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Title: Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ VIII
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume
VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S.
O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle
Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were
associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn
Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic,
Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while
he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick
Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George
Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis
Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr.,
Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis
Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service
in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who
saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A.
Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H.
Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became
acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Edward Voebel 1
William E. Wulf 15
Bennierita Smith 21
Frederick S. O'Sullivan 27
Mildred Sawyer 31
Anne Boudreaux 35
Viola Peterman 38
Myrtle Evans 45
Julian Evans 66
Philip Eugene Vinson 75
Hiram Conway 84
Lillian Murret 91
Marilyn Dorothea Murret 154
Charles Murret 180
John M. Murret 188
Edward John Pic, Jr 196
John Carro 202
Renatus Hartogs 214
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel 224
Nelson Delgado 228
Daniel Patrick Powers 266
John E. Donovan 289
Allison G. Folsom, Jr 303
George Donabedian 311
James Anthony Botelho 315
Donald Peter Camarata 316
Peter Francis Connor 317
Allen D. Graf 317
John Rene Heindel 318
David Christie Murray, Jr 319
Paul Edward Murphy 319
Henry J. Roussel, Jr 320
Mack Osborne 321
Richard Dennis Call 322
Erwin Donald Lewis 323
Martin Isaacs 324
Pauline Virginia Bates 330
Max E. Clark 343
George A. Bouhe 355
Anna N. Meller 379
Elena A. Hall 391
John Raymond Hall 406
Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) 415
Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin 425
Igor Vladimir Voshinin 448
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Bates Exhibit No. 1 340
Carro Exhibit No. 1 213
Donabedian Exhibit No. 1 312
Folsom Exhibit No. 1 304
Hartogs Exhibit No. 1 220
Isaacs Exhibit No.:
1 328
2 328
3 328
Siegel Exhibit No.:
1 227
2 228
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL
The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old
Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Edward Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your place of business?
Mr. VOEBEL. At the same place.
Mr. JENNER. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that's here in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your
mother and father, are you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mother, uncle, and grandmother.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your business?
Mr. VOEBEL. Quality Florist Co.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age, Mr. Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. I am 23.
Mr. JENNER. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of
the Warren Commission, did you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate
Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to
investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B.
Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
this one. You received that also?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you gather from those documents that the
Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and
circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the
late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking
depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey
Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of
their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of
the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some
contact with him; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a few questions about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey
Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that
came about.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was?
Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about
1954 or 1955.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole
story?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would
like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him,
because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing
who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this
fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and
tried to patch him up a bit.
Mr. JENNER. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you
remember?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances of that, please.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee
had a fight with a couple of boys.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names?
Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.
Mr. JENNER. John and Mike?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were classmates?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as
Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a
grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight
with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I
think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the
street in the direction naturally in which I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and
people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place,
and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run
them off of one block, they would go on to the next.
Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. How about size?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than
Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way.
The fight traveled my route home.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the
street?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the
little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was
two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch
to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.
Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer.
Mr. JENNER. The little boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that
happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for
some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against
one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that
this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that
this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his
lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the
boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit
him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody
off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that
time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth
bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think
I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day
or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening,
and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple
of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I
didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.
Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous
football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him
really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was,
and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help
him.
Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the
post on him.
Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you.
That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on
Lee at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble
he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think
this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys,
so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this
happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they
were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him
up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say,
began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I
would say.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he
was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was
cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point
on, would you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and
share interests, and what were his interests?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never
even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown--I told
the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but
actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I
did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and
sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool.
Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to
come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.
Mr. JENNER. And did you accept his invitation?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's when we played darts.
Mr. JENNER. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. On Exchange Alley.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange Alley?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you find him adept in playing pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the
fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating
him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that
good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I
don't think he was a great pool player.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to
the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he liked it.
Mr. JENNER. He liked to play pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he seemed to like it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a
picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the
paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a
lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met
her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had
a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now,
maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind
as I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't, really.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink occasionally?
Mr. VOEBEL. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a
drinker.
Mr. JENNER. How about Lee, was he a drinker?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen
or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot
of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for
drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I
think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.
There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and
that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke,
which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so
he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the
others.
Mr. JENNER. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what
you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time
you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not.
That's my problem.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a
man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14
or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you
were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was.
People change, of course.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee.
I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee
Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him,
but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school
together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think
in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had
the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that
I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would
have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the
Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't
know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost
contact with Lee years ago.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least,
that was my impression of them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you
say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at
Beauregard School while you were attending there?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be
troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at
that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a
fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to
fight at that school.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of
characters that were going to that school at that time.
Mr. JENNER. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that
in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or
inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just
the opposite of that; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight
a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but
if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he
ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going
to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I
might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been,
now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if
you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of
his way to avoid it.
Mr. JENNER. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't
want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was
a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to
speak?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a coeducational school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. High school or junior high?
Mr. VOEBEL. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a
grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when
it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters.
As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now,
but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very
often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang
wars and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. You still live close to the school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near
there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics,
pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long
time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it
was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics
people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there
for about a year, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High
School to then enroll in Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's normally right.
Mr. JENNER. That's the regular progression?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him
after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during
that summer.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade,
or what?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. Let's see--no; I think we were in the
same grade, I think we were.
Mr. JENNER. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school?
Mr. VOEBEL. I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Any reason?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system.
Mr. JENNER. That's why you went over there?
Mr. VOEBEL. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a service man?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what branch?
Mr. VOEBEL. Army.
Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we
had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and
stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember
participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't
remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym
periods were different.
I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so
there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a
lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think Lee did?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule
accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone
comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or
clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just
like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody
new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the
community before they accepted him.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that
compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when
you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something,
you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.
Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh,
maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue,
I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time
a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face
something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he
joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was
the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and
adolescent things.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force,
whatever it was; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; he met it head on.
Mr. JENNER. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid
it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I
think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They
thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used
to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always
be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they
would hang around in bunches.
In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school
where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked,
so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and
finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after
school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.
Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of
people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk
myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was
inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't
fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over
to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using
all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle
ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just
had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't attack you any more?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was
normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, except that he didn't make friends.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he was not inclined to make friends.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't know why he was so disinclined?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends.
It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally.
He was just living in his own world, let's say.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have some measure of common interest that you
told me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you
have in mind?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns.
Mr. JENNER. And these were regular weapons, not toys?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a
collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few
foreign military weapons.
Mr. JENNER. Was that World War I?
Mr. VOEBEL. World War II.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, my uncle.
Mr. JENNER. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around
the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and
I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old,
you see.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt
about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same
reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like
anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always
liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often
thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had
this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones
they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any
weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he
wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting
them or anything.
I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and
cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to
want something just to have it, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't interest him in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music,
and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things,
and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't
seem to run that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was he interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I never had seen him drive at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the subject with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or
couldn't drive an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was
interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went
fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They
were no bigger than that.
Mr. JENNER. Almost minnows?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right, and I think he liked to fish.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about fishing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed
fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although
I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went
fishing that day.
Mr. JENNER. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances?
Mr. VOEBEL. Financial circumstances?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his
finances.
Mr. VOEBEL. Poor.
Mr. JENNER. Poor?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That made no difference to you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter
whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are
very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me.
It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't
fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some
class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an
interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less
common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested
in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like
that, because I don't have the time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you get out of the service?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two years ago. I just served 6 months.
Mr. JENNER. That's a sort of special program?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves.
Mr. JENNER. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army
Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say
you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the
apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot
pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or
three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late
in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a
couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at
all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons
and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them
out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever own a weapon?
Mr. VOEBEL. A real one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something
there that you want to tell me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45.
Mr. JENNER. A plastic model?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now
about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed
with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about
stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother
me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and
everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, we were over at Easton.
Mr. JENNER. Easton High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were
putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high
school.
Mr. JENNER. Was that right at the time you were graduating from
Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from
Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard
altogether?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Or was that at Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for
about a year?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been
over there, but I don't remember that at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go on with your story.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we
were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the
plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed
a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his
plan was to steal it.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't one of these collector's items?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell
you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was
just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an
automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention
to it.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the pistol in the window?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following
week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and
a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to
how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the Rampart Street store?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this
plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the
glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he
was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told
me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the
window and everything, and I didn't know what to tell him, so he said,
"Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind
it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we
walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the
window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was.
He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him.
I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice
this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar
alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk
him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think
that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that
tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed
me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the
inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try
it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he
finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal
Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window,
such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway,
he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was
the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, it was just a real cheap one.
Mr. JENNER. This was a plate glass window, though, you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass
window with a glass cutter?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the
cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really
wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was
really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got
in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it
seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point
where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through
with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look
back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if
he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you
know, but I am just speculating on that, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean the politics in the pure sense.
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to
be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things
about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back
when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney.
Mr. JENNER. You and he never discussed anything like that, then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at
that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like
political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot
of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even
know that. I know we never discussed anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the
service, I believe; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have
two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing.
Mr. JENNER. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or
playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were
they?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, I never saw them. I never met them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee
and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you
usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my
opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as
Lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and I think
she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like
Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time.
I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was
something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her
children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I
guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to
him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about
anything.
Mr. JENNER. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean,
did he cut her off short in any way?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at
that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other
kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are
normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to
a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his
mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you
know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a
mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; never. He was no mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often
indulgent toward him?
Mr. VOEBEL. In one way; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In which way was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she
would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even
if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course,
if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for
him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything
like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe
he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but
that's just the way he was.
Mr. JENNER. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as
to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his
father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal
in life. What was his attitude about that, if any?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his
father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his
father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's
unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt
bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked
about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard
together.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever come over to your house?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for
sure, but I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Were you active in sports?
Mr. VOEBEL. Just in intramurals.
Mr. JENNER. Did he play any intramurals?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so
I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think
everybody had to play some intramural sports.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling
that there were things that should have been accorded him by way
of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been
deprived because his father had predeceased him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Did he have a feeling of that at that time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those
thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than
it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly
good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. We would play darts and
play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you
that impression?
Mr. VOEBEL. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I
am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination
occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we
were in Beauregard together.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the
impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as
compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this
man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I
think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course,
at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind
trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out
looking for something like that unless you have a reason.
Mr. JENNER. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that
Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around
and associating with Lee Oswald?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you put any credence in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one
that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one
to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be
reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal
things that kids read.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a voracious reader in those days?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the
time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great
reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I
guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me,
even music when I first started with it.
Mr. JENNER. Are you still interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I still play music.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with
Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity
of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?
Mr. VOEBEL. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand
then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to
mix with people; that's all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that
has remained in your mind all these years?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted
to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you
see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that
maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people.
Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't
tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I
knew how he didn't like to mix with people.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this
horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of
Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and
behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since
his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him;
is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects,
and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of
a gang at school, or anything like that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. While you were going to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look
for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few
friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that
seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more
or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his
studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that
right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he was just an average student.
Mr. JENNER. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do
you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his
attendance was pretty good.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was not much on the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with
Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about his brothers?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but
there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his
brothers--I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I
have no impression of that whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received
his just dues in the world up to that point?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't
really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression.
That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have such an impression at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I
said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing
because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression
at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I
think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter
toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my
opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were
going to Beauregard, to the same school.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your
opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young,
and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that statement?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it?
Mr. VOEBEL. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think you had those impressions then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later.
Mr. JENNER. What was that embitterment directed toward?
Mr. VOEBEL. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that at that time, did you?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do,
or made to do something.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think they have two.
Mr. JENNER. Two?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there two here at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking
about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he
attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently
bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember,
in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.
Mr. JENNER. He just attended two meetings of the CAP?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two or three meetings, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And that's all he attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when
Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that
I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but
he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join
the unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to
be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it
was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he
was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't
attend any more meetings.
Mr. JENNER. You thought that was strange?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my
opinion now, I guess--not then, but I think now maybe he liked the
uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those
classes that we had.
Mr. JENNER. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that
Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just
didn't show up any more.
Mr. JENNER. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require
some study?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of
his earlier life?
Mr. VOEBEL. His "history"?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; his background--anything about his family before he
ever met you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but
he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or
anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here
from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I
don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he
wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at
that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all
this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things
like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and
things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to
anyone in your presence, that you recall?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times,
just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he
did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would
impress me so that I would remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a
week, or how often?
Mr. VOEBEL. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have
actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe
attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a
sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the
whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the
weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but
maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Was this CAP unit coeducational?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too,
isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out
there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.
Mr. JENNER. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They
might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest
me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interest Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't
show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind?
Mr. VOEBEL. None whatever.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in
that respect?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't
pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else.
I think that was probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that you can think of from your
acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you
could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what
I have asked you?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of
reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege
and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on
to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be
transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know
when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in
that regard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told
you what I know about it.
Mr. JENNER. You prefer to waive that then?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF
The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week----
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Advising you that I would be in touch with you----
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I
understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive
order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well
as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did receive the letter, et cetera?
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge
that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New
Orleans during the period 1954-55. Before we get into the details of
that, however, would you state your full name for the record.
Mr. WULF. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. WULF. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf?
Mr. WULF. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. WULF. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New
Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are you majoring in?
Mr. WULF. History.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been attending LSU?
Mr. WULF. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You obtained your primary education and secondary
education here in New Orleans?
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you obtain that education, what schools?
Mr. WULF. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh
grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De
La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu
High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then from there you went to LSU?
Mr. WULF. LSU, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military
service?
Mr. WULF. No. I am exempted at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has received information to the effect
that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy
Association----
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or
what was it at that time?
Mr. WULF. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school
students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in
astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the group still active?
Mr. WULF. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls
of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact
that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in
college.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans
Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were
contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WULF. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed
this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at
this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is Palmer McBride?
Mr. WULF. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted
me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was--I had
originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and
all, probably it was September or August in 1955.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you?
Mr. WULF. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had
talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they
were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe
he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group
and I told him--he asked me could he come over to the house one time,
and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed
between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit.
Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow that called you and then came over to your
house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to
associate Oswald with this particular person.
Mr. LIEBELER. This association was made by you at some time subsequent
to the assassination. Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night
following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call
from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been
employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental
Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald----
Mr. WULF. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New
Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture,
and then I subsequently found out--I confirmed it when I asked the FBI
agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and
he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same
person.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee
Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you
saw in the paper?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then as a result of that association, you asked the
FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's?
Mr. WULF. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the
association, other than--I must stipulate at this time that when I had
met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would
like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI
interviewed you?
Mr. WULF. I have no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not contact the FBI?
Mr. WULF. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it
was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos
on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as
everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not
think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even
surprised that I got your letter from the Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way
as to how they had been led to you?
Mr. WULF. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that
knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride,
so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the
subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they
got this particular knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you
remember?
Mr. WULF. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records
from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954--that is a rough
date--probably towards the end, probably--let's see--I am trying to
associate it with the Astronomy Club dates--towards the end of the
school year 1954-55, so that would probably be in--oh, March and April,
around that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1955?
Mr. WULF. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I
could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but----
Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to
join the Astronomy Association----
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride
and become a friend of his after that?
Mr. WULF. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact
with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the
city I still see him.
Mr. LIEBELER. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental
Laboratory? Is that right?
Mr. WULF. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I
don't know the exact title of his position.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Only at the time that--two occasions or possibly three--I
think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of
Oswald's beliefs, and I told--McBride had always told me that he
wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket
engineering and rocketry--like we all were nuts on rocketry at the
time--and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with
him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want
to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a
security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature."
Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that
correct?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What led you to make that statement to McBride?
Mr. WULF. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting
with Oswald when we got into a discussion--I being a history major
and always been interested in history, some way or another we got
around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was
reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding
the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in
communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et
cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for
a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a
little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that
would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after
this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back
and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard
what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed,
boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put
him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with
Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and
boisterous?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous
person?
Mr. WULF. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over
communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue
with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right
before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to
Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous
boy and very determined in his way about communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or
strongheaded about other things?
Mr. WULF. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought
he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in
other words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then there never was any question of physical----
Mr. WULF. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Contact over this thing?
Mr. WULF. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a strongly presented argument?
Mr. WULF. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started
hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through
Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him
violently, and he asked him to leave the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your father a native of Germany?
Mr. WULF. Hamburg.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had been involved in some political activities
with or opposed to the Communists?
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany
following the war, 1919-20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic
Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and
he just--well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't
like Communists.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything about the details of your first
meeting with Lee Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that
he asked--we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the
conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck
me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the
time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered
in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we
were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data
we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be
hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him
from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of
the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3
o'clock in the morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was at a meeting of the association?
Mr. WULF. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house.
It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something
like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and
just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is
somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at
that time?
Mr. WULF. Not at that time; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you remember anything else about the second
meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?
Mr. WULF. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed
communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made
Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that
way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little
about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and I
can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist,
he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist
Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to
find a Communist organization?
Mr. WULF. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name
Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking
for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he
couldn't----
Mr. LIEBELER. Couldn't find one?
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as
this with McBride?
Mr. WULF. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride
and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when
we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent
leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop
associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except
for, you know, working hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed
communism with him?
Mr. WULF. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were
on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social
association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys
struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had
quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and
I think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they
were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and
McBride? Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. On this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for
one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that
they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were
that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride--he
wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more
money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and
not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride
associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after
this second visit that--we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald
specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable
on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy
Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite
conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I
was quite conscious of security matters and all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest
in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?
Mr. WULF. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was
strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any
belief in communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two
pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and
453-B."
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in
those pictures?
Mr. WULF. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo
453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on
"Pizzo 453-A."
Mr. LIEBELER. You recognize that as Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I
subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can
associate.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these
pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of----
Mr. WULF. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints--I can tell by the grain--and
they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are
the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what
you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do
not associate the other man marked----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your
observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having
seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?
Mr. WULF. No; I base that picture on--when I first saw those films
originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling
that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it
was many years ago, it was--oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was
younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but
he seems to me to be the same person.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the
logical steps that----
Mr. WULF. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that logical association is the association that we
have already described throughout this record?
Mr. WULF. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New
Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know
for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that
year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his
mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him.
McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had
asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his
mother?
Mr. WULF. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like
this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is
hearsay, of course, through McBride--that his mother didn't associate
with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as
such.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in
1955-56?
Mr. WULF. Right, 1955.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the
assassination?
Mr. WULF. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once,
and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram
requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no
answer, and we were wondering where he is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If
you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like
to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would
appreciate it if you would add it.
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. The only thing I can--I don't know how
many people have told you of this period of his life--I amplify that
at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently
for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young
at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for
communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing
that did hit me, he seemed--I told this to McBride at the time--he
seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I
don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may
have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to
associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and
at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification,
and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to
become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time,
and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to
Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the
time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to
thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent
that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.
Mr. WULF. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH
The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I
would be in touch with you concerning your testimony.
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the
Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred,
as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr.
Rankin's letter and those documents?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to
the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged
assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at
some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into
the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name
for the record, if you will.
Mrs. SMITH. Bennierita Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married? Is that correct?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your name before you were married?
Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio. My maiden name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SMITH. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born?
Mrs. SMITH. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us your educational background,
please.
Mrs. SMITH. Starting from kindergarten?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue
in Lakeview. Then I went--it was either the third or fourth grade I
transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview
School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and
that is all the schooling I have had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate?
Mrs. SMITH. 1958.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you attended
Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended
Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and
well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always
getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well
outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in
fights?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what you know about that?
Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was
this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight
with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit
Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that
boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so
well?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. That is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Mrs. SMITH. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of
patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he
didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the
only one I remember. And they had this little boy--I think it was Bobby
Newman--he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much
about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was?
Mrs. SMITH. Bobby Newman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Bobby Newman?
Mrs. SMITH. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to
me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far
as--I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with
other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or
less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung
around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Mr. Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I
knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well,
I knew his sisters.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Voebel's sister?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris--and they call
the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one
you described in which Oswald had his lip cut?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and
knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight
or that the other guy started the fight?
Mrs. SMITH. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I
know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the
fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school
but he didn't go there, you know, he just----
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same
age as the rest of the students?
Mrs. SMITH. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to
Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me,
and I am almost sure he was older than her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which
Oswald was involved?
Mrs. SMITH. That is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the television program that was played over
WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to
my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he
called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I
thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been
such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they
were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he
wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't
anything I knew about him.
Mr. LIEBELER. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them.
And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and
pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my
girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school
with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so
happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I
told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in the television program?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; the three of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three of you would be yourself--and what were the names
of the other two girls?
Mrs. SMITH. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of
yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right?
Mrs. SMITH. Larry and Bob?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. No; Larry--I met Larry--gee, I don't even remember--I
guess maybe at a school dance or something--and I went out with him,
and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to
see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get
some--well, more or less a story together.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the other boy?
Mrs. SMITH. Bob Jones?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Well, he broadcasts the news.
Mr. LIEBELER. He works for the television station?
Mrs. SMITH. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we
just answered him, but I didn't know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You
mentioned this fight to him?
Mrs. SMITH. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we
knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as--like we
would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in
class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he lived?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details
about Lee Oswald than you did?
Mrs. SMITH. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know,
that he always wore these sweater vests--they are more or less in style
now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school--it was just
like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe
he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl
friend told him about that, and--I am trying to remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was
that something that one of your girl friends remembered?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him
dressing that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this
first?
Mrs. SMITH. I think it was Peggy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Peggy?
Mrs. SMITH. Peggy Zimmerman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else that the three of you were able
to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by
the television people or after that?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was
this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald
being involved in?
Mrs. SMITH. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was
in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that?
Mrs. SMITH. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother
who told her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the
time he went to Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. Not that I know of, not in school.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any
close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the
possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right?
Mrs. SMITH. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a
sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed?
Mrs. SMITH. He wore levis, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that different from what the other students wore?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants
or khakis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of
the way he dressed or the way he----
Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed
around by the other boys for any reason?
Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about
Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is
there, or----
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall
in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just
show his back and--but there isn't anything other than that fight. I
think that is what made me remember him the most.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar
or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way
in which he walked?
Mrs. SMITH. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they
just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight
with them or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know how this fight----
Mrs. SMITH. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I
say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see,
they were fighting, but I really----
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't seen him--gee, I guess since I graduated
from Beauregard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located?
Mrs. SMITH. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near
the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street
from St. Anthony's Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it
out farther?
Mrs. SMITH. No; well, it is further down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal
Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here
[indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town.
Mr. LIEBELER. Quite a way from here?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride
practically to the end of the line.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you got to Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end
of the streetcar line.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be several miles from here, would it not?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I guess--let's see--it must be about the 4000 or
6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the 6000 block?
Mrs. SMITH. I think so. I am not sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is Beauregard we are talking about?
Mrs. SMITH. Beauregard; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me the area the people that went to
Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area
surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans,
or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school?
Mrs. SMITH. Each high school has its own district, so that the people
that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly,
you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school
board.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district
was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has it changed much since then?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or
middle-class neighborhood?
Mrs. SMITH. Middle-class neighborhood.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the
time that he went to Beauregard, do you?
Mrs. SMITH. No; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record)
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior
High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a
particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than
Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. That draws from a district too.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that district included the district encompassed by
Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; and also, well, around Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard
Junior High School District, does it not?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically
went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but
it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened,
it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Lee Oswald attended Warren Easton High
School?
Mrs. SMITH. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't,
but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking
outside of school.
Mr. LIEBELER. But nothing else?
Mrs. SMITH. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton
other than that, I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that
stands out in your mind?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton?
Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating
from Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it was right after we had started at Warren Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself did graduate from Warren Easton, did you not?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is
that right?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of
time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part?
Mrs. SMITH. No; just--I may have just seen him once or twice at the
beginning of the school year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the
same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social
background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. I think so, but there were a few kids--well, boys--that
were----
Mr. LIEBELER. Of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were people from a different class or different
group of society?
Mrs. SMITH. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I
don't know how true it is, but that is what they say.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or
heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I never have.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I
haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would
set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we
haven't covered?
Mrs. SMITH. There isn't anything else I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to
thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that
you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very
much.
TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN
The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7-8, 1964,
at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that
I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony,
and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and
the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules
of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of
witnesses. Did you receive the letter?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were
they not?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things the Commission is interested in is
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the
extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in
evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was
alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge
that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the
record.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as
I understand. Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police
Department?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Six years.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how old are you now?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Twenty-six.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a
junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; Beauregard Junior High.
Mr. LIEBELER. Beauregard Junior High?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. On Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard
Junior High School?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to Beauregard?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. One year.
Mr. LIEBELER. And where did you go prior to that time?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. St. Dominic's.
Mr. LIEBELER. St. Dominic's?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Elementary school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In Lakeview in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Beauregard, where did you go?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans also?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend college at any place?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a
police department scholarship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald
when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him,
what contacts you had with him, just the whole story.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while
I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet
members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at
the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was
Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel--I am not sure how that name is
spelled--and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was
I noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a marching team?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself
always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching,
that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders
back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really
fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could--well, he even
gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he
ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the
three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out
there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at
school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the
airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or
two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then
joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a
closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to
the squadron he had joined.
Mr. LIEBELER. At Moisant Field?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. At Moisant Airport.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald--I didn't know this until I
read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short
time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived
either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New
Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from
French Street around 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the
time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his
friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of
our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning,
but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of
the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of--I was an
athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a
thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What particular sport were you involved in?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do
with sports activities?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close
acquaintances at that time, or do you know?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and
went out to Moisant and evidently--or I believe he talked Oswald into
coming out there with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not
Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had
uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport
and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot
of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether
they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more
cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can
check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to
Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol
program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the
NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to
summer camp we would fire on the range.
Mr. LIEBELER. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer
camp?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National
Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of
any kind in connection with CAP activities?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any
rifle practice in connection with the CAP?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David
Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans
Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that
correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there
was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am
not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He
could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when
he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with
the Moisant squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when
Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when
he went to Moisant Airport.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated
with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I am not sure of any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no
direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would lead you to
believe that there was a relationship between these two men?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went
through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get
some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me
up at home, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were these files located?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. These files are in the possession of one Robert
Boylston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all
were, at New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the records come to be in his possession?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently
dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just
turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old
records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course,
I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and
what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much.
Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything in these files that related to
Ferrie or Oswald?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing
in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all
that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the
Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and
we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in
a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron
in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald.
I don't know if he was involved, he could have been.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you found nothing in the files?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Nothing concrete.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald
and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that there has been
publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible
relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am
sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this
Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I
don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under
investigation of whatever it was, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you go ahead.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans
Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New
Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to
check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been
flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald
to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we
found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had
flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to
see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there,
and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an
airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice
activities here in New Orleans?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the
whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution,
homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we
handle.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection
with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We
have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Now see if you can recall or think back to your
experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you
can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want
to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and
his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this
ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this
correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would
like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else.
I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if
I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure,
but there is nothing else I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if
there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of
the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER
The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to
take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that
we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the
Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just
referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the
taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr.
Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my
place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up
the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going
through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or
some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result,
after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little
curious and looked, and I found that there was one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days'
notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3
days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you
are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.
Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid
there is very little I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but
one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much
background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the
hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in
fact he did assassinate the President.
Mrs. SAWYER. I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the
time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place
where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked,
more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I
felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going
to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so,
whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment?
Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place
where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street,
and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you
remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage
there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some
little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an
engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in
and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have
someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it,
way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was
quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around,
and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back
and forth ever since.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime?
Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without
looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My
husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3
years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is
kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it
was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son,
were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and
they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and
I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all
about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI
sometime back in November?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and
that is when I realized that they were the same people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent
during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my
mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my
husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was
out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway
or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps.
About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is
about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say
"little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely
remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly
hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once
in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I
was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and
he seemed quite polite.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old?
Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a
little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as
I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he
actually is or was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange
Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called
Exchange Alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was
working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been
trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I
believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember
which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was
buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she
might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in.
In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her
for anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs.
Oswald and this boy? Is that right?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was?
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or
same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room,
combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a
small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and
I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building
going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close
to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that
lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home
before his mother and he was very quiet.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home
before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I
say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the
door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and
undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had
been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very
low voiced and----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any
scolding?
Mrs. SAWYER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the
things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days,
especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very
much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out
at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something
like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any
conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my
own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with
other people, and I think neighbors especially.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or
anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come
and go?
Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock
in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes
I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock
or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working?
Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary.
Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too?
Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that
that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds
left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were
going or anything?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about
where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me
that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and
shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I
came back, well, they were gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or
particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him
to distinguish him from other boys his age?
Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of,
and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke
to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very
average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked
and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would.
About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was
rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during
that time?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that
she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them?
Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If
you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that
you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you
can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered----
Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that
apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved
into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it
was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have
been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee
to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first
contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly?
Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person,
but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well
spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything
like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this
little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I
did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that
came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice
would be involved in anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever
hear him talking about politics to anybody?
Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than
just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or
something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him
at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14
years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would
have been quite----
Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious?
Mrs. SAWYER. True.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think
of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming
over.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome.
Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself
personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the
cooperation that you have given us.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is
so vague and such a little bit.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX
The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband's name is Edward?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general
counsel of the Commission, did you not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution
137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I have the letter with me.
Mr. JENNER. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the
United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its
powers and duties?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
this one?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I therefore take it you understand from
those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed
to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of
November 1963?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of
the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see
if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in
its investigation.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact
with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others,
information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the
Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because
these are always a little inconvenient, of course.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline
Street, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Since 1932--no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15,
1942.
Mr. JENNER. 1942, rather than 1932?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. You were born here and reared here?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I was born in Louisiana, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. My husband too.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a family?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I do.
Mr. JENNER. How many children?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I have five children.
Mr. JENNER. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11.
Mr. JENNER. Two 16's?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you
know?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with her?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that
house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a double house.
Mr. JENNER. A double house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that up and down, or side by side?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Two sides.
Mr. JENNER. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who occupies the other house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. On the other side?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a Mr. Russo.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Russo?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I
moved in.
Mr. JENNER. When you moved in?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; they were there already.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought
about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some
experiences with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see
me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roach?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did she live?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their
babysitter.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; for the baby.
Mr. JENNER. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she live in that neighborhood?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street.
Mr. JENNER. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block
from the Port of Embarkation.
Mr. JENNER. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. She actually moved into the home?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and
I moved in.
Mr. JENNER. Shortly before that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was
through her that I knew the house was going to be empty.
Mr. JENNER. Through Mrs. Roach?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had been acquainted with her for some time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Roach?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little
bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June
or the latter part of May 1942.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with
respect to Lee's conduct?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Who, Mrs. Roach?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was
babysitting?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you
know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was
bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more.
Mr. JENNER. Lee then would have been about 2-1/2 years old, is that
right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A little more than that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that
conversation with you.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She
said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the
chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a
gun or not, or what a gun was, would he?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy
gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time
with him.
Mr. JENNER. She thought he exhibited fits of temper?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's
what she said.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the other two boys.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the
other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had
other boys.
Mr. JENNER. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the
Secret Service?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; he came out three times to see me.
Mr. JENNER. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in
the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors
sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever
moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too
quickly, I mean.
Mr. JENNER. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was
her reputation for truth and veracity, for example?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to
me, I mean, the neighbors.
Mr. JENNER. You never heard anything bad about her?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother
to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I
have never heard anything spoken about her.
Mr. JENNER. When her son Lee was 2-1/2 years old, was she working at
that time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I think she was.
Mr. JENNER. Is that why she had to have a babysitter.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the
lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--Mrs. Roach. She's
deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there
when I moved in.
Mr. JENNER. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012
Bartholomew?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I
live.
Mr. JENNER. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4
blocks?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010
Bartholomew?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she
left there.
Mr. JENNER. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. The one where I was living?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. They were rented, but now I own my home.
Mr. JENNER. But they were being rented at that time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The former landlady, is she alive?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; she's not.
Mrs. JENNER. She's dead?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she's dead.
Mr. JENNER. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard
of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me--until he
got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I
didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had--I
don't know if it's important or not----
Mr. JENNER. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't.
We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts
and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs.
Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and
then they never came back for the money, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised
all my children with it.
Mr. JENNER. Is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend
to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't
concerning them at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court
reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your
deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as
to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you
wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to
waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter
will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to
Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this
investigation.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the
truth, and that's all I can do.
Mr. JENNER. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity
of reading and signing the deposition?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here
voluntarily and giving us your statement.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN
The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after
first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; that's Milfred.
Mr. JENNER. Milfred?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name.
Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Viola.
Mr. JENNER. Is that V-i-o-l-a?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that
correct?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The general counsel of the Warren Commission?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't
there?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing
the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the
Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and
fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules
and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and
have testimony before the Commission; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that
the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts
and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff,
in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are
deposing various people around the country whose lives came into
contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or
possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you
have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs.
Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I can only tell you what I know.
Mr. JENNER. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are
you a native of this part of the country?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. You were born here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was your husband likewise born here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what is his business or occupation?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the
building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.
Mr. JENNER. He retired last year?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; since March last year.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite
Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010
Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years
ago that they lived there.
Mr. JENNER. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see--I moved there in 1941; that's been 23
years ago that I moved there.
Mr. JENNER. Was she already living there when you moved there?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have
been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the
houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did,
because she was in there first.
Mr. JENNER. Were these relatively new houses?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; they were old places.
Mr. JENNER. They had been lived in before?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that
across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side
of the street?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Right next door. There were three single homes on two
lots, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Three single-family dwellings on two lots?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; on two city lots.
Mr. JENNER. Are they identical houses?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed
theirs up different, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Describe those houses for me.
Mrs. PETERMAN. What do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and
so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and
how large.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just
straight houses.
Mr. JENNER. Four rooms and a bath?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Of what construction; wood?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Wood; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I had four children.
Mr. JENNER. What were their ages around that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. When she moved there and we moved there; right around
that time, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12;
my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.
Mr. JENNER. Your eldest child was a boy or girl?
Mrs. PETERMAN. A girl.
Mr. JENNER. And her present name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that--Herrmann?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n.
Mr. JENNER. What's her first name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Marian is her first name.
Mr. JENNER. Does she still live in New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, she lives down in Chalmette.
Mr. JENNER. Is that near here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a city?
Mrs. PETERMAN. What, Chalmette?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St.
Bernard.
Mr. JENNER. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She's now what; 45?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she
will be 46.
Mr. JENNER. Was she living at home at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a boy or girl?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Boy.
Mr. JENNER. His name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile.
Mr. JENNER. Where does he live now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court.
Mr. JENNER. St. Claude Court?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was her name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Myra; another girl.
Mr. JENNER. Myra?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Myra is now married; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What's her married name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Davis.
Mr. JENNER. What's the name of her husband?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Eddie.
Mr. JENNER. Edward?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it.
Mr. JENNER. Does he work here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at Public Service.
Mr. JENNER. Where do they live?
Mrs. PETERMAN. They live on Cedar Avenue--713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie.
Mr. JENNER. Metairie?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that part of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New
Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.
Mr. JENNER. All right; and then your youngest?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Let me explain about her.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mrs. PETERMAN. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's
child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both
died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.
Mr. JENNER. What was that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Her name was--when she was single, Welbrock, but she
married, and now it's Kushler.
Mr. JENNER. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at that time, yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was her first name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Cecelia.
Mr. JENNER. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they reside where?
Mrs. PETERMAN. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly.
Mr. JENNER. Rabbit Street in Gentilly?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a part of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it's the part out by the lake.
Mr. JENNER. Which lake?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr. JENNER. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's
34 right now.
Mr. JENNER. He's 34 now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Myra will be how old?
Mrs. PETERMAN. She made 32 in February.
Mr. JENNER. And Cecelia?
Mr. PETERMAN. She will be 30 this month--I mean, in May--May 15.
Mr. JENNER. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending
elementary school, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did they all attend the same school?
Mrs. PETERMAN. They went to Washington, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Washington Elementary School?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. St. Claude and Alvar.
Mr. JENNER. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary
school and high school at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Who is that?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from
high school?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to
high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.
Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately
when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to
herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years,
maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me.
I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones
herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about
all.
Mr. JENNER. But you did become acquainted with her?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes; I would say that.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had three children?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because
she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that
herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was
dead, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, P-I-C-K.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boy was----
Mrs. PETERMAN. Robert.
Mr. JENNER. And the third?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was the third one?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about
within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra
and Cecelia; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age.
Mr. JENNER. Around Cecelia's age?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she
moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard
to recall all of that, to be exact.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. We want you to just give us the
information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I
really don't know to be exact on that.
Mr. JENNER. And John?
Mrs. PETERMAN. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going
to school.
Mr. JENNER. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is
that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that
would be Robert?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington
Elementary at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I
am not positive.
Mr. JENNER. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there,
Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved
before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3
years.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 years maybe?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know.
Mr. JENNER. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, she was.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard that as strange, did you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much
with the neighbors.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that
Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced
her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was
dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she
moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead,
living, or what. She never mentioned him.
Mr. JENNER. When did you say you moved into that house?
Mrs. PETERMAN. In 1941.
Mr. JENNER. You moved there in 1941?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that
time, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how she supported herself?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold
her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I
don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then
later she opened a little dry goods store.
Mr. JENNER. A dry goods store?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I won't say a dry goods store--more like a grocery
store, I guess you would say--just a small place there in the front
room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. In her front room.
Mr. JENNER. The front room of her house?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it was a little grocery store.
Mr. JENNER. Would the local city ordinances permit that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a
short time--not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I
know that was the only money she had coming in at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please;
what kind of person she was.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, like I said--I don't know how to explain it, but
she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob
either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a
person that--I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with
her, and she was a good mother to her children.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to
herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether
she did to the other neighbors, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard her conduct as strange?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of
person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that
neighborhood, I--there are some people living around there right now
that I couldn't tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go
out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way.
Mr. JENNER. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that
right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept
them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her
business at all.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and
Robert?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having
a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do
today.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I mean children back in those days were not like
children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and
they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little
child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I
just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We
didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We
all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe
it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any other children in the
neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of
those boys, do you think?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small.
My older ones might remember them.
Mr. JENNER. That would be Myra and Emile?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; Myra and Emile.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that
might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about,
either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you
about it, or anything you might want to contribute?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell
you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after
she moved away we lost track of them.
Mr. JENNER. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them
and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you
said, the man found you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and
Marguerite took good care of him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with
your husband to talk to us.
Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S.
attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish,
to read over your deposition and to sign it.
You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate
knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your
deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write
it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may
come down and read your deposition and sign it.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about
everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the
ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think you were pretty close.
Mrs. PETERMAN. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday,
or the day before.
Mr. JENNER. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you
would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right?
You don't want to read it over and sign it?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; I waive it.
Mr. JENNER. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs.
Peterman.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS
The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you
here today, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New
Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And you were born here?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no family, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have
brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named
Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with her?
Mrs. EVANS. In about 1930.
Mr. JENNER. About 1930?
Mrs. EVANS. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I guess that's about right.
Mr. JENNER. She is either 56 or 57 right now.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her
between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of cards? Bridge?
Mrs. EVANS. We played bridge, yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with her?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend--hers and mine, and
we used to play bridge together.
Mr. JENNER. Was she married then?
Mrs. EVANS. She was separated from her first husband.
Mr. JENNER. Where did she live then, do you know?
Mrs. EVANS. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment
on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know
much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived
right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on
North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular
time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she
was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was.
Mr. JENNER. What's her sister's name?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Mrs. Murret.
Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance continue for some years?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an
accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a
while, and she remarried--to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of that, did you?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see her from time to time in that interim?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything,
but I might have run into her--I imagine I did, on the street, but I
lost contact with her, sort of, and then--it was either just before
Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so
many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I
think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I
think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think
she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember
all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long
time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though
if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if
she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was
after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would
have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became
friends again, as to what happened.
I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start
seeing a good deal of her again until--let's see; she finally went to
work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that.
She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a
widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband in the meantime had died?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans.
Mr. JENNER. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party.
Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am
Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party
or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number
of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and
canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh,
Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and
went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and
she said, "Yes."
Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact.
Mr. JENNER. When was this, 1959, 1960?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago,
because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact
that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV,
but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance
to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to
it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I
don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and
I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the
paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship,"
and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her."
Mr. JENNER. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was
born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of
him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage,
and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the
child, and he wanted her to destroy the child.
Mr. JENNER. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about
Marguerite Oswald, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was
just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his
boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and
went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life
Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived
right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert
in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them
how about him riding them home.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to him?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting
insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie.
Mr. JENNER. At whose house?
Mrs. EVANS. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No,
let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or
divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John
Pic now?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib,
and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her
because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was,
oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those
two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he
started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with
him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2
years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby
right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar
somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from
other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of
it, because we got to be real good friends.
She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very
happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this
terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called
the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man
was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one
on the way.
Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her
home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in
this home--Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and
she bought a home over on--what's the name of that street back off of
St. Claude?
Mr. JENNER. Bartholomew?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home.
Mr. JENNER. The Bethlehem home?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly
with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was
with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her
sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she
had a woman taking care of the little boy.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why did she live there, do you know?
Mrs. EVANS. You mean on Bartholomew Street?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had
lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she
moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute--I might be getting those streets
confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left
her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home
was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in
that home and went to work.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your information that she immediately went to work
rather than try to live for a while without working?
Mrs. EVANS. She might have lived for a month or two, or something,
without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she
had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said----
Mr. JENNER. What couple was that?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't know what couple it was--somebody; she had put an
ad in the paper or something--some young couple. I don't know their
names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair,
that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little
Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts
on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now.
So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and--now,
this is what she told me; she told me that she bought this little
double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room
there.
Mr. JENNER. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, as I recall, she did.
Mr. JENNER. What's a "double"?
Mrs. EVANS. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door
here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes
some places, but we call them doubles.
Mr. JENNER. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that.
Mrs. EVANS. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with
her three children.
Mr. JENNER. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there
myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the
truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think,
still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other
place--that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on
Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was
between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there--the early
1940's, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. At that time she was living where now?
Mrs. EVANS. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was
with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She
would go down on Sundays to see her two boys.
Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain with her sister?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister,
but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I
don't know--I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing
her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday,
something like that, you know, just go around a bit together.
Mr. JENNER. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what?
Mrs. EVANS. He was 3 or 4 years old then.
Mr. JENNER. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't
he?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her
sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she
might have finally put him in there too.
You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age,
generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and
that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I
think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died.
You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his
father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she
always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort
of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his
father, I think, just as any mother would.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to
1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with
your recollection?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on
Alvar?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. I was told it was in that subdivision.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall her selling that house?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with
her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working,
and I didn't play cards then, you see.
She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards
with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only
through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned
what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her
all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it
was about a year before she went to Texas. It's hard to recall those
dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in
there?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.?
Mrs. EVANS. Atlantic Avenue?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John
and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs.
Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Then she moved to Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With her children, of course?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred about that time?
Mrs. EVANS. She married again.
Mr. JENNER. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. That's why. She married a very, very fine man.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what his name was?
Mrs. EVANS. You know it; I will give it to you--Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all
right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a
very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to
post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places.
That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't
drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them
then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she
moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building.
Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her?
Mrs. EVANS. I did.
Mr. JENNER. That was his second marriage, isn't that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for
many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he
did get a divorce and married Margie.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where he was from originally?
Mrs. EVANS. Boston, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. EVANS. They did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit them in Dallas?
Mrs. EVANS. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend
of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with
this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was
living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I
visited her.
Mr. JENNER. Her husband and her two children?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her.
Mr. JENNER. Including Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address
I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that
could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived
downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr. JENNER. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see--yes,
she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr. JENNER. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert,
living at the home?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; they all lived together.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee, too?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to
travel, you say?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was
a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big
company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than
Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot,
and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of
that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and
he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking
Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and
all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they
went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went
to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here,
and she took an apartment with me.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind,
let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say
you visited them once in Texas, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that
is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went
to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the
summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there,
even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the
time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three
be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay
in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but
that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the
time like that.
Mr. JENNER. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had
the boys over at Covington?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the
summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington.
Mr. JENNER. Was this in 1946?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been,
but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years
for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it
happening.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The
pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission
wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion.
Mrs. EVANS. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would
take something to remember all of those details.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the boys during that period?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I
remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little
fellow.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because
naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a
better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two
boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they
were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother
can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the
child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but
in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better
woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to
support her children. She tried to support them herself.
Mr. JENNER. That was her own decision?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take
her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think
that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too
close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much.
Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but
after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and
she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on
these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee
would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage
because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a
spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him
to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe
both of them--I don't remember, but I think they both went into the
Marines----
Mr. JENNER. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older
boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of
course he never did see his father. His father never did care to
see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit
supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to
come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or
Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's----
Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working
at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came
back to New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one
time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and
at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said
she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she
answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened
Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a
Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly.
Mr. JENNER. And you were working at that time also?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant,
and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings
and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at
those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course
she went back to Texas.
I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas
Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be
in Dallas for a show--some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I
went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with
Margie.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was Margie?
Mrs. EVANS. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take
anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She
had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would
work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat
house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her
on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I
said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had
known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She
was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of
a bookworm, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a
loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay
too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I
mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself.
Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't bring boys into the house?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and
he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper,
or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler,
"Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs
talking to me or something, and when he would holler at her, she would
jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life
was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about
13 about that time, I think, along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your
apartments?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when
they lived at my apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't
with Ekdahl any more when she came back here.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would
like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they
returned from New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because
I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean,
he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that
goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think.
I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so
much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when
she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the
full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They
would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I
think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would
say they were really a happy family in those days.
Mr. JENNER. They were a happy family?
Mrs. EVANS. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely
knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that
their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what
they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her
children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at
all. She was very decent, a very fine woman.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't
think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have
been able to find out.
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their
children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was
never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and
made do the best she could.
Mr. JENNER. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with
Margie then?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her while she was in New York?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal
card or something, but I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was
when she came back to New Orleans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was
living in Texas, before she went to New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her
for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing.
For a time she lived--what's the name of that little town?
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean Benbrook?
Mrs. EVANS. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again,
that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living
with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was
right with them all the time.
Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her on all these trips with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. As far as I know, she did, yes.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did she have Lee with her all the time?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute.
If she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she
talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had
lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when her marriage to Ekdahl took place, Mrs.
Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was when she went to Texas, just about at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. Around 1945, would that have been, in maybe 1944?
Mrs. EVANS. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas,
Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure.
Mr. JENNER. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they
struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. She said that he had had a heart attack, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. And he was courting her during this time?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of
see how he was getting along here, is that correct?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down
here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned
about him.
Mr. JENNER. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into
marriage then; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Ekdahl's sister approve of Marguerite?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she
went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look
after him.
Mr. JENNER. Then Margie moved to Texas with Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you say you visited them over there, in Dallas; is that
right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you think you might have heard from her at different
times when she was traveling with her husband?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right--you know, postal cards and such.
Mr. JENNER. And then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that
right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And then you said you heard from her again?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the circumstances of that now, please?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's.
She was looking for an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean?
Mrs. EVANS. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was
a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family.
She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept
house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference
between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But
anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I
could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper
than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have
any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and
her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so
she made out with that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what year that was?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so
I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early
spring, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. In the early spring?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been
in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I
can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie
decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the
fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody
else, and I told her that.
She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the
apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St.
Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked
at the house, and she thought that she would take it.
Mr. JENNER. She had an automobile?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she rode the bus out there.
Mr. JENNER. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She
just had found a cheaper place to move to?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she
liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it.
Mr. JENNER. Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite?
Mrs. EVANS. Just her and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You did see Lee after they returned from New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6
months.
Mr. JENNER. Including Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months?
Mrs. EVANS. In this apartment, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the No. 6 apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27
rooms or more.
Mr. JENNER. It was just one big building; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they
took one of them, you see--one of the smaller apartments. I had had
one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little
apartment.
Mr. JENNER. And that was at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. EVANS. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for
approximately 6 months, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was in 1954, you say?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get to see both of them frequently?
Mrs. EVANS. Practically every day.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived
at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did
Lee Oswald look like?
Mrs. EVANS. What did he look like?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you
then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was more spoiled.
Mr. JENNER. More than before?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he
was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult.
Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not
yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very
trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't
any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New
York; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; after they came here from New York.
Mr. JENNER. With his mother?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New
York and came to New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to
me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not
right from New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went
back to Texas from New York.
Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far
back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I
just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently
was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that
they didn't get along--I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now,
that's my opinion. She never told me why.
Mr. JENNER. That's just your surmise?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee
in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and
considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't
happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't
have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead
her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love
on him, it seemed like.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in
New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. She never said anything to you that would have given you an
indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas,
or vice versa?
Mrs. EVANS. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that
she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then
over to New Orleans--Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had
had in school in New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a
man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted,
evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if
you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but
now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell
you that.
Mr. JENNER. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to
you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York
City?
Mrs. EVANS. None whatever.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had been in New York City, of
course?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But she didn't say anything to you about it?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time Lee was about 15 years old; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. He was, somewhere around there--maybe 13 or 14. I don't
know exactly.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between
the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother,
and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he
was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you
had seen him before that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he
was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this
time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he
was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was
when he was younger.
The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he
demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be
downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the
head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something
to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing
me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running
upstairs to get something for him.
Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he
would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records,
and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure
out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled
teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that
aren't that way.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a
father to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone,
it's a hard row--I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they
are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over
them like a man can.
Mr. JENNER. You mean physically?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; physically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she register him in school here in New Orleans when
they came to live in your apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know who registered him. That I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But he did go to school?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he went to school.
Mr. JENNER. Which school was that?
Mrs. EVANS. That was Beauregard, and I might say that she used her
sister's address so she could get him in that school. It's a good
school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time I believe
she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district.
That's the way I understand it anyway. I think there has been some
confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is
my understanding that that's why she used it. If she hadn't used her
sister's address, he couldn't have gone to Beauregard probably, I
mean, if she had moved to another district. So since she wanted him in
Beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it.
Mr. JENNER. In order to get him in Beauregard, she used her sister's
address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that was a good school. I guess it still is, but she
wanted him in there. Otherwise he would have had to go to another
school.
Mr. JENNER. That's Beauregard Junior High School; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; and, like I said, a good school; a very fine school.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee a good student, according to information you
received in that regard, if you did receive any such information?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I never saw his report cards, but I think he was a
pretty good student. I really couldn't tell you that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice during this period that you had this recent,
close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that
he was inclined to be by himself?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come
home from school, of course, a couple of hours before Margie, and he
would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to
entertain himself very well.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't go out and play with the other children?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Now, they had this change in 1955 from 1454 to 1452 St.
Mary. Was that in the same building?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a different apartment, then?
Mrs. EVANS. I will tell you what happened there. There was this young
couple that wanted that apartment, and I still hear from them. She sold
them her furniture. They were the tenants after her, and she sold them
some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me
she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and
she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and
wanted her apartment back, but I told her that I had already rented her
apartment to this young couple. I said, "Margie, what happened to the
house you were going to get?" and she said, "I looked it over," and she
said, "It's too far from a grocery store. I have no way of getting my
groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient."
I told her, "Well, I've already rented the apartment to this young
couple," and she said, "I want to keep my apartment," and I said, "But,
Margie, I have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them
some furniture," and she said, "Well, they can have the furniture," but
she said, "Just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that I
have got to keep it."
Well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. I told her,
I said, "Margie, I just can't do that." To tell you the truth, the way
Lee was acting up and all--he was very noisy, I didn't particularly
want to do it. I knew, in the first place, that the girl simply
couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she
would be behind in her rent and everything. I think she was already
about a month in arrears on the rent, and I just figured it would be
better if I didn't give her the apartment back, so I told her that I
couldn't do it, because I had already rented it to this couple. I knew
that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a
matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling
all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard
feelings if I let it go on that way, so I decided that it would be
better to let it go the way it was going. It seemed to be the best way
out of it. I thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go
ahead and move now, rather than later, so I told her, I said, "Margie,
if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper,"
and so, they did move next door. Now, I had told her that I was going
to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let
her down easy--you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went
ahead and moved next door for a while.
Mr. JENNER. Was that 1452 St. Mary; this place next door?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; right next door. You see--I think I have skipped
something. I told her that I wanted to get the apartment that she had
been in fixed up, and that's how I talked her into taking the place
next door, but then she started complaining and saying I was charging
her too much rent for this place next door, and I wasn't getting the
apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime Lee had
gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his
mother, and it was getting a little unbearable.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" In what
respects was he more determined?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he
had a loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it
got to be quite disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that
was getting worse all the time; so I thought maybe it would be better
if I didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up
anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and
that's when she went to Exchange Alley.
Mr. JENNER. O.K. That was in April of 1955; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, and I never saw her after that.
Mr. JENNER. You never saw her again?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't see her at Exchange Alley?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. She never came to visit you?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she was angry about the apartment, because I made her
give it up. I mean I wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away.
I don't think she ever got over that.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't come to visit you any more at all?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't get in touch with you at all?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard from or heard about,
Margie or Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. The next thing I heard, they had moved back to Texas. They
had left town.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, her sister, Lillian, I saw her in Holmes or--let's
see, maybe it was at the Fontainbleau, at a card party we were
having--yes; I think that was it; she asked me if I had seen Margie,
and I said, "No; I haven't seen or heard from Margie," and that's when
she told me that she had heard Margie had moved back to Texas. I didn't
know that at all. I had heard from several people that they had seen
Margie downtown. She worked at three or four different places--you
know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once
in a while that I knew, and would say they had seen Margie downtown at
some store or other, but I didn't see her, and then the next thing I
knew she was supposed to be back in Texas, and then I ran into Lillian
again later and she told me--this was at the Fontainbleau. Now, I have
that straight. She told me then about the trouble Lee was in.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you run into Lillian at that time?
Mrs. EVANS. At a benefit card party.
Mr. JENNER. At the Fontainbleau?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what did Lillian tell you about Lee on that occasion?
Mrs. EVANS. She told me that Lee was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the
Oswald family?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, that was when Lee came to town, and they took an
apartment up on Magazine Street. I can't remember that date now, but
Lee got here a day or two before his wife came in.
Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in May of 1963?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't remember the date, but it seems like it was
about the middle of May; maybe about May 16, or somewhere close to that.
Mr. JENNER. Was that when he took the apartment at 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Was that May 16?
Mr. JENNER. No; I think it was a little earlier than that, according to
our information.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, whatever date that was, that was the next time I saw
him. I don't know if it was April or May, or even March; I don't know
what date it was, but I got the apartment for him, and he moved in on
the day he rented it, or the next day, I think.
Mr. JENNER. He moved in on the 10th; would that be about right; the day
after he rented the apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about
right. He moved in the day after, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. On the 9th of May?
Mrs. EVANS. I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May,
and then he moved in on the 10th.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that
apartment, Mrs. Evans.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to
work. He says he recognized him then, but I don't remember it that
way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted
an apartment, and did I have an apartment to rent, and I didn't have
anything in this building, but I told him about another building I was
fixing up, and I told him I might be able to find something for him,
and he told me he had a wife and child over in Texas, and that he was
going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment,
and that he had to find something right now. He said, "I want something
right away."
When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and
I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you,
don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to
see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what
are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought
you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron
Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said,
"but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the
States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back
with him; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up
this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie, do you happen
to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one
little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This
is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little
apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and
she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much; he is just
getting a new job."
Mr. JENNER. What's her name?
Mrs. EVANS. Mrs. Maynard--Vickie Maynard.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know her husband's first name?
Mrs. EVANS. Charles--Charlie Maynard. She only saw him for about 15
minutes; she has no bearing on this.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see.
Mrs. EVANS. So she said, "Myrtle, bring him over, and I'll see you in
about 10 minutes," and I said, "We'll come up and see it," so we got
in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive.
It was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. They
did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for
the baby, but Lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. He
told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with
laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so I said, "Well, come on,
Lee; I don't know anybody that will take children," I said, "but we
will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." So
we rode in and out and all around Baronne and Napoleon and Louisiana
Avenue, and Carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets,
and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode
down Magazine Street, and I said, "You might as well get as close to
your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment."
Mr. JENNER. Had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the
Reily Coffee Co.?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He told me that he had just got a job with the Reily
Coffee Co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. In fact, he
was going to phone her to come over that Saturday, I believe he said.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of job he had with Reily?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he just told me he was going to work for the Reily
Coffee Co., and that he had been staying at Lillian's, and that he was
anxious for his wife to come to New Orleans, and he said a friend was
going to drive her over here; so we were coming down Magazine Street,
and all of a sudden he said, "Oh, there's a sign," and I said, "Good,"
so I pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign,
and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two
apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money.
It was really the most for your money, I'd say, so I said, "Lee," I
said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford
too much," and I said, "This is the best you can do," and I said, "If
I were you, I would take it," and it had a living room that was a
tremendous room.
Mr. JENNER. Larger than this room?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they
had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words,
and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long,
and it had a Page fence.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of fence was that?
Mrs. EVANS. A Page fence--an iron fence, like they use around New
Orleans. You may call them storm fences, but down here they call them
Page fences.
Mr. JENNER. Can you see through them?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street.
I mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. You can see
through them--these sort of diagonals, I guess you would call them.
Now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of
caretakers. She lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the
other side that they rented.
Mr. JENNER. What was her name; the lady who lived next door?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't know. I had her phone number and her name, and
I was going to call her--I did call her once that I remember, but,
nevertheless, I told Lee to give her the money for the gas and light,
in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned
on, because he wanted his wife to come for Saturday. I think this must
have been about Wednesday or Thursday that we were there. He said it
would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife,
who talked Russian, was going to bring her over to New Orleans, and
bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra
room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend
of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home,
and I think I went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and
I think I ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and
some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, I think,
and we talked, and I asked him, I said, "Well, how does it feel to be
back in New Orleans?" and he said, "I have wanted to move back to New
Orleans." He said, "New Orleans is my home," and he said, "I felt like
I just wanted to come back," and he said, "You know, I like the old
high ceilings and the trees and the French Quarter, and everything in
New Orleans," and he said, "You know, in Russia the buildings are brand
new," and we talked a little about Russia--not too much, but he did
tell me how men over in Russia can't rent an apartment if they are not
married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that
you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were
all modern, and they are given to you by the Government, but that you
can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more
about Russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. I
want to hear all about that.
Mrs. EVANS. What he told me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; what did he say about defecting to Russia; anything he
said about that?
Mrs. EVANS. He said he didn't give up his American citizenship; that
that was ridiculous. He told me that he just wanted to see the country
over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen
in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the
housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any
rent, and they had a modern apartment, I think, about on the fourth
floor.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say it was only one room; that there was only one
room to this apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said they had a living room, a bedroom, a dining
room.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what he said?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had a nice place to live over there.
Mr. JENNER. He said that?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to
live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married.
Mr. JENNER. When he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several
rooms--a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't know that, do you, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, no; I don't know that. I have never been to Russia. All
I know is what he told me.
Mr. JENNER. But do you remember him distinctly telling you that his
apartment had all of these rooms?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't remember that. He just said it was a modern
apartment. I remember him saying that. It could have been just one room.
Mr. JENNER. It could have been one room?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I say, I just don't know. He said it was a
modern apartment, but other than that I don't know what else he said, I
mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether I
even asked him any more about it.
Mr. JENNER. But he did use the word "apartment," is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said they had an apartment; I remember that very
plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But he didn't describe the apartment, as far as you can
recall?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I don't remember him doing that.
Mr. JENNER. And he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted
to defect, but that he had failed?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he said he never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had not attempted to defect?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said that he did not want to give up his American
citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. He said, "I am an
American," and he said, "I just went over there, just messing around."
Mr. JENNER. Did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his
opinion of Russia and his reaction to the life he had in Russia?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad.
I guess he was just a young man in love with this Russian girl, but he
did say now that he had decided not to come back to the States until he
could bring her with him. He did say that, so from that conversation
I gathered that he evidently wanted to come back, but he had married
into a Russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could.
Now, this Russian woman, I don't know if she was Russian born or not,
but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught
Russian.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Mrs. Paine? You are talking about Mrs. Paine now?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I didn't even remember her name.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the lady that brought Marina over to New Orleans
from Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; the one that brought Marina and the baby to New
Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we will get into that in a minute, Mrs. Evans; she's
not a Russian woman, by the way. She's a girl from Columbus, Ohio, that
was a Quaker.
Mrs. EVANS. Is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she did speak Russian, and she was the lady friend of
Marina that was going to bring Marina and the baby to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's right; she does speak Russian?
Mrs. EVANS. He told me that his wife didn't speak American.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she didn't speak English?
Mrs. EVANS. Why she didn't?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't
learning the English language since she was living over here?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Lee as of that visit,
Mrs. Evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this
apartment hunting tour? What did you think of Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was, I would say, sort of arrogant. He seemed to
think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he
carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and
keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much--I noticed
all that. I asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother
was fine, and I asked him about his brothers, because his brothers
were both in Texas, and I believe one of them has a child or two, or
something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right.
We were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. You know
how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something--like
we were looking for apartment signs. We were getting out and looking,
and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about
things in general.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you used the expression "arrogant." What did you mean
by that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, you know--I don't know, just the way he talked, and
walked around, I guess. I don't know what gives you that feeling when
you are around somebody like that. He was just different.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think he considered himself superior to anybody
else, or to his fellow Americans, or anything like that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to
anybody else. He acted normal in that respect, I guess, but he talked
about Russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said,
"It's good to be back in the United States," and he said he would have
come back before he did if it had not been for this Russian girl that
he married. He said he had been in Texas 8 months then, and I said,
"Well, what made you come back to New Orleans?" and he said, "Well, you
know, this is my home, and I wanted to see my family."
Mr. JENNER. The Oswald family?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes. He said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his
family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or
unhappy in Russia?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he
would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had
to wait until he could bring her out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the service?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he didn't say anything about that, but I found that
out.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his
objectives were in life now that he was back home?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any luggage with him?
Mrs. EVANS. Not when he came to my house. He said he had been staying
at his aunt's.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about any of his old friends?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. When he was a teenager, did he ever smoke?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to smoke?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or drink?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was temperate with respect to smoking?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig
into things, and he liked music and books.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he liked to read, and he liked to listen to the radio.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of music drew his attention, classics?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, symphony--more of the highbrow stuff, I guess you
would say. I don't really remember because this was so many years ago,
and I didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would
come down to my apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Who would?
Mrs. EVANS. His mother, but I know he liked to listen to his records a
lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. His mother
would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would
sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work,
she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the
way it was with Margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, I
guess you would call it.
Then after they moved to Texas, like I said, I didn't hear from them
for quite awhile, and then Lee came back and came to the house, and
we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then
after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if I
could come up and meet Marina.
Mr. JENNER. How long was this after he had moved into the apartment,
can you remember?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I'd say about a week or so, and anyway I thought it
would be nice to go up and meet Marina, and I told him we would try to
come up, because I would like to meet his wife, and he said, "Just come
anytime." He said she was anxious to meet me. Well, of course, I was
busy, so I didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking
at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen,
and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or
something, and it told about this scuffling over this Cuban thing.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there for a minute now. That's the
first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that Lee Oswald
was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I had no idea that he was mixed up in anything
like this, and I was shocked when I saw his face come on the screen
passing out these handbills in connection with this Cuban thing, so
I told my husband, "Well, they said he went to Russia to give up his
American citizenship; well, maybe he has." I said, "I am certainly not
going up there now," so I didn't go, and I don't know whether this was
before that or after that, but I called up the lady that had rented the
apartment to them--I had asked her for her phone number at the time,
and I told her at the time that I would try to send her some tenants,
so she did give me the number, so I called one time to see how the
Oswalds were getting along. Evidently this must have been after that. I
don't remember. So anyway I called and said----
Mr. JENNER. Would that have been Mrs. Garner?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; that's right; Garner. I told her, I said, "This is
Myrtle Evans, who helped Lee Oswald get that apartment; how are the
Oswalds getting along," and she said, "You know, they are a queer kind
of people," and she said, "I just told him, 'After all, how do you
expect your wife and your child ever to speak the English language when
all you ever talk to them is in Russian'?" She said, "I told him, 'This
girl doesn't know a word of English, and I can't converse with her at
all'," and she said, "I asked him why he didn't talk to her in English
and let her learn some English so that she can talk to the people that
live here in this country, instead of always in Russian."
Mr. JENNER. What did she say he said when she said that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she said he didn't say anything. She said she tried
to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to
help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of English, so she
couldn't understand her anyway. She said that Lee had for some reason
always talked to her in Russian. She said she told him, "She will
never learn to speak English if you keep talking to her in Russian."
Now, that must have been prior to the time that I saw this deal on
television, and then the next thing I knew about Lee, it was all over
television, that he had killed the President, and the rest of it you
know. I didn't even know he was back in Texas. I thought he was still
living on Magazine Street and working at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't know he was back in Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never did go back when I saw this flash about
the Cuban situation on TV and Lee's picture all over the screen. I said
"If he is Russian, I don't want to get dragged into it. Maybe they will
think I had something to do with it."
Mr. JENNER. So you just stayed away, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right; I didn't want to take a chance in getting
involved in anything like that. However, I will say this, I would have
loved to meet Marina. Maybe you can call it curiosity, or something,
but I did want to meet her. She seems to be such a lovely person. I
couldn't tell you where they lived in Texas. I never heard from them
any more after that. I would have liked to tell his mother how sorry I
felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but I just don't
know how to go about something like that now. I guess it's just one of
those things, but I sure do feel sorry for her.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: In the time that you knew Lee, did he pretty
much get his own way? Would you be able to say as to that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say he did; definitely. She would try to give
him everything he wanted--that she could, I mean, and do everything he
wanted her to do. I've seen that happen many times in the time that
I knew them and especially while they lived at my house. I mean, she
couldn't give him a lot of material things. She just didn't have much,
you know, but she would try to pacify him. That boy was so inclined
to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. I guess no
one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. They called him
a "loner", and I guess that's about the best description you can give
him. He was certainly a quiet type boy.
Mr. JENNER. What did you observe with respect to his relations with
other children? Just how did he regard them?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, to be truthful with you, I never really saw him with
anyone except his mother practically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you had a discussion with Marguerite
with respect to her leaving Lee with a couple?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes. Marguerite told me that she had this couple at
her home looking after Lee. Lee wasn't 3 at that time, you see, and so
he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began
telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home,
and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home
from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he
had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she
put them out that night. Now, who they were or what their names where,
I don't know, but she said that no one would take Lee, and she just
didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why
she got this couple in the first place.
Mr. JENNER. Why wouldn't anybody take Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I mean, she couldn't put him in a home.
Mr. JENNER. Because he was too young?
Mrs. EVANS. Because he was too young, that's right. The older boys
could be put in a home--in fact, of course, they were, but Lee was not
yet 3 years old, and they have to be 3 before a home will take them.
She didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes
into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and
everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back,
so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in
the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try
to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry
she ever did that.
Mr. JENNER. You say Lee denied to you during your discussion with him
that he had ever tried to give up his American citizenship?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just
wanted to see the country, over in Russia, and see how they live and
how the country looks, and so he went into Russia and got a job there
and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and
he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some
way to get her out of the country. Actually he didn't seem to want to
talk too much about it, and I didn't try to pump him too much, but I
was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had
really happened. I do feel that he was sympathetic with the Communist
system of government, I mean, of the Russian system, but now I was only
with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and
his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't
even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and
I was surprised when I heard that.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his brothers and his mother?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he said the boys where in Texas, and that his mother
was fine, and that she was in Texas, and I think Robert, or one of
them, had a couple of children. I think that was Robert that had a
couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like
that, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the
United States, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to
Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward
Russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the United
States, and that the only reason he was in Russia working at all was
because he had married this Russian girl and wanted to get her out of
the country, or he would have been back sooner.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his having served in the Marines,
anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was
in the Marines?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his
aunt; I don't know, but I don't even remember if Lee mentioned that
fact in our discussion that day. I don't really remember that. I do
know that he always wanted to go in the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. He always wanted to go into the Marines?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How do you know that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, because when he was going to Beauregard, he wanted to
be a marine.
Mr. JENNER. He expressed that to you?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he always wanted to be a marine. He often said that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high
school, but he still lived there?
Mrs. EVANS. You mean in my apartment?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. No; because they moved from my house, and I lost contact
with them.
Mr. JENNER. But while they were living in your apartment, did he
actually express a desire to go into the Marines?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was always ambitious to be a marine, as far as I
know.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since
it wound up that they were both in the Marines?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; I think he wanted to be like his brothers; they
were both in the service, you know. I think John was a marine, but I
can't remember what branch of the service Robert was in.
Mr. JENNER. Well, John was in the Coast Guard, I think.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, the Coast Guard, and so Robert must have been in the
marines.
Mr. JENNER. That's right.
Mrs. EVANS. As long as I have known Lee though, he has wanted to be in
the Marines. That's one of the things he said he always wanted to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that
respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. No; but Margie was satisfied that her children were going
into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to
college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that
they would go in the service after they got out of high school.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. EVANS. No; you mean the lady who brought Marina to New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. No; because I never even met his wife. I never went there
at all. He called me, like I said, and told me that his wife had come
to New Orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit
them and meet her, and I said, "Lee, I am going to try to come," and I
said, "You-all come to see us," and he said, "Come just any time." He
said Marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at
any time.
Mr. JENNER. I have no further questions, but I would like to ask you
this general question, Mrs. Evans:
Does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission
that I haven't asked you about, either because I neglected to do so or
because I haven't learned about it? If you can think of anything, I
will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or
occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the Oswalds.
Mrs. EVANS. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say his character, and I'm talking about Lee now,
would you say it was strong or weak, or what? For example, did he give
way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he could get angry with his mother. That was when he
was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he
wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she
would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do.
Of course, I don't know anything about his manhood, because I was only
in his company about 3 or 4 hours then.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual
with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with
him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? That's
what I'm getting at.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type
of person. He was what I would call deep. He wasn't real friendly. To
like him, you would have to know him. I mean, even as a child, you
didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course I
didn't have too much contact with him. Most of my contact with with his
mother.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Evans, I appreciate very much your coming
in and giving me this information, and I know it will be helpful to the
Commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this
matter.
Now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read
your deposition over and to sign it. It is also your privilege to waive
that. In other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you
want to. You can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead
and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to Washington,
but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it,
and you will be notified by the United States Attorney here when to
come in and read and sign it.
As I have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other
than by the Commission when and if the Commission deems it necessary.
What is your pleasure on that now, Mrs. Evans? Do you want to read and
sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I will waive it. I have just told what I know about it,
and that's all I can tell you.
Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the
reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is
that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you again, Mrs. Evans, for appearing here
voluntarily, and giving us this information.
TESTIMONY OF JULIAN EVANS
The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old
Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Julian Evans, husband of Myrtle Evans, is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition,
is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Evans, you are a native-born American, is that correct,
sir?
Mr. EVANS. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?
Mr. EVANS. New York.
Mr. JENNER. New York City?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in this area?
Mr. EVANS. New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. EVANS. Well, about 54 years.
Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Evans?
Mr. EVANS. D. H. Holmes; salesman--major appliances.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived on Prytania, at that address?
Mr. EVANS. Let's see--it's going on 15 years now.
Mr. JENNER. And you are Mrs. Evans' second husband, is that right, sir?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Were you married before?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is
that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; the boy and his mother.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite and Lee?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; and there was another brother--two other brothers.
Mr. JENNER. John Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were
across the lake, around Covington, La.--the three boys and Marguerite,
and Pic--no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was over there with them?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Mr. Ekdahl was from?
Mr. EVANS. From Boston. That was the first time I ever saw any of the
boys.
Mr. JENNER. They were then living over in Covington, and that was
during the summer, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that address was over there?
Mr. EVANS. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a
place over there.
Mr. JENNER. This was in 1946, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's about right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West
24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know the address. We didn't go to the house.
Mr. JENNER. You went to a picnic, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; we went to a picnic over there.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children,
is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older
than she was, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl was a lot older than Marguerite?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Mr. Ekdahl at that time?
Mr. EVANS. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to
know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that,
and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him.
Mr. JENNER. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr.
Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution
137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the
assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson,
appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
in your case; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you
received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate
the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff
of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being
here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have
had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his
lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some
contact with the Oswalds, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a
day on this occasion that you began to tell me about?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. You just visited over there on one occasion?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit at Covington on any other occasions?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years
old, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. I guess; he was pretty small.
Mr. JENNER. And the other two boys were also with her, you say?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; they were all with her over there.
Mr. JENNER. Were they in school at the time, do you know?
Mr. EVANS. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I
believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were
on vacation over there.
Mr. JENNER. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a
school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he
was attending school, is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I
don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an
out-of-town school, I think.
Mr. JENNER. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say
it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were
attending a military school over in Mississippi?
Mr. EVANS. Those two boys; yes.
Mr. JENNER. The two older boys?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I'm pretty sure that that's right.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee was with his mother; he stayed with her?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; with his mother and Mr. Ekdahl--you mean in Covington
now?
Mr. JENNER. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in
Covington, isn't that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and
personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they
were not on vacation--when they were moving from place to place in the
pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city?
Mr. EVANS. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well,
except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that?
Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was quite apparent to you even though this was
vacation time when you saw them over in Covington?
Mr. EVANS. I don't understand that.
Mr. JENNER. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on
this picnic over in Covington that you told us about?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee
wanted his way, and that's what he wanted.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have
heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that yourself?
Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes, I did; definitely I noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite
or Ekdahl?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before
but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on
Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I
know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her
before. I just don't remember now.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a person was she?
Mr. EVANS. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman--well
educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart
from this vacation, traveled a lot?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because of his work?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Living in hotels?
Mr. EVANS. That's right; they lived in hotels and also they took Lee
with them.
Mr. JENNER. They took Lee with them?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; everywhere.
Mr. JENNER. In traveling on his job?
Mr. EVANS. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I
believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other
places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went.
Mr. JENNER. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with
Marguerite, did you not?
Mr. EVANS. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I
did. She knew her a long time before she was even married.
Mr. JENNER. That's right; our information shows that.
Mr. EVANS. She knew her when she lived down on Alvar Street.
Mr. JENNER. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family,
is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the
background of the Oswald family?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; over the years we have discussed it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife
told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know
what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth.
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at
1454 St. Mary?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you
first come to know them.
Mr. EVANS. Well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. From where did she come?
Mr. EVANS. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't
get along, or something.
Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret, is that who you are talking about?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; her sister; she lives downtown.
Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And she is Marguerite's sister?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they
couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and
she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might
rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment
right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment,
or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment,
but not for the same amount of money, or something like that--I don't
know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that,
but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French
Quarter.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where?
Mr. EVANS. Well, it's some little short street down in the French
Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good
neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that.
Mr. JENNER. Would that be Exchange Alley?
Mr. EVANS. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one
time on a week end across the lake with us.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. EVANS. We took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the
lake.
Mr. JENNER. When you say across the lake, which lake is that?
Mr. EVANS. Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr. JENNER. And where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake?
Mr. EVANS. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over
there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they
stock it themselves and they have some nice fish in there, and so
Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the
other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just
fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought
was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank
after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them
and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would
throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just
throw them down on the river--I mean on the bank by the pond and just
let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left
them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch
them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just
left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We
couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate
he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his
general attitude.
Mr. JENNER. How old was he at that time?
Mr. EVANS. He was just a young fellow.
Mr. JENNER. About 13, 14 or 15 years old, would you say?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to
Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that.
Mr. JENNER. He first went to Beauregard Junior High School, is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14,
I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would
answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first.
That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking
for a place to stay.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what
did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean,
did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant?
Mr. EVANS. He was arrogant.
Mr. JENNER. Can you remember some incident that would illustrate that
for us?
Mr. EVANS. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my
wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he
would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?"
Mr. JENNER. He would be demanding, you mean?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right
now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed.
Mr. JENNER. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he
was home, or anything like that?
Mr. EVANS. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when
she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have
to go right now.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the
regular time?
Mr. EVANS. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever
stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I
mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever associate with any of the children in the
neighborhood?
Mr. EVANS. No; he didn't. He didn't associate with anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in
the apartment, or go out, or what?
Mr. EVANS. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived
upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read.
He always had a few books around, paper covered books.
Mr. JENNER. Paperbacks?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; paperbacks. He had a lot of them.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go to the public library and get books?
Mr. EVANS. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of
reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was a voracious reader?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I
noticed by him being around the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered
about, or that you thought unusual or strange?
Mr. EVANS. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times--always
thinking. He was hard to get to.
Mr. JENNER. He was hard to get to?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever feel that you ever got to know Lee Oswald, Mr.
Evans.
Mr. EVANS. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did.
I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was
nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand
him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He
never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of
him.
Mr. JENNER. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might
have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he
wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't
appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with
him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him
to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be
by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any
attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that
way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed
themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at
all with the way he acted.
Mr. JENNER. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but
when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't
be friendly; see if we care"; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was
given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was
that all about? Could you explain that?
Mr. EVANS. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from
upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and
so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that
she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs,
that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very
noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have
him back in that apartment for that reason--because he was actually
disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really
tell when he was home.
Mr. JENNER. You could?
Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft
voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and
it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't
seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all
right.
Mr. JENNER. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady,
and Mrs. Oswald about that time?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that
she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that
at all, and then she moved away.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee was a very impervious fellow?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn
voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He
would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He
had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good.
Mr. JENNER. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over
other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about
or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald?
Mr. EVANS. When he came back there to look for an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been last spring?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. May?
Mr. EVANS. Around May.
Mr. JENNER. May of 1963?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and
I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon,
but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and
she helped him get an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first
met him that day?
Mr. EVANS. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it
was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything.
Mr. JENNER. A fishy handshake, was it?
Mr. EVANS. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's
the way he shook hands.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average
person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he
had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of
a mechanic.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your
house that day?
Mr. EVANS. You mean in connection with this Cuban thing?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; anything about that?
Mr. EVANS. No; that came after that.
Mr. JENNER. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to
your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; she answered the door?
Mr. JENNER. She answered the door?
Mr. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he
could find one, or what?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and
they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your wife recognize him then?
Mr. EVANS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Immediately?
Mr. EVANS. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed
that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was
about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was
the same Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized him right away; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had
to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to
get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I
didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife
was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment,
and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office.
Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment,
and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the
Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. He had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.?
Mr. EVANS. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed
to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over
from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my
wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the
apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over.
Mr. JENNER. Did your wife question him in your presence about his
alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had
renounced his American citizenship?
Mr. EVANS. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He
said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said
he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did
not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we
knew, we were watching television, and his picture came on there, as
big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I
think it was on Canal Street--no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway,
the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Could that have been "Fair Play for Cuba"?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when you saw this on the screen?
Mr. EVANS. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in
this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife
had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on
Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not
to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved
in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their
apartment on Magazine Street; is that right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. And they never did visit you after that, either; is that
right?
Mr. EVANS. That's right. They didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this
breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first
showed up--at least, before you left for work?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were
there, at least?
Mr. EVANS. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I
had to get to the office.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee Oswald in any fits of temper, so to
speak?
Mr. EVANS. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that,
but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother
and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like
that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though,
I could tell that he was very demanding of her.
Mr. JENNER. Very demanding of his mother?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. What other impressions did you have of this boy?
Mr. EVANS. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was
so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt
that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything
he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or
anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his
mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding
of his mother than he was, and he was her husband.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee came between her and Mr.
Ekdahl?
Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. EVANS. Marguerite?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. EVANS. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman;
intelligent, very soft spoken--a beautiful woman, with black hair
streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since
this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like
she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman,
compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion
plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just
recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other
way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't
have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked
that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely
gray, and she really looks old.
Mr. JENNER. Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks
about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw
this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when
it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.
Mr. JENNER. Were you home when her picture came on television, along
with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest?
Mr. EVANS. No; I was at the store at the time. It was on television
there.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do when you saw it?
Mr. EVANS. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the
television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I
said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said,
"No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for
yourself."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would
lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence
on the person of anybody else?
Mr. EVANS. No; he was a good talker.
Mr. JENNER. He was a good talker?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his
age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted
for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his
expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud
voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother
or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty
awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She
would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that
she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a
kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about
changing then, at that early age.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other
children?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of this man in general when he
came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him?
Mr. EVANS. In what way?
Mr. JENNER. Well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial
status?
Mr. EVANS. You mean this boy?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or
the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you
learn about that?
Mr. EVANS. Well I don't think he had any money.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any
outside source of money?
Mr. EVANS. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife
and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because
we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he
couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what
seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors
and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of
this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was
getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and
taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for
anything.
Mr. JENNER. Then you saw no evidence of him having any money?
Mr. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think it possible that he might have received any
substantial quantities from any other source?
Mr. EVANS. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he
didn't have a coat on that I ever saw.
Mr. JENNER. No coat?
Mr. EVANS. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of
any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have
been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him.
I don't think his brothers helped him any.
Mr. JENNER. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to
the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have
asked you about, or that I just didn't know about, and that you think
might be of assistance to us in this investigation?
Mr. EVANS. No; not a thing.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter,
and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your
deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that
right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be
forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your
preference in that regard?
Mr. EVANS. I will waive that.
Mr. JENNER. You will waive that privilege?
Mr. EVANS. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have
already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just
wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in
his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at
least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him
that I could arrive at my own opinion.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in
voluntarily and answering these questions.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP EUGENE VINSON
The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. VINSON. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination
of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of
witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of
Congress No. 137.
The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice
prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think
you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that
notice if you want to.
I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to
waive it and go ahead.
Mr. VINSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that
I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the
rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking
of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to
them as you wish.
The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey
Oswald in the second grade?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. While that may not seem to have too much relationship
to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission
is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that
area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the
second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some
relevance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would
like you to state your full name.
Mr. VINSON. Philip Eugene Vinson.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Vinson?
Mr. VINSON. 4325 Baell Street, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth
newspaper, is that correct?
Mr. VINSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspaper?
Mr. VINSON. The Fort Worth Star Telegram.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by them?
Mr. VINSON. Since July 15, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work have you been doing for them?
Mr. VINSON. Reporter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general
reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing?
Mr. VINSON. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in
covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth,
and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the
two reporters in this bureau at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are actually presently located or based in
Arlington; is that correct?
Mr. VINSON. That's right. We have an office in Arlington.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to
work for the newspaper?
Mr. VINSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What other jobs have you had?
Mr. VINSON. When I started, I was given the routine work that most
beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just
general assignments on the city side or working through the city
editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks.
During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they
were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4
days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about
6 weeks.
And then around the first of September I became a full-time police
reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police
reporter until about October the 1--excuse me, until about, I would
say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the
dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than
2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish
this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter
to come out to work in Arlington.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Vinson?
Mr. VINSON. Twenty-three.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. VINSON. July 6, 1940.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. VINSON. Childress, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mr. VINSON. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about
120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of
Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live there?
Mr. VINSON. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception.
We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months,
and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was
this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to
live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find
us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now,
because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you and your mother finally moved to Fort Worth?
Mr. VINSON. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and
that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been
the second grade.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the first grade in Childress?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to the second grade in what school?
Mr. VINSON. Lily B. Clayton Elementary School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr. VINSON. 661 Seventh Avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. VINSON. I have one brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Older or younger?
Mr. VINSON. Younger.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he?
Mr. VINSON. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton
School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you first met him?
Mr. VINSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own
words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the
second grade?
Mr. VINSON. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually
became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I
got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there
before I got there.
In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year.
The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we
would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in
games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and
allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little
groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs.
We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several
key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they
were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being
the leaders.
But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who,
you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I
recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of
these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other
gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many kids were involved in this altogether?
Mr. VINSON. Well, the boys in our class.
Mr. LIEBELER. The boys in your second grade?
Mr. VINSON. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may
be 15 or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?
Mr. VINSON. Well, now, you mean in the class?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. VINSON. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they
were--there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class,
and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but
I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys.
And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people
in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very
vague, but I do remember this.
And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it
seemed that the other boys used to look up to his--let me start over.
They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky
and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of
little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big
and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what
I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a
year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later
on.
And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to
be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a
member of his little group.
And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a
tough-guy type, although not as a bully.
Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't a bully?
Mr. VINSON. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I
remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he
had any tendencies like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody?
Mr. VINSON. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out
on the schoolground. Really not out of anger.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys
who you have described as bullies?
Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you a member of Oswald's gang?
Mr. VINSON. No; I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were?
Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of
thing, you know, and I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these
out-of-school activities?
Mr. VINSON. I don't remember anything about him out of school.
Mr. LIEBELER. I mean out of the classroom?
Mr. VINSON. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom,
I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the
teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I
shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she
had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember
that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember
Oswald ever having this happen to him.
He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just
about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very--my
recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot
of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed
to be a quiet type of kid.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of
the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size?
Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think
he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were
several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he
was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And
this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our
teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name?
Mr. VINSON. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade
at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class
who had remembered him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what his name was?
Mr. VINSON. Bill Barnes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Barnes?
Mr. VINSON. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that
year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school
1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had
occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth.
He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or
something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run
across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw
him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with him his recollection of Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I couldn't get hold of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try?
Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just
didn't get an answer at the house or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with
Barnes about Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she
talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother
repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell
you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother
about Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing,
but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he
remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask
him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of
Popeye, "I eat me spinach".
That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I
recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would
say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I
took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or
something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him
as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the
gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort
of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough.
But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and
possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a
speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what--was
one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke.
Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any
particular difficulty getting along with the other boys?
Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did
after--outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good
many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever
played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They
could have, but I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact
that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground?
Mr. VINSON. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed
strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at
the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to
Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or
outside of the playground, at that time?
Mr. VINSON. I knew of none, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Oswald lived?
Mr. VINSON. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen
him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I
thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I
never knew anyone who did, or anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald had any brothers or sisters?
Mr. VINSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade
at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort
Worth?
Mr. VINSON. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do
recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school
with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one
of them. I just don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. What school did you go to? What school after you left
Lily B. Clayton?
Mr. VINSON. G. E. Talldy Elementary School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to high school from elementary school?
Mr. VINSON. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth
grade, and then to junior high for 3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. What junior High.
Mr. VINSON. Meadowbrook Junior High.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Fort Worth, also?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And from there you went to high school?
Mr. VINSON. Polytechnic High School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Also in Fort Worth?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you gone to college?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. VINSON. I went to two colleges. I went to Arlington State College.
Mr. LIEBELER. For how long?
Mr. VINSON. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went
there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and
the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one
semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960.
Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and
in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring
of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there
that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The
spring of 1963--excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from that school?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?
Mr. VINSON. Journalism.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily
B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else?
Mr. VINSON. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an
article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to
school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and
we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the
story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name,
and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class
pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I
could never find the teacher that--the day I was trying to do this and
I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in
the second grade.
But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying
to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could
help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life
Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had
seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for
a short time, and he told me just a few things.
I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what
elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although
he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. He, being Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Garrett know of Oswald in the sixth grade?
Was that Lily B. Clayton?
Mr. VINSON. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson
who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it.
I see you have a copy there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears
in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct?
Mr. VINSON. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and
sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it
was Ridglea West Elementary School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the
basis of the article?
Mr. VINSON. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember
offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is
accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the George Clark Elementary School?
Mr. VINSON. No. That was another year.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe Oswald did originally go to that school?
Mr. VINSON. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And
then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you talk to Garrett about?
Mr. VINSON. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember
offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known
Oswald in the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he
says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then
he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high
school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him,
that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him
if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said
that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and
remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something
about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the
idea of communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Oswald was in the Arlington High School?
Mr. VINSON. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to
the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not
see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or
expelled or what the situation was.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree
at this point?
Mr. VINSON. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he
gave me this communism pitch."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high
school he was in?
Mr. VINSON. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore
year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if
this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the
10th grade.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Garrett tell you anything else?
Mr. VINSON. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help
me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he
remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school
Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort
Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the
second grade?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of that with you?
Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't
know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in
effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't
told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned
something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good
grades.
Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way
it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory
he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I
don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who
did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along
those lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to
anybody who knew Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the
telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story.
Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star
Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort
Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did
talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about
Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture,
and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who
had a picture that Life could borrow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find one?
Mr. VINSON. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and
at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came
down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at
the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the
other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life
Magazine which we mentioned above?
Mr. VINSON. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the scene in this picture on page 68-B?
Mr. VINSON. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or
in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade.
Maybe the third.
Mr. LIEBELER. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to
be near the Lily B. Clayton School?
Mr. VINSON. No; it doesn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with
this article?
Mr. VINSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what
he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is
that correct?
Mr. VINSON. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I
understand.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told him essentially what you have told us and what
he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is
that correct?
Mr. VINSON. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the
story that I wrote in the Star Telegram.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him this personally?
Mr. VINSON. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather
than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just
quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story.
However, I noticed----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your
story in the Fort Worth Star?
Mr. VINSON. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of
the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code,
I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year
olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the
only big change.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about
Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. Well, about what I knew of Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. VINSON. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked
to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what
I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I
had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And
this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of
the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get
some pictures, and he went to--went ahead and contacted them anyway
after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent
than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it
in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures,
and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the
people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who
at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team
football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come
out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what
Jackson told me and what I have read in the story.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Ruggieri?
Mr. VINSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with him?
Mr. VINSON. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something
to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't
show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that
gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted
Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't
have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything
about that, did he?
Mr. VINSON. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He
didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and
he had disappeared after a few days.
Mr. LIEBELER. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying,
"I told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish
practice with a sprint, just like the others.
"He gave me the same answer. I told him to hand in his cleats."
The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made
to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys,
saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he
didn't want to.
Did you ever discuss this subject with Ruggieri?
Mr. VINSON. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and
didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him
for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if
he knew him.
I believe I didn't even ask him anything specifically about Oswald.
I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to
try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did
he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for
Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't
remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it.
But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to
speak with Jackson than he was with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever talked to you?
Mr. VINSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Secret Service?
Mr. VINSON. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last
night when he called and asked me to come over here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered
that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your
knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about
Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has
probably been brought to your attention, I don't know--I feel sure
it has--of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on
the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual
thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding
the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it
on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was
told about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the
Commission.
Mr. VINSON. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I
am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make
any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the
rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without
a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says
in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently
shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in
March.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope
on it when he bought it?
Mr. VINSON. I think this just was something that came out in my
discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation
just--somebody just made the observation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a
telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of
Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. VINSON. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand
Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only
scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out
in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Not as far as anybody else knows.
Mr. VINSON. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I
think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the
scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in
the fall of '63.
Mr. LIEBELER. There may well be something to that effect, but that
doesn't necessarily make it so.
Mr. VINSON. I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to
anybody that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope
for Oswald?
Mr. VINSON. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted
to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my
newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police
station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I
was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was
the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed
there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of
generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was
when it first came to my attention.
Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the
reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald,
immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when
I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I
even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over
here that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about
your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him
that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this
point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on
such short notice.
Mr. VINSON. I am happy to do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission appreciates your cooperation.
TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CONWAY
The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the
testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. CONWAY. I do.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal
staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren
Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress
of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances
leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President
John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon
B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the
Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The
Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the
Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as
the Warren Commission.
The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and
to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose
name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had
some contact with a man by that name?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we want to ask you a few questions about it.
Mr. CONWAY. I will be glad to answer them.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a
native Texan, are you?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age?
Mr. CONWAY. I'm 57, will be 58 next month.
Mr. JENNER. I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your business, occupation, or profession is what?
Mr. CONWAY. Tool inspector for General Dynamics.
Mr. JENNER. The General Dynamics Corp.?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Conway off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as
tool inspector for GD?
Mr. CONWAY. I am sorry--will take me a moment to think.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. CONWAY. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there--in
1945--August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is
when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any connection with Leslie Welding Co., at any
time?
Mr. CONWAY. With what?
Mr. JENNER. With Leslie Welding Co.? [Spelling] L-e-s-l-i-e.
Mr. CONWAY. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of Tommy Bargas?
Mr. CONWAY. I can't recall--I don't recall that name Tom Bargas--I
don't recall the name.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact
with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two
doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses.
Mr. JENNER. Ewing?
Mr. CONWAY. Ewing; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that is a single-family frame dwelling?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and
dining room together.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. CONWAY. I'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there.
Mr. JENNER. You say "they," who is that?
Mr. CONWAY. His mother and his older brother, who is a half brother.
Mr. JENNER. John Pic?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; his oldest brother, and then Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. So, there were three boys and a mother?
Mr. CONWAY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a husband or father?
Mr. CONWAY. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest
one on the place.
Mr. JENNER. And about how old was he at that time?
Mr. CONWAY. I believe he was around 8 or 9.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see, let's see--what year was that?
Mr. CONWAY. Oh, it must have been--I'm not quite sure, but I moved
there in 1948, and I'm not sure--I moved there in September or October.
Mr. JENNER. October of 1948?
Mr. CONWAY. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of
the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there.
Mr. JENNER. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you
are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old.
Mr. CONWAY. Approximately--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had children at that time?
Mr. CONWAY. I had one daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Age?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed--I don't know
exactly when my daughter was born--1933, I believe, so that would be 15.
Mr. JENNER. About 15 years old?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with
Lee who was then 9 years old?
Mr. CONWAY. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John.
She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have
been slightly older than her, maybe 1-1/2 or 2 years, I'm not quite
sure.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter is now married?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?
Mr. CONWAY. Mrs. J. C. Bell (Spelling) B-e-l-l.
Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?
Mr. CONWAY. She lives on Santa Fe, I think, it's 2904.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her telephone number?
Mr. CONWAY. CI 4-2394, it would be--Circle. I'm almost sure that's
right.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Conway living?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did the family live there?
Mr. CONWAY. How long did they live there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. CONWAY. I think almost 4 years--it was in the vicinity of 4 years.
It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was
approximately 4 years.
Mr. JENNER. And did these boys come to your attention?
Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of
mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand.
I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base.
Mr. JENNER. Is that so?
Mr. CONWAY. I think so--John is a fine fellow.
Mr. JENNER. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic,
you came to know the other boys, too?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; fairly well.
Mr. JENNER. In and around the neighborhood?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the
time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him?
Mr. CONWAY. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the
neighborhood was all.
Mr. JENNER. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a
judgment as to his general disposition?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that and tell us something--some
incidents about it?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile
nature--he was mean when he was angry, just ornery--he was vicious
almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with
his two brothers, Robert and John?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; John was a very genuine character, a fine boy.
Mr. JENNER. What about Robert?
Mr. CONWAY. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't
very often get into much trouble.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing like Lee?
Mr. CONWAY. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for
children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in
the neighborhood?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually
seeing him fight--the children didn't fight with him much, they got out
of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to
catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have
caught one of them.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4
years or were they isolated incidences?
Mr. CONWAY. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things
not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my
mind. I didn't see him very often--I have seen him try to fight with
his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they
would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try
to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that--I don't--it's
been a long time.
Mr. JENNER. Was he left alone a good deal?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; quite a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Describe that circumstance, will you please?
Mr. CONWAY. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately
because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get
home--I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where
is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like
that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out.
He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him
play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate
knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being
absolutely sure--I'm not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his
mother, worked?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of
where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually
worked nights--I usually worked nights.
Mr. JENNER. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this
4-year period as a rule?
Mr. CONWAY. I believe it was. I'm not absolutely sure but I believe it
was.
Mr. JENNER. At least off and on during the 4-year period you did work
nights?
Mr. CONWAY. I'm almost sure that I did.
Mr. JENNER. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and
after school at least?
Mr. CONWAY. It's funny, but I'm not so--not absolutely sure what year I
started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort
Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that
was the--was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before
they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second
shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible
since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift
almost all times they were there.
Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when the family moved?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it
must have been in 1951 or 1952.
Mr. JENNER. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that
would be 1952.
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the
family moved?
Mr. CONWAY. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Take this boy who you took a particular interest in--John
Pic.
Mr. CONWAY. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to
me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful
cloudy on that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, have you exhausted your recollection on that?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't know--I remember talking to John--John, when
he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember
talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast
Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe
he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard
before his mother moved away.
Mr. JENNER. You--could you refresh your recollection that he did leave
before the mother and Lee left?
Mr. CONWAY. I believe I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. And he was in the Coast Guard and stationed in New York?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. New York City, Staten Island, as a matter of fact?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and
I believe--I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that
she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John
left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my
contact with them.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when
Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service?
Mr. CONWAY. That, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the
names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this
vicinity, whom you think might recall him.
Mr. CONWAY. What year did you say he was born in?
Mr. JENNER. 1939, October 18.
Mr. CONWAY. 1939----
Mr. JENNER. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of
age--this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next
October.
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live
across the street.
Mr. JENNER. Give me their full name and address and telephone number,
if you will?
Mr. CONWAY. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was
fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by
house. The Masseys don't remember--I don't believe Barbara Anne does,
Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age,
but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all.
Mr. JENNER. Is Barbara Anne living with her folks?
Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; she's married now. I don't know what her last name
is.
Mr. JENNER. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs.
H. R. Massey.
Mr. CONWAY. [Spelling] M-a-s-s-e-y.
Mr. JENNER. And they live across the street from you?
Mr. CONWAY. That's right--they live at 7425 Ewing.
Mr. JENNER. Do I have your permission to talk with Mrs. Conway?
Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I suggested that she come with me and save a trip.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, that would have been nice.
Mr. CONWAY. I don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants
to do.
Mr. JENNER. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if
she is free, tomorrow afternoon.
Mr. CONWAY. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has
been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her
memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call
out home sometime tonight?
Mr. CONWAY. All right.
Mr. JENNER. And we will leave it up to her?
Mr. CONWAY. I'm sure she would be glad to do all she could.
Mr. JENNER. Can you think of any others?
Mr. CONWAY. The Turners, they just live--oh, Bill Bridges would be
the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the
neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was
older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old
as my daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I might talk with him on the telephone.
Mr. CONWAY. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I
believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Halliburton, Tex.?
Mr. CONWAY. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home
office is.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen him around Fort Worth?
Mr. CONWAY. Bill?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. CONWAY. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his
family and it's been quite a little while ago.
Mr. JENNER. His first name is William and his last name is what?
Mr. CONWAY. Bridges (spelling) B-r-i-d-g-e-s.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can
find him that way.
Mr. CONWAY. He is with Halliburton, I remember the last time I talked
to him.
Mr. JENNER. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was
attending elementary school, what elementary school is that?
Mr. CONWAY. I'm sorry--I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. And the high school?
Mr. CONWAY. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing
so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know.
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with
Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; I knew Mrs. Oswald. She was in my house a few times.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of
Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the--to her care of these
boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period.
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I think she was--my impression was that she felt
burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards
her children.
Mr. JENNER. Selfish?
Mr. CONWAY. Selfish--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that?
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared
to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't
care--they were embarrassed about their dress.
Mr. JENNER. They were?
Mr. CONWAY. Some of them were--John, especially and sometimes Robert, I
think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good
kids about it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did John speak to you on that subject?
Mr. CONWAY. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his
mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about--hearsay,
you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me
that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should
buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why
she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of
the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said,
"She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this remark that you just made that the
boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school?
Mr. CONWAY. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a
time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this
distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job.
Mr. JENNER. And did Robert work also?
Mr. CONWAY. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee?
Mr. CONWAY. I don't think so. Robert would have if he could have gotten
a job.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he
industrious or not?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he was--you mean Robert?
Mr. JENNER. No; I mean Lee.
Was he industrious?
Mr. CONWAY. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he
was too small.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an
emotional child?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush
and he would just storm at other children.
Mr. JENNER. He was quick to anger?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes; quite quick.
Mr. JENNER. And did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive
child?
Mr. CONWAY. I suppose so--I thought he was a very strange type of
person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average
in intelligence around that age--being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch
on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things.
Mr. JENNER. What is your middle initial, do you have one?
Mr. CONWAY. P. (Spelling) P-i-e-r-c-e.
Mr. JENNER. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding
Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie
Welding in Fort Worth?
Mr. CONWAY. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram--that--there's more
than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand.
I never heard of Leslie Welding.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald worked for Leslie Welding at one time.
Mr. CONWAY. He did?
Mr. JENNER. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway
and that's why I started out with you on that.
Mr. CONWAY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952,
from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald?
Mr. CONWAY. Never saw him again.
Mr. JENNER. Or John?
Mr. CONWAY. Oh, yes; I see John.
Mr. JENNER. He comes to visit you occasionally?
Mr. CONWAY. John never comes to Fort Worth without coming to see me.
Mr. JENNER. And Robert?
Mr. CONWAY. Robert never comes to see me.
Mr. JENNER. Robert lives in Fort Worth.
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't ever see him at all.
Mr. JENNER. He never comes back to pay you a visit?
Mr. CONWAY. No.
Mr. JENNER. And Marguerite, have you seen her since they left?
Mr. CONWAY. Since when----
Mr. JENNER. Since 1952?
Mr. CONWAY. My wife has talked with her since then. Just briefly.
Mr. JENNER. Since November 22d?
Mr. CONWAY. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just
a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks.
She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I
saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times
on television and she looks just like she always did except a little
heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I
remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated
to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in
its work?
Mr. CONWAY. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think
of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even
to go with what you have.
When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he
had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John--you see, I taught Bill
and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee
picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee
would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would
lose a game.
Mr. JENNER. You heard that, too?
Mr. CONWAY. Yes, I have heard he would become angry.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your
deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to
waive that privilege.
Mr. CONWAY. Well, I don't care anything about reading it--I know what I
have said.
Mr. JENNER. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your
deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET
The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr.
Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of
your deposition.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not,
three documents.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the
legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission
to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our
President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson
appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive
Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the
taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive
those?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret--and don't feel
offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads
and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out,
then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch
head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed
to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs.
Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents
that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the
facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22,
1963, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal
staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee
Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th
of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission
a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our
purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as
you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with
whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We
understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with
you, that you will be able to help us.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will if I can.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing
going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about
Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your
knowledge.
Mrs. MURRET. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and
I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your
knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.
(Glass of water given to witness.)
Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee
Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. Claverie.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?
Mrs. MURRET. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.
Mrs. JENNER. And your first name is Lillian?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you born in New Orleans yourself?
Mrs. MURRET. New Orleans; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were your brothers and sisters born here?
Mrs. MURRET. They were.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana--Cajuns.
Mr. JENNER. Cajun and American?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not my grandparents.
Mr. JENNER. Not your grandparents?
Mrs. MURRET. No. On my father's side were from France, and my
grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a
question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it
is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my
first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?
Mrs. MURRET. What my age is?
Mr. JENNER. How old are you?
Mrs. MURRET. I will be 64 in May, May 17.
Mr. JENNER. And how old is Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. I think she should be 57.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.
Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many
times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known
her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.
Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that P-I-C?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an
explanation for that, do you think?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because
the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward
John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know
which way it is.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took
place?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything
like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they
were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not
really too accurate as to years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, as closely as you can come to it.
Mrs. MURRET. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall
exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't
remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2
years, we'll say----
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about
that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you
present? What do you know about that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it
took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have
taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that
or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very
long time.
Mr. JENNER. She had known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.
Mr. JENNER. What did he do as a stevedore?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it
was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.
Mr. JENNER. He is alive?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that.
I don't know what the initials stand for.
Mr. JENNER. T. as in Thomas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And B. as in Benny?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Smith?
Mrs. MURRET. Smith, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as I know.
The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river,
saw him out there, but it was from a distance.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite
married Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET. I was already married.
Mr. JENNER. You were already married then?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John
Pic, does he?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a
distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I
would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long
ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very
peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless
you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or
something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say
anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't
guess some of it is.
Mr. JENNER. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or
not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information
assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything
that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the
Commission in this investigation.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said
he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than
he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for
Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and
Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and
somebody else--lawyers.
Mr. JENNER. Was Sere a lawyer?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers
together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer
too.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell his name?
Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Sere?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. S-E-R-E.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Sere still alive?
Mrs. MURRET. He is not.
Mr. JENNER. He is dead?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about
Marguerite's first marriage.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she
told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said
Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place,
and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and
rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and
then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that
Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at
that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that
rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they
took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and
so forth while she was working.
Mr. JENNER. How old was she then?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, let's see--John must be about 31 years old now.
Mr. JENNER. You mean her son John?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years
before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything,
but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.
Mr. JENNER. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that
be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. Twenty-six--I don't think she was that old; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, 31 from 57 is 26.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she
was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old.
Let's see--well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married,
you see.
Mr. JENNER. Oh--well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22
years.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in
there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.
Mr. JENNER. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22
years old; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's about right.
Mr. JENNER. What was her formal education?
Mrs. MURRET. She had a high school education.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say
about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.
Mr. JENNER. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic,
previous to that.
Mr. JENNER. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied
to her as to his income, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City
Park area; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And she found when they went out there, or whatever
occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was
making; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so she went back to work.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't
she?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't,
but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park
area. That was when I was referring to.
Mr. JENNER. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in
sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section.
I have forgotten which section that was.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became
pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. Was that when they had the house?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that
they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it
was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.
Mr. JENNER. Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant,
and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was
pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support
her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact
that she was pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't want any children?
Mrs. MURRET. He didn't want any children, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. This would have been when they were married approximately 3
years; would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?
Mrs. MURRET. We were very close.
Mr. JENNER. Very close?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and
we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and
Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your
brothers and sisters. Your father died when?
Mrs. MURRET. My father?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he died about 33 years ago.
Mr. JENNER. Thirty-three years ago?
Mrs. MURRET. About that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did your mother die?
Mrs. MURRET. My mother died about 1911.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she preceded your father?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. So when your father died, you children were then orphans;
is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34
years of age?
Mrs. MURRET. I was married when my father died. I had three children
when my father died. One child was a baby.
Mr. JENNER. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is
yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?
Mrs. MURRET. I have two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Two brothers?
Mrs. MURRET. And we were four sisters.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now give me the brothers' names.
Mrs. MURRET. Their names are Charles and John.
Mr. JENNER. Charles Claverie and John Claverie?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Are they alive?
Mrs. MURRET. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5
months apart.
Mr. JENNER. Were they teenagers?
Mrs. MURRET. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the
other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted
tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.
Mr. JENNER. Was that Charles or John?
Mrs. MURRET. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.
Mr. JENNER. And he died at age 18?
Mrs. MURRET. Around that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had four sisters, you say?
Mrs. MURRET. Including myself.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; including yourself.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. One sister was Marguerite.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And yourself, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else?
Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that pronounced Aminthe?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. That sounds French, is it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it's French.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what's the other sister's name?
Mrs. MURRET. Pearl. She died.
Mr. JENNER. Pearl is dead?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Aminthe living at the present time?
Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe is living in Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER. Knoxville, Tenn.?
Mrs. MURRET. Tennessee, yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it Charles was the oldest?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and I was next.
Mr. JENNER. You were next?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; John was next.
Mr. JENNER. John was next?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was
Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John was third.
Mrs. MURRET. John was third, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite was fourth?
Mrs. MURRET. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.
Mr. JENNER. How about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, let's see--that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.
Mr. JENNER. And Pearl was fifth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was
sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just
so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles,
Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How old was Pearl when she died?
Mrs. MURRET. She died recently. She was about 54.
Mr. JENNER. She was in her fifties?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she die of natural causes?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occupation of your father?
Mrs. MURRET. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service.
He worked for them approximately around 40 years.
Mr. JENNER. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken
out the first mule car, I think--when they had mule cars, before they
had the handbrakes on the cars.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal
education, beyond high school?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John
who died when he was 18?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did John finish high school?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Charles?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made
about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on
this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross,"
and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to
someone, and I never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER. How unfortunate.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything
that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany,
you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.
Mr. JENNER. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?
Mrs. MURRET. On the transport.
Mr. JENNER. He was a gunner on a transport?
Mrs. MURRET. Transport; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is
alive; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Aminthe is alive too.
Mr. JENNER. Did you complete high school?
Mrs. MURRET. I did not. I didn't even go to high school.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you complete elementary school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was
probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school,
or did she?
Mrs. MURRET. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but
she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then
she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and
my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some
cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I
being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We
were just trying to keep the family together more or less.
You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth,
and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got
old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would
help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy
family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much
happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My
father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his
family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.
Mr. JENNER. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of
this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family
and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I
don't want you to think I am just being curious.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I understand.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out the family background so that we
can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey
Oswald. You understand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life
I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very
happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but
we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.
Mr. JENNER. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you
say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her
attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her
personality.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a
very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at
all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.
Mr. JENNER. I think she's nice looking.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty
girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.
Mr. JENNER. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along
with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about
that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all
the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course
she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an
opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were
wrong.
Mr. JENNER. How do you and Marguerite get along now?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't
say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls,
and how you got along then.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, when we were girls, we got along.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with
her, anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to
think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like
that. We did get along pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you
had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage
to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did
you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield,
whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite
her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said.
Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right.
I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know,
just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong,
I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong,
because there were things where we just didn't think alike.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. MURRET. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was
wrong.
Mr. JENNER. She thought you were wrong?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about
it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about
anything. She would just, you know, fly off.
Mr. JENNER. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a
source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding
controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any
change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything
that you can recall of that nature?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or
whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just
go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from
her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she
probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to
New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold
anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.
Mr. JENNER. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and
sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they did for a while.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for
your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans
area?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of
course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really
anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when
I first got married, she stayed with me then.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed
together.
Mr. JENNER. You and your husband and your father and your sister
Marguerite stayed together?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.
Mr. JENNER. What is the business or occupation of your husband?
Mrs. MURRET. What is his occupation?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies,
but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other
words.
Mr. JENNER. Different what?
Mrs. MURRET. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he
doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf.
He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have
work, he will work for someone else.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what else you know about John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET. What else?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, about Edward John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me.
She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she
was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I
think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give
me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything,
what was the reason or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she left John.
Mr. JENNER. Did she leave him?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would
do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would
think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a
chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she
left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of
the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Before they were divorced?
Mrs. MURRET. Before they were divorced; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that a little?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; if I can.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her
personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference
from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she
would act without thinking things over?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her
mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast
without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a
problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will
have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite.
She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she
made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would
find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick
decisions.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl
as well as a mature lady?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything like that before she was
married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.
Mr. JENNER. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that
she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick
acting in her personality?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. And you think she failed to think things over, that she
didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes
ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she
needed to reach a decision, is that it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over
before I did them, but she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?
Mrs. MURRET. You can call it that if you like.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you
really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I
don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a
tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want
you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality
characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City
Park section, in Carrollton.
Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that for me, please?
Mrs. MURRET. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs
from yours.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my southern drawl.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a
distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not
a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation
which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana.
I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's
as long as your arm.
I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean,
with a sharp enunciation.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was she working at that time?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she was not working then.
Mr. JENNER. How was she being supported?
Mrs. MURRET. Eddie was supporting her.
Mr. JENNER. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that
time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to
pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he
contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until
he was 18 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2
years old, she married Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a minute.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward
Pic embittered her?
Mrs. MURRET. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She
seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she
show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting
along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from
him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home.
We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I
would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner
and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he
was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said
she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come
over and stay a while, and he did.
Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that,
but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John,
was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an
infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was
cruel, because I don't believe in that.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she
refused to permit her former husband to see the child?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the
child or not. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she
wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have
desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't
know that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie
see the child; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't
think, not after he was a child.
Mr. JENNER. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of
Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was
unusual insofar as personality is concerned?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I can think of.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all
I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was
just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for
a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted,
and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him
a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she
got alimony for herself.
Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize
and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a
lot wouldn't know how to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Of course I gather from what you have said--as a matter
of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been
surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a
motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were necessarily poor people.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent,
or $14 a month house rent--I forget which--and every day he would give
us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left
out of the $1, believe it or not.
My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to
the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress
by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left
out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We
could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?
Mrs. MURRET. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and
spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't
have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We
had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In
the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see,
were out.
I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk
about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had
skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson
Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us
take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we
would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that
Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining.
She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer,
but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father
bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had
a lot of fun.
We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our
bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children
have to do today.
I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want
their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them
just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to
the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's
the thing to do.
Mr. JENNER. What's the Blue Room?
Mrs. MURRET. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a place of entertainment?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling
and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and
all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all
the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.
They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people
around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to
relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like
that either.
Mr. JENNER. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2
years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened
during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true
or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to
lie about anything.
Mr. JENNER. You never have?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things
didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a
tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?
Mrs. MURRET. I would say, when you put it that way--I would say if she
expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do
that, well, then that was the wrong thing.
Mr. JENNER. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry,
or show any emotional trait at all?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared
excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt
that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you
didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain
to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her
if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who
was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or
anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason
with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be
right all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to
get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just
as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything
that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like
that.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe
it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no
control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times
things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see
eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You
couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently,
then you were just wrong.
Mr. JENNER. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?
Mrs. MURRET. She was very independent, in other words. She was very
independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't
think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how
much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was
actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of
times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one
little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would
have these little differences.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when
she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you
could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans
again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if
accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would
go ahead and give her help again.
Mr. JENNER. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle
sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these
incidents would arise?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were
the older sister and really head of the family?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't
act that way?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her
marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something
my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always
believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did
that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I
had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.
Mr. JENNER. She questioned that?
Mrs. MURRET. With me, yes; I mean, about the children.
Mr. JENNER. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it
was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your
children?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember
this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell me about it.
Mrs. MURRET. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was
just married October 5.
Mr. JENNER. Of what year?
Mrs. MURRET. This year, 1963--this past year.
Mr. JENNER. Your son John?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; well, she was over at the house----
Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about now?
Mrs. MURRET. Marguerite
Mr. JENNER. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what
happened?
Mrs. MURRET. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a
young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see,
so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about your house?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and
it was a rainy day, and John and this girl friend--we were all in
the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one
another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that
they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and
he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said,
"Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each
other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note
telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back
to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big
bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they
were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe
John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I
said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall
that was.
Mr. JENNER. Was that just this last fall, in October?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't
seen--this was quite a while previous to that--maybe 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that
time, or after.
Mr. JENNER. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected.
Mrs. MURRET. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now.
Mr. JENNER. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to
Russia right after that.
Mrs. MURRET. I just can't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on
my route.
Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector?
Mrs. MURRET. For Metropolitan; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He collected insurance premiums?
Mrs. MURRET. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.
Mr. JENNER. Was that weekly or monthly, or what?
Mrs. MURRET. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and
so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good
insurance man, I think.
Mr. JENNER. He was an energetic man?
Mrs. MURRET. He was.
Mr. JENNER. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he
collected in my area.
Mr. JENNER. He was already divorced from his wife?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had he had any children of that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and
Marguerite became acquainted?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry
her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic--I'm not too sure of that--and
Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.
Mr. JENNER. He had to leave the church?
Mrs. MURRET. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the
Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He
could go to mass.
Mr. JENNER. He happened to be Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go
ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and
Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of
religion. You are Catholic.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you always been Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father
was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the
Lutheran religion.
Mr. JENNER. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that
we went to Sunday school.
Mr. JENNER. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday
school, to the Lutheran church?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph.
I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us
children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and
he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so
he continued that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted?
Mrs. MURRET. No. John Pic--rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About
the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything
she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then
after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section
then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing
section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite
a school, and it was a very nice place.
Mr. JENNER. What's the name of the school?
Mrs. MURRET. William T. Frantz, they call it.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Frantz?
Mrs. MURRET. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is.
Mr. JENNER. There were two children born of that marriage; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born
after his father died.
Mr. JENNER. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on
October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister
wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father,
and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't
want to change his name.
Mr. JENNER. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony
terminated, did it?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so, but John still received his.
Mr. JENNER. The child support continued?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started
to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There
was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in
there--he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young
woman was in the store----
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are
you referring to John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was
working in the store--you see, Marguerite didn't have any children
then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young
woman said to John--he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute
little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward
Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear
it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the
colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that
happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child,
and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her
mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store,
and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked
him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By
any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had
married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that
he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled--an
aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read
everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it.
My sister did tell me the story about that.
Mr. JENNER. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. The Oswald marriage?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go
over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and
naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything,
and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would
drop by, but we didn't visit too often.
Mr. JENNER. They had a car and they had a home?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their
own home on Alvar Street?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and
during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think,
and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin,
and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the
right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it
seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come
out, he just toppled over.
Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had
insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever
it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been
safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no
insurance on the house, or whatever it was.
Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a
baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she
bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember
where, and then she sold that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on.
When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did
your sister return to work?
Mrs. MURRET. Not right away.
Mr. JENNER. Not right away?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned
to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance,
but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an
insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return
to work after a period of about 3 years?
Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee
after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took
care of Lee when he was that age.
Mr. JENNER. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that.
Mrs. MURRET. When Lee was a very small child?
Mr. JENNER. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that
3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take
care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was--I don't know how that came
along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and
her husband--I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that,
but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so
forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how
they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee
for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at
an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was
smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than
some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very
friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I
would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really
looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in
town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so
forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I
could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert
are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so--in other words,
I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age,
from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age,
grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and
I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's
why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his
nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's
kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have
everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived
in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would
still get out.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by a basement house?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has
a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath,
which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.
Mr. JENNER. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you
at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. She had gone back to work; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What sort of work did she do?
Mrs. MURRET. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of
the stores in town.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much.
Mr. JENNER. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a
home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home.
I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so
she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so
forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put
them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.
Mr. JENNER. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans?
Mrs. MURRET. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who
have one parent.
Mr. JENNER. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be
back here at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained
the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and
did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work,
and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did
you have him?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married
Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.
Mr. JENNER. That was 1948; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little
before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really
didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient
myself.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when
that was?
Mrs. MURRET. When she married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. JENNER. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home.
Mrs. MURRET. That I had what?
Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, when he was about 3 years old.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been about 1942; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite
married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken
him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I
don't recall exactly how that was now.
Mr. JENNER. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have
been 9 years old; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long;
not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.
Mr. JENNER. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home
on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere
in there?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. He was 3 years old?
Mrs. MURRET. About 3; yes.
Mr. JENNER. When he came with you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How old was he when he left?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left
me.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he
was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem
orphanage?
Mrs. MURRET. He did. He was out there for a while.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come from your home to the orphanage?
Mrs. MURRET. I really don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he
was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, the incident could have been--I don't know if it was
that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any
more, or something like that; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have any clear recollection on that score?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about
5 years old?
Mrs. MURRET. About; yes.
Mr. JENNER. When he left your home?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem
orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the boys out there at any time?
Mrs. MURRET. I visited out there with Marguerite.
Mr. JENNER. And that was on what; a weekend?
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there,
and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an
old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife.
The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open.
In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles
on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that
neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed
to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out
and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang
for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or
anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think
they would keep those boys there free.
Mr. JENNER. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. What was that?
Mr. JENNER. She was working?
Mrs. MURRET. She was working; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In some department store or something like that here in New
Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the
time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have
been one of these Jean's--what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over
there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the
time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know
what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married
Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald--that is, the
father of Lee Harvey Oswald--before they were married?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so
I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew
him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she
knew him at that time or not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her
husband, Edward John Pic, separated?
Mrs. MURRET. I doubt it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the
separation and before the divorce?
Mrs. MURRET. That must have been it. She must have known him during
that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you
will. What kind of man was he?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot,
I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was energetic?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan,
one of their top salesmen.
Mr. JENNER. And he was an outgoing person, you say?
Mrs. MURRET. He seemed to be.
Mr. JENNER. Would you call him an extrovert?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I
can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but
he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be
getting along all right, so far as I could tell.
Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald,
did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children
myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr.
Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we
didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around;
in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we
didn't do much visiting.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz."
Mr. JENNER. That's his nickname?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that D-u-t-z?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way,
because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters,
and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by
the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone
book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Does he still use that name?
Mrs. MURRET. He does.
Mr. JENNER. Is your telephone listed in that name?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His
uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always
knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but
that, but his family always called him Charles.
Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. What is your husband's business again?
Mrs. MURRET. He works as a clerk.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald,
the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything
about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around
the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little
forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it
helps on the debits, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But not forward in any other respect?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. I mean he was a gentleman?
Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about his family?
Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one
brother who was the godfather of Lee--little Lee Oswald, you know--and
I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know
about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?
Mrs. MURRET. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was
after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were
friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more
friendship. I don't know why.
Mr. JENNER. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still
existed, or was it afterward?
Mrs. MURRET. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any
friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I
couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death
of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know
what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or were advised, that was never
repaired, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection of that event is what?
Mrs. MURRET. What do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about that incident?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all,
other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one
time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like,
and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he
was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic
about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here
and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead
and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I
guess, to marry Ed.
Mr. JENNER. His name was Edward Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your best recollection that you met him once
before the marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. That's all I saw him; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the
marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried
man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think,
and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them,
I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.
I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You
see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the
grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't
like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with
Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with
her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she
had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a military school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with
beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for
these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that
responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as
far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.
Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she
is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I
understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until
he became of school age.
During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could
have her other two boys with her on vacation.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away,
over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and
they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's off in that direction?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed
there with the boys in the summer.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit you once in a while?
Mrs. MURRET. With Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this
was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at
Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't
travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and
then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that
time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you
were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington
and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now,
whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.
The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about
that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had
bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she
had spoke something about buying a duplex.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like--this is what
she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what
she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they
went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the
upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was
outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or
lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister
introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You
are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."
Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating
what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know
what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and
she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over
in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything
about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the
situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets.
He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the
place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him
that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that
she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no,
she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much
trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and
when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever
it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other
ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his
ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true
to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr.
Ekdahl----
Mr. JENNER. Who?
Mrs. MURRET. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I
don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway
they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and
she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the
boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he
hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she
opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the
living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and
tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his
coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so
she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business,
which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on
business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of
course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and
that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten
a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big
salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like,
but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get
the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone
to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her
that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a
heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the
cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to
the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the
hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I
don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then
she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very
much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the
end of the Ekdahl affair.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning
now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem
orphanage after he left the house; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed
there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at
my house, I would say, between 1-1/2 and 2 years, and then I couldn't
keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or
something.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of dissension?
Mrs. MURRET. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to
take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with
the other two boys in the home then.
Mr. JENNER. She was quick tempered, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what I mean; yes.
Mr. JENNER. She would flare up in a moment; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take
anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not
reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you
can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where
the other party never seems to be doing anything.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation
that was warranted, is that what you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I
kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we
liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own
children, and this was her life. She made her own life.
Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make
it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether
she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but
she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.
Mr. JENNER. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had met him only once, I believe you said?
Mrs. MURRET. Once; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Were you at the wedding?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in
Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised that she was about to marry him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no,
sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip,
and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of
the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed
to be doing O.K., you know.
Mr. JENNER. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married
in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a
divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't
know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He
had a son.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were
they not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister,
that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him.
She went up to see them, I think.
Mr. JENNER. In Boston?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think his sister influenced her a lot?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as
his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you
get from what she said to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she just said that she thought things would be
different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she
would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and
having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under
the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything
about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she
told me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume
responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what she said.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and
Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?
Mrs. MURRET. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.
Mr. JENNER. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their
way?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I
can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never
done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire
circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and
she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like
something happening or something you did or said, something like that.
Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know
the other side. I only know one side.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to
1941?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember
those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.
Mr. JENNER. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New
Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect
that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence.
She bought this house on Bartholomew.
Mr. JENNER. And she lived there about a year; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long she lived there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. What street?
Mr. JENNER. Broadway.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. 2136 Broadway?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about
the 10th of September 1942.
Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing of that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in
Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over
there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?
Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were
over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to
Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?
Mrs. MURRET. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down
on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could
be. It was a very old place.
Mr. JENNER. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am
afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married
him, which squares more with your recollection.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was
around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having
him at 8 years old.
Mr. JENNER. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in
Texas was it that they moved to?
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. They moved to Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your
recollection on that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean
after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't
recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I
really don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?
Mrs. MURRET. I never knew she lived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went
from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just
don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property
some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably
mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that,
and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired
listening to this merry-go-round?
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.
Mrs. MURRET. It would be too bad if you did.
Mr. JENNER. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas,
Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up
until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh.
Mr. JENNER. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just
asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone
to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe
she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we
didn't correspond.
Mr. JENNER. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was
living with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys
around Christmas time, and that's about all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or
snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET. Of Lee Harvey?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Ekdahl.
Mrs. MURRET. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him
bring that in the morning when he comes in?
Mrs. MURRET. The snapshot?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other
pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and
that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced
by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit
as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was
living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture,
where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect
her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was
Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946,
she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311
Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that
this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?
Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business,
you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in
periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that he was a research man for what
company?
Mrs. MURRET. A sick man?
Mr. JENNER. No; a research man.
Mrs. MURRET. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his
salary was over $1,000 a month.
Mr. JENNER. Which is a substantial amount of money; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250
better than $1,000.
Mr. JENNER. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit.
If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very
substantial income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial
income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. We people?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, the Murret family.
Mrs. MURRET. My family?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had
that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money.
Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to
educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how
tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have
that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and
who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all
the time.
Mr. JENNER. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still
studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that
everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he
went to St. Louis U.
Mr. JENNER. St. Louis?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a
scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for
about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept
after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went
to Loyola.
Mr. JENNER. Loyola of Chicago?
Mrs. MURRET. No; Loyola of New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. MURRET. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him
play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball
player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St.
Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get
anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.
Mr. JENNER. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis
Cardinals farm teams; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball
and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the
boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he
was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some
kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.
Mr. JENNER. He works for the Swift Co. now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. How nice.
Mrs. MURRET. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with
the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his
travels in connection with his business?
Mrs. MURRET. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was your information, that she had her boys at
Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband
Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not,
because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of
these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there
with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I
even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that during that summer vacation period?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you then that they were in Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she had not.
Mr. JENNER. Is Covington very far away?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How far away is it?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was
getting along with her husband?
Mrs. MURRET. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation
over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would
just stay there while he went to school.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in
Covington, La.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she do that?
Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The
next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. When she left Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and
she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put
them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At her own expense?
Mrs. MURRET. So she said.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at that time around 5 years old?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or maybe a little older?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in
his travels; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but
that she had to support him; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support
Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.
Mr. JENNER. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. But it was your impression that he was previously married
and had a son; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad
heart?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very
bad heart, I believe she said.
Mr. JENNER. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she
approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they did marry?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No children were born of that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was married to him very long.
Mr. JENNER. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know about the date on that.
Mr. JENNER. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was
not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went
on.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already told us about that.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at
the time she married Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and
moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was
a very low-priced residence.
Mr. JENNER. At 1010 Bartholomew?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else
about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying
property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but
things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way
you would like them to work out.
Mr. JENNER. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?
Mrs. MURRET. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she
was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was before the assassination?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. She said then that she was selling insurance?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very
long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so
forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but
during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from
the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to
stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching
school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would
call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they
were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go
out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident;
that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her
nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about
that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of
clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of
things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could,
$5, $10, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?
Mrs. MURRET. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the
Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out
of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a
hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now,
that was over the telephone, I think.
Mr. JENNER. That was a telephone conversation you had with her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited
here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me
what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they
let him out of the service, right after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in
this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and
then he said, "Well, this is not for me."
Mr. JENNER. Who said that?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had
saved over $1,000 or $1,400--I don't know the amount--but after he got
home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm
leaving."
Mr. JENNER. Lee said that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans;
so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she
thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a
runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he
might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house,
but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at
the house. If he did, I didn't know it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was
waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the
house, you know, this might not have happened.
Mr. JENNER. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by
or called?
Mrs. MURRET. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or
maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you would have tried, anyhow.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that
afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come,
you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had
seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone
with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush
man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more
about Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After
the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could
have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together.
Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and
things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have
happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced,
then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee,
and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All living in in their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way
she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the
house after school, and things like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the
house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run
home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said
she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the
house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to
have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't
get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it
safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children,
but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the
habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got
like that; he was with himself so much.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to
time?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of
this period, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl,
I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think
Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support
the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from
high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some
little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the
family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together
to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was
crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that
he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he
did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her
being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the
details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that.
He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. The same as Lee Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation.
Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told
me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between
Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know
anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and
she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and
she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.
Mr. JENNER. Hosiery?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go
to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to
school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and
they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she
had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he
told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could
with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must
have been on the way back--I didn't even know she had went to New York,
but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to
stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up
for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was
getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after
she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it
was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a
while.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get
back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl
died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after
Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went
to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.
Mr. JENNER. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as
to when she went to New York?
Mrs. MURRET. 1952?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was living here--let's see----
Mr. JENNER. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New
York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of
1952?
Mrs. MURRET. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I
might remember.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar
to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know that one.
Mr. JENNER. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an
address where they lived in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was
the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party
that bought it.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she
always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the
rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on
the deal.
Mr. JENNER. She reported that to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's
the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she
spoke about.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Patricia Aarons?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Herman Conway?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Thomas W. Turner?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of him.
Mr. JENNER. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was
supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her;
is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. What?
Mr. JENNER. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. She got some assistance from her sons, did she?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she
had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was
in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed
anything--John, but I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that about that time she was
becoming increasingly despondent with life?
Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather,
she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.
Mr. JENNER. She adjusted easily?
Mrs. MURRET. She knew she had to do something about these things; that
she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things
that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was
hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support
three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.
Mr. JENNER. What makes you say that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I
mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or
not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had
been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run
out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I
don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because
her children didn't help her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married,
she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little
friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about
that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides
to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells
you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect
for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard
time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little
demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper
respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I
would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's
nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them
that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother,
and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that
she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was,
but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was
so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell
me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like
that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing,
but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think
that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she
was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or
called me--I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would
help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by
train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.
Mr. JENNER. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee
did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he
said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to
anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to
strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by
himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.
Mr. JENNER. For how long?
Mrs. MURRET. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her
feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we
tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get
out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just
rather stay in the house and read or something.
Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though
I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She
was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and
things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out
before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the
back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks
and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other
children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out,
so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go
right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically
pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to
stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself,
but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his
way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do
about it.
We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so
finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to
be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him.
Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It
was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone
in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other
children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down
and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET. Because I saw the letter.
Mr. JENNER. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.
Mr. JENNER. You saw the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at
your home, did he?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody
around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out
for him.
Mr. JENNER. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off
in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. That was in your home at 757 French Street?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French
Street.
Mr. JENNER. How was that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the
numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it
to the 700 block.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was
looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service,
and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before
Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right
over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert
left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I would say about a week.
Mr. JENNER. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee doing during that time?
Mrs. MURRET. He was going to school.
Mr. JENNER. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home
and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard
Junior High.
Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in January 1954?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth
or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New
Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that
from this lady who was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER. Was that Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania,
didn't she?
Mrs. MURRET. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different
places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was
at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St.
Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February
1955.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle
Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126
Exchange Place in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that 1954 or 1955?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the
right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring
of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a
very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family
home--Myrtle--and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments
for tenants.
Mr. JENNER. How long did they stay at your house?
Mrs. MURRET. At my house?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most,
somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your
house into this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know
which, to be truthful with you.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of
weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him
from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been
about 3 years older; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York,
and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she
enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my
home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after
you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and
she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure,
that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at
the school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are
referring to now with relation to that school.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know
anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me,
or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him
"Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into
the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't
know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they
sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he
could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get
a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat,
like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end
of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of
course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of
that. He didn't say anything to me about that.
Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there
were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said,
"Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and
ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the
school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill
myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to
have started any of that at that time.
Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low
standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children
went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad
bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights
and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything,
so he got in several scrapes like that.
Mr. JENNER. These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I
observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I
think.
Mr. JENNER. Your children were all entered in school, were they?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did they study pretty hard?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well
in school, or what was your feeling along that line?
Mrs. MURRET. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the
time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to
have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and
when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning
of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything
wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school,
because I have had children of my own going to school and they always
done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school,
but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school.
Mr. JENNER. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever
discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about
the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was
working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get
him out.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that
time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at
your place?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and
he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all
that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work
for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to
building, delivering messages and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. That was in 1955, would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. When he was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they
were living in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he
liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a
Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always
cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he
would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to
rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the
greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in
City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go
up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would
have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him
more money so that he could keep his bike another hour.
Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who
lives in Beaumont----
Mr. JENNER. Beaumont, Tex.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I
can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store
and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he
would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs,
and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing
this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and
another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the
other children." So that was that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he wear this clothing to school?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing
this clothing for him?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very
independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about
something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and
that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so
independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need
somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that
independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because
you do need somebody, sometime you will."
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that a little of this independence might have
rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your
sister?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't
think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from
her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and
if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do
sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did
things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for
anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was
receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy
about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in
words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as
relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family.
Mr. JENNER. In the Oswald family, do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were
the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took
care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she
gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my
own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John
was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John
Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along
with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to
do all I could to help her.
Mr. JENNER. Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it
before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see his handwriting often?
Mrs. MURRET. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School,
with his homework.
Mr. JENNER. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540
before you, do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. MURRET. Wait till I get my glasses.
Mr. JENNER. All right; take your time.
Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like,
something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I
couldn't say for sure--I couldn't swear that that was his writing.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't swear that he wrote this?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I
knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for
his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't
write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys.
You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he
don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret.
Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the
bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic
copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his
hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police,
or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he
stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going,
but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field----
Mr. JENNER. Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when
he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he
was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to
lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the
customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that,
and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. After he defected to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be
stationed over there, you can come over weekends."
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he was going to be stationed there?
Mrs. MURRET. At Keesler Field?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he was going to be.
Mr. JENNER. And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he
never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never
heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all.
I didn't know he went until after he went.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you
that he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had
this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that was before he defected; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of
the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he
didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her
$10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans,
so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by
him from letter that he was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. So she told you that; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. She told me; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in
the New Orleans papers?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth,
over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. There might have been.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at least it didn't come to your attention?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they had anything here about that at all,
but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper.
Mr. JENNER. Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she came down here.
Mr. JENNER. To New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you all about it?
Mrs. MURRET. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She
didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like
that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go,
I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she
had brought him up in?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern
that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one
person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way,
but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what
really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running
through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how
she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the
things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean
that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running
through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you
don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't
satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how
it was over there, I guess; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with him about it?
Mrs. MURRET. After he came back?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once
in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss
it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he
was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's?
Mrs. MURRET. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working
there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet;
no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't
even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to
the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he
didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well,
Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we
had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from
Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when
you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it
for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he
got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed
that with us as to why that was, and we never found out.
Mr. JENNER. He never discussed that with you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did
actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was
the type of boy who was too good an athlete.
Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that
sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they
didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I
guess he just left. I don't know that though.
Mr. JENNER. You think that's what happened to Lee, do you?
Mrs. MURRET. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't
know though.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a competitive person?
Mrs. MURRET. Was he what?
Mr. JENNER. Was he competitive?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only
remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to
learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't
learning anything, and it was just a waste of time.
I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of
time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because
you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him,
"You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of
yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's
one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about.
She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything.
Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but
he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to
school, that he knew all the subjects.
Mr. JENNER. Did your children discuss Lee in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET. Did they discuss Lee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. What did your children think of Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted
like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I
didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen
to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the
same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him,
because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a
lot, though. They have always loved him.
Mr. JENNER. Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was that in the fall of 1956?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't
know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they
left.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that
they were about to move to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came
in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to
stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said
New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so
I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In
fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had
a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that
we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already
packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the
way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your
machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the
place was locked up, and we never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER. This was a portable electric sewing machine?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come
and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something
like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I
said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get
the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I
think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her
clothing or not; but she left.
Mr. JENNER. And where was this she called you from, do you know?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go right over there to get the machine?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked
up.
Mr. JENNER. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after
Robert got out of the service?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live
here and work and help support the family.
Mr. JENNER. But he didn't like New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and
he wanted to move over there.
Mr. JENNER. He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And so they moved to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and shortly after that--I forget when--but Robert
married, and I didn't even know he was married.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know that?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of boy was Robert?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away,
I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well
either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one
another as brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mrs. MURRET. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from
real small children, you would think that they would love one another
as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would
accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being
halfbrothers or stepbrothers.
Mr. JENNER. Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that
your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic
name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him,
contributed to that feeling between the two boys?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she
married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I
don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me,
that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father,
and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father
contribute to him."
Mr. JENNER. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were
under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in
the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his
brother; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't
too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much
as he did Robert. That's just what I think.
Mr. JENNER. How did John and Robert get along?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at
that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were
little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I
had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were
saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any
girls in this family."
Mr. JENNER. Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; but they did say, "It had better not be a girl."
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the
Marines?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not until he came in that Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on
a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already touched on some information
regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you
about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because
we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the
telephone book over there and found her number.
Mr. JENNER. What is your son-in-law's name?
Mrs. MURRET. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said
that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I
think, or her brother--I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a
box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and
then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as
I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this
hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home.
It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he
only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it
was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left,
and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to
New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that
maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that
she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he contact you at all?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until
the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I
think, from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. She called you and told you about that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he
didn't write you, did he?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from him; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was
going to be stationed at Keesler Field.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in
the Marines?
Mrs. MURRET. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up
and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you
think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big
Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom
House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might
like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in
New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think
he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't
know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the
induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother
would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited
and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to
join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you
will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign
for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told
her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around
for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign
an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that
he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office
with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office--he has expired since
then--and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with
him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him
go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then
the next step was that when he got over to the place--I don't know
whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his
suitcase--but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign
up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that.
Mr. JENNER. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't
admit him on the affidavit?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he
said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of
the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there
and converse with him about different things in the service and so
forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything
like that, though.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't
seem to have worked much after school.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he
did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boys work after school when they did go to school?
Mrs. MURRET. My boys?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. My boys--let's see. They always went to school, and during
vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. That's what I mean.
Mrs. MURRET. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900
worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed
him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to
school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass
out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He
used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given
a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he
helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last
year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and
she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her
way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in
order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had
to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't
learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think
his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because
she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said
he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time,
and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed,
and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends
because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he
liked to do.
Mr. JENNER. Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to
do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out
on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those
things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk
around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you
very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not
even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's
what he liked.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I
asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so
forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But
I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl
all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I
think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in
the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't
stay in there too long, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. There could be.
Mr. JENNER. Or the Hotel Liberty?
Mrs. MURRET. There might be; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite
had on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there.
Mr. JENNER. On Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of
people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and
everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she
had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you
know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you
know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how
nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like
to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and
because of that reason rents are pretty high.
Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom,
and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a
very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom,
and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the
apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and
everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the
block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in
that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live
that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she
told me.
Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but
I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never
was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go
out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in
and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school
at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and
things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His
character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There
was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some
people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or
something like that, but of course you can't please everybody.
Mr. JENNER. But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him when he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. One time I heard--it was a postcard, and I think it was
the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard,
and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write
to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted
to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and
I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did
write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene----
Mr. JENNER. That's your son Gene?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign
stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took
that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the
children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more.
When I wrote to Lee--I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you
know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up
and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point.
Mr. JENNER. You did write a card, but your children tore it up?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know.
Mr. JENNER. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member
of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I
never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you
saw him, when next did you hear about him?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had
defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and
then they went back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were over here after that.
Mr. JENNER. Did she live in New Orleans for a while then?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. She just came for a visit?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she stay with you?
Mrs. MURRET. She stayed with me; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had discussions during that time about his going to
Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not too much.
Mr. JENNER. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your
impression?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried
to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to
her over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she tried to reach him by telephone?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was
the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk.
He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but
that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her
after she left here. She said she was going to get lost.
Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more
until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee
said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not
thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said,
"Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he
said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you
doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now,"
and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married,
and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he
said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here
trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said,
"Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because
if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements
maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said,
"Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out."
Mr. JENNER. This was in May or April 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Just about a year ago?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it
was.
Mrs. MURRET. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week
after Easter.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be
coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly
dressed.
Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed?
Mrs. MURRET. He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of
pants.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a suit coat on?
Mrs. MURRET. A suit coat?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was anybody other than you home?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He
could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the
bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take
you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your
recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at
your house.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he
said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he
came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only
carrying just a little handbag, they call it.
Mr. JENNER. What color was it?
Mrs. MURRET. Possibly it was brown.
Mr. JENNER. Brown?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of material was it?
Mrs. MURRET. What the handbag was made of?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was just cloth.
Mr. JENNER. A cloth bag?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have it in just one hand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't too large, then?
Mrs. MURRET. No; it was small.
Mr. JENNER. The witness indicates about 14 inches.
Mrs. MURRET. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put
their clothes in, something like that.
Mr. JENNER. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of
that?
Mrs. MURRET. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things
over at the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. MURRET. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET. How do I know that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station
and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he
did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until
he found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That evening?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your automobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other
packages; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you home when they came back from the bus station?
Mrs. MURRET. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage,
if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the
garage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anything in the garage eventually?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary
cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in
anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.
Mr. JENNER. Over the duffelbag?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?
Mrs. MURRET. Quite a few, I think.
Mr. JENNER. More than two duffelbags?
Mrs. MURRET. I could be wrong, but I think there were more.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and
that there could have been more than two?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby
clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the
world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but
he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus
station though.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long packages with him?
Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long
packages?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes
that a person would pack things in?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long flat package with him?
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan
wrapping paper?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of
things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in
such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing
machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged
any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of
my business.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all?
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any like that; no.
Mr. JENNER. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and
hard?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There
were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do
know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled
out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these
leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything
like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear
in cold weather.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer
and sickle or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that
Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't
look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were
all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said
no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He
said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and
pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.
Mr. JENNER. You say he had no suit coat?
Mrs. MURRET. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him
a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get them out?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put
up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job,
he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and
the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to
describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American
housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any
other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper
so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so
every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for
a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he
wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper
anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for
supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down
about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then
he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the
house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we
were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything
about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I
don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one
time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know
them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives."
He said, "You are the only one I know."
Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday.
Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to
the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of
the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he
went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it,
and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't
get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the
family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway,
Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know
where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone
to letter.
Mr. JENNER. To letter?
Mrs. MURRET. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and
the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this
job.
First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and
tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't
letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I
didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get
the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know
how to do that."
So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and
he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds
in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right
Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the
wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always
carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a
certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always
take this map and mark the route out himself.
So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the
brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was
dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave
him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was
a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever
went back to see her.
So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again,
and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the
Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and
he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck,
and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"
Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he
said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much,
but I will get along on it."
I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do
anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to
go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or
whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I
don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know
everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more.
I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was
smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along
these lines that he really believed he was that smart?
Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't
think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't
think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I
guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We
didn't even know when he left this job.
Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you,
did he read while he was home at night?
Mrs. MURRET. Did he read?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books?
Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave
early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to
fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want
anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always
eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He
would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job,
and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while
and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same
pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley
Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his
life in Russia, and how he felt about it?
Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He
said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they
all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay
overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with
clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was
over there.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did
work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but
then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work
there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in
Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the
equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were
not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it.
We didn't talk about it too much.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley
Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said
you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only
talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever
tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked
him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He
never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say
was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all
he would say.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian
government?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things
were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch
a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that
he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife
and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department
loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and
he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer
in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he
worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much
money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they
didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on
the job.
Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this
photographer?
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either
Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job
all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a
third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he
came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he
would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that
time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he
called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and
everything, because they got here so quick.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that?
Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man
speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over
in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he
didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got
the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and
look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very
first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment,"
and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me
about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was
going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would
like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine
wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I
wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in
mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him,
"If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because
it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's
what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I
said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a
while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----"
Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to
the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she
didn't recognize Lee.
Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked
Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment
for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said,
"Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and
I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said
to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am
Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have
recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she
told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she
knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of
course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card
party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that
time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee
that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said,
"Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle
says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and
then she decided to help him find an apartment.
She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices
are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will
just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got
in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on
a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired
about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was
very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly
wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a
bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and
kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to
Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee
said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't
like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get
this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take
it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway,
after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming
in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the
impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to
come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with
a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that
Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle
had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite
satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over
there, he didn't like it?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans
after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he
got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.
Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday?
Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he
moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he
moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and
Monday was the ninth.
Mrs. MURRET. Of May?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see.
The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment,
the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that
Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday,
and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that
time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to
the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that?
Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your
garage?
Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he
had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought
that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the
garage?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when
he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all
anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the
apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he
loaded the car.
Mr. JENNER. Your car?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He
had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that
first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside,
and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something
else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No
woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your
husband?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee
up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it
was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after
they got everything out of the car, we just left.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing
them into the apartment?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment,
and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage?
Mrs. MURRET. Luggage?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because
he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just
had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of
socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the
garage; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the
garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two
suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather
than square?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches
long, or something like that.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I
noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the
garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those
suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and
there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.
Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know?
Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three?
Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown
butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though,
when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting?
Mrs. MURRET. My boys?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little
duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your
house?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle.
It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think,
if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once,
almost shot his hand off.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong
package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in
there?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look
like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock
looked like, and so forth?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina
and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about
that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the
apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back
later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and
buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh,
don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that
in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the
house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and
they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two
children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready
to go out.
Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes.
Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an
appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I
forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and
the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the
kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.
Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee
said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready
to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't
know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's
the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with
him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her
car.
Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did
you see Mrs. Paine any more?
Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.
Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to
come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband
to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one
Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came
over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to
come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time,
because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty
long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of
Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it
must be 50 blocks.
Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their
house?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we
didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and
everything that belonged to the baby with them.
Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the
baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw
anyone before in her life.
Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have
grandchildren?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this
baby?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she
didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things
in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends
with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look
at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee
decided that they would go out.
I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my
daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to
go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.
Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside?
Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks
from where I live.
Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half?
Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got
a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee
left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there?
Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car,
operating an automobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an
automobile, though?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New
York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I
never knew him to drive.
Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach,
and they went crabbing; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way
back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said,
"Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like
a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come
from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike.
They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him
that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending
$1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the
French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't
see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any
crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed
the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it
was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some
crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back
home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so
forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the
baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove
them home, and that was it.
When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come
over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get
them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I
don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he
must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me.
Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need
another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be
the only excuse he gave for losing a job.
Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you?
Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked
me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out
looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every
afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the
message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.
Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that State?
Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from
Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of
those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State
employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work,
so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't
think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after
that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.
Mr. JENNER. A what?
Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went
down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job,
and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to
drive.
Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job.
Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would
have to drive a truck.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found
any other job after that here.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee
plant?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this
job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or
maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at
the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you
need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I
thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead
and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the
type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited
to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because
it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but
he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part
of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a
week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't
want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if
there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would
said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a
spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was
that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says
we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must
have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I
mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went
home with the spread after all.
Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had
called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private
agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and
I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but
I wouldn't remember that now.
Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that?
Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going
on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went
to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.
Mr. JENNER. To visit your son?
Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time?
Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in
between that time.
Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job?
Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you
recall?
Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to
me about that.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for
a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.
Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she
adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they
were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't
seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came
over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had
come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock
that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and
not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would
understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted
to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the
recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to
pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English,
and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants,
but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain
things.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about
the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina
like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself,"
so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I
like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did
think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned
to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and
we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't
you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in
August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that
time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation.
They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see
me, which I thought was very nice.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and
throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All
right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to
be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he
went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That
was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following
Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted
to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he
missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said,
"Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there
are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be
all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up,
and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children
of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce
was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee
called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital,
and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something,
the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring
some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to."
She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each
time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I
said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?"
and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she
asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She
was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man
told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because
she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your
cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole
him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans
a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her
the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El
Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I
am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't
know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he
was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like
that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and
everything."
This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry
these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent
yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But
you can't carry signs like that in the business district."
The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce
thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital.
She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when
we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again,
and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted
to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the
money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she
had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money,
and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."
Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You
see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail,
so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I
don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you
have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get
me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this
thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he
said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go
out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and
you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce
said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep
my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of
the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me
what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like
to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said
she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we
decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told
us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and
everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in
jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and
said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.
Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret
came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe
it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He
went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee
in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected
with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee
said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you
show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry,
I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find
yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so
forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe
it was.
Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come
over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but
suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because
I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came
on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked
them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had
had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them
I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some
coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate
the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten
anything, because they ate up all the rolls.
I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers.
John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take
them home, and John brought them home.
Mr. JENNER. In his car?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite
a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English
language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad
that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the
time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't
know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the
English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you
right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't
care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me."
He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose
my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English
language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.
I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do
you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right
then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that
question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John
brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove
them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married
in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home
where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her
house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed
them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them
any more.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone,
postcard, or otherwise?
Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that,
two men came to the house from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few
days after Labor Day, I think.
Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and
I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first,
but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?"
and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple
ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and
I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know
where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of
Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block,"
and then they told me who they were.
Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me
that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a
lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the
same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to
Texas."
Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them.
I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over
something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs.
Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was
going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't
say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or
anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through
here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane
professor.
Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a
language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he
had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they
either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't
get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I
understand it.
Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides?
Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew
the professor and all that.
Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over
there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. In Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from
Lee Oswald and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date.
Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around
there?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son
Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and
he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had
graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there
for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany
and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to
law school.
Mr. JENNER. At Loyola?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.
Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when
I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very
much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and
bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up
to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was
with us, and also her two children.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left
there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a
lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?
Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. What school is that?
Mr. JENNER. At Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study.
Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina
over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so
many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences
in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over
there about his speaking, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia
is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't
think.
Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son?
Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was.
Mr. JENNER. By letter?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we
would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or
anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.
Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important
and he gets permission?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.
Mr. JENNER. But he may write you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go
up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things
like that. We are allowed to do that.
Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it.
Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they
mind if you call him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays
or something we can do it.
Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over
there?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just
what happened?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in
the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and
I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so
uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the
flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't
want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from
anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and
that night we were going to meet.
Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband?
Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce.
Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And her two children?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill.
Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all
the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth.
Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real
nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself
all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very
attentive too to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Always?
Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around
her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very
attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car
door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out
for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say
that for him.
Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along
very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans.
They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and
some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang
out of doing things like that.
Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we
could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment
before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She
said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at
Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told
him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your
presence?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this
stuff was stored?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it
might contain a rifle?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there.
Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun
at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that
stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these
boots and this hat.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend.
Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night?
Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back
the next afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that
your understanding?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time
they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got
a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene
told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he
spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice
conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel,
and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what
he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I
don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked
for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I
asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."
Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to
talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map
out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say,
so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I
give talks all the time."
Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said,
"I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she
would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes,
she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in
Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.
Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much."
Mr. JENNER. Marina said that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me;
we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would
become a Catholic."
Mr. JENNER. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she
not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know,
about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the
baby to be baptized.
Mr. JENNER. Who didn't?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the
orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the
Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the
Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's
something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church.
Mr. JENNER. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the
baby been baptized before that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know
which.
Mr. JENNER. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between
Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things,
like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give
me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said,
"Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he
really meant that the way it sounded.
Mr. JENNER. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of
speech?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything
about it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that Lee was arrogant?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it
depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in
the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike
him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be
arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all
depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man
who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that
he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought
he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried
himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the
time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's
mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he
couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay
any attention to that.
Mr. JENNER. What was there about his mouth that you noticed
particularly?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different
from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like
he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the
way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time
he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him
look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused
to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was,
and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or
something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid
that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have
anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will
be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it.
But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot
of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard
School indicating--either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his
address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before
they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs.
Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700
block, from Canal Boulevard----
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that
Lee gave your home address as his address?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We
had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will,
how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or
Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which
was your address?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from
New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and
that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't
have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't
given them my address and given some other address in another district,
he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to
Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she
said she would like to have him enrolled there.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York
with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his
conduct generally, as you recall it?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child,
I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the
afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper
and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He
never really did talk unless you said something to him.
Mr. JENNER. The same old pattern, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to
talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others
just aren't. You run across that every day.
Mr. JENNER. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or
a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some
activity of the Civil Air Patrol?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about that other than my sister
Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and
that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have
a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were
living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange--whatever that is, at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange Place?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and
tie on one occasion?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was
in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think
Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such
a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee,
here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a
nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good
when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and
the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his
picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that
same shirt and tie on.
Mr. JENNER. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had
given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to
John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt
sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good
that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said,
"Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car,"
and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something,
but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know
how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know
how to drive.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you said during the course of this discussion
that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate
with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his
left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he
did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They eat with either hand, don't they?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have
started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they
grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who
never use their right hand, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy
though, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee write left handed?
Mrs. MURRET. When?
Mr. JENNER. After he reached, say, high school age?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. You never noticed it one way or the other?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they
came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?
Mrs. MURRET. I never noticed really.
Mr. JENNER. Your boys are all right handed, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go
out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of
your boys, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it
belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and
the Cuban boy?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he called.
Mr. JENNER. Who, Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the
radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to
come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but
then we turned it on and did hear some of it.
Mr. JENNER. You heard some of it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political
views?
Mrs. MURRET. Not in my home.
Mr. JENNER. And not with you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family.
Mrs. JENNER. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity
was concerned, his coordination?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he
wasn't prepared to do anything in life.
Mr. JENNER. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an
automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what
John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too
long, and then they came back.
Mr. JENNER. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around.
Mr. JENNER. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he
say anything either way as to that?
Mrs. MURRET. You mean on that day?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, he couldn't drive?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear
with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce,
and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway,
Beaumont, Tex., is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has
an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene,
and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and
who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that?
Mrs. MURRET. Society of Jesus.
Mr. JENNER. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a fine student?
Mrs. MURRET. He certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. And he is unmarried?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit.
Mr. JENNER. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. She's unmarried?
Mrs. MURRET. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get
married.
Mr. JENNER. She doesn't want to get married?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles
didn't see Lee at all.
Mr. JENNER. Charles is your dentist son?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have
told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce--they did, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And of course your husband?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs.
Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. Just that morning when we went there.
Mr. JENNER. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and
Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. MURRET. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or
Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy
was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with
her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or
never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.
Mr. JENNER. Liked President Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for
example?
Mrs. MURRET. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I
read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes
there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of
Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said
she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given
her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see
nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to
smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My
boys don't smoke.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house
around here?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian
literature that you know of?
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina
and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but
that's about all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack
Ruby, or Rubenstein?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. No one else ever discussed him in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the
end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought
out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it,
anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission
in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving
the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't
think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to
Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the
hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell
you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will
say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with
a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was
doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether
it was or not is something else, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald
during his lifetime?
Mrs. MURRET. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what
baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he
could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.
Mr. JENNER. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits
of temper, that you thought were unusual?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things
that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think
he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so
quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless
you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina.
Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always
treated her like a gentleman at our house.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help.
This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired.
There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege
of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also
may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe
the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to
read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the
U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and
signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it.
Mr. JENNER. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition
then?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret.
TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET
The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr.
Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to
take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of
Congress number 137.
I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would
be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I
understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive
order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint
Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the
Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that
correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this
hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret
Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be
3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume
that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to
testify?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is
to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that
you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any
knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New
Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those
questions, would you please state your full name for the record?
Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Miss MURRET. 757 French.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret?
Miss MURRET. New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years
in St. Louis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your
educational background?
Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh
High School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton
Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California,
the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University----
Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you
have mentioned?
Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational
courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.
Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.?
Miss MURRET. Tulane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Miss MURRET. Fortier?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Miss MURRET. Fortier.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there?
Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid
the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't
pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and
he still owes me for December.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University
of New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one
across the river. He had two, one on this side, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the
one across the river is still operating.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one----
Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we----
Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still
operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and
started teaching at Fortier?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents?
Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation?
Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under
the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or
how they operate, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works?
Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no
business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how
that works.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is----
Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she
not----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have
other brothers and sisters?
Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died
when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her
mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was
very young, and I don't remember him at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl?
Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when----
Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33.
Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any
idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?
Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers.
Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is
that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four
girls and two boys?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and
both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all
dead.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name?
Miss MURRET. Mancy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name?
Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last
name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name?
Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a
moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other
daughter because her husband is dead.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in----
Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee
she goes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes
over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does
she have?
Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?
Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the
other one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living?
Miss MURRET. Yes; two.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name?
Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls?
Miss MURRET. Two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now?
Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but
I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he
lives.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one?
Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four
children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls?
Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living?
Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am
not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.
Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?
Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they
live?
Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and
Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is
just a nickname, and then Jackie.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know,
either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters
live in the same State, and one in the other.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names?
Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. She is older?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in
the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what?
Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name?
Miss MURRET. O'Brien.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and
their names were what?
Miss MURRET. One was John.
Mr. LIEBELER. John?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the other?
Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know?
Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919,
during World War I.
Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them?
Miss MURRET. No; there were none.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has
three sons?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite
Oswald over the years?
Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on
the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come
back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved
back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days
or so----
Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when?
Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she
was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were
on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her
occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she
moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.
Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New
Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived
on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange
Alley?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had
been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on
Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard
from them when she was somewhere else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when
you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him
occasionally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would
meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I
don't think he was over very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out
of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school
when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really
know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it
wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell
us?
Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time
that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very
reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself.
His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests
with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature,
and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I
don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you
learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?
Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a
fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told
me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from
the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it
was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't
see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the
streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well,
when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these
boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front
teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.
Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if
they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned
around, they hit him. It was just actually that--even though he was
in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't
think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own
business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my
mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that
it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't
have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him
because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which
was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various
difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to
the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it,
interested in that sort of thing?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told
me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy,
or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and
said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said,
actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she
remembered those particular incidents.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this
after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his
former----
Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in
common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long
time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before
also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me
that that was the reason for not associating with the other students,
and that they made fun of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students
from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station
and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when
he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent
and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might
expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that
opinion?
Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago--but he was
very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but
he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and,
of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I
don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children
never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely
well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say
that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I
know, he never was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during
the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that
difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and
being well mannered?
Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some
people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I
suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was
very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always
had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was
very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child.
He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him,
everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a
little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody
stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very
cute.
But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about
him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was
saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and,
well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of
those students, I should say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed
from his associates or fellow students at that time?
Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because--well, I think he
wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it
could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to
play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this
is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether
my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very
appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't
do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean
he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but
I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I
guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I
mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these
former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been
involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what
station that program was on?
Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and
photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking
the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person
my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so
everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the
other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all
that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students?
Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he
said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others?
Miss MURRET. Any other people?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program?
Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group
of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't
like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one
who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very
friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very
interested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program
run by a particular reporter or commentator?
Miss MURRET. A reporter.
Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon?
Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at
WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when
these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?
Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I
believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed
information.
Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally?
Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off
guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him
if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that
he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they
wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave,
which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and,
of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he
went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and
it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all
the comments by the neighbors.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald?
Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed
there a few days when he came in.
Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a
young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about
11 or 12 years old at that time?
Miss MURRET. Just about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child
other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very
pretty child, and that he was adorable----
Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well,
he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling
child.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems?
Miss MURRET. No; he was darling.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all?
Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if
he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. He was
just a very pleasant child.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with
you at that time? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him.
Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was
born?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that
time?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores,
and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was
Jean's Hosiery Shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after
that? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if
that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or what?
Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an
orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to
figure out whether he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not?
Miss MURRET. No; I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went
back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your
recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright
young boy? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the
background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years
old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr.
Ekdahl; is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. I met him once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with
Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. My circumstances?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances?
Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and
my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to
military school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married?
Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got
married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do
know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two
boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I
remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if
I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in
uniform.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which
Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this
relationship?
Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that
actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man,
and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said,
"Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was
quite hesitant about it, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father,
she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage?
Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said,
that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very
difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite
saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she
got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if
she got pregnant.
So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she
did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he
would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway,
he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was
true. And he definitely did not want any children.
So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want
her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant,
so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the
other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always
threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that
when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she
left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that
was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being
like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to
him or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your
mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to
have any children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met
Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or
afterwards?
Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?
Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?
Miss MURRET. I saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?
Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later,
and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a
young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this
time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the
next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange
Alley?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would
have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year
old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you
have when you met him again?
Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he
was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other
children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?
Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just
had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like
that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know,
but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong
thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the
circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into
trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way
around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work,
and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen
to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other
boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying
if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out
that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would
never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified
this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange
Alley, before she went to Texas?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her?
Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and
feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?
Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had
a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you
have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately.
But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I
mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and
she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a
few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how
they--I mean they will slit one another's throats.
Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks?
Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't
engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments
over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.
Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no----
Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald
came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that?
Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after
he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas,
isn't that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to
New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of
course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he
could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that
he was married, and that he had a baby.
So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family
she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself,
so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on
Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down,
and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there
during that period?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there?
Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a
week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time?
Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was
working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing
in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to
work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really
had was on religion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week?
Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say?
Miss MURRET. He just listened.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?
Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist
because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary?
Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and
so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off
because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he
said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he
didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then
he indicated that he had his own way?
Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this
discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that
someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject
like that, and then not really respond to it?
Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with
you over your----
Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations
that you might have had?
Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk
with him, and that was the first day that he came--I believe it was.
After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all
day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to
know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his
relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him
about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what
descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close
to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or----
Miss MURRET. My mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him?
Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think
most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I
believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name?
Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother
would know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's?
Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but
they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still
living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of
his father. And then he went to visit the grave.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think
he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the
bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture
of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved
over to the apartment on Magazine Street?
Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so----
Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and
went to the other aunt?
Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt?
Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture?
Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job?
Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here.
I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find
one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you----
Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a
job?
Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she
thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my
mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet
Union, did you not?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia?
Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few
photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he
said about the family, that people were very family conscious----
Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience
where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who
had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do
here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but
what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was
very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he
said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and
that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place?
Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he
left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and
I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just
before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that
she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know
where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother
didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing
in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife
told me at that time----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time?
Miss MURRET. In Japan.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan?
Miss MURRET. I taught school over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?
Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring
the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's
privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I
know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over
the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.
Mr. LIEBELER. John was?
Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was
in Stars and Stripes.
Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why
he went?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia
other than what you have already told us?
Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of
this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought
that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in
bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want
to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So,
anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person
because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression
on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs,
that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance,
and he worked in the factory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory?
Miss MURRET. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the
Soviet Union?
Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was
going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend
the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on
the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language?
Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone
to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?
Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of
training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had
gotten out, in the first place.
Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean?
Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he
a Russian officer? Anyway----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father----
Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English,
so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he
had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just
to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in
the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think
it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the
Intelligence Service in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle?
Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get
out. So, that I couldn't figure out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the
only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time
getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until
everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had
a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her
papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't
satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out.
But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy
obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do,
they would be trailing him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this?
Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it,
naturally.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it?
Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was
difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to
anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could
just forget about that because he might really have realized that he
made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try
to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking
that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back
here, you would do everything you could to help him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about
getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he
distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by
the two authorities?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that
he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans
gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him
anytime.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had
given him the money? Did he tell you that?
Miss MURRET. He told my mother that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he
had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more
details, or did your mother repeat them to you?
Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his
citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and
that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he
couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation
with Lee about it before the assassination?
Miss MURRET. About what?
Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and
these difficulties?
Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother
showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the
passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to
obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from
to return to the United States?
Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could
get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military,
and an uncle--I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he
was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then
that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't
really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you
don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the
Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really
realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a
purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the
Soviet Union?
Miss MURRET. At first; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----
Miss MURRET. The first reaction.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----
Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out.
Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first,
after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?
Miss MURRET. After he came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he
came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?
Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all?
Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't
even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't
know--probably a year."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody
else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a
Russian agent?
Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought,
well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you
can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the
American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the
case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was
definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly
throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it
for the reasons you state?
Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get
out?
Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of
the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with
which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or
have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question
that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you
dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or
the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that
they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It did not?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented
an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment?
Miss MURRET. He told me about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally?
Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I
think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and
said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina
would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high
ceilings. But he liked it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time?
Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought
her----
Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name?
Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time?
Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced
herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and
that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had
referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was
very nice to meet her.
Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved
out, or after he moved out?
Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came
to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they
wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I
don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went
from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?
Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was
petrified----
Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about?
Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language
barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people
there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or
probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled
child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever
came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and
I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in
the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came
into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs.
Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time?
Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out----
Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to
meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina?
Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said
anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English;
is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go?
Miss MURRET. It was exasperating.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English?
Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but
still there is a lot she doesn't understand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient
in the English language?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her
at all in English?
Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat
something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and
small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when
they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than
that, she----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had
been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a
professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman?
Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they
telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for
an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going
that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had
one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs.
Paine's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the----
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember?
Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret
Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what?
Miss MURRET. Languages.
Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian?
Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some
other language. He just teaches, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived?
Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a
daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?
Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time
magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those
ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in
the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of
Mrs. Paine in any way?
Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking
people, and she spoke Russian herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed
this with you about the professor?
Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that
we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find,
if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think
that that would be too difficult to find.
Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on
Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?
Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him
home once or twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment?
Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it?
Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never
did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was
arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon
and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked
them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came,
they took the bus, and we always took them home.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that?
Miss MURRET. On Magazine?
Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes?
Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a
half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't
know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July
until September.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time
you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in
September?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What
did you do?
Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina
wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my
mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they
were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted,
so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or
4 they came over in the bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus?
Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not?
Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New
Orleans during July or August of 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition?
Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my
house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that?
Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing,
of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with
Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and
I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke,
and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina
told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said,
"Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying
that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you
spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was
all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You
spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of
your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French
Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike,
you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that
happened on that day that was worthy of any note?
Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down----
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was?
Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only
an hour and a half.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina?
Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't
really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you
know, word for word.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the
first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or----
Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said,
I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't
remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted
to----
Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at
your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on
this expedition?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got
along with each other?
Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he
first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the
assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running
back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some
statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You
don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications
they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to
love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very
well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down,
he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in
and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just
seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that
my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that
probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to
be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute
couple.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as
peculiar or out of the ordinary?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties
of any kind while they were here?
Miss MURRET. Only what I read.
Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to
smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?
Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't
want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I
couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean
she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did
eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know,
"Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my
mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she
didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she
had smoked before that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment
or----
Miss MURRET. She didn't like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment?
Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand----
Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said
that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In
fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low
ceilings.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one
occasion, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?
Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very
nice for the money, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it?
Miss MURRET. Sixty-five.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in?
Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't
think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished.
They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all
refinished, and the walls newly painted.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with
Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?
Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance
at all, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?
Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that
was before or if it was on that program, where he said something
complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.
Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to?
Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was
interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the
assassination that they reran that.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program?
Miss MURRET. Yes; television.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said
something complimentary about Kennedy on that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of
President Kennedy?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the
Negro?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a
point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some
Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it
was just a rebellious kind of thing?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars
were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother
telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know,
defiantly--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and
August of 1963, and where were you?
Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and
Panama.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel?
Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon?
Miss MURRET. No; public transportation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the
assassination?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either
planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to
Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any
connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or
subsequently?
Miss MURRET. On this trip, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a
tourist operation?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you
learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail
during the summer?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?
Miss MURRET. My family.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you?
Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba
pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get
him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and
so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not
supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they
decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that,
and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if
it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see
her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left
and was distributing the pamphlets.
So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come
and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two
children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take
care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she
said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't
there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down
to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my
mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the
station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to
tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said,
not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is
not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to
get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if
they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and
he had him paroled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who
is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just
a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was
just a personal favor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this
episode when you saw him on Labor Day?
Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?
Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took
him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an
hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And
whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take
his car and go by himself.
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?
Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and
that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able
to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think
it was in the park.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up
Marina and take her back to Texas?
Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15
minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee
Co. sometime during the summer?
Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back
or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he
lose it?
Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.
Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there,
13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.
Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New
Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost
the job and was unemployed?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that
was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you
mentioned that you were in Japan?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did
you go, and what did you do?
Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and
went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand,
Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and
straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through,
Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?
Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher?
Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or----
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification
problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?
Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching
science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2
years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?
Miss MURRET. At Juno.
Mr. LIEBELER. In school?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in
connection with it?
Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I
was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me
that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over
back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part,
where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that
they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that
time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that
was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier,
and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee
because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they
thought was a foreigner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Slightly!
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised?
Miss MURRET. Of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it?
Miss MURRET. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on
your knowledge of him and your association with him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing
like that, or capable of it, either one?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since
this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive
that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it,
have you not?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything?
Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did,
and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said,
because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I
don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by
killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government
just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did
it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the
eyes of the world.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal
motive that he might have had?
Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to----
Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?
Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human
being?
Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way
he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee
company?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know?
Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?
Miss MURRET. He said it was all right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things
or not?
Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really
didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he
said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked
him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't
any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he
had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But
he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was
somebody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?
Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely
intelligent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was?
Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never
discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not
he knew what he was talking about.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very
articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?
Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he
pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced,
and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to
answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like
that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you
had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?
Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I
mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could
have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I
mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me
as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?
Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain
type of person and hated by other types.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and
it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what
you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to
frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people
respond differently to different human beings, since each person is
different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing
many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not
liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him,
but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you
would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.
Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought
that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock
him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was
very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked
petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are
varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this
(assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said
that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college
graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain
manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought
they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a
degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent
than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never
really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was
intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this
other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I
guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances
only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he
didn't like them.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem?
Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a
different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a
rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange
Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you
know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or
anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't
have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like
that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained
himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when
he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading
this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he
was reading anything on Marxism or communism?
Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was
trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read
a novel, and that is how he was trained.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have,
both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee
Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?
Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck
me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I
never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world
that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification,
unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't
think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else
could ever get through to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when
you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with
the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and
had some difficulty out in the street?
Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just
thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is
just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over
Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean,
that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting
his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything----
Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition
that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem
inconsistent to you?
Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out
leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you
hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in
New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came
out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter;
however----
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know?
Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and
they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was
because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister,
well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not
against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I
mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys,
and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on
television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he
was a Marxist.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based
on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you
that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?
Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then,
after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of
course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly
after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded,
that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down
by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such
a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want
him to work for them, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the
assassination?
Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the
assassination?
Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me,
so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical
one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back
on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down
at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I
don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then
being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the
other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the
kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?
Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured
even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such
a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know,
do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so
horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that
big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because,
I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an
individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist
lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just
preach the doctrine.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to
whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very
much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you
believe? Do you believe he did it?
Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been
so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person
supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had
already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more
than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any
kind when he was here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember
about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission
should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.
Miss MURRET. I don't know of any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times?
Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time----
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you
were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?
Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother,
and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother
was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only
time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with
you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add
at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank
you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want
to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and
being as cooperative as you have been.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET
The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly
sworn testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission,
transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which
he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation
of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B.
Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties,
and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony
before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one.
Did she receive those?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. You did read them?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of
making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their
lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives,
with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking
into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if
possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22,
1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that
connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you
know, if anything, in that regard.
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Dutz.
Mr. JENNER. Dutz?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?
Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and
it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just
stuck with me.
Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting?
Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a
career of it, or anything.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you?
Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63.
Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans?
Mr. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family.
Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the
way.
Mr. MURRET. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five?
Mr. MURRET. Five.
Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in
Mobile, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging
over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and
to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college,
and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a
priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.
Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb
Co., is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.
Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball
player, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls.
Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics?
Mr. MURRET. Well, yes.
Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?
Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to
Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife,
did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball
when he was in high school; did you know that?
Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have.
Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who
are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys
are right handed?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.
Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her?
Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.
Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and
Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?
Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance.
Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very
often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.
Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.
Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore?
Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge,
but his firm is in that line of business.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.
Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in
that marriage?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they separated?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we
will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is
that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did.
Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see
them pretty often.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent
marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What business was he in?
Mr. MURRET. The insurance business.
Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman?
Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his
company.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a
couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?
Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee
was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was
right after he died.
Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the
child? Did she go to work, or what?
Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited
anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of
my business, so I didn't ask about that.
Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business?
Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then,
after Mr. Oswald died?
Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I
think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name
of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life.
Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about
a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by
Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in
him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay
attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I
mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from
his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the
opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the
apartment the way I understand it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?
Mr. MURRET. Not too well.
Mr. JENNER. Not too well?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She
always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody
that disagreed with her, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like
that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all
right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families,
to that extent.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did they go?
Mr. MURRET. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. To Texas?
Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.
Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might
even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they
left.
Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of
1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New
Orleans? Do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old?
Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned
to New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right,
or do you know?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those
details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.
Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when
he returned?
Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the
second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain
way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.
Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New
Orleans, didn't they?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that
they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans
on that occasion?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the
wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that
they were in New York; I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that
they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?
Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular,
and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I
don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas,
right?
Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost
contact with them.
Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at
Exchange Alley, didn't they?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved
back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them?
Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and
stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't
remember what month, but it was about that.
Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?
Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for
an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would
like to stay with us until he found something.
Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the
kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then?
Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said,
"Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of
course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance,
I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is
that right?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Not a thing?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion?
Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage?
Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and
bring them to the house?
Mr. MURRET. Did I help him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with
any luggage, not that day.
Mr. JENNER. The next day?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a
couple of days afterward.
Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of
days later, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus
station?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't
remember it?
Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you
don't recall it at this time?
Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at
that time?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or
something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that
sort of thing?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it?
Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get
his luggage?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that.
Mr. JENNER. And you drove?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove.
Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?
Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them.
Mr. JENNER. What else did he have?
Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes?
Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases?
Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?
Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was
contained?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car.
I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two
duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared
at your house after all those years?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but
he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for
his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the
number is concerned, I don't know it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marina?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and
have her come over?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and
I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would
walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.
Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine
arrived?
Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided
to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I
think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.
Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and
everything?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two
children with her.
Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come
and visit you or your family at your home?
Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must
have come in the daytime.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?
Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the
baby, and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. How did this come about?
Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee
was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up
there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made
over to Mobile?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over
there?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over
there.
Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you there?
Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were
on the grounds.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How about Marina?
Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in.
Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he
was making.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?
Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the
trip or the motel or anything.
Mr. JENNER. You paid it?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or
pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be
termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of
Castro, on the mantel there.
Mr. JENNER. On the mantel?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.
Mr. JENNER. Last summer?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In August it was there?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?
Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.
Mr. JENNER. The radio?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going
to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the
radio instead.
Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the
program?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an
automobile?
Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach
him to talk American to his little child.
Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that?
Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why
don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he
didn't give me an answer to that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left
Russia?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his
political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of
Russia?
Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to
Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out
the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back
here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and
these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My
main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't
disrupt anything around there.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?
Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked
America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and
she said, "I like America."
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked
you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its
investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this
matter?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your
deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter
transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What
do you prefer to do in that respect?
Mr. MURRET. I will waive it.
Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your
deposition?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all
the questions I have.
Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get
to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for
anyone, especially for his mother.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that
you had contact with him?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed
to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For
example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like
that. He wanted to do it all himself.
Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right?
Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go
ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him
after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET
The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a
copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have
just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the
Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing
documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically
a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to
testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member.
I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to
waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be
willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with
the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning
concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New
Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of
that, however, will you state your full name for the record.
Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?
Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?
Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them?
Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey
Oswald's cousin?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr.
and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he
not, D-u-t-z?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education
here in the New Orleans school system?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?
Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St.
Louis University and Loyola University.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree?
Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?
Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer
of 1963?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first
time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him,
the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that
you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that
period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.
Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did
have with him. Since I did live in the house and did----
Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street?
Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with
him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular
neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this
particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned,
you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am
not too sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or
can't you----
Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind
of confused now on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and
Oswald was there?
Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is
when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was
here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery
to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But
there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him
other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something,
but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different
environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and
that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that
they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received
better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you
gain an impression about that?
Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I
couldn't, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first
place?
Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of
my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he
just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or
anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia,
other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort
of thing is concerned?
Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had
gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?
Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or
something, you know, similar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of
photography?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in
the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a
photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that
he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United
States?
Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of
him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and
wanted to come back to the States.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his
experience in Russia? Is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French
Street for about a week? Is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know,
how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I
can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might
be.
Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job.
I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that
he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or
some place around there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?
Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding
a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know,
even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding
a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came
back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of
impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the
clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald
apparently rented on Magazine Street?
Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina
and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or
actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that
you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757
French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened
sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't
have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular
night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he
should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him
on getting a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?
Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the
impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive
a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to
start the car and so forth, what to do on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the
car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he
did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.
Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I
guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the
city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where
they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking
places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street
over to the parking lot in the park?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to
back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big
car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell
him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into
the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is
concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is
my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let
him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French
Street?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or
anything. Nobody was in the park.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth.
Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it
was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is
nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could
have handled it, you know, the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?
Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself
without your permission?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was
here in New Orleans, as far as you know?
Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit
priest----
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee
Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along?
Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a
sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?
Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and
Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student,
since that time?
Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all?
Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was
at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And
I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested
in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the
Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what
the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the
food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking
him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the
questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with
my brother, you know, just asking him about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that?
Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?
Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene,
indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?
Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned,
there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought?
Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit
priest?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when
he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for
lunch----
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French
Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald
during the summer of 1963?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house
some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her?
Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and
I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually
couldn't speak to her, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could
speak English?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that
she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination----
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her
use of the English language, did you not?
Mr. MURRET. Definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the
summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the
assassination?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina
together?
Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only
time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with
each other?
Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty
well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget
what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was
in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was
Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like
that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of
sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed,
because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this,
but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I
didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in
their relationship, as far as you could tell?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics----
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character
from your observations and experience with him in 1963?
Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing
anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I
say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just
didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other
words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and
get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit.
Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He
wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he
just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that,
he wouldn't ask for anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of
fellow?
Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you
form an opinion about his intelligence?
Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright
in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the
right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved
particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him.
He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and
his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know,
with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive.
Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate?
Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual
wouldn't use in conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans
Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection
with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair
Play for Cuba Committee literature?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that?
Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time?
Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't
recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail?
Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out
there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not?
Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after
the radio debate?
Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair
Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in
connection with those events?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the
events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?
Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name?
Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live?
Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been
involved in getting Oswald out of jail?
Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail
he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the
time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you
know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in
there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she
heard what he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he
did?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy?
Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a
small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to
hold any conversation with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he
was when he was a kid?
Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he
was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic].
Mr. LIEBELER. What?
Mr. MURRET. Harmful.
Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful?
Mr. MURRET. Harmless.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret?
Mr. MURRET. I am 29.
Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you
say, or how much contact did you have with Robert?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't
here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth
that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your
attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age,
that you can remember, was there?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about
your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of
that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything
of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked
about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't
mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would
like to have you tell us.
Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so
happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know,
for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking,
you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had
located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect
is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in
contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the
next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know,
right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it
was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this
employment agency was looking for him?
Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was
looking for. Other than that, that is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up,
different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he
was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such
that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether
they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes?
Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it
was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went
looking for a job?
Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only
suit he had that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out
at the place on French Street?
Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the
handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag.
Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft----
Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember
or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this
point.
Mr. MURRET. O.K.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.
The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La.,
after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir?
Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista.
Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission,
Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate
Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of
the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts
and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of
November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mr. PIC. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No.
11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the
Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That
Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission,
upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances
surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the
subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack
Ruby.
The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our
duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission
itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody
who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in
any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was
under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew
where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me,
to my surprise, that you were very much alive?
Mr. PIC. I certainly am.
Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the
street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he
recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted
to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the
Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the
Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also
received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution
137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the
assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No.
11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its
powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which
we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of
deposition, as we are doing here today.
Mr. PIC. May I say something?
Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything.
Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January,
that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was
still alive.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance.
Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told
him I didn't; and that was all.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or
misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the
reports of his death were very much exaggerated?
So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured
that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret
Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the
country, are you not?
Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way?
Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or
rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that
right, Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that took place when?
Mr. PIC. 1929.
Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people?
Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907.
Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate.
Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. Three years?
Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually
terminated?
Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you
separated?
Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple
of years; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married
to Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk.
Mr. JENNER. In what company?
Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son.
Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company?
Mr. PIC. I am, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has
changed; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What do you do now?
Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department
of the company.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr.
Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company.
Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is
that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the
company.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who
is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that
right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your
own words what difficulty you had with her.
Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it
come out to four.
Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence?
Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not.
Mr. JENNER. On either side?
Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is
that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?
Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along,
you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing
off; which we did.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be
able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a
nice girl at that time?
Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say
anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We
just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but
there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I
had a rotten disposition, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you?
Mr. PIC. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening
years; haven't you?
Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr.
Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another
"Jr.," or II or III?
Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him.
Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation?
Mr. PIC. After the separation.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the
separation?
Mr. PIC. I was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he
worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate,
and we did.
Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period
of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place?
Mr. PIC. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy?
Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered?
Mr. PIC. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child
support to your son?
Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was
concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the
attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony.
That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much
as I could out of the salary I would make.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to
her?
Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent
monthly checks.
Mr. JENNER. In the same amount?
Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as
alimony?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have
all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.
Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her
the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall?
Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly
or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20
semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.
Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a
month, is that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry?
Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name?
Mr. PIC. Marjorie.
Mr. JENNER. What was her given name?
Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow?
Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had
died.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy?
Mr. PIC. Girl.
Mr. JENNER. What is her name?
Mr. PIC. Martha.
Mr. JENNER. How old is she?
Mr. PIC. 17 this July.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where
Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you?
Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew
where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she
moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex.,
or Brownsville; I just don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they
refresh your recollection.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans?
Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010
Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it.
Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember
that?
Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic
Avenue?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor?
Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas?
Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year?
Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947?
Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue?
Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort
Worth about then.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she
was in Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments
were finally stopped, is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950.
Mr. JENNER. In 1950?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved
around quite a bit, as we know?
Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National
Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our
company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of
red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those
addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where
she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the
check.
Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and
through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew
he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether
he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury
Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he
had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a
dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that,
because I didn't know he was working.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the
Coast Guard?
Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me
it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard.
So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney
and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was
self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried,
it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a
letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as
the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last
check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about
the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.
Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old?
Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old.
Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never
seen him?
Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time.
Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you
haven't seen Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that.
Mr. JENNER. 37 years?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you?
Mr. PIC. No.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did
you?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names
were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination,
which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I
didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and
her son, and all.
I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said,
"Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention
it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy
at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald?
Mr. PIC. No; I never met him.
Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is
that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl?
Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment?
Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had
another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in
the paper.
Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time?
Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess
he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother
never did tell him about his old man.
Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even
know if he knows you are alive, do you?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things?
Mr. PIC. No; you never know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it
has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.
Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr.
Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was
mentioned to me.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if
you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may
waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the
deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now
what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you
want to waive that?
Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I
can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since
the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want
a lot of publicity or anything, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have
testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news
media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and
telling us what you know about it.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO
The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S.
Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness
is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint
resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted
governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will
provide you copies of those documents.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness
is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you
actually received 3 days' notice.
Mr. CARRO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any
question that you will----
Mr. CARRO. There's no problem.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro,
concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you
had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time
he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953-54.
Mr. CARRO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, would you state your full name
for the record.
Mr. CARRO. Well, my name is John Carro.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. CARRO. 56 Lakeside Drive, in Yonkers, State of New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. CARRO. I am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of
New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are an assistant to the mayor?
Mr. CARRO. An assistant to the mayor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. CARRO. I was born in Orocovis, P.R.
Mr. LIEBELER. When?
Mr. CARRO. August 21, 1927.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. CARRO. I came to the United States, I believe it was in 1937--'37.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you came to New York at that time?
Mr. CARRO. New York City; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its
environs?
Mr. CARRO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational
background?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college
and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham
University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in
1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital
corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public
Administration, under the city executive program.
I am an attorney and have a B.S. degree from the University of Fordham.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here
in New York?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice
in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present
time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law
partnership where I practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned
as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court.
Mr. CARRO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New York?
Mr. CARRO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. At what time did you first become so assigned?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic
Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am
trying to recollect--from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October
of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public
office or any other----
Mr. CARRO. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator
for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer
of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was
with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman
and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a
social--I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I
worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council
of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the
"street gang project."
From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against
Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative.
In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a
privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds
and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate
director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the
mayor of the city of New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate
to youth, or more generally----
Mr. CARRO. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with
the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board,
the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I
do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge
of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although
that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own
background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor
on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the
Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the
situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become interested in this? Was this
because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior
to that?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up
in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and
actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went
into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much
better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I
happened to read--I heard that probation work with youth--than welfare
investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work,
and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the
streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court
and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police
department, in the thought that I would like to do that.
I have an interest in young people.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you worked as a probation officer
did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARRO. Yes, I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about
that in your own words?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was
about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before
the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey
Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite
a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school;
he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of
Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out
why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were
fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had
referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had
been asked to come into court with the boy.
My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not
bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy,
and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging
truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy
be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study.
The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to
make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible
determination as to the case.
This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made
a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer
assigned to do the investigation in the case.
Mr. LIEBELER. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald
was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed
in the Youth House, is that correct?
Mr. CARRO. Remanded, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Remanded.
Mr. CARRO. Pending investigation, and for a sociological study while
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he
was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House?
Mr. CARRO. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to
develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy
about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court,
talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole
background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he
was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling
relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this
particular instance it was most important because there was a question
of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the
boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he
lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of
his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get
a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background,
his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court,
get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed
should happen in this instance.
Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation
officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation
officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along
with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what
was going on in Youth House.
In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some
contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact,
and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his
off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is
also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report,
along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits
to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and
put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given
to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a
decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed,
whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy,
whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever
the judge would deem in the particular instance.
Mr. LIEBELER. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was
remanded to Youth House?
Mr. CARRO. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth
House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget
whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York
State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at
least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point
taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more,
and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when I
say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with
his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is.
This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do
anything.
The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was
just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for
a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a
little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he
asked for the study at the Youth House.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who worked with Lee Oswald at the Youth House?
Mr. CARRO. No; I only know that--I did not know the staff by name. I
had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I
know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send
you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report,
but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee
Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that you remember receiving Dr. Hartogs'
report?
Mr. CARRO. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the
doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is
incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr.
Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief
psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that
came to us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed
these children and talked to them?
Mr. CARRO. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or did he just administer the work of other
psychiatrists, do you know?
Mr. CARRO. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the
work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he
saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr.
Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else can you remember of your contacts with Lee
Oswald?
Mr. CARRO. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you
can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did
not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the
first couple of days. It was only almost--I believe it was after the
burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the
day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of
the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that
it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas,
1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that
you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior.
A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you
know who that case is?"
And he said, "That was the case you handled. Don't you remember?"
And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and
what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb
feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with
it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer
one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about
something that I knew that no one else knew, and I went upstairs and I
told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that
had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I
should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington,
so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything."
The story didn't break in the papers--this was on a Tuesday or
Wednesday--until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley,
and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter
showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found
out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called
city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do
with him?"
They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him."
But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was
actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're
not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened.
I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have
done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know,
that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that
this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were
Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who
spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to
relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy
was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic
probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to
begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background.
And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and
he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from
the average boy that I had on probation.
And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable
boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly
bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat
guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was
one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did
not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything;
he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have
liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not--how do you call it--not
odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy
bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is
a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it
mean anything to me.
As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had
any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I
was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty.
Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the
fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched
me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just
seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that
once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms
he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he
would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved.
I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the
treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he--it
seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some
adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he
was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and
not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity
for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in
perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either
receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at
home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution.
Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to
involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the
child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened
herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment
and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to
it, and she resisted this.
We tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to
court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe
it was, and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back
with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision
per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be
brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to
see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms,
and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around
for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about
that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him
psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out
of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the
court's OK.
As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before
Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes,
that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is
when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the
court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for
working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting
us know, and just never came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea
that you were going to take the boy and place him?
Mr. CARRO. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly
were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying,
"Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and
try that."
I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the
boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the
recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also;
something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go
back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know,
marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a summary report in the file that he had been
elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report
to that effect. Do you recall anything about that?
Mr. CARRO. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he
neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never
said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would
pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute
the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper
headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the
American flag."
Mr. LIEBELER. That happens from time to time, I suppose, in children
that age?
Mr. CARRO. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little
disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know,
singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I
recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had the feeling that the
possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment,
which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a
threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that?
Mr. CARRO. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the
boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having
nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as
the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted
that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering
me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to
go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see
the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need
brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of
means in Louisiana when my husband was alive."
Here in New York she just felt that people were--this was just
bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need
to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he
is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him
there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it
is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is
negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself
will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we
needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may
have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her
involved in whatever plan we had for the boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to seek your opinion on that.
Mr. CARRO. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so
self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything,
and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a
boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went
to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the
attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is
getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot
do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her
inability to cope with this situation.
Then this plus, this idea--I don't know if she, in fact, came from
wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she
was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been
downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his
problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they
lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar
with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class
Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a
little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis
and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact
that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his
manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he
would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same
way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department
store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was
really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she
seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not
think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if--I
can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years
myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a
New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey
New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business
everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of
situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the
city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or
Louisiana, that this had----
Mr. CARRO. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have
thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that
in some other States--I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a
boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to
court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got
involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I
said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no
question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss
was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that.
I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State
and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her
she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under
the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the
court felt that it was OK.
Mr. LIEBELER. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State,
that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not?
Mr. CARRO. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on
vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was
referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without
coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before
she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it
would be up to the judge.
You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit
it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what
you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you
go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or
you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark,
N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with
such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write
to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see
if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan
or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out
of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in
reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests
of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this
is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out
to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the
court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are.
And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and
the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing.
So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have
to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this.
Mr. LIEBELER. But despite that fact she left the jurisdiction?
Mr. CARRO. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was
returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then,
and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have
extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone.
This is about the sum total of what happened there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of
the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he
went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost
9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various
institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to
service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines,
because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that
this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy
of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age
and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were
taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the
kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant
place and he was--well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and
he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated
their being able to service him.
I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and
they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the
intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him
down.
Children's village at the time, which could have given service to
this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at
this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so
on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to
our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a
psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at
the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which
was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure
preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were
actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and
this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to
be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the
limits of the situation we had with the boy at home.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own
psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth
House, is it not?
Mr. CARRO. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d
Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the
kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort,
and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would be an outpatient-type situation?
Mr. CARRO. An outpatient-type of situation, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never actually did do that, however, because he left
the State?
Mr. CARRO. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and
having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed
than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time?
Mr. CARRO. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who
committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed
boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a
truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent
behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted
as--I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be
mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really
had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you
know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior
which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more
extreme nature.
Mr. LIEBELER. Than his?
Mr. CARRO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a
real mental problem or prone to violence or----
Mr. CARRO. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems
in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York
Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New
York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who
commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really
criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that
attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just
stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a
matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive
psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school
we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More
seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes
in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act.
It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm
to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school
rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property
or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in
here.
It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the
reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because
although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always
someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate
to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the
court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and
parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children.
But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going
to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the
family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He
wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man.
He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going
for him outside.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show
any inclination to cooperate.
Mr. CARRO. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there
was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say,
"Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through,
between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there
out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him
see these things through.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend
placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy
himself, you would say?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors
rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance
or psychotic disorder.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy
was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into
where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out----
Mr. CARRO. Fly kites or pigeons, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a
tendency to stay home and watch television?
Mr. CARRO. No----
Mr. LIEBELER. Wait, please----
Mr. CARRO. I am sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different
kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on
Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of
environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind
that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of
environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is
that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came
here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East
Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a
Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto
Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to
virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city,
because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me
outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my
hands.
I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was
downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates--I don't think I was down
there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just
stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock.
Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when
somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I
fought with the Negro boys until things worked out--and, as I remember,
things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school.
But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the
situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them.
Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over
his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and
to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids
wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There
is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and
everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and
he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any
part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I
recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school
and that he had other, more important things to learn and do.
Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I
don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on
my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I
thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way
of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another
fashion.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that some statements have been made, based
apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people
who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old,
to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing
the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the
assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such
indication in Lee Oswald?
Mr. CARRO. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be
extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection
or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a
streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists
along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply
disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a
couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have
done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many
people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that
just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal
living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that
you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from
just blowing up or exploding altogether.
I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would
someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican
youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe
this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are
human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one
day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and
say, "I am me. I am alive."
I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond
Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was
flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited
him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the
paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize
that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest,
the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment.
And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's
attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes,
and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that
motivated Oswald?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently
was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been
knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he
had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some
people are prone to this.
I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in
my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like
this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want
somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I
don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage.
As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the
Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said
he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly
these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things
any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that
would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there
would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty
sincerely say such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the
fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been
under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to
review the records of the case before you----
Mr. CARRO. No; I had no--there was nothing to review. Those
kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only
recollection--and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who
came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned--there were five
reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't
know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he
seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating
what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me,
and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my
recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a
friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from
me, who called me to say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you yourself have not actually reviewed----
Mr. CARRO. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to
refresh my recollection about.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition
that was filed, or the memorandum----
Mr. CARRO. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't--an
FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't
know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down,
as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what
was in the record there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The record that you prepared----
Mr. CARRO. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my
record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside
of the records he had.
Mr. LIEBELER. The records which you would have prepared would be
prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and
they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct?
Mr. CARRO. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point
as to what happened 12 years ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document
that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears
to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald.
This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would
ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you
recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in
fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth
House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in
connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is
the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the
judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form
where you begin with the identifying information as to the child,
the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you
go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record,
family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and
neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and
special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version,
which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the
incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where
you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and
evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer
based on his getting together all this data.
And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which
is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the
probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the
actual study.
And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded,
who appeared, when, and I note that my signature--not my signature but
my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took
place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time
he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954.
Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I
made to the court.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it finally concludes with your statement----
Mr. CARRO. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court
action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no
appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself,
the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported
that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to
the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former
associate thought that the family may have been living in California.
Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our
jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea;
we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but
couldn't get back any positive reports.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would this particular document, which I will mark as
"Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New
York--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of
the record as a special report?
Mr. CARRO. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually
the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own
small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the
docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are
the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation
department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is
just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the
month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate
report.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of
the action taken?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is the record.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with the case?
Mr. CARRO. This is the record that the probation officer maintains
while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and
reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and
any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here
and make a small notation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition
for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial
it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying
it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this
report?
Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for
one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn--and I refer to the
entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation--those bearing the name John
Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked
is a somewhat illegible copy.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow
paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and
make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr.
Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would
be of help to the Commission?
Mr. CARRO. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that
you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been
able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the
time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this
point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you.
Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and
I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original
psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it
is, and they are amply--I don't think that I could add anything
independently that would be of help to the Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more
questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission
for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is
another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are
associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The
Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely.
Mr. CARRO. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would
like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help
in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Carro.
Mr. CARRO. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS
The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April
16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing
the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things,
that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and
the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy
of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will
provide you with copies of these documents.
The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that
a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days'
notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also
entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice
since we are here.
Dr. HARTOGS. That's right, sure, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which
the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in
1953 or 1954.
Would you state your full name for the record, please.
Dr. HARTOGS. Renatus Hartogs.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Dr. HARTOGS. 7 East 86th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born and when?
Dr. HARTOGS. In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States, Doctor?
Dr. HARTOGS. On December 4, 1940.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received your education in Germany, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the
University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical
degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I
came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the
requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a
medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I
have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. In what field is that?
Dr. HARTOGS. In clinical psychopathology.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are----
Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State
of New York, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of
medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice
of medicine as a psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United
States as a psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany?
Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium?
Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of
medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House
of New York City, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position?
Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief
psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are.
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have
been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of
psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are
psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number.
As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I
submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and
it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.
I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric
aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very
interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional
public of New York City is invited.
So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason
why I vaguely remember him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief
psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953.
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much
the same in 1953 as they are now?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately?
Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300.
Mr. LIEBELER. A staff?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have
about two staff members for every child.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were
other psychiatrists.
Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your
staff.
Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953?
Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously.
Sometimes we had even four.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who
were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they
were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff
continuously.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New
York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions?
Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the
city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department.
Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then
later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration
and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was
maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation
department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth
House.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it
still a private organization at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the
procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House
for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the
Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.
Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then?
Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary
screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure
drawings. That is a special test that is given.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff?
Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a
preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right
away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis
and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in
Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child
goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the
techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy.
Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to
school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops
for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have
our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.
So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various
departments.
Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the
parents of the child who are invited.
Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see
the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the
social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents,
I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I
have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the
recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist.
And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate
in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth
House staff.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your
time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week.
Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you
see during the period of time in a week, average week?
Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours
with each child, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen
for about half an hour to an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. By you?
Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which
takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that
counts about 2 hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth
House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can
remember about that interview in your own words.
Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed
this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on
this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge
of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to
have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had
a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was
rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a
mild charge as truancy from school.
This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is
the reason why we discussed him in the seminar.
I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster,
pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had
to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous
fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact
with reality.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was?
Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning
to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his
own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with
people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember
actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection
of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you
gave; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview
with Lee Oswald itself?
Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he
was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture
of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that
you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the
general subject matter of the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the
professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an
interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because
of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and
the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was
opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about
the development, background and early history of the child; then the
Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the
school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his
findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the
findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the
court.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject
matter for the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select
these children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar
prepared?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written
down; it is purely informal.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar
would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you
and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court
in respect of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this
youngster should be committed to an institution.
Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you
recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the
personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?
Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that
is the average stay.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is
observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?
Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric
observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance,
or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his
actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a
training school. These are the three purposes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy
would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something
like that?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is
maximum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended
that Oswald be committed to?
Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific
institution. This is a prerogative of the court.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of
institution to which you recommend a child?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training
school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this
case what I recommended.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend,
because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the
FBI?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that
is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of
his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially
dangerous?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after
the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had
previous contact?
Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice
Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that
Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the
psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I
was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording?
Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used;
potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the
expressions.
Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of
work?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others?
Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that
indicated this?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that
Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact?
Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New
York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the
one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did
not know for sure, but it is possible.
And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said,
"You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for
sure that it was me, because they must have read a report.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that
you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some
doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then
reconstructed everything in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated, by recalling----
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, then I recalled everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any statement to television people in
connection with this at all?
Dr. HARTOGS. About Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Dr. HARTOGS. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the
television people asked me to make a statement on television in general
about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any
name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general
psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the
President.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall approximately what you said?
Dr. HARTOGS. That a person who would commit such an act has been very
likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against
persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to
overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an
act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world,
which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge
his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general
terms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated
on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had
examined Lee Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was not?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call
me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or
something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time neither one of you were----
Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence?
Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination
which you had made of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the
report which you made at the time you examined Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that
report since the assassination?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards
your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own
independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview
with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed
you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly
impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time,
because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling
that to the agents?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in
control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude.
He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say,
nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective
about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I
remembered; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and
pale-faced boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about
Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality
disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis?
Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as
I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their
opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability,
his mental endowment?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least
average at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr.
Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a
document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a
report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11
years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by
the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report
for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to
my initials.
(Witness complies.)
(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's
Report" marked "Exhibit 1.")
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the
report that you prepared at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at
the report that you made at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern
disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies."
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you
wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built,
well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on
charge of truancy."
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled
"Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down,
did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should
be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and
guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should
be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to
a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same
time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance
through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work
out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an
outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted
to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment
on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore
possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this
boy?"
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly
understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11
years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11
years ago.
Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and
on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that
possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the
seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any
indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would
indicate this possible violent outburst, is there?
Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall
it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it
in the report?
Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the
diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with
a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade
aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I
did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is
no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially
dangerous" in the report.
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my
words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not.
Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in
occurrence, are they not amongst people?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the
three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or
an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The
passive-aggressive one is the least common.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the
passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves,
what do they indicate?
Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under
which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile
tendencies toward others?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the
aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations
or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length
of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes,
this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around
the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike
everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the
Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would
indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the
mother?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but
the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for
the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment
or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of
psychotic mental changes could be made"?
Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and
hallucinations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological
impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort
which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home
environment here in New York at the time he came?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you
now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having
died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and
that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a
short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the
Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department
store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found
difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed
differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand
Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a
generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not
dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given
some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the
people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did
not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were
true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way
that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality
disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or
conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern
disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early
childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It
is not the result of recent conditioning.
Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an
opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have
caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a
father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved
mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors.
Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks
that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what
motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the
report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for
giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we
want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much,
Doctor.
Dr. HARTOGS. Okay.
"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to
Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of
being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is
concerned. This is his first contact with the law.
"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely
talking about himself and his feelings. He likes _the_ give the
impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep
himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the
effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional
wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient
clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of
_awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal
tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and
I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and
according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and
negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content
was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at.
"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning
presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract
thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation
in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school.
Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the
television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the
learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is
'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The
discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the
low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has
arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and
emotional discouragement.
"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was
born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while
the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This
occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision
of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely
dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only
way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself
competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee
claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has
hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food
for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some
food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother
rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed
the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much
on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has
vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power,
through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and
frustrations. He did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and
when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_
of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is
to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social
worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved
and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to
understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does
not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent
protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a
complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested
enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and
help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee.
"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the
exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting
from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental
injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental
disease.
"_Summary for Probation Officer's Report_:
"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and
functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic
truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of
neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee
has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid
features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an
emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of
really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection,
absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted
mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form
of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression
that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very
patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into
group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he
should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and
guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should
be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute,
to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the
same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic
guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not
work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan
on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could
be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression
that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter
and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to
the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly
of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the
organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the
PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."
TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL
The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m.,
on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York,
N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has
promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from
witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give
testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each
witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you
will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony
since you are here. Is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that
if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your
own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts,
releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you
wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it.
Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the
transcripts are released?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as
a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and
his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details
of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record,
if you would.
Mrs. SIEGEL. Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SIEGEL. 1347 River Road, Teaneck.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mrs. SIEGEL. New York City.
Mr. LIEBELER. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in
New York as a social worker?
Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working as a social worker?
Mrs. SIEGEL. In March of 1950.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue in that work?
Mrs. SIEGEL. I'm still working as a social worker.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the city?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; on a part-time basis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational
background?
Mrs. SIEGEL. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of
Social Work.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with
the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that
correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. For whom did you work as a social worker?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Youth House.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still working for Youth House?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I'm not.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did
you terminate your employment with Youth House?
Mrs. SIEGEL. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in
August--well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same
institution setup, in August of 1958.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth
House as it existed in 1953?
Mrs. SIEGEL. In what aspect?
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went
there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me?
Mrs. SIEGEL. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had
gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for
a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court,
so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for
diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth
House, which was given to the judge.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a report was this? What was in it? What did
it say?
Mrs. SIEGEL. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history
taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy
and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth
House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House
psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the Youth House psychiatrist?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Dr. Renatus Hartogs.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were
there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and
reported, do you know?
Mrs. SIEGEL. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by
a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from
time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by
Dr. Hartogs alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report
of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other
workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report
from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors,
so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Those would be given to the social workers; is that
correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And used as a basis for the social worker's report?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Not as a basis for it but incorporated into it.
Mr. LIEBELER. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from
the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her
report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social
worker; is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the
course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mrs. SIEGEL. After the President's assassination, the name meant
nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and
it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it
was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband
that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time
I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought
that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he
looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he
was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that
was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans,
which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I
remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as
it was at that time?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little
boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your
recollection?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And improve it at all?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Since the----
Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in
those days. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to his mother at all?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am
terribly curious to see my report again.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you know Dr. Hartogs?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to
1958--6 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him since that time?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; we don't see each other socially at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't spoken to him?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. About the Oswald case; is that right?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't seen him since I left Youth House.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that from time to time
the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to
instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the
psychologists and other employees of Youth House?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars.
We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I
remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being
the sole role.
Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there were seminars?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you.
Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the
subject of one of these seminars?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for
Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was?
Mrs. SIEGEL. I only read in the paper that it was truancy.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no independent recollection about it
otherwise at all?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled
"Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7,
1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the
social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time
have been you; is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And still is?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the
report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey
Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you
prepared?
Mrs. SIEGEL. This is indubitably mine.
Mr. LIEBELER. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact
with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of
the interview, were they not?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he
was still at Youth House.
Mr. LIEBELER. The point being that the report would accurately reflect
the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother?
Mrs. SIEGEL. As accurately as I could; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it was prepared on or about the time that you
conducted the interview, was it not?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Correct, yes; and shortly afterward.
(Document marked "Exhibit 1.")
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as
Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964,
and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if
you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking
about the same thing.
(Witness complies.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another report, which upon examination you
will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the
Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic
copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are.
Mrs. SIEGEL. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated
into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which
should go into the report to the court.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown
you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your
actual contact with the boy and with the mother?
Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared
Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to
the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other
personnel; is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been
referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy,"
and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of
7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman"
and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework
supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it.
Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2.
(Document marked "Exhibit 2.")
Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have
written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an
"E" like that. I don't know who did that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report
prepared by you?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation
into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the
undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are
talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in
connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed
so that you could add anything other than that which is already set
forth in the written report which you prepared at that time?
Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you
prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in
1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent
tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of
violence?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report
that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of
serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not
prepared to say.
Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the
material set forth in your report; is that correct?
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add
to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be
helpful to the Commission in its work?
Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much
on behalf of the Commission.
Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel.
Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye.
TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO
The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the
U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness
is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint
resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted
governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.
The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot
do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will
provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.
Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness
is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give
testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he
wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice
requirement since you are here; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the
association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey
Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine
Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of
the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa
Ana, Calif., for a period of time.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state
your full name for the record, please?
Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?
Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?
Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?
Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion,
71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a
linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently.
That is what that last 6 in that digit means.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?
Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif.
Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you
received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were
stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord.
Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for
Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic
training took care of that.
December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I
arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile
Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was
transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same
artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's
driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I
could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then
promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?
Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?
Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line
battery, Delta Battery.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?
Mr. DELGADO. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?
Mr. DELGADO. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.
Mr. LIEBELER. First cook?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am
working.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your
military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified
to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to
establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the
OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the
service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military
records.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language
school.
Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish
language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into
the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?
Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn?
Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the
Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's
no record of it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn?
Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and
my mother lives in California.
Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave
me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine
Corps; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.
Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like
a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to
school in P.S. No. 2.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn?
Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred.
I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue
Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.
Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California?
Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back
to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went
to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it
is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and
went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the
11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual
Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you
then join the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d
Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?
Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making
Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2
months, and I joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico?
Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My
mother came when she was about 13.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?
Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City.
Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island,
S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp
Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in
electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville?
Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to?
Do you remember?
Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon
graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was
aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air
Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning
school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and
graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9,
Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any
time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi
or Jacksonville?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school
in Jacksonville and Biloxi?
Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military
Occupation Specialty. Is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was
what?
Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I
guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress,
control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and
help of aircraft running into problems.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got
discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your
training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort
in the course of your work at Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified
information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret
clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and
challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature
of your work, you actually worked in a control room?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you
would then challenge that aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?
Mr. DELGADO. That's true.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft
requesting it to identify itself were classified information?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the
radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each
site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are
and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what
outfit covers us and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----
Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the
capabilities of the radars, as I said before.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----
Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----
Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets
knew these things?
Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication
charts, which is also a secret.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?
Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the
phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word.
Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to,
he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or
code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it
up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or
not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour
to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of
any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?
Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa
Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit.
I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we
had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This
is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?
Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and
he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody
bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't
associate with too many people.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.
Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really
developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was
commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the
beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just
so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when
Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me,
and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them,
and they all took over." It was a big joke.
So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he
got transferred to mine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own.
Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he
didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So
the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out,
you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?
Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----
Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half
lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with
a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in
one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we
had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being
transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And
we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer
that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how
to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of
life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people.
He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.
He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified
information that I know of out or see anybody about it.
As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range
at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a
sharpshooter at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the
rifle; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?
Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's
Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?
Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut
designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them
up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time----
Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in
good shape, clean?
Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting
gigged for one thing or another.
Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as
the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was
told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was
basically a man that complained quite frequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they
told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him
and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each
other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man
in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an
easier way for him to get something done.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were
asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called
him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oz?
Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the
bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the
outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up
that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling
me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he
didn't understand it like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa
Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date
of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before
I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?
Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to
the time he came to Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from
the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the
Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a
couple of guys stationed with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was
two of them stationed with him overseas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else
overseas other than Atsugi?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines
for a while?
Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been
stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?
Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a
small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the
Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this
question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle
practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much
detail as you can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before
we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second
highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80
to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low
ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the
sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't
firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best
firer on the line.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at
all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think
it was, just barely sharpshooter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum----
Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?
Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no;
pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters,
and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a
plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?
Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there
was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on
line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but
at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke,
because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses,
but he didn't give a darn.
Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?
Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as
the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.
Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that
the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates
the targets.
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as
Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular
lines; then we went to the pits, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very
comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down,
you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the
disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down,
you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in
the line from you when you fired?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?
Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle
at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my
picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was
doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I
didn't want no competition.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?
Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?
Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third.
Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in
the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported----
Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that
you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your
score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that
way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO
line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down
there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score,
and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they
both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the
man down the pit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's
score could have been fixed up; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go
down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing,
and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is
pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both
scorecards to correspond with each other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at
Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been
interviewed prior to this time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?
Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?
Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.
Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?
Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times,
because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same
fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different
fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a
Spanish interpreter.
Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you
speak?
Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go
down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all
right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college
graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type
of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish
countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you
know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man
from England the way he speaks pure English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when
he spoke to you in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty
in interpreting my Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion
that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I
go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they
talked to you? Were they----
Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he
was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two
different fellows.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?
Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not.
He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow,
and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this
Spanish guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to
you?
Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about
January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe
he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the
battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish
fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They
were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you
was when?
Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after
Kennedy's assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November
22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice
that you have just told us about?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask
for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I
didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also
keeping the score.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a
good rifle shot; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his
rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average
marine?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a
bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in
the pool; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty
high; that's about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview
that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took
of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at
the base--is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I
have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the
Spanish-speaking man was there?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you
remember?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time
they came up.
Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most
marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a
pot, but that is the same thing?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started
for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado
said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."
Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not
come close to winning?
Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I
always had an expert badge on me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the
carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one.
Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be
reflected in your military records, would they not?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files
also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they
are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes
into your records. That's why they are so strict.
Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that
qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had
penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it
you were more than lucky.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was
a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way
of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who
is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of
yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get
together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say
to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on
target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each
other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice
of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with
the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You
just have to take your chances.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or
firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals
like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing
like this?
Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the
targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.
Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you
qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the
rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO
and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that
means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in
with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other
along.
You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is
shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him
the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?
Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even
in connection with this?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took
second place?
Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I
didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to
school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I
never got real close to any of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said
that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that
just must be a mistake; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said
that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he
didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was
a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how
you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the
first interview that you had?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk,
and I was at ease there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?
Mr. DELGADO. The address?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and
qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time
everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going
to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could
have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept
on badgering me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the
Spanish-speaking agent was present?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?
Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?
Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking
at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was
sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking
out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he
was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case
of jitters, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks,
that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to
get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have
got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in
Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish
into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court,
you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go
to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go
in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going
to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow,
you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him.
You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where
we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we
try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish,
and that is not going to do.
If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is
giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to
hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you
know, get with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?
Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and
forth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you
mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with
Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the
time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made
it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one
of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along
the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities
of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was
going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people
a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian
purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated
with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista,
and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot
him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he
should have gone about doing it.
Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and
I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro
was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life,
you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came
in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and----
Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know,
enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become
officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable
discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he
got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and
fought with Castro in the Escambres.
Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though;
and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major,
you know.
So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish
and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the
same line as Castro did at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and
lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too,
you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?
Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take
over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of
Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main,
pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the
United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning
of Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?
Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and
were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was
out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and
things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage.
But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started
actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to
Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on
asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English
person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution
movement?"
I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any
country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be
trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he
started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought
himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to
me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but
enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common
Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which
way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.
As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate
of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.
Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something
like that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and
asking for things and telling them something.
And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how
about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't
know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to
get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I
told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this
wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to
answer him. I told him go see them.
After a while he told me he was in contact with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you
know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one
time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I
was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie,
and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was
addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as
I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling
me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these
letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all
the time. He always had money. That's why.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?
Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was
pretty tight.
So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa
Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make
it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is
on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some
people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him.
We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small
chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his.
I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay
like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.
Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana,
Mexico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can
remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor;
after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man,
because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a
call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be
a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find
somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit
with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours
talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or
what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing
when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember?
Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about
every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you
know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was
posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half
before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time
to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to
10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or
otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock,
if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9
o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night.
I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew
that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick
mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he
was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his
mother was sick.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked
to?
Mr. DELGADO. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard
duty that he was on; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run?
Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to
4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know.
Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time
with the Cuban Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to
be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. Also, up to this time
he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from
home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our
hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see
one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact
with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and
newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it
was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the
Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist;
it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian,
so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that
periodical. It was a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the
Cuban consulate; did he not?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know,
and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we
get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know?
Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came
to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the
envelope, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that?
Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive
seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost
looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I
just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't
understand. It was Latin.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban
consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that
envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and
one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested
because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that
paper again, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban
consulate was about?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the
conversation that you had about going over to Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had
this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to--once
he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to
a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in
2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over
here in 2 years, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school?
Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far
as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going
over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider----
Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started
actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you
know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact
if we wanted to go, you know, but----
Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious
about going to Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors,
so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's
attitude and his approach?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper
reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same
reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't
getting the money from Cuba that we were before.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were
getting a distorted view of Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was
happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much
correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got
came from the Cuban consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started
corresponding with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or
pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian--aside from
English, of course?
Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think
it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big
block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty
good, so I understand.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that?
Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a
whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would
try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn
a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire
to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian.
And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some
idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he
probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in
Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty
in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that
he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come
over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas
to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must
have been supported by Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee in Louisiana?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of
his arrest.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though?
Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing
pamphlets out in the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until
approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in
Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to
school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop
that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was
thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never
did follow through. There was too much redtape.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why,
but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you
learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not?
Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got
discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures
all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the
investigation there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out
of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you
were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that
he was in Berlin, going to school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this
idea?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the
Soviet Union?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he
couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure
he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict,
you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought
he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to
study there. He wanted to study psychology.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university
that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the
Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's
two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If
he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was
in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to
Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in
psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably
wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very
well have gone to the one in Berlin?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train
him their way.
(Short recess.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet
Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they
would train him their way?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the
Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to
use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to
be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a
factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.
Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating
to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured
this out for yourself?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak
Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine
Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and
hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be
understood. That's not too clear, is it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a
117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was
interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music,
things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read
poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and
things like that, he was a great fan.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently
proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or
anything like that.
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how
well Oswald could speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then
this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave
me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean?
Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you
know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read
it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me
what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable.
Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that?
Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you
think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you
know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you
know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time
understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking
fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him
what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times
he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words
for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that.
That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it
off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in
Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on
socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were
held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would
speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far
as basic conversation and debate; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about
socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give
him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish
in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?
Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of
superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In
fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because
we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak
Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was
small talk when we were talking Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you
on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo----
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home.
Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became
so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on
socialism in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our
Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in
front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically
the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking,
and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were
exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever
we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it
either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom----
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English?
Mr. DELGADO. In English.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple
of other fellows went to Tijuana.
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because
when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was
Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me
something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he
would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with
the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just
what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI
agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to
learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach
them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was
going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down
there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he
asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had
no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your
outfit?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?
Mr. DELGADO. Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. Jones?
Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating?
Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery.
Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do?
Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another
fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've
teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some
money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I
haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in
Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that.
Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a
little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same
amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much?
Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than
they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a
book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald
was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he
would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for
this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can
use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and
present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a
misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I
would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some
place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you
know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way
of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase.
I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of
these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't
put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's
the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that
you use it now and not later?" Things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to
put them in a sentence logically?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that?
Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In
Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the
show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the
show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it
around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain.
Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much
the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned
the Spanish words?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that
Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly
proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish
phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas
known?
Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he
wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you
know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if
you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and
made himself understood.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the
kind you buy out there for about $2.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You
mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that
time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the
paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could
speak it also.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then
another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was
German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't
figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some
of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize
them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do
remember, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German?
Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been
to Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German,
you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other
language to any extent; he just used a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in
doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know;
and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I
was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was
speaking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just
phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the
Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any
Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?
Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were
stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same
thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in
English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any
Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught
him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my
help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing
that is happening now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to
get you to change your story?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the
proposition that Oswald understood Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say.
Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to
believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had
the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not
being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be
at a tie with the Cuban government.
Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI
agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about
Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you
get about the agents?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no
authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach
somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I
am concerned.
If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6
months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me,
I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my
ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could
take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach
him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach
him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months'
time he could hold a conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself
were not good at Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents'
attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know,
he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he
did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My
dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you
know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I
don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't
tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That
is no practical use for him, you know.
I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a
Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer
from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what
I teach these guys, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and
understand them; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and
Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that
he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could
not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the
Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your
Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and
real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak
Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard
time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and
sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer
bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied
that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking
agent was there?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your
Spanish to express yourself completely?
Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what
that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say
it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just
about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is
working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other
fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and
deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made
another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the
majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States?
Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then?
Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles
with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many
times Oswald went to Los Angeles?
Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just once?
Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as
far as I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one
occasion?
Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these
people.
Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never
asked him. It wasn't my business, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban
Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of
some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on
weekends at other times?
Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know----
Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one
particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one
occasion that you can remember; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same
answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men,
that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back
and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else,
you know. I was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding
officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other
week or anything like that?
Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to Los Angeles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Every week?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three
weekends a month.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times
that he went into Los Angeles?
Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that
Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport
shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited
up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he would often talk at length about the opera;
is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried to be a listener, but I wasn't too
interested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to be interested in girls?
Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend
write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing;
never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And
when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9
times out of 10 I ended up paying for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports?
Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I
read in Life Magazine?
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say?
Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a
statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a
statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the
football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact
in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a
captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he
went off the team.
To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant
colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in
contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on
details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in
the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the
football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we
worked, and he was too old to play football.
Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I
remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald
left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's
what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big
agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like
this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along
and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was?
Was this the issue----
Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the
picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover,
holding the rifle?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or
psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was
commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with
Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever
comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going
to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any
interest in sports?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports.
Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the
football team?
Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went
out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you
know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and
handball; and that was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player?
Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so.
Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play?
Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback,
quarterback or anything like that, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these?
Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the
battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for
competition.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football.
Mr. DELGADO. Flag football.
Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football?
Mr. DELGADO. Touch football.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this
trip to Tijuana?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, it happened on one of our weekends off.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me there. I would say about May, something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959.
Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before
the rifle qualification or after?
Mr. DELGADO. After.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much after?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period,
because we were about just gotten paid, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I
can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why
because they worked in a different department than I did there, never
had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had
the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told
them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for
a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he
wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with
me plenty of times and he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's
go to Tijuana."
He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of
us were, in casual clothes.
We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and
all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't
register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How
did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before,
because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to
get to this place, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo?
Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of Tijuana?
Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of Tijuana. Have you been over there?
Mr. LIEBELER. No.
Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have
got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles
out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2
miles away from the center of the town.
When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he
had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had
been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I
can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting
bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have
been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking
fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of
being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these
clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was
really nice, a nice place.
Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you?
Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool,
he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big
girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all.
Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling
stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you
know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about
the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying.
Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you
can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was
when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P.
gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put
in for a new I.D. card and what have you.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Tijuana?
Mr. DELGADO. In Tijuana.
Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across----
Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border?
Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the
customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone.
Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay in Tijuana itself or did you stay across the
border?
Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown Tijuana.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where?
Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are
some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a
girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me
like he had one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his
experiences, that you can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of
life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like
that to exist, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a
copy of Das Kapital?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember?
Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was
circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one
time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was
reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said
that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it.
So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying
the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know.
He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it.
Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the
room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to
put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to
assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only
logical explanation.
They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see
him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy,
you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the
room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to
find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals
take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book,
the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny.
But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and
the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist
people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the
socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like
that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running
the whole farm and the farmer was working for them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know the name of the book?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the book?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is called the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell.
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he
wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read
it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention
apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they
got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting
among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing
that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made
the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book?
Mr. LIEBELER. No.
Mr. DELGADO. That is just the way you interpret it; right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an
anti-Communist book.
Mr. DELGADO. Is it really?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each
other a little bit; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on
persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being
shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you
know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point
came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army,
very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he
was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady
stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in
charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to
have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's
statement with no proof whatsoever.
So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new
governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that,
something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you
will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing,"
you know.
I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they
started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.
Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on
there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting
more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher----
Mr. LIEBELER. More highly?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month
later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must
have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I
come back he was already gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he
actually got out of the Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get
away from Oswald before you went on leave?
Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and
all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be
under another guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to
talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue
with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly
disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got
to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk
out and leave the conversation in the air.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody?
Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at
Santa Ana?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted?
Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the
section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found
out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to
the other huts.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before
this question of your transfer ever came up?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let
us review that for a moment.
Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately----
Mr. DELGADO. 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave?
Mr. DELGADO. What?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and
left, or did you go on leave and then come back?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave?
Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something
like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I
think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part
to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come
back to New York?
Mr. DELGADO. To New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them?
Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came
back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the
story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under
investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them
about August.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July?
Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July?
Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I
know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good
weather.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually
transferred to another hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only
transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a
transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be
bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up,
and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a
hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth
and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a
hardship discharge, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same
quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the
Marines together about going to Russia?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never did?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least
$800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to
go through.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you
mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was?
Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los
Angeles--the month, you want?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it----
Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was
one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle
practice?
Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I
don't think we had any political discussions at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I
say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these
incidents, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after
your leave before you were discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset
hut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call
Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is
German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever.
But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald
"Comrade," or anything like that, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that?
Mr. DELGADO. Call.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?
Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No.
Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He
used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade,"
and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call
said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get
mixed up in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him
Oswaldovich?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too?
Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit.
Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have
too many close friends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't?
Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a
good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly
for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because
he liked classical music and good books, now.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports
and that sort of thing?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know
Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing
formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and
some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they
were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around.
So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing
it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack
around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled
that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time
since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped
out, Oswald the first one he seen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that?
Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault.
The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad
leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a
sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute
him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of
these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging
next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's
what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who
might have known Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but
I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents,
Holbrook or--something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato
rancher.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these
people?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho
usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud
about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not
the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked
in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were
pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But
Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember
mentioning him to the FBI agents?
Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short
fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged
from the Marine Corps.
Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call?
Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he
was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. Corporal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what?
Mr. DELGADO. Private.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't
been promoted?
Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he
was court-martialed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who
knew him from overseas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for?
Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area?
Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the
war room.
Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching----
Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes.
Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were
passing notes back and forth.
Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a
big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets
would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when
we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft
were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to
talk, he would hand a note to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time?
Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men.
Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at
this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who
had the aircraft on their scopes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes?
Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from
doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on
the plotting board.
Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were
permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft.
Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there.
Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that
you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks.
Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week.
Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. Positive.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all?
Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have
made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have
been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was he?
Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida.
His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big
boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I
wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them----
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?
Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller,
and he was also our platoon officer.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant
Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that
correct?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard
shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk?
Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant
Lusk?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?
Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the
misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us
up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away.
Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8
o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy
walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the
diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old
man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up
there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said,
"You're getting as bad as Oz."
But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with
the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like
walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on
restriction at the same time.
Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be
court-martialed for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties
with Oswald?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?
Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to
do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him.
We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including
Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go
to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other
countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you
back.
Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say?
Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in
trouble like that?
Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period
of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic.
And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a
route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if
you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And
he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm
bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the
same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two
guys defected.
Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this
later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it
was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working
for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same
route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me,
and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing
just how you go about doing it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also
defected to Russia at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year
afterwards?
Mr. DELGADO. A year later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men
did defect?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I
assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the
two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I
remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we
were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get
there, now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States
into Mexico into Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I
would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something
to that effect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were
going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination
that Oswald went to Mexico?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to
Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now?
Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico
on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him
to cross over into Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba.
Mr. DELGADO. Or had any----
Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going
to Cuba.
Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are
confusing this as something that Oswald said before?
Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according
to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route
was done in 1960 or 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion?
Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist.
That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was
religious.
Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a
Maker.
Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth
or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one
falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about
religion?
Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with
religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school,
you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He
himself never went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible?
Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men,
you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all.
Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show
how wrong it was?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and
I told them he was an atheist. That's all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote
from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look
silly?
Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he
did that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism
that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the
Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase
it--everything was common or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good
thing?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the
military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an
individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together
in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning
everything, and everybody worked for the state.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military,
and like socialism, and still hate the military?
Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people
love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same
people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant
Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked
discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that
told him what to do?
Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know.
He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at
all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them,
or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any
kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a
complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been
longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no
respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you.
But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot,
he wouldn't like anything you told him to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this
comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?
(Short recess.)
(Question read.)
Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that
the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to
do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs
along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that
order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a
whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would
argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's----
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that
somebody should give orders like this and----
Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone
to the Soviet Union?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to
do any such thing?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that
he planned to go to Russia?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before----
Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland.
Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to
the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once?
Mr. DELGADO. Once.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition
treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into
any trouble? Do you remember that?
Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he
ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other
countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina
would be the next best."
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he
intended to go to Russia?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition
treaties?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel----
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU.
Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?
Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you
know, university--campus.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi?
Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged.
Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was
discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or
three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went
down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because
it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name?
Mr. DELGADO. Don.
Mr. LIEBELER. Don?
Mr. DELGADO. Don.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the
same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your
recollection on that?
Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I
seen Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases,
you know, that kind of talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to
teach----
Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we
were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time
once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there,
so we didn't have that much time together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on
the post for a while after he came to----
Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and
then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife
in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call
him Lee or----
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name?
Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the
military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow
referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last
name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I
didn't even know his name was Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with
Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he
asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in
any kind of real program to teach him Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he
wanted interpreted, that's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in
your outfit?
Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of
the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another,
Charley Brown, but I can't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI?
Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown.
I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored
fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the
dark.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the
FBI now?
Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not
Brown.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you
think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this
particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his
estimation.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were
as smart as Oswald was?
Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get
in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The officers?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics,
which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would
say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of
five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you
know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good,
you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and
politics.
Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could
imagine.
Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used
to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got
in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just
walk off, you know, and leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him?
Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional
beer. I never seen him drunk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any
homosexual tendencies?
Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with
girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In
fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he
thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit
with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two
fellows they caught.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or
did you ever discuss that with him?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was
studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody,
you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go
and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was
more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here
and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you
know, and he'd argue that point.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical
joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only
one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a
quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his
face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through
open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could
remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you
know [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced?
Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any
sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have
no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very
much.
TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS
The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at
U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first
duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401
12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone
conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general
counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the
Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a
resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President
Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission;
and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the
taking of depositions.
And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are
aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the
duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and
involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald
Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons
who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people
involved, who became involved in that tragic event.
One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is
our information that you had some contact with him while you were in
the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a
few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089.
Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records,
are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the
Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty
in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what
and who you are right at the moment.
Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie
Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education
with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And with a family?
Mr. POWERS. Of two children.
Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American?
Mr. POWERS. That's also correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you born?
Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my
birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers?
Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become
acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise?
Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first
arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville,
Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of
the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine
in charge.
Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time?
Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that?
Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them----
Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your
recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it.
Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.
Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping
and Receiving Station, Keesler----
Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May
1956.
Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957.
Mr. JENNER. 1957?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report
to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block
21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force
Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators
Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon
arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."
And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these
marines.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders
because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had
with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in
fact it was May 2, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him
while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla.
I mean previous to this May 2d order.
Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he
doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of
time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the
only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were
directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group,
if you would like to call it that.
Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not?
Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private.
I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's
correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in
which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your
group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to----
Mr. POWERS. Keesler----
Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in
Mississippi, Biloxi?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And who were the others?
Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Read it, please.
Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P.
Camarata, 1632342.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against
mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?
Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that
appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next
name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that
appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.
Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d?
Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please.
Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have
an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you
about.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did.
Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be
together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?
Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"?
Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from
then on were--ran relatively parallel?
Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We
did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders
to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at
Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the
same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and
graduation, if you would like to call it that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat
because some of the people reported in early to California and some of
them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that
some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course,
which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.
I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata,
Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and
Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east
coast, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled
from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?
Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he
was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was
normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this
attachment to Keesler.
I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the
other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age?
Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth?
Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was----
Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October
18, 1939?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval
Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with
respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any
question about him?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful?
Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that
you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact
that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a
train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most
of us.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given?
Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2
days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed
Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May.
So we reported for duty on that particular day.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that,
give his training, in Keesler Field.
Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the
operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft
in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was
similar; it was the same in context.
Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men?
Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively
parallel then?
Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as
attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same
level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were
brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of
what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in
the classes that we did attend.
Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and
warning operator course?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other
aircraft warning devices?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military
Occupation Specialty?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming
out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and
then after--
Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me.
Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it
does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they
issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may
be somewhat faded or dim.
And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional
digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground
control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early
warning system.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler?
Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we
picked up our orders to go to California.
Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day?
Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June
19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July
1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in
the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred
here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would
be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20----
Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days.
Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by
commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there
to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then
proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.
Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time?
Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2,
Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at
Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was
he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to
use.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to
come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that
he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was
always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would
get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general
personality would alienate the group against him.
And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come
to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life
where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a
personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was
concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine
characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were
concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to
a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. On what?
Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now,
this is a personal opinion.
And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he
was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were
in there in Mississippi.
He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one
that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was
concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything.
He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by
education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an
intelligent individual.
He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Of what?
Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he
was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something,
that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way
out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my
mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that
is really true or something that I want to recall----
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like----
Mr. POWERS. About him.
Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your
impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to
do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that
took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and
thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report
from you as we possibly can.
Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that
it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to
me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that
particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same
barracks?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular
barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as
possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us,
two in the room.
It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a
squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first
time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he
stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall,
but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that
something came up at this particular time.
He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better
than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just
as good as anybody wanted to be.
Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a
class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability?
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified
to say who was----
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the
course of your studies?
Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was
talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to
me, please?
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire
that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from
Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at
Keesler?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual
in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that
most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together
here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together
and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other
personally more than at any other time.
I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind
as well as the other people in the group.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as
leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to
worry about him as competitively?
Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our
careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't
any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were
all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there
was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the
marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the
way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and
well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an
advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any
differentiation of privates.
I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest
relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank
barrier or difference here.
I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school
and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which
we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is
a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce
discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank
said something.
Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out?
Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had
homosexual tendencies?
Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and----
Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one
is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their
characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their
personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some
respects.
Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine----
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely
related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that
period of time.
Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that
your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you
elaborate on that?
Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to
lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group
felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if
what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go
along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on
the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time
he did not.
And I would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was
responsive to the group as a whole.
At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see
today. I see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and
of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for
education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who
was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say
he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own
that he was an individual that you could sway.
Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further
myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that
I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is
the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term.
I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy,
and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have.
I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and
he stood in his beliefs.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching?
Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now.
Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high
school, if any?
Mr. POWERS. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a
Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree
from the University, and this will either be in physical education or
guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education
attendance after you left the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine
Corps, and then I went after my service.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period
about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school?
Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of
the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that
had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in
the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my
education.
And I think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any
individual that had a college education, there was a number of them
while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a
college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these
boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And
I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading
and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things
of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of
college education.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any
disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of
his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further
education?
Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject?
Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was
there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason
that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall,
he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he
didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service
to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines
jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your
attention of any kind?
Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in
my mind at this time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this----
Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he--during this
period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans?
Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to
go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was
only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home
on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were
free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall.
And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't
in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends.
I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all
weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this
possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at
Biloxi, Miss.
Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together
on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or
more of you?
Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we
had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as
long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at
this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were
somewhat different than the other fellows.
Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base?
Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home
in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to
the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots
of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used
to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go
downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together,
I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and
Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group,
they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie
around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald
going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty.
And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he
went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever
around there.
Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he
have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave
card periods?
Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it
wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now,
we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to
the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall
him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays
or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines
were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force
inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home
to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and
we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was
anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to
get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he
went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the
Biloxi area, is your impression?
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you
mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force
base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper,
the town, the community, I'm not sure.
But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would
be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base.
Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel
to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is
that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the
scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top.
Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in
proficiency be a pretty fair rating?
Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out
of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third
of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would
imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus.
Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was.
Mr. JENNER. You don't?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to
El Toro, you went by your own respective routes?
Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago
together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I
continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another
marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from
Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together.
Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving.
And I want to say, it was Bandoni----
Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection?
Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and
I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the
airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not
sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at
a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the
other fellows there.
Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not.
Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station----
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1957.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the
intervening period, that is, this leave period?
Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was
stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned
Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect.
Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas?
Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this
is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I
don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was
under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say
Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted----
Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in
Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of
having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having
lived for a while in Texas?
Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind.
New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he
used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's
say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas,
but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is
where he went.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when
I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August
draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It
was sometime in August, around the first of August.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th?
Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro
approximately a month then?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there?
Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"?
Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a
replacement trainee.
Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for
overseas.
Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher
authority?
Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he
showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was
like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what
he was told and that was it.
I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial
exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline.
Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time?
Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same
unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he
had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other
words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man
rather than Oswald the rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can
be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he
would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other
words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going
to let anybody else get what he could have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that
you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period
of time that you were at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual
at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and
this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in
Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the
most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't
think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and
got in the July draft.
Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a
different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to
start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and
again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late
off his leave, he took an extra week or something.
It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains
there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he
took his leave in.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from El
Toro?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For overseas?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship?
Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the
same ship.
Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail?
Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name
Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you?
Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats
and Mike boats.
Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat?
Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts.
Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for
loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while
we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the
21st of August, am I correct?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they
are not given to individuals as such.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port,
what foreign port?
Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama.
Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity.
Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now.
Mr. JENNER. What was the military base?
Mr. POWERS. That we reported to?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. Atsugi.
Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base?
Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's
primary mission is a Navy base.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata,
yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group?
Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must
have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he----
Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these
taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald
appears in?
Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a
class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it
shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated.
I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or
anything like that.
Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata
and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald
and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but
Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force--rather Marine
base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan,
down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a
while and talk to him.
And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that
was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he
would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan.
Mr. JENNER. I-O-W-C----
Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I
think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me
that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I
possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football
trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling
season.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life
on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did
together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you
overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the
platoon or group to Oswald.
Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting
to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank
associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time,
you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was
brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of
the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned,
and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were
some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can
remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was
quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not
real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much
proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe
play--usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to
8 hours, playing chess.
Mr. JENNER. Four?
Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point
where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little
bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get
violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased
when he would win.
And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him.
He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his
life.
And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks,
and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books
back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up
westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of
literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt
Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read
it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I
still have the book.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that
I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks
that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason,"
and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not
sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the
United States," and democracy, and books of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books?
Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops--I'll use that for a lack of
a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where
they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up
and it was standard procedure, I assume.
Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit?
Mr. POWERS. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read
"Leaves of Grass"?
Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but
this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something
that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug
store or something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly
because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated
than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for
my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think
this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction
or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the
people that had more education than the average marine there.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader?
Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"?
Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal?
Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular
time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had
in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was
the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself
this way.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least
at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to
reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that
regard?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in
Mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than
other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. I can't
recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my
mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that
he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty,
he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this
nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did
this to----
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on
the trip over?
Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards.
Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over?
Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature,
whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I
don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were----
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either
something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of
this man during this period of time?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection,
was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the
Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of
the Marines, you might be good gangsters?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this
particular period of time or not, I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement?
Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably
parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think
it was--this was a common statement, but as I recall, he--he did say
this.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time,
whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have
been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some
griping----
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. This would be normal.
Mr. JENNER. Or something similar?
Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would
say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether
one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance
to it.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, what was your assignment?
Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and
assigned to crews within this squadron.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that?
Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1.
Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at
Atsugi, Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar
operator?
Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost
total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played
football during the fall and during this period of time we would
play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the
Philippines, and I stayed in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron
went down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know,
probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football,
and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then
out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that
time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January----
Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1?
Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group.
Mr. JENNER. About how many men?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most,
and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft
to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the
aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that?
Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it
yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and
you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees,
and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to
speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in
range or where he could see it visually, and they took over.
Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time,
when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular
sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign
aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey"
coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey,
if it didn't have the identification system on.
Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy----
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in
the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in
Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have
the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they
used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft
straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft
after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew.
Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually
looking for hot bogeys?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I
was playing football or----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football?
Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics?
Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes
went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out?
Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you,
in the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point.
Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation?
Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They
were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and
then this--something----
Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia,
somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a
particular period of time; and then there was another operation going
to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just----
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and
then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore
at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued
the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at
that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and
apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the
next operation.
Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at
Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point?
Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point
is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can
almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but
they were designated--Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay
was the landing area.
Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared
either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay,
and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where
he got that, and now you explained it for us.
Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the
swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c?
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it.
Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong.
Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's
Cubi Point and Subic Bay.
Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They
were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was
for the aircraft.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier
that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when
you rejoined the squadron?
Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my
particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people
that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them
were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States
somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the
Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to
death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the
scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm
and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun
which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty.
Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns?
Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing
that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning
against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Was there--you don't know what the official finding was
with respect to----
Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it?
Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other
than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a guy
could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way
[indicating], and "boom," it went off.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there
any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in
that incident?
Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all.
Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald.
Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use
of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the
chamber free of slugs?
Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure--again I can't say for sure, but it seems
to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it
seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or
supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in
other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your
chamber itself should be kept free.
Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to
click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with
your radar scanning assignment?
Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned
personnel do it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to
guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this happened again, I think, after the rest of
the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us
were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were
two of us, or three of us from the squadron.
Mr. JENNER. Who were they?
Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private--Private,
First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who
the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and
at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as
it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2
aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which
Oswald was included in, for the mainland.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the
mainland?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot?
Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then,
so he must have been there; yes.
Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection
with these special airplanes of which you now speak?
Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure,
what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the
site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that
the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went
up. I think this is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were
shipped to Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew
in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where
they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we
went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or
6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they
dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and
then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland.
Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to
Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division
in the operation of military exercises.
Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi
Point?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated
aircraft, scanning for it.
Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind
about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I
have a picture of it in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that
he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess
duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he?
Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are
assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out
of the year.
Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment?
Mr. POWERS. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months?
Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer.
Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from
Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. LST.
Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your
recollection?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March
period.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but
Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind
at Cubi Point.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do--did you return then to Atsugi?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. About when?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there?
Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it
was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot
himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which
part of the body it was.
Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow.
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was
in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening
that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been.
Mr. JENNER. What was your information and what is still your
information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot.
Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it
or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I
recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged,
and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a
concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure.
They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually
court-martialed then, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon?
Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a
Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol.
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if
any?
Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed
up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I
think this was the feeling of the group at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going
to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of
the squadron with respect to him----
Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to----
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time?
Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual
held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an
overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of
the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period
that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never
went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum
that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that,
and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the
Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in
a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance
sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during
this period?
Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else,
because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall
that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the
other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew----
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to
get out of the service?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you
recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I
want to recall it or something that is actually fact.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully.
Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure
speculation?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on.
Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that
because he had the unregistered or private weapon?
Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is
maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a
court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is
something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now
that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to
recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the
tendency to recall something that----
Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else.
Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me
that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had
been given some psychiatric attention?
Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in
the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm
not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing?
Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to
substantiate it or anything of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves?
Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was
after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and
set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this
was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement
that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now,
I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement
to him again.
Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is
that what you mean?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the
practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the
ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he
did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said
that somewhere?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally
attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he
wanted to stay in that particular country.
Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as
soon stay in Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you
were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or
on weekends, you would have liberty?
Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base
at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend,
and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend,
and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against
you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the
sergeant on duty and went on liberty.
Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty?
Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day.
Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends?
Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty
weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.
Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Per month?
Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of
the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get?
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the
Philippines, Operation Strong Back?
Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that?
Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play
football; I don't remember what that was.
Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back?
Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he
was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in
Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the
ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.
Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you?
Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across----
Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with
Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result
of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?
Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came
after I left Japan.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en
route most of June.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to
him?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks
that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you
recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for
an extension of his stay in Japan?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because
a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again
attached any significance to it.
Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he
did or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities?
Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation
maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at
least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just
went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was
it. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular
connection?
Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was
limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi,
Ozzie."
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language?
Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book
or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian
or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to
the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I
relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in
Japan, but I'm not sure, though.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian
language as such?
Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no.
Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language?
Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have
any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just
brief glimpses.
Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with
him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a
noncommissioned officer?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure.
It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again,
maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came
out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he
had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at
somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of
proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any
time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious
offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant?
Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I
think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant
before I left to come home, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation
that he was not an aggressive person?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to
coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a
little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that
you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not
from close relationships with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand
up for his own rights?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the
States?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too
scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine
Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of
training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective
appraisal during that first 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your
presence?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or
to any issues that I would recall.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you?
Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine
Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other
marines?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any
other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie
in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did.
But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other
individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did
have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to
authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him
that he would flare up once in a while.
Mr. JENNER. He would?
Mr. POWERS. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident----
Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back----
Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion?
Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I
recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming
out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say
that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him
would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could
give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he
would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you
knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this
only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him
authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he
would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.
Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached
the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him,
but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any
conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there
anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee?
Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack
Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard
that name associated with him.
Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself
by and large?
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be
sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty
at a different time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated?
Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's
just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling
good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication
with it----
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in
Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other
individual in close relationship with the people that you are there
with.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible
relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by
name or----
Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee
Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type
of thing. I'm not sure what it was.
Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of
him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that
he did have.
Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines.
Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say
there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as
an odd-ball?
Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball
means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's
different.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different.
Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the
normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he
was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want
to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics,
that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry
because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this
goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.
And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least,
this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell
right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it
just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an
impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps
tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't
fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine
Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed
to be.
Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined?
Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite
side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent
than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I
wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent
than most of them.
Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say
"intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?
Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better
developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the
time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects
appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group
or in the groups that he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that
account?
Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he
portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And,
of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the
Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic
problems or school.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he
was?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't
think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but
all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and
the Browning automatic rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with
people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject
that he had?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had
the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there
and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would
say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that
was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I
asked you this--to keep by himself?
Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself?
Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself.
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that
because----
Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan
because he was not a member of your platoon?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he
was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?
Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was
resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not
of the authority itself, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather
what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it
probably.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado?
Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thornley?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall?
Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of----
Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph.
Mr. JENNER. Murray?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Osborne?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Call?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Botelho?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any
time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?
Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there
any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present
about religion?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's
full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P.
Camarata?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably
recall.
Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the
name of John E. Donovan?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now.
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray.
Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in.
Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c.
Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which
I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything
that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall
investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you
had contact with Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add.
I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running
around like him today that can be easily influenced.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you
find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right
to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you
wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.
Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why----
Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned----
Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned.
Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN
The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart
Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M.
Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.
Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do.
Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely.
The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members
of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to
investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of
President Kennedy.
The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the
Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this
Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of
the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.
Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these
documents?
Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading.
Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan.
Mr. ELY. And where do you live?
Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C.
Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?
Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va.
Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do?
Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown
University.
Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do?
Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio.
Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in
Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.
Mr. ELY. For how long?
Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think.
Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged?
Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.
Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine
Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown
University School of Foreign Service in 1956.
Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree?
Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service.
Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here
because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the
background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were
both members of the Marine Corps.
Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and
I will interrupt with questions.
Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I
was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that
confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at
El Toro?
Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I
believe, 5 miles removed.
El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of
"LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that
in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a
radar base.
In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training
officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came
into contact with Oswald.
Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time?
Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.
Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to
train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some
of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as
all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their
contemporaries and how to get along with them.
I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on
foreign affairs.
Mr. ELY. Who told you this?
Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had
served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some
court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't
know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually
knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my
crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine.
Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the
relationship between you and Oswald.
Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding
officer?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a
lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that
crew I was the officer in command.
Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew?
Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and
about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed
to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.
Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men
with whom you were in closest contact?
Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a
day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch,
sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night
watch.
During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in.
Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion
to talk to him.
Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of
the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.
Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all
the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well.
Most of them I had served with in Japan.
Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan?
Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played
football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you
a common bond.
Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much
higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are
interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in
working with them to talk with them about all subjects.
You were constantly in communication with the center concerning
aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the
intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them,
standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.
I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well.
Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had
mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there
is any point in going into that any further.
Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you
thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms
of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald
specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or
would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job?
Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General
Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being
there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the
center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes
he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the
board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air
Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning
up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions.
Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a
sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as
they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.
He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got
people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always
appreciate.
Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in
regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his
quarters or his rifle or his uniform?
Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have
occasion to inspect them.
But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I
don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out
that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in
that respect.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of
a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three
inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset
hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say
who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I
believe he was transferred to another hut.
Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially----
Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy.
Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description
of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference
to how he reacted to stress situations.
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency
arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to
myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status
of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the
obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an
obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he
did it, no matter what you told him.
Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with
regard to his job?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable.
Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think
that might be overstating the case in the other direction?
Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal.
Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald
and his fellow enlisted men?
Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes.
Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing
with his peers?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For
better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is
interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get
another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He
read a great deal.
Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed
to a Russian newspaper.
Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was
one printed in the Russian language?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.
Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper?
Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as
gospel--although----
Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a
Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this
presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the
international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.
Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know.
Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he
took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove
it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his
contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.
Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its
ideological content?
Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in
all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many
great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the
international situation.
I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must
be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have
probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well
versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation.
His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign
Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations
throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to
mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates
in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride
in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center,
and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given
situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you
very much."
As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?"
In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about
that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia.
And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there
is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more
knowledge than that man."
And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is
that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the
field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international
political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better
informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international
affairs.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or
situations which he questioned officers about?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.
I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He
was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities
in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there
were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was
against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.
But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a
Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.
Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that
time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our
better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was
not an unpopular belief at that time.
Mr. ELY. What did he say?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a
godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would
take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?
Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him
saying it to anyone else.
Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military
career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone
whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do
you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that,
or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody
interested in other things?
Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all
services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly
shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common
bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't
think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I
believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared
even that companionship with them consistently.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were
associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual
caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared
Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one
interested in serious reading?
Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and
the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am
sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer----
Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy
fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her
out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested
enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related
to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she
referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and
can talk to her.
Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?
Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could
tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his
personality?
Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than
that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which
Oswald did extensive reading in?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.
Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the
names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed
to you, have been a mistake?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some
philosophers.
Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?
Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these
gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the
philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.
I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown.
But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew
the name, and that was it.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?
Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later
action.
Mr. ELY. Hegel.
Did he mention Marx?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx,
but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support
anything in particular.
Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who
interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political
philosophy?
Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages
other than Russian and English?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak
Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever
cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't
believe he had a command of Spanish.
Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding
German at all?
Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out
of the Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school
anywhere?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that
he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all
officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly
had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.
There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I
believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to
attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and
the Secret Service.
Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend
school in any foreign country?
Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had
turned up in Moscow.
Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all
anywhere outside the country.
Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?
Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently
that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so
suddenly.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took
place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any
other country specifically with regard to injustices?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in
talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or
something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that
I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or
wherever I was talking with them about.
But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the
extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned
that that was unjust.
Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in
Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the
Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and
Central American family, and their regime as a family.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?
Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be
done about problems in Asia or Latin America?
Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority,
particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent
such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in
positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the
Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.
Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?
Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an
inordinate interest in competitive sports.
Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I
believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make
calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say,
a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A
quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But,
at any rate, he stopped playing.
Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.
Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the
Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can
introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are
being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.
Were you the captain of this team?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a
gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in
the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And
Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that
time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been
out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and
was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember
him.
Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?
Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all
through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.
Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I
think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had
a slender build.
Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed
and agility?
Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.
Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be
a really good football player?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high
school in a good high school.
Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?
Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall,
although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated
to a normal degree.
Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought
he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such,
there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team
spirit.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's
quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.
Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this
inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and
that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy.
I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks
incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his
contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.
Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as
anybody else?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's
proficiency in firing the rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at
that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If
he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard,
I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training
officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men
in.
Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a
rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine
Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are
reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you
can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the
score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.
I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he
had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume
that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times
out of 10.
Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the
weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?
Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite
difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards
distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what
is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target
you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO
or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not
impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no
reason to suspect that he did.
Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to
know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point,
and punch the target before the NCO got there?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day.
For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of
qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target
area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you
were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of
choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2,"
and so on. So it would be most unusual.
But I suppose it does happen.
Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that
you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the
FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's
characterization?
Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be
disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very
respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious
to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing
with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and
Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar
that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He
could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.
But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects.
And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on
foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an
interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank,
could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking
about.
Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs
because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask
questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a
person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident
to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more
intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself
was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that
he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me,
whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and
was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.
Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of
NCOs and officers?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in
the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and
he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks
inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly
made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.
Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was
brighter than the officers he was talking to?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was
brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of
world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did,
at least in facts.
I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and
learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of
intelligence.
Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any
trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?
Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.
Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline
stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?
Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was
rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that
time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.
Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange.
Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when
she was with him?
Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share
any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international
affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have
known.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the
Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please?
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to
get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas,
his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a
hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a
bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual,
either.
I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I
got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received
word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change
of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.
He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area,
all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and
the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft
in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication
code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense
Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range
of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and
radar.
If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have
told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly
could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally
with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been
able to recall them a month later, either.
Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level
were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a
fairly widespread action?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other
squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously
between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it.
These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.
And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or
whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to
be.
Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter
of course?
Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.
Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which
elicits the change?
Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some
things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is
no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That
had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a
height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it
has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.
It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words,
you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.
He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1,
which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great
distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece
of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and
relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively
safe. He had been schooled on this.
And that kind of stuff you cannot change.
Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance?
Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar
center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.
Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain
admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which
is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all
positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as
plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief.
Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief?
Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the
training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first
choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt.
Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where
Sergeant Brown is.
Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on
active duty in the Marine Corps.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief?
Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If
one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was
senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his
work.
Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I
think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he
could not handle.
Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated
leadership qualities?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader.
Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have
about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide
never to use him as a crew chief again?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief.
Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was
in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any
offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning
transportation?
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could,
including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I
believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him.
Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers?
Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did
not from anyone.
Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them?
Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help.
Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge
through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?
Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just
word around the squadron.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual
discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get
a discharge?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did
know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I
believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that
he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an
only son, and his mother needed help.
Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be
termed mental instability?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field
of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they
might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when
anyone is solely interested in one given thing.
Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly
angry, did he raise his voice?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become
passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in
trying to get you to see what he saw.
Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms
of pounding the table, screaming?
Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically
worked up than people we talk with every day.
Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any
more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he
was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most
guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to
clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times,
et cetera.
I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The
complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his
ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several
instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO
leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a
commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.
Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like
that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't
remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.
Do you recall whether or not he played chess?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some
nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I
won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion
he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable
players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious
beliefs?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he----
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God.
Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all?
Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you
were at Santa Ana?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights.
Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you
particularly interested in girls.
Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you
have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his
desires?
Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in
that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service
for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know
of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as
an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our
conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about
them.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall.
Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor?
Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not.
Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny?
Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times.
Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed?
Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect.
Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you
remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would
suggest an interest in the Soviet Union?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.
However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring
textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they
were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of
these books--I don't recall which one--but say, "Are you familiar with
this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask
about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he
did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in
an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you
what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international
economics.
Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for?
Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.
Mr. ELY. What were they?
Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie.
Mr. ELY. Anything else?
Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.
Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie?
Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the
Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail?
Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether----
Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now?
Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right.
Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana,
but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international
economics, although they might well have been.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana?
Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was
common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood,
or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date
or something.
Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average
marine, or that he took fewer trips?
Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of
the ordinary in that respect.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at
Santa Ana?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors.
Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you?
Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me.
Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything
to you?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That
spelling is strictly phonetic.
Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and
in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with
a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't
ring a bell at all.
Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on
which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and
Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the
personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and
see whether you think----
Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to
say which would be most----
Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them
individually.
Do you remember a man named Thornley?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all.
Mr. ELY. All right.
How about a man named Lewis?
Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all.
Mr. ELY. Botelho?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall
his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by
the nickname, normally enough, of Bo.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call?
Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look
him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a
corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald?
Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with.
Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would characterize Call as being modestly
intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but
in reference to his character concerning his intelligence.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado?
Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He
was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators
to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And
Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very
dependable boy.
Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald?
Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life
than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him;
Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same
crew with Oswald.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization
number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go
back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I
believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair
to say that all the men on the crew would know him?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew
so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in
the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different
light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day
he went home--whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers?
Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him.
Mr. ELY. Osborne?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with
us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually
lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew
him.
Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant
Brown.
Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I
think he is now Captain Trail.
Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I
have already mentioned?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow
named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock
Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area.
Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred
Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him.
Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I
don't know if he would remember Oswald or not.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars?
Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to
drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on
a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not
swear to that.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended
offpost bars or night clubs?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not.
Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount,
less?
Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of
President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail
told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan.
Mr. ELY. But from your own----
Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he
drank to excess.
Mr. ELY. But he did drink some?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the
conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact.
Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the
questions I have for you.
Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to
figure out what sort of a man Oswald was?
Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know
that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also
served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana.
Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it.
The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange
that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana.
Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in
Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on
the phone a couple of times, passing through there.
Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I
don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people
that were there at the same time.
Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended
to ask you.
Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich,
or anything that sounded like that?
Mr. DONOVAN. No.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?"
Mr. DONOVAN. No.
Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf
of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time
and testimony. It has been very helpful.
TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC
The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15
p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by
Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr. ELY. Colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Colonel FOLSOM. I do.
Mr. ELY. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the
President's Commission investigating the assassination of President
Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses
by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission
by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint
Resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness
is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint
resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted
governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you
with these documents, is that correct?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is true.
Mr. ELY. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each
witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in
and give testimony.
You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that
notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here
indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement.
Colonel FOLSOM. It is waived.
Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?
Colonel FOLSOM. Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps.
Mr. ELY. What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir?
Colonel FOLSOM. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel
Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.
Mr. ELY. How long have you held this position?
Colonel FOLSOM. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of an idea of your
background--what you did before you entered the Marine Corps?
Colonel FOLSOM. I was a student.
Mr. ELY. And how long have you been in the Marine Corps?
Colonel FOLSOM. I entered active duty in the Marine Corps 5 August 1935.
Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever
heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.
Mr. ELY. Could you tell us in what connection that was?
Colonel FOLSOM. It was in connection with his record, which was
requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and
they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship,
and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge.
Mr. ELY. I see. And that is the first time you had ever heard of him?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes, sir.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever meet the man?
Colonel FOLSOM. No.
Mr. ELY. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here,
colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald,
but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and
we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test
scores and things like that.
Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition
Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is.
(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1
for identification.)
Colonel FOLSOM. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record
held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine.
Mr. ELY. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you
have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the
upper right-hand corner.
We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page
1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's
scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean.
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there
were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, 24
October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment.
Mr. ELY. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the
abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for?
Colonel FOLSOM. Pay entry base date.
Mr. ELY. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has
been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost
due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol.
In this instance it was days lost due to confinement.
Mr. ELY. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class
swimmer. What does that stand for?
Colonel FOLSOM. Unqualified.
Mr. ELY. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact
that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to
"SA" action.
Colonel FOLSOM. Supervisory authority action in a court-martial.
Mr. ELY. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us
generally what this page of the record is.
Colonel FOLSOM. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record
constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization
to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows
conduct and proficiency markings.
Mr. ELY. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings,
could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned?
Colonel FOLSOM. The Marine Corps marks on a scale of from 0 to 5.0.
Mr. ELY. 5.0 is the maximum grade?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. And what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? Is there no
minimum?
Colonel FOLSOM. No; there is none as such, because the markings are
averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing
regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the
difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under
honorable conditions.
Mr. ELY. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable
discharge would be?
Colonel FOLSOM. I believe--was the question under honorable conditions?
Mr. ELY. Well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge?
Colonel FOLSOM. 4.0.
Mr. ELY. All right.
Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically.
I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the
various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is
labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think
might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an
abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred
to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that
stands for?
Colonel FOLSOM. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company,
Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time.
Mr. ELY. Now, this would have been while he was----
Colonel FOLSOM. He joined on 4 May 1957.
Mr. ELY. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air
Force Base.
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; undergoing duty under instruction.
Mr. ELY. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an
entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that
stand for?
Colonel FOLSOM. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital
Yokosuka, Japan.
Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated
"To Du" would mean return to duty?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is
abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what?
Colonel FOLSOM. That it was a semiannual marking.
Mr. ELY. In other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that is abbreviated "To Cnfd."
Colonel FOLSOM. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence
summary court-martial.
Mr. ELY. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one
abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means?
Colonel FOLSOM. Duty under instruction.
Mr. ELY. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which
I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could
you tell us what that stands for?
Colonel FOLSOM. In this case he was a replacement trainee.
Mr. ELY. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for
replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September
1957 is?
Colonel FOLSOM. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control
Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet
Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address
for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan.
Mr. ELY. And what was the job that he performed?
Colonel FOLSOM. He was an aviation electronics operator.
Mr. ELY. All right. I think that with the help you have given us,
anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the
Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress
of Oswald's service.
Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald
was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military
Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands
for?
Colonel FOLSOM. It is a basic MOS in aviation electronics, I believe.
Mr. ELY. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit
which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of
that entry?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as
to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows
that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing
period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from
the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a
summary court-martial.
Mr. ELY. Is there any way of evaluating his score of 113?
Colonel FOLSOM. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a
composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and
time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established
by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and
individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by
their local organizations.
Mr. ELY. But the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to
time?
Colonel FOLSOM. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate--it is
controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill
the needs of the Marine Corps by--in the varying grades.
Mr. ELY. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice
here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of
Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These
two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one
being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D"
designation.
Can you explain what the difference is?
Colonel FOLSOM. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is
provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It
is a dependency allotment.
The "D" allotment, I believe, is an additional voluntary contribution.
Mr. ELY. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to
send out of his pay?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of
Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some
of the abbreviations found in this record.
Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1
Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course.
Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship
qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The
"B" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are
fired.
Mr. ELY. But both of these courses are such that one can record a score?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a
result of the scores.
In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which
would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a
sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with
the abbreviation "MM" for marksman.
When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is
a correct designation in accordance with the score fired.
Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he
would have been still in basic training at San Diego?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.
Mr. ELY. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what
the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point?
Colonel FOLSOM. It would have been 210.
Mr. ELY. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for
sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which
you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
Mr. ELY. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45
caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated
"FAM." That stands for familiarization?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. And that means that no scores----
Colonel FOLSOM. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the
people with the operation of the weapon.
Mr. ELY. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it
correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the
next highest, and expert would be the highest category?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled
"Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see
hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses
taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he
was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these
two abbreviations?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in
aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force
Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and
warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks'
duration.
Mr. ELY. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that
under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; it is an Air Force School.
Mr. ELY. And do people from all branches of the service get trained
there?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; we have cross training with all the other services.
Mr. ELY. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record
of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could
you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores
achieved by Oswald mean?
Colonel FOLSOM. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant
General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation.
Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that
he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates
"poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This,
again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor."
Mr. ELY. This 4 means he got four more questions right than wrong?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses,
and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong.
His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall
he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout.
Mr. ELY. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of
classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into
the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was
composed of six examinations.
Oswald's scores I see range from as low as 92 to as high as 125.
Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are,
and what Oswald's scores in each of them means?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. I will take this in sequence.
The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral
II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories
throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest.
The abbreviation "AC"--arithmetical computation--and the score Roman
numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class.
"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that
he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area.
"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he
was the bottom portion of the third group in this category.
Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test
score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a
result of Oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman
III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107.
Mr. ELY. Would you explain the one designated "RCT"?
Colonel FOLSOM. The abbreviation "RCT" is--represents radio code test.
There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one
being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to
109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group
III.
Mr. ELY. Which is the lowest group.
Colonel FOLSOM. Which is the lowest.
Mr. ELY. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary
court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial,
and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about
one sentence which to me seems to be in error.
According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title
"Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of
Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be
suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner
vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be
remitted without further action."
However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was
noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second
court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June
27, 1958."
So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated.
Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is
that the suspension of the sentence was vacated?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence
was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry.
Mr. ELY. Right.
So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and
we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence
was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated.
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
Mr. ELY. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was
court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the
sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the
sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial?
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the
first sentence.
Mr. ELY. That is correct. Thank you.
On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second
court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general
self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each
charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he
was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of"
Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and
that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found
not guilty?
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found
guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the
Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the
specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking
words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II,
which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military
Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty
on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff
noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him.
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which
is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958,
indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour
had been received and approved.
Must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is
involved?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the
individual concerned.
Mr. ELY. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer
than he was scheduled to have been over there?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.
Mr. ELY. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been
approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958.
Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for
this cancellation was?
Colonel FOLSOM. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates
that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a
result of the disciplinary action.
Mr. ELY. So we might guess that because this followed his second
court-martial, that was the reason?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; and it followed it very closely.
Mr. ELY. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to
ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating
to one event.
On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro
for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro
from Yuma.
Is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went
to Yuma?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS,
El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense
exercise, the first one held during 1959.
Mr. ELY. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that
might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in
the Marine Corps.
It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career,
private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am
I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a
private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your
E-4 is a corporal?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. This is under the new rank structure.
Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I
want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is
indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and
July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What
does that stand for?
Colonel FOLSOM. Confined, serving sentence--it should be summary
court-martial, but let me look at the record.
Mr. ELY. You mean there should be three "S's"?
Colonel FOLSOM. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a
special in here.
Yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial.
Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a
document relating to the high school level general educational
development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page
106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests,
and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile.
However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was
tested were. Could you tell us what they are?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One,
English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences;
four, physical sciences; five, mathematics.
Mr. ELY. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off
were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in
which it appears on the report.
Mr. ELY. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald
received a rating of satisfactory?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory
or unsatisfactory.
Mr. ELY. Right.
Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the
lower right-hand corner.
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "D"
with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory.
Mr. ELY. So he could have received a higher rating than he did?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.
Mr. ELY. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a
rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was
in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of
these numbers insofar as you can?
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours
devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics,
two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and
54 on the second.
The last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject.
Twenty-five hours physics, score, 75 and 77.
Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are
on a scale of 100?
Colonel FOLSOM. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume
they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score.
Mr. ELY. I see.
Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right,
which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous
test carried out to three digits without the decimal point.
Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This report was prepared on an
electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret.
Mr. ELY. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the
individual scores.
Colonel FOLSOM. Do you want to go through all of these?
Mr. ELY. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have
explained the principle by which the scores are recorded.
Colonel FOLSOM. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is
a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered
by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading
and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and
pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT".
These are raw scores.
Mr. ELY. The ones designated RV, AC, AR, and PA?
Colonel FOLSOM. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which
converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification
test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery,
and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation
is quite close.
The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column
indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine.
Mr. ELY. All right.
Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already
been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with
the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated
Exhibit 239.
This exhibit is a photostatic copy.
Could you tell us, Colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy?
Colonel FOLSOM. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps
Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1.
Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are
sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification.
They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the
individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the
weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in
the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings
are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is,
he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the
same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may
require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired.
Mr. ELY. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his
firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will
do well on his record firing?
Colonel FOLSOM. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even
on the day that he fires for record.
In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather
limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the
purpose for which it was designed.
Mr. ELY. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook,
assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning
the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at
200 yards slow fire--on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand
position----
Mr. ELY. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in
Oswald's scorebook?
Colonel FOLSOM. Right--well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the
three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them--all 10
shots within the four ring.
Mr. ELY. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in
terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than
that if he were a good shot?
Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should
get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position.
Mr. ELY. And what was his score?
Colonel FOLSOM. Well, total shown on page 22 would be--he got a score
of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his
record book.
On Wednesday, he got a score of 38, improved four points.
Do you want to compute these?
Mr. ELY. I don't see any point in doing this page by page.
I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we
could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his
career he was not a particularly outstanding shot.
Colonel FOLSOM. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates--as a
matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to
achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter.
Mr. ELY. In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for
qualification?
Colonel FOLSOM. I would say so.
Mr. ELY. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony
that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are
ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you
about the ones that seemed most confusing to me.
Can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the
record?
Colonel FOLSOM. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There
are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic
copy contains everything that is in the original record.
And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those
clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary
court-martial records.
Mr. ELY. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention
during your testimony today?
Colonel FOLSOM. No; I do not.
Mr. ELY. All right.
In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you
very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful.
TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN
The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on
May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John
Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr. ELY. Will you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.
Mr. ELY. Please be seated.
My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses
pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No.
11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No.
137.
Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a
copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the
rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony
from witnesses.
Is it correct that I have provided you with copies of these documents?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes.
Mr. ELY. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to
3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony.
You were not given 3 days' notice.
However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes,
and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice
requirement.
Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.
Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Captain George Donabedian, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy.
Mr. ELY. And what position exactly do you hold?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine
Corps, Washington, D.C.
Mr. ELY. You are an M.D., is that correct?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; I am.
Mr. ELY. How long have you held the position of staff medical officer?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Since July 1959.
Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever
heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Captain DONABEDIAN. No; I had not.
Mr. ELY. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us
some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald--in other
words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the
man.
Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.
Mr. ELY. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled
"Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1."
(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No.
1" for identification.)
Mr. ELY. Doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is?
Captain DONABEDIAN. This is taken from the health record of the marine.
Mr. ELY. It is, in other words, a photostatic copy----
Captain DONABEDIAN. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each
military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance,
and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service,
which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the
inoculations he receives.
Mr. ELY. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper
right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document,
Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit
No. 1 runs from 132 through 171.
Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147
of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958.
Could you explain it?
Captain DONABEDIAN. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has
noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two
drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown
and very hard. Examination."
Mr. ELY. The copy at that point becomes illegible.
Captain DONABEDIAN. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave
him treatment with mineral oil.
Mr. ELY. And what was the overall diagnosis?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Hemorrhoids was the diagnosis.
Mr. ELY. And what did you say the treatment was?
Captain DONABEDIAN. The treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository.
Mr. ELY. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on
page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we
just referred, and that is the entry dated----
Captain DONABEDIAN. 10-6-57. "Urethritis acute. Nonvenereal."
Mr. ELY. Before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of
10-10-58?
Captain DONABEDIAN. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number
is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on
10-13-58.
Mr. ELY. Do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids?
Captain DONABEDIAN. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel,
or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and
the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding.
Mr. ELY. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through
156 of this exhibit.
I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning.
Captain DONABEDIAN. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has
urethral discharge."
Mr. ELY. Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point----
Captain DONABEDIAN. Then they took a smear.
Mr. ELY. What is the purpose of a smear?
Captain DONABEDIAN. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection,
the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present.
And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A
culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the
sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that
particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug
of choice.
On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the
outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear,"
which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear
taken.
September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to
the lab for a smear.
And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular
morphological resembling neisseria gonococci."
Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which
causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this
germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to
prove this or disprove it.
And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like
400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday
in the p.m., for a repeat smear."
Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat
clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago."
In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this
profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one,
four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture.
Then on September 22----
Mr. ELY. I believe the last item was September 20.
Captain DONABEDIAN. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it
says "September 23" underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture."
The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed
micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that
gives a dark-greenish color discharge.
Mr. ELY. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the
culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can
we tell?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one.
The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the 16th.
Mr. ELY. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out,
you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear
rather than a culture?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a
smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they
treat the patient for gonorrhea.
Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue
chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times
a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given.
And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is.
Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given.
On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took
a smear. And that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were
noted."
The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much
heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To
repeat smear, 1 week."
October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a
smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive
cocci."
This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has
been doing heavy lifting recently."
"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the
urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting
recently."
October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave
him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day.
No--"return in 5 days."
They just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in 5
days.
"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram
positive cocci noted."
The next date is hard to tell. Something--"qid for for 5 days."
The next thing is hard to tell.
Mr. ELY. All right. That entry is illegible.
Captain DONABEDIAN. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list,
9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No.
0303. And in handwriting----
Mr. ELY. That is my handwriting, so we will disregard that.
Captain DONABEDIAN. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present
illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging
sensation on urination. Past history--previous venereal disease.
Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn
discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative
intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling
gonorrhea."
Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not
absolutely be certain.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that under this previous history column it
mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to
this time?
Captain DONABEDIAN. At another time, in his past, whenever that would
be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't
notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the
service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different
kinds.
Mr. ELY. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to
any prior case during his military career?
Captain DONABEDIAN. No; except those that we reported within those
dates.
Treatment was procaine penicillin, 900,000 units, intramuscularly for 3
days.
Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000
units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units.
Mr. ELY. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than
handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156
is something of a summary.
Captain DONABEDIAN. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and
discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for
statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have
been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and
observation.
Mr. ELY. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony
as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a
typical case of gonorrhea?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; it does.
Mr. ELY. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem
that he did have gonorrhea at this point?
Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.
Mr. ELY. These medical records also contain entries relating to the
gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber
pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are
self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals,
Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he
was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into
at this point.
Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his
medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned
which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal
marine's complaints.
Captain DONABEDIAN. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which
many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other
infection, otitis media, in 1957.
Mr. ELY. That reference appears at page 150.
Captain DONABEDIAN. And they give him penicillin, 600,000 units, 5 days.
I see nothing else.
Mr. ELY. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping
to explain these records for us.
Captain DONABEDIAN. Thank you.
AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO
The following affidavit was executed by James Anthony Botelho on June
3, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
_County of San Benito, ss_:
I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California,
being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957,
to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March
to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control
Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California.
Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train
Castro's troops because of the money he would earn.
I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his
discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless
spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with
others.
Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe
he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that
Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions
like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines
kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him
up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as
"Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to
"American capitalist warmongers."
At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is
that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in
the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised
when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia.
Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either
unironed or sloppily ironed.
As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I
went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa
Ana.
Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what
sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have
some of the classical records we purchased together. I recall that he
particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played
chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player,
although he was better than I was.
It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed
his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no
effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him"
in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This
surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was
likely to get better results from him by treating him politely.
I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for
nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks.
It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him;
for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana.
I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the
Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out."
Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be
intoxicated.
I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall
any remarks concerning his religious beliefs.
I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I
believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason
unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of
his receiving any visitors.
Signed this 3d day of June 1964, at San Juan Bautista, Calif.
(S) James Anthony Botelho,
JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO.
AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA
The following affidavit was executed by Donald Peter Camarata on May
19, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
_County of Santa Cruz, ss_:
I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California,
being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the
following military installations while we were both members of
the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi,
Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana,
California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville,
Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in
the same unit at that time.
While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald
was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name
written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian
songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks.
Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my
return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some
way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal
knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of
this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one
person.
Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines.
I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he
simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post.
Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently
resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average
Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However,
he generally followed such orders.
Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's
intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe
he was intelligent.
I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian.
I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors--either
the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant--asked Oswald why he read this paper.
I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish
or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or
Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women
on his part; or of his receiving any visitors.
Oswald was nicknamed "Oz".
Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at Santa Cruz, Calif.
(S) Donald Peter Camarata,
DONALD PETER CAMARATA.
AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR
The following affidavit was executed by Peter Francis Connor on May 22,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF CONNECTICUT,
_County of New Haven, ss_:
I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being
first duly sworn, depose and say:
That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi,
Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he
was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he
wore an expert rifleman's medal.
I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist
statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he
characterized as the greatest man in history.
Although Oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a Robert
Demurs--I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was.
Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did
they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of
his superiors with insolent remarks.
I have no recollection to how much Oswald drank.
I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal,
but I do not remember what sort of books he read.
Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle
name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it.
I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his
attitude toward women, or what he did off post.
Signed this 22d day of May, 1964, at West Haven, Conn.
(S) Peter Francis Connor,
PETER FRANCIS CONNOR.
AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF
The following affidavit was executed by Allen D. Graf on June 15, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF NEW YORK,
_County of Erie, ss_:
I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first
duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961.
While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon
Sergeant.
Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to
resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing
to listen to the views of others.
Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald
concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He
explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the
depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to
eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a
premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around."
Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or
opposing capitalism.
It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because
he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the
Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly.
Oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports.
It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in
the "high expert" range.
Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had
a temper--in check.
I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of
where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious
beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any
dates.
Signed this 15th day of June, 1964, at Buffalo, N.Y.
(S) Allen D. Graf,
ALLEN D. GRAF.
AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL
The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF LOUISIANA,
_Parish of New Orleans, ss_:
I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana,
being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957,
until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey
Oswald.
I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to
rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of
authority.
While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as
"Hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel."
This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation.
It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this
name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no
specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name.
Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I
did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or
international affairs.
While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming
intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care
whether or not he got back to the post on time.
Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to
complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines.
Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know
what his activities off post were.
I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames.
Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time,
I am unable to remember Oswald's being there.
Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La.
(S) John Rene Heindel,
JOHN RENE HEINDEL.
AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.
The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on
May 15, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF FLORIDA,
_County of Duval, ss_:
I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville
Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately
October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in
MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part
of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore
during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also
with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I
was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that
at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts.
Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I
know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away
from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was
homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am
not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if
ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came
to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual.
Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine
did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or
situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my
opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he--unlike Delgado--was
not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention.
I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination
of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college
education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a
college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he
once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School.
Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I
knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian;
the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this.
I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion.
Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting
into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which
would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his
studying either Spanish or German.
Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what
sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with
Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I
remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian
newspaper.
Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his
being called "Oz".
Signed this 15th day of May, 1964, at Duval County, Fla.
(S) David Christie Murray, Jr.,
DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.
AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL EDWARD MURPHY
The following affidavit was executed by Paul Edward Murphy on May 16,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
_County of Orange, ss_:
I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa
Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to
September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at
Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald.
The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in
Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where
it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took
it to Corregidor.
Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he
had received from superiors, but followed them.
Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or
ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in
sympathy with Castro.
One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining
cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot
locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened,
Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald
was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was
not authorized to possess.
While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed
in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The
Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as
they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as
being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's
receiving other literature of a Socialist nature.
I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was
overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or
German.
Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average
in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however,
personally quite neat.
Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament
was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him,
but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight.
It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a
great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books
he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific
recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I
remember that Oswald--like everyone else--watched Dick Clark's American
Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess.
I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs.
I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While
overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other
Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where
he went on those occasions when he did leave.
Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which
was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname
for no reason other than that it was his middle name.
I do not recall Oswald's receiving any visitors.
Signed this 16th day of May, 1964, at Santa Ana, Calif.
(S) Paul Edward Murphy,
PAUL EDWARD MURPHY.
AFFIDAVIT OF HENRY J. ROUSSEL, JR.
The following affidavit was executed by Henry J. Roussel, Jr., on May
25, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF LOUISIANA,
_Parish of Baton Rouge, ss_:
I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge,
Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:
That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for
approximately three or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in
Santa Ana, California.
On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen
Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working
for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in
order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's
study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with
Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to
studying Russian, Oswald had studied German.
I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On
occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer
to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me--and, as far as I know, to my
fellow Marines--that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us
responded by calling _him_ "Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to
recordings of Russian songs.
My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite
neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders
that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded
Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught
himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any
dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt.
I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no
recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or
trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper,
and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.")
I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his
jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald.
Signed this 25th day of May, 1964, at Baton Rouge, La.
(S) Henry J. Roussel, Jr.,
HENRY J. ROUSSEL, Jr.
AFFIDAVIT OF MACK OSBORNE
The following affidavit was executed by Mack Osborne on May 18, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS
_County of Lubbock, ss_:
I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly
sworn, depose and say:
That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine
Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey
Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him.
Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his
free time reading papers printed in Russian--which I believe he bought
in Los Angeles--with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe
he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember
their names.
I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other
men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement
to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him
famous. In retrospect, it is my belief--although he said nothing to
this effect--that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this
statement.
Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did
the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow
Marines.
My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability.
Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks
inspections.
Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they
asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating
that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave
him alone.
Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me
that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan,
he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle.
I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I
remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as
of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan.
I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not
recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba.
Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines
sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he
took such accusations in fun.
Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the
idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest
to others that he was.
Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of
books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no
recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would
discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions.
Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was
part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although
sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had
been to Los Angeles--implying that he had simply gone to break the
monotony.
I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called
"Oswald" or--by those who knew him well--"Lee Harvey".
I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.
Signed this 18th day of May, 1964, at Lubbock, Tex.
(S) Mack Osborne,
MACK OSBORNE.
AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD DENNIS CALL
The following affidavit was executed by Richard Dennis Call on May 20,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA
_County of Northampton, ss_:
I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first
duly sworn, depose and say:
That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September,
1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959,
I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than
Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the
acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to,
and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked
to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were
stationed together.
It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never
talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what
he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was
just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends.
Oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning Russian.
Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he
read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of
time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were
of approximately equal ability.
Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs,
Oswald seldom, if ever, participated.
During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many
members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed
to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of
Russian classical pieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would
play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?"
I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald
always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that
he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking
about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich."
However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to
the Soviet Union or Cuba.
On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a
scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to
attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer.
I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember
anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base
movie theatre.
Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well
as the average radar operator.
Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's
Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated.
Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than
did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff
Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my
opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try
to hide his lack of enthusiasm.
I have no recollection of Oswald's studying either Spanish or German.
It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his
refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswald _wanted_ to
be thought of as intelligent.
Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine
from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had
an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He
succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to
anger Delgado.
Oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and Stoic.
Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the
unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of
Oswald's receiving any visitors.
Signed this 20th day of May, 1964, at Helltown, Pa.
(S) Richard Dennis Call,
RICHARD DENNIS CALL.
AFFIDAVIT OF ERWIN DONALD LEWIS
The following affidavit was executed by Erwin Donald Lewis on June 6,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
_Orange County, ss_:
I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being
first duly sworn, depose and say:
That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine
Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey
Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance.
Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did
not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he
seldom left the base.
It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he
could read, write, and speak Russian.
I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I
heard--although of this I am not completely certain--that he had a
subscription to that publication.
Signed this 6th day of June, 1964.
(S) Erwin Donald Lewis,
ERWIN DONALD LEWIS.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN ISAACS
The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S.
courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on
the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the
taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure
each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and
joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the
rules governing the taking of testimony.
The Commission will provide you with a set of those documents.
Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give
testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or
not, but----
Mr. ISAACS. They told me yesterday about it. It's quite all right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume
that you do wish to waive it.
Mr. ISAACS. I waive, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, sir.
We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which
you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family
upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962.
Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you
state your full name for the record?
Mr. ISAACS. Martin Isaacs.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. ISAACS. 1669 Grand Avenue, Bronx, New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed at the present time?
Mr. ISAACS. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center,
Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you so employed in June of 1962?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Isaacs?
Mr. ISAACS. I was born in Hungary, December 12, 1904.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. ISAACS. I was about 2 or 3 years old. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a citizen of this country?
Mr. ISAACS. I am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents?
Mr. ISAACS. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received
derivative citizenship.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you employed by the department of welfare?
Mr. ISAACS. Since May 12, 1934.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New
York; is that correct?
Mr. ISAACS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee
Harvey Oswald and his family?
Mr. ISAACS. I do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the best recollection that you have
concerning that event?
Mr. ISAACS. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family
was in the Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the
Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this.
My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to
go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time.
He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to
ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would
be needed to help this family return to Texas.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had been informed at that time that they desired to
return to Texas?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at
the moment--I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who
handled the family inside of our intake--told us that this family was
in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the
time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a
repatriated family.
In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were
repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent
here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they
are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir?
Mr. ISAACS. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who
was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic
circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself
there, and so they go--either they go directly to our Embassy in the
country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the
Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and
so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances
they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be
returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we
did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the
role that I played in this as I remember--using my memory here----
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go
into that.
Mr. ISAACS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family
was a repatriated family?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information
from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake
worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all
these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life,
and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned.
When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs.
Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social
Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts.
The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean
Elliott.
Mr. LIEBELER. She is with the New York State Department----
Mr. ISAACS. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called
the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course,
we understand that this is the means they used to get the information,
and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is
relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us,
yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually
happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were.
Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available
to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return.
In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get
enough information in our application blank to show that there was a
brother--I believe it was Robert--who lived in Texas, and I made a
telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with
his wife--I don't remember her first name--and I told her that Mr.
Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to
Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this
cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived
already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately
said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this
money--I don't remember the amount that was involved.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone
call?
Mr. ISAACS. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it
in their presence.
Now, when I got this information, and she told me--her name was also
Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say--she told me that this money
would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had
with Mr. Oswald. I--excuse me----
Mr. LIEBELER. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and
spoke to his wife?
Mr. ISAACS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she told you that she would call her husband and find
out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back?
Mr. ISAACS. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm
uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I
will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's
the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back.
In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We
always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they
don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and
told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in
and told the Oswalds about this--Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak
English--at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to speak to her?
Mr. ISAACS. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single
word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told
him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was
really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept
this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income,
and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our
policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request
that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet
these expenses, if they can.
Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the
money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our
decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our
office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and
asking for the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had done this without telling him----
Mr. ISAACS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it?
Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we
can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the
relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm
not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got
his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they
usually get about relatives.
Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This
is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and
somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these
funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are
requesting to return to.
Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us.
Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the
administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what
we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr.
Oswald herself.
I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald,
although I don't know just what had transpired between them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference?
Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him.
Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott
of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed
Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we
proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that
these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on
that subject yourself?
Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him
was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we
were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after
Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I
did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some
hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could
be made for his return the next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York
overnight that night?
Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that
the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I
believe it was.
Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him
at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember
exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at
the hotel, as I recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case,
Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?
Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I
believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated
or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that
in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee
Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the
next day, do you remember?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall
that at all, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on
one day?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that
I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office?
Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is
that correct?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother,
Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn
from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is
that correct?
Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his
return from Russia?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection
with this matter?
Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that
you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald
had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by
Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that
they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like
that to the FBI agent?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this
is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated
around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with
Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that
Oswald had said that?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as
this to the intake worker when he came into the office?
Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes,
sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that
statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the
office, that Oswald----
Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as
I remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department
of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald
case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of
Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled
"History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a
clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and
I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would,
so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.
Mr. ISAACS. Sure.
(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked
Exhibit 1.)
Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the
files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?
Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared
at a time when a client appears in your office?
Mr. ISAACS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee
Oswald?
Mr. ISAACS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource
Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually
filled out by an applicant.
Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department.
Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it
not?
Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource
consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that
receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants
further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation,
but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each
place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.
Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records
of the resource consultant; is that right?
Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary"
as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16,
1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr.
Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the
resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald
case?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of
Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum
from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll,
supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962,
relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and
family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the
memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the
same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.
(Witness complies.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott?
Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott.
Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State
Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize
that, do you not?
Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you
yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact
that you had with him that you haven't told us about?
Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was
different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him,
which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited
bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always
request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because
she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get
involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and
we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal
Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all
expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring
it to the attention of the administrator.
But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can
recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in
that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we
assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some
other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along
with their luggage, et cetera.
The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking
his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior
of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office
that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she
brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child
and----
Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To
feed the child?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention
of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it
was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the
behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?
Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather
severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time.
He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the
decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't
get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They
accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they
are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this
case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment,
and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that
he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the
administrator.
Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume
because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary
to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our
section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we
used.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this
incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at
this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this
report?
Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say
is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that
the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds
that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and
just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of
Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen
the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified
without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was
somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.
At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this
Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is
her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that
she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped
to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone
conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled
the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out
of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave
it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read
it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the
FBI.
Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am
sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the
Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon
and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have.
It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has
cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We
appreciate it very much.
ISAACS. We are only too happy to help.
TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES
The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E.
Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to
tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. BATES. I do.
Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not?
Mrs. BATES. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional--I have been. My
name is Pauline.
Mr. JENNER. Pauline Virginia--isn't it?
Mrs. BATES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is Pauline Virginia Bates.
Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff
for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized
by the Commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries
of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the
Commission.
Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee
Rankin, general counsel for the Commission?
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive
order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number
11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137,
authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the
Rules of Procedure of the Commission?
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request?
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed
papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and
circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the
assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States,
and any contacts on your part with any of the parties.
We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee
Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes
of his?
Mrs. BATES. They weren't transcribed; they were copied.
Mr. JENNER. You copied them?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed
them from longhand into typing?
Mrs. BATES. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were
written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so.
Mrs. BATES. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag
paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could
find.
Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside now?
Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth?
Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.
Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession?
Mrs. BATES. I'm a legal public stenographer.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer?
Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth, 10 years--a little over 10 years.
Mr. JENNER. And is there a difference between being a legal public
stenographer and a public stenographer?
Mrs. BATES. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth
that has legal training.
Mr. JENNER. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public
stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law
work?
Mrs. BATES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have
done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like
that.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American?
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir--Forest Grove, Oreg.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area?
Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.
Mr. JENNER. And you came from where?
Mrs. BATES. Oakland, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your business or occupation when you were in
Oakland, Calif.?
Mrs. BATES. Legal stenographer--legal secretary.
Mr. JENNER. That has always been your--insofar as you have had a
business or occupation--it's been that?
Mrs. BATES. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards.
Mr. JENNER. Out on the coast?
Mrs. BATES. Richmond. I have also been a waitress.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not
intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you
are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going
too far.
Mrs. BATES. I don't have anything to hide.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I'm sure you don't.
During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have
occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. BATES. He was known to me as Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so
we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the
person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand
to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. BATES. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that
acquaintanceship arose.
Mrs. BATES. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my
name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one
in the public stenographers.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he attired on that occasion?
Mrs. BATES. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type
jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket.
Mr. JENNER. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on?
Mrs. BATES. No; didn't have a shirt on.
Mr. JENNER. No shirt?
Mrs. BATES. Just a little white T-shirt--undershirt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. It was in June.
Mr. JENNER. In June? What time of the day or night was it?
Mrs. BATES. It was in the morning. Let's see--I turned those records
over to the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me your best recollection.
Mrs. BATES. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on
the 18th of June 1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What was said by him and by you?
Mrs. BATES. He asked if I could do some typing for him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself first?
Mrs. BATES. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk
in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said,
"Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was--that he was--then, he
told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what
your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you say?
Mrs. BATES. I said it was either 2-1/2 an hour or a dollar a page.
Mr. JENNER. A page being 8-1/2 by 11--letter-size sheets?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the
work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he
brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, I think it was
10 by 14 or something--one of those large ones. And he said, "I have
some notes here"----
Mr. JENNER. I have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that----
Mrs. BATES. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--but I'm holding this up only for size.
Mrs. BATES. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little
wider.
Mr. JENNER. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]--it's 15
inches.
Mrs. BATES. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time
to, you know, send abstracts out in.
Mr. JENNER. That's 15 by 9.
Mrs. BATES. Well, I am sure, as I remember it--of course, now, this was
some time ago--it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15--and it looks
like what I use.
Mr. JENNER. And it had a flap on it?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are
Carrollton Clasp or something like that.
He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I
looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?"
He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these
notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin.
Mr. JENNER. We fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office.
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He
said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are
handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil."
He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em
because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English."
So, we agreed that I would do it--but I hadn't seen them yet.
Mr. JENNER. You hadn't seen the notes yet?
Mrs. BATES. Huh-uh.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion?
Mrs. BATES. Yes. He had it with him.
Mr. JENNER. What agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do
it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate?
Mrs. BATES. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious
to get on it.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you become anxious to get on it?
Mrs. BATES. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had
notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he
had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I
thought he was just a kid.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school
students.
And then I started asking him some questions--"Why did you go to
Russia?"--and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some
of em he wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was
said on that occasion.
Mrs. BATES. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence.
Mr. JENNER. Okay.
Mrs. BATES. We agreed that I would start typing the notes--and he
wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon--he
wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't want to leave----
Mrs. BATES. I couldn't keep a copy of anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did you agree that you would do the job under those
circumstances?
Mrs. BATES. That's what he wanted--and my customers are always right.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said,
"It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?"
And he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the Marine Corps
and had taken elementary Russian--a course in elementary Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. BATES. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He
wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to
drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the
State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange
student--if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes--I didn't
know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that.
He said, "No"--that the State Department finally agreed to let him go
over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa
to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him
in case he got in trouble or anything.
So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that.
And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought
out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even
this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large
pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten
in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when
he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working
conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia.
Mr. JENNER. His writings were bitter against working conditions?
Mrs. BATES. And living conditions. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say when he had prepared these notes?
Mrs. BATES. Just whenever he could.
Mr. JENNER. When in Russia?
Mrs. BATES. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled
them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over
the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of
course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes?
Mrs. BATES. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in
the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time----
Mr. JENNER. Were these 3 successive days?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th.
Mr. JENNER. Did he spend substantially all day with you?
Mrs. BATES. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days.
Mr. JENNER. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was
there?
Mrs. BATES. I worked. And--uh--I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages,
single-spaced.
Mr. JENNER. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were
having some trouble interpreting these notes?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was
partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it--I mean, translate it
for me. And--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. A lot of it was
scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on
it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word
phonetically _surreptiously_], he just had to do it when Marina would
cover for him while he was doing this.
Mr. JENNER. Marina would cover for him?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so
people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to
you, that he was making these notes?
Mrs. BATES. Well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch
for him so that nobody would know that he was making them.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. Kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing
this--because he could have got in trouble.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. He--well, there wasn't much time
to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that.
And he was very cool and----
Mr. JENNER. Cool? You mean reserved?
Mrs. BATES. Cold.
Mr. JENNER. Cold?
Mrs. BATES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Very matter of fact?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you
asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to
answer it, he'd just shut up.
Mr. JENNER. He'd just ignore you?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well,
I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by
the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have
lived out in that part of town."
He said, "Arlington Heights."
So--that's--that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing
else to say. In other words--"Just don't say anything more."
And--uh--I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his
mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked
it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it
was too rich.
Mr. JENNER. He said that she had become ill?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something,
because they hadn't had enough food in a long time.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was that they----
Mrs. BATES. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think, when----
Mr. JENNER. Well, he arrived June 12--so, he was only--when he reached
your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days.
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort
Worth papers which witness brought with her].
Mr. JENNER. Well, I will in a moment.
I want to get from you--what was his attitude toward Russia?
Mrs. BATES. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that
goes. But these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and
the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "Anything you
hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all
propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These
May Day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go.
It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and
you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all
you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't
have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after
dark."
And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once
mentioned the word "Communist."
Mr. JENNER. Either in his notes or orally to you?
Mrs. BATES. He just said "the party."
Mr. JENNER. The Party? Those are the words he used--the expression,
rather?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because
there was always a party person around and he'd report you.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the
translation and the notes--to read them.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to
become a citizen of Russia?
Mrs. BATES. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said
that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a 2-year visa and,
of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted
to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go
ahead and we'll send her to you."
"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again."
So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so
much cain until they finally let him.
Mr. JENNER. Raised cain with whom?
Mrs. BATES. The Russians.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. He wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave
until they let her go.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the
Government of the United States?
Mrs. BATES. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward
the United States?
Mrs. BATES. No; I've thought and thought--and, of course, I've been
asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got
10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't
talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into
detail on them. Conversations--he had actual conversations that he had
had with different people over there.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, he had?
Mrs. BATES. If you could find those notes, I tell you--they were
fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"--was what it was. And they were
coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence.
I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence
according to city and dates and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. How was his spelling?
Mrs. BATES. Well, the English was fair.
Mr. JENNER. The spelling?
Mrs. BATES. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. He was an accurate speller?
Mrs. BATES. Fair.
Mr. JENNER. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was
misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But
there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but
it's----
Mr. JENNER. I am--when I have my secretary.
Mrs. BATES. Yeah [laughter].
College students are notoriously bad spellers.
Mr. JENNER. Particularly law students.
Mrs. BATES. Well--no--particularly psychology majors. They're terrible!
Mr. JENNER. Did you type all of his notes?
Mrs. BATES. No; not even a third of them.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me that circumstance.
Mrs. BATES. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was--uh--quite
nervous. Uh--the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk
and--uh--if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day,
he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting
to know where I was--and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said,
"Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8
hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I
can't let you go on."
And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of
them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he
could pay me.
And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a
$10 bill out of his pocket and walked out.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or
did he take them back with him at night?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he
never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed--even the
carbon paper.
Mr. JENNER. Even the carbon paper?
Mrs. BATES. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper.
He did tell me that--I think it was the second day--that there was
a man in Fort Worth--and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've
scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--I just saw the
letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put
into book form--manuscript form.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your
recollection?
Mrs. BATES. No. Uh--I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it
didn't register with me.
Mr. JENNER. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer?
Mrs. BATES. He said he was an engineer--he told me that. But there's
lots of engineers in----
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.
Mrs. BATES. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes
published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and
things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to.
And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the
man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes.
I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee told you that this other person----
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh, this engineer.
Mr. JENNER. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had
read all the notes.
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not.
Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes."
And the man could read and speak Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. That much he did tell me.
And I just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real
nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to
say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never
showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife?
Mrs. BATES. Yes--uh--some.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. BATES. That--uh--she loved America and had wanted to come and that
she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and
stay. And that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and
the shops--and that New York had just astounded her.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. And Texas climate--uh--was really good for her.
Mr. JENNER. The climate, you mean?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
And--uh--he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had
a child.
Mr. JENNER. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned?
Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I didn't know he had any.
Mr. JENNER. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point
at which he had married Marina?
Mrs. BATES. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did.
Mr. JENNER. What impression do you have as to the period of time in
Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed?
Mrs. BATES. Well, it was on Minsk and--uh--that one that starts with
"K"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he
was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could
get the time and get away from people.
And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together
in just a few months. It was too detailed.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. I see.
And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes?
Mrs. BATES. About--from the pile. I don't know how much more there was,
really, because they were all sizes--the paper was.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance?
Mrs. BATES. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced
pages.
Mr. JENNER. That was letter size?
Mrs. BATES. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.
Mrs. BATES. I wish I could remember more about them but--uh--I think my
legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when
you're not suppose to remember things.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia
and the terrible working conditions.
They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort
Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing].
Mr. JENNER. They are?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final
edition.
Mr. JENNER. I see. But the text of the story is the same?
Mrs. BATES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the
time?
Mrs. BATES. Well, after I--uh--after he left, a short time afterward,
Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press.
Mr. JENNER. That's the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and
talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said,
"By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And
the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be
able to help him."
So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave
me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. And they tried to contact him but couldn't.
Mr. JENNER. Could not contact----
Mrs. BATES. Lee.
I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something
like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he
was real worried about it, because he needed one.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help
him find a job.
Mr. JENNER. And they were unable to contact him?
Mrs. BATES. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home
several times--oh, I think, two or three times, she said--one of the
reporters did.
Mr. JENNER. And when was this?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work.
Mr. JENNER. I see. In the summer of 1962?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; he was still out--I guess he was still out
there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused
assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that
the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had
just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could
have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until Caroline
called me.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh; that day?
Mrs. BATES. That night of the assassination.
And wondered, she said--I was out at my club--and she said, "Have you
seen any television or listened to any radios?"
And I said, "No."
She said, "Well, have you got a television there?"
And I said, "Yes."
She said, "Turn it on--and then call me back."
So, I did. And there he was.
Mr. JENNER. And the person you saw on television--this would be the
night of the assassination?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee
Oswald----
Mrs. BATES. Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of
June?
Mrs. BATES. 1962.
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And you were firm in your recognition of that person?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone
would--you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew
that's who it was.
That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was
perusing again].
Mr. JENNER. These first two pages?
Mrs. BATES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and
talked with you?
Mrs. BATES. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see--Thanksgiving was
the following week?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?"
I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm
advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do."
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. Because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then
even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before
Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all
Wednesday afternoon and talked. So--it wasn't any spur of the moment
thing.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that.
Mrs. BATES. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3
days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because
of all the things that happened since.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the interim.
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time
forward--that is, the 20th of June, 1962?
Mrs. BATES. I saw him on the street twice after that.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. He didn't see me.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him?
Mrs. BATES. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away.
I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into
this--uh--variety store--Green's, or Grant's, I think it is.
Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him?
Mrs. BATES. No; he was by himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Marina?
Mrs. BATES. No; his mother called me.
Mr. JENNER. When--after the assassination?
Mrs. BATES. The day the story broke.
Mr. JENNER. This story that you've shown me?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had
talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late."
She said, "That is not the property--that is my property."
Mr. JENNER. What is her property?
Mrs. BATES. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do
some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I
didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her."
She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I
said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late."
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever come out to see you?
Mrs. BATES. No.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the only conversation you ever had with her?
Mrs. BATES. Yeah--uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound
document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits
and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The
President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be
some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee
Oswald?
Mrs. BATES. I was.
Mr. JENNER. As you look at those documents--would you leaf through all
the pages I have mentioned?
Mrs. BATES. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard--oh! wait a
minute! wait a minute!
Mr. JENNER. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether
that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that
material?
Mrs. BATES. Right here.
Mr. JENNER. As things that he had in his notes.
Mrs. BATES. (Continuing to peruse notes) Metropole--uh-huh--Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. You are now referring to page 149?
Mrs. BATES. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. You see something that is familiar to you?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the
punched, ring book paper?
Mrs. BATES. I believe some of them were.
Mr. JENNER. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled
left-hand margin?
Mrs. BATES. Every kind of paper imaginable.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of
that character?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; in pencil and pen.
Mr. JENNER. In pencil and in pen?
Mrs. BATES. His pen would run out and he would start in on pencil.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with
the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting,
when you transcribed his notes for 3 days?
Mrs. BATES. It looks very much--as I remember it--it looks very much
like it.
[The witness points to a particular page.]
Mr. JENNER. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems
particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of
U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--very definitely.
Mr. JENNER. What about it awakens your recollection?
Mrs. BATES. Well, as I remember, that's the way his notes started out.
Mr. JENNER. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October
16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin
and Metropole Hotel"?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That is as I remember--as I can remember--and
that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they
started out--just like a story.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BATES. A diary.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take his notes with him, too, when he----
Mrs. BATES. Took everything. He wouldn't allow me to keep anything.
Mr. JENNER. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize
any other of the story type of thing?
Mrs. BATES. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian--on
Russia--his trip to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it
would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes
deal with his subsequent residence in the United States?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And in New Orleans?
Mrs. BATES. Yeah; which I knew nothing about.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred afterward, in any event.
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I
didn't hear of him afterwards.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press--front page story in
The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50,
final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and
which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.
Mrs. BATES. You may have it.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And that is the story----
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff
writer, as you have described?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Is that story accurate as you related it to her?
Mrs. BATES. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend
or correct?
Mrs. BATES. No, sir. It was read to me before it was ever printed twice.
Mr. JENNER. It is Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.
Mrs. BATES. And we did it very carefully to make it all--so we wouldn't
get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI on December 2,
1963?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; let's see, that was a Saturday, wasn't it--December 2?
Mr. JENNER. [Referring to calendar] December 2 was a Monday.
Mrs. BATES. Well, no; they came to my home on Saturday after the story
broke.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you twice?
Mrs. BATES. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They
just--uh--I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over
to them.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Could it have been Saturday, the 30th of November?
Mrs. BATES. It was the following Saturday after the story broke.
Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you
that the story was accurate----
Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir; gave him a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. In every detail, with one exception--which was that Lee
Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department.
Mrs. BATES. Well, that is not in the story.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mrs. BATES. That was what--the radio and television was trying to put
words in my mouth at that time. And--uh--I don't know how many times
I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I
stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten
a visa that I thought--it was just a thought--that maybe he was going
over under the auspices of the State Department--as a student or
something.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. From that, they got that he was a secret agent for the----
If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the
weekend. I had to get them to retract--according to the Associated
Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to
my house over the weekend and interviewed me--and I was on my way to
Washington Monday!
Mr. JENNER. You mean, this past weekend?
Mrs. BATES. Yes; The Star Telegram called me Monday----
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. BATES. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you
are talking about."
And they said, "Well, somebody has just jumped the gun."
And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true.
And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people."
Mr. JENNER. I think some one of the young men around here told me
that--but I put no stock in it, so----
Mrs. BATES. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a
telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody
could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well,
they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the
press.
Mr. JENNER. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit
it one out of three times.
Mrs. BATES. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said
that I had gotten the letter--that they understood I had gotten the
letter and I would be called as a witness--and that was it.
I told them--I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's
not true--and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything
like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were
putting all kinds of words in my mouth.
Mr. JENNER. They hadn't talked to you at all?
Mrs. BATES. Who?
Mr. JENNER. The newspaper people over this weekend?
Mrs. BATES. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill
with bursitis.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you were?
Mrs. BATES. I've got it right now. It's about to drive me crazy.
Mr. JENNER. That's pretty bad stuff.
Mrs. BATES. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean,
that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and
the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the
morning--"Mrs. Bates, can't you add something?"--"Can't you remember
something else?"--"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock
answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth."
Mr. JENNER. That's right.
Mrs. BATES. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I
could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And
that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"--you can't
elaborate on the truth.
Mr. JENNER. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you
think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked
you--insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned?
Mrs. BATES. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have
to keep from giving impressions I've got now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have to----
Mrs. BATES. I mean, disassociate the past and the present. I've got to.
Mr. JENNER. That's right.
Mrs. BATES. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I
have read--since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or
things like that. I don't believe in it.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was
changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during
which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred
during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I
have failed to bring out--that's pertinent here?
Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit
talking when she was changing the tape--except for a cigarette, or
something like that.
I wish I could help you more.
Mr. JENNER. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this
great mystery.
Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your
deposition when it's been transcribed.
Mrs. BATES. May I have a copy?
Mr. JENNER. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to
make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have
the right to waive these privileges if you see fit.
If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think,
be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you
will call in, if I'm not in--we expect to be here--but if I'm not in,
talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders.
Mrs. BATES. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get
a'hold of Agent Howard?
Mr. JENNER. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our
possession.
Mrs. BATES. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the
one that brought me over and he's waiting for me.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, he is?
Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Well, when you are driving back with Agent Howard----
Mrs. BATES. I'll tell him.
Mr. JENNER. You tell Agent Howard to let you know when it is ready.
Mrs. BATES. Okay. Because I don't have a car.
Mr. JENNER. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I
probably won't think about it.
Mrs. BATES. Would there be a possibility of having a copy of it?
Mr. JENNER. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a
copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular
rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your
privilege.
Mrs. BATES. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom--he's a very prominent lawyer
over there--and he said he wanted a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If
you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one.
Mrs. BATES. Uh-uh. Well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of
it.
Mr. JENNER. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy
to anybody--other than yourself.
Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; of my deposition, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement
with the reporter.
Mrs. BATES. I see what you mean.
Mr. JENNER. But, you may not do so for somebody else.
Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; but I mean I want it for my files up at the office.
Mr. JENNER. And thank you for your time and your cooperation.
Mrs. BATES. Well, I figured it might help.
TESTIMONY OF MAX E. CLARK
The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I
will place you under oath.
(Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I
understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I
would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those
documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the
taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with
that letter, is that correct?
Mr. CLARK. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first,
your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited
contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called
Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to
some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De
Mohrenschildt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr. CLARK. Max E. Clark.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are an attorney?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. A member of the Bar of Texas?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Any other State?
Mr. CLARK. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and
American Bar Association.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain your offices in Fort Worth, is that
correct?
Mr. CLARK. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your home address?
Mr. CLARK. 4312 Selkirk Drive West.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr. CLARK. Since 1939--now I have to stop and think----
Mr. LIEBELER. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a
native-born American, Mr. Clark?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Texas?
Mr. CLARK. No, I was born in Indiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas, approximately?
Mr. CLARK. In 1927.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state for us briefly your educational
background?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth,
graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the
University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of
Texas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her
parents were born in Russia, is that correct?
Mr. CLARK. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her
mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia
but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England
because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up
to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met
him, approximately when?
Mr. CLARK. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the
newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to
Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed
it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone
call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she
spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking
Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she
said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I
was at my office and we would either call--or we would call him that
weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday
following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl
spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well
call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe
is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald
and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our
house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient
for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid
no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt.
Mr. LIEBELER. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did
he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter?
Mr. CLARK. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she
would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the
offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living.
If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done
enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in
France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this
operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I
have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that.
When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of
September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact
with--there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth
that they communicate quite freely back and forth--stated that they had
met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time
and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to
Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this?
Mr. CLARK. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've
forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife
was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that
the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met
this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and
she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did
not see him and then we had no further contact with them or even knew
about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this
Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live
with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and
was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the
child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and
went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't
know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it
was not going very well, their marriage, and so----
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena
Hall; do you remember?
Mr. CLARK. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know.
I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an
automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the
hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the
hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the
baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were they in the car at all?
Mr. CLARK. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty
badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena
Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and
took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given
sedatives and--Elena Hall--and I don't know whether she knew any more
about it. I did not see her that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina see Elena Hall that night?
Mr. CLARK. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the
hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this
Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during--from that period while Elena
was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and
buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she
could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get
food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her
to the grocery or take her food.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but
before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said
Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas
Employment Commission----
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you
that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at
the Fort Worth Public Library?
Mr. CLARK. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time.
When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he
had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment
commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my
wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course,
we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about,
why, my wife--we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not
know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them
before we did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission
that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife?
Mr. CLARK. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt
had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years
up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works
there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my
sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she
said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression
she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith
at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of
Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort
Worth, is that correct?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment
Commission in Fort Worth?
Mr. CLARK. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think
this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the
Gregorys first, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an
attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to
put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the
entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia.
I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the
exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife
provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you
have knowledge of those things?
Mr. CLARK. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in
the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that
time, apparently there was--she bought her some groceries and I do
recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it
would exceed $10 or $15.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did
provide to Marina were these things you described?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she gave Marina any money?
Mr. CLARK. I am sure she did not give her any cash; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on with your story now, please?
Mr. CLARK. So, upon--when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would
see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that
week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner
one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment
and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we
would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that
she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into
town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday
afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over
there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the
first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there,
oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then
John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over
seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on
and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't
recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's
home while Elena was in the hospital?
Mr. CLARK. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was
under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were
quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had
formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know
definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian
at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the impression that there had been
marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife
thought that?
Mr. CLARK. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina
seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not
seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and
Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a
conversation with Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mr. CLARK. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in
Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and
why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at
great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point
with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald
the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his
opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say,
"You know who I am?" when he would meet someone for the first time, so
he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked
him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he
had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he
was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines
and he would go to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in
the Marines?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian
language while in the Marines?
Mr. CLARK. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to
speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned
a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite
awhile before he left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or
whether this was private effort?
Mr. CLARK. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or
less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the
Marines that he went--I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get
to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to
get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some
kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his
passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia,
and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and
told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his
passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they
told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as
a Russian citizen?
Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a
length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured
a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said
because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment
with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little
better apartment than the normal working person there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he was sent to work?
Mr. CLARK. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't
remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever
Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with
the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to
the Soviet Union?
Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become
a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave
him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact
they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet
metal worker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. CLARK. I asked him what it was like working there and he said
the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps.
He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to
corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their
jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if
he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder
and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and
that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you
could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do
each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless
you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he
didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city--I
said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that.
He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to
live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could
live and they assigned you an apartment and it might take 5 years
to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the
managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they
could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their
vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone
got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your
transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place
of employment down to the Black Sea.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the
Soviet Union?
Mr. CLARK. He said he was limited because he did not have the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?
Mr. CLARK. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying
that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had
your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main
things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing,
shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he received any income from any
source other than his job?
Mr. CLARK. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother
to get money to come back to the States.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention receiving money from the Red Cross?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to
Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning
to the United States?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to
Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that
she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and
walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't
pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for
walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go
to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work
up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she
was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the
child but by putting in his application to return to the United States
somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his
permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never
returned to work after the birth of the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high
cost of transportation?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article
recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures
in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked
him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera
in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you
go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't
afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the
transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said,
"Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but
only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down
there." He was quite unhappy about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath
while most of the other apartments had to share the bath?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said
most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor
have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments,
would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the
hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share
that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be
a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those
apartments was his had a wash basin and private stove in there, small
apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to
use the communal kitchen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after
the baby was born?
Mr. CLARK. That's what he indicated to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were
allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a
child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which
they were not required to work but other than that they worked the
whole time.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the child when they went back to work?
Mr. CLARK. He said they take it to special places that elderly
women--they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of
a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at
the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he
think this was a good thing or bad thing?
Mr. CLARK. Well, he didn't seem quite--he just took it as a matter of
course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to
make on that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave
on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr.
Madland. Do you remember that?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This report indicates that you told them at that time
that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back
to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a
government nursery.
Mr. CLARK. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when
the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5
months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl
might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work
they were placed in a nursery.
Mr. LIEBELER. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition
with the particular case of the Oswalds.
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he
met and subsequently married his wife, Marina?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she
told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was
working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too
much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one
evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact
for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he
met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a
short time, they got married.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing
permission to marry her?
Mr. CLARK. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission
to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a
flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late
to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush
to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be
hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and
arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual
to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she
started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your
friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American
and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it
couldn't be any worse."
Mr. LIEBELER. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse
than the Soviet Union?
Mr. CLARK. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite
happy to get out of there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the
reasons why she married Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new
and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was--seemed
to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the
Soviet Union and return to the United States?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind
that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he
was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true
Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a
democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt
there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead
or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was
to leave so he made application to leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make
his mark" or is that just an expression of yours?
Mr. CLARK. That is my expression but my general impression was he
wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life
ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea
that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what
particular circumstances he was in.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the
fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the
impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this
fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I
am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what
you just spoke of?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted
to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he called attention to that fact to make himself
stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to
peoples' attention?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to
think it made him somebody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other examples of behavior on
Oswald's part?
Mr. CLARK. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't--he was
completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet
metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine
Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that
he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment
than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few
accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he
read very much and how much he had read.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything
he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was
much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was
interested in sports and he wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or
Marxist organizations?
Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of
organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in
Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and
why he decided to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining
permission to return to the United States?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and
Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked
him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I
made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I
wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he
said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was
unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is
what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at
the right time or hadn't approached the right person."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or
Marina any difficulty about them returning?
Mr. CLARK. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not
renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in
your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did
turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did
not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back",
he said "They couldn't keep me out."
Mr. LIEBELER. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing
of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him
a citizen?
Mr. CLARK. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused
to permit him to return?
Mr. CLARK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department
or Embassy or Moscow?
Mr. CLARK. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He
just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an
arrogant-talking person.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention specifically any government official,
President Kennedy, Governor Connally?
Mr. CLARK. No one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his service in the Marine Corps?
Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine
Corps. He didn't like any part of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of
life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps?
Mr. CLARK. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet
Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether
they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be
five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put
you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one
place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He
said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of
places to live and assignment of apartments."
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable
discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about it at that time?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
Mr. CLARK. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone
that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable
discharge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the
so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise
with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald;
whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have
anything to do with him?
Mr. CLARK. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not
they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked
me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he
is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's
having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her,
she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her
because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and
they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and
kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her.
I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I
said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that
when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is
watching his movements or I would be very much surprised."
Mr. LIEBELER. If they didn't----
Mr. CLARK. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly
where he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is
contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would
keep a record."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. Not before this happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in
security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became
acquainted with Earl Haley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of
this sort with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I
don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well,
I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De
Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I
received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know
him quite well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after
the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the
assassination?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said?
Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald
did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had
written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs.
Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she
was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow
about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him
and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that
Oswald had done it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters?
Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them.
I know I got the last one.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with
you, of course?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go
back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would
appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I
will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters
and may want to make them part of this record.
Mr. CLARK. Sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters
anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the
assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. CLARK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not
think Oswald was the man who did it?
Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not
believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line.
He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer.
He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well,
actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an
explorer or pirate or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to
a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told
me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald
a real lashing about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was?
Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of
January, sometime in the spring of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and
Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't
think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and
Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas,
the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald
and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I
know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party,
the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or
27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party
at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that
took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on
after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort
Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and
quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of
Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him
like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid
another hand on her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party?
Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I
think it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period
January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?
Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime.
Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to
Pennsylvania or New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe.
Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3
weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way
through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him
at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month
or maybe more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made
on the life of General Walker?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that?
Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him
shortly before he left for Haiti.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker
with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked
politics.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in
connection with the Walker attempt at that time?
Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think
that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our
conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just
someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only
comment we had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty
to the United States?
Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character
but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion
that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was
just a "patsy" in the thing?
Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he
really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes
without even thinking; most of the time he does that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that
you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to
whether he was mentally unstable or not?
Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just
thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or
anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in
the world was out of step but himself.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt
that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything
because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't
seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was
a completely shiftless individual.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby?
Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did
not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the
first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some
place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to
Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that
he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have
committed?
Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President
Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to
call attention to himself?
Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because
he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or
other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about
Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any
more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you
think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what
you said, go right ahead.
Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has
been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour
conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to
separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is
extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time
when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was
like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned
with what life was like in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already
testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?
Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated
he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't
recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't
interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have
registered on me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in
firearms to you at that time?
Mr. CLARK. Not at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time?
Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations
with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations
amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might
have been a Russian agent?
Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and
Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the
ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and
couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than
those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's"
just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily.
The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to
the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to
be concerned about it because they felt the American government was
keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background.
They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it
did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as
much as the ones that got out recently.
Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based
primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in
getting out of Russia, is that correct?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had
considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt
probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as
to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because
of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?
Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and
Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know
there's several others of the younger group that came over.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know
is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in
Blossom, Tex.
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't
recall their name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald
might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he
got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that
they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by
the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it?
Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was
keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off
political issues or anything about the United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very
much.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE
The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my
name is Wesley J. Liebeler.
I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we
would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in
connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background,
and anything you might know about the assassination or anything
shedding light on Oswald's motive.
I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission
has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted
to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint
Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which
you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission
governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.
Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked
you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written
notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice
since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go
ahead at this time?
Mr. BOUHE. I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.
Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission,
or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance
before the Commission?
Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the
Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the
Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.
Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr. BOUHE. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular
job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and
prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the
last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on
my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last
year.
Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time?
Mr. BOUHE. For 9-1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of
a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want
to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the
well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton,
but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad,
Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates
is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a
baptismal certificate showing February 11.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United
States.
Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd,
Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called
the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was
working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.
It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I
think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.
The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent
American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several
cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking
English, was an office boy.
When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which
is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it
says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of
his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its
efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did
that lead to your coming to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors
which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them,
including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University,
Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my
supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office
closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport
to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river
separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at
night, and it was cold, and got out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen?
Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the
United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years
for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers.
I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did
there, which is not much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French
governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age
of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the
English governess, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to
the gymnasium, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here,
but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us
Latin and Greek.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas?
(Mr. Jenner entered the room.)
Mr. LIEBELER (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner.
Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are
regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas
and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly
the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say,
so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And
particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a
congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us
about that?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I
appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I
would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process
of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely
only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married
people, married to Americans, and so on.
So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have
come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.
In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came
to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people,
native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian
Empire.
By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have
been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians,
and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and
that was the language.
It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed
God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps
in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a
10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.
So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient,
self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their
new homeland.
Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a
church congregation, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because
I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but
anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian
language was welcome.
And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really.
The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent
well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.
Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the
people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the
English language become useful members of the community and become
self-sufficient?
Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a
job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn
English, because I have the great reliance on that.
Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn
English? All I want to do is get a job."
Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language,
too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or
remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say,
taking people by the hand and sticking them there.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if
my information is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples?
Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a
daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A.
Mamantov?
Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere
around that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.
Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory
and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25,
1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and
Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son
of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of
Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was
invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not
come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. It was that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at
the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to
his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred
percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library
where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a
free class of the Russian language.
Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland
Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he
told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they
exchanged a few talks.
Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's
office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if
I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to
evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr.
Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the
Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the
assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the
testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.
Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10
bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the
book.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed
help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is
that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald
with his book?
Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee
Oswald and his wife, Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what
was said at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the
ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject
in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St.
Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear,
Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.
This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person,
for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your
hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is
still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in
existence, or the herring fish market still smells.
Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that
time?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album
of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book
Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St.
Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days,
and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the
last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I
was interested in.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps?
Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I
asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any
exchange of pleasantries on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad
and moved to Minsk?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other
time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St.
Petersburg to Minsk?
Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet
Union?
Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit
your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back
over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as
to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your
discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we
will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.
Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed
with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize
him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my
conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against
society.
Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came
into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him,
because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the
Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He
goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He
doesn't like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he
didn't like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football?
Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned
from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.
Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job
that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly
I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't
remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal
factory.
But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic
aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet
Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90
rubles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had
while he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked
him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"
Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent.
I said, "What did you get as rent?"
"Well, it was an old factory building."
I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a
flimsy partition.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have
quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs,
or did he appear to have better quarters?
Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90
rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he
comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots
which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots?
Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were
famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all
leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so
on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it
looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even
he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go
through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?
Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk
about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of
his rare occasions.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter
Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you
got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is
in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?"
And that figure I remember distinctly.
In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost
him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to
mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he
was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something
because there was not enough money left to buy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke
was all the money he received while he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must
have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that
correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said,
"90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"
No answer.
But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I
couldn't cross-examine.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently,
is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For
instance, he had a portable radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone
and records.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly
don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it
and he said it is a most awful construction.
But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought
there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing
qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know.
And what she was earning, I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting
club in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or
hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's
work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because
he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of
"duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to
describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in
Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?
Mr. BOUHE. There?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union.
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in
connection with his hunting trips?
Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his
trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can
remember?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no
reason to suspect his lying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when
he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the
Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of
the Soviet Government?
Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much
as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or
heard him volunteer any such thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I
thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to
be brought up in the United States."
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why
he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the
fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the
Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was
hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.
And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third
hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald
just to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?
Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the
reasons why Marina married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Only after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina
wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she
married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one
of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like
to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina
liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and
this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just
itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me
if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet
Union while he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or
three different occasions from Minsk?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of
them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy
in Moscow at some period of time to return.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training
while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or
received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that
subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he
was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time
to time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that
language?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not
perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in
the Soviet Union, approximately?
Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the
Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald
before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort
Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be
about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that
period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language,
considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I
would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any
special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet
Union?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good
old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke
French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some
from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn
the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his
language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or
from factory workers.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the
Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her
education?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good
command of the language?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I
complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met
here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a
very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.
And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly
grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language.
And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what
period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school
for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas
man--perhaps Bryn Mawr.
Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the
name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a
young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.
And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced
her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or
does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words.
What is in her soul, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of
Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about
that.
Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the
judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the
assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments
or amplified them after the event of the assassination.
But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as
you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about
December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.
It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without
investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who
they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at
the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942,
and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a
great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.
Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have
to do whatever she could to get out.
Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is
of the old school, but I don't know.
And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which
presented itself in Minsk.
So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal
was or is, I cannot guess even now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a
product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed
from her?
Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific
words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet
regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own,
which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her.
Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your
opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination
occurred?
Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of
exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events
without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed
in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is
good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I
do not volunteer as an expert.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when,
as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of
marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's
confidence about those matters?
Mr. BOUHE. Not I.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent?
Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long
sessions together, just girls.
Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna
Meller and Anna Ray.
Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I
saw or heard that she had a black eye.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One
Saturday several of us arrived at their house.
Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about
anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?"
Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see
Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's
party?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in
the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called
at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and
said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper
and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"
Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a
plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say
but "come over."
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a
week?
Mr. BOUHE. About a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna
Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday
or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a
very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband,
Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum
Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring
her over for a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it
is November?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs.
Ford.
Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double
check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of
Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can
testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that
correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to
your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October
7, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that
conversation?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or
first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were
at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a
Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs.
Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember
distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended,
wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another
job existed.
The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in
Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did
say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian
lady--said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with
the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job."
For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7.
That would be my guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation
with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And
to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess.
And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment
Commission, which he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there--not I, because I
didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs.
Cunningham?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you?
Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph. D., a very kind man--he
said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little
baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their
feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job
in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected
nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet
economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those
were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a
$1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"--those were my
very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable
any place."
And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you.
Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is
a standard statement I would ask anybody.
And for 2 or 3--or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6
o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine.
Bye."
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on
the telephone?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where----
Mr. BOUHE. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was
some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't
know what that means.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. BOUHE. YMCA on Ervay Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long he lived there?
Mr. BOUHE. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from
about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a
Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know
myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th,
but that I do know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the
YMCA?
Mr. BOUHE. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked,
"Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of
the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the
Carlton boarding house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he
had not lived there?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed
that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the
name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a
bum steer.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived
after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately
lived.
Mr. LIEBELER. He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth?
Mr. BOUHE. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that
he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others
because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to
him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr.
Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the
FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the Oswald apartment at Elsbeth Street?
Mr. BOUHE. I never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit their apartment at No. 215 Neely
Street?
Mr. BOUHE. Never even knew where it was. Never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28,
1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the
Ford party.
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1 to December 28?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have
run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't
swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my
part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during that period of time, however?
Mr. BOUHE. Once or twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna
Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of
1962, would it not?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; that is right. That is right.
Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I
told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had
lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not,
that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with
Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It must have been November because your recollection is
she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. That is a slip of the tongue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during the month of November 1962?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time
except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her
once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when
she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't around at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of
Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion.
Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the
record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina
Oswald.
Mr. BOUHE. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from
my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person
of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such.
She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that
age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious
about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size
you would not think she would.
And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald,
coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she
could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to
America."
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that
you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great
actress.
Mr. BOUHE. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at
this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. Maybe she is a superagent of some organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time
of the assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not. Never entered into my head.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it has entered into your head since the
assassination, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, after that, you think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you
observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that?
Mr. BOUHE. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have
conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina
left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is
almost incredible.
American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it
took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I
think, both of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Asked who?
Mr. BOUHE. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual
that they let you out. How did you do it?"
It was a completely innocent question at that time.
"Well, we just went to the right office."
And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to
that effect in Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of
yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent
of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time
prior to the assassination.
Mr. BOUHE. The majority of our Russian background colony having
suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10
and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this
country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes
from Russia.
Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a
Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the
man came to the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to
return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that
application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only
paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some
investigation.
Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United
States, whether it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned
with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good
little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States.
That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some
odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money.
At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to
dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney
friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am
sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of
days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words
to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels,
apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think
these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to
you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions,
yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't
remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it
was mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember specifically who mentioned it?
Mr. BOUHE. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't.
And I am not hiding anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan
P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were
there, were they not?
Mr. BOUHE. Right; uninvited.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife?
Mr. BOUHE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of
whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden
toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his
wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp
among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain
say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back
home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my
conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who
said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of
that conversation.
At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple
of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except
maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if
I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her.
Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so
to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings,
apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before.
Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you
know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices.
Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came
finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two.
"Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the
party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an
agent of the U.S.S.R.?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald
spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say
clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is."
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that man?
Mr. BOUHE. Lev Aronson, chief first cello, Dallas Symphony Orchestra.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought
Oswald was an idiot?
Mr. BOUHE. I am not a buddy-buddy of his.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't hear why Aronson thought Oswald was an
idiot?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at
the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at
that party?
Mr. BOUHE. Not with Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of
people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day
after?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a
long time and I am almost sure I must have been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the
question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during
that period of time, was there not?
Mr. BOUHE. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about
Oswald being a Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time during the period December 28 for the next
few days?
Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned,
well, whether others talked, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear anybody talking about it?
Mr. BOUHE. Not to my hearing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that Oswald was essentially a
mental case?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental
case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember using those words at any time during the
period December 28 and the few days following that day?
Mr. BOUHE. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word
when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not
remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some
school and study to attempt to improve his ability?
Mr. BOUHE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?
Mr. BOUHE. That was most probably the first week of October when he
moved here, October 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said to you in response?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. "What kind of school do they have?"
And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board
of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their
skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to
make lampshades."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever went to Crozier Tech?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service
agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have
gone to, and I said we have only one.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was Crozier Tech?
Mr. BOUHE. That is called Dallas Evening Public School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or
magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment?
Mr. BOUHE. American or Russian?
Mr. LIEBELER. Of any nature.
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or
not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do
not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you
was "Agitator" one of them?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about "Crocodile"?
Mr. BOUHE. Unfortunately; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any others?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I think it is called "O-g-o-n-e-k." Means, "little
fire."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you
saw in Oswald's possession?
Mr. BOUHE. Something about the sports, because you always could see a
Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a
periodical called "The Worker"?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw a copy in the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about "The Militant"?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw any such article, magazine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on
political subjects in Oswald's home?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.
Mr. BOUHE. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes
Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly
Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not
remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped
over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw
the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these
books were in his apartment?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you about them?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics with Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. American politics?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his
attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government?
Mr. BOUHE. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man.
I did not touch any of these subjects.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or
three times that you saw him?
Mr. BOUHE. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I
saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet
Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and
things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the
economic system of the U.S.S.R.?
Mr. BOUHE. I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how did you know he was stuck on it?
Mr. BOUHE. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks,
"Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether
it is free rent or free medical care.
For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some
place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out
but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time."
Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to
Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. Not during the time I knew him; positively not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought
Russia was so good, why didn't he go back?
Mr. BOUHE. No; I didn't, because I think he began to hate me very early.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have
enough to live nicely and help others if I wish.
The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the
latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to
the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of
mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal
and if I know around the corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the
floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good.
So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw
the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put
them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the
down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that
there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the
floor and all that.
I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones,
lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile
assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in
rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will
see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And
I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner
by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift
yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the
opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them."
Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines,
no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia.
He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he
went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job
and they said what can you do--nothing. Where did you work last--Minsk.
Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So
this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in
this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see
it.
When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because
they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries,
and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I
did exactly that, as I saw it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate your efforts?
Mr. BOUHE. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third
visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to
Marina and such--I even brought two shirts for him--not new, used,
and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his
displeasure over me.
He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were
not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them
3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he
folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any."
Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others
brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox
was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the
groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this
is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is
junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy groceries for the Oswalds at any time?
Mr. BOUHE. Once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how much?
Mr. BOUHE. Ten dollars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the
Oswalds?
Mr. BOUHE. $75. You can make a list, if you wish, because I want to
tell you.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BOUHE. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus
fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday.
I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here
and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he
didn't give me any change. I remember that.
Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid.
I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another
lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings,
we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her
measure moccasins without stockings.
I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to
take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas
where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford
to go to the regular dentist.
And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of
time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I
think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if De Mohrenschildt spent any money on
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I have no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about any others, as far as you know?
Mr. BOUHE. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in
clothes, used, not new, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else gave such things to the Oswalds?
Mr. BOUHE. Through me, I collected--Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs.
Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used
clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to
Dallas, did it?
Mr. BOUHE. The clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the
dentist, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say the dental work was done after Oswald moved to
Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort
Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until November 2d?
Mr. BOUHE. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came,
I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth
rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad,
and here those student guys just love to pull.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving
the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for
them?
Mr. BOUHE. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I
don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed
there in October?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other financial contribution that
might have been made to the Oswalds during this period?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, let's say $20. I would say that is all, $75, more or
less.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his service in the
Marine Corps?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. BOUHE. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of
application blanks some place and you have to say about your military
service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would
say: "Put down honorable."
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the entire extent of your discussion?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. He would freeze up like a clam.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss anything about Cuba with you?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his
possession?
Mr. BOUHE. Do not recall having seen anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not
Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he
get along with the Russian people?
Mr. BOUHE. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful.
Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him.
I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something
like that."
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Marina said?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was her reaction to him when she met him in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that?
Mr. BOUHE. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether
they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was
not a very talkative person.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have the impression that as a general manner he was
not a popular person when he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind
of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with
whom he would be friendly. I could not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind?
Mr. BOUHE. He changed so much, from an American, to Russia, and back.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never seemed to be satisfied with anything?
Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. Besides, not satisfied with any place. That is
the point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S.
Government for delaying his return to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. In a casual remark, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get
on the horse."
Mr. LIEBELER. The United States?
Mr. BOUHE. "Damn them, I don't know why it took them so long."
Mr. LIEBELER. That is all he said?
Mr. BOUHE. All I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual
in the Government?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk
politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and
useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any
hostility against anybody in the Government, which I didn't hear
myself, I would say Governor Connally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?
Mr. BOUHE. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in
Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where,
in the paper here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that
he wrote a letter to Governor Connally?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that only after reading it in the paper?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would
say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he
had any hostility toward any individual in the Government?
Mr. BOUHE. You mean as of the end of December, 1962?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading
this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the
letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the
time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the
injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the
period "as soon as possible."
Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which
did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine
story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to
correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I
would say that it looks like a threat.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure
with Governor Connally?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely not.
Mr. LIEBELER. If he had any prior to the assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand English when you first met her?
Mr. BOUHE. She said no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that she could
understand English?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God,
you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or
something like that.
"Oh, yes. I know I love you. Come kiss me quick, or something like
that."
But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of
her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian----
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few
words in English."
"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it did not appear to you that she understood English?
Mr. BOUHE. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I
have talked with you.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that you tried to teach her English?
Mr. BOUHE. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad
provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in
the family there sometime.
And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I
tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave
girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet
before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English."
"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee,
he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to
him. This is positively so."
Well, I said, "Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?"
"Well," she said, "let's try".
Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University
of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home
from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some
Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in
English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that
system was to be short-lived.
Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for
it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing
Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and
generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I
understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the
American society.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the
English language?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have
perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper
I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big
letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I
live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on
Wednesday. This is a tropical climate."
Mr. LIEBELER. You sent those to Marina and asked her to study them?
Mr. BOUHE. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the
dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which
she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were
living in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and
maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's.
I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20.
Mr. LIEBELER. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it,
is that right?
Mr. BOUHE. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment,
she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and
I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see
what it should have been.
And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because
a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said,
"Please take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live
in Fort Worth.'"
Mr. LIEBELER. He had those lessons that you had sent to Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't know what he had. All I could hear was my own words,
because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostat
of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress.
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be a good student of English; is that
correct?
Mr. BOUHE. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each.
She made a good headway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever come to your house to study Russian?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to
study English?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. In my previous question I meant English, to study at your
house?
Mr. BOUHE. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the
baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only time they were in your house?
Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the
diaper----
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina was never in your house in the absence of Lee
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and
made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else
being there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that
regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am
an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his
smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that
I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was
jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody
else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" "Why I gave you $2 last
week; $2 you got."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the
attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have
given to Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not see.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not know about that?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably I
showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole.
Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of
any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard it from anybody else?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear, and I am 60.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone
else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect?
Mr. BOUHE. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer,
"Well, Lee is jealous of you."
Mr. LIEBELER. She said that about you?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because I bought groceries.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the
end of the fourth lesson?
Mr. BOUHE. Sir, I wish I knew.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the answer to that question?
Mr. BOUHE. Just a moment. I do not know the answer to that question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
charged with the assassination of the President?
Mr. BOUHE. You can say that again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why were you surprised?
Mr. BOUHE. Because I happened to know the guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was capable of doing such a
thing?
Mr. BOUHE. Never up to that moment. Did not enter my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that
respect?
Mr. BOUHE. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an
individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place
under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist
thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to
whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that
he was dangerous in any respect?
Mr. BOUHE. He liked to get into a fight, I heard and get beaten up, I
heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes;
he is a tough guy but----
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as assassinating the President or shooting
somebody, that's never occurred to you?
Mr. BOUHE. Never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack
Ruby?
Mr. BOUHE. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could
not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I
suspect yes--no, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you testified before that you knew George De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was a friend of Oswald's; was he not?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph. D., comes from an excellent
family back in the old country, married the right people, knows
everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here
with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you
invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing
suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted.
When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October
or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I
just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble."
By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of
that sort of stuff.
George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you
are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg,
then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people."
"All right, George, you carry the ball."
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his
society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little
hoopla circus.
So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one
day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that
period, that is almost an exaggeration.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and
attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised
any particular influence over Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and
the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to
tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday,
or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care--De
Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald would do that?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would
say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't
even say it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man,
and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs.
Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here.
I will ask you if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission
Exhibits 451, 453-456, WJL.]
First of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the
same man?
Mr. BOUHE. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember
seeing that man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say no. Am I wrong?
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think
that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate.
I have no more questions that I want to ask, do you have anything else
that you think we ought to know before we finish?
Let me ask you one more question. Did Oswald drink, as far as you know?
Mr. BOUHE. Drink?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BOUHE. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple
of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass,
but do not know if it was ginger ale.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a strong drinker?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw or heard or smelled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our
attention that you think would help us in this matter?
Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3
days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything
else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in
touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at
that time.
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that occurs to you now?
Mr. BOUHE. I cannot think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S.
attorney's office and we will make arrangements.
Mr. BOUHE. Is that Mr. Sanders?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BOUHE. I talked incessantly today.
Mr. LIEBELER. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he
can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no
further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this
time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is
anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the
court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for
the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In
other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple
of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that
everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while
the reporter was writing?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must
say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I
cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and
will think of something, so don't hold it against me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You will think of something that we have not discussed?
Mr. BOUHE. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret
Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia,
and I--by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately
appear in the paper?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; not as far as we know. You don't want any publicity?
Mr. BOUHE. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am
fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. BOUHE. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings
going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being
captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were
holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you
can see the----
Mr. LIEBELER. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in
connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate.
TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER
The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before
we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your
information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have
been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission
pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions
of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution
of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs.
Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week
and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of
the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of
procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of
those documents with that letter?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs.
Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as
a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in
October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have
concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the
assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right
hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. MELLER. Anna N. Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. 5930-1/2 LaVista Drive, Dallas 6.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mrs. MELLER. I was born in Russia in 1917.
Mr. LIEBELER. In what town in Russia were you born?
Mrs. MELLER. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade
like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling].
Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Russia is that in?
Mrs. MELLER. It's first town in Russia, town after Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be in southern Russia then?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts
Russia after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ukraine?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, after Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now an American citizen?
Mrs. MELLER. I am an American citizen since 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to the United States?
Mrs. MELLER. As a refugee.
Mr. LIEBELER. When?
Mrs. MELLER. In January 11, 1952.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. I left Russia around 1943.
Mr. LIEBELER. In 1943?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You left Russia at the time the German Army retreated?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, the corps of Germans.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to
Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Russia did you go to Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then
from Germany to United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Meller with you at that time?
Mrs. MELLER. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short
before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the
dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met,
1946, I met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Off record comment.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by
the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free
will and go to Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I was taken by the Germans from Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with
the retreat of the German Army?
Mrs. MELLER. Part of the retreat.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did the Germans take you from Russia; do you know?
Mrs. MELLER. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on
the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is
inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself
as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and
all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and
worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger
because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital
was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger.
That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and
Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you
wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct?
Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia
in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those
regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would
raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we
could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to
United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit
more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good
vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I
forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the
United States?
Mrs. MELLER. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names
they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in
north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several
go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about
Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but
never heard Dallas, and we----
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to Dallas?
Mrs. MELLER. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years
here and love it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you work now, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, I work 11 years for Dallas Power & Light Co. as
draftsman.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a draftsman?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have training in draftsmanship work?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be
architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all
examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my
diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my
dentistry examination but I get my diploma.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union
before you left?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I got my document but without final examination
of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in
drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or
architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested
in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it
and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't
possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education,
it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something
and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting
dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working
at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I
get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying.
When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay
very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and
doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because
modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I
went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course
in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States.
Since that time I love it and my job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your husband work also?
Mrs. MELLER. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11
years or 12. I will say 12 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your husband also from Russia originally?
Mrs. MELLER. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two
universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical
education.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August
in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory--I, my
husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to
make something--we don't have a house here. We don't have car here.
We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place.
When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe
picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr.
Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at the time?
Mrs. MELLER. I think it was wife from Peter Gregory, Mr. Gregory, his
son----
Mr. LIEBELER. Paul Gregory?
Mrs. MELLER. Paul Gregory, myself, and George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening?
Mrs. MELLER. It was a dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the evening?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the
conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at
which you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. MELLER. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia
not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak
word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old,
baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just
were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and
if you had a job--Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee
Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not
speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against
United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes,
really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we
met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy
going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find
out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and
I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't
remember exactly or he was looking for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you carry on the conversation in English or in
Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. In Russian more.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was
not able to speak English?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word;
however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was his Russian grammatically correct?
Mrs. MELLER. Pretty correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he learned Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody
asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took
English in school and studied very much at home.
Mr. LIEBELER. Russian you mean.
Mrs. MELLER. Russian in school and studied at home very much with
himself as Marina said later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his command of the Russian language
was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had
spent in Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely better than I would expect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in
Russia to learn Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy
to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be
more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something,
he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said your first impression just was he appeared
mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you
came to that conclusion?
Mrs. MELLER. Later on, when I saw him--I saw him two times or three
in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people
tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not
want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against
everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a
single word.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he did not want her to learn English?
Mrs. MELLER. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to
speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to
Russia in the first place?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw
Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions
about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever
told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did
you next see Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina
Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times,
probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work
somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably
close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in
work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought--always for
Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some
clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was
sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I
never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time.
However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed
for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back
home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what
you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I
notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature
about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something
like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books
from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was
real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time that you saw him?
Mrs. MELLER. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her
house. No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to
Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue
spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy
little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She
said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door
and hit my head here" and it was very blue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Around her eye?
Mrs. MELLER. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was
very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt
always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not
very--didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went;
it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at
Peter Gregory's?
Mrs. MELLER. At Gregory's and then one time at home.
Mr. LIEBELER. At your home?
Mrs. MELLER. No; at their home where they lived, Marina and Oswald on
Mercedes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth; and that is the only place you ever saw
him?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George
Bouhe. We were always together--group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and
not going one person?
Mrs. MELLER. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina
and Oswald somebody raise the question--I tried to remember who but I
couldn't--I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know,
George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said,
I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I
thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help
them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been
in the Soviet Union for a while?
Mrs. MELLER. We could not understand why he stayed there and come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the
Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him?
Mrs. MELLER. When somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go
to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed
to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let
him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in
my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like
this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then,
I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee
Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina
mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was his job in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort
Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was
looking for a job in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort
Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the
Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately,
and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other
things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends?
Mrs. MELLER. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked
three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10
to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three
pairs.
Mr. LIEBELER. For Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had
sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake
of woman with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about
anything. We never saw he will be really----
Mr. LIEBELER. Responsible?
Mrs. MELLER. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that
feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain
trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much
for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought
up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw
Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like
husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward
Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange
but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see Lee Harvey buying
anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands,
baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to
house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about
$18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she
would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you,
she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young
mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was
wondering; baby was first.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries
for them?
Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably
two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I
think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar
with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and
something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for
the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby?
Mrs. MELLER. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the
baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears,
couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly
more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee
Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to
help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all
that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he go with Mr. Bouhe to get the playpen?
Mrs. MELLER. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it
was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much
and I could not talk much to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar
because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you
understand that perhaps he had good reasons?
Mrs. MELLER. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a
person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people.
He could not talk like--I see first time and anyway, to explain as much
as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had
always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very--not willing
to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the
milk for baby--"We don't need anything."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job
in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MELLER. No; no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that
the United States had made to him?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and
that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American
Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was
making payments to the American Government?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he
mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think
it was not much at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just
confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her
clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing?
Mrs. MELLER. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and
I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much
as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he--we
haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he
never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. If you are
in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to
help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who gave you the $5.00 to give to Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. $5.00--my goodness! If I could remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it
from being counted twice.
Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, I think it was Mrs. Steed----
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you spell that?
Mrs. MELLER. Steed [spelling], from oilman, wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina at any time that you knew
them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job Oswald had
while he was in Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. Oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but,
something--how to explain--something that you have with machinery. I
mean something to fix like hard--just like hardware store, something
with those things. I think it was a dirty job. Not exactly locks but
some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, I think is
kind of work he did but I am very sorry I never was listening real good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid at the job?
Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall; I just did not pay much attention. I know
he was having a pretty good room there.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs. MELLER. That he was having good room and something--maybe I am not
right, sir, I am afraid to say, like $80 month.
Mr. LIEBELER. Eighty rubles?
Mrs. MELLER. Eighty rubles a month.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say or indicate he received help from the Red
Cross or any other phase of the Embassy?
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know any money he ever received in Russia
is from his job, is that correct?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I am not clear here because I may have heard
something and never paid much attention.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used
to go on in Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. Something he said one time that he went with some Russian
boys, probably young people, hunting one time, I think he mentioned and
it was something like duckhunting, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, he said that he only
went on one hunting trip?
Mrs. MELLER. I mean I heard him saying one time that, just sort
mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere I think as much as I
know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you or did Marina tell you about the
circumstances under which Marina and Lee met and became married in
Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. Just far away rumors like I cannot imagine because I am
not clear with that. It is so far away and so unclear I am afraid to
let you know but in short, I think Marina said she met him at somewhere
at a dancing place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she had lived in Leningrad for
awhile?
Mrs. MELLER. I think she was born there and lived some time and then
was in Minsk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved from Leningrad to Minsk?
Mrs. MELLER. No; never asked much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the
United States?
Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning
to the United States, that you remember?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I will not say; it was mentioned Embassy and that
Embassy even decided to help with the money. That was all I think I
remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any dislike toward the State
Department or the Embassy because they delayed his return to the United
States?
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostility toward the U.S.
Government, that you can remember?
Mrs. MELLER. I will not say. I just do not recall. He never said too
much is what I say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak of President Kennedy?
Mrs. MELLER. No, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time
that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent?
Mrs. MELLER. Not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in
ways. He was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. You
could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. He will
always say something against--some way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the impression as to whether Oswald was
well liked when he was in Russia or was he unpopular when he was in
Russia, do you know?
Mrs. MELLER. My personal opinion, this person could never be friendly
with anybody, very friendly, I mean. He was such a person that you
never can come near even if you want to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to
why she married Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question--why she married Lee Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember what she said but I remember one sentence
which is even caught in my head that she said. She wished all her life
to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's
tired living not like a human living. She wanted to have piece of her
personal life and piece of her room just to her own. I remember her
expressing that very, very deeply.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962,
after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that
Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she
wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain
Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call me and say that her
husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the
filling station and said the man--she did not have a penny of money,
and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me
if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I
even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to
Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain
period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 6 weeks, maybe
month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?"
She said "In Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came
to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want
to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very much
space." I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help
poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like
that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay
let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said
"Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or
10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse
and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no
coat, no money, nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did
she have bruises?
Mrs. MELLER. She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you
can see she was shaking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to be bruised?
Mrs. MELLER. I will not say exactly but she was out of herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be upset?
Mrs. MELLER. Nervous, upset and looked like--she did not cry exactly
and at me now but looks like she cried--her eyes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing
about?
Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not
remember asking really for what or something. I did not ask for
arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. I do
not think I went into detail.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Marina stay with you?
Mrs. MELLER. Marina stay, I think 1 week, 5 days at my home, something
like Monday until Friday and Friday she went to another family by the
name of Mr. Ford, Mr. and Mrs. Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you any time during that week that she
stayed with you what she and Oswald had been arguing about and what
their difficulties were?
Mrs. MELLER. No, no; she did not say much. She mention that her husband
could not find proper jobs. They don't want to take him or he could not
find; she did not know herself very much. You can see without speaking
word of English I do not know what he could come home and tell her; I
cannot imagine. She said Lee could not find job and they are in trouble
and she did not say much. By the way, she was so skinny to this time
and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not
feel good. She had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her I
decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take her to the doctor?
Mrs. MELLER. So, I took her during this week she stay with me. I took
her to the G-y-n by the name Doctor Paul Wolff.
Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f [spelling]?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, W-o-l-f-f [spelling].
Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f-f [spelling].
Mrs. MELLER. He give her examination and said in my presence, said
she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least 5 pounds
immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and
need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. She had bad
appetite.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you how long she had been living in
Dallas?
Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember, sir, exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her saying anything about living in the
home of Elena Hall?
Mrs. MELLER. Elena Hall; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that?
Mrs. MELLER. That Mrs. Hall was very good to her and she stayed there
probably about 3 weeks if not more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in
Mrs. Hall's home?
Mrs. MELLER. Can you repeat that question?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had
left Mrs. Hall's home? In other words, I want to know how long she had
been living in Dallas with Oswald.
Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall her saying. But may I go back?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MELLER. It is time--thank you for remembering, helping me here.
It was the time between Fort Worth and our family and, in other words,
I think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in Fort Worth and
went to Dallas look for job. During this time Marina stay at Mrs. Hall
home for 3 or 4 weeks, if I am correct. It is not easy to remember,
really, and during this time we heard, I think he called on telephone
to us, Lee Harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him
with a job. In all time when we visited them in apartment in Fort
Worth and I heard from Marina that her husband may lose job pretty
soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just
like good soul, I say "You have to come to Dallas which is larger town
and maybe he find job." I did not say personally about George Bouhe
maybe he find job there, just mention in general. So he called and
ask if we can help him and again, as I repeat, for the sake of the
poor woman which could not speak word of English and her little baby,
I asked my husband. I was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job
for Lee Harvey in Dallas. Mr. Meller has a former friend with whom he
was working back at Harris but this time it was not Sanger-Harris. It
was just A. Harris store and he was working with certain Mrs. Helen
Cunningham. Later, Mrs. Cunningham left A. Harris and was working for
employment office in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Texas Employment Commission?
Mrs. MELLER. Texas Employment Commission; so, I asked him and I said
"Your former friend, Mrs. Helen Cunningham, maybe she can find job for
him. Please ask her." He did not want to do it. He said just because I
ask him and begged him so much he called Mrs. Helen Cunningham; told
her we had a couple which arrived from Russia; she's Russian, and he
is American. They are not very long here and he is looking for job but
he made a note and he said, "Mrs. Cunningham, be careful and check him
because he came from Soviet Union." He said be careful so we would not
have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came
from Soviet Union and I do not know, however, we heard somebody mention
he was checked and Mrs. Cunningham said, "Don't worry, Mr. Meller; we
will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. He
came one time during this period without Marina for half hour to my
house. I give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for
jobs.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at that time where he had been looking
for jobs?
Mrs. MELLER. He will not mention exactly. He was sleeping; I think he
was staying YMCA this time, living there and looking for job. He said
he has little piece of paper and some notices there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Names on them?
Mrs. MELLER. But he never go into detail, never, never, never. He will
mention but you will never find details out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any other place where Lee Oswald
stayed during this period other than the YMCA?
Mrs. MELLER. Never hear and when Marina Oswald later called me at
night, I was speechless that she was already in Dallas and we did not
know a word and when she mention name where she--they were living, I
did not have address. I did not know where they were living, how long
they are; they did not say a thing but I took her home, over my house
for 5 days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's?
Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long she stayed there?
Mrs. MELLER. I believe 1 week, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she then go to the home of----
Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mr. and Mrs. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mrs. MELLER. I tried remember first name--Frank Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it Thomas or Frank?
Mrs. MELLER. Frank Ray; Frank Ray. I think Ray. Now, it was the last
time we saw Marina. By the way, I must apologize--coming back when she
was living at our home, we did not--she was separated with Lee Harvey
to this time. She went out from him. He never call to our home. He
never visited. We were working people. We will leave her with food at
my home and we will come back in the evening. Nobody call; she never
went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if George Bouhe
help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive
either. It was last time when I saw Marina Oswald and her girl who was
about 4 or 6 months, I think. She was not even sitting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember seeing Lee and Marina Oswald at a
party at the Fords?
Mrs. MELLER. It was after I saw them at my house in December maybe. I
do not recall exactly day, 20 or 22 December; it was party at home of
Mr. and Mrs. Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been the 28th of December, after Christmas?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; it was 28th; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me us about that party, would you, please--who was
there; did Oswald come?
Mrs. MELLER. Well, I do not know; it was probably over 20 people there
and as I heard, Marina and Oswald were not invited there at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mrs. MELLER. But were invited certain Mr. and Mrs. De----
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. MELLER. De Mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and I heard from
the other people that the De Mohrenschildt's called to Mr. and Mrs.
Ford and asked if he can bring with him people, Marina and Oswald. They
are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he
brought them with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. MELLER. I did not see exactly walking in but I heard then that he
brought them there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald that night at all?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking,
cold, not very talkative. It was a certain Japanese girl, don't know
her name, he was all evening with this girl and Marina was left all
by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally
somebody play with piano, I see her sitting, trying to catch some songs
singing and I saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. I did
not remember seeing her and him together this evening. He was all time
with different girl which we met first time and I do not recognize her
name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen the Japanese girl since?
Mrs. MELLER. Never saw before or after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how we can get her name?
Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall name or anything, sir; I am very sorry. I
would like to help you.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald that evening?
Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember anything; my memory--don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald drink at the party at all; did you notice?
Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember seeing him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever drank very much?
Mrs. MELLER. Never saw him drink; do not recall. I saw Marina eating
pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. Some our friends notice
and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to
eat.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave the party?
Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion about Oswald after he left
the party? Did you overhear any conversation about him and Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. No; do not recall; I heard something from the people
talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my
goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name--Lev
Aronson, and I heard later that he talked to Lee Oswald and says that
he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought that?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I did not talk to him. I heard that conversation, you
know, going with a group of people and it was just----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a party at your house some time following
the party at the Ford residence?
Mrs. MELLER. After Ford party?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an open house on the day following?
Mrs. MELLER. No; you mean 29 of December?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; approximately.
Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the next day--within a few days following the Ford
party?
Mrs. MELLER. I could not recall really, but if I had, I never had
Oswalds over to my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Edward Harris from Georgetown, Tex.?
Mrs. MELLER. Charles Edward Harris, yes; I met him one time or two.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he at the Ford party; do you remember?
Mrs. MELLER. I do not think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion as far as you can recall either
at the Ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of
time where the question of whether Lee Oswald was a Russian agent was
discussed?
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with anybody?
Mrs. MELLER. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anybody discuss it?
Mrs. MELLER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of
the Soviet Union?
Mrs. MELLER. Could not say; can be but I cannot say.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not remember talking about that?
Mrs. MELLER. No; we never talked about that; I remember exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us everything that you can remember
about your meetings with Oswald and Marina that you think the
Commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else?
Mrs. MELLER. I am thinking and seems to be that's all.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. MELLER. How long?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. MELLER. Oh, I know him about 6 years, probably; met him very
seldom and we were never friends, real close, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he friendly with Oswald, do you know?
Mrs. MELLER. Try to help, I think was--try to help as much as we
did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried
to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later
together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs. MELLER. I do not--if I say surprised or was shocked when President
Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I
could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my
vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out
it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of
my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it
could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you.
We could not believe at first at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were very surprised when you heard it was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. We could not believe he will do things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir; three times.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three times?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir--oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service
another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name
but it was three times together.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you
once?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the Dallas police force?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas police officers?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible
for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think
it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her
fault, or what?
Mrs. MELLER. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not
know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems
to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from
somebody that he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina
told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through
and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home
the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before
he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she
has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the
tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told you that?
Mrs. MELLER. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do
not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that
something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at
anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time,
1962?
Mrs. MELLER. No, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right?
Mrs. MELLER. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months
since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it
happened--when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New
Orleans and back to Dallas?
Mrs. MELLER. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It
was the last time at Ford's family.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can
think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead.
Mrs. MELLER. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I
did not forget anything. I do not think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I
want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down
and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it
very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you
very much.
Mrs. MELLER. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL
The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right
hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?
Mrs. HALL. I sure do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert
Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission
investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from
other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been
granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.
It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the
Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two
documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to
the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. With that letter were included copies of those documents
referred to, isn't that correct?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you today about your knowledge of
Lee and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of
your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned
from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with
Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at
approximately Easter of 1963?
Mrs. HALL. Yes, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, will you state your full name for the
record?
Mrs. HALL. Elena A. Hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Mr. John R. Hall, isn't that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort
Worth, isn't that right?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born in Iran? In what town?
Mrs. HALL. Tehran.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mrs. HALL. 1926.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents
were originally from Russia, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did they move to Tehran?
Mrs. HALL. 1920 or 1921.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia had they lived prior to that time?
Mrs. HALL. The last in Baku.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your
parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran?
Mrs. HALL. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father
was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after
he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they eventually move to the United States?
Mrs. HALL. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit
and went back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they still living in Tehran?
Mrs. HALL. No; both are dead.
Mr. LIEBELER. Both are dead?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the
United States, if you would.
Mrs. HALL. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I
knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and
have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States.
My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me
that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I
can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to
New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So
he wanted--instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to the United States, Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. HALL. 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1957?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational
background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States?
Mrs. HALL. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5
years in Russian school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specialize in any special field during your
education?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a general education?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you married your husband in New York and
subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth----
Mrs. HALL. We were married in Fort Worth and I came here.
Mr. LIEBELER. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were
first married in 19----
Mrs. HALL. 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again
in November of 1962, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife
Marina Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of
your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go
right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the
Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you
as little as possible.
Mrs. HALL. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at
that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our
house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you and your husband divorced at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do
something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him
that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do
with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to
$75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that,
so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was
sometime in July, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1962?
Mrs. HALL. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were.
They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I
told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money.
And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in
this way I start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her
some clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Marina money from time to time?
Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her.
George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you money besides Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. HALL. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my
employer's wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her first name?
Mrs. HALL. Loraine Patterson.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much money did she give you, do you remember?
Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. It was $10, or $15.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did Bouhe give you?
Mrs. HALL. Twenty dollars.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is
that correct?
Mrs. HALL. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in
Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else give you any money for the Oswalds?
Mrs. HALL. No; I spent myself, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. For them?
Mrs. HALL. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I
bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries
until they moved to my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether
you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they
moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth?
Mrs. HALL. My money or just general?
Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether. You said that you thought Bouhe had given you
$20?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been
$30 or $35?
Mrs. HALL. I spent probably $25 or $30 myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be $50 to $60?
Mrs. HALL. Something like that, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story.
Mrs. HALL. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime
because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my
work. And then after they--I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he
decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move.
And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with
the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't
you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and
then you can move?" So that's what they did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas
looking for a job?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when Marina moved to your
house?
Mrs. HALL. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly
when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you helped Marina move from the
apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you
borrowed?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the
moving?
Mrs. HALL. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas
that night, that afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that
helped you with the moving?
Mrs. HALL. No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't very much to move?
Mrs. HALL. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first
time when George went----
Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?
Mrs. HALL. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child
and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very
nice about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate what Mr. Bouhe was doing
for him?
Mrs. HALL. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In
fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't
remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all
kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee
came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw
in the kitchen----
Mr. LIEBELER. This was while Marina was living at your house?
Mrs. HALL. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and
he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are
not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange
man, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you
purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child
except for what Mr. Bouhe brought?
Mrs. HALL. Well, nobody else would do it. She was living in my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support
of the family at that time?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer to contribute?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us about how long Marina lived in your house?
Mrs. HALL. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they
moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of
October and I stayed in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the
hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I
stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of
October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they
were gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know exactly when they moved out?
Mrs. HALL. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with
Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital?
Mrs. HALL. That--not that I know. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Marina?
Mrs. HALL. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one
day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about
the past.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to
Dallas from Fort Worth?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I heard that he lived in YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
Mrs. HALL. I heard from two friends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who particularly told you?
Mrs. HALL. Yes, Mrs. Clark.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George
Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have
lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at
any time in Dallas?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She
borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought
a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I
bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the
sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's
parents lived in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband?
Mrs. HALL. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second
time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them
after they moved from my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing
machine?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see her using it?
Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought
it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with
the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just
sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any clothes that Marina made with the sewing
machine?
Mrs. HALL. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends
of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and
things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina know how to use the sewing machine?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her
sewing, but she said she could.
Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you
understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to
her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat
her all the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her?
Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with
George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't
ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina,
what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you
remember exactly when that was?
Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised,
is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it wasn't until October or November----
Mrs. HALL. October when she moved.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a
result of her husband beating her, is that right?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house,
did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told
her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd
better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better
financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't
know."
And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If
you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And
she said, "No; I don't think so."
She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever
will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did
not have normal sexual relations.
Mrs. HALL. Very seldom. The thing that she told me, "Very seldom."
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me everything that you can remember about that
subject that Marina told you.
Mrs. HALL. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not
have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only
thing she told me.
And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my
business, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that Marina said about that subject?
Mrs. HALL. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her
to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would--was not very
much of a man in that sense?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. That is what she told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. They very seldom had sexual relations?
Mrs. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with her any other
time?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were
getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your
house, other than what we have already talked about?
Mrs. HALL. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him
about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That
is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't
like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers.
John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I
ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of
everything, hot peppers."
And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And
after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some
people like them and some don't."
Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an
argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife
to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a
good wife?
Mrs. HALL. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48
hours a day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble
because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so
on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald
in front of other people?
Mrs. HALL. Who?
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina making fun of Lee?
Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes; she would do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any specific examples?
Mrs. HALL. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He
is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that.
Not complete man.
Mr. LIEBELER. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not
just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination
of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was.
Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other
people, or was it a more general thing?
Mrs. HALL. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I
asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more
about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if
there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely
Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your opinion?
Mrs. HALL. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would
pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear them argue about politics?
Mrs. HALL. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the
Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a
conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in
Russia?"
And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the
restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would
get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on.
And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life
in Russia than Marina did?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a common thing for them to argue about?
Mrs. HALL. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions,
she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in
Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think----
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's
apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or
magazines that you saw?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the
downtown library, Fort Worth Library.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether these books related to particular
subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do remember that?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I
think. I don't remember any names.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the specific names of any of the books?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian, Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Lee Oswald in Russian?
Mrs. HALL. All the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian
language?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?
Mrs. HALL. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could
read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him,
I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her
learn English?"
And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't
need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English."
And he said, "No, I won't." He never will talk English to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also speak to Marina in Russian?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well
could she speak Russian?
Mrs. HALL. Very well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was she better able to speak Russian than Lee Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the
Russian language?
Mrs. HALL. Very good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it grammatically correct, would you say?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your own command of the Russian language good, would
you say?
Mrs. HALL. I thought it was good, and I think it is good, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. What language did you learn as a child?
Mrs. HALL. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that was the first language you spoke, is that right?
Mrs. HALL. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school.
Then I was in Russian school again.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also speak French?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your language in Iran? Iranian?
Mrs. HALL. Armenian. And I think----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Turkish?
Mrs. HALL. Turkish a little bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to speak to Marina Oswald in English?
Mrs. HALL. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach
her something.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not
speak English at all?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the
conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't
understand all little things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July
of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could
understand at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I think it was the same thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went
on, is that right?
Mrs. HALL. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her
books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was
sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and
sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all
that I know that she has of English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Peter Gregory?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his son, Paul?
Mrs. HALL. No; I never met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of Paul Gregory to you?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Gary Taylor?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house--in
fact, I just came out from the hospital accident--this Gary Taylor and
his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort
Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of
George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of
his?
Mrs. HALL. I saw him altogether maybe three or four times.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to De Mohrenschildt about Lee Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. I don't think I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend
of Oswald's?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close
with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and
didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive an automobile?
Mrs. HALL. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking
something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?"
And he said, "No".
I said "How come?"
He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school
can drive a car. How come you can't?"
And he said, "Well, I just can't."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Oswald learning how to drive a car?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you
could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina
ever did get her teeth fixed?
Mrs. HALL. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe
made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she
came--and extracted them and came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be
done?
Mrs. HALL. No; she did not tell me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who paid for it?
Mrs. HALL. No. Maybe George Bouhe did, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Marina about
religion?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she
said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was
baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion
and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the
baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek
Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and
she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one
night, her and the baby, and we--I am a godmother of the child. And,
of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of
course, didn't like it at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything, specifically that he said about
that?
Mrs. HALL. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas--I asked her,
and she said, of course, he didn't like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you
went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Me, Marina, and the child--Lee----
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time?
What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection?
Mrs. HALL. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree,
no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?"
And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a
Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree."
Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was
Christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a
commercialized holiday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband said in response to
that remark by Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at
Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to
Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and--we will
come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants,
she can go with you."
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to
Church?
Mrs. HALL. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't
believe in nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever go to church with you and your husband?
Mrs. HALL. No; she never did go. Well, I never did see them after
Easter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know after Marina moved out of your house where
she went?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess they had an apartment at Elsbeth.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth
Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved
around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went
to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a
couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment
on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after
she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in
Dallas?
Mrs. HALL. I think they had an argument and she left one night and
she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is
everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just
hear things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any direct knowledge of that instance?
Mrs. HALL. No; I mean I wasn't in touch with them at all, never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's
apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was
discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as
to what the conversation was?
Mrs. HALL. With him?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; with him or with Marina.
Mrs. HALL. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work.
And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for
himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business
for myself."
And he said something about security, I don't have any security here
on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he
said something about Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how
long he was going to have his job?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you
don't have to worry about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate that he wanted to go to Russia?
Mrs. HALL. No; well, he never did say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return
to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but
she never did want to go back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I was telling her--she said the life is so bad there.
Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They
don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed
her--she don't have relatives--I think she has only, I mean she don't
have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss
them but I wouldn't like to go back and live."
Mr. LIEBELER. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to
Russia; is that right?
Mrs. HALL. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to
just get out from that place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get that impression?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I don't know, because I don't think she ever loved him.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that
statement on?
Mrs. HALL. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were
married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she
never did like him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married
Oswald to come to the United States?
Mrs. HALL. No; she never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to
whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States?
Mrs. HALL. I think I mentioned to somebody. I don't remember who.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in
the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why
Marina married Oswald, or do you?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't know what they thought.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to
take a gift to the baby, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the
baby and yourself and your husband?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at
that time?
Mrs. HALL. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we
will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was any--was there any further conversation about
Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember?
Mrs. HALL. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina
told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he
lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of
those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found
out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are
you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn.
"Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was
a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all
day and eat trout. Fish and eat."
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was not working at that time?
Mrs. HALL. No; he wasn't working.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he worked in Dallas when he had a job?
Mrs. HALL. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know,
printing pictures or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection,
all the conversation that occurred at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the last time you saw Lee Oswald, is that right?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to
New Orleans, Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. HALL. I didn't know it. I heard it again that they moved.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mrs. HALL. I think Mrs. Max Clark.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband
about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think I mentioned to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said and what you said?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't think we said anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband told you when you
heard that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John,
thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to
New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia?
Mrs. HALL. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of that conversation?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark,
because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes
more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We
don't see him very much, these Russian people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political conversations with Oswald?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to Oswald's political views?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that opinion?
Mrs. HALL. That he is a Communist and nobody can change him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You formed that opinion because of books and literature
that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you
about him?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have
learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that
here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I
was raised in a very anti-Communist family.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't have much sympathy with Oswald's attitude?
Mrs. HALL. No; none at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to
Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she tell you that?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it
was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes
here in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of
these classes?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked
her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I
have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and
Rubenstein or Ruby?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about
his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had
never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they
live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found
this apartment in Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never mentioned Lee's mother to you at all?
Mrs. HALL. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas,
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You later learned from reading the newspaper that
Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard Lee Oswald mention his mother at any
time?
Mrs. HALL. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look,
or if he had something to read, he would read.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read quite a bit?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he
did with his time when he wasn't at work?
Mrs. HALL. He was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had
other than his work?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at
the little pond in Dallas?
Mrs. HALL. That is when he didn't have any job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were
divorced. That was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. What?
Mrs. HALL. I said, that was all he was coming, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that
you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York,
that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting
along?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when
I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got
married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this
Kleinlerer any more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since then?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about
what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone?
Mrs. HALL. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to
grocery store, and sometimes she would take her.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries
for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did
you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery
store, or something like that? What was it?
Mrs. HALL. I didn't give her money that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did she get groceries during the time that you were
gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do
you know?
Mrs. HALL. I don't know. Maybe Mrs. Clark or Mr. Kleinlerer paid for
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries?
Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. But during the time that you and Marina both were living
at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did both you and Marina live in the house
together?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you were actually together in the house?
Mrs. HALL. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact--that time
when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked
overtime at nights.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you doing work as a dental technician at that time?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these
various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the
reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you
present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had
in Russia?
Mrs. HALL. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't
remember, really. I never did talk about this with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you
were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you?
Mrs. HALL. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I
don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Marina worked, too?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income
when he was in Russia from any source other than his job?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he
received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. HALL. No; I never heard of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on
when he was in Russia?
Mrs. HALL. I don't know. He never did mention it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of
such a thing?
Mrs. HALL. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we
were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their
possessions? You said that you moved them?
Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that
right?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia,
where she lived and what kind of things she did?
Mrs. HALL. Not very much, really.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had been born in Leningrad?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved
to Minsk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they
returned to the United States?
Mrs. HALL. Well, because I think he changed his mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any specific reasons that made him change his
mind?
Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave
Russia and come back to the United States together like they did?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; it was kind of strange.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with the Oswalds?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?
Mrs. HALL. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the
papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean,
we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called
Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know.
Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally
John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and
all the Russians told probably, it is okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian
people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the
Soviet Union and come back?
Mrs. HALL. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him
over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking
to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you read in the paper after the
assassination, isn't that right?
Mrs. HALL. No; I think it was in the paper at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. When they came back from Russia?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian
friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's
return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to
leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything
that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would
like to have it.
Mrs. HALL. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we
thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these
people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a
Russian agent?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that
Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mrs. HALL. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one
thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--I don't
know how to express myself--person, that I never thought he could do
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Like shoot the President, you mean?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the
assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way,
did it?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs. HALL. Very much so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it
then?
Mrs. HALL. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting,
after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you
hear? Lee Oswald--Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?"
I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee
Oswald's name."
And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was
Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian
group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this?
Mrs. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you
ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government
for any reason?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long
time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to
return from Russia?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk
about President Kennedy in any way?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Governor Connally?
Mrs. HALL. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have
had with Mr. Nixon?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any
discussion about him?
Mrs. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs.
Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship
with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I
haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you
should add at this point?
Mrs. HALL. I wish I knew more.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think we pretty well covered everything?
Mrs. HALL. Yes; that is all, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very
much, Mrs. Hall.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL
The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?
Mr. HALL. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the
assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your
testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of
Congress 137.
Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of
procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I
believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would
contact you this week to take your testimony.
Have you received copies of those documents?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever
knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts
that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.
Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would
you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just
he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any
difference?
Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that
you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?
Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?
Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company?
Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to
Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948.
And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort
Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. HALL. 1928.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1928?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name?
Mr. HALL. Elena Hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall?
Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently
divorced?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried?
Mr. HALL. In November of 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Oswald?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital
difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.
I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in
about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort
Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe
it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one
of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she,
through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark,
although Gali wasn't involved in this----
Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia?
Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born
in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?
Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in
their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.
All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips.
As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and
ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the
line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to
their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe,
and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De
Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this
Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the
meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they
already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there
while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time?
Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I
discussed this.
That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here
in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me
that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and
dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George
Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was
on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we
would like to give this guy a job.
It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the
personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray
Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job
through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time
being.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job
through the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this
first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you
then meet Oswald?
Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you?
Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you
talked about?
Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back
from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was
telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.
So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent
magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are
destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about
Russia.
We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing
really important was said, that I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia?
Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by
his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and
getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at
that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and
this Taylor fellow.
Do you mind if I smoke?
Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not.
Go right ahead.
Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any
detail?
Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail,
several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in
from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.
I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday
morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and
spent most of the day there.
And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was
the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.
The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the
house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few
minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with
Marina, Thursday or Friday.
Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I
was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.
Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our
house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and
Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and
ate with them.
And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia
a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was
really led by Max.
He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system
of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic
principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth.
This was about all that was said there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia
in the first place?
Mr. HALL. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they
were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I
only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a
discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up?
Mr. HALL. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after--this was
the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came
back and we remarried November 17, I believe--we didn't see Oswald
again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for
the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems
like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church
at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on
Sunday afternoon.
Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been
during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas
time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Oswald lived then?
Mr. HALL. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff,
Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to
why he went to Russia?
Mr. HALL. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real
strongly religious--I mean not to any extreme, but I have my
firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our
Christianity--I am a Baptist--I mentioned to Oswald--this is what
touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a Christmas tree. We
wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents,
probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have
a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that
he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized,
and so forth.
When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was
actually the first time I think that--this is the third time that I saw
him--I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when
he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything
specific--when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally.
I might not have seemed that way--I didn't get mad or anything, but I
didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I
asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in
Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us.
And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this
Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a book there?
Mr. HALL. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian
literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he
had?
Mr. HALL. No; I really don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. HALL. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he
didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to
come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right,
but I am not going to go."
About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we
had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had
accomplished the purpose, so we left.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons
why he went to Russia?
Mr. HALL. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight.
I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the
system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along
down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as
could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in
his job and didn't like the whole setup."
And I wondered why. And he said, "He didn't have security."
And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work
and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it
seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and
learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would
be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of
life.
And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was
real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he
told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United
States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where
his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that
everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the
reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as
he was just unhappy with all of our systems.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return
to Russia?
Mr. HALL. Yes; and even at this time--in fact, I don't remember, I
don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go
back.
And I know this to be real definite that--I don't know how you want
that--because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from
the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word
got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was
in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew
that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia.
So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me,
or told me directly--I think it was more directly, because I know at
that time he wanted to go back to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so
many words?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told
her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his
way to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at
Easter of 1963?
Mr. HALL. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion,
but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit
harder at that time than I had before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during
the time that he had previously been there?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working
in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about
the terrible expense of shoes and clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory?
Mr. HALL. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really
don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't
remember what it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving
income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might
have gone on in Russia?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or
the use of firearms?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we
met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just
about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn
English?
Mr. HALL. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more
important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for
her to learn English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina
Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood
English?
Mr. HALL. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she
could understand anything further than hello.
Mr. LIEBELER. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the
fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to
use English throughout that entire time, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S.
Government for any reason that you can remember?
Mr. HALL. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I
don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together
with Oswald, and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told
me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt--and we are just middle-income
people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were
true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in
the bedroom and one in the living room.
This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like
electric can openers and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social
system?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him say anything about President
Kennedy?
Mr. HALL. Never.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the
United States and leave Russia?
Mr. HALL. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is
because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about
wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he
told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas
or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to
go back to Russia.
And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia
about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I
wondered why.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about
it?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time
that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times
that you saw him?
Mr. HALL. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he
was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use.
And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings
for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave
my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they?
Mr. HALL. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I
think there were several people. My wife would know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gave clothes to Marina?
Mr. HALL. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to
my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where
people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him
the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this
magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I
had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason
we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to
take her an Easter bunny.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly?
Mr. HALL. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr. HALL. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on
it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no thoughts at the time before the
assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in
any respect, did you?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you really consider or question, or you just never
thought of it?
Mr. HALL. Just never thought of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other thing that you might know
about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife
wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point?
I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more
familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like
Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald,
and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you
become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties
with their marriage?
Mr. HALL. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I
don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that
he beat her up one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up?
Mr. HALL. I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having
marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs.
Hall's house in Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was
because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. To give him a chance to get settled; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help the Oswalds move?
Mr. HALL. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at
Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from
her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped
him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall when you went to New York?
Mr. HALL. Well, we got back--we were married on the 17th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of November?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that,
which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back
and--a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business,
and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and
we were married on the 17th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your
wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first
move into the house with your wife?
Mr. HALL. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of
October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually
came back from New York--you see I came back a week earlier than she
did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New
York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since
she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part
of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know
what day, I don't think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you weren't there when she moved out?
Mr. HALL. No; we were in New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was gone when you got back?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas
during the time his wife was living in your house?
Mr. HALL. We understood--this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I
guess--that he was living at the YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to
the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in
Dallas before taking that apartment?
Mr. HALL. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from
Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address
on Neely Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. N-e-e-l-y?
Mr. HALL. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it
was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them
or gave any money to Marina?
Mr. HALL. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for
Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the
time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy
groceries for the Oswalds at other times?
Mr. HALL. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and
George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery
Ward.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to
the Oswalds during that period of time, do you?
Mr. HALL. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in
dollars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service?
Mr. HALL. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military
service.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you might know about
Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think
the Commission should know?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to
Mexico?
Mr. HALL. Not to me; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to
anybody else?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. HALL. Not at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't surprised?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?
Mr. HALL. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and
said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in
our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on
the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes
later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were
sure it was Oswald, then all of us--I am talking about my wife and Mrs.
Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not
surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like
that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew
that knew him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed
during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and
if he did it, what his motive was?
Mr. HALL. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I
actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way
he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If
he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done
something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely
out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this
is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this
book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so
set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't
have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I
was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise,
was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a
chance to change his thinking.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that these political attitudes of his were
somehow related to his involvement in the assassination?
Mr. HALL. Say that again?
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic
attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate
the President? Or were related to it?
Mr. HALL. My--this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely
feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our
economic way of life by doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express
his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved
of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking?
Mr. HALL. Exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition
for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally?
Mr. HALL. No; I didn't think of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this
before the assassination?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in
that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your
mind prior to the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part.
Mr. LIEBELER. He really didn't care what people thought about him?
Mr. HALL. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really
believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy
if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia
and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was
looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems,
no money problems, no rent problems--you see what I mean, just a
middle-of-the-roader.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be
excellent at things?
Mr. HALL. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas
which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would
go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a
middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type
person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is
going to change him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any
discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was
possibly an agent of the Soviet Union.
Mr. HALL. This came up after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no discussion about that prior to the
assassination, that you can remember?
Mr. HALL. As an agent for Russia before, no, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the
assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. HALL. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider the question after the assassination and
you did discuss it?
Mr. HALL. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In
that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just
my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is
not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words,
he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He
couldn't take the orders.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of
authority, generally speaking?
Mr. HALL. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he
must have had a lot of authority above him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was
resentful of authority?
Mr. HALL. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He
was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just
resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge
him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or
anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just
our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can
remember, why he was resentful of it?
Mr. HALL. Insecurity, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as jobs were concerned?
Mr. HALL. Basically, that's right; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at
this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA)
The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m.,
on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness.
If you will rise and raise your right hand, please----
Mrs. RAY. Surely. (Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mrs. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise
you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you
a letter last week?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. With which he included copies of the Executive order----
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules
of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony.
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received the letter and copies of the documents?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically
with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a
result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that,
I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you
would.
Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Frank H. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. RAY. I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ray?
Mrs. RAY. In Stalino, Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mrs. RAY. June 9, 1927.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States?
Mrs. RAY. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and
they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942
until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live.
Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Germany?
Mrs. RAY. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that
part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an
American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name?
Mrs. RAY. Henry W. Bahlkow.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was a member of the U.S. Army?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, 36th Division and he was--I don't know what outfit at
the time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present
address if that help.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living in St. Louis?
Mrs. RAY. No, Hicksville, Long Island?
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his address?
Mrs. RAY. I forget number--Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street--it would
be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an
electrical engineer over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were taken from Russia at the age of 14?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work for the Germans after that time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal
education?
Mrs. RAY. Let's say it stopped it completely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What formal educational background do you have?
Mrs. RAY. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think--I
don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten
into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare
schools here to school over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any formal education other than that?
Mrs. RAY. When I came over here I went to International Institute in
St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went
to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington
University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen
papers and I became citizen 1949.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mrs. RAY. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of
1954; I remarried.
Mr. LIEBELER. What does your present husband do?
Mrs. RAY. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name
of Pollock and Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is located in Dallas?
Mrs. RAY. 3508 Dickason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina
Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could
come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been
staying at Mrs. Ford's house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina had?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see
if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to
have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with
baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure
about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since
I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved
her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that
Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me
if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come
out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my
husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest.
He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some
kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in
the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime
so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and
she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so
my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an
apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't
see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or
4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my
neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed
about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there then?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable
because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out
of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these
clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't
seem to be ungrateful but looked like "We don't need it." He didn't
say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee did not thank you for the clothes?
Mrs. RAY. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I
talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house
and talked with his wife----
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment
prior to that time?
Mrs. RAY. I got impression that they did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember how you got that impression?
Mrs. RAY. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take
her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?"
She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment
was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when
I talked to her on everything she described apartment--"I have living
room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"--so I am almost certain that is
the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He
just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with
her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's
and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea
where she has been.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the
Oswalds marital difficulties?
Mrs. RAY. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her;
he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry
for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English
and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that
he struck her or beat her up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what
reason for beating her up?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since
she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't
like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you
leave--I am not that nosey.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to
Mrs. Ford's to pick her up?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard about her prior to that time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a
new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I
am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very
much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been
almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was
very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on
now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why
Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were?
Mrs. RAY. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at
all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina
left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the
clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's
house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to
talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's
place on Elsbeth.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the
day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina----
Mrs. RAY. Yes; at my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your
recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation
was?
Mrs. RAY. My talk with him mostly just on--what did I talk to him
about? I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just
sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did
get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics.
He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made
all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something
about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some
things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for
him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation
in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not
know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband
just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his
life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this
country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the
world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little
to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian
or in English?
Mrs. RAY. In Russian at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina could understand English?
Mrs. RAY. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like
simple words like if I say bread or--I would say she did not understand
maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use
every day in the kitchen, not any English at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did
not try to teach Marina English?
Mrs. RAY. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina
why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask
Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that
when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English
to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say in response to that?
Mrs. RAY. I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all
time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald make any response to that?
Mrs. RAY. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was
absolutely--you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get
answer. He did not say one word.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald drank at all?
Mrs. RAY. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink.
I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I
don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period
but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink
because he would have said I don't care for any today or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything more about the conversation
that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my
cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping
the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not
find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough
to discuss anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in
Russia, where she was born, where she was raised?
Mrs. RAY. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember
where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by
her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or
aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and
the first time--like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to
so and so and by that time, it got to me--first I heard about was she
was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in
Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did Marina tell you that?
Mrs. RAY. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I
understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived
with her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that
information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's?
Mrs. RAY. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I
mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see
her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She
is the first Russian I met here in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New
Year's, 1962?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Oswald there?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some
hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much
surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said
"Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people.
He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to
spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there
is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so,
it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how
is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and
I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter;
somebody was talking care.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how Oswald came to the party?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; later on "Katya"----
Mr. LIEBELER. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]?
Mrs. RAY. Katya told me--that is Mrs. Ford--George De Mohren--it's
something; I don't know him very well at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; they brought them to the party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the
Oswalds left the part?
Mrs. RAY. None.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or
during the period following the Ford party in which the question of
whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?
Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party
for--normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time
of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one
time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone
since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about
Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work
and she did not say. I really have no information after that party.
I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I
never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it
from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way,
you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me
and I have never discussed it with anyone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back
to Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the
assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. Not--I do not know enough because--I do not know anything
about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently,
therefore, I usually stay away from that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the
assassination based on your exposure to her?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably
would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so
little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her
to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything
she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her
because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country
and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I
was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent
person?
Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it
was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very
nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she
was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite
intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature?
Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little
immature.
Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just
as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to
another country. In your own country might not be considered immature
but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things,
people might consider you immature where you really not.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the
assassination?
Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house
when she had to go down for questioning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was?
Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington?
Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was
after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I
took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days
later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have
to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in
Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over
and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more
time and that was last time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those
questions.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it?
Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?"
And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss
him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him."
And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that
is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not
about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to
bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she
wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to
her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it?
Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she
thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret
Service and FBI?
Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same,
everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a
story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life
of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. RAY. In the papers?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all?
Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on
Richard Nixon. I did not know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he
wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.
Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am
sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I
missed that one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with
Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to
do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go
to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists
school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked
about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald
had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I
remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how
or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone
else?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit
suicide or attempt to?
Mrs. RAY. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian?
Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak
Russian?
Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending,
every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were
not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by
foreigner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I
think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak
English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than
English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in
Russia to learn perfect it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about
what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you
think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?
Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were
mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know.
I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would
speak.
Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the
Russian language?
Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in
Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs.
Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad,
you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad;
when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from
Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about
Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from
Leningrad to Minsk, if she did?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met
Oswald in Russia and why she married him?
Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love
and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her
about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what
was said?
Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked
her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what
did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have
said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask
how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that
funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they
said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is?
Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald
just to get out of Russia, did you?
Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had
a lot to do with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"?
Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first
chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into
Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany.
I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was
far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back
to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her
mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an
American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own
experience.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of
your acquaintance?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he
was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly
and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did
not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even
though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in
connection with the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not
believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee
Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they
suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I
know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first
I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had
not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called
Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee
Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it
was him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised?
Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew
Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so
shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any
kind of opinion what kind of person he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous
or prone to violence?
Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he
was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when
I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met
him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he
struck Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the
Oswalds?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes?
Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just
gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small
children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my
2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear
corduroy pants and stuff like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any
money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?
Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly.
I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things
but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George
Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if
they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing
company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend
any money?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store.
She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by
us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that
night Lee came over to your house?
Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly
it was he begged her to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about?
Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to
come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and
begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your
husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or
have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as
to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one
who killed the President?
Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say
did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say
to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we
would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone
else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was
connected with anyone, but done it on his own.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it?
Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really
knows what prompted him to do such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about
any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything
about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with
Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place
like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in
Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee
Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and
I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go
to nightclub. He despised them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination
or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?
Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few
weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was
very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody
else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime
when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and
ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was
positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my
presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until
she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he
would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until
now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He
worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that
child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I
do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved
you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after
this all happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's
attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?
Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did
hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to
me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not
discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the
assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina
was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian
group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything
like that may have been the case?
Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are
older people.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason
to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?
Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect
anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to
tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody
at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he
looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the
effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have
bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to
buy a rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point.
I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission
might want to know about or should know about.
Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr.
George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took
us out, her and me, to lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We
were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had
left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both
knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had
to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay
at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her
in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time
and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more.
Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are
going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald
came and got her before we did anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would
have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands
clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when
I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone
and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will
help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it
amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?
Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes.
I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living
here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have
money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to
this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to
school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired
of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on
her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was
resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying
to interfere with his marriage?
Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not
think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian
thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference
with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and
food for her baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald
resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of
taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to
interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?
Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when
she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes
to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything.
He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was
a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was
comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and
should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He
seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full
share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could
be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to
it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually
talking to him alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you
would like to tell us, I have no further questions.
Mrs. RAY. I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else?
Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down.
Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ
The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m.,
on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E.
Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T.
Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please?
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth in this deposition which we are about to take?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I do.
I want to add only that I will--some of my statements or even the
majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as
a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you
testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came
to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to
you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which
we call hearsay.
Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. And something else--some of the statements,
they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be
entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words.
You realize that?
Mr. JENNER. I do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you
have?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. We don't expect any more.
Mrs. VOSHININ. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We don't want any speculation on your part----
Mrs. VOSHININ. I see. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression
or impressions are and what they might not be.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; I understand.
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Igor Voshinin?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your maiden name?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Semenov, S-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. And you are a resident of Dallas?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Dallas, Tex.--right. 3504 Mockingbird.
Mr. JENNER. 3504 Mockingbird. And you are the wife of Igor Voshinin?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the
general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the
assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would
appear----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which
authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's,
the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission
and fixing its rules and affording it its powers?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of
procedure of the Commission?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents
that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've
indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President
John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking
from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and
Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in
contact with them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. I do.
Mr. JENNER. And we understand that you have some information in those
areas and I would like to inquire of you about them.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the
Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a
representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a
citizen of the United States?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born
here?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Naturalized; 1955.
Mr. JENNER. 1955; March 7?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And you were naturalized in New York City, I believe?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In New Jersey.
Mr. JENNER. In New Jersey. Where were you born?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will
spell you both names, because when I was born it was called
Labinskaja--[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has
been called Labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is.
Mr. JENNER. And orient me--where is that in Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This
is Southern Russia.
Mr. JENNER. It's in the Caucasus?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus--[spelling]
F-o-r-e--Caucasus.
Mr. JENNER. You are a person of higher education, are you not?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I hold a degree in geology. That's all.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in
America, call the equivalent of high school?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a university?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years.
It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my
bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953.
Mr. JENNER. That's Brooklyn, N.Y.?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Brooklyn, N.Y. And master's degree at Rutgers in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. Rutgers University?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Rutgers University--right; in geology.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Yugoslavia was the university that you attended?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Belgrade.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband
who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from
Russia when you were 1 year old?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Something like that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in what country were you when you first became
conscious of your whereabouts?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I was in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. In what town?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Panchevo, next to Belgrade--[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o.
And before that my parents lived for a few years--I think for a
couple of years in Bulgaria--in Varna Pleven--[spelling] V-a-r-n-a
P-l-e-v-e-n--and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates.
Mr. JENNER. That's just by reputation?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Forty-five; March 21, 1918.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Where did you meet Mr. Voshinin?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In Belgrade.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. VOSHININ. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then
I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that
I met him again.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil
engineer--as a city engineer.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I understand he's some 12 years older than you?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. Eleven and a half--something like that.
Mr. JENNER. And he was a civil engineer in----
Mrs. VOSHININ. In the city of Panchevo.
Mr. JENNER. In 1942?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. 1939?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because
he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning----
Mr. JENNER. He was?
Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drafted to the Army.
Mr. JENNER. What Army?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yugoslavian Army.
Mr. JENNER. And you were conscious of that fact, were you?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't--what do you mean, "conscious"?
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and
was in the Yugoslavian Army?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in
1940--January 21.
Mr. JENNER. January 21, 1940?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And after your marriage----
Mrs. VOSHININ. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the
exercises--you know, the Army training.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already
started--remember?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1939.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. The war started in September of 1939.
Mrs. VOSHININ. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the
Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to
appear. And then he returned back in 19--let's see, when was that?
1942--no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans
attacked us in April 1941--Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Invaded Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Invaded Yugoslavia; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you there then?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And you moved from Yugoslavia to where?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an
invitation to me, too.
Mr. JENNER. To come to Germany?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm
sorry. This is just a joke. It was--well, they would just ask you to
appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to
fill in. After that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and
there.
Mr. JENNER. You were directed to go?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany--drafted with other young people. At that
time they were doing that.
Mr. JENNER. You were drafted into the work labor force?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Into the work labor force; right.
Mr. JENNER. And you went, then, to Germany?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Austria?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria--Linz Am Donau--[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m
D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube--because there was another
Linz there in Austria.
Mr. JENNER. And you were there in Austria until when?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Until, I believe, March 1945--until the Russian troops
started approaching Linz Am Donau--because already they were on the
outskirts.
Mr. JENNER. Already they were on the outskirts?
Mrs. VOSHININ. They were already approaching. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You could hear the guns?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I didn't hear them very well--but Igor was at
that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite
distinctly--the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time
leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which.
Mr. JENNER. You wanted any direction away from the----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put
it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid.
Mr. JENNER. Your direction all your life has been away from the
Russians?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; away from the Russians.
Mr. JENNER. And you went to where?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of
course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as
you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because,
you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not
have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for
it. Because, before we left town--several days before--Germans made
an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we
stayed, we would be put to death by Russians--so, what could we lose,
you know?
Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Bavaria--and were you liberated by
anybody?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right--by lots of people. First, I believe it was
French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through
Kempten; and then came American troops.
Mr. JENNER. And you were completely liberated by them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. It was good!
Mr. JENNER. You were pleased to see the Americans?
Mrs. VOSHININ. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you
know--any friend.
Mr. JENNER. And did you come to America then?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And settled temporarily, at least initially, in New Jersey?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In New York--well, let's see. No. First of all we
settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down
there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for--I'm not sure--Gee, I
don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my
husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New
York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.--which was across the
bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is.
I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually come to Dallas?
Mrs. VOSHININ. It was in September--beginning of September 1955. I
believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September.
Mr. JENNER. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another
Texas city first?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled
in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to
stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant
there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New
York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we
decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much.
Mr. JENNER. Do you like the climate here?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Very much. Yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the
Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you
moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox
Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't
know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--I forget.
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you
see, when we were in Houston, we met there--of course, we went to the
church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest
there and----
Mr. JENNER. His name?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Father Alexander Chernay.
Mr. JENNER. Spell it.
Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "I". I don't know how he
spelled it.
And then he introduced us to Mrs. Jitkoff's mother.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, too.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died.
She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff--[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f.
3714 Locke Lane--if you need the address.
And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and
all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally--she spoke very
convincingly--she liked Texas very much--and we decided to stay here.
And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and
met George.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't know Bouhe prior to this time?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who is George Bouhe?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know
exactly for whom he worked at that time--but I know that he worked for
a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager
of the Russian parish there--Father Alexander's parish.
Mr. JENNER. What parish is that?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That was the St. Nicholas parish.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about this community of people.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, there were very few people and who we met there
were Clarks--one of the first--Gali and Max Clark--that's [spelling]
G-a-l-i.
Mr. JENNER. In what town do they live?
Mrs. VOSHININ. They live at 3712 Selkirk--[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k--in
Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark is an attorney, is he not?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Clark is----
Mrs. VOSHININ. She has also an education in the law.
Mr. JENNER. An education in law?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Europe.
Mr. JENNER. Is she a naturalized citizen?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to
Max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. She's
not a born American.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is what is her nativity? Do you know?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she said that her mother is of British
descent--Hughes. And her father was Russian--Shcherbatov. It's a very
well-known historical name.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.
Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family
by name Popoff--[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f--Nicholas Popoff.
Mr. JENNER. Does he live here?
Mrs. VOSHININ. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not
sure where he works.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a native of Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I think so.
And I believe that's--yes, there were some people of Ukrainian
background. I don't remember their names, though.
But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two
priests--young priests--one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another
one, Father Dimitri Royster.
Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] R-o-y-s-t-e-r?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. And that is where our troubles with George Bouhe
started.
I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And
Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much
better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a
church of the future.
And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they
always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that
they understand much better English. They do not understand Church
Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly
different from Russian and different from modern Russian language.
So, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with
George.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. VOSHININ. And here the trouble started.
And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new
church--practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his
church, I believe four Chichillas--[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and
I think that was about the whole parish.
And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we
resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment
sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have social intercourse with George?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Bouhe?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place--at other
people's parties once in a while, but----
Mr. JENNER. Are you employed?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Self-employed.
Mr. JENNER. Self-employed?
And, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half
a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz--both geologists. I
stayed with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as
far as I can remember--no longer than a month.
Mr. JENNER. And this was in 19----
Mrs. VOSHININ. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or
November in 1955.
And then I started working for Henry Rogatz, for whom I worked until
June 1962.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with,
George De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. VOSHININ. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And
he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and
George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help
him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there.
Mr. JENNER. Drilling projects?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he
wanted me to participate in the geology.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known this man theretofore?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz?
Mrs. VOSHININ. For Mr. Rogatz--right.
Mr. JENNER. Also, in your profession of geology?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's
present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior
history--only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his
own words.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You start and tell us what he told you----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then go from that to what you know of your own
knowledge.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Sir, I'm afraid I don't know anything of my own
knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us all he told you.
Mrs. VOSHININ. He told me that he had some former wives--that he had a
wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy.
Mr. JENNER. And that daughter's name was Alex?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Alex. Right.
And then that he had a second wife--I believe he said her name was
Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she
was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He
never talked about that.
Mr. JENNER. An entertainer of some kind?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Entertainer of some kind--right.
And he never talked about her and I understand it was a very short
marriage.
And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with
George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never
met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never
met her myself.
And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found--he met Jeanne
[pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met
Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No--I
am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the
Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married,
I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia--two trips. I'm not
sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or
trips to Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, uh-huh. We lived all the time in Dallas--all those
years.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia--and start
from the beginning, as you recall it?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well
that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to
go to Yugoslavia. And, somehow, George didn't like very much this
idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to
go--something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well
in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to
Yugoslavia.
But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells
rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from
Yugoslavia.
You see, there actually are two periods in George's life.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about it.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to
Yugoslavia. Because--of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This
is my own impression of the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; well, that's what we want.
Now, you were living here in Dallas when he went to----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went.
Mr. JENNER. At the time he went to Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And you had these conversations with him about going to
Yugoslavia before he left?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right.
Mr. JENNER. And you know he went?
Mrs. VOSHININ. And I know he went; right.
Mr. JENNER. You know, by reputation, that he went to Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. What reputation?
Mr. JENNER. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to
Yugoslavia. You do know----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but then he sent us postcards from Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. VOSHININ. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he
brought back--that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia--and he
brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought
back--photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian.
Some of them I knew--some of the places.
Mr. JENNER. You knew some of the places in Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was over there about how long?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I thought he was there about a year--something like that.
Mr. JENNER. And this was when?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I think it was in--now, that I cannot place exactly. I
think in 1957--in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm
not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959--it was before
1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York
City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So,
that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a
delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us.
Mr. JENNER. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking,
that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth
Petroleum Congress who knew George?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Knew George very well; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was
said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together
with those people. We just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to
talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite
feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason.
Mr. JENNER. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your
husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, they talked our own language. Certainly.
And we just--I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow
was there who was brought up also in Banat region--[spelling]
B-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he
was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely
afraid.
Mr. JENNER. Afraid to talk to you?
Mrs. VOSHININ. You know what he did? For some reason he would
say--"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and
let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he
would immediately cease talking, you know.
And then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd
that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny
behavior--really.
Mr. JENNER. And this Fifth Petroleum Conference was when?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1959--end of May and beginning of June, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period
of George De Mohrenschildt's career?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I would call it the second period because, first
of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the
second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for
over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That was--well, from some cracks they made. I
mean--no--well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe.
But Jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to Mr. Khrushchev, you
know.
Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the
FBI. So, I would rather say this now.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. VOSHININ. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she
never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really
angry. And it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their
talking in left direction----
Mr. JENNER. Their talking what?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know,
and once in a while they were just unpleasant.
Mr. JENNER. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife
the liberal?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would
talk--could talk either way. George--well, if he would, for example,
think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something
pro-Fascistic, he would do that.
Mr. JENNER. Saying something what?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Pro-Fascistic, you know--pro-Nazi.
Mr. JENNER. Pro-Nazi?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that
you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you
know. Communists--not communism. In fact, I never heard George--not
necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising
the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several
ways.
Mr. JENNER. He was a provocative personality, was he?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Definitely.
Mr. JENNER. He sought to provoke argument?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that
you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. He would take either side?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Either side.
Mr. JENNER. Always opposite to the other person?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. VOSHININ. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite
sympathy for the--I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in
particular.
Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask a question?
Mr. JENNER. Sure.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford.
Mr. DAVIS. I mean Declan. Excuse me.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Declan. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS. Do you know them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well when
she was married to her first husband--but not too close with her after
she married Declan. I just met them several times.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you attend the Christmas party that they had?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I did not--oh, wait a minute. That was not
Christmas party. That was New Year's party.
Mr. DAVIS. New Year's party?
Mrs. VOSHININ. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that.
Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you meet Lee Oswald there?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the
President that we attended the New Year's party.
Mr. DAVIS. Well, the one the year before?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, no. We went elsewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality--other
than in this area of argumentation and provocation.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He
had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage
absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he
complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very
well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or
something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background.
Mr. JENNER. Was he unconventional?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--what does that mean exactly?
Mr. JENNER. He didn't dress normally----
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's true; yes.
Mr. JENNER. He would come to church in shorts?----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. He would walk into your home without invitation?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. He was that way.
Mr. DAVIS. Sort of a beatnik?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, no; not beatnik--but he was definitely
nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you
know, object to.
Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the feelings of others?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely
enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to--in any way.
For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock
them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they
are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The
conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish
people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know.
He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children
in that respect--honestly. And what the trouble is with George and
Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme
bitterness--extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their
former life.
Mr. JENNER. Bitterness?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Toward life, toward people, toward--you know, they
thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example,
Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort
of thing. And so and so on.
Mr. JENNER. They were unreligious people?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists.
Mr. JENNER. They were aggressive atheists?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in,
sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the
form, mainly--because, after all, everybody should have his own belief.
There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in
which they did it, you know, the impoliteness.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people?
Mrs. VOSHININ. To help people?
Mr. DAVIS. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help
someone that needed help?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature,
they are very, very good natured--definitely. They're for the
underdog, you know--always. And--well, compared to George Bouhe, whose
whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it
or not, you know--they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not
bother so much about people as George Bouhe did.
Mr. JENNER. They weren't aggressive about it as George Bouhe was?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. But they were very--are very good natured.
Mr. JENNER. And generous people?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Not George--no. Jeanne, yes; but not George.
For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very,
very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in
any way they could.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet
either one of the Oswalds?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; uh-uh.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about the Oswalds?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn
about their existence? Fix the time, first.
Mrs. VOSHININ. My husband read it in the newspaper.
Mr. JENNER. That would be in June of 1962?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say.
Mr. JENNER. They arrived here in----
Mrs. VOSHININ. They arrived here and there was an article in the
newspaper.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. They arrived in New York on the 12th day of June 1962?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know about----
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just telling you that that's so.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. And then your husband read an item in the local
paper--about what?
Mrs. VOSHININ. About them arriving here and from where did they come.
They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived here and----
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in this article that arrested your
attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance
or happenings in Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the
article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my
friends--first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances.
They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't
tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is
a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish.
Mr. JENNER. Boorish?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the
right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that
we don't want to associate with him at that time.
And the second time I heard from them--no, between that time--between
Clarks and De Mohrenschildts--I heard from them some other people in
the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them.
Mr. JENNER. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds--about
two Oswalds. Right?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and
somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I
heard--the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of
Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. In conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political
inclinations?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did they say and who said it--which of them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather
remarks on George's side--because we asked George definitely and Jeanne
not to bring him to our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds
are there because we had certain reasons--not evidence--but reasons to
believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not
sure at all whether he would be or not.
Mr. JENNER. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want
to have anything to do with them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De
Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that
he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then,
later--that was at the beginning--that was at the very beginning--and
then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a
little bit. That's my own opinion--impression.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you go ahead and talk.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know,
I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You
know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in
theory but not in practice.
And finally I remember a pretty good conversation--George mentioned the
possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you
know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was."
And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George
right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement.
And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because
he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia--and then,
of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a
Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I
remember that argument--but more than that, I just can't say, because I
just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again,
you know--the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up
about Oswald. What did you mean by that?
Mrs. VOSHININ. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him,
definitely for a period. You know, that he was just--that he just was
a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let
anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person--especially a
person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right?
Mr. JENNER. They let him in in the first place?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans
for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2
years.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left
in--oh--the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962.
Mrs. VOSHININ. 1962? So, it's three years. Right?
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Then, for these 3 years--this is all our own theory, we
have no----
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.
Mrs. VOSHININ. You understand?
For these 3 years, he could have got his training? Right? Whatever it
is.
Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children--with
child, wife, and with suitcases--no problem there. Which is absolutely
unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their
families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases.
And, thirdly, we believed that--we were expecting, rather, to hear
from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know,
reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know,
we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in
communism, came here sincerely--like people we know. For example,
Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior
after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was
unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back.
Right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. According to George, he was a great--he had
great intellectual power; he was very clever person--definitely
intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was--he
couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual
person to go get his living lecturing against communism?
Mr. JENNER. Were you harkening back to your own history----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. I might have done it if I hadn't had my own
profession.
Mr. JENNER. That you were able to obtain positions?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position.
Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember
exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed
their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other
people----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. But--the other point was that it would really help
Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn
some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on
anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to
the factory--or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he
worked--instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right?
Mr. JENNER. Right.
Mrs. VOSHININ. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for
being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this.
Mr. JENNER. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his
learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to
lecture?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his
mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really
never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very
well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very
interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt--say, "Well,
why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?"
Mrs. VOSHININ. I remember I did ask that--and I don't remember the
exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I
remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia,
or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd
leave that up to him.
Mr. DAVIS. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke
fluent Russian?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good
Russian.
Mr. DAVIS. Did he ever discuss where he learned to speak Russian so
fluently?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote--I don't
remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what
Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you
know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember.
Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were
working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2
years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian--just from
the fact of working--just from the fact of working there?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I think so. Yes; I think so--because, after all, you
rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the
time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more
suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that
Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia--modern apartment. And they
just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have
to earn that to get it.
Mr. DAVIS. Did she tell this to you?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other
people--I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe.
Mr. DAVIS. That they had a very nice apartment?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. What would a nice apartment in Russia be? Just one room?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. JENNER. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?"
What did you think they had?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought
of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a
bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice
according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another
little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like
him; that his workers actually hated him.
And that was another hint to me--that why did they hate him? Usually,
Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners.
Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe
he reported on them--or something like that. You know, little by
little--but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken
separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it
together and it sort of tells something to us, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You go right ahead. What you put together and what
impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing
out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be
embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these
impressions, why, what you base them on--and I understand that you are
rationalizing.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did you want to ask a question, Mr. Davis?
Mr. DAVIS. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to
you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; he never did.
Mr. DAVIS. You don't recall anything about them being in Moscow?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in
Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper--or maybe his mother
mentioned it--his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother
mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the
American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere.
Some of her gossip, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Some of her gossip?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these
impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of
the time----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since
November 22, 1963.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And that's what you are doing, is it not?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Fine.
We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your
fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in
Russia and had come to America with his wife and child----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak,
you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted
reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who
was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you
expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not,
and these were things he wasn't doing--from which you concluded you had
some misgivings, at least.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And have you recounted all of that now?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have completed your rationalizing statement in that
connection?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a
series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to
the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with
respect to trips to Houston, Tex.?
Mrs. VOSHININ. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very
little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his
business affairs--but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. To Houston?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I mean to Houston. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Were these regular?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow,
with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time,
prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all.
We just didn't give much thought to that.
Mr. JENNER. But you noticed it?
Mrs. VOSHININ. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always
expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our
house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone
number, you know, to call him--and it would be from Houston.
But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely
impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went
a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his
private business--private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee
Sharples--concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement
there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these
Houston trips recently?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips
before November 22--because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned
to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to
bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell
exactly why, but she said something about some people--some character
whom he is visiting in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Character?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you gather from that? Did she use the word
"character"?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; _Teep_ [phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means
"character" in English. You know, it means type of a person.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character--but what kind
of a person?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, unsavory character.
Mr. JENNER. Unsavory character?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood politically unsavory.
Mr. JENNER. Politically unsavory?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's what I understood.
And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise
that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again--and I assumed
that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Did they name the person?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she
said something--I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we
thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well,
you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you
know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you
can see why he thinks. [laughing]
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect
on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some
connection with Oswald?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Never. No. In fact, we didn't think of Oswald very much.
Mr. JENNER. I am talking about your rationalizing last night or----
Mrs. VOSHININ. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had
something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business
trips.
Mr. JENNER. But you do know that you were not aware of what the
character of his business was in Houston, if he had any?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You just assumed he had business in Houston?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't know?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know.
(Off-the-record discussion follows.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous
walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the
United States to Panama.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make such a trip?
Mrs. VOSHININ. He says he did--and he brought some films and some photo
pictures--photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there
was that volcano eruption, you know--so I assume that he did make the
trip.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any cards from them as they wended their
way down?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we were not on speaking terms with them.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, this is the period when you were not friendly?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. JENNER. And afterward, when they got back----
Mrs. VOSHININ. We met them at Ballens.
Mr. JENNER. And some of the friendship was restored?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did see moving pictures of----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; of their jungle life.
Mr. JENNER. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there
pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she--because
one of them was taking pictures.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. But you saw representations in the movie film of
him----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and
you saw also her----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. In the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your
attention to a particular incident, did it?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; it did not. It only--you know what I was actually
wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures
could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then,
when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know.
Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that
distance.
Mr. JENNER. The volcano eruption--did that sequence of frames in the
movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was
a very beautiful picture.
Mr. JENNER. And did the movie film also show him in that area?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; Uh-uh.
Mr. JENNER. Did they say where the volcano was?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I am not sure they said where it was.
Mr. JENNER. Yucatan?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't think it was Yucatan. No.
Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Somewhere near Parikutin, I believe. Somewhere there.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.
Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n--because this is one of the
recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico--Parikutin.
Mr. JENNER. All right. When was this event--the walking trip from the
border to Panama?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know. Chronologically, you mean, when was this?
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the time, first, the year--as you best recall
now.
Mrs. VOSHININ. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that
Khrushchev came to this country, right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I believe so.
Mrs. VOSHININ. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And
we restored it after the trip.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had
visited this country?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They
returned probably in 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated
invasion of Cuba?
Mrs. VOSHININ. You mean, that President Kennedy is----
Mr. DAVIS. Bay of Pigs.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; the Bay of Pigs.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I do remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that
event--at the same time, a little bit before, a little after?
Mrs. VOSHININ. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on
dates--and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was
that?
Mr. JENNER. Now, you've put me in a bad spot.
Mr. DAVIS. Well, it was in--shortly after 1960. It would be about March
of 1960.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.
Mr. JENNER. The President was elected in November 1960.
Mr. DAVIS. It was very shortly after that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the
President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December,
December of 1960, or January of 1961.
Mr. DAVIS. I think it was probably about that time--or in February.
Mr. JENNER. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During
the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been
inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961.
Mr. DAVIS. The 20th is inauguration.
Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of January?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes. I think it was in late February or early March.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's reasonably accurate.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't
know really. Really, I'm afraid to say.
Mr. JENNER. They might have been in Haiti?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on
the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their
breath--to rest a little.
Mr. JENNER. On the way back from the Mexican walking trip?
Mrs. VOSHININ. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through
Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a
month--and then came back.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the
impression that they had visited Cuba?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No. No. But something--I think he did not visit Cuba. I
believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like
that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he
said.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when he visited Ghana?
Mrs. VOSHININ. There was; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, tell us about that.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I
don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia.
I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am
pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper--Ghana
newspaper--and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read
the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known
philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"--which caught my eye. So, I
thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.]
Mr. DAVIS. Was he a stamp collector?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. DAVIS. And this article said he was?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced
through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all.
And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana--so I'm pretty
sure he was there.
Mr. JENNER. You saw some photographs from Ghana?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Ghana.
Mr. JENNER. And you saw this newspaper?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and I saw the newspaper--and I believe this
newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti--right.
And the English one was from Ghana; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was a Ghana newspaper published in English?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; in English language--written in English language.
And that's what it said there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to him about that?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he
went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look
for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you
know--that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you
are geologists looking for oil, you know.
But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of
George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some
services for the State Department, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Of the United States?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Of the United States; yes. And under those
circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you
know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted--made certain
hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For
example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with
the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came
back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on
few other foreign trips, he also said that--sort of, you know, hinted
that that was what.
Mr. JENNER. What foreign trip?
Mrs. VOSHININ. He was traveling to Europe several times, I forget which.
Mr. JENNER. Yugoslavia, Ghana?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, let me have--I have it on piece of paper.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you have?
Mrs. VOSHININ. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior
to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was
before--long before Castro. Right?
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drilling some well--made some very good oil
discovery in Cuba.
Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime.
Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it
says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And
he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those
three countries.
Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize any of them?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries.
And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived
formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a
look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first
wife and child. I believe she is--I believe Alex was at that time in
France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that
some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his.
Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said
to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then--I'm not sure whether he
was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there.
Then, he went to Haiti several times.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether
he actually made them or not, you don't know----
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that he told you that?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would
tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite
certain, I think, because of this newspaper--so, that's why. And, then,
we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the
airplane, I mean, but----[Laughter.]
And then I noticed he visited--he mentioned that he visited--I don't
know--he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic
sometime in between.
Mr. JENNER. Sometime in between what?
Mrs. VOSHININ. In between his walking trip and 1955.
Mr. JENNER. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had
visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them--but I'm not
sure.
Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of his absences from Dallas?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; definitely.
Mr. JENNER. And the general conversation in the community in which you
moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be
making?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his
experiences in these various places and countries?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what
his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell,
yes; about--he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from
Europe, from Ghana, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture
postcards or things he had purchased?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; there were taken photographs.
Mr. JENNER. Ones that he took?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't
remember--from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card
from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you got cards from Haiti----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Before this last Haiti trip?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so; yes; I don't remember very well; yes.
You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did
not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they
moved to Haiti we did.
Mr. JENNER. You did get cards?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present
sojourn of his?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; quite.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he
said, what she said, and then his departure.
Mrs. VOSHININ. A few months before their departure, he told us that he
is working on getting a job with Haiti and that--I understood--that
foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with
the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti
Government.
And he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a
lot.
Mr. JENNER. Back and forth to Haiti?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he
won't even mention where he goes, just when--or sometimes on business
trips.
Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought
from Haiti a newspaper in which--French newspaper--in French--and it
stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co.
I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement
from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It
wasn't a statement. It was a letter from the bank saying that $20,000
was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it
was by Haitian Government. That's what it was--as far as I remember.
Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money
in sisal plantation--[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you use sisal to make rope.
Mrs. VOSHININ. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage
sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time.
He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that."
And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's
possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer
time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa
Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very
much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle
down, also.
Mr. JENNER. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South
America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, I think so. And she said she was very ill on that
trip.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. In these movies, how were they dressed?
Mrs. VOSHININ. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she
was wearing very torn dress--which looked like that Tarzan lady on the
films, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything
on [laughing], with very little dress on.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because
they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Robbed, you mean.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; robbed.
Mrs. VOSHININ. No, I thought it was more practical--because the
branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing
you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a
mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers
as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were
attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were
shooting.
But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they
were taken in the cities for paupers--they were mistaken for paupers,
and people would lend them money.
Mr. JENNER. Give them pesos?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes [laughing].
Mr. JENNER. All of which, I am sure, Mr. De Mohrenschildt enjoyed
thoroughly?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Tremendously [laughing].
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us
about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the
impressions that you gained of the Oswalds--as to how they got along
whether he treated her well or poorly?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oswalds--his wife?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told
us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De
Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to
separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the
reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes--was
beaten again, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Black and blue eyes?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them
returning to Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Either of whom?
Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Returning to Russia? No; I don't remember. No; I don't
think so.
Mr. JENNER. No mention of the fact--if it was a fact--that Oswald
wanted Marina to return to Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Or, that they both desired to return to Russia?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Just nothing at all concerning----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Nothing at all concerning that.
Mr. JENNER. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect
to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and
the reaction of Oswald to that?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George
thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee
prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I
remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book
that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was
very angry.
Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed
against Oswald, you know. Because the why--you know, the reason that he
gave. Why would he want that?
Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange
about Oswald--my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the
communication of Marina--even with Russian people. Because he was so
unpleasant to Russians--to those folks around who tried to help her,
you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant--and, for some reason, we
got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate
with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I
asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became
acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in
which you moved is concerned?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De
Mohrenschildts--and however you may have liked or disliked them in
their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with
everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this
would be especially true, for example, of Marina--that you'd like to
bring her into the circle?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say because we are not very close with
that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know--St. Nicholas Parish circle.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I really am not thinking about that particular parish.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering
you--that the normal thing that you expected--would expect of these
people----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yeah. I understand you now. Yeah. Quite.
Mr. JENNER. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those
with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or
otherwise to acquire facility with the English language----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's
the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country--you know,
just do it as soon as possible. Right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And what did you understand with respect to her
education?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not
have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe
that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that
wouldn't be college in Russia. It might be something----
Mr. JENNER. No. It would be something like junior college here?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Juniors or something like that. It would give her
technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your
friends and the people here, her general level of erudition and
education and intelligence in comparison with his?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No. Now, of course, what I'm saying is hearsay, right?
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that.
Mrs. VOSHININ. But several people said differently. For example, I
heard from the ladies--from the Russian ladies of our parish that
she was--you could see that she comes from an intelligent family,
from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and
everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was
sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who
are more developed----
Mr. JENNER. And more educated?
Mrs. VOSHININ. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just
the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers,
for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a
little bit.
So, I really don't know what to think.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last you heard from the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That was Christmas. We received a card from them.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; it was in 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to
that time--that is, while they were still in Haiti?
Mrs. VOSHININ. With the De Mohrenschildts before Christmas 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she wrote me two letters; I wrote her one letter.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any contact with the children--either of Mrs.
De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt--recently?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we were visited by her daughter--by Chris--twice.
Once it was before Christmas and----
Mr. JENNER. But after November 22?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I
believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just--they left
on March 15. They left Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything during the course of this social
visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts--George and Jeanne or
Jean or Eugene?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much,
I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they
exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believe
that----
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things.
I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that
they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Angry in what sense?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--they said that they were not very hospitable for one
thing and, for another things, they--well, they said that George and
Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically.
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, would you develop that, please?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I hate to do that, because I just don't know how true it
all is.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they
said. It is pure hearsay. I understand.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Pure hearsay of angry children.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what it is. Right?
Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and
George was because they were shooting their mouths off there--pro-left
and against United States--something to that effect; Chris said that
George was making the most--the funniest accusations--statements in
public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. VOSHININ. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the
President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure--and
this was, of course, awfully shocking to children.
Mr. JENNER. He believed that the rightwing or the FBI what?
Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the children said.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Murdered the President. That's what the children said
and I, frankly don't----
Mr. JENNER. You don't put much stock in it?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these
were rantings or nonsense or----
Mrs. VOSHININ. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like
everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so
bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what
he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or
Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them
by standard measures at all--what they say or what they do even. They
require different measures.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we
necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these
personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they
did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings
and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs.
Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run
them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving
them consideration----
Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that.
Mr. JENNER. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay
and rumor----
Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that.
Mr. JENNER. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you
would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't
necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some
judgment.
Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I
would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit.
Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be
helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source
leading us to something that might be helpful--that you would like to
suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I
haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all
that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of
the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I can't think of anything. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think of anything?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No. I can't think of anything--people that might be
useful.
Mr. JENNER. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all
this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful?
It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might
be an incident that occurred.
Mrs. VOSHININ. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors
that--like everybody else heard--which you have heard definitely--but I
don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the
trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light
on that thing.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record
and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there
anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record
discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to
your testimony, which I failed to bring out?
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that took place in those discussions
that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your
testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't quite understand that question.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the
discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room
that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out
that ought to be on the record?
Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well what was off the record and
what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You think I have brought out everything?
Mrs. VOSHININ. Everything; yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also
say the right--I must say the right--to read over your deposition when
it has been transcribed by the reporter--which we hope will be next
week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission
will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband
call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll
know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read
it.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to
you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something,
and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your
deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you
and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her
regular rates are.
Mrs. VOSHININ. All right.
Mr. JENNER. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say,
expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box
[laughter].
Mrs. VOSHININ. A historical document!
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I
was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely.
Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not at all.
Mr. DAVIS. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back
very wonderful memories for me.
Mrs. VOSHININ. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ
The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please?
Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. VOSHININ. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is Igor Vladimir Voshinin?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to
investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire
of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons
you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some
contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that
would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy.
Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of
the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No.
11130, creating a Commission?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the
United States authorizing the Commission?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to
proceed to take your deposition.
You reside where?
Mr. VOSHININ. 3504 Mockingbird Lane in Highland Park, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And is Highland Park a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right; but it is an independent community.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; how long have you resided in Highland Park, Tex.?
Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to that time where did you reside?
Mr. VOSHININ. In University Park.
Mr. JENNER. Also a suburb----
Mr. VOSHININ. An independent community and suburb.
Mr. JENNER. And for how long did you reside there?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, since 1957, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. Now, it may be late in 1956.
Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation or profession?
Mr. VOSHININ. I am a professional engineer.
Mr. JENNER. And by whom are you employed, or are you an independent
engineer?
Mr. VOSHININ. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting
engineers.
Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that name, please?
Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] M-u-l-l-e-n & P-o-w-e-l-l.
Mr. JENNER. What area of engineering do you direct your attention?
Mr. VOSHININ. In structural engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. VOSHININ. I am.
Mr. JENNER. By naturalization or birth?
Mr. VOSHININ. By naturalization.
Mr. JENNER. And when were you naturalized?
Mr. VOSHININ. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be
1954--I'm sorry to delay you.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it
worry you a bit.
(The witness hands card to Mr. Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. [Reading] March 7, 1955?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. In the light of that, Mr. Voshinin, in what country were
you born?
Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia before the Revolution.
Mr. JENNER. And how old a man are you?
Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in 1906--so, therefore, I am 58 years old.
Mr. JENNER. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And
did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from
Russia?
Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and
approximately when.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the
hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we
were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?
Mr. VOSHININ. That was in 1920--early in 1920.
Mr. JENNER. You were then 14 years old, approximately?
Mr. VOSHININ. Thirteen--yeah.
Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and
my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now
Istanbul in Turkey.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. VOSHININ. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where
we lived up to this last war.
Mr. JENNER. 1940----
Mr. VOSHININ. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany,
and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to
Yugoslavia. And after--by the end of the war when the Communists were
close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to
Kempten----
Mr. JENNER. To what?
Mr. VOSHININ. To Kempten in south Bavaria--[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en--and
that's where we met the American Army.
Mr. JENNER. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance
reached the Bavarian area and freed you?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April
and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in
Germany before the American Army.
Mr. JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your wife's name?
Mr. VOSHININ. Natalie.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you marry her?
Mr. VOSHININ. Belgrade, Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. VOSHININ. It was in 1940.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; I have no children. I have only my father here.
Mr. JENNER. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--it was November 12, 1947.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife accompanied you at that time?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you settled where in this country?
Mr. VOSHININ. We settled first in New York.
Mr. JENNER. City?
Mr. VOSHININ. New York City, for some time, then we mostly lived in New
Jersey.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a higher education--that is, an education
beyond high school equivalent?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what that was, please, and where?
Mr. VOSHININ. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from
the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil
engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City,
or its environs?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right--in Brooklyn.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued your profession in civil
engineering----
Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1931, up to now--except for the time of war.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the dates again when you were in
Yugoslavia?
Mr. VOSHININ. From the middle of 1920 to 1942.
Mr. JENNER. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to
Germany and you escaped then to Austria?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. That was an escape, wasn't it?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they
dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know--and somehow I managed, with
other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people
who got out.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you stay in Austria, then, throughout the war?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; almost out through the war.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Austria was occupied by the Germans also, was it not?
Mr. VOSHININ. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of
course, you had to go to the labor office--because otherwise I would be
arrested immediately.
Mr. DAVIS. When you'd go there, they'd let you stay in Austria?
Mr. VOSHININ. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor
force--whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not
disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I--when I
got out of the train with two other fellows--and, of course, it has
cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You had to do a little bribery?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, to three persons there--including the guard which
was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had
seen about a hundred people who did the same thing--so, it probably was
going--big business there.
Mr. DAVIS. When did you come to Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. 1955--about the first of September.
Mr. JENNER. You were naturalized in New York City?
Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; in New Brunswick, N.J.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, New Brunswick, N.J.?
Mr. VOSHININ. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in
New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you
know.
Mr. JENNER. You're asthmatic?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I'm asthmatic--and, therefore, I have to choose my
climate.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin--was she likewise born in Russia?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her
parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old.
Mr. JENNER. She probably wouldn't remember then.
Mr. VOSHININ. She doesn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you
had any advance acquaintance with anybody here?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I knew two persons whom I met through the church.
Mr. JENNER. And what church is that?
Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--the church in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it and what is its denomination?
Mr. VOSHININ. Greek Orthodox Church.
Mr. JENNER. Greek Orthodox Church?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's
St. Vladimir--but I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. St. Vladimir?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so--but I'm not quite sure that was the
name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houston first----
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they
gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky--Paul Raigorodsky.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name, please.
Mr. VOSHININ. R-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y.
Mr. JENNER. Is he of Russian descent--or Yugoslavian or what?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; Russian.
Mr. JENNER. He had preceded you to this country?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long?
Mr. VOSHININ. He was the first Russian immigrant who settled here in
Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. And he is a millionaire--a very rich man.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there,
the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you
go to Dallas--we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston
and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there.
So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there,
but we don't know anybody."
So, he said, "Well, why don't you--we have two men who are able to help
you--and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe--George Bouhe." The
Russians are referring--joking about Raigorodsky--they call him, "the
Czar," here.
Mr. JENNER. Yeah.
Mr. VOSHININ. So--he's an old man--and so when we came, then the
next day--it was during our vacation in 1955--and so we went to see
Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there
is a church of our denomination here on McKinney and a few other just
useful things--nothing in particular.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted--when you came to
Dallas, you didn't know anybody?
Mr. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. JENNER. You then became acquainted with Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. VOSHININ. Bouhe--and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of
liked--and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked.
Mr. DAVIS. Was there any special reason for that other than just----
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to
mix in their affairs----
Mr. JENNER. Their personal affairs?
Mr. VOSHININ. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't
need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't
like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like--didn't
like his approach too well.
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a
little aggressive in your personal affairs?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor,
you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire with respect to that--your aversion, at
least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not
that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal
affairs--particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and
what not to do?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Well, everybody complaining the same way.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Although I don't mind him helping people.
Mr. JENNER. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has
it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain?
Mr. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. JENNER. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on
government--communism--conservatism--whatever it might be?
Mr. VOSHININ. No. But my impression is that he is rather
conservative--in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about
the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot
somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. In Russia?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him, however, as a loyal American?
Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--well, I don't know. We never talked about any
American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any
proof otherwise.
Mr. JENNER. You don't suspect him, however, of any Communist
affiliation?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well--uh--one is accustomed to suspect everybody.
Mr. JENNER. Well, no more than that?
Mr. VOSHININ. But--uh--no more than that, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas
broadened, did it not, as time went on?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was
largely among that segment of the community or society here of people
from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and Lebanon.
Mr. JENNER. Lebanon, also?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, those people who come to church.
Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance, initially, was among church folks----
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Who attended your church?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney
Avenue--because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's
the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people
went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English
language.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the parish?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, there were two parishes there.
Mr. JENNER. Yeah.
Mr. VOSHININ. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One
was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim
Parish.
The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the
services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held
their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas
Parish--who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor
coming from Houston.
Mr. JENNER. And that was Father----
Mr. VOSHININ. Father Alexander.
Mr. JENNER. And the Father of the other parish is Dimitri?
Mr. VOSHININ. Father Dimitri Royster.
Mr. JENNER. Royster?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. And the St. Nicholas Parish secretary-treasurer is Mr.
Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's the motivating force, is he?
Mr. VOSHININ. He's the motivating force there--and everything
[laughter].
Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I
became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and--uh--I
didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more.
Mr. JENNER. Is that largely because of the aggressiveness of Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. VOSHININ. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting
once in 5 weeks--and many other things--and because I believe that
the church in this country should be in the language of the country.
I think it's natural--it's what it should be in order that our
denomination can exist at all--because in two, three generations, the
people lose their national language, and then there is no church.
Besides that, uh--I--what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't
think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in
thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national
backgrounds and is--it's absolutely senseless in serving the service
in some other language than the language in which everybody can
understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church--of
which we have remained members up to now.
Mr. JENNER. Were these two parishes and the church itself--that is,
the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes--is that the
medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say--from
Russia, from Yugoslavia, from----
Mr. VOSHININ. Lebanon; yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Became acquainted?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. Everybody knows everybody.
Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew everybody?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth
through this group?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in
the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social
intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that is true.
Mr. JENNER. And you people generally became acquainted, one with
the other, in not only your church activity but your general social
activity as well?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity,
because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and
my wife met them too, so--but partially, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to
or not you sort of kept track of everybody?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was
doing or would like to?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and
still keeps files on everybody--when anybody was born, baptized, or
whatever happened to everybody.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came
here, I immediately opened a file on you."
I say, "What for?"
And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things--so I keep a file on
everybody."
Then, later, the parishes separated, as you know.
Mr. JENNER. The parishes separated. Yes. I've heard that.
Mr. VOSHININ. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became
unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out.
Mr. JENNER. Of that building?
Mr. VOSHININ. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on
Newton and Throckmorton, as you know.
And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only
used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that
house and it was torn away--torn down. And now there is a Gulf station
on McKinney.
Mr. JENNER. A Gulf gasoline station?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at
the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic).
Mr. JENNER. Hold it. Can you spell that?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian
name. These are Georgian people.
Mr. JENNER. By "Georgian," you mean----
Mr. VOSHININ. From Georgia.
Mr. JENNER. From the Georgia part of Russia?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. It's the [spelling] T-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something
like that.
Mr. JENNER. That's good enough.
Mr. VOSHININ. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that
in Tsinzadze's house--because my father, I think, goes to confession
there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his
confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor
coming there--but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is
now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from
Galveston--from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church--who comes there
once in 5 weeks or so and they have services.
So, perhaps once in the year we go there--or twice.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you
describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the
community as a group.
Mr. VOSHININ. St. Nicholas?
Mr. JENNER. No; the whole--this Russian----
Mr. VOSHININ. They are not only Russians there. Of course,
Russians--you said Russians--Yugoslav, Lebanese--but in addition to
that, there are those people--Estonians and Latvians. You see, there
are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you
see, there is a national differentiation now--yeah--in addition, I
can take another nationality. These are people--west Ukrainians and
Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and
Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia.
So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish--we call that
"Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we
usually call Bouhe's parish.
Mr. DAVIS. He's still the secretary of that parish?
Mr. VOSHININ. He's still the secretary of that parish--yeah.
These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians.
There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians
and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim
Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are
Russians there, there are Yugoslavs--it's true that Bouhe's group has
some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church--not very often at
least--very rare; but they come to us, too--so I don't think they are
members any place--those to which I'm talking about.
But in our church there are a lot of--well, not too many Russians
there--not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but
we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we
have some Serbians--people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek
people even; we have all the Arabic people here--you know, Lebanese and
other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American
people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members.
Mr. JENNER. Who became interested in the Greek Orthodox Church?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.
Mr. VOSHININ. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through
study of church history, became Orthodox.
Mr. JENNER. Is this group--and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's
following as well as the group in which you move--are they, by and
large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country
or in Europe, or Asia?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with
higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of
people with higher education. We have doctors and engineers and----
Mr. JENNER. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of
others in the group--in the general sense of the word?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did there move into this community or come into this
community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some
people by the name--or a man by the name--whose last name was De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes--except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in
God.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, he is an atheist--but he did arrive on the scene or he
was on the scene----
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived
here.
Mr. JENNER. He was here?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was here.
Mr. JENNER. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De
Mohrenschildt already here?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was he active among these people--even though, as you
say, he's an atheist?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was singing in the church choir.
Mr. JENNER. He was singing in the church choir even though----
Mr. VOSHININ. At St. Nicholas.
Mr. JENNER. Even though he was an atheist?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's rather unusual. How did that strike you?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in
that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to
church.
Mr. JENNER. Even though he didn't believe in church?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he said he doesn't believe in it but----
Mr. JENNER. And was De Mohrenschildt married at that time?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. VOSHININ. To the Sharples girl.
Mr. JENNER. What are they--Quakers?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't
know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor--his wife.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know of De Mohrenschildt's background?
Mr. VOSHININ. Only what he told me, of course.
Mr. JENNER. And what was said by others in this community of people?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; something what was said by others.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by
reputation among the people you have described.
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Well, De Mohrenschildt comes from a Swedish family.
Mr. JENNER. You mean, by reputation, he was born in Sweden?
Mr. VOSHININ. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This
is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born
in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents--and that he was a rich man
and----
Mr. JENNER. His father was a rich man?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some
other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil
town in Russia.
So, probably a very substantially rich man.
As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested--I don't
know by whom--and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he,
as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and
hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to
get out of prison, and they moved to Poland.
He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then
went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school
and became a Polish cavalry officer--and he was proudly showing his
picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So--but,
somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to
school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us--I never saw
his diploma--but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics.
Mr. JENNER. From a school in Belgium?
Mr. VOSHININ. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I--you know, I don't
like to question people too much.
Mr. JENNER. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is
at large in the community we talked about.
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So--but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would
think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember,
of course, better but--somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me
from which school it was, but I don't remember.
After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and
saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again--and
he went to school in Austin.
Mr. JENNER. Austin, Tex.?
Mr. VOSHININ. Austin, Tex.--and in Colorado. Now, whether it was
Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know.
But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned
his master's degree.
After that, he went to work in some southern American country or--I
think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country--I think it
was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else.
And--uh--then I think he returned here again during the war.
Mr. JENNER. That's the Second World War?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; during the Second World War, and----
Mr. JENNER. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the
Dallas area or to the United States?
Mr. VOSHININ. To the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the
war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections
with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some
interest--because he was receiving some money from that company even
after he divorced his wife--until it finally stopped. But he was--I
remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received
from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am
not a consultant any more."
He was some kind of consultant for that company--I don't know what of,
the company's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he
had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much
money, but helping him.
And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time,
you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and
made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he
was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money--real
big money.
Mr. JENNER. This is by reputation?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil
somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was
Cuba. But that must be in 1953--something like that--because I know
he was always running around talking about income tax on that money
because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present
certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which
year you receive that and so on.
So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about
that sort of thing.
Mr. JENNER. This is what he said anyway?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with
him--so I don't know.
So, shortly after that, after we came here--you see, how we met him,
my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University;
and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were
looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which
also would give her the possibility to work in her profession--and not
be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job--which was
very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist--though
we have a dozen of them here. But--so Bouhe gave us--he said, "There
is a Russian geologist"--so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De
Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good--beautiful office in First
National Bank. So----
Mr. JENNER. And that's how you met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's how we met De Mohrenschildt.
So, my wife worked there for about----
Mr. JENNER. She worked in his office?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, for half a day--part-time.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have
anything but you can--I want to bring my files in order, you know, and
you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start
with--and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking
for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I
have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and
all your work."
So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day--she worked
half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife
only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she
moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he
retired--which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my
wife worked for Henry Rogatz.
And De Mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his
office.
Mr. JENNER. What year was this?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he divorced his wife--that was 1956, I would
say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that
winter--1955 or 1956--and finally he divorced her and after--sometimes
after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly
he closed his office but that must be around 1956.
And then he--after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is
no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard
for him because he has, you know--he had some kind of accident, as I
understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and
he has difficulties to concentrate--and, therefore, he has to have an
office where he can--you know, some job which he can walk a little,
consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's
what he explained to me.
Mr. JENNER. Not follow a regimen--be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come
back at 2----
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that--just
physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work--to look for
foreign assignments; he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid
Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind
of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are
some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can--if
you find the right man you will get a job.
So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and
finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much
because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other
way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there
for about a year. So, that was----
Mr. JENNER. Was he married then?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; he was not married at that time.
Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French
woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel----
Mr. JENNER. He met her.
Mr. VOSHININ. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh
Hotel--because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce
and she was living there----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce--and she
was also living there?
Mr. VOSHININ. She was also living there--yes.
She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to
different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to
New York to sell--her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los
Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her
fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was--so, she
was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in
love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say
a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying
she was a French woman.
Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about
his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't
understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she
came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question
her about that--because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"--he
says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all.
And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from
China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't
know--and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know.
Mr. JENNER. Is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in
China?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her
father's name was Fomenko, she said--[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o--who was
an engineer on the East Chinese Railroad----
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Can you describe De Mohrenschildt's personality?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, do you want the further travelings as far as I know?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.
Mr. VOSHININ. So, after--well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of
that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there.
Mr. JENNER. His present wife?
Mr. VOSHININ. His present wife.
Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, his present wife was not his wife?
Mr. VOSHININ. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. They were very much in love, you know--and her husband
who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George
De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"--and there was
some kind of--we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very
cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that
he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment.
And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who
was running constantly De Mohrenschildt--and all kinds of things like
that.
Mr. JENNER. A lot of cloak and dagger?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they
divorced--she divorced her husband--and, you know, he is now in an
insane--had some kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now
in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what.
Mr. JENNER. In California?
Mr. VOSHININ. In California; yes. Bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not
Le Gon.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had
somebody try it yesterday. Would you----
Mr. VOSHININ. If you give me a pencil, I may try it.
(After writing name, as set out above, hands paper to Mr. Jenner.)
I think that's it.
Mr. JENNER. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an
accurate spelling.
Mr. VOSHININ. Her daughter still keeps this name.
Mr. JENNER. What is her daughter's first name--the one you now have in
mind?
Mr. VOSHININ. Christina.
Mr. JENNER. Christina. And she also had a child--Alexandra?
Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of
Alexandra?
Mr. VOSHININ. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know
their names.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My
wife probably knows them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl--and her
husband, too. They are quite different from the parents.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. VOSHININ. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an
assignment in Ghana--which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a
pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us
a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short
article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal
stamps--Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a
representative of a Swedish company."
Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those
jerks--they don't know anything."
Mr. JENNER. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect
that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a
Swedish company?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in
there--but it said, "As a representative,"--and he said that it would
be this Swedish company.
Mr. JENNER. He said that it was a Swedish company?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company,
you know.
Mr. JENNER. But it did mention De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and
specialist in stamps"--and so on.
And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps?
Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?"
"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they
don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also
provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has
trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in
Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what
parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil
leases and assign--and sign some kind of contract with them--with the
Government of Ghana--in their name, and came back to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And then he returned to Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has
interests in Nigeria--and he says, "you know, I am Swedish--so they
rely on me."
The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are
many geologists in Sweden itself--but perhaps they don't have oil
specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and the other members of the community think that
he was exaggerating or this was all fictional?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that.
Mr. JENNER. When the Ghana newspaper said that?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print
that newspaper--I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates
a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of
whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk
much more than he actually is.
Mr. JENNER. At least, he tended to exaggerate?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you
know.
Mr. JENNER. Everybody with whom he was associated?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, are--or to whom he met--that he was a, you know,
big businessman, big oil man, and so on--big specialist. And he wrote
an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia,
his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State
Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually
in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he--and it was said, you
know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about
himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that
Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a
consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there
was--all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of
course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to
Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after--when he came back from
Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on
the state of affairs in Yugoslavia--"And I gave quite a lecture there
to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and
listened to me." You know, that kind of talk.
So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and
a second time in Yugoslavia--but I didn't hear it from him. I just
heard that as a rumor.
And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden,
after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And,
you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends
and relatives--so he said he stayed there for a week, and----
Mr. JENNER. When was this? When did this take place?
Mr. VOSHININ. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957,
1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to
Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has
cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get
even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit
Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that.
And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said
that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was
much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And,
besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course,
one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time of that, please?
Mr. VOSHININ. That was 1960, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the
preparations for the Cuban invasion?
Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean
our Cuban invasion?
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion--but there
was an invasion of Cuba.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I take that from the record.
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time?
Mr. VOSHININ. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it
was in 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on
speaking terms at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Had there come about a break in friendship with De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; but that was about the time when they left on their
trip.
Mr. JENNER. They were supposed to do what?
Mr. VOSHININ. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a
city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by
them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border,
you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American
married with a Mexican girl--a very rich man living near Eagle Pass.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his name?
Mr. VOSHININ. Tito Harper, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Harper? Tito Harper?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never
met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people,
big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on
both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George.
And, from there, he went to Torreon--I don't know why Torreon--and
I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old
Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by
foot--having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their
belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the
dog--I mean, the dog rode the mule--and that way they traveled, you
know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year.
In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because
it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main
highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the
hills.
And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for
example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the
top--which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the
lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he
made the movie--it's real exciting--a colored movie and that red lava
flowing--you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course,
they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it.
And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City
they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend--also a very
rich man there of Russian background on Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his name?
Mr. VOSHININ. He's dead now.
Mr. JENNER. He's dead? Did he mention his name?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, he was--I'm bad on names. His first name was
Michel--which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is,
I don't know--Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local
businessman on Haiti, and he died since.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to
church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only
time she was in the church--because she's more antireligious than he is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "she," you mean Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt--yes. Because he's not religious,
not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. But she----
Mr. JENNER. He's not antagonistic to religion but she is?
Mr. VOSHININ. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came--and she cried
in the church.
Mr. JENNER. Now, which church is this? Here in Dallas or in Haiti?
Mr. VOSHININ. Here.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. VOSHININ. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died
after--pretty soon, and they came to the church--which puzzled our
pastor very much, Father Royster--and they asked for a church service.
Mr. JENNER. They asked to have a mass said for the deceased Mr.
Brightman?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he
would like to look for another assignment.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back,
or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home
there of some people, I think, from Arizona--Hilton or Tilton?
Mr. VOSHININ. No--not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala
while the Cuban refugees were being trained?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; I didn't hear about that.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't? All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. You see, they didn't write us from their trip.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr.
and Mrs. Ballen.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] B-a-l-l-e-n--Sam Ballen?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Sam Ballen is a friend of theirs?
Mr. VOSHININ. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was
a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to
know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every
day in Rogatz' office.
Mr. JENNER. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is
that correct?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration
of George--which I can't share too well. I think George is a very
interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him--taking, of course, 30
or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always
interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels,
always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a
certain talent of observation.
You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has
it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a
few pages from that book.
Mr. DAVIS. Is that George Bouhe?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually
dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course.
Mr. JENNER. And he left Dallas for the Haiti assignment when?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, somewhere in the spring last year.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you
anything?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he showed us a newspaper again.
Mr. JENNER. What newspaper?
Mr. VOSHININ. From Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And to what effect was the article in the paper?
Mr. VOSHININ. It was more than a page.
Mr. JENNER. More than a page?
Mr. VOSHININ. It may--it was more than a page and it was the official
newspaper of the Government of Haiti--which was a contract between the
Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.--not George
De Mohrenschildt himself--to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the
sum of--I don't remember exactly--about $300,000; in which it said that
Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a
magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals--oil and other
minerals.
Mr. JENNER. In Haiti?
Mr. VOSHININ. For the country of Haiti--and I think the contract is for
2 years.
I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody--Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt--in which it was said that a contract was signed between
our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt
is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with
his wonderful wife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more
words written about how wonderful she was--so she told--showed it to
everybody. Well, that's only human--"They say I'm a wonderful woman!"
Mr. JENNER. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De
Mohrenschildts?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. While they were here in Dallas before they left for Haiti?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It
was on a short trip to sign the contract.
Mr. JENNER. They took at least one or more short trips to Haiti----
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Until they had these contracts signed?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then they left permanently for 2 years?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. And that was in the spring of 1963, that they left?
Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you
saw the newspaper account----
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Printed in the Haiti paper?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--in French.
Mr. JENNER. In French?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.
Mr. JENNER. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've
been talking about, saw?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well--after they left, that's it.
Mr. JENNER. That's it. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card
from them and the Christmas greeting--that was all.
Mr. JENNER. That's about all?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's about all.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United
States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by
them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their
meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, this was before that trip.
Mr. JENNER. It was? Tell us about that, please.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot--they
made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip.
Mr. JENNER. That was by more conventional means of transportation?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't
know. I think they mostly traveled by car.
I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and
then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas.
And we heard--I don't know from whom we heard--that they met Mikoyan. I
imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think--I imagine so. But then
I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't like the fact that they had met Mikoyan?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan--being a top Communist--Mr.
Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So,
whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with
Mikoyan?
Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about?
And she told me that it was just meant as a joke--namely that at that
time there was a Soviet exhibition of some kind----
Mr. JENNER. In Mexico City.
Mr. VOSHININ. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present
there. And one day--and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by
Mexican security and Soviet security--and it was one moment he was
televised--you know, when he was televised--she just jumped out of the
crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr.
Mikoyan. What are you doing?"
And she said, "He was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps I'll kill
him."
But, so, he said, "Who are you?"
And she said, "I'm a Russian living in America."
And he asked, "What you want?"
And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave--and
she left.
So, she says that's all that it was--she said.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the
thing is about.
Mr. JENNER. You wanted to know?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wanted to know from her--because if she would go,
you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk
with her at all.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. But a joke--well De Mohrenschildt and his wife--they are
peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does.
Mr. JENNER. Were they unconventional people?
Mr. VOSHININ. They are the most unconventional people I ever have seen.
Mr. JENNER. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and
things they do?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers,
a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know,
trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And
he goes out very often without a tie or open breast--completely open
breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state--and without
shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see
him perfectly dressed.
Mr. JENNER. He's unpredictable?
Mr. VOSHININ. He is absolutely unpredictable--and I think even he knows
he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to
whom he went. My wife told me about that.
Mr. JENNER. From all this, do you have an impression of the De
Mohrenschildts--either one of them--as to their possible connection
with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think
they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you
think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality?
Mr. VOSHININ. It may be; it may not be. I'm not--you know, now all of
us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the
other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times.
Mr. JENNER. You're rationalizing at the moment?
Mr. VOSHININ. We are rationalizing--all of us--at that moment. Of
course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other.
I can tell you what she told us.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. She told us that her first husband was a former Communist.
Mr. JENNER. Her first husband was the----
Mr. VOSHININ. Bogoiavlensky.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Who is now in a mental institution in California?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that he was a Communist?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; in his young days.
Mr. JENNER. Well, when you say "Communist"--an active member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. VOSHININ. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it
was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. But of some kind--I don't know what the official name
of the organization may be--but it was some kind of Communist Youth
Organization.
So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and
they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of
whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said
that it's her influence was to break up--that he break up all his ties
with the Communists. And come to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. That was her desire?
Mr. VOSHININ. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what
her first husband did--that they broke off with the Communists and
come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my
husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party."
That's her story.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese
Communist regime--because she was saying that they do a lot of good
developing her beloved native country.
Mr. JENNER. China?
Mr. VOSHININ. China.
When she said--mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure
Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that."
On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should
not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda--because they shot my
father."
That's what she said.
But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for
China or not was, you know, coming back and back.
Mr. JENNER. Repeated?
Mr. VOSHININ. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife
and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them,
you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again
somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again.
Mr. JENNER. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife
and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject?
Mr. VOSHININ. On this subject.
But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that
they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like--she didn't like
that.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt didn't like that.
She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian
music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even
anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I
don't know what.
And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the
world government." She was very much for the world government, you
know, and things like that--international institutions and--uh; but,
on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the
wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"--she
would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor
father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad,
what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries,"
and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my
father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective."
Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with
women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will
probably tell you.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did you become acquainted at any time----
Mr. VOSHININ. May I say something in addition?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. Because that's what I said about her.
What his concern--I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian
Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there
and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful
things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I
tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before
and there was nothing just to save it from.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very
enthusiastic and--about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him
they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before--and
that Communists did not build them--but he would somehow always, was
always enthusiastic about that.
Mr. JENNER. About Yugoslavia?
Mr. VOSHININ. About Yugoslavia and the Yugoslavia regime.
Mr. JENNER. And its regime as well?
Mr. VOSHININ. Its regime as well. That's true.
About China, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk.
So, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts are leftists?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the
other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat.
Mr. JENNER. He had never voted for a Democrat?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican--and
they argued between themselves the whole time.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among
themselves--because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes
tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective.
Mr. JENNER. Induce her to be a little more objective?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she was always bitterly to the left.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; thank God!
Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when you heard about Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us the circumstances.
Mr. VOSHININ. I read in the newspaper, Dallas Herald, about them.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short
article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally
came back with a Russian wife.
Mr. JENNER. That was in June of 1962--just to orient you. You saw that
item in the newspaper?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the
people you've told us about?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard--we
visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. An attorney in Fort Worth?
Mr. VOSHININ. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you
know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet
Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant
and bitter fellow--and they wouldn't like to see him again--something
like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to
meet them either, you know--and especially, you know, you don't like
any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish"
people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum--as
he was described to us. He--Oswald.
So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other
prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as
our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just
very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we
really need something, you know, an address or some information of that
kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that--better than
bringing to us anybody.
But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and
the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and
young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has
a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on--they
don't have a penny and nobody gives them a job, and things like that.
And "would you like to meet them?"
Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from
Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet
him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind
of people."
So, I said that very insistently--so the De Mohrenschildts knew better
than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have
happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There
was always a possibility of that kind. But, thank God----
Mr. JENNER. But it never happened?
Mr. VOSHININ. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them
from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression, did you not--or did you--that the
De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to
assist them?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was--only one time he was very bitter about
Oswald when he beat up his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he
said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he
is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't
just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You
always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened."
I understand that she liked Lee much more than he did.
Mr. JENNER. That Mrs. De Mohrenschildt liked Lee much more than George
did?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
This fellow De Mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke
arguments?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; he liked that. Yes; sure.
Mr. JENNER. Describe him physically. Is he a handsome man? A big man?
Athletic?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis
player--always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know;
and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And
he devoted always a lot of time to sports----
Mr. JENNER. And was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt----
Mr. VOSHININ. And she tried to do it, too.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. What else can I tell you?
Well, I know that he--the way he talks, you know, he talks for and
against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the
Bohemian Club?
Mr. JENNER. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was
argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any
argument?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever
anybody would say.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and I think he enjoyed it.
Mr. JENNER. He was extreme in his argumentation?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was
some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he
made a lecture in the Bohemian Club.
The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people--Dallasites--who like
to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably
who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling],
Bill Hudson--I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a member of the Bohemian Club?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the
Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture.
Mr. JENNER. You were present on that occasion?
Mr. VOSHININ. I was present on that occasion.
And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army.
That was an army composed of Russian--Soviet Russian prisoners of war
who wanted to fight the Communists.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of this army?
Mr. VOSHININ. Vlassov [spelling] V-l-a-s-s-o-v.
And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected
a lot of praise for such people like Himmler.
Mr. JENNER. Heinrich Himmler?
Mr. VOSHININ. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the
conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all."
You know, that's typically George.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he
was just attempting to provoke shock?
Mr. VOSHININ. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially
there were, at least, three Jewish people there present--Sam Ballen and
Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't--was, became red,
terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know,
would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face
of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what
effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev
was terribly bitter--and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to
drink vodka the whole night. So, well--that's the type of person you
have.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is
about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any
event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought
out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in
its investigation?
Mr. VOSHININ. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state it, please?
Mr. VOSHININ. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did
not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better
than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is that?
Mr. VOSHININ. For example, Mr. Basil Zavoico.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now give us that full name and spell it, please?
Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l--that's the first name. Second is
Z-a-v-o-i-c-o--or k-o--I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and
he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please?
Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico
because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife
we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows
George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even
warned us against him.
Mr. JENNER. Warned you against De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt,"
he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks
so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is."
And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we
came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your
interest.
I don't know whether you questioned another person--it's Mr. Paul
Raigorodsky.
Mr. JENNER. You've mentioned him before--at the first of this
deposition?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian
immigrant that--whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely
everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the
Stoneleigh Hotel--and still living there.
Mr. JENNER. He is?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only
occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] G-r-a-f-f?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff--who worked for George as a
secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still
was, one part of the time, maintaining his office in the Republic
Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows
a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked
there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs.
Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them
and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had
written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has
seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to
sell.
Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie
who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie.
Mr. JENNER. Are they residents of Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now
living in Birmingham--you know, near Detroit.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter
attended school in Birmingham.
Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was
here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank--and
that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his
secretary--part-time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Where do Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie live?
Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie on Hanover.
Mr. JENNER. Hanover Street?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Hanover Street.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; they are Russian.
Mr. JENNER. They are?
Mr. VOSHININ. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent--but his
wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about
the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know,
and all that.
Mr. JENNER. They may know something about the Oswalds, too?
Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. I don't know one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. But they moved in this circle that you've described?
Mr. VOSHININ. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which
always strikes me peculiar--I just talked last night with my wife about
that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to
Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I
have to go to Houston on business." And he would say--of course, you
don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his
business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody,
of course, asked him.
And he would say, "You know, I have to go--you know, all my business
goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you
know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington--and here
he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or
5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife
heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business
there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in
foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even
before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once
talking this with my wife and wondering--what in the hell is he doing
in Houston?
You don't get foreign assignments through Houston--not that we know
about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never
mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can
give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know--may not
know but may know--who knows something because Professor Jitkoff----
Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please.
Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f.
Mr. JENNER. And at what institution is he a professor?
Mr. VOSHININ. Rice Institute. The head of the department of the Rice
Institute.
Mr. JENNER. What department?
Mr. VOSHININ. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De
Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston--I
know, that, too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very
respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As
anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times
that George and Jeanne dropped in--which is not her name. Her name is
Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see.
But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston.
There is a vague possibility of that--because that always sounded
peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they
live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e--in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we can reach him if he is a professor at Rice
Institute.
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course,
before we ever came here.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else occur to you?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her
fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet
consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to
them--but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are
not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City.
So, there is a slight possibility--but this is just speculation on my
part--that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also
to sell them some fashions--though I don't know, but this is possible,
you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know,
wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't want any part of them at all?
Mr. VOSHININ. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you
know, is going there to buy dictionaries--you know, and things like
that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New
York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you
know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you
know.
Mr. JENNER. Of going directly?
Mr. VOSHININ. Of going directly to deal with all of them, you know.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the
Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to the
time----
Mr. VOSHININ. Up to their departure. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time the De Mohrenschildts left for Haiti?
Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm,
of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips--a trip
every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time
they left, and even might have been prior to 1962?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, yeah, they may; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the
fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston?
Mr. VOSHININ. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De
Mohrenschildts became a nuisance.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And that was when?
Mr. VOSHININ. And then we started recollecting about the De
Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So,
that probably was late 1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. VOSHININ. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to
visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were
being made in September of 1963?
Mr. VOSHININ. In September of 1963, they were not here.
Mr. JENNER. So, they weren't here then?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; they left--I don't know which month they left for
Haiti--but I think they left way before September.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you know whether either of the De
Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the
spring of 1963?
Mr. VOSHININ. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether they have or haven't been?
Mr. VOSHININ. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And
I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they
are--Kirken.
Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please.
Mr. VOSHININ. Or whatever he calls himself--that's Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken.
K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call him _Kirten_ [phonetic].
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] K-a-r-t-o-n?
Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n--or o-n--I don't know. They
dropped in when they came from Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. They were here recently?
Mr. VOSHININ. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and
they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they
left--they couldn't stand that.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George
De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was
responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, I heard that story; yes.
Mr. JENNER. From whom did you hear it? And give us your recollection of
it.
Mr. VOSHININ. I think that--uh--well, I heard it from my wife, to tell
the truth.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll talk to her about that.
Mr. VOSHININ. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens,
maybe--or maybe from the children.
I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving
ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving
ridiculously--he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to
shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very
unpleasant scenes."
Mr. JENNER. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements
by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense?
Mr. VOSHININ. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually
about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he
became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand
it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. They are okay.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you
would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or
pertinent?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, not that I know at the present time, but----
Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week
and the week afterwards----
Mr. VOSHININ. Could you give me a telephone or anything?
Mr. JENNER. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and
somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or
some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney,
Mr. Sanders--Barefoot Sanders----
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I know.
Mr. JENNER. And he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of
us.
Mr. VOSHININ. Okay. Probably my wife will recollect a lot of things.
Mr. JENNER. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there
anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out
that you think ought to be on the record?
Mr. VOSHININ. Of what, for example?
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask
you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is
making?
Mr. VOSHININ. Not that I know, unless you recall something.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything which was stated by you----
Mr. VOSHININ. You know De Mohrenschildt has here a brother?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. His brother--he's a professor, according to your
information where?
Mr. VOSHININ. Dartmouth.
Mr. JENNER. At Dartmouth College?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I think he's perfectly okay--a very serious person.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, you know his three wives--his former wives?
Mr. JENNER. I've asked you about that.
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, his first wife, I think lives in Paris.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOSHININ. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist
of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth
wife.
Mr. JENNER. And his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct?
Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time
about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the
judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know. You ask--perhaps you have----
Mr. JENNER. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions
you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do,
I'll let you know.
Mr. VOSHININ. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just
across the street you can call me any time.
Mr. JENNER. What we usually do is to have the Secret Service call you.
Mr. VOSHININ. They're in the same building--two floors higher than me.
They can just call me up two stories up.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We'll close this deposition now.
You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's
typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read
it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to
modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This
young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this
perhaps written up during the course of the next week.
If you will call in--and also talk to Mr. Sanders--he will know when,
and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for
examination.
Mr. VOSHININ. Can I take it home and read it or do I have to come here?
Mr. JENNER. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the
right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at
whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy.
Mr. VOSHININ. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures
and for my records to have at home.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You make arrangements with this young lady.
Mr. VOSHININ. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay--and if
there is any way I can help, please--I'd just tell everything I know
without any hesitation.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I tried to pick your brain for everything I could
think of.
Mr. DAVIS. We do appreciate it--and thank you, sir.
Transcriber's Notes:
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant
preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be
due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of
conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be
periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at
the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at
the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so
faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and
corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be
available at LibraryBlog.
Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source.
Page 48: "Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in" did not
show "Evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected
here.
Page 156: "When did teach there?" probably is missing "you".
Page 214: "Executive Order No. 1130" should be "11130".
Page 223: "He likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in
italics.
Page 231: "Approximately hold old" should be "how".
Page 308: "Section 11, page 8" may be misprint for "Section II, page 8"
Page 330: "Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner" was misprinted as "Mrs.
BATES. I am Albert E. Jenner" with "BATES" in small-caps, followed by a
period, indicating that Mrs. Bates was the speaker. Changed here.
Page 333: "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe
before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin.
Page 363: "special train from" probably should be "training".
Page 369: "It took 2 years of something" was printed that way.
Page 390: "As far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas".
Page 427: "in Varna Pleven" is missing a comma after "Varna".
Page 458: "French woman, And he met her" was printed that way.
*** End of this LibraryBlog Digital Book "Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15)" ***
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