what you are talking about."

He just cut it off. As I recall, he refused to even acknowledge there
was such a picture. They had none of these exhibits in the room.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you
were there?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called
Neely Street, that you remember? Or Captain Fritz, did he say that he
told Oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had
seen Oswald there? Do you remember at this time anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything--pardon me.

Mr. HOLMES. I remember Fritz, I think, describe the fellow, and he just
ignored it. He was vague about it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any statements that Oswald made about any
fight in New Orleans about Marxism or fair play for Cuba or anything?
Does that ring a bell with you?

Mr. HOLMES. I knew all about it, and I knew the police records and all,
but I don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek
Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell?

Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent
to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box
2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said,
"Absolutely not."

"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?"

He said, "No."

"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?"

"No, absolutely not."

"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?"

He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my
wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it
is possible she could have."

"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him.

And he said, "I don't know any such person."

I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New
Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to
receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said,
"Well, that is my wife, so what?"

And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell."

"Well, I don't know anything about that."

That is all he would say about it.

Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we
got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it,
where it showed A. J. Hidell."

"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he
said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card
in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as
much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only
time that he flared up.

Mr. BELIN. Was there ever any mention at the time you were there of
the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? Do you remember
anything about that at all, or not?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? Do you remember
anything about that at all?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had----

Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had
gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No."

"Well, do you want an attorney?"

And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from
New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him.

And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned
something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't
remember the name, but they discussed that.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for
any lawyer?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of
police came to the office?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several
people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I
noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door,
and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the
appearance of being impatient.

But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and
said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask
him."

Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window
and would be impatient?

Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others,
but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were
waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact,
the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to
talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer."

And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient
outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer.

Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds.

Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed?

Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and
through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once
in a while they would crack the door and look in.

Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth.

Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office?

Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is.

Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here?

Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet.

Mr. BELIN. How many doors?

Mr. HOLMES. One door.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other
than the police officers, that you know of?

Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their
names.

Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now.

Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is
still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall
where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms.

Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has
one private office of his own, and that is where we were.

Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between
Chief Curry and Captain Fritz?

Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a
hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and
I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of
those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he
said, "Give me the black one."

So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting
that on, Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took
Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed
in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying
to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what
they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't
distinguish one thing that was said.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that
back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and
said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your
clothes?"

And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong
sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they
uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up,
and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of =V=-neck
sweater.

Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with
the two Secret Service men.

Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street.
Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the
reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the
sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go
down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a
better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have
my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my
office, so I will just take my own car."

So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my
office, which probably took me ten minutes.

When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and
walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this
box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "Well, they got
Oswald now."

I said, "What are you talking about?"

"Well, they have shot Oswald."

They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That
is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I
left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." And just
then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure
enough, they shot him.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement
where they were going to transfer Oswald?

Mr. HOLMES. No; out on the street.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police
officer about Oswald getting shot?

Mr. HOLMES. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way.

Mr. BELIN. Not since then with any other police officer?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee Harvey
Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you
remember?

Mr. HOLMES. When I was discussing with him about rental application for
Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that
anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No."

I said, "Who did you show as your--what did you show as your business?

And he said, "I didn't show anything."

I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for
Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'."

Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there."

I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?"

He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money."

"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?"

And he said, "No."

He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee?

Mr. HOLMES. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the
organization of it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that
Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the
head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be
real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually,
it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably
you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money."
In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a
little money to get literature and work with."

Then I asked--oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a
well organized or a better organization."

Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came
to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he
said, "No, not at all."

"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas?

"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is
about all he said about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about
his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions
there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro
employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him,
and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and
take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the
elevator back up."

He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on.
Nobody seemed to ask him.

You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in
previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said,
"Send the elevator back up to me."

Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on
downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He
said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all
about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door,
and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the
place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees
of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we
will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what
it was all about."

And he wouldn't tell what happened then.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the
commotion--he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed,
but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic
person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head,
and he goes like that, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut
in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember
anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything
about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building?

Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back--I don't know whether he
said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your
telephone?"

And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he
identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer,
and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look
at and said, "Where is the telephone?"

And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went
on out.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?

Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and
went out to see what it was about.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home?

Mr. HOLMES. They didn't--we didn't go into that. I just assumed that
they had covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he
walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked
him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you
are talking about."

He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped
a policeman in the nose in a threatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I
readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself."

Mr. BELIN. Because he was what?

Mr. HOLMES. "Protecting myself."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during
our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you
have been testifying just from memory, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal
memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you
have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt.

I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is
anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time.

Mr. HOLMES. Read it aloud or to myself?

Mr. BELIN. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can
remember to elaborate.

Mr. HOLMES. The only part I have not covered would be the impression
that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to
a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a
polygraph test, a lie detector.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you would care to elaborate?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second
paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes."

That is really the third paragraph on the page.

Mr. HOLMES. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is
the last paragraph on the first page.

Mr. HOLMES. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on
it.

Mr. BELIN. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page.

Mr. HOLMES. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that
the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that
it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office
forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to
change the address on a newspaper.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life
in Russia?

Mr. HOLMES. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was
her home town.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he
told us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit,
because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting
those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about
going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't
spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he
said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost
$26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous
small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy
to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the
talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little
amount.

They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"

"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the
conversation.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?

Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?

Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw
in Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or
something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to
Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out
of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the
business about how mad it made him.

He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American.
This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.

Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then
he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba
and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days,"
or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?

Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my
recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever
he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the
Russian to go by Cuba.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the
memorandum that you wrote?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up
from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?

Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.

Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum.

I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said
that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is
reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4?

Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the
forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2?

Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the
third and last paragraph on the page.

Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive
about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties
Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it.

Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything
you care to add to that statement?

Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance
there.

Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything
you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here?

Mr. HOLMES. All right as is.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3?

Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine
Corps Service."

Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet.

Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to
add other than what is written on there?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally?

Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the
distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when
Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was
shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward
him. I remember that distinctly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read
that and see if there is anything you care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page?

Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it.

Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3?

Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when
asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he
normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular
weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a
house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time.
And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you
remember?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods?

Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car
with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes."

"What was in the sack?"

"Well, my lunch."

"What size sack did you have?"

He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack
that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."

"Was it a long sack?"

"Well, it could have been."

"What did you do with it?"

"Carried it in my lap."

"You didn't put it over in the back seat?"

"No." He said he wouldn't have done that.

"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long
package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at
work and you laid it over on the back seat."

He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other
time he picked me up."

That is all he said about it.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods.

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next
paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum.
You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence
about the curtain rods?

Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first
paragraph on page 4?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his
whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on
that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration.

Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell
identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is
anything on that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he
was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the
shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just
coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently
there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that,
if you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing
there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on
page 4?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last
paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything
else you care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you
think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr.
Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that
was involved in the purchase of the rifle?

Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and
matched the original money or