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Title: Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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Transcriber's note: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been
omitted from this eBook.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ I
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Foreword
On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive
Order No. 11130, creating a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and
report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late
President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man
charged with the assassination." By the same Executive order, the
President appointed seven Commissioners: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of
the United States; Richard B. Russell, Democratic Senator from Georgia;
John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky; Hale Boggs,
Democratic Congressman from Louisiana and House Majority Whip; Gerald
R. Ford, Republican Congressman from Michigan; Allen W. Dulles, former
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and John J. McCloy, former
High Commissioner of Germany. The President designated Chief Justice
Warren as the Commission's Chairman. The findings of the Commission,
based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the
separate volume entitled "Report of the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy."
An essential part of the investigation conducted by this Commission
has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing
information relevant to the inquiry. This testimony has been taken
under the authority of Senate Joint Resolution 137 (88th Cong., 1st
sess.), enacted by Congress on December 13, 1963, which conferred
upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations,
examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. Under the
procedures adopted by the Commission, some witnesses have appeared
before members of the Commission, others have been questioned under
oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided
affidavits to the Commission. Beginning with its first witness on
February 3, 1964, the Commission under these procedures took the
testimony of approximately 550 witnesses and received more than 3,100
exhibits into evidence.
The testimony and exhibits obtained by the Commission are printed in
this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order:
(1) Testimony before members of the Commission, in the order in
which it was taken.
(2) Testimony by sworn deposition or affidavit, grouped into
four general subject categories; the medical attention given to
the President and the Governor, identification of the assassin
of President Kennedy, the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and
the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack L. Ruby on November
24, 1963.
(3) Exhibits introduced in connection with the testimony before
the Commission in numerical order.
(4) Exhibits introduced in connection with sworn depositions
and affidavits, grouped alphabetically by name of witness.
(5) Other exhibits introduced before the Commission in
numerical order.
The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court
reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in
most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript
prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of
stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to
improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases
indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be
considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of
the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared
by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be
available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which
will apply to all records of this Commission.
Each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the
volume. In addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of
contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the
volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with
that testimony. Each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents
with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume.
Volume XV contains a name index setting forth all references to persons
(other than Lee Harvey Oswald) appearing in the Hearings volumes and
an index setting forth all references to Commission exhibits and
Deposition exhibits in these volumes.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume I: Mrs.
Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald; Mrs. Marguerite Oswald,
Oswald's mother; Robert Edward Lee Oswald, Oswald's brother; and James
Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as Mrs. Marina Oswald's
business manager.
Contents
Page
Foreword v
Preface vii
Testimony of--
Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald 1
Mrs. Marguerite Oswald 126
Robert Edward Lee Oswald 264
James Herbert Martin 469
COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Transcriber's Note: Three pages of Exhibit numbers have been omitted
from this eBook.
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
_Monday, February 3, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD
The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at
200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne,
attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I.
Gopadze, interpreters.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here?
The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make
a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this
statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the
record, I should like to read it.
On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive
Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate,
and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late
President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man
charged with the assassination."
On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which
authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent
or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer
oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter----
The CHAIRMAN. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the
end he may do that.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing
each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin,
to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive
evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.
The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina
Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death,
was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the
Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald
and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission
to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and
any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission
also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement
and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking
of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has
also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and
Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general
scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining
witnesses and the receiving of evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a
copy of this?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there.
Mr. THORNE. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions about it?
Mr. THORNE. There are no questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness.
Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald.
(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald,
through the interpreter.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn.
(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the
stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the
witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the
interpreter.)
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you
that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every
manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that
you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want,
either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being
protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a
ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any
questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she
has said you may feel free to ask them.
After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you
so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call
it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you?
Mr. THORNE. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions
for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and
then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess
until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can
see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock,
and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise
you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free
to say so and we will take care of it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
who is the general counsel of the Commission.
I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will
tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers.
Will you state your name, please?
Mrs. OSWALD. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden
name was Prussakova.
Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time I live in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. And where in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Thorne knows my address.
Mr. THORNE. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you live with friends there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old
in February, and Rachel is 3 months old.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your
experiences in the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it.
Mr. RANKIN. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy
of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this
document in Russian that you furnished to us?
Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote this document not specifically for this
Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not
enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my
life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days.
Mr. RANKIN. And by "him" who did you mean?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in
Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one.
Mr. RANKIN. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you
know?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the
assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews
with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did.
Mr. RANKIN. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I
assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in
those interviews, is that true?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how many there were.
Mr. RANKIN. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that
is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add
to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not
everything was true.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us----
Mrs. OSWALD. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in
those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now?
Will you tell us that?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time, I can't remember any specific
instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up
I will say so.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United
States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the 13th of June, 1962--I am not quite certain as to
the year--'61 or '62, I think '62.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to this country?
Mrs. OSWALD. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to
Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New
York to Dallas by air.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was the SS _Rotterdam_ but I am not sure.
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did you arrive in New York?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was--about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to
remember the exact time.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in New York at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in
New York, and then we left the following day by air.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times
Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do during your stay in New York?
Mrs. OSWALD. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look
at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order
to arrange for tickets, and so forth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during
that period?
Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee
we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had
something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them
in English and I didn't understand it.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any
financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said
that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the
trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American
Embassy in Moscow.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight
to Texas?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in
Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at
the house.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your
family?
Mrs. OSWALD. His family and no one else.
Mr. RANKIN. What did his family consist of at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay at Robert's?
Mrs. OSWALD. About 1 to 1-1/2 months--perhaps longer, but no longer
than 2 months.
Mr. RANKIN. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant
at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us
was very good.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time
when you were at Robert's?
Mrs. OSWALD. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting
for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who
was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the
household.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he
seek work right away?
Mrs. OSWALD. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to
the library. That is it.
Mr. RANKIN. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did he find his first job there?
Mrs. OSWALD. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of
the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember
the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time
rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that
we live with her for some time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your
mother-in-law to have you live with her?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of
course, I found out about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found
out about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. You recall that discussion?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only remember the fact.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he find work after you left Robert's then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her
for a time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not
want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there
any more?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but
he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I
know this for sure.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that at the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his
mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when
he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she
thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to
her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that
he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I
think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal
about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and
Lee felt that he had done most of--the greatest effort in that respect
and didn't want to discuss it.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered
it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know,
but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived,
and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work,
something for buildings.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for
about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was
discharged?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know
why.
Mr. RANKIN. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an apartment there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember the exact number.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had?
Mrs. OSWALD. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom.
Mr. RANKIN. This was the first time since you had come to this country
then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had our own home in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with
housework?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical
nature rather than fiction or literature.
Mr. RANKIN. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a
great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how
that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living
room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it
happened.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have differences between you about the time that he
spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of
the family?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his
mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his
mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans
he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me
he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at
Mercedes Street the first time.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit
you or did you visit him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he came to us sometimes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you
were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and
your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and
Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit
us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we
were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for
her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was
quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then
we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for
her, I don't want her to come here any more."
Mr. RANKIN. During this period did your husband spend much time with
the baby, June?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved children very much.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you obtain a television set at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then
returned it. Should I speak a little louder?
Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing
the payments?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he only guaranteed the payments.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much the television set cost?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's
income?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with
the welding company?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one
then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He looked for work for some time but he could not find
it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in
Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. How long was he out of work?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember,
perhaps that long.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know it was some kind of a printing company which
prepares photographs for newspapers.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he working with the photographic department of that
company?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the
welding company?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it
was a dollar and a quarter an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he work much overtime at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing
company?
Mrs. OSWALD. A dollar forty an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked
later, and on Saturdays, too.
Mr. RANKIN. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week
then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find
this job in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at
Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with
Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him
we became acquainted with others.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that
you knew in Fort Worth?
Mrs. OSWALD. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali
Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met
George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford.
Mr. RANKIN. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you
met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth?
Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt--this was both in Fort Worth and
Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each
other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you
met in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives
in Dallas?
Mr. RANKIN. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those
you had already met in Fort Worth?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was
George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt--no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe
only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in
Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and
see us.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever visit them in their homes?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several
times to visit them.
Mr. RANKIN. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening
or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you
describe that?
Mrs. OSWALD. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night.
We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during
this period?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they
visited you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. They usually brought--they usually came for short
visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as
cucumbers, George liked cucumbers.
Mr. RANKIN. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to
Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived
with Elena Hall.
Mr. RANKIN. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that it was about a month and a half.
Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half what did your husband do?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the
telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMcA but
very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half did he come and see you and
the baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had
no car. It was not very easy.
Mr. RANKIN. Were these trips to see you on the weekends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for
your room and your meals?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to
help us.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you?
Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some
place?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, we didn't go anywhere.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he do any reading there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he
came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of
time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could
not stay very long.
Mr. RANKIN. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had
been doing in Dallas, his work and other things?
Mrs. OSWALD. He liked his work very much.
Mr. RANKIN. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all
to live together?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no
problem there to find a place.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you then move to a home in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the number?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place
on Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. A friend who had a car helped us--I don't remember his
name, Taylor, Gary Taylor.
The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to
allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself.
(Short recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission may be in order.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from
Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. One trip was enough.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it
rooms or an apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. An apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. How many rooms in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom.
It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what rent you paid?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities.
Mr. RANKIN. That would be $60 a month?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty
dollars a month including water.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband help you with the housework at that
address?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he always helped.
Mr. RANKIN. What about his reading habits there, were they the same?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about the same.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did
he spend several hours each evening in this reading?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth
Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of
the United States.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come home for a midday meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out in the evenings?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you go?
Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though
Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did
not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far
away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream.
Mr. RANKIN. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food
with you and have a picnic?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or
what means of transportation?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from
us.
Mr. RANKIN. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at
that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee took English courses or typing courses.
Mr. RANKIN. During what days of the week were these typing courses?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what
the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week
and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses.
Mr. RANKIN. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were
Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on
Monday.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to
be at these classes?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that it was from 7 until 9.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time would he get home from work?
Mrs. OSWALD. About 5 to 5:30.
Mr. RANKIN. Then would you eat your evening meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after that would he leave for the class?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home
for dinner, usually he didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which
he would review when he was at home.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the class was over did he come home
ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nine o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these
classes?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any
guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De
Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this
was on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street
apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and
that was more convenient for the child.
Mr. RANKIN. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. The same type of apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the only difference the terrace then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a
second-floor apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between
the two places?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It
seems to me it was $55.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any differences with your husband while you
were at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel
between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth.
Mr. RANKIN. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of
you. Did that occur at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was on Elsbeth Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what brought that about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it
was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to
Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of
returning to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that
that--Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted
me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case
what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place.
Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did
not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me
but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had
in mind I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going
to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him
to start to talk that way?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he started to hit you about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't.
I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his
tension.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that immediately after coming to the United
States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what
they were as you saw them?
Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a
recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me
to have anything to do with them.
He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand.
At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said
some stupid or foolish things.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left
Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same
position being an American in America but there were really no reasons
but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and
everything is measured by money. It seems to me that perhaps he was
envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was.
When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear
that.
Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of
uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he
said foolish things.
This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for
these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is
just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It
isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask
you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you
will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on
the problem. You understand that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand you are not asking these questions out of
curiosity but for a reason.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends
that he disliked more than others?
Mrs. OSWALD. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he--because he was a strong
person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell him you liked these people?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and
that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like
they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put
me into--put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends
so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street.
Mr. RANKIN. How long were you gone from him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. One week.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and
went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was
but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De
Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did
not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce
rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this
is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I
simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a
little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat
you if you returned?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then
it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if
there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for
the children.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said that it would be--it was very hard for him.
That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And
he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left
feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about accepting him as he was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was
for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that
he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he
was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the
sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior.
Mr. RANKIN. Then did he get in touch with you again?
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's
and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose
husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent
several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did
not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when
I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see
me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that
evening and he cried and said that he wanted me to return home because
if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he
didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to
change.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that you are confused--this was Elena Hall
in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very
interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea
of your going to Russia alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That
he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I
could work in Russia. That was all.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed
that you go and he stay?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his
foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he
didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that
time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell
me.
Mr. RANKIN. What would you say to him at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he
could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live
with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know
the reason he would not tell me.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there something that you have learned since that caused
you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide
for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to
do?
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was
in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand
himself. I thought that I was the reason for that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a job then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was
earning?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide
more for the family?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. We had enough.
Mr. RANKIN. You were not complaining about the way you were living?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also
written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans
$200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very
luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of
the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have
this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell
me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they
had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that
is not true.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia
that he was proposing to break up your marriage?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a
divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say why?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that
would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted
to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in
the United States I want to be free in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. During this period did he appear to be more excited and
nervous?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited
and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in
Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. By the later time that you just referred to what do you
mean? Can you give us some approximate date?
Mrs. OSWALD. When we went to Neely Street.
The CHAIRMAN. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess
now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Let us proceed.
(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype
Reporter.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions?
In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about
the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it
easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these
developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was
suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that
matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had,
which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought
back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us those things that you observed that
caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will
ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or
that you have obtained more light on since.
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no
reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand
him at that time.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in
the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of
time, where he read--where he kept his things, and that is where the
rifle was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from
in a closet in the room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think--I saw
some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle.
But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in
the room.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have
the scope on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the
rifle when you first saw it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What
do we need that for?"
He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was
not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You
men. That is your business.
The CHAIRMAN. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never served in the Army.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at
Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a
corner or on a shelf.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in
Russia? Was it brought over to this country?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the
first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't
want to say too much.
Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know
of that your husband had after you were married to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had
been shown to him, but I don't remember that.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the
apartment on Neely Street at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. You must know that the rifle--it isn't as if it was out in
the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the
room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening
I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't
know whether he took it with him or not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think
you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason
for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything.
Mr. GOPADZE. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as
she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as
you remember it?
Mrs. OSWALD. About four times--about four or five times, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning
the--that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after
use?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite
normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away
from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I
never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in
the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say
bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably
did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it
away without my seeing it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of
the apartment at Neely Street--that is, that it was gone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee
was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he
told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs,
but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it
so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite
accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take
care of it himself.
I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say
anything to me.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were
asking about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it.
I didn't know that he intended to do it--that he was planning to do it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with
the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see
him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing--it
isn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going"--it wasn't as if he
said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."
But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for
practice."
Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether
perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little
square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.
When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle,
but he also had a gun, a revolver.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you
remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired
the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice--once
in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.
Mr. RANKIN. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle
and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the
pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can't say.
Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are
you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place
where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It
seems to me a place called Lopfield.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport--Love Field?
Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a
rifle range?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was
on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I hadn't paid any attention initially.
I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a
telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was
in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the
telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention.
I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have
that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That for a man to have a rifle--since I am a woman, I
don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you
took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like
that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone
crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not
my business--it was man's business.
If I had known these were such dangerous toys, of course--you
understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I
didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with
the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February,
possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't
attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I
took any pictures.
I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me--if
someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it on a day off that you took the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was on a Sunday.
Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take
the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the
rifle and I was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and
asked me to press a certain button.
Mr. RANKIN. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was
he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the
telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it
immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention
at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for
everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the
time that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two
photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were
two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the
photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a
photographic album yourself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for
June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter
occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know
better when this happened.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at
General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to
his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own
business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I
began to be worried. Perhaps even later.
Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I
was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said,
"If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as,
for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and
that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't
understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I
asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the
exact time, but it was very late.
And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he
had shot at General Walker.
Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the
police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in
his state I decided I had best leave him alone--it would be purposeless
to question him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried,
and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the
rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems
to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find
it by smell.
I don't know--I am not a criminologist.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he had shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that he had no right to kill people in
peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has
the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike.
He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he
was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even
though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to
take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would
have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your
ideas, by means of a rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months.
Yes--perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his
conduct I could tell he was planning--he had been planning this for two
months or perhaps a little even earlier.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a little recess?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, thank you. Better to get it over with.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you a picture of the Walker house then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. That was after the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He had a book--he had a notebook in which he noted
down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But
I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room
and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of
memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever read that book?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this
Walker house picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Photographs and notes, and I think there was a map in
there.
Mr. RANKIN. There was a map of the area where the Walker house was?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker
lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was
calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and
computed something.
After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had
been using a bus.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus
just as well as other people could use a car--something of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before
that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know
why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the
street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in
the crowd and not be noticed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he
meant by it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--he said he had in mind that if in case he were
arrested, I would know what to do.
Mr. RANKIN. The note doesn't say anything about Walker, does it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note
and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"
Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the
Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired
on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the
rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh
your memory as to the day of the week at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?
Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened
that evening?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker
or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers
and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but
there were no reports.
The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance
that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been
killed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was
just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not
hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like
that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he
should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and
that if something like that should be repeated again, I would go to
the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.
He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us,
and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible
that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it.
And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De
Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed--it was in
the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became
speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not
always--but in this case.
Mr. RANKIN. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told--your husband
told him personal things that you knew of?
Mrs. OSWALD. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I
think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I
don't know--he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he
is being accused justly of being a Communist.
Mr. RANKIN. That is De Mohrenschildt that you refer to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker
incident when you learned about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons
why you didn't. Will you tell us?
Mrs. OSWALD. Why I did not tell about it?
First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the
local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But,
of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like
that, I would have told.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return the note to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought
that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he
destroyed it.
Mr. RANKIN. That is this book that you have just referred to in which
he had the Walker house picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the note that he had left for you
after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two--I
don't remember in which.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your relations with your husband change after this
Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us the changes as you observed them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after that, Lee lost his job--I don't know for what
reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days.
And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New
Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted
to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even
though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because
a rifle for him was not a very good toy--a toy that was too enticing.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans
because of the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town.
He had been born there.
Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like
that again, did you then believe him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained
in the house.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the
rifle out any more to practice?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when you went to New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself.
At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with
her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me
that he had found a job and that I should come down.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first get acquainted with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of months earlier--probably in
January.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did
she invite you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her
through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people,
and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me
to stay with her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay her anything for staying with her?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in
the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in
her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted
that I remain with her longer.
But, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband.
Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband let you know that he had found a job?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you then leave at once for New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did you get to New Orleans from Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children
and my things and we went there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have much in the way of household goods to move?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everything--we could put everything into one car. But, in
fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the gun with him to New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was
not among my things.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already
had rented an apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she
stay with you for any period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she was there for two days.
Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they
friendly?
Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was
quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't
like her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me--these
are not my words.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I
also--I was--I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to
be a very smart woman.
Mr. RANKIN. I think it is about time for a recess, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will take a recess for 10 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will be in order.
Mr. Rankin, you may continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you discuss the Walker shooting with Mrs.
Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is
after--that is later.
Mr. RANKIN. When was it that you told the FBI about the Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 weeks after Lee was killed.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from
the FBI?
Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI visited us in Fort Worth when we lived on Mercedes
Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in August 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the names of the FBI agents that visited you
then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work
and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man
introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him.
There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I
was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more
work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the
fact that the FBI was interested in him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that interview take place in the car?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he
said to them?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said
that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit
him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the
FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee
just said that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to
work for them?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in
this interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw
Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I
had returned from Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had
acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had
proposed that he be an agent for them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he said to them in that regard?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had answered no.
Mr. RANKIN. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any
later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went
to New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, there were no other interviews.
The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is
after I returned from New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for?
Mrs. OSWALD. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in
what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps
more correctly, he did not--I know that he didn't like this job.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he received in pay from that job?
Mrs. OSWALD. $1.35 an hour, I think. I am not sure.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did he work for this coffee company?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he discharged?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then was he unemployed for a time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. After you had discussed with your husband your going to
Russia, was anything done about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request
to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already
in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that
my husband wants to return with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just
referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But that is easily determined.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you asking for a visa to return to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you
before you wrote the second letter that you have described?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he
was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that
nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he
returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that
it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow,
not to be worried about tomorrow.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this a change in his attitude?
Mrs. OSWALD. Towards me or towards Russia?
Mr. RANKIN. Towards going to Russia.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply
that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he
had--after all, he had to think about his family.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he did get a passport?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me he always had a passport.
Mr. RANKIN. While he was in New Orleans, that he got a passport?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he
immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green
passport. He even had two--one that had expired, and a new one.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when the new one was issued?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. It seems to me in the Embassy when we arrived. I don't
know.
But please understand me correctly, I am not hiding this. I simply
don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy
asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to
school, that you knew of?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend his earnings with you and your child?
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active
with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is
what you are looking for.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was it kept there?
Mrs. OSWALD. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He
had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle in a cover there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New
Orleans at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had
a kind of a porch with a--screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes
evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know
what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just
sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and
resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you
recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested
there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the
back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to
practice with the telescopic lens?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go
to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to Cuba. I told him I was
not going with him--that I would stay here.
Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle,
would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair
Play for Cuba incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba
and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft.
And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing."
Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe that idea to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted
to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should
help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle.
This sounds very merry, but I am very much ashamed of it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking
about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that everything would go well. He was very
self-reliant--if I didn't want to.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk of divorce during this period?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not
counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did
not really have--generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me.
But, of course, I did not agree with his views.
Mr. RANKIN. At this time in New Orleans did he discuss with you his
views?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mostly--most of the conversations were on the subject of
Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything said about the United States--not liking
the United States.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I can't say--he liked some things in Russia, he liked
some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like
some things here.
And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was
from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that
if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on
the moon, perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he didn't like about the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are
fascist organizations here. That was one thing.
The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find
work. And that medical expenses were very high.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say who he blamed for this?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't blame anyone.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything about President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. At least--I was always interested in President Kennedy
and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or
magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated
it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior--from
Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President,
and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it
from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime
minister. I think that he had a sick imagination--at least at that time
I already considered him to be not quite normal--not always, but at
times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any
others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that.
I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to
some more practical matters, and not something like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you
to think he was different?
Mrs. OSWALD. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite
unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then
the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in
autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States
and others.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to
think that he was different?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he compared himself to these people whose
autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is
necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that
kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a
letter from somebody in New York, some Communist--probably from New
York--I am not sure from where--from some Communist leader and he was
very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the
letter from.
You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent,
in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't
understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did,
that there were people who understood his activity.
I would say that to Lee--that Lee could not really do much for Cuba,
that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to.
Mr. RANKIN. You would tell that to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And what would he say in return?
Mrs. OSWALD. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was
even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping
a plane. But I talked him out of it.
Mr. RANKIN. The airplane schedules from New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. New Orleans--but--from New Orleans--leaving New Orleans in
an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go
to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. He discussed this with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur--before or
after he lost his job?
Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better
if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such
foolishness.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to
Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to
come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go
to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba--perhaps through
the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said
so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. I know Lee fairly well--well enough from that
point of view.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on
to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go
there, too, somehow.
But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to
Russia, he would let me know in any case.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did he start to do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity.
He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good
opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad
about him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about Castro to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for
his government, and very active.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba
organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you that correspondence?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was
writing to them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa
from New Orleans.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what address you gave in New Orleans when you
wrote?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter,
but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is
why I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or
at a post office box?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we
received our mail.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for
Cuba at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no organization. He was alone. He was quite
alone.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about his arrest there?
Mrs. OSWALD. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and
returned, he told me he had been arrested.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think
that after that occurrence--he became less active, he cooled off a
little.
Mr. RANKIN. Less active in the Fair Play for Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I
think that his heart was no longer in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in
New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair,
anything of that kind.
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he paid a fine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of
jail?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that
the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good
person.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, did you get to know the
Murrets?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in
this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to
be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he
would be known.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being
in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he thought that would help him when he got to
Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what
you guess?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his--when
the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him
when he went to Mexico.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the Murrets come to visit you from time to time in New
Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to
them.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that a friendly relationship?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that they were more of a family relationship
type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of
his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that
incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the
fact that they were all very religious.
When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that
he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry
about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just
bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare."
Mr. KRIMER. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is
a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own
personal interests, inclined to be an egotist.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about
this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did the uncle say to your husband about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time. I did not know English too well, and Lee
would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that
he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that
kind of activity.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your husband's attitude about your learning
English?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me
any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me
to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself
somehow. That is the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did any of your Russian friends visit you at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New
Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth
Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to
find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this
woman visited us. But other than that, no one.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this woman?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is
also Ruth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there
at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday
morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the
allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because
in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the
leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that
is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented
himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe
him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent
when they came to the jail to see him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in
response to your letter to take you back to Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She
apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come
after her vacation.
Mr. RANKIN. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around
September 30, and then came a little before that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come
either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at
that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the
station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant
at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went
back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived. I tried to put the bed, the child's crib
together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I
came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of
the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs.
Paine's car too?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where the pistol was.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss
whether you would be paying her anything for board and room?
Mrs. OSWALD. She proposed that I again live with her on the same
conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than
to pay a school. She received better instruction that way.
In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me--she didn't spend
any more than she usually spent.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give her lessons in Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the
nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to
prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your
return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were.
Mr. RANKIN. In what part of the garage?
Mrs. OSWALD. In that part which is closer to the street, because that
garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and
the other out in the street.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt
end?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor.
Mr. RANKIN. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he
say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to
the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to
Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. In a hotel.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you the name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't know where he would stop.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the
trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had
some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much it would cost?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be
sufficient.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any
presents before he went?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I
would like, and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets.
But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to
Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure
that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I
had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure
that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico.
Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or
New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet.
Mr. RANKIN. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your
name on it, did it not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it too small?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he
promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and
I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico
City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that
kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI,
but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican
records, but he did not do that.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. By bus.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket
was cheaper than two one-way tickets.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to
Irving or to Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he
telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and
had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where he had been in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me at the YMcA.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he come right out to see you then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies,
that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too
much--too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well.
And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least
take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would
be beneficial to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he
spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in
the city.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
He said that he did not like the Mexican girls.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban
Embassy, or consulate?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what people he talked to?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the
hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at
the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with
him.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or
consulate?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was quite without results.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials
of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans
seemed to have a system similar to the Russians--too much red tape
before you get through there.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico
City trip that you haven't related?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is all that I can remember about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico
City?
Mrs. OSWALD. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that
I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned.
Mr. RANKIN. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico
City to his return, was that about 7 days?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he was there for about a week.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you
did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to
the Commission how that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do
not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them.
Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They
questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought
that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't
change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that
Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about
it didn't make any difference.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what
you knew of the Mexico City trip before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no,
I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I
couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that.
It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that
first night when he returned from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he stayed overnight there.
And in the morning we took him to Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. And by "we" who do you mean?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine, I and her children.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he did in Dallas, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff,
and to look for work.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he did that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was
not lazy.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he rent the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he
telephoned me and told me about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him
to Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it
would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an
apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with
him, or he would be living there alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time,
because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a
woman who spoke English and Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at
that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads,
newspaper ads.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have trouble finding work again?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How long after his return was it before he found a job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two to three weeks.
Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get
unemployment compensation?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he was getting then?
Mrs. OSWALD. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can
fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad
to rest and receive money.
Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he
received unemployment compensation?
Mrs. OSWALD. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it
was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received
one more check.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with him possible places of employment
after his return from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that.
But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting
Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he
might find some work.
Mr. RANKIN. And when was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and
ascertain date. But I think you probably know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it shortly before he obtained work?
Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went
there and he did get the job.
Mr. RANKIN. And who was it that you got the information from?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the
school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy
there.
Mr. RANKIN. What was his name?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We
will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Tuesday, February 4, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John
J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters;
and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the
material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would
like to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. I
hope you will bear with us in regard to that.
Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book
that he had typed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But
he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand.
Mr. RANKIN. And do you know about when he started to have it retyped
here?
Mrs. OSWALD. We arrived in June. I think it was at the end of June.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time it is--I don't know where--the police
department or the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. And what was done with the diary? Do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken.
But where it is now, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the
police department?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all
these things were taken.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us about what you know about their being
taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various
things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs.
Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was
not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. What hotel was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this diary kept by your husband daily, so far as you
know?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, Russia first.
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he
had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time.
Mr. RANKIN. And was it in his own handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your
husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August
of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps
there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth
somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to
interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI
came, too.
Mr. RANKIN. The particular interview that I am asking you about was
June 26, according to information from the FBI.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it. The first time I knew about the FBI
coming was when we lived in Fort Worth.
Mr. RANKIN. What rental did you pay on Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes
Street with your husband--that is, any quarreling there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only in connection with his mother, because of his mother.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you having any problems about finances there, on
Mercedes Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy
anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his
debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly
difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close
friend of your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least
he had--here in America--he had a great deal of respect for De
Mohrenschildt.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each
other often?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very frequently. From time to time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De
Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy
of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person.
Mr. RANKIN. We had a report that----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would
bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit--with
his dogs--he is very loud.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you like him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Him and his wife.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand any of the conversations between your
husband and De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were held in Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or
anything of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about
politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about
current political events.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or
the Government in the United States at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, only George said that before she got married he knew
Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then
he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book
he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference
to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise,
walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the
Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book.
I don't know--perhaps this is foolishness.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about
President Kennedy at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing bad.
Mr. RANKIN. When you referred to George, did you mean Mr. De
Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a
book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement.
Mr. RANKIN. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had several daughters, and many wives.
Mr. RANKIN. Was one of his daughters named Taylor, her last name?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the
present time, I think he has--that is his fourth wife.
Mr. RANKIN. And what was her----
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that that is the last one.
Mr. RANKIN. What was her husband's name--the Taylor daughter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Gary Taylor.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in
Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with
them for a couple of days.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. October or November, 1962.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time,
move you and your daughter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to
Elsbeth Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he help you to move to Mrs. Hall's at any time, anyone
else?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he
came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived--to Mrs.
Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do when he came? Were those just visits?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, just visits. Just visits, with his wife and child.
Mr. RANKIN. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed
them the rifle, did you say anything about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps I did say something to him, but I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done?
Bought a rifle" or something of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. This sounds like something I might say. Perhaps I did.
Mr. RANKIN. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with
Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about how that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that
I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be
company.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your
husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband
went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for--at first, for some time he stayed at
the YMcA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what
address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address
was a post office box.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of
the time with Gary Taylor?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work
and staying at the YMcA and at this apartment that you referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he stayed at the YMcA he had already found work, and
I was in Fort Worth.
Mr. RANKIN. And where in Fort Worth were you staying then?
Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Hall.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband
during this period in the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice that change?
Mrs. OSWALD. At--at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the
FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to have two different personalities then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause
you to think that he was changing?
Mrs. OSWALD. Generally he was--usually he was quite as he always was.
He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently
without reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he
became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him
anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as
to help us to know the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences,
sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes
late, and I do mean five minutes--it is not that I am exaggerating--he
would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because
he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation
ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the
butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it.
This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated
by things like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your
personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why
he might have done the things he did.
I hope you understand that.
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you
because we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his
having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did
such things.
Mrs. OSWALD. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very
sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes
it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave
him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no
reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in
the sense of age.
Mr. RANKIN. When he became jealous, did he discuss that with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things which
he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I
had a young man who was a boyfriend--this was before we were married,
a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written
him a letter from here. I had--I wrote him that I was very lonely here,
that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not
married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had
mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But
this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and
the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it
was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across
from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my
foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that
this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told
him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to
tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered
thing.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about
that matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be
ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in
love with me. But this was after he hit me.
Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right
thing to do. There was some grounds for it.
Please excuse me. Perhaps I talk too much.
Mr. RANKIN. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with
your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did
not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he
lived in Dallas.
But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say
anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if
you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact
that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you a member of any church?
Mrs. OSWALD. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to
church--first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there
is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own
heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church.
Mr. RANKIN. While your husband--or while you were visiting the Halls,
did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he
already had work there.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in
Dallas about November 3, 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. For him?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment.
But that was in October.
What date I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas
to live with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Cleaned everything up.
Mr. RANKIN. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some
time on or about the date that he rented that apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas,
did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for
one week. I had already told you about that.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the Meller matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her
about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come
to stay with her?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but he didn't beat me.
Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had
beaten me, because it had happened.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your
husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when
I did not live with him.
I am asking about which period is it. I don't remember the dates.
Mr. RANKIN. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so
that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with
him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street?
No, I was there longer.
Mr. RANKIN. And do you recall the date that you went to Mrs. Hall's,
then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment
was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around
November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your
friend?
Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately a month and a half. Perhaps a month. I am
not sure.
Mr. RANKIN. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in
Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he
came for a visit.
Mr. RANKIN. And during that time, did he tell you where he was staying?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not
tell me his address.
I want to help you, but I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in
America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He
himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what
the reason for that was, I don't know.
Am I giving sufficient answers to your questions?
Mr. RANKIN. You are doing fine.
Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to
do with his ideas and political opinions?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to
our personal relationship, not political reasons.
Mr. RANKIN. In your story you say that what was involved was some of
his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant
by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce.
I knew that Lee had such political leanings.
Mr. RANKIN. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time
when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you
noticed that difference?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De
Mohrenschildt who visited us. He was the only one who remained our
friend. The others sort of removed themselves.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not
very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see
them. They felt that he did not like them.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to
think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want
them to come to visit.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he show any signs of that attitude towards them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit.
Sometimes he would even quarrel with them.
Mr. RANKIN. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political
ideas or what subjects?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on
political matters.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course it is difficult to remember all the
conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with
reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of
everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like
the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that
is all. All that I can remember.
Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to
the conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the
substance of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to
the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee
insisted on it.
Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his
insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first
request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. February 17?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the
beginning of February.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the
Embassy on February 17?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said,
"Write."
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your
own drafting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my
words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At
least that is what I thought.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking
and drinking wine, other things like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that
I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been
better if he had smoked and drank.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years--I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the circumstances when you met her?
Mrs. OSWALD. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt
and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was
acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there
were a number of other people there, Americans.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was this friend? Do you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest,
perhaps I could say.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mr. Glover?
Mrs. OSWALD. What is his first name?
Mr. RANKIN. Everett.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know his last name.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Mrs. Paine in Russian at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. A little, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.
Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband treat June? Was he a good father?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, very good.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your
child after you saw this change in his personality?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband
treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change
diapers, take photographs--everything that fathers generally do.
Mr. RANKIN. He showed considerable affection for her at all times, did
he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If I would punish June, he would punish me.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Michael Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for
the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a
Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in
Irving.
Mr. RANKIN. They were living together at that time, were they?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Michael Paine know Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether
your husband had his job or had lost it?
Mrs. OSWALD. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and
it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was
discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday.
Mr. RANKIN. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged,
was it not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the preceding Friday--the Friday after the
incident. That is what he told me.
Mr. RANKIN. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you
didn't know it then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to
work as usual?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did he return that day, do you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. Late at night, about 11.
Mr. RANKIN. He did not come home for dinner then, before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had come home, and then left again.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he
returned home and had dinner?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he appear to be excited, nervous?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he
was tense.
Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some
thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in
his eyes, that something had happened.
Mr. RANKIN. And you saw it this day, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did he leave the home after dinner?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about 7. Perhaps 7:30.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe whether he took any gun with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He
said, "Bye-bye."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did
not return?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't look to see.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have gone our hour.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you
might refresh yourself.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may
continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the
trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell
us all about what you knew.
Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the
Mexican trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to
leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it.
Mr. RANKIN. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he
say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or
anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet
about it.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you
if you recall seeing that document before.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the
Walker incident.
Mr. RANKIN. That you already testified about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And there is attached to it a purported English translation.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you want that marked and introduced at this time, Mr.
Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I would like to offer the document.
The CHAIRMAN. The document may be marked Exhibit 1 and offered in
evidence.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on
that note, "The Red Cross also will help you."
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would
run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that possibility before you found
the note?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he left you the address book?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers
of his and my friends in Russia and here.
Mr. RANKIN. And you had seen that book before and knew its contents,
did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if
you know what that is.
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the
Walker house in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it--at least--taken from this view I can't
recognize it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw
showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I
never saw the house itself at any time in my life.
Mr. RANKIN. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture
that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your
husband had taken and put in his book?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember
this particular one.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, do you want this in the record?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that
sufficiently.
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there
that I might be able to recognize.
Mr. RANKIN. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then
pick out the Walker house.
Mrs. OSWALD. I know these photographs.
Mr. RANKIN. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit
4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that
photograph, or those photographs.
Mrs. OSWALD. All of them?
Mr. RANKIN. Whichever ones you can.
Mrs. OSWALD. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph
from Leningrad. P-3--this is probably New Orleans. P-4--Leningrad. It
is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you point out by number the photograph of the Walker
house?
Mrs. OSWALD. P-2.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for
identification were part of your husband's photographs?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer Exhibit 4 for identification in
evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received
in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. What is being offered--the whole of it, or just P-2?
Mr. RANKIN. No, all of it--because she identified the others, too, as a
part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed
out P-2 as being the Walker residence.
When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in
this Exhibit 2?
Mrs. OSWALD. After the Walker incident Lee showed it to me.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did you know it was a photograph of the Walker
residence?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you
can identify the photographs there.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house.
P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in
Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I
was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed
overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul--Pavel Golovachev. He is
assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from
Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker
house on that exhibit?
Mrs. OSWALD. P-1.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first see that exhibit, P-1, of Exhibit 3?
Mrs. OSWALD. Together with the other one. P-2 and P-6, I know that they
are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at
the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified
regarding the Walker house?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly.
It is hard to remember.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that the evening after your husband returned from
the Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. This was on one of the succeeding days.
Mr. RANKIN. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the
shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 3.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you
showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house.
Mr. RANKIN. But the other ones, you do remember those photographs?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the others I do.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker
house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we
did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other
exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he
discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit----
Mrs. OSWALD. There was some railroad--not just a photograph of a house.
Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs.
Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit 4 for identification----
Mrs. OSWALD. One photograph with a car.
Mr. RANKIN. ----if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit.
Mrs. OSWALD. As for P-1 and P-2, I don't know what they are.
P-3, that is Lee in the Army.
P-4, I don't know what that is.
P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee--he showed it to me after the
incident.
Mr. RANKIN. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did
he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker
shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad.
It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of
relationship to the incident.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence photographs P-3 and P-5 on this exhibit.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, and take the next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask
you if you recognize those two photographs.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. These photographs I know, both of them. They seem to
be identical. Walker's house.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first see those exhibits?
Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident.
Mr. RANKIN. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the
Walker house that you have described?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had these photographs?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself--I concluded
myself that these photographs would help him in that business.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the business of the shooting at the Walker house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting,
and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, to the members of the Secret Service and the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your mother-in-law?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I also told his mother about it.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell his mother about the incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday--he was arrested on
Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother--whether it was on
the same Friday--yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station.
From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she
remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee
with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English.
I explained as best I could about it. And that is why I showed her the
photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans,
did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning
to Russia at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that about the first part of July, that you wrote?
Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.
Mr. RANKIN. And then did you write a second letter to follow up the
first one?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that
is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and
look at it.
Mrs. OSWALD. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter
written from New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed
to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you
wrote to the Embassy about this matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, this is a reply to my first letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state
whether that is the first letter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration.
But there was a letter in addition to it.
Mr. RANKIN. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return
to the Soviet Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about granting me a visa.
Mr. RANKIN. And what date does that bear?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is dated March 17, 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you send it with your letter about the date that it
bears?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
I don't know--perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to
send this.
Mr. RANKIN. But you did send it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of
that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the second letter?
Mr. RANKIN. I want to go step by step.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, I understand. That is not introduced yet.
Mr. RANKIN. It might be confusing if we get them out of order.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the first letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred
to as being the first letter, does it bear a date?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?
Mrs. OSWALD. It says there the 17th of February.
Mr. RANKIN. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your
declaration that you just referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next
letter. I am not sure.
Mr. RANKIN. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the
first letter is in your handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the translation into English that
is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct
translation?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can't do that, because----
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell
her whether it is a correct translation?
Mr. KRIMER. If I may translate it from the English, she could check it.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but
I had to compose some such letters.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in
Russian as Exhibit 6.
The CHAIRMAN. Together with the translation that is attached to it?
Mr. RANKIN. Together with the translation that is attached to it as
Exhibit 7.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7,
respectively, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if
that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter
or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and
filled out questionnaires.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second
letter that you have just referred to.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you,
if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you
if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the
declaration.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply from the Embassy, a reply to my first
letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the
original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite
our hearing.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will have a short recess.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. We will proceed.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order
now.
I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and
the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the
references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask
you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the
Embassy.
Mrs. OSWALD. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy,
an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate
photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were
attached to my second letter after the answer to my first.
Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is
the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the answer to that letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation?
Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing is that the address and the telephone
number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are
in the translation.
Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise the translation is correct, is it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Otherwise, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8
for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't
be confused about the order of these.
The CHAIRMAN. The correction may be made.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of
Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the
original.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, and take the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to
correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy,
was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that
correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and
advise us if it is correct?
Mr. KRIMER. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word
is "Declaration".
Mr. RANKIN. Will you note that correction, Mr. Krimer, please?
Mr. KRIMER. In pencil?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. KRIMER. Crossing out the word "application".
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. KRIMER. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a
translator note on here which states that since printed questions are
given both in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion
of the document is being translated.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into
English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them
with the interpreter, have you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you find the translation is correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian
communications, and the English translations.
The CHAIRMAN. The documents may be admitted with the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the
Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you
were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And about when did you do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. What is the date of that letter?
Mr. RANKIN. March 8.
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New
Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order,
I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you discuss that idea with your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were
at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of
March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one
or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were
inviting you to live with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but I didn't have any such letters and I did not
enclose any.
Mr. RANKIN. You never did send such letters to the Embassy, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have
further correspondence with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from
the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I remember that.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the
translation.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit
them personally?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy,
dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is a second request to visit the Embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. Correct.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter
from the Embassy together with the English translation.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and
received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. We will now recess for lunch.
The Commission will reconvene at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will convene.
Mr. Rankin, you may continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and
ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation.
Mrs. OSWALD. The translation is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter,
and the English translation.
The CHAIRMAN. The documents are admitted under that number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in
Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Is that No. 12?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it is.
Mr. RANKIN. And is it in your handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't.
Mrs. OSWALD. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New
Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11--Exhibit
No. 11?
Mr. RANKIN. June 4, 1963.
Mrs. OSWALD. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Referring to an application by your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And was an application for your husband for a visa included
or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he
who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know
whether it was there or not.
Mr. RANKIN. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into
the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a
letter that you had written?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether
his application was included because he handled the mailing of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my
presence. But it is Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she
will know the contents.
Mrs. OSWALD. Why "separately"--the word "separately" here is underlined.
Mr. RANKIN. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it
before, I guess you cannot help us.
Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his
visa be handled separately from yours?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that
you are referring to--that is the word that you asked about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee?
Mr. RANKIN. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it
was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by
the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do
with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining
it.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be
considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate
matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do
consider it separately.
Mr. RANKIN. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit
14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that
before.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation in English?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is all right.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and
the English translation.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have
planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange
for you and your daughter to go back?
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps.
Because he planned to go to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to
Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see
me.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember
having seen that before.
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that
exhibit?
Mrs. OSWALD. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it
translated.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer?
Mrs. OSWALD. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he
did want to go to the Soviet Union--but now I am lost, I don't know.
Because--perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business,
perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is
not too polite, in my opinion.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this
letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a
little clearer what it is all about--if you could have a moment or
two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the
examination.
Mrs. OSWALD. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth.
Mr. RANKIN. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs.
Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I
don't know what he was typing.
Mr. RANKIN. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring
to, when you say Ruth?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it
is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope
for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that?
Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I
did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on
the envelope--whether it is November 2 or November 12?
Mrs. OSWALD. November 12.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that
Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then this must be 12.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the only way you can determine it, is it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this
letter, Exhibit 15?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told
you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where were you when he told you about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband
present when he told you about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just
what he said about the trip at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I
don't remember any more about it.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time----
Mrs. OSWALD. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that
I did not want to, and he said, "Okay."
Mr. RANKIN. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you
about the trip to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to
Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to
make secrets of things.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this
letter of November 8, Exhibit 15?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he
got that name from.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his
visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about
the trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he
told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him,
welcomed him there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant
when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless
he used a real name, so he returned to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about
going to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. He never told you anything of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas,
and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his
apartment--Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And
then when he moved, he left me another phone number.
And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned
him and asked for him by name--rather, Ruth telephoned him and it
turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned
me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was
unknown at that number.
Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me
to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book,
but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a
phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?"
He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of
the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel.
I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his
foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to
me why he was so secretive all the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an
assumed name at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real
name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been
in Russia and that he had been questioned.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he
lived.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where
he lived?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and
he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his
employment.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in
Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that
he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but
more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think
that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that
this would help.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the
Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't understand the question.
Mr. RANKIN. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned
to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Why hadn't he planned that?
Mr. RANKIN. That is what I am trying to find out from you.
Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to
visit the Soviet Embassy, did he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he
planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with
the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet
Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to
Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia
and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very
changeable.
Mr. RANKIN. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that
he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned,
and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete
our business."
Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the
Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby
would be able to get to Cuba.
Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not?
Mr. RANKIN. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of
Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he
had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been
able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had
to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all.
Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba--that the only
legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet
Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the
Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba.
I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't
think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite
involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is
clear to you or not.
Mr. RANKIN. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it.
I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you
anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to
contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee
wanted to get to Cuba by any means.
Mr. RANKIN. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy
was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that,
I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington
know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and,
therefore, was unprepared.
Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the
Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving?
It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal
thing.
Mr. RANKIN. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he
got back?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico
City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the
Embassy in Washington.
Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved
thoughts of Lee.
I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that
matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to
Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for
that purpose.
Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban
Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know
what he meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. What regulations--what are the regulations?
Mr. RANKIN. I am trying to find out from you.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached,
or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned
from his trip and told you about what happened there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has
since been replaced."
Do you know whom he was referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person
to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't
understand anything, either.
Mr. RANKIN. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal
Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the
progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was
secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside
in that state."
Do you know why he would say anything like that to the Embassy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because he was crazy.
He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary
of any--he was not a secretary of any organization.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the
Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is
telling about here?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us
here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"--do you
know whether there was such a visit by that man?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P.
Hosty?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone
number, but it seems to me that his name was different.
Mr. RANKIN. After you received the telephone number, what did you do
with it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn,
passed it on to Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything
with it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he
did with it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to
Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to
call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it
down?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty
"warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will
again take an 'interest' in me."
Do you remember anything about anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has
in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was
talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this
is another agent, not the one who visited us.
But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your
husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in
Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know that.
Mr. RANKIN. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also
'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United
States under FBI protection."
Did you ever hear of anything like that before?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time.
The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of
difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force
me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with
him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But
they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under
their protection.
Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means
by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the
Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like
that to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one said anything like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United
States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United
States?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an
agent for that government, or any of its agencies?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I
and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI."
Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said
that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very
exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a
protest. This was simply a request.
Mr. RANKIN. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you
to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one
asked you that, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No one ever asked me.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission
in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed
more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that
you have not already told us?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this
letter I have told you.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I
cannot.
(Brief recess)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the
translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of
your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help
from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course my husband.
Mr. RANKIN. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to
return to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is
nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I
felt very lonely--since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this
would be the best way.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the Spanish language?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps five words.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you given it any study?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and
I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never
did.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would
sit down with the textbook and look at it.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen
that before.
Mrs. OSWALD. May I take it out?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of
Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I
helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words.
Mr. RANKIN. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting
on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lee's
handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it
at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. About when did he start?
Mrs. OSWALD. In August, in New Orleans, 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at
that time or thereafter?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was in September.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the
study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or
after that date?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit
17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked with the next number and received in
evidence.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material
evidence--the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the time that your husband came back from
Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought
back with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag
with a zipper, blue in color.
Mr. RANKIN. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he
brought back with him from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you
at the Paines?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed
overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or
Friday evening. And he remained until Monday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip
to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to
get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more
because he had run into, as he himself said--into bureaucracy and red
tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how he treated you better?
Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me more--although he always did help. But he was
more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with
me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and
he was in somewhat an elated mood.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned
from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money
he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it a small or a large amount or do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large
amount for you.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had?
Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary
sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring.
Mr. RANKIN. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which
he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in
Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't
know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time
in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. In what sense do you mean "lived with"?
Mr. RANKIN. I mean roomed in her home.
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. That was a place on Marsallis Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him
home. By bus.
Mr. RANKIN. You said before that you learned about the depository job
at some neighbor's home, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In whose home was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine
house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember.
Perhaps later I will.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that
was a guest there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps you know the name.
Mr. RANKIN. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a
number of names, but not by the location.
Mrs. OSWALD. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman
there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the
depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.
Mr. RANKIN. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked
at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mrs. Randle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention
it.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know such people.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I
don't think he was 18 yet.
Mr. RANKIN. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the
neighbor's house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into
Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring
Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did he take him, ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. 8 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he take him on Monday morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came for a weekend, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. At 5:30 on Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, only during the last week when all of this happened
with reference to the assassination of the President--he came on a
Thursday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband
getting this job at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect
connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor
and mentioned that Lee was out of work.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had
a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that
Lee come there on the following day.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the
following day?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them,
and he telephoned that he had already received the job.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the
job?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three
days before he got the job and started, or more than that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he started on the day following being
accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th
of October.
Mr. RANKIN. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he
call you and give you the number there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious
name?
Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, or the number that he gave you--that is the rooming
house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us
you called there.
Mrs. OSWALD. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It
was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know
what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned
him.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second
place, when you did call him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that
time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say
that. I read that in the paper.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave
you when you called and he answered the telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name
he lived there.
Mr. RANKIN. But you found out that he was not living under his own
name, is that what you meant before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday
or Saturday?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday.
He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed
overnight from Monday until Tuesday.
Mr. RANKIN. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine
the rifle in the garage at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was
wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the
blanket?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I
was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that
it was a rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.
Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the
depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he come home Friday or Saturday?
Mrs. OSWALD. On a Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October,
did he tell you he was going to change his room?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the
depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was also $1.25.
Mr. RANKIN. About how much a month did it run?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was $210 to $230.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the hours that he worked?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that--it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m.
to 5 p.m.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he work the weekend or any overtime?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. It does happen in that depository that they work
overtime. But he did not have to work any.
Mr. RANKIN. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at
Irving, did he call you from time to time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Daily, twice.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the
telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when
someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke
Russian--then he would try to speak in English.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you
from Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady
heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because
she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's
birthday?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. On October 18th.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband,
Michael.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I
now remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he bring him home that weekend?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which.
Mr. RANKIN. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going
to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been
going to the garage and practicing with his rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the
Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home,
he tried to spend as much time as he could with me--he would watch
television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our
things that were there.
Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know when he went there what he might have
done with the rifle? Is that what you mean?
Mrs. OSWALD. At least I didn't notice anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have described your husband's----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to
practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the
garage.
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the back
porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he
did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the
rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back--during those
times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in
the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time--not often.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for
your baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. Very well.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband go with you at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June
because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He
wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way.
Mr. RANKIN. After the baby was born, did he come and see you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to you about the baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. Every father talks a lot.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about the baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. About me and the child--he was very happy. He even had
tears in his eyes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from
work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was
doing.
Mr. RANKIN. And those conversations would be reported to you by the
nurse, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned
to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and
asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband
had called.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your
husband return to Irving that weekend?
Mrs. OSWALD. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this
was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the
occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee
didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come.
This was one occasion.
The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I
remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not
come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel--that incident
with the fictitious name.
No, I am confused.
It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that
girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere.
Mr. RANKIN. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and
they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each
time when he did come and when did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that
he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the
birthday?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not
come home that weekend.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you
learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy
Roberts?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with
Michael Paine in October of 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
It seems to me--I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It
seems to me that this was the birthday--it was after dinner. They
talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got
together and went to some kind of a meeting.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand
anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the weekend of October 25th?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the
week after that, the following Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you
all day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere
else.
Mr. RANKIN. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted
to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you
if there was any time that he could have left to have that done.
Mrs. OSWALD. How is it about the telescope? He always had the
telescope. Were there two?
Mr. RANKIN. We are trying to find out.
Someone says that they mounted a sight.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people
talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a
telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we
want to check with you.
When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he
drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone
else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come
to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his
sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know
that this boy did not come to get him that day.
Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into
Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I
don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on
that day.
Mr. RANKIN. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October,
that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like
to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine
in your presence or with you.
Do you recall one on October 29th?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted--she
talked to them.
Mr. RANKIN. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the
FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And would she at the same time answer things in English,
too, herself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. So, in effect, the FBI was----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me--she loves to talk.
Mr. RANKIN. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to
some extent, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs.
Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty
and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and
I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of
the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at
that time, other than just a greeting.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs.
Paine about you or your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially
interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to
understand. But she told me that in general terms.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone
number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the
November 1 interview when that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify
that for us, and tell us what it is.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's notebook.
Mr. RANKIN. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18?
Mrs. OSWALD. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many
different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this
notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address
in this notebook.
This is mine.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us--is it a long notation by you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in
Minsk while I went on vacation.
Mr. RANKIN. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's
handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. The majority, mostly.
Mr. RANKIN. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the
notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in
your husband's handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is
noted down by others.
Mr. RANKIN. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of
notes?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. He started it in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And there are a number of notations that were made after
you returned to this country, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with that number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there.
Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't
know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up
in the dictionary himself and translated it.
Mr. RANKIN. I would like to hand this back to you and call your
attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.
I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to
Agent Hosty.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number.
Mr. RANKIN. And the telephone number?
The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your
husband's----
Mrs. OSWALD. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name,
license number, and probably the address.
Mr. RANKIN. Are all in your husband's handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook,
Exhibit 18?
Mrs. OSWALD. After the first visit.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit,
November 1, with the FBI agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came
for a weekend, I told him about it.
By the way, on that day he was due to arrive.
Mr. RANKIN. That is on November 1?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30--comes from work at 5:30.
They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could
wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.
Mr. RANKIN. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of
the other man beside Agent Hosty?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't
remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name
and the date.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the
FBI agent and the interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that they had come, that they were interested
in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.
He said that he would telephone them--I don't know whether he called or
not--or that he would visit them.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now
I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else that happened in the
interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them
to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was
disturbing to us.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was more, but I don't remember now.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, during this period of time----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged
in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked
whether Lee was doing that here.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that question?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here.
This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked
about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews
or conversations with the FBI during this period?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw
them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had
told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building.
But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas
after he got his job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he was doing?
Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the
second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was
reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that
he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk
in the park.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that
he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my
requests.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week?
Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come
on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said
that that was because he wanted to visit another place--supposedly
there was another job open, more interesting work.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was
more interesting?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a
newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to
photography. And he went there in the morning and then--on a
Saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning.
Mr. RANKIN. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of
that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, before noon.
It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the
8th--elections--were there elections on that day?
Mr. RANKIN. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that
Saturday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and
buy a few things.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr.
Hutchison?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever shop there with your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. We never went just Lee and I.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the three of you--Mrs. Paine and you and your husband
go together to shop?
Mrs. OSWALD. And her children.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market?
Mrs. OSWALD. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he
received unemployment compensation.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this
market?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't have such a check.
Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that
size at this market?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when
Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a
check?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving?
Mr. RANKIN. It is in Irving.
Mrs. OSWALD. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have
been with him.
The CHAIRMAN. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn
now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)
_Wednesday, February 5, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard
B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs,
Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters;
John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with
the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English
language to some extent?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do
understand.
Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern
Methodist University. Is there anything to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by
anyone?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian
acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would
try to translate them into English.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume
you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for
you, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I
have not been in contact with any Russians.
Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you
have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI
agent or translator were present, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while
you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that
experience?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think.
At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who
do not speak Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when
you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take
it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service
people were there, too, were they not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly?
Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for
you as they did?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been
with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he
told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for
the Secret Service people to be there with you and that you liked
that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that
satisfactory to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader
of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my
situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very
badly and stopped me from doing something.
I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later
translated into English that all of this was not the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced
to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not
satisfactory to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to.
Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during
that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that.
Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were
willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?
Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they
couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to
someone during that period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Everything depended only on me.
Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see
someone, you were always able to do that, were you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend.
Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you
wanted to, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see
you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no
desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for
herself, rather than for me.
Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to
see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people?
Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried.
Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which
I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a
television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied
with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for
their attention towards me.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your
mother-in-law now?
Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police
station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was
always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.
I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of
everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the
press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I
think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think
that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies
with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should
have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership
on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I
do not want her to cripple them.
Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time.
Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I
visited there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She
didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused
the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.
Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have
you seen her since the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe
any difference in her attitude towards you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after
Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.
Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags?
Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met
with her every day I could see--I was able to see the change. At least
if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that
she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me.
There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone,
there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one
understood her.
Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with
her and to listen to scandals every day.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in
connection with the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything.
Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of
being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like
her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in
English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that
that would get across and I would understand.
Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you
thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us
what you meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish
interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that
anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the
press.
The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail
to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying
to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed
her children to look this way and look that way. And the first
photographs that appeared were of me with her children.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the
Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that
you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red
Cross before that date?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the
note?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all
countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help,
since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this
organization.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help
from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an
embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your
husband was referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to
the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss,
and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think
that you might have told. You have described that.
Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De
Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he
thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply
made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation
or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have
told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?
Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your
husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything
like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not
have confided such things.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the
Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the
money to repay that amount?
Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven
months we were paying off this debt.
Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period.
Do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange.
But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how
we existed.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle the finances----
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we were economizing.
No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me
money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together.
Mr. RANKIN. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy
what you needed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then did he give you any funds separately from that,
for you to spend alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it.
Mr. RANKIN. How much were those amounts?
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, I want to add something.
You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a
month--I forgot. Excuse me--I will do it today.
For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend
only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I
am not sick.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy clothing for yourself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would
occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for
me. But in America this is no problem.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone
buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around
undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2,
clothes for an entire season.
Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the
buying of that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to
us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought
some.
Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall
that that was a holiday?
Mrs. OSWALD. November 11?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not
celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were
elections.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a
Monday--refreshing your memory in that regard.
Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what he did during that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little
with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he doing any reading at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was
typing. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know what he was typing?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was the envelope----
Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified?
Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and
Kostin, it was that envelope.
Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't
remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings
it back.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas
to Irving at any time during that week?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend.
Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and
didn't come.
Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket
that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his
supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was
at work. He couldn't have been there.
Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI
and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend
your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of
November. Does that refresh your memory?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is,
he didn't come that weekend.
But on the 13th he was not in Irving.
Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to
refresh your memory again.
Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't
come--that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and
on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a
quarrel over the fictitious name.
By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had
wanted to come, he had telephoned.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming?
Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not
convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I
won't."
Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the
fictitious name?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I
hung up and would not talk to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to
an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now
this fictitious name."
I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people
were to find out that he had been in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a
Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the
landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it,
and when the landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told
Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to
me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from
some country other than Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can
even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for
me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not
be afraid or ashamed of it.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing.
Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name
Hidell?
Mrs. OSWALD. Where?
Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time.
Mrs. OSWALD. Where?
Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a
fictitious name given.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was
under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name?
Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used
this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such
organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I
laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it
would be discovered anyhow.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the
weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or
how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into
Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday
when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume
that. I cannot know it.
Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and
the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of
any other time your husband was using an assumed name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection
with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?
Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in
connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New
Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you
knew, while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they
spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the
arrest or after.
Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio
transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than
Oswald, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the
organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.
Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious
president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is
that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the
telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using
the bolt action that you heard from time to time.
Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say
that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and
clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time.
Yes--twice he did clean it.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens,
too, and sighting the gun on different objects?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know
exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I
just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?
Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the
porch there with the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband
call you at all by telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on
Sunday, and he was not there.
Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he
was known by another name.
On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and
didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on
Thursday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as
his last name?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before.
Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on
Thursday?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the
preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he
was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset.
I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of
time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He
tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not
answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because
this upsets him.
On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said
that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being
so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want
to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want
me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in
Dallas.
He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said
that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't
need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until
the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this
was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we
were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine,
because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something
for himself--that I would manage.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested
that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched
television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9
o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it
seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.
In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't
get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was
quite usual.
And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was
here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had
come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage
and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on
later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee
was in the garage.
But I didn't see it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in
the garage, what time of the day?
Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the
light remained on until morning.
Mr. RANKIN. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry
with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes
and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath.
Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now.
We will recess now for 10 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your
husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?
Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if
her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that
if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that
this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all
of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and
the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it.
Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't
wait to find out what else would he think of.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no
reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that
he was more important.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in
two or three days.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his
agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything
like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him.
But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.
Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your
husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you
give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach
any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had
come that this became more significant for her.
Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from
his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the
light?
Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during
the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At
least that is what she said to me. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went
to bed at 9 o'clock?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was
perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her
room and then Lee went. He was there after her.
Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and
10? Was that what you thought?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the
morning and turned on the light.
Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come
home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle
before that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the
rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.
But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when
the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it
was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and
the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the
garage where the rifle was located?
Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the
front part, the left.
Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on
the floor.
It was always in the same place.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were
some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the
kids used to play.
Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you
tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just
left there at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside
of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the
rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle
was taken. I only assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had
arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see
you Thursday was to make up?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with
me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not
irreconcilable.
Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you
learned since. Is that it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you
and your husband getting along quite well?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get
some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked
this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted
to get something better.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his
work in the newspaper he would always point it out.
Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot".
Do you know what he meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he
didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid
woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine
was coming between him and you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she
thought. But she didn't say anything bad.
Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me.
She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.
Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not
really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was
urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child
going, but also his going with you, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time--I don't remember whether he was working at
that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing
something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said,
"It would be better if I go with you."
Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I
came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course,
when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't
start to question him about why.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him
alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all
staying in this country and getting along together?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to
stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always
worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.
Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain
rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any.
Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he
didn't come--he was in jail.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him
to be more disturbed than usual?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that
quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened.
This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions,
just wanted to make up.
Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite
disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make
up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was
smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.
Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed
than usual?
Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when
he went to bed he was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination
the next day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think
that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went
off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I
thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I
didn't think about it. Now I think so.
Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did
you ask him why?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it
wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for
the weekend.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans
to do anything?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the
Paines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet
in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but
I never counted it.
Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was
in the wallet?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me
whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I
hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told
me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June--and for the
children.
This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put
the rest in the wallet.
I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was
not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had
earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we
received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid
only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was?
Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and
he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.
Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in
the evening meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert.
Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive.
The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that
there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30.
Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for
breakfast ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is
all.
Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron
in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.
On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were
describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about
President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort
Worth area?
Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would
speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see
him. I asked him how this could be done.
But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any
further on that subject.
Mr. RANKIN. Had there ever been----
Mrs. OSWALD. This was also somewhat unusual--his lack of desire to talk
about that subject any further.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you explain that to us?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think about it more now.
At that time, I didn't pay any attention.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you think it was unusual? Could you explain that?
Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely
gave me--said something as an answer, and did not have any further
comments.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of
that kind and show considerable interest?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and
where this would take place.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest
at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I merely shrugged my shoulders.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion
between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or
reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy
on that evening, of the 21st?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said
anything against President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember any--ever having said that. I don't know.
He never told me that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything good about President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were
generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion.
I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his
fortune by a not very--in a not very good manner. Disposing of such
funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and
to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for
themselves.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his
fortune?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to
what extent that is true.
Mr. RANKIN. When he read these articles to you, did he comment
favorably upon President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that he would translate articles which
were good, but he would not comment on them.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall----
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at
the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it.
I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had
wanted to kill Kennedy--because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps
he wanted to kill him.
Mr. RANKIN. Why did you not believe this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from
Lee. And he never had anything against him.
Mr. RANKIN. But you also say that he never said anything about him.
Mrs. OSWALD. He read articles which were favorable.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say he approved of those articles?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own
conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them.
Mr. RANKIN. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or
disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In
my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed
me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening
before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening
before the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Absolutely nothing in common.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was
contemplating the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening
with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the
kitchen. At one time when we were--when I was together with him they
showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them
with interest.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We
were Strangers" that involved assassinations?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would
remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a
president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban
dictator.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee saw those films.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he had seen them?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was with him when he watched them.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the
date of the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that this was before Rachel's birth.
Mr. RANKIN. Weeks or months? Can you recall that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Several days. Some five days.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your
husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba,
which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious
situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual
situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. Did either of you comment on either film being like the
attempt on Walker's life?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't watch the other film.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an
assassination could be committed like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest,
but I didn't like it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else he said about either of these
films?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked
to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more.
Mr. RANKIN. By Ruth, you mean Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. They spoke in English.
Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And did Mrs. Paine tell you what he said to her at that
time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw
the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned
way of assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any
time about Governor Connally?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that
time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he
asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because
at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic--honorable
discharge--but that it had been changed after it became known he had
gone to Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you
understand it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he
said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities.
That was all in Russia.
But here it seems he had written again to that organization with
a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are
bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he wrote again?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that letter written from New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and
how, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a
dislike for Governor Connally?
Mrs. OSWALD. Here he didn't say anything.
But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that
Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would
return to the United States he would vote for him.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor
Connally then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your
husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of
that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your
husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he
left?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen
to see whether he had had breakfast or not--whether he had already left
for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there.
And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had
coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some
instant coffee.
But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning.
Mr. RANKIN. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did
he get up and go without speaking to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy
everything, and said goodbye, and that is all.
After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his
wedding ring.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had
left, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that
morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether
it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now
forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already
gone.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that
morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the
Paine's residence or garage?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a
sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for
lunch? Do you know?
Mrs. OSWALD. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know
whether he would go home or not.
Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that
way before?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was
inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would
remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring
was rather wide, and it bothered him.
I don't know now. He would take it off at work.
Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that
he had ever left it at home where you live?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with
him when he left the house on November 22nd?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small
package.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some
container?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up
on November 22d?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that
Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and
she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all
morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her
pajamas and watching television with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband
examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did
in connection with the Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn of the shooting of President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was
already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I
went to my room and cried.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been
involved?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your
husband being involved?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from
the building in which Lee is working."
My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle
was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said,
"Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the
world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather
upset at that time--I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition.
I didn't know what I was doing.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position,
and it appeared to have something inside.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle
was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, only once.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to
see if the rifle was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't know about the rifle.
Perhaps she did know. But she never told me about it.
I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket?
Mrs. OSWALD. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a
rifle, and I said "Yes."
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the
garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it."
They opened the blanket but there was no rifle there.
Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that,
while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee
had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was
always under suspicion.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that--he was always under suspicion?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the FBI would visit us.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they indicate what they suspected him of?
Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't tell me anything.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to the police when they came?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember
what I said.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding
ring that morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, because I didn't know it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you
thought was in the blanket?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it seems to me I didn't say that. They didn't ask me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the
rifle was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine also watch them?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me, as far as I remember.
Mr. RANKIN. When the police came, did Mrs. Paine act as an interpreter
for you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not
being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She
very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police
and then told you what she had said?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did she tell you that she had said to the police?
Mrs. OSWALD. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when
they were addressing her.
But when they addressed me, she was interpreting.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered
the wedding ring there at the house?
Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then
everything got mixed up, all time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the police spend considerable time there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the names of any of the officers?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. How did they treat you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me.
I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to
the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to
change.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what could I tell them?
I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They
kept on saying, hurry up.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they want you to go with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you leave the house with them right soon after they
came?
Mrs. OSWALD. About an hour, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. And what were they doing during that hour?
Mrs. OSWALD. They searched the entire house.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they take anything with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--everything, even some tapes--Ruth's tapes from a tape
recorder, her things. I don't know what.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they take many of your belongings?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my
business. If they need it, let them take it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they give you an inventory of what they took?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You have never received an inventory?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you now know what they took?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am
missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring.
Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing?
Mrs. OSWALD. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was
left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it.
Mr. RANKIN. What documents do you refer to that you are missing?
Mrs. OSWALD. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth
certificate, my wedding certificate--marriage certificate, June's and
Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from
friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing--photographs, whatever
has some reference--whatever refers to the business at hand, let it
remain.
Then my diploma. I don't remember everything now.
Mr. RANKIN. What documents of your husband's do you recall that they
took?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time
I have none of Lee's documents.
Mr. RANKIN. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have
are similar to your own that you described?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor
cards. I don't know what men here--what sort of documents men here
carry.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is now 12:30.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we will recess now for lunch.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may
continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to
be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4,
1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that.
Mrs. OSWALD. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me
that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with
congratulations on the October Revolution--on the date of the October
Revolution.
Mr. RANKIN. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any
other letters.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be in the record and given the next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated
that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and
that she might have--did have information in that regard.
Do you know anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. The first time that I hear anything about this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know----
Mrs. OSWALD. That is all untrue, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent
of the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the
Cuban government at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any
agency of the United States Government?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any
government?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your
husband to kill the President?
Mrs. OSWALD. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the
events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way,
whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding,
that he would be known in history.
Mr. RANKIN. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the
President, for this purpose?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is.
Mr. RANKIN. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think
he had the same motive or purpose in doing that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any
way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about
the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d,
following his arrest?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the 22d I did not see him.
On the 23d I met with him.
Mr. RANKIN. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your
request or his?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I
wanted to see him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d,
after his arrest?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And what answer were you given at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was not permitted to.
Mr. RANKIN. Who gave you that answer?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The police.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what officer of the police?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the
assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after
returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs.
Paine, together with Lee's mother.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that
time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after
the assassination, did you have a conversation with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And where did this occur?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the police department.
Mr. RANKIN. Were just the two of you together at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, the mother was there together with me.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. You probably know better than I do what I told him.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to
us, Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry,
that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children
were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't
know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York
before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything
of that. It was simply talk.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that the police had been there and that a
search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a
rifle, and I had answered yes.
And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned
it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer.
Mr. GOPADZE. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first
evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she
didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her
constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything
she didn't want to--at that time, she told me she knew about that, that
she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to.
Mrs. OSWALD. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?"
And then I understood that he knew about it.
Mr. GOPADZE. At that time I did not know.
Mrs. OSWALD. I thought you had been told about it because the
conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I
was talking to Lee--after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a
theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was
recorded.
Mr. RANKIN. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying.
As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents
after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't
have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that
correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.
Mr. RANKIN. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what I told him.
Mr. GOPADZE. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that
she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to.
I said, "That is right."
Mrs. OSWALD. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself
as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because
I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him.
Mr. GOPADZE. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission--I
would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI
agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I
introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI
in some way, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been.
Mr. RANKIN. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was----
Mrs. OSWALD. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was
with them.
Mr. RANKIN. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that
you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband
was guilty in regard to the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't
want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed
President Kennedy, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't
know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life
some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult
to believe in that.
Mr. RANKIN. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived
at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Unfortunately, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And you related those facts that you learned to what you
already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and
appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police
station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer
Tippit?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and
everything will turn out well."
After all, I couldn't accuse him--after all, he was my husband.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that I should not worry, that everything would
turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather,
he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that
he was afraid.
This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw
in his eyes that caused you to think that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said
that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself.
Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I saw it in his eyes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was
responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. After Kennedy--I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me
anything, and I didn't see him again.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do
with the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to
escape after the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him about that.
Mr. RANKIN. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did
anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be
shot?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d?
Mrs. OSWALD. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life
Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be--in a
hotel--but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many
people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in
Dallas, but I don't know the name.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's mother.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--June and Rachel.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Robert with you at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. I saw Robert in the police--at the police station, but he
did not stay with us at the hotel.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's
house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life
reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what
had happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs.
Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know
what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to
talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and
said I should not talk and that she would not talk.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say why she would not talk?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She
talked to the reporters.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to
tell any story?
Mrs. OSWALD. She has a mania--only money, money, money.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine
about something concerning the interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled
about, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. And after the quarrel, did you leave there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the
photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he
had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the
President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it
to anyone.
On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had
two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the
photographs when she suggested that?
Mrs. OSWALD. She saw it, while I was destroying them.
Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the
Secret Service ask you many questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular
questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents
of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of
course--many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions
which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer
they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to
help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is
the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the
FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission
in order to stay in this country, don't you, now?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission
here in order to be able to stay in the country.
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that.
Mr. RANKIN. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you
could about this matter, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret
Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the
matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading
up to it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and
the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI
agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff
question in a polite form.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this
period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of
that office. At least he was a representative of that office.
Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it
seems to me.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not
committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right
to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the
questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if
I were to help them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this
country. I understood it that way.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with
deportation if you didn't answer these questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way.
You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a
clear implication that it would be better if I were to help.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you----
Mrs. OSWALD. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it
was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I
sensed that.
Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to
work in this country if you cooperated?
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law
enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell
the Commission about?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that
after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this
country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a
very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They
cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever,
contrived way.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that
you felt treated you in that manner?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was
very attentive towards me.
Mr. RANKIN. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your
husband was killed?
Mrs. OSWALD. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in
Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the
Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had
promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to
me, and Gregory--no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert,
and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel,
we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were
supposed to go to the police station to see him.
Mr. RANKIN. That was on November 24th, on Sunday?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things
or perhaps--in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike
Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today.
At first he said that it wasn't serious--perhaps just not to frighten
me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was
told that he had been seriously wounded.
Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the
chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I
wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to
prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring.
Soon after that--Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there,
and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had
died.
After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed
for several days--perhaps two weeks--I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your
husband had been shot?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. And where were you at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was in a car.
Mr. RANKIN. Just riding around, or at some particular place?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not at two o'clock--earlier. Lee was shot at 11
o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one.
Mr. RANKIN. And where was the car that you were in at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route from the hotel.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after you went to the motel?
Mrs. OSWALD. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral.
Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent.
Mr. GOPADZE. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a
headache.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will recess.
(Brief recess)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed
now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about
his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether
in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection
with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to
escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety.
Mrs. OSWALD. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of
becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of
a man to try and escape.
Mr. RANKIN. You will recall that in the interviews, after the
assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do
it, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that.
You must understand that now I only speak the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill
President Kennedy.
Mrs. OSWALD. I now have enough facts to say that.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about
when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President
Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little
more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was.
Mr. RANKIN. You have stated in some of your interviews that your
husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you
recall when this happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it more than one occasion?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he said that, that was only once.
Mr. RANKIN. And do you know what caused him to say that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some
happening that caused it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some
particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this
case?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and
many acquaintances.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be
so decisive about the case?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any
English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have
when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we
lived in New Orleans?
I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything.
Perhaps she does have something.
But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something
that might reveal, uncover this.
Mr. RANKIN. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your
mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so?
Mrs. OSWALD. Never.
I don't want to see her, I didn't want to.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences
between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing
you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might
be helpful to the Commission to know that background.
I hope you will bear with us.
Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning
her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to
her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my
mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better
terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why.
I don't think that she can help you.
But if it is a formality, then, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your
differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those
differences?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know
anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in
everything, that she knows more.
This is what our differences are.
Mr. RANKIN. And have you responded to her when she said those things?
Mrs. OSWALD. She said this by means of newspapers and television.
I haven't seen her.
I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that,
because she would scratch my eyes out.
Mr. RANKIN. Are there any other differences between you and your
mother-in-law that you have not described?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, there are no more.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in
excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work.
Is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money
that he had from any source?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover
agent for the FBI.
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for
the CIA at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you
ever known of him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the
killing?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent
nightclubs, as the papers said.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He
didn't drink. Why should he then go?
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned.
Mr. RANKIN. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me.
Mr. RANKIN. And do you know any reason why he should?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person
at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper
now, it is an abnormal face.
Mr. RANKIN. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you
can recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he
killed Lee.
I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze.
The CHAIRMAN. You may.
(Brief recess)
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your
testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I
will tell you why I left the room.
I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is
not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I
have not mailed it yet, to the attorney--to the prosecuting attorney
who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even--that
if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the
widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should
be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the
capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and
that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I
do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be
believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby,
and that I wanted to protect him.
It is simply that it is pity to--I feel sorry for another human life.
Because this will not return--bring back to life Kennedy or the others
who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not
have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps
they will pay some attention to it.
That is all.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been in nightclubs.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know where it was located before your husband was
killed by Jack Ruby?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know it now either.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or
left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed.
His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and
mother both write with their left hand.
And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be
subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ.
Mr. RANKIN. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death
penalty imposed?
Mrs. OSWALD. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing.
In my opinion, it is not so.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything more about the assassination of President
Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about
proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the
Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know that.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia,
and ask you about that for a little while.
Can you tell us the time and place of your birth?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the
Arkhangelskaya Region.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were your parents?
Mrs. OSWALD. Names?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, please.
Mrs. OSWALD. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a
laboratory assistant.
Mr. RANKIN. And your father?
Mrs. OSWALD. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him.
Mr. RANKIN. Who did you live with as a child?
Mrs. OSWALD. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my
grandmother--grandmother on my mother's side.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to
live with your mother and your stepfather?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately
five years old.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you moved to live with your mother and your
stepfather, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that in Leningrad?
Mrs. OSWALD. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After
the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we
returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother--also
with my half brother and half sister.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's business?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have brothers and sisters?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How many?
Mrs. OSWALD. One brother, one sister--from my mother's second marriage.
Mr. RANKIN. How old were they?
Mrs. OSWALD. How old are they, or were they?
Mr. RANKIN. Are they--I mean in comparison with your age. Were they
three or four years older than you?
Mrs. OSWALD. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is
probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother
and sister.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know that he was not a member.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you live for a period with your mother alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my
stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle--my mother's
brother.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's name?
Mrs. OSWALD. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you leave the home of your stepfather?
Mrs. OSWALD. In 1961. No--1959.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your grandfather's occupation?
Mrs. OSWALD. On my mother's side?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. He was a ship's captain.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He died shortly after the war.
Mr. RANKIN. Which war?
Mrs. OSWALD. Second.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along well with your grandparents?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was their favorite.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along with your stepfather?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the
war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot
of food, and we lived very well.
After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were
dekulakized subsequently.
By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked
with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard
that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent
somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very
cold.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother have any occupation?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, laboratory assistant--I said that.
Mr. RANKIN. Was she a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when your mother died?
Mrs. OSWALD. In 1957.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How much was it?
Mrs. OSWALD. All children received pensions.
We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that called a children's pension?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18.
Mr. RANKIN. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was paid to me directly.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your stepfather adopt you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not adopted.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you
get along with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I loved them very much, and they loved me.
Mr. RANKIN. And your half sister, too?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what schools you went to?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in
Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied
in a pharmaceutical institute--pharmaceutical school, rather than
institute.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was the pharmaceutical school?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Leningrad.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go through high school before you went to the
pharmaceutical school?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?
Mrs. OSWALD. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school,
Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already
forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they
helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they
approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that
nature.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you a good student?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying.
You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved
me. My language, you know--I talk a lot, and get a good grade.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you work part-time while you were going to school?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not
enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did you do in working?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom.
This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.
And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted,
and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a
pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think I received 36 per month--this is new rubles--at
that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three
times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large
restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all
sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who
always saved something for me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you save any money while you were working before you
graduated?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you work after you graduated?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather
didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would
marry again, and, therefore, I left.
But he hasn't married up until now.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my
diploma?
I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me
a new diploma?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you--the Commission
hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that----
Mrs. OSWALD. They should have treated it a little more carefully,
though.
Mr. RANKIN. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't
our action.
Mrs. OSWALD. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my
teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry--it is a pity
for my diploma.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission
to the school?
Mrs. OSWALD. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date
of issue and the date of graduation.
Mr. RANKIN. Isn't there a place for admission, though?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, there is a place for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you were admitted to the school?
Mrs. OSWALD. In 1955.
Mr. KRIMER. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not
for a full date.
Mr. DULLES. 1955, did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1955.
Mr. RANKIN. In this job that you obtained after you left the school,
what were your duties?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I worked in the pharmacy?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions.
After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and
the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book,
and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again
transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and
get the job? How was that arranged?
Mrs. OSWALD. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was
sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not
very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a
warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have
changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to
guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work
somewhere else.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in this first job?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was there for three days, which is a probationary
period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his
duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there.
I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference
which I received after I was going to the United States was not very
good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was
going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be
that a good worker could leave.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You were not assigned there, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go
to and work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you
cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there.
But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the
right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be
permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then
they may register, such as Minsk.
Mr. RANKIN. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place
like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is, registered in the police department.
Mr. RANKIN. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a
job, is that what you mean?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to
Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to
be registered in Leningrad from some other point?
Mrs. OSWALD. First you must have relatives who might have some spare
living space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that.
You know money does a great deal everywhere.
Mr. RANKIN. And then after you have shown that you have a place to
live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to
have something else?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in
Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.
Mr. RANKIN. But since you were registered there, you could have found a
position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk
instead of staying in Leningrad?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family
circumstances.
What can one do?
It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather.
Mr. RANKIN. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home
that you sought some other city in which to work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did
not have enough money to pay for an apartment.
I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed
there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little,
which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it
is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would
pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to
work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the
normal workday is only 6-1/2 hours, because they consider that to be
hazardous work.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad?
Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean by social life?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening,
pleasant times?
Mrs. OSWALD. An awful lot.
Mr. RANKIN. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you
enjoyed it there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a
vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay there on vacation?
Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I
spent in Leningrad with some friends.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the rest home?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able
to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the
people there to register you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle.
Mr. RANKIN. And were you registered there then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. Forty-five, as everywhere.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that per week?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is a month. That is not America.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that 45 rubles?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Per month?
Mr. DULLES. Old rubles or new rubles?
Mr. RANKIN. Is that old rubles?
Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles.
Mr. RANKIN. What were your hours in this work?
Mrs. OSWALD. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m.
Mr. RANKIN. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean
to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a
big city or a small city?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you
work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military
hospital--there the pay is higher.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Preparation of prescriptions.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or
did you just put them up yourself?
Mrs. OSWALD. I prepared them myself.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a supervisor?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I
was responsible for it.
Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not
prepare medications--he is only an administrator.
Mr. RANKIN. How many days of the week did you work on this job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I
didn't work.
Mr. RANKIN. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the
hospital?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for
friends, or somebody would ask us.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying
there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. They had--they were well provided for, and my uncle
wanted that I spend the money on myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this uncle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of his work?
Mrs. OSWALD. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the
Byelorussian SSR.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have something to do with lumbering?
Mrs. OSWALD. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry
institute. Technical institute.
Mr. RANKIN. Is he an officer?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, very nice.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a telephone in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for
the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you save money?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in
one day--three days tops.
Mr. RANKIN. What would you spend it for?
Mrs. OSWALD. First all the necessary things which I had to buy--shoes,
an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to
wear warm clothes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is a Communist.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in
Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the
Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why you were discharged?
Mrs. OSWALD. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they
didn't know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that
I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United
States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had
anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views
because you married an American?
Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't say that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had
them?
Mrs. OSWALD. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the
Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small
official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I
think it was sort of insurance.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of
the Comsomol?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you attend?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--I
was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper,
Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly--for
what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the
paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."
But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to being removed from the
Comsomol?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any social clubs there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any culture groups?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. After you came to the United States, did you correspond
with some of these friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were
generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we
made later.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life there at Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties
or to the opera or theater, or what?
Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course
we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a
restaurant.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Lee Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And
there I met Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?
Mrs. OSWALD. On March 4th.
Mr. RANKIN. What year?
Mrs. OSWALD. 1961.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you meet him?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes--but can you tell us the place?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the Palace of Trade Unions.
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are
public meetings?
Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is
also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for
parties.
Mr. RANKIN. They have dances?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did someone introduce you to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who introduced you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had gone there with my friends from the medical
institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. What was his name?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yuri Mereginsky.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work,
because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was
easier--this was easier.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language
is concerned?
Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first
met him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end
of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that make any difference?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet
Americans very often.
Mr. RANKIN. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of
times?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him?
Mrs. OSWALD. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me
again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the
Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and
he was there.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given
him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me
from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from
the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I
should come there, if I could.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn what was wrong with him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems
that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being
there alone.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you observe a scar on his left arm?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were
married.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out about that scar?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked
me never to ask about that again.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn what caused the scar?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found out here, now, recently.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some
time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out now.
Mr. RANKIN. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk
about America at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you recall that he said about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he
was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said
that his home was warmer and that people lived better.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about returning?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then? No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe the life in America as being very
attractive?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he----
Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was
saying good things about America.
Mr. RANKIN. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you find out anything about
his plans to return to America?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything before you were married about the
fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the
United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him
whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he
said no, he could not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had
arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would
not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would
not forgive him such an act.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would
like to go to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what attracted you to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. First, the fact that he was--he didn't look
like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very
polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it
seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when
he was courting you?
Mrs. OSWALD. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was he living at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had
dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful
balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it
would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I
never thought that I would wind up living there.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his
apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. We had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and
bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he paid for rent?
Mrs. OSWALD. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles
per month.
Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was cheap.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, in that city they have good apartments because the
houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot
compare it to private houses people live in here.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an automobile?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is
difficult to have an automobile.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a television set?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--I don't like television.
Mr. RANKIN. Why?
Mrs. OSWALD. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get
into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the
movies.
Mr. RANKIN. What was his occupation at this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his work was?
Mrs. OSWALD. As an ordinary laborer--metal worker. From that point of
view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that
many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main
thing.
Mr. RANKIN. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments?
Mrs. OSWALD. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in
which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment
for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living
conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had
been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have
obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would
have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat
foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated
Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say whether he liked this job?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't like it.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He
didn't like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?
Mrs. OSWALD. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he
liked it or not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they
joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain
better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with
the Soviet system?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was
interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist
camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his
own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is
being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among
the masses and see.
But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we better adjourn now for the day.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Thursday, February 6, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron
Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel;
William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M.
Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again.
Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time
that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love
Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he
had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later.
Mr. RANKIN. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the
rifle there, as you understood it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired
it. But I didn't see him.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after
he came back, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition
around the house at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you
lived?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and
pistol ammunition?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol
ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated
the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?
Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad.
Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?
Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any
time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of
these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about,
and make fun of him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he react to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He became very angry.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make
fun of his ideas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband
was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his
childhood?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs,
where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army--there is
a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his
childhood?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he
was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and
Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted
to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't
get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it.
Mr. RANKIN. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he
had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he
tell you much about what he did?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very
much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with
the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He
said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance
to go out.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of
time?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee
whether he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to
question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said
that I should not question him about it.
After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth,
that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't love her?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother
Robert at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded
fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having any affection for him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married
Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had
made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of
Pic--I guess the last name was Pic--Robert Pic?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from
his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It
is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name.
He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife,
but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He
said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as
high for the work he was doing?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met
him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he seem to get along with these friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had a very good relationship with them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss any of them with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us when you married your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. April 30, 1961.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there a marriage ceremony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called
Zags, where we were registered.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present at the ceremony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, our friends were there.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My
uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there
for that reason.
Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's
apartment there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was your baby born?
Mrs. OSWALD. February 15, 1962.
Mr. RANKIN. What is her name?
Mrs. OSWALD. June Lee Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you return to work after the baby was born?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you and your husband get along during the period
that you were in Minsk, after you were married?
Mrs. OSWALD. We lived well.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a membership booklet?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, a booklet.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade
union booklet that you had there.
Mrs. OSWALD. I never have a good photograph.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay dues to the trade union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this
booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I forgot to paste the stamps in.
Mr. RANKIN. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't
seem to be in there.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. But you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps
in, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the
stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the
payment.
Mr. RANKIN. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather
than 1941. Do you know how that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was
older and put down 1940 instead of 1941.
Mr. RANKIN. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk.
Do you know why that would occur?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that
you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities
while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not at all--absolutely not.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization
there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as
everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a
hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he go hunting while he was there?
Mrs. OSWALD. We only went once, with him and with my friends.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels?
Mrs. OSWALD. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting
for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel
when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it,
but they didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after
your marriage that you didn't know where he went?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go
back to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we were married, perhaps a month after.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the matter at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't discuss it--we talked about it--because we
didn't make any specific plans.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said about it then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it
doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in
connection with your plans to go to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We went to the American Embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that?
About his passport?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the
following morning I was to come there.
Mr. RANKIN. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this
trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket
and he made the flight.
Mr. RANKIN. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to
go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow.
Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the
Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the
authorities.
Mr. RANKIN. When the decision was made to come to the United States,
did you discuss that with your family?
Mrs. OSWALD. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would
come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to
talk about it for the time being.
Mr. RANKIN. Later, did you discuss it with your family?
Mrs. OSWALD. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out
about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended
because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were
trying to arrange to go to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to
your going to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There
were difficult times.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol.
This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then
all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various
organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for
a long time.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was all because you were planning to go to the
United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment
because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your
leaving?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
What?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were
hospitalized for?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am
nervous now, too.
Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I
was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was
pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had
a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though
he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you
were doing?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an
assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no
sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy.
Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist.
Was that something different?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first I was--I have to call it--an analyst. My job was
to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for
an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of
a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book
that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist.
Mrs. OSWALD. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the
pharmacy."
The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant."
These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher
than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other
is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was
no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but
not in the sense of a grade of service.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute
photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs
of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals
will be held subject to the further order of the Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That may be done.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being
prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that
perhaps he might even be arrested.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the
United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. The United States.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited
your husband while you were trying to go to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961?
Mrs. OSWALD. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to
come there for a rest because I was on vacation.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone go with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay?
Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you write to your husband while you were gone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mikhilova, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and
not with your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He
wanted to go with me, but he could not.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United
States?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your
husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, and what did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would
not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your
visa?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we
moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy.
Mr. RANKIN. How long were you there on that trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the
Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated--all
medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we
would be in first place.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his
expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that
records your military status.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is
an indication there "non-Party member".
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces
of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you
were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to
stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why----
Mrs. OSWALD. Many were surprised at that--here and in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to
Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent to Minsk.
Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean by direction of the government?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet
Union that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic
copy of the diary that you have just referred to.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't
understand it.
Is that all? It seems to me there was more.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we
have received. There are some other materials that I will call your
attention to, but apparently they are not part of that.
I offer in evidence Exhibit 24.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that
everything that Lee had written?
Mr. RANKIN. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that
apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard
to the time he was in Russia.
Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing
it daily or from time to time--how it was made?
Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would
not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity
that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter
read it to you later, so you will know what is in it?
You may, if you wish.
Mrs. OSWALD. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps.
The CHAIRMAN. You may see it any time you wish.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any
reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no
reason.
The CHAIRMAN. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it.
Mr. THORNE. Thank you.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was
complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are
going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that
may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us.
Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote
on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having
seen that.
Mrs. OSWALD. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in
it. I didn't know this was a diary.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what it was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more
accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was
aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the
paper itself and the handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in
savings when you left Moscow for the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much
money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend
everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300
rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you travel from Moscow to the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told you--from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany,
and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to
Dallas by air.
Mr. RANKIN. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder
if it wasn't the SS _Maasdam_. Does that refresh your memory?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is
a strange name.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for
Polish money during this trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in Warsaw, on the black market.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy food there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Some good Polish beer and a lot of candy.
By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to
get it. More than the official rate.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband drink then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he
doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at
any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet Intelligence people?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did
you observe any indication of mental disorder?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in
the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have
any here.
Mr. RANKIN. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the
United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days, it seems to me.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Walked around the city, did some sightseeing.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anybody visit you there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What hotel did you stay in?
Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where
they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American
Embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you paid in the way of rent?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, Lee paid it. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the
ship?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to
walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other
girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and
they have different games there. I don't know what he did there.
Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line
stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations.
Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is time for a recess.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess now.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
We will continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading
in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in
the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for
reading purposes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else.
Mr. RANKIN. No library books?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was very hard for him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union
that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 26 and ask you if you can tell us what
that is.
Mrs. OSWALD. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for
those who are departing for abroad. Personal data--name, last name,
date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married
or not, and purpose of the trip."
Mr. RANKIN. What does it say about the purpose of the trip--do you
recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. Private exit.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to
there under that question?
Mrs. OSWALD. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled
out--this was before June's birth.
Mr. RANKIN. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like
your uncles or aunts, or anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 26.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall
what that is.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior
to departure for abroad.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 27.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they
asked for close relatives?
Mrs. OSWALD. It must be shown there. I don't remember. Probably my
uncle.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this
exhibit, No. 27?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. You say it is all your handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 28 is?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same thing. This was a draft.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean a rough draft?
Mrs. OSWALD. A rough draft of the same thing.
Mr. RANKIN. And the other one is the final?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't
know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These
are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph.
Lee and I were playing.
Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are
drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We were playing dominoes, and this is the score.
Mr. RANKIN. I ask that Exhibit 28 be received in evidence, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 29 and ask you if you can tell us what
that is?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a residence permit, passport--a passport for
abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you had six months in which to
leave under that passport?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed
to go abroad.
Mr. RANKIN. Whose handwriting is in Exhibit 29?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who
issue the passport.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 29.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid
until January 11, 1964?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I
received this one in exchange was valid until 1964.
Mr. RANKIN. You had a passport prior to this one, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you obtained that before you were married?
Mrs. OSWALD. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a
passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would
help the Government more.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your
husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things
would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about
the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. The problem of unemployment.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?
Mrs. OSWALD. I already said what he didn't like--that it was hard to
get an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his
political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the
government here?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical
exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock.
You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to
introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up
our record.
When we finish with those, I think your testimony will be completed.
And I think we should finish today.
You won't be unhappy about that, will you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may
continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a
considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to be
helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her
counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as
the case may be.
And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask
Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the
writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits
30 through 65, inclusive.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 30 is a telegram from a former fiance's mother.
Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the
name of Ella Soboleva.
Exhibit No. 32 is a letter from the Ziger family, who are friends.
Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the
family's.
Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States
by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who
received it. It is merely some material that she has.
Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter
which is not shown.
Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one
that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30.
Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the
hospital, during the birth of June Lee.
Exhibit No. 38 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, a friend.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone
else?
Mr. THORNE. This is what I understand--prior to her relationship to Lee.
Exhibit No. 39 is another letter from Ella Soboleva.
Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in
the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby.
Exhibit No. 41 is a letter from her Aunt Valya.
Exhibit No. 42 is a letter from their friend Pavel.
Exhibit No. 43 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never
finished.
Exhibit No. 44 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never
finished.
Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who
sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38.
Exhibit No. 46 is a letter--is another letter from Aunt Valya.
Exhibit No. 47 is a letter from a friend by the name of Tolya.
Exhibit No. 48 is an address of one of Marina's friends.
Exhibit No. 49 is Marina's draft of a letter to the consulate.
May I see Exhibit 49? I am trying to clear up a point.
Mr. DULLES. What is the date of that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is not a letter. That is an autobiography.
Mr. THORNE. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography
for the Russian Consulate.
Exhibit No. 50 is a letter from a friend Erick Titovetz.
Exhibit No. 51 is another letter from Aunt Valya.
Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the
hospital with June Lee.
Exhibit No. 53 is Lee Harvey Oswald's writing.
Exhibit No. 54 is a letter from a friend, Laliya.
Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she
was in Kharkov.
Exhibit No. 56 is the same.
Exhibit No. 57 is a letter from Aunt Valya.
Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she
was in the hospital with June Lee.
Exhibit No. 59 is the same.
Exhibit No. 60 is the same.
Exhibit No. 61 is the same.
Exhibit No. 62 is a letter from Anna Meller, who lives in Dallas, to
Marina.
Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she
was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee.
Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald--is a letter to Lee
from Erick Titovetz.
Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the
exhibits.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30
through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that
your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he
came to this country, do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that
diary were made each day as the events occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not each day.
Mr. RANKIN. Were they noted shortly after the time they occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that
Lee wrote that in Moscow.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the entries concerning what happened in Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. He wrote this while he was working.
Mr. RANKIN. And you think those entries were made close to the time
that the events occurred?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning
the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some
time while he was in Minsk, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, but I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and
live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent there because this is a young and developing
city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed
personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it
had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been
destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk--it was
easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There
are many immigrants there now.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there many Americans there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we
knew many. Many Argentinians live there--comparatively many.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow
before he went to Minsk and what he did there?
Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said
that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums,
that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to
live in Moscow.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or
television at Moscow?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was on the radio.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when
he asked for Soviet citizenship?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say
anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their
failure to give him citizenship?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee
wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been
refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he
said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore,
I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship--but that he
didn't want it.
Mr. RANKIN. What diary are you referring to that you read?
Mrs. OSWALD. The diary about which we talked here previously--in the
preceding session.
Mr. RANKIN. The one that was completed in Russia that you referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first read that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English.
But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that
diary.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was after the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a
period of time you had to wait before it could be official?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you file an application and then have a period to wait?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How long was that period of waiting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ten days.
Mr. RANKIN. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this
American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the
marriage?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are
going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at
them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you
to comment on them.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee when I was in the hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. What exhibit is that?
Mr. THORNE. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various
miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit.
Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't
know that I was in the hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. By "he" do you mean your husband Lee Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did he not know that you were in the hospital?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and
I was taken to the hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. And what time was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning, about 10 a.m.
Mr. RANKIN. I mean about what day or month or year?
Mrs. OSWALD. September 1961.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that before you went to Kharkov?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about
that time you were in the hospital.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was there twice.
Mr. RANKIN. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you
went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inesse Yakhliel.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 67?
Mr. THORNE. No, sir, these are all part of Exhibit 66.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because
you won't be able to find out what they are in the future--A, B, C, D,
or something of this kind.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or
however they run?
Mr. Thorne, when you say the first one marked "A", will you make it
clear what that is?
Mr. THORNE. The exhibit marked "A"--let me hasten to point out that
all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting
individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on.
"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in
this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit
66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper.
Exhibit B was the second piece of paper that was identified by Mrs.
Oswald.
I believe this is the third.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inessa Yakhliel.
Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as C.
Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope of a letter that Lee wrote me, to Kharkov.
Mr. THORNE. That is identified as Exhibit D.
Mrs. OSWALD. From Inessa Yakhliel.
Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit E.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Inessa Yakhliel.
Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit F.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee.
Mr. THORNE. Identified as Exhibit G.
Mrs. OSWALD. From my Aunt Luba.
Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit H.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Lee.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit I.
Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are
sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of
Exhibit 66.
Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I
don't mean now.
The CHAIRMAN. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she
desires connected with her testimony.
Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 67.
Mrs. OSWALD. A photograph of Galiya Khontooleva.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably
need to be identified as A and B.
Let's identify A.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving--to
the home of Mrs. Paine.
And this is a letter from the mother, Lee's mother.
Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is
composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A----
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when
I lived with Ruth Paine.
Mr. THORNE. And Exhibit 69-B?
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from a girl friend from Russia, Ludmila Larionova.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 70, a postcard.
Mrs. OSWALD. From my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 71. Two envelopes. 71-A----
Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth
Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine.
Mr. THORNE. That is Exhibit B.
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter to me.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 72 is a writing. In Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he
wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was
refused.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified
as----
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a
certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit B?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Anna Meller's address and telephone number.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 74?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think
in Moscow--the State Library.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 75 contains a writing and an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Galiya Khontooleva, and an envelope.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with
an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in
Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who
was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter.
These are all his letters.
Mr. THORNE. This is three pages of one letter together with the
envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages--two
separate pages of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Galiya Khontooleva, and the envelope.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages
of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Ruth Paine to New Orleans.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 79 contains an envelope and one page of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Pavel Golovachev, from Minsk.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 80, two handwritten pages.
Mrs. OSWALD. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much
money I had received through them.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 81 contains one page of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. The same.
Mr. THORNE. By the same, you mean what?
Mrs. OSWALD. A receipt for the receipt of money through the FBI.
Mr. THORNE. Are these donations?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 82 contains a page in handwriting.
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 83 is a photograph.
Mrs. OSWALD. The son of Ludmila Larionova.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 84 contains an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. Simply an envelope.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 85 contains an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote to me in Kharkov.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 86 contains an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. From Titovetz, a letter from the Soviet Union.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 87 contains an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 88 contains an envelope and one page of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ella Soboleva.
Mr. THORNE. And the letter arrived in the envelope?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 89 contains one sheet of writing.
Mrs. OSWALD. Also from Soboleva.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 90.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think from Ruth.
Mr. THORNE. This contains several pages--several sheets--three sheets
which seem to be one continuous letter.
Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth Paine.
Mr. THORNE. A three-page letter. Exhibit No. 91 contains an envelope.
Mrs. OSWALD. From Erick Titovetz.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 66 through 91, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and
your client has identified them?
Mr. THORNE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66
through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various
writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what
each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please?
Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 92, which is a writing, a photocopy of a
writing.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize that exhibit, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More
correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it.
Mr. RANKIN. So you don't know what it purports to be, I take it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. That is, you do not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize his handwriting throughout?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in
English. This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in
English.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 92.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92
purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the
Soviet Union.
The CHAIRMAN. The one that was dictated to the stenographer?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is right.
Mr. REDLICH. He had had written notes, and she transcribed them.
Mr. THORNE. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages,
handwritten, in English.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your
husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers.
I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 93.
The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 93 may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit
93 purports to be a résumé of his Marine Corps experience, and some
additional minor notes.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting,
which is in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. It is Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 94.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. Do we know what that is?
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book
about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting,
typewritten words, which are in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you
identify the handwriting on that?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part
of his papers and records?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps I saw them, but I don't remember them.
Mr. RANKIN. But you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting
appears?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 95.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten
and in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark
forest, a heap of papers.
Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in
evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also
material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia.
Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96--do you
recognize the handwriting on those pages?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is all Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 96.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on
"The New Era."
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed
and in writing, handwriting.
Mrs. OSWALD. It is amazing that Lee had written so well.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do.
Mr. THORNE. This is also in English.
Mrs. Oswald, you state he had written so well. By that you mean what?
Mrs. OSWALD. Neatly. And legibly.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 97.
The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 97 may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 98 is three photocopy pages of handwriting in
English.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.
Mr. THORNE. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party
in the United States by Lee Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 98.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 98 purports to be notes for a speech.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 99 is one photocopy page of handwriting in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.
Mr. THORNE. Is this Lee's handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 99.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages,
of handwriting, in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am
sorry, but I don't know what it is.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 100.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be
answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he
is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and
handwritten in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 101.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to
his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 102 is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in
English.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. I don't know what it is.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 102.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that
Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of
handwriting, in English.
Mrs. OSWALD. From the address I see that it is a letter--it is Lee's
letter, but to whom, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 103.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the
fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee
Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall
referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect--had
such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this
earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language
that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The
comparison is most illuminating.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 104 is photocopy pages of a small notebook.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my notebook, various addresses--when I was at the
rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances.
Mr. DULLES. Is this in Russia, or the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 104.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is a notebook----
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 104 purports to be a small notebook of Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing
various writings in English and in Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he
made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.
Further, I don't know what he had written in there.
Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to.
Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted
that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I
don't know what this means.
Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do
you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Now I see it.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105.
The CHAIRMAN. That will be received.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the
Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can
complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits
for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think
you will want to examine some of it very closely.
I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech.
One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the
idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin
American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an
idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization
has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With
its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered
across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at
least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very
long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition."
Then there is an insert I have difficulty in reading.
"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small
size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary.
Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a
rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to
the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman
when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'"
That indicates some of his thinking.
The CHAIRMAN. We will just take a short break.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 106 for identification is a notebook.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book, some poems by ----
Mr. THORNE. It contains handwriting in Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to write that, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of
poems. And I made a copy.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 106.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some
writing in Russian on it.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's pass from the factory.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 107.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with
handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page.
Mrs. OSWALD. These are the lyrics of a popular song.
Mr. RANKIN. A Russian popular song?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is Armenian--an Armenian popular song.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 108.
The CHAIRMAN. It is admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 108, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 109 is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both
sides, an original.
Mrs. OSWALD. This was simply my recollection of some song lyrics and
the names of some songs that people had asked me.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 109.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 109, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 110 is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting
in Russian which seems to be interpreted in English below it, together
with a little stamp. I can explain the stamp. It says FBI Laboratory.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is when George Bouhe was giving me lessons. I
translated from Russian into English--not very successfully--my first
lessons.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 110.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 110, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. When was it that George Bouhe was teaching you English and
you wrote this out?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was in July 1962. I don't remember when I arrived--in
'62 or '61.
Mr. RANKIN. Is the handwriting in Exhibit 110 in the Russian as well as
the English in your handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. The Russian is written by Bouhe, and the English is
written by me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make the translation from the Russian into the
English by yourself?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I had to study English.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a dictionary to work with?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. So you were taking a Russian-English dictionary and trying
to convert the Russian words that he wrote out into English, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 111 is a book written in Russian, a pocket book.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book,
Exhibit 111?
Mrs. OSWALD. Letters?
I see that for the first time.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Probably Lee was working, but I never saw that. I don't
know what he did that for.
Mr. RANKIN. You never saw him while he was working with that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would have shown him if I had seen him doing that to
my book.
Mr. RANKIN. You know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out
letters that way and putting them together to make words.
Mrs. OSWALD. I read about it.
Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen him do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 111.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 111, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 112 is an apparent application--an applicant's
driving record.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this.
Mr. THORNE. It is in English.
Mr. RANKIN. That is not your driving record, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it was your husband's?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. THORNE. May I clarify the exhibit? It is an application for a Texas
driver's license. Standard form application.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 112.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 112, and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. It is quite possible that Lee prepared that, because Ruth
Paine insisted on Lee's obtaining a license.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear her insist?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She said it would be good to have.
Mr. RANKIN. And when was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. October or November.
Mr. RANKIN. 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. '63.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 113 is a driver's handbook published by the State
of Texas.
Mrs. OSWALD. We had this book for quite some time. George Bouhe had
given that to Lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 113.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 113, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Was your husband able to drive a car?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think that he knew how. Ruth taught him how.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a driver's license that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
This is a Russian camera of Lee's--binoculars.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 114 is a leather case containing a pair of
binoculars.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as
Exhibit 114, before?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We had binoculars in Russia because we liked to look
through them at a park.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband used them in connection
with the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. He never said anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 114.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 114, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 115 is a box containing a stamping kit.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's. When he was busy with his Cuba, he used it.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean when he was working on the Fair Play for Cuba, he
used this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 115.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 115, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. How did he use that kit in Exhibit 115 in connection with
his Fair Play for Cuba campaign?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed
his address.
Mr. RANKIN. And he used this kit largely to stamp the address on the
letters?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not letters, but leaflets.
Mr. RANKIN. He stamped the address on the leaflets?
Mrs. OSWALD. Handbills, rather.
Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills,
too?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What name did he stamp on them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he use the name Hidell on those, too?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. Perhaps.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 116 is a Spanish to English and English to Spanish
dictionary.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came from Mexico City I think he had this.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 116.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 116, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 117 is one sheet of paper with, some penciled
markings on it.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the writing on that exhibit?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 117.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 117, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 118 is a clipping from a newspaper. There are some
notations on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing that clipping, Exhibit 118, before?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. As far as it is visible, it is similar to Lee's
handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 118. The CHAIRMAN. 118 may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 118, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I call attention to the members of the Commission that
Exhibit 118 has a reference to the President, with regard to the
income tax, and the position of the Administration as being favorable
to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the
income tax.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 119 contains a key with a chain.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what this is a key to.
Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be a key to a padlock. Do you recognize it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can see that it is a key to a padlock, but I have never
used such a key.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen your husband use such a key?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember what key he used. I know he had a
key.
(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 119 for
identification.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 120 purports to be a telescope--15 power telescope.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen such a telescope.
Mr. RANKIN. You never saw it as a part of your husband's things?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
(The article referred to was marked for identification as Exhibit No.
120.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 121 is a Russell Stover candy box filled with
miscellaneous assortment--medicines of all kinds.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us in regard to that Exhibit 121?
Are those your medicines or are those your husband's?
Mrs. OSWALD. These are all my medications.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 121 and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 122 is a cardboard box containing an assortment of
items.
Mrs. OSWALD. These are all his things. I think he used this to clean
the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. You are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband
used to clean the rifle, as you remember it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How often did he clean it, do you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not too often. I have already told you.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 122.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be received.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 122, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 123 contains seven small one ounce dark brown
bottles.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's brother is a pharmacist. He gave this to us.
Mr. THORNE. As well as the apparent boxes that they came in.
Mr. RANKIN. Which brother is a pharmacist?
Mrs. OSWALD. Murret.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean his cousin?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. In the Russian the word cousin is second brother.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 123.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 123, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 124 is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a
4- or 5-inch blade.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this knife.
It is a new knife. And that telescope is also new.
(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 124 for
identification.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 125 is a file cabinet for presumably three by five
or five by seven inch cards.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee kept his printing things in that, pencils.
Mr. RANKIN. The things that he printed his Fair Play for Cuba leaflets
on?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Pencils and materials that he used in connection with that
matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any index cards in that metal case?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to them?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was on those index cards?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. A list of any people that you know of?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Were those leaflets about Fair Play for Cuba printed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then did he stamp something on them after he had them
printed?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would print his name and address on them.
Mr. RANKIN. I will offer in evidence Exhibit 125.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 125, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to the cards that were in that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 126 is a small hand overnight bag, canvas zipper
bag.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handbag, and he arrived with it from Mexico
City.
Mr. RANKIN. It is one of the bags that you described when you were
telling about his bringing one back from Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. He only had this one.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 126 was the only bag that he brought back?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 126.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 126, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 127 is a suitcase.
Mrs. OSWALD. A Russian suitcase.
Mr. RANKIN. You have seen that before, have you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took Exhibit 127 to Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know, or you don't think he did?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he did not take it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he used Exhibit 127?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he would have used it.
Was this taken in Lee's apartment?
Mr. RANKIN. We cannot tell you that, Mrs. Oswald. We don't know which
place it was taken from.
You have seen it amongst his things, though, have you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think these things were in Ruth Paine's garage.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it is his or Mrs. Paine's?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is my suitcase.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you use it to come from the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. THORNE. This is not Lee's suitcase, then--this is your personal
suitcase?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Ours, or mine.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 127.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you need that? That is hers. She may want it. Do you
think we need it?
Very well. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 127, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 128 is a Humble Oil and Refining Company courtesy
map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the markings in ink,
in the area where the assassination took place.
Mrs. OSWALD. This map Lee acquired after returning to Irving. Before
that, he had another map.
That doesn't tell me anything. I did not use this map.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see your husband use it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that this was in his apartment, where he
lived. Perhaps he used it there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him put those markings on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have never seen him use this specific map. Possibly
he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because
this was the place where he worked, I don't know. He had a habit to
note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map
there is in your husband's handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't look like his handwriting.
(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 128.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 129 purports to be some type of an official
document in Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is my birth certificate.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than
presumably the one that was issued when you were born?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because mine was lost somewhere, and it was reissued.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to go there to get it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, simply write a letter.
Mr. RANKIN. And they mailed it to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer that exhibit in evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 130 seems to be an original instrument in Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary
issues.
Mr. THORNE. Whose certificate?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mine.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 130.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 131 is a one-sheet document in Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. The same thing.
Mr. RANKIN. Why did you have these other copies?
Mrs. OSWALD. These documents were needed for regularizing all the
documents in connection with the trip abroad.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July
19 on them?
Mrs. OSWALD. In which?
Mr. RANKIN. In the original.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see that.
It says July 17, 1941. The certificate is issued July 19, 1961.
Mr. KRIMER. The transcript shows 17th of July 1941.
May I explain it, sir?
Mr. RANKIN. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are
explaining it correctly.
Mr. KRIMER. I have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct.
This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the
register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in
the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer that in evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. That will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope.
This is written in Russian.
Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from
Golovachev. I simply kept them together.
Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that
letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain
to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is
contained in words"--and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by
that?
It says "Now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." Who is Paul?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it
is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying
Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's
play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia,
and there is a film. I helped him with it.
Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that has nothing to do with the
assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 132.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 133 contains two photographs.
These are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol.
Mrs. OSWALD. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at
first glance. But they are different poses.
Mr. RANKIN. You took both of those pictures, did you, in Exhibit 133?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And are those the pictures you took when you were out
hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of
him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. With the pistol and the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 133.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were
taken before or after the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Before.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of one of these
pictures--what purports to be an enlargement.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your
husband has a newspaper, it appears.
Mr. DULLES. I think in both of them.
Mr. RANKIN. I want to correct that.
In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the
newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you
know what newspaper that is?
Mrs. OSWALD. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a
paper that is--whether it is Communist, anti-Communist.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you
took these photographs?
Mrs. OSWALD. About two weeks.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134,
made by you, or by someone else?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know who made the enlargement.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen Exhibit 134, the enlargement, before this?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know
whether this is the one I have been shown.
Mr. RANKIN. Who showed that to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Apart from Mr. Gopadze, somebody else showed me an
enlargement.
Mr. RANKIN. Does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I think it was specially enlarged for the
investigation.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit No. 134.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper.
It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is
the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an
enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post
office box 2915, Dallas, Texas."
And it is marked, "One--quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel,
29.95," and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 136 is a camera contained within a leather case.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a Russian camera.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have
referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera
or this.
Mr. RANKIN. But this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras?
Mrs. OSWALD. My husband's camera.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 136.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for
identification.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera.
It is an Ansco flash attachment.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 138 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you
referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this Ansco flash equipment an attachment for that
camera?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. It seems to me that it is new.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 139.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 139.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 140 apparently is a blanket.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that
blanket.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the
rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for
the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was
covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places
where you lived?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 140.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that June played with this blanket, Exhibit 140?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a
balcony, for example, when June was playing on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that in this country or in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't crawl yet in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. What balcony was that--what house?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas.
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 141 is an envelope that contains a bullet.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your
husband had?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think Lee's were smaller.
Mr. RANKIN. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to
think it was the same?
Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see his?
Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans, and on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. In the box, or laying loose some place?
Mrs. OSWALD. In a box.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 141.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 142 is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper.
Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't brown before.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see that before?
Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't
know--I have never seen it.
Mr. RANKIN. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to
get fingerprints.
Did you ever see anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody sees such paper. But I didn't see that with Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen anything like that around the house,
then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. We have wrapping paper around the house.
Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was
apparently made up into a sack or bag.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like
that, to hold a rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for
identification.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 143 is a pistol.
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald's.
Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that as a pistol of your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 143.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 144 is a leather pistol holster.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a holster for Lee's pistol.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures
that you took?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures?
Mrs. OSWALD. As much as I can tell.
Mr. RANKIN. At least they appear to be, as far as you can tell?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two
bullets, .38 caliber.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the
bullets that your husband had for the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand
about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid.
Mr. RANKIN. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your
husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at
Mrs. Paine's?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Mrs. Paine's I never saw any shells.
On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar--New Orleans. It looks like it.
If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 145.
The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and
received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. We will be in order, please.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to
this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you
about it, please?
Do you know the shirt that Lee Oswald wore the morning that he left?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. What else interests you? What do you
want?
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on
this desk belonged to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. These are Lee's shoes.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say the shoes, you pointed to Exhibit 149?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. This is a pair of shoes of which Exhibit 149 is a
photograph.
Mrs. OSWALD. These are his bath slippers.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 148 are his bath slippers?
Mrs. OSWALD. Japanese bath slippers. These shoes I have never seen.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 147, you say those are shoes you have never
seen?
How about Exhibit 146?
Mrs. OSWALD. These are his, yes. These are all Lee's shirts.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, 151----
Mrs. OSWALD. These are his pajamas.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, and 151 are Lee Oswald's shirts, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 152 is a pair of his pajamas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 153--you recognize that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is his shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 154? Is that one of his shirts?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 155?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, also. Why is it all torn?
Mr. RANKIN. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some
of these.
Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit--the shirt that I
point to now, the morning of the 22d of November--Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was a dark shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that was the one?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 156. Is that a pair of his
pants?
Mrs. OSWALD. These are his work pants.
Mr. RANKIN. And 157?
Mrs. OSWALD. Also work pants. These are all work pants.
Mr. RANKIN. 158?
Mrs. OSWALD. Why were both of those cut? I don't understand.
Mr. RANKIN. I have not been informed, but I will try to find out for
you.
Mrs. OSWALD. It is not necessary.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the
morning of November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was
dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on.
Mr. RANKIN. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as
Exhibit 157, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about Exhibit 159, a sweater?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was my gift to Lee, a sweater.
Mr. RANKIN. 160?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. 161?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater.
Mr. RANKIN. 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. 163?
Mrs. OSWALD. Also.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was
wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit
163?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22,
1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see
him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to
say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something
that he put on in your presence at any time that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.
Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't observe it on him at any time, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that
morning without your knowing about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you
tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at
that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he
was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you examine the collar on the shirt?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. It has a mark "Brent long tail sanforized."
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is
also his.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was
wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164
as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and
recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to
164, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents
under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed
any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not
presented here?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me.
Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few
questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to
you.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked
you, but I would like to ask it again.
I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that
your husband killed President Kennedy.
Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes.
Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the
assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you
ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards
President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in
killing President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came
to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to
get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation
of some of the documents, I think that there was some political
foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware.
Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in
concert with someone else?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone.
Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action
alone, that he was influenced by no one else?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a
Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a
Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?"
Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more
conscious than the Communists in Russia.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the
usual sense of the term?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his
ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him
normal.
Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you
consider him mentally sound?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his
capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he
was not a man deprived of reason.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask?
Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's
thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my
opinion.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you
may have answered--because I have been out at times.
I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed
opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or
economic system, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction
with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not
enlighten me as to his political thoughts.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your
presence that the economic system of the United States should be
changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it
followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose
any methods.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that
the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of
our country were changed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any
particular official of the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know
whether you could call him an official.
Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him
hostility towards President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr.
Frazier?
Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier.
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work.
Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your
husband any hostility towards President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Senator COOPER. That is all I have.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to
ask?
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has
kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing,
these hearings the last 3 days.
Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any
other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the
act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish
something?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish,
because I don't understand him.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further?
Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was
assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a
number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a
rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And
he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him
holding the rifle and the holster.
Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee
Oswald killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with
your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did
you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other
than your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no
organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there.
Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia
when he was in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative
witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for
doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go
through.
Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth.
The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you
have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but
only to report to the world what the truth is.
Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have
testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think
was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it,
you may do so.
Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English.
The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out
something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel
free to do that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it.
The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more
questions about something that develops through the investigation,
would you be willing to come back and talk to us again?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it
is, you would be willing to come, would you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that
if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be
called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr.
Thorne.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure.
Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We
appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come
to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would
feel free to communicate with us.
Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time?
Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing
statement.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you
would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may
do that.
Mr. THORNE. There are none.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne
has been very helpful.
Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of
me to make before this Commission.
You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two
that need to be covered.
To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and
members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the
consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these
proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make
her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and
tragic events we have been discussing.
Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission
that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on
down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to
Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient.
The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be
given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive,
and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her
identification and examination.
Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters?
Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits.
And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under
protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the
assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The
Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this
matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given
her.
I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I
don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels
the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she
can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide.
She is not afraid.
She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her.
And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part
she wants to get rid of them.
I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being
guided. She feels she can find her way by herself.
And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't
know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has
suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter,
of course, that ought to be considered.
But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like
to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection.
I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with
Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It
has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house
is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house.
This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the
Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in
terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held
back.
Is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said.
Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to
live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done,
as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help
during these terrible days that she has been going through.
But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection,
except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs.
Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone.
And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the
attention of the Commission.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.
Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please?
For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal,
assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also.
I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least
temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms
myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of
Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some
sources.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would
be--and it would be the answer we would give--that Mrs. Oswald, in the
future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she
asks for.
Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we
are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted.
Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this
whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it.
Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir.
Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the
session, we will adjourn.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among
Americans I would find so many friends.
The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Monday, February 10, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B.
Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald;
and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.
Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we
convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. Oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do--so help me God.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.
Now, Mrs. Oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Doyle is representing me.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed,
was he not, at your request?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I asked to be represented by counsel.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed
to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the
Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt.
That is correct, is it not, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DOYLE. It is, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the
Commission, are you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, voluntarily.
The CHAIRMAN. You requested to do so.
In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own
manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because
we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like
first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you
have concerning this case.
You would like to do that, would you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Chief Justice Warren. I would like to very much.
However, there are three things that I have asked that should be
brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already
been granted--that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that
fact.
I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and
justice for all men, which is our American way of life.
My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours
time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board
that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being
represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented
by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the
privilege of being represented by counsel.
However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the
murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be
represented by counsel.
Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state,
that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the
papers--and I am assuming that this is correct--that Lee wanted to live
in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico.
I happen to know differently--because Marina has told me the first day
I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to
Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work."
So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina
said that--it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination.
All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of
different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true
that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to
Russia?"
And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a
true picture.
I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual
testimony.
Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But
that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget
something. And the counsel would know.
We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are
interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing
their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me,
gentlemen, they are not satisfied.
I can produce these documents for you.
They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides
should be heard.
I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true
conclusion. What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI
and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have--mainly, speculation
and opinion of other people.
Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses
that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to
those particular statements.
I implore you--I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son,
Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and
I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented
by counsel.
We have information pertinent to this case.
My daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified.
The things that came out in the paper--I know, I have documents. I am
not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements
that I say.
And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much
better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both
sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end,
as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and
there--you will have the other party's testimony.
Now, there is another----
The CHAIRMAN. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you,
first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It
is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone.
It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the
facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report--not as a
prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission--on the manner in which the
President came to his death.
We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who
are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and
let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the
Commission.
You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge,
or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect--to
any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity
to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the
Commission.
But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to
cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying--that
is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission.
But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing
upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same
opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will
give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present
his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also.
Now, you may go to your second point.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I am not finished with my first, please.
I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief
Justice Warren.
But there is one thing--and, of course, I will have to accept your
decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony
the way you have suggested.
However, I am not in agreement with you. One point I want to make clear.
We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina
or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the
pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr.
Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a
conclusion.
I am going to go back to Marina. As I say, Marina made her
statements----
The CHAIRMAN. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that
we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't
know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording
you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story,
in your own way.
Then we should know what questions we want to ask of you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that thoroughly.
But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and
I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies
to witnesses. They may forget to testify something that my counsel
has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it
graciously.
I want that for record.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state
that for the record.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please--I will
not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I
go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me.
I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings
stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service.
I make the statement perfectly plain. And so the documents stay with me.
Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every
original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them.
However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the
original returned to me.
I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour
or two, and then return them to me--if I am making myself plain.
I would like to request that, please.
The CHAIRMAN. We will accommodate you in that respect.
Mrs. OSWALD. Then I have one other stipulation or request.
When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that
possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege,
through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection
with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already.
And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about,
and there are some people involved.
I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be
subpenaed--not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit.
And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that
would make it necessary for her to be recalled.
I ask that that be granted.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of
subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you
may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical
to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to
determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be
sure of that.
Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate that.
The CHAIRMAN. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just
have to leave that to the Commission.
Mrs. OSWALD. You will give me the assurance that these people I name,
regardless of title--I am liable to name some very important people----
The CHAIRMAN. No, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't
know----
Mrs. OSWALD. I see no reason, then, for my testimony.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald--you cannot commit us to subpenaing
anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark.
You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be
improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The
Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to
protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this
matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission
that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a
way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally
proceed.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no
way--I cannot quote your words--intimidate me. But you did not include
my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And
I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we
can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy.
And so I would like my son--he is the main object of the Presidential
Commission, is he not, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this
Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of
President Kennedy.
It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation
against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different
proceeding.
We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this
matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in
serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sure, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be
fair to all concerned.
And I assure you that is our objective in the matter.
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be
fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very
fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied
that, I will--will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that
I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for
record.
Now, I am going to produce--and this will be a fact--and this is on the
basis----
The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have finished the three things that you are
talking about, and we are going to your testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And
I think it is very important to present a picture.
And then if you allow me these few minutes, I will be through.
Is that satisfactory, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the
power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the
facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called.
Now, here is an article in the Washington paper--and the date happens
to be torn off, but I can get it--that Senator John G. Tower had made.
And I have outlined here----
The CHAIRMAN. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald--before we get into any details of
this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission
will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask.
I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission.
The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it
subpenas and when.
Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering
if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the
Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony
and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence
that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or
the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be
done, if the facts she outlines so require.
The CHAIRMAN. She may be very sure of that, as I tried to tell her.
But the only thing--I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say,
"I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of
them."
Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the
Commission, and not in the province of a witness.
And I say that without any combative--not in a combative spirit.
Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it,
Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. And I appreciate the fact----
The CHAIRMAN. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we
propose to be fair.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very
aggressive person, as you know by now.
I would like--this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point,
and then I would be through, if I may.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mrs. OSWALD. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the
article is that he had received a letter from the State Department.
Now, I would like--I have information from the State Department, I have
documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and
contrary to Senator Tower's public statement.
And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State
Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is
contrary to what I have.
He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off,
because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not
help him--is what he said.
But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in
the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have.
Now, he claims--and if you would like to read that--and that is what I
was trying to bring out.
The CHAIRMAN. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the
Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts
considered.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most
graciously continue.
However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son,
because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may continue.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I will start----
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a
member of the Commission.
Now, Mrs. Oswald--Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from
this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and
tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get
them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your
request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats.
The CHAIRMAN. You may start to tell your story in your own way.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr.
Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so
is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first?
I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel
if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue
with the--whichever way you would suggest I do it.
Mr. RANKIN. If you could start out and tell us within the period that
Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about
it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters
later.
Is that all right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--anything is just fine. I am willing to help in
any way possible.
I wanted to state it clearly in the beginning.
I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee
would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York--on
June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse.
And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in
Fort Worth, Tex.
So I was not able to leave and meet Lee.
Robert, his brother, met him, and Lee went to Robert's home.
Approximately about a week later--I could not stand it any more--I
called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and
took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina.
Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't
look Russian. She is beautiful."
He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks
like an American girl."
I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social
function, a community function.
I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready--I was getting ready to
write a book on your so-called defection.
"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way,
asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating
circumstances at the time because of the defection."
He said, "Mother, you are not going to write a book."
I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now,
because, Honey, you are alive and back."
But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or
dead, and I planned to write the book.
"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and
Marina. It is my life, because of your defection."
He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could
kill her and her family."
That was in the presence of my son Robert Oswald and his wife.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about what date that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and--now,
I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on
June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So
I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from
New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to
Washington a few days.
But I have the letter stating that.
But I have no way of knowing.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that
he came back?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, approximately. That is correct.
So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home.
I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care
of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there
every day.
While I was there--Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and
Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald,
because of the cold weather in Texas.
So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for
baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions.
So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is
Latin, of course, that is universal."
So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation
while in the Soviet Union on his throat.
I am sorry--but all of the confusion of myself being there and the
daughter-in-law, the Russian girl--that was never gone into. That is
all I know.
But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert--that he had an
operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say when that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that was all that was said.
As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with
Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion.
Now, I left, and I went back to Crowell on my job.
While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And
I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship,
by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young
baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he
would look for work.
But I want you to know that immediately Lee was out looking for work.
And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made
the statement that he was writing a book.
You probably have that information. It was highly publicized.
I, myself, gave him the $10 that he gave the public stenographer.
I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my
daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had
more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have.
So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has
been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any
clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in
the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself,
bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and
my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness,
bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony.
Mr. RANKIN. What daughter-in-law was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a
schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina.
Mr. RANKIN. Is she married?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. She is a schoolteacher. She is single.
So that story there is incorrect.
So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my
mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As
you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with
another child.
So Lee immediately began looking for work.
So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I
could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented
an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit.
And Lee and Marina then came to live with me.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did they stay at Robert's?
Mrs. OSWALD. They stayed at Robert's approximately 2 or 3 weeks, sir.
So then they came to live with me.
While there, I said to Lee--I am ahead of my story.
Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts,
from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen
napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that
has a Russian Santa Claus on it.
I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to
return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as
far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts
that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she
would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know."
He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the
United States."
And that is all the information I ever got out of my son.
"Not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."
Mr. RANKIN. How did you get along when you were there together with
Marina and your son?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina
was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever
had. And Lee--I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for
work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And
I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was
helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina
would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the
baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and
comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia.
She knew--there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I
know Gregory Peck."
And she was singing Santa Lucia.
And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English,
she is singing Santa Lucia."
He said, "Mother, that is an international song."
Marina was very happy, and I was very happy to have the children.
And Lee desperately looked for work.
He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of
Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not
getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American
citizen, that they would not be able to hire him.
He met obstacles all the way.
This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an
interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs.
And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day.
And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks
later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort
Worth, which is a sheetmetal place.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son,
and the little baby----
Mrs. OSWALD. June.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Marina, and did she speak English to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would
say--and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand.
She would say--I would say, "Marina, you now nurse your baby."
"Yes, Mama. The time."
Or "No time."
With motions--"no time. Mama."
She spoke English.
Mr. RANKIN. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we
can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk
English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. She was in the process of learning. But she understood
more than she could talk.
And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and
understands French, that she had learned at grammar school.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know French?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. So you could not tell?
Mrs. OSWALD. I could not tell.
And I didn't think a thing of it.
And, of course. Marina and Lee spoke Russian all the time, even in
front of me.
And you asked about this time--it was a very happy time. They would sit
at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it
you are doing?"
Because they were always talking in Russian.
"Mother, we are playing a game which is similar to American
tic-tac-toe."
And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both
children--very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina
English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know
about Russia, in my home.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie
Manufacturing Co.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And then his first pay--he kept his first pay. And then the second pay,
he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and
approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and
approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work.
Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to
save money.
Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had
nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few
little things that I could help out with.
But Lee did have the first week's pay.
And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was
$59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a
nice neighborhood, convenient to his work.
But then that leaves the boy broke.
I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other
members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know
that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in
want. Marina nursed June.
Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone
into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they
were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no
milk for the baby.
I say Marina nursed the baby.
They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at
that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring
groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in
that respect.
They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I
brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave
them one.
And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the
kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail.
And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any
money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch
toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life
in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The
Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes,
could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that
interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the
way this Russian girl--and within a short time, then, this Russian girl
had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot.
And this all came out in the paper--that they supplied this to the
girl, because she was in need of these things.
I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a
baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United
States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have
been in that position.
So I think those things were immaterial.
The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have
interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should
have more than necessary.
And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He
was just starting to work.
This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian
friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have
publicly stated--a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine,
that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by
Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram--that has downed Lee for every way
possible.
So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and
didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or
Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir, none at all.
Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son,
and what I am saying about the playpen and so on.
Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there--they
left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they
moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all
these things were accumulated from Russian friends.
And no man likes other people giving--interfering in his way of living,
and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply.
This is a human trait, I would say.
Now, I want to bring this story up.
I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have
worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making
$25 a week, gentlemen--a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I
worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job.
Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was
treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided
to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I
have worked for $5 a week, living in the place.
So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and
that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with.
So then that leaves me broke.
So I gave up a job in order to help this girl.
So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin--we had no quarrels. This
month was beautiful. Marina was very happy.
I had the car and the television, and we went around.
As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take
long walks.
If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary
Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used
to walk there, and they came home--Marina came home with a Cancan
petticoat and some hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that
Robert and I had given him--he spent on his wife.
So that was a very happy time.
Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I
was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary.
And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for
$9 a day, 24 hours duty.
On an OB case--I am very busy with the baby all day long because
people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10
o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before
I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is
approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby
is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately--then my day starts. I am
stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a
day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63.
Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to
understand.
So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby
clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina.
I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought
a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough
money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of
that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair.
Mr. RANKIN. How did Marina treat you then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things
that I bought her.
As you see, the way I am properly dressed--I don't say I mean to be the
height of fashion, but I have--before becoming a nurse I was in the
business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So
I do know clothes.
And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the
Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently.
And I bought her a little longer shorts.
And "I no like, Mama."
I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to
have a little longer shorts than the younger girls."
"No, Mama."
And I will stress this--that Marina was never too happy--"No, Mama, no
nice, no, Mama, no this."
That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways.
I didn't feel badly about it.
I am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my
son.
I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at
home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in
Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time,
June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up.
"We put baby on lap, Mama, and baby eat on lap."
And so a highchair to me, I think, was new to Marina.
So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me,
"Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now--I want you
to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina
whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money
and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and
you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which
makes very good sense.
But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife
that he himself could not buy.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I agreed with him. And I said--the shock of it--I realize
what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is
part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our
children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. They would
rather have their own way of doing things.
And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of
his wife. So no more was said about it.
I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where
the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly
object to it--they would rather do without, and have their wife do
without, and they themselves be the master of the home.
So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was
perfectly right.
I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby
to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care
of me. So I agreed with that.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no, Marina didn't know--unless she understood the
English part. I have no way of knowing, you see.
Mr. RANKIN. All right. Tell us what happened after that, then.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, let me think just a minute.
This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian
side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me
that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that
these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have
material things.
And all through my story, I can prove things that have happened of this
nature.
Yes--I will continue.
I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and
by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this
salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the
Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross
seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took
care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on.
So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know
the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that
I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience,
gentlemen, is what I am trying to say.
So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby
bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the
United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work
clothes since he got this job.
She said, "Mrs. Oswald, what build is he?"
And I told her. And he was about the same build as her husband.
So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want.
However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not
buy--give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the
story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to
pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I
did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee.
Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is
approximately the 6th or 7th of October.
Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went--this is very important,
gentleman--I went to this home and I was there--I asked to get off an
hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I
went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed.
And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home,
approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little
boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman
put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch
him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in
English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they
said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"--and I will have
to say this--"or grandfather"--I do not know which--"is a Russian, from
Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee."
So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation--now,
this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The
conversation was general.
And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and
will offer you a job in Dallas."
I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and
work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her
father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that
he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in
need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give
you a job."
So, gentlemen, this was on a Sunday.
I made coffee, and the house was in order. There was nothing packed.
Lee got paid on a Friday, from the Leslie Sheetmetal Works.
Monday Lee and Marina packed their belongings and went to Dallas.
The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in
Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this
couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was
a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts
Graphic. I do not know--but you probably have that information. His
very first job there.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was discharged by the Leslie people?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He
just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did
not show up for work, because he came to Dallas.
The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a
Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed.
Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way
I know this--I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone,
because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and
Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were
leaving.
I said to Veda. "Marina and Lee are no longer there, the house is
vacant."
Mr. RANKIN. You spoke someone's name.
Mrs. OSWALD. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to
move yesterday.
She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the
refrigerator."
I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the
couple being there.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name of that couple?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I have not been able to find out.
I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember.
And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs.
Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the
couple. But I do not have that information.
Mr. RANKIN. And was he the owner of this business?
Mrs. OSWALD. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an
American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father
was a Russian, or the grandfather--that owned this place of business.
Mr. RANKIN. I think you said the grandfather before.
Mrs. OSWALD. I said either the father or the grandfather. I cannot be
sure.
It was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy.
So I told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it.
So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law
as a witness.
It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black
eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people.
Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I
had a day off, and Marina was not at home.
I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home."
She didn't answer.
I said, "Marina, Mama come see you. You no home, Marina."
"No. I go to lady's house to take English lessons."
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who she was speaking of?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know.
And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying
to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my
story, give you the facts.
I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these
lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons.
Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and
opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live
approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I
am stating, several times. You have to understand--this is just 6 or 7
weeks that they are in this home.
Mr. RANKIN. You say "they." I am sorry to interrupt.
Mrs. OSWALD. Marina and Lee, in this home.
Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that
they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak
English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That
worried me.
So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see
the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home
with.
The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there.
By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being
a stranger in town.
I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up.
Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way
going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward.
Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming--this is not a
fact--that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because
I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we
had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee
where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had
stayed in the car all day.
He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends."
"Would you like me to fix your supper?"
"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?"
So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I
did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still
wasn't home.
I walked in the home with my son.
So approximately 2 days later--not approximately, but 2 days later I
went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the
living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And
I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here."
Marina made no appearance.
So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head
down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I
came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye.
Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated
in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times
that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act.
But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was
working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any
food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working
man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper
ready.
That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what
I am trying to bring out.
And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also
know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I
made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and
have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his
wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to
do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act.
But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The
woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye,
but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must
consider the second aspect of the case.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she take the baby with her when you looked----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything
about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked.
"Mama--Lee." Just like that.
So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by
striking Marina?"
He said, "Mother, that is our affair."
And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further.
Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he
beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see
the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina
said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I
don't know.
But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am
trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we
say in our American way of life.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that
she had bruises or a black eye?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time.
And then the children moved to Dallas.
Now, this will end that part of the story.
I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went
to Russia--I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a
right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I
am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide
to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have
the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in
1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I
think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and
talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took
courage to go and live where he wanted to live.
I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published
in 1959--as far back as that.
So I will get back now to when the children left.
They did not tell me they had left.
So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he
was in Dallas.
Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection.
I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen--I have lost jobs,
I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and
something political was on television, and the people commented, I
felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the
defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was
a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have
been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were
not needed.
I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel
sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good
nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from
word of mouth.
But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally
it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because
of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you
tried to locate her?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no sir, that ended that.
So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he
was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact.
Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But
it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee
decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and
worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the
ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of
God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had
many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets
stronger. I do accept things.
As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have
that ability of doing that.
So I just accepted the fact--when Lee gets ready to let me know where
he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he
wants.
Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until
the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when
he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New
Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was before the time, sir--he lived--from my
apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on
Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of
September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. What year was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was in 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean '62?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--1962. And that was the last I had seen of
Marina and Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I
thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until
then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect
other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine.
When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will
go about my own business.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I
knew nothing, I had no contact with them.
So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas--the
assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. Whatever you know.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to
11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching--I am a
little ahead of my story.
I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And
Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance
approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas.
And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to
make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two
before his arrival in Dallas."
And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to
go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So
I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession.
And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was
shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on
television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report
to work.
So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the
radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a
suspect.
I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the
telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was,
because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert
immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the
assassination. So they had Robert call me.
Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this the day of the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up.
Mr. RANKIN. And 3 to 11--that is in the afternoon?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had
to be at work at 3 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back
home.
I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called
me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up.
Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked
that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because
I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men
to escort me to Dallas.
The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you
gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? Are those reporters?
Mrs. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor
to escort me to Dallas.
Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask--I did not want to talk to
the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was
granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story.
The policemen do not know I am here--"I want to talk to FBI agents."
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day is this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an
office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and
there was another man that I do not know the name.
Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean their names were Brown?
Mrs. OSWALD. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names,
also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said,
"I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an
agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't
want this to get out."
But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from
Washington."
"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington."
I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials
from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of
protecting the President.
I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say
to Washington men."
Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through
Washington."
I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men."
So I had no choice.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am coming to this.
So I said, "I have information that"--I told him who I was.
I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly
quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department
furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and
I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and
so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet."
Of course that was news to them.
They left me sitting in the office.
And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this.
"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright."
And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in
Washington.
Would you like those four names now?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of
Soviet affairs.
One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names.
Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these
men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my
Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate.
So they left me.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say you understand that the State Department paid
your son's way back from the Soviet Union----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that that was a loan?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the
money to come back.
Mr. RANKIN. But you didn't know that at the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. But I stated--you see, I was worried about the
security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out--how
they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the
money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin.
I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I
wanted the FBI, not the police, to know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you
thought he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me,
started to question me.
One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last
time you were in touch with him?"
That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man.
I said, "I have not seen my son in a year."
He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have
not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother."
I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my
son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of
his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my
son in a year."
And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that.
They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me,
and she started to question me.
I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as
well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want,
if you will relay--have these two Star Telegram men come in here,
please. I would like to ask them something."
So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee."
Of course the men didn't answer.
But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen,
with this woman who came in and out.
I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information
from me, you are not."
And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours.
Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to
whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to
see Lee."
Mr. RANKIN. What office was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. The courthouse in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Whose office was it in? Do you know?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead--for
instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And
then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the
police and everybody was.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whose office it was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours.
And I never did get to see Lee.
So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you there when he was questioned?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by
the FBI or the Secret Service--never, gentlemen. If they can produce my
voice or anything, they can produce it.
So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was.
And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And
Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a
second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina
started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad
to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you,
especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."
And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?"
She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me.
She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas,
and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to
interfere."
And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very
emotional.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the
courthouse now, in the jailhouse.
So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have,
is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her.
Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina
gave--just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that
the Dallas police has.
I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen,
whether it is the correct testimony.
So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter.
And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in
Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much
as possible."
She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to
sleep on the sofa."
I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I
will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas."
So we left. We went to Mrs. Paine's home.
I am going to say again I did not see my son.
So--I had my nurse's uniform on for 3 days.
Mr. RANKIN. What day was this at Mrs. Paine's?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived
there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes
after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door.
Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may
have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have
taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs.
Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina,
and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the
time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home.
Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home,
about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life
representatives entered the home.
The name of the men, one is Allan Grant, and the other is Tommy
Thompson.
And I was not introduced.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever seen them before?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could
have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the
time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and
comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back
seat of the car.
So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer--he
had a camera in front of him--"Now, I hope you have good color film,
because I want good pictures."
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs.
Paine's home--I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that
time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door.
Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film
so we will have some good pictures."
I didn't know who they were.
But then I knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the
camera.
So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs.
Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in
Dallas?"
She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because
of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no
transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family."
"Well," he said, "What type family man is he?"
She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night
he fed June. He watches television and just normal things."
She went on.
So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"--I
am sorry--"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the
United States financially?"
She said, "Oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the United
States."
Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen,
because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled
for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of
my son.
But I was in Mrs. Paine's home.
Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said--I am
ahead of myself.
She answered that he saved the money.
I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home.
And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will
not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen
to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not
approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story
with Life magazine"--by that time I knew what it was--"I would like to
get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I,
myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I
believe we should get paid for it."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think Mrs. Paine was trying to get paid for it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That
is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life
representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she
expected them, you see.
Mr. RANKIN. You think she arranged it, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, possibly with Marina's help.
I do not know. It was arranged--I am positive--the way they entered the
home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately
said she hoped they had color film.
Mr. RANKIN. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine,
while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part.
I didn't know Russian.
Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald,
I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of
your life story."
So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private.
And nothing was said--in the living room.
When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other
representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in
Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a
regular general conversation, as far as I knew.
He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the
company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would
do--they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and
expenses, hotel accommodation.
So I told him that I would think about it.
Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures
continuously, all the while this was going on--the photographer, Mr.
Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset.
I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he
stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of
privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking
my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't
want made public." It is the worst--with me rolling my hose. I wanted
to get comfortable.
He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He
took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory--I will
say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And
I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking
her, and they were taking me. And it was just a regular--the home was
a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all
going around in circles.
And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became
indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations
you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in
Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning."
So they left.
However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine
from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was
talking to.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. One of the men--either Allen Grant or Tommy Thompson.
And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life
representatives?"
And she said, "Oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened."
So I got no information there.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a short recess, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am getting thirsty.
The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we do. We will take one for about 10 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may
continue with your statement.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the 22d, Friday, the 22d.
I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about
that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member
of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can
assure you."
I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue
with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why
didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about
that.
Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts.
My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says.
So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma,
I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of
books and papers. And she came out with a picture--a picture of Lee,
with a gun.
It said, "To my daughter June"--written in English.
I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture.
Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on
television--I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't
know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son
by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter,
"To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You
yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the
assassination--"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say,
and I remember--I think my son is an agent all the time--no one is
going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President,
or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle,
and leave that there for evidence.
So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter,
June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they
would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think.
She says, "You take, Mamma."
I said, "No."
"Yes, Mamma, you take."
I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back
in the book. Which book it was, I do not know.
So the next day, when we are at the courthouse--this is on
Saturday--she--we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her
shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in
her shoe.
Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was,
because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't
open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came
along and he says, "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her
to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about
the picture.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about
destroying the picture.
Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home.
I want to start to remember--because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home,
we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have
to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions.
Mr. RANKIN. No, you go right ahead.
Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs.
Paine, when I said, after the representatives left--I said, "You know,
I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here
is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money
for attorneys, with two babies."
She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always
have a home with me, because Marina helps."
Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian
language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you
never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me."
Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So
it is just the two women.
So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper
stated--that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine
owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the
airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning
her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what I am trying
to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the
children, with her children--if she wanted to go running around and
everything.
So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims
she was doing.
But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina
would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her.
At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in
the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine
with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an
attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill.
Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an
envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How
much money, Marina."
"About how much?" I asked her.
"About $100 and some."
Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and
Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for
Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at
Christmas time--in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and
some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week
room in Dallas--and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate
lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And
Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for
Christmas.
So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house--I would not think
so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say
he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money
to his wife.
And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six
Flags--that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me
the money.
I cannot think now--I did think of the money after going back--but I
cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any
benefit that happened in this house.
Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some
photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you
are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture.
Mr. RANKIN. And 133, consists of two different pictures.
Mrs. OSWALD.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the
rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was
holding the rifle up.
Mr. RANKIN. By holding it up, you mean----
Mrs. OSWALD.. Like this.
Mr. RANKIN. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD.. With both hands on the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. Above his head?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were going to tell us about some further
discussion of the picture you did see?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--all right.
Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine,
Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a
woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to
find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was
a language teacher, and I--maybe you have her name. But she is very,
very important to our story.
And I do want to locate her, if possible.
During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer,
because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go
with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and
my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with
this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the
children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time.
Mr. RANKIN. They came by where?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though,
to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the
Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and
everything--whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because
they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs.
Paine did.
We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel
Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the
phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see
Lee at the jailhouse.
Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?
Mrs. OSWALD. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case.
Mr. RANKIN. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that
answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted
to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came
back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at
12 o'clock today."
We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00.
Mr. RANKIN. This was what day?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday,
November 23.
While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with
another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned.
Mr. RANKIN. Were these FBI agents?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No,
we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in.
I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with
you."
So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"--to the
interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come
with me to be questioned."
I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that,
because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised
to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the
courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make
will be through counsel."
Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"--to the
interpreter--"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like
to do and not listen to her mother-in-law."
I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my
daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without
counsel."
And I had been telling Marina, "No, no."
She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying.
Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert,
we would like to take Marina and question her."
He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both
she and Lee."
So he left.
We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the
courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by--I don't know
whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents--in a glass enclosure. We
were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on
the bench right there.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday.
So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry
that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have
picked up another suspect."
I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe
shoot Kennedy."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we
would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very
nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for
privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got
to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in
the jail--the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we
were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina
and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he
thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his
brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of day was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This
would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present when he saw you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where
they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone
and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what
was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was
well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and
everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked
with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so
bruised up, your face. What are they doing?"
He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle."
Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's
way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his
black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in
the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help
you?"
He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I
will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with
Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about another suspect?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him.
Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my
son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it."
And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a
mother--I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard
another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man,
because he hasn't been--hasn't had the opportunity to present his side
of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did
you ask him if he did it?"
No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not
insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because
I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it."
So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question.
Mr. RANKIN. Who told you that there was--they had found another suspect?
Mrs. OSWALD. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just
walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked
up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked
up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been
approximately 1 o'clock that day.
Mr. RANKIN. But you don't remember the officer's name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just
relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not
have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters,
when I told my story, that part to them--they said that substantiates
the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time.
Mr. RANKIN. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone,
and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we
left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love
Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I
buy shoes for June."
Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President.
This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been
questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young
daughter needing shoes.
Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl,
Marina told me--they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was
worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like
children wear out their toes.
I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars
in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the
jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just
a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have
bought shoes for this particular child.
Another way to look at this, as I stated previously--that the boy
is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful
predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going
to be all right, as he told me.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to
your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is?
Was your son on the other side of a wall or something?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and
then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was.
Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the
officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions
like telephone booths. But not really inclosed--just a little
separation.
Mr. RANKIN. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. We talked by telephone.
Mr. RANKIN. And he had a telephone on his side, and----
Mrs. OSWALD. And he had a telephone.
Mr. RANKIN. And you talked back and forth?
Mrs. OSWALD. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked.
And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers--his face,
black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly
beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got
some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being
mistreated, would not tell his mother that.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you
didn't understand it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it
seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling.
And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him,
and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She
did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked
quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first
time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not
volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And
upon arriving at the hotel--I am a little ahead of my story.
The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous
to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor.
And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take
us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was
shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to
bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try
to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in
the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters,
and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were
at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the
jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25
minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following
Marina and I.
So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on
the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men.
Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life
representative.
Mr. RANKIN. What two men were you with?
Mrs. OSWALD. Two men from the Dallas courthouse.
Mr. RANKIN. From the police?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, from the police.
So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had
never even--as thorough as I am trying to be--I am trying to tell you
there are some things I don't know because of the confusion--I didn't
ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed
they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas
detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for
his credentials, and then left us in his care again.
Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to
do now?"
The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr.
Allen Grant.
I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in
the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses."
He said, "But you have not given us any facts."
They were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they
were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They
did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus
Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee.
And I have often wondered about that.
So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs.
Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you
are. Just a minute."
He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant--they had a Life--the Life
representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of
men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr.
Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--I do not
know his name--because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things
of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--they left. Tommy Thompson said,
"Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of
town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money
for your expenses in case you need anything."
Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without
looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is
confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket.
So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel,
the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the
outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then,
and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for
2 or 3 days. I have to be back in San Francisco. Anything you want
you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in
touch with you."
Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to
our room.
We had two beautiful suites--two, not one--completed rooms and baths,
adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen
either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two
babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for
food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I
would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with
the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is
what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually
Marina and I were in.
I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I
didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been
picked up.
So this is where the picture comes in.
While there, Marina--there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And
Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and
strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina
tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it.
Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not
cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. So the
match didn't take it completely.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in
Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was
in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that
picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said--I
testified before--"Mamma, you keep picture."
And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it,
then she decided to get rid of the picture.
She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and
flushed it down the toilet.
Mr. RANKIN. And what time was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know
is very important to me and to you, too.
We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would
be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening.
Mr. RANKIN. What day?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and
the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was
nothing said.
Mr. RANKIN. That was at the Executive Inn?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the Executive Inn.
Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my
daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the
door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I
pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum."
So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk
about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important.
I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I
didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to
take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is
my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina."
I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina.
We are awful tired."
"Well, we just want to ask her one question."
"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is
taking a bath."
She wasn't.
He said, "Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you a question."
I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear
bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand--his hand is bigger
than mine--in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the
two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and
white picture of a man's face and shoulder.
Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's
hand with the picture--what I am trying to say--he is facing this
way--showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And
I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because
the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and
shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this
picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a
glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have
never seen this picture in my life."
With that, he went off.
There was another man with him.
About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She
said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina
was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I
would like to talk to Marina."
So I put Marina on the telephone, and Marina said about two or three
words.
So when she got off the telephone, I said,--Now, Marina talks in
Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called
and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a
lawyer."
Marina didn't answer.
And I then sensed--well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very
peculiar.
And there was no more said about that conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her about this lawyer?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ask Marina?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was no more said about this conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything about Mr. Abt to her then?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But here is the point to this whole thing.
The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would
have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives,
who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to
get more information. And she--they would have told her where we were,
because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection
or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the
representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would
have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal
procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking
for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the
Executive Inn. I will grant that.
But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be
shown to Marina before the telephone conversation.
Now, if there are any questions why I say that, I would be happy to
answer.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes--why do you say that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because they wanted Marina----
Mr. DULLES. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held
in the hand?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the picture that is held in the hand, that the
FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me.
Mr. RANKIN. I understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at
all.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before,
"Believe me, sir," and he left.
So the picture was shown--was tried--had tried to be shown to my
daughter-in-law, but they were not successful.
So then they received--Marina receives a telephone call.
Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's
picture I saw--at the time I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know
it is Mr. Jack Ruby.
I am under the impression that Marina was threatened----
Mr. RANKIN. What was the date now?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30
in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was
later.
Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the
telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time do you think the telephone call was?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say it was about 7:30, 8 o'clock in the night.
Mr. RANKIN. That was still on Saturday night?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn.
And that was after the picture was shown to me--she received this
telephone call, and became very silent.
And the next day my son was shot.
Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I
believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina
to see.
Mr. RANKIN. Why do you think that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my
son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not
tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee
used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that.
Mr. RANKIN. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive
at now, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence
on taking my daughter-in-law--and he being the same agent that came
and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee--yes,
these are definite conclusions.
Mr. RANKIN. That is what you base it on?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is what I base it on.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the
picture at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for
Marina to see the picture.
Mr. RANKIN. And when they could not show it to her----
Mrs. OSWALD. They showed it to me--yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that picture since?
Mrs. OSWALD. On a Wednesday--Lee was shot on a Sunday--neither Marina
nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize
this.
We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret
Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two
sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on.
Mr. RANKIN. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have
skipped something there--you were in the Executive Inn before.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know
why I didn't know.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right--let's go back to the Executive Inn.
So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we
were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas.
I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the
babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for
this. And it was hectic, gentlemen.
So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert,
what can I do.
And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs.
Paine from the time I entered her home.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you found out how much money the Life man gave you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not even yet.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I
asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said,
"Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room--what
name?"
I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which
name they used."
So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant,
which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed.
And they would have that for proof--Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food.
Mr. RANKIN. Why did you say three couples?
Mrs. OSWALD. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give
her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under.
So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit--let her know. I didn't want
to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about
the situation.
During the night I thought--"We are in a position here, I am in a
position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what
to do."
I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And
I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call
Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine.
So this is a very unusual coincidence.
Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the
story will get together for you to understand.
About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that
the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was
Russian classes.
Well, I then, as I told you--I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And
I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because
this woman was not that sick, just an invalid.
So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I
would call up about it, and on my day off--make Tuesday my day off and
take up Russian in case--because I had always hoped in my heart that
Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother
first.
So I went to the library. And Mr. Peter Gregory was the instructor.
Now, you must remember--I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee.
This is public notice for the Russian language.
So Mr. Peter Gregory is the instructor.
I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the
library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr.
Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his
classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because
my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said,
"Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you
home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy."
And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10
blocks away.
Now, I have to go back.
The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer
who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when
I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before
the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take
the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember
me as the mother of Lee--didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I
find that very peculiar.
Even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment.
So I went home with Mr. Peter Gregory. And there was still no
acknowledgment.
So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to
learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought
I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my
Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it.
But I am going to point out again that Mr. Gregory did not acknowledge
me.
I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would
seem very odd--Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name--that he didn't
connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a
friend with them.
Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear as to what lessons you were taking.
Mrs. OSWALD. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex.,
and Mr. Gregory was the teacher.
Mr. RANKIN. You said something about Spanish.
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, did I? I am sorry. No, sir, the Russian language.
The CHAIRMAN. What days were these?
Mr. RANKIN. What days were these that you talked to Mr. Gregory?
Mrs. OSWALD. You mean the Russian language?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you
from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had
taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go
for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday--the lessons were on
a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the
assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. I see.
So it would be around a little over 3 weeks before the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson
would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination.
Yes, sir, that is the time.
So then I thought of Mr. Gregory.
Now, believe me, gentlemen--and I will swear again, if you want me
to--nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I
do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know
have been from this guardian angel.
This was just a coincidence.
I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort
Worth. I never--I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live
to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really
I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any
new friends.
So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr.
Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning,
Sunday, the 24th--Sunday morning the 24th.
And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a
fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"--I said, "I can't tell you who
I am, Mr. Gregory."
I am ahead of my story.
Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a
Mr. Gregory."
And I told her about me taking Russian lessons.
"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the
library that gives Russian lessons."
So I find that very much of a coincidence.
So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am,
but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in
trouble, sir. I am over here."
He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anybody I don't know."
Mr. RANKIN. What name did you give him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't give him any name.
He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anyone I don't know."
And I said again, "Well, you know my son real well."
He said, "Oh, you are Mrs. Oswald."
I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn
in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my
daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is
going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr.
Gregory."
He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold
still. Help will be coming."
And so that was the end of my conversation with Mr. Gregory.
At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to
the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the
place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me.
I went with the uniform.
"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."
I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this
time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want
to tell you what happened."
"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here."
Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things
together. We have to get you out of here."
I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from
one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we
have to pack things."
"Hurry up."
I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a
man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called."
I told him exactly.
So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him
that while I am gathering up the things.
"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here."
I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a television in this room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and
I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The
babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and
the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were
just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want
see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did.
So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the
television off. The same thing over and over."
And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what
happened to my son.
We had the television off.
So we did not know.
But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and
run.
So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the
story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I
told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us
out of here.
Mr. RANKIN. They didn't say anything about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they
did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at
me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you
out of here."
I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the
other. The diapers are wet."
I was kind of having my way about this.
So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around.
I am ahead of my story.
Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert
the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given
to me. They gave me some money. I took it out----
Mr. RANKIN. That is the first time you looked at it?
Mrs. OSWALD. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food,
and I had no need for money. Wait a minute--I am wrong. Yes.
Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald--didn't you say you had washed your
uniform?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. When you washed your uniform, didn't you----
Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was
wrong. The first time--it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in.
We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and
I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store--I gave
him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in--the
first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities
that Marina and I needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and
everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a
Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time.
And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went
downstairs to pay the bill.
Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to
pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those
men left two women stranded.
Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it
back?
Mrs. OSWALD. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I
had. I kept it in my pocket.
Mr. RANKIN. When you washed your uniform----
Mrs. OSWALD. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform,
because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that
was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is
really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry.
So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type
to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money
I have to get out of the hotel--I don't know if I am going to get
help--so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important
papers right now on my person.
I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be
proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug
store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the
lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with.
Mr. RANKIN. And then after you paid the bill there----
Mrs. OSWALD. Robert paid the bill.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened next?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that
the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and
checked us out. Then the Secret Service----
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the time when you checked out?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the amount of the bill?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the
amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars--about $48, I believe. That
is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what
Robert told me.
And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I
told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the
rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about
40-some-odd dollars.
Mr. RANKIN. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then
Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret
Service agents in the front.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you go someplace?
Mrs. OSWALD. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us--as soon as
we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's
mother-in-law's house."
Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a
little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They
are dairy people--Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there,
which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas.
And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the
country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."
"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever
find it."
I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room
in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be
in Dallas where I can help Lee."
And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was
made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would
not go.
I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked
up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, this was after----
Mrs. OSWALD. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car.
Mr. RANKIN. And this was after your son was killed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, yes, but they didn't know this.
Mr. RANKIN. And Robert didn't know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. They kept it from us--I guess being women. Marina and I
did not even know he was shot.
I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know.
Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security
reasons----
Mr. DULLES. If the time is 11:30----
Mr. RANKIN. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought.
Mr. DULLES. You said 11:30 to 12.
Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately that time.
Mr. DULLES. It might not have taken place.
Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I
don't know this.
This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have
had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee
was shot. Not now--I do not know this.
Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to
ask.
If you will bear with me, I can go into----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. RANKIN. You never did?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling
you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know
these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and
read papers. Marina and I--I had two sick babies there. There was a
doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were
not telling us anything. They were not interested in us.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a
hotel, you could be protected there, what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going
to give me my way. But we needed clothes--Marina and the baby needed
clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through
my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby,
because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving.
We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I
feel sure my son was shot.
Mr. RANKIN. How far away is that from this Executive Inn?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would think--now, this is just hearsay. But I would
think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles.
When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home.
And there were cars all around.
As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has
been shot."
And I said, "How badly?"
He said, "In the shoulder."
They brought Marina into the house.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew that?
Mrs. OSWALD. It came over--I thought he had the radio in the car,
Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up,
sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now
telling us this, Marina and I.
He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot."
I said, "How badly?"
He said, "In the shoulder."
I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot."
So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs.
Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us,
with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for
us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should
go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she
wanted.
And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina.
So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home
now--remember.
So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says,
"Do not repeat. Do not repeat."
I said, "My son is gone isn't he?"
And he didn't answer.
I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to
meditate."
He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired."
Mr. RANKIN. Now, which agent told you this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect
me in Fort Worth, Tex.--Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode
in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six
Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to
protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that
was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day?
Was there another Secret Service agent with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. He went into the home--he escorted Marina into the chief
of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other
agent that I want to know the name of.
Wait just a minute.
I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is
involved.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your
son's death?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and
Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30.
And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving
and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing
up to the time--it all fits in--which was 1 o'clock or 1:30.
As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home,
and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone."
We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television.
The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see
it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back
of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were
looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man
said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted.
They gave us coffee.
And then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief
of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know.
We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this
chief of police of Irving.
Mr. RANKIN. What paper is that?
Mrs. OSWALD. The Star Telegram paper.
All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While
at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids
take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags,
from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece
of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not--believe me, gentlemen,
this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture
of the way my son was shot.
Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of
papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how
my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings
and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr.
Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was
the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this?
Mrs. OSWALD. About the shooting?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn
from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th--as I told you.
Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six
Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We
knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get
to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the
television.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday
afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. That is another story.
Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see
Lee, too."
And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better
to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up."
I said, "No, I want to see Lee now."
Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee."
They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this.
But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter
for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me.
And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter.
So she said, "I want to see Lee, too."
They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But
I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it
with the two women. So they decided to pacify us.
We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to
change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard--he was driving the
car--"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you
would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing."
I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American
citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other
human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her
husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take
me to the hospital to see my son."
Gentlemen, I require the same privilege.
So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital.
"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect
you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have
you under protection. We cannot protect you."
I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am
going to see my son."
Mr. Gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always
remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have
just lost a son.
He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering
this girl's life, and the life of these two children."
I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is
thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and
over--that these Russian people are always considering this Russian
girl. He snapped at me.
I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can
do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son."
And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to
see Lee."
After Mr. Gregory said that--"I, too, want to see Lee."
So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret
Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the
police in the hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2
and 3 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Sunday, November 24th.
Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted
into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is
that we have to have an autopsy on a body."
I said, "Yes, I understand."
And Marina understood.
Marina is a registered pharmacist.
So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood.
And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand
that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not
be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much
better if you would see him after he was fixed up."
I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son
now."
Marina--as I am trying to say, she understands English--she said, "I
want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying.
We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but
it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table--a
table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of
policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face
was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to
me--I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a
very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she
says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes."
Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I
didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son.
So on the way, leaving the body in the room--I am in the room----
Mr. RANKIN. You were satisfied it was your son?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted
to make sure it was my son.
So while leaving the room, I said to the police--"I think some day you
will hang your heads in shame."
I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the
unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide
this if I can."
And, with that, I left the room.
Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the
chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's
name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you
have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many
papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this.
But that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at Parkland
Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to
the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an
agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen
to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with
Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way
our life has intervened.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an
agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No--I am
always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I
would say anything like that.
And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved,
and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a
Marxist.
So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert,
because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my
son buried in the Arlington Cemetery.
Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be
buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent,
and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to
the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked
him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about
it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother,
forget it."
So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the
Arlington Cemetery.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready.
The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he
said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a
minute."
So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there
a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my
message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked
the police if he could talk to Robert.
Mr. RANKIN. The chaplain never told you anything more about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert say anything about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact
Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.
Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I
wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I
stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting,
and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone
out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother
have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left
handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.
Mr. RANKIN. But you are?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.
But Lee was more left handed than I am.
I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But
Lee was left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left
handed one. I would say no.
Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe
me--with documents and everything.
A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't
want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have
to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this
and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have
any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far--I would like
to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything.
It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to
question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to
you.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way.
Mrs. OSWALD. May I have some fresh water, please?
Mr. RANKIN. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you
know something about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know about that.
The CHAIRMAN. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper.
But I have a story on that.
Mr. RANKIN. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are
talking about?
Mrs. OSWALD. About Robert knowing about the gun--I have already said
that.
About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting.
Mr. RANKIN. You said there was another gun matter.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a long, long story.
The CHAIRMAN. I think she has gotten to the point----
Mrs. OSWALD. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't
you think--about the gun?
The CHAIRMAN. I don't know.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed.
The CHAIRMAN. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call
to our attention, things that you know about?
Mrs. OSWALD. On the particular story that I have said this morning--you
mean of Lee?
This is where it gets confusing.
Representative FORD. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What
happened then?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. This is interesting.
After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we
will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them."
And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts
of Arlington, Tex. They took us there.
And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something,
because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were
welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important--if we are
going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because
that is a very long, important story to this Commission.
Mr. DULLES. How far is that from Dallas--the Six Flags Inn?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is
near Arlington, Tex.
The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may
continue with your statement.
Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had
forgotten one very important factor in the story.
I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in
the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police
station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was
Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she
could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that
Lee had a gun.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22,
when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am
going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it.
Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to
ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know
the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so
that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr.
Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left,
that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement.
Was there something else I told you?
Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me,
ma'am.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed
Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina
had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in
Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to
assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina,
and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said
she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know
whether that was the gun or not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as
I said before--that was it.
Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard
about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland
Hospital.
Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital.
Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving.
And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags.
Mr. RANKIN. Correct.
Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags.
I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags.
My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was
continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.
I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research
from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them.
All the papers were at home.
I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were
getting the original papers, because I know that each department in
the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing
condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture.
They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape.
I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that
Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though.
Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me
in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son
was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the
State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that
they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short
questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to
talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there
were two other men.
Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was
so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would
put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date
of the funeral--I remember now.
Mr. RANKIN. November 25th?
Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of
the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So
I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection.
And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw
Robert crying.
Wait, I am ahead of my story.
You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for
any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother
that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on.
I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother,
where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to
come to.
So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he
will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about
my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested
in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington.
So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has
happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his
mother has known all of these years.
So I started.
Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he
was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked
approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my
thoughts have left me, because my son is crying."
I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was
saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because
I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But
Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could
not get a minister at my son's grave.
They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my
son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So
that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were
questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard----
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking.
Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape.
Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be.
But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a
very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My
thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."
That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do
not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story.
And that is the only time.
It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while.
They did not want to hear anything from me.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were
questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?
Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what
they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They
said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I
am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even
though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun
doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."
If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking,
and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I
did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And
that is the point that has bothered me.
Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called
Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have
20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got
it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying?
Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because
Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I
was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's
funeral.
What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1
hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see,
Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have
been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But
I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They
have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found
out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it
until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery.
They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made
clear--because that is the part I cannot understand.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the
right to say what shall be done?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the
mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and
right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard
and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now
in a concrete vault?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the
ministers.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are
Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have
learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking
against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my
work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of
the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church,
that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay
home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald,
today."
You see, I am expected to work on Sunday.
So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is
better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect
me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on
Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I
am sorry.
Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran
minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called
upon another minister, because there would have been many, many
ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and
help the sorrowing family.
Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on
the sofa.
Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert
was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get
him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not.
So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that
is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should
go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's
say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be
concerned about".
And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man
right here----
Mr. RANKIN. You are pointing to----
Mrs. OSWALD. This agent right here. You may pass the picture around.
Mr. RANKIN. The figure on the left hand of the picture you have just
produced?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency
to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the
minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I
said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have
a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on
the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said,
"Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse."
Now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold
me.
This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel
services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we
compromised for chapel services.
However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There
is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture.
Here is another picture of the chapel.
Mr. RANKIN. Before we go on----
Mrs. OSWALD. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought
into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because
there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the
police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the
chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery,
we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel
services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert
cried bitterly.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can I interrupt a minute?
We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just
referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. The photograph I have just referred to is Exhibit 165, is
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 165.
Mr. RANKIN. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand
corner of that exhibit.
Mrs. OSWALD. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike
Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was
taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to
protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags.
Mr. RANKIN. And he stands right behind you there in that picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Mr. Mike Howard.
Mr. RANKIN. Isn't he a Secret Service man?
Mrs. OSWALD. Secret Service man--they are both Secret Service.
Representative FORD. That was the point I wanted to make, because she
had said he was an FBI agent.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember
and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And
I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you
do not have.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other
picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the
removing of the casket?
Mrs. OSWALD. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the
chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel.
But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went
through, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to
substitute copies.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166
were received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the
chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed
on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture
of them taking the casket into the chapel?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the
chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to
substitute copies.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168
for identification were received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that
this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture,
while the television was on continuously--I have stated before I never
did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was
published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the
radio.
He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I
took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the
gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President?
Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used
it--nobody saw him use it."
He snapped back and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, we know that he shot the
President."
I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with
that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me
ever since I have been here."
He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for
30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you."
I said, "Let him keep his personal opinions to himself. He is on a job."
Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed
Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed
Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina.
We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting
ready for the funeral.
Marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses.
"Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You
can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as
merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was
not happy with it.
I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It
will be all right."
And we had 1 hour in order to get ready for the funeral.
I said, "We will never make it. Marina is so slow."
She said, "I no slow. I have things to do."
I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and
has always talked broken English.
Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That
is why he was allowed in the bedroom.
While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby,
2 years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good
children--was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by
this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her
hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina,
don't do that." And this agent--I wish I knew his name--snapped at me
and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what
to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the
head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald.
Now, why did this man do these things?
Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far
as Marina was concerned?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, what do you mean when you say improper?
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as
you know?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as
I can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think
our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two
agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot.
The CHAIRMAN. With who?
Mrs. OSWALD. With Marina and Mrs. Paine--the two women. Lee was set up,
and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved.
Mr. RANKIN. Which ones are you referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know
the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think
so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that
happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I
am not a detective, and I don't say it is the answer to it. But I
must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this
information.
Now, here is another instance----
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men
are engaged in?
Mrs. OSWALD. The assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and
Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you
the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the
story, if you please.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because
that is a very serious charge.
Mrs. OSWALD. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base
that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's
attitude also.
Now, I have to continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you described that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have to continue.
While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina
was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl.
Marina was under--what is the word--I won't say influence--these two
men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are
you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing
more than that?
Mrs. OSWALD. More than taking care of Marina.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, describe what more.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right, I will describe it for you.
I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my
thoughts together.
I noticed that--and of course as I have testified, the way the man
treated me--and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We
were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November
26th Marina and I--before November 26th--Marina and I were very, very
friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"--"Mama has a big heart."
And we planned to live together.
I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to
keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at
the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in
force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job
to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my
papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out
if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some
clothes.
From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did
not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to
his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home
and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said,
"I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove
Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes."
So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I
found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina,
"Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home
with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and
at least we have a start."
"Okay, Mama. I not want big house, Mama. I want small place."
And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted
small things. Fine.
On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock--this was in the
morning--I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off
and walked away.
Mr. DULLES. What date was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for
an FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a
Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine."
And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my
daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian
broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied.
So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she
thought--because I had to use the name Lee so many times--that I was
hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I
thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I
would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and
shrugged me off.
So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the
Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong
with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me."
He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy
woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy
woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to
tell you."
I said, "Well, Robert, why didn't you tell me?"
Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why
didn't you tell me?"
He said, "Because just the way you are acting now."
I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting
in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my
daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost
my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with
strangers. This is a normal reaction."
"Well, that is why we didn't tell you. We knew you would take it that
way."
And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina.
And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We
were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina--and I
will present this in evidence.
Now, Mr. Gregory is involved--Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking.
They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story.
Yes, here it is.
And there are other offers Marina had--other offers.
So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it.
And they gloated.
Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of
the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed
financially and otherwise.
Mr. RANKIN. Is this Mrs. Pultz?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed
to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these
things"--because he knows the story. This has all been published
publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give
you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper,
all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article
until the other day.
Mr. RANKIN. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home,
and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer,
according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz.
That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is offering her a home.
Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and
I will tell you further what I do know about this.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to identify this as the next
exhibit.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the
newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to
substitute a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for
identification was received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?
Mrs. OSWALD. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th.
It would have to be the 27th.
Mr. RANKIN. Now----
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, there were other people that offered her homes.
Mr. RANKIN. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad
about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of
in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Well--no--as I have explained before, Robert and
I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very
easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My
older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret
Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along
and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to
have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and
Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it,
or just trying to look out for----
Mrs. OSWALD. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go
and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not
interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech,
that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and
face our future together. I could see no reason--and I made this at
the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see
no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that
before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I
had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even
said--we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What
about you helping us?"
"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange
home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama."
Marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. But I was her
Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home.
Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story.
But as I go along--I have witnesses--and that is why I asked you, sir,
I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I
am telling you. It can be proven, sir.
So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came
out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was
the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me.
That night, the night of November 27th--now, we were in a bedroom with
twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living
room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "they"?
Mrs. OSWALD. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and
everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service
rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew
that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way
about me. I didn't say a word. What I did--I sat up in a chair all
night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to
sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I
sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I
was being pushed aside.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, what Secret Servicemen were these--Mr. Howard?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Howard was involved, and this other man.
Mr. RANKIN. The same man?
Mrs. OSWALD. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was
part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home,
and they didn't tell me--and Mr. Peter Gregory.
Mr. RANKIN. And did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living
room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's
baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law.
And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without
sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before
they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the
insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all
night long.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that arrangement?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time
I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out
why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can
you explain that to us?
Mrs. OSWALD. About this particular instance?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is
certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to
consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live
with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went
ahead and planned all this without my knowledge.
Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard
feelings--even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way
I can.
So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things
happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part
of this.
Mr. RANKIN. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents
could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her
children along?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would
be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect
stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a
home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect
stranger--maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to
assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live
in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my
grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see
that.
Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that
Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they
are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they
were trying to do the right thing?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure--I don't
think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we
go along.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said you thought it was deliberate.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear
picture.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live
with another lady--this Mrs. Pultz--you said you did not think it could
be innocent or in good faith?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because then this same Secret Service man, that I
don't know the name--now, I may be wrong about this--just a moment.
No--this is not the same man.
One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss,
because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the
afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front
of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have
talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not
involved in any way."
So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of--I am
not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of
myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job,
offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered
what is going to become of me.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service
man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that
there was nothing improper?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And
that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures
to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and
Robert's job is secure--but I am nothing. I was not included in the
plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no
job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me.
I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a
point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even
as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why.
It is very strange.
I packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as I said.
So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there.
I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I
am out of everything, so I insist on going home.
Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren,
and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these
quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the
Inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door.
Mr. RANKIN. What day is this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me
home--I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many
agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that
I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The
Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the
door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell
Marina and the children goodby."
He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will
get in touch with you."
So I never saw Marina after that time.
Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know
of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they
think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I
could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell
her goodby.
So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over
and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to
see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well,
Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular
push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina,
he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina--if I
am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I
have tried unsuccessfully.
Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin
and Mr. Thorne--Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne
is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark
Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me.
Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first
engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not
satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina
to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote?
Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But
this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I
wanted to hear it from Marina.
So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every
reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina.
Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the
Civil Liberties Association--I don't know if that's the proper name--in
Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent
people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how
Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be
allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many people question
this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict
seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul.
My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before
then.
His family went with him--I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and
she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news
in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be
with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable
for news.
Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret
Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time,
waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this
in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there
again, I am excluded.
Do you know the answers to all these exclusions? I do not.
The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance
was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an
exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she
stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President
Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to
think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks,
gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I
watched every television program, and I took it down in black and
white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy."
She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be
the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over
with, believe me.
She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what
I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the
Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks--8 weeks,
gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina.
Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from
newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what
the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the
facts that Marina has manufactured since.
I am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your claim on, that Marina was brainwashed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina.
I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I
question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in
strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen.
Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American
people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning
that. The papers have blasted it continuously.
Mr. RANKIN. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you
think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy
she could not even take care of the children?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the
Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for
that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection.
But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the
Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to
see me?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of
the people that would want--or did want to see Marina?
Mrs. OSWALD. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. And take her time, while she had to take care of the
children.
Mrs. OSWALD. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick,
and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her.
But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can
solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see
her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused
permission to see her, then we question it.
No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are
asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high
official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said.
Mr. Thorne was her attorney.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, we will get to Mr. Thorne.
When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my
daughter-in-law and grandchildren?"
And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are
fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts."
He volunteered the information to me.
And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"--because I had
already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time I had contacted
him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered
the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are
fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts."
I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had
Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine,
that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my
possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when
they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all
those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and
he said he would inquire about it.
I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring
something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning
I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and
money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and
Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both."
The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks
and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I
said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely
want my share."
Believe me, gentlemen, I have never received 1 penny.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. They said yes--and my son was there when I said that--they
said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother
of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when
I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I
was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received
a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home,
because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"--I believe it
was----
Representative FORD. Third of what?
Mrs. OSWALD. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of
November--approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that
way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service
divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they
took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I
have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the
share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret
Service at this time.
So 2 weeks later----
Mr. RANKIN. How much did that amount to, that was divided in your home?
Mrs. OSWALD. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little
over $900--about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to
me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.
So about 3 weeks later--now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of
these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know
about the dates.
Mr. Thorne--from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an
envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--not
"and Marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks,
made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could
have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in
November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time.
But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me.
Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has
been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that
my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief
of police was being photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram--and I
have these things--you will have everything I have--to each one, the
same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald
should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at 2220
Thomas Place. I received no mail.
Three days later--I received no mail.
So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had.
And I knew it was a positive tip--I could feel sure this young man
was giving me the right information. I had much information that the
public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr.
Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down
and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals--we have this--my mail opened
and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence.
Now, what right--I am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all
through this that I am fighting for.
If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in
care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal
right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because
I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the
chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail
should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those
mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there
is quite a possibility that it was.
Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was
opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about
it.
First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail.
So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it.
I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne
doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail
from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not
give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So
nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me.
My rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. Every
newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee,
from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and
over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing
them things--because I was proud of the things I have, and I think,
gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different
picture of this boy.
There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came
to know that--a New York reporter had offered--he was going to write a
story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could
have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked
through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three
letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our
government.
But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any
information I have.
One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian
Army--I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next--the
letters?
Representative BOGGS. Was a colonel in what?
Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?
Representative BOGGS. One letter said he was a colonel in what?
Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army.
Would you like to look at these letters while I continue, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DULLES. Are these the lost letters?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, these are letters from Lee to me from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. I thought you said three were lost.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel
was lost--that the Secret Service men took--three letters--that would
be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they
were taken from my home.
Representative BOGGS. How did you get them back?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am going to tell the story, and I have witnesses.
So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness,
who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for
letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that
he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and
printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the
FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the
paper.
So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man--and I can
find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three
letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters.
Mr. RANKIN. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters
and other things?
Mrs. OSWALD. I got $50 for each letter. And I have the receipt.
Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to
him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. $150.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he published them?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Yes--he published the letters. It was published in the
New York Times, the three letters.
Mr. RANKIN. Then they were returned to you.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never
did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told
you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were
copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed
in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had,
he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the
Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had.
Mr. RANKIN. And you did not get paid for those at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--these are different letters. So they returned those
letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them.
But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a
receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that
I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the
paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of
what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I
had to sign a receipt for those three letters.
Am I making that clear now?
May I have some water, please?
Representative FORD. Are we going to get these letters in the record?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Let me get the letters in the record, then.
Mr. DOYLE. Let me go off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am
not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different
story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a
while.
What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's
uncle. The other two I am not quite sure.
Representative BOGGS. What does it say about her uncle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have to find the letter, sir.
I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with
me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does
not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the
Secret Service--because they are the Secret Service. But there are men
in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just
like in any other organization--let's face it. We have such men as
Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who
was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was
a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not
to be the right type.
I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known
defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police.
And my son--had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe
they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our
way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are
the man back of the title.
Mr. RANKIN. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter
identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is one I am sure of.
Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I
have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you
about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th--I
picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper--I will be through
with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th
of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered
Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody
was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night----
Mr. RANKIN. This was 1963, after the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my
daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the
time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just
thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask.
But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this
story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a
home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going
to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the
story of the woman offering Marina the home.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you
described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he
was in the Soviet Union.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three
letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to
give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible,
for you to do that. Is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was
sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet
Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have
to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would
be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in
other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the
Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And
I believe maybe I could--I would not want to state a fact that these
two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two
letters as the proper letters.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if
we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son
while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you
could look them over and see----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right.
Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is
all right with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr.
Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered
with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by
putting those stickers on we can help you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the
date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them
in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by
the dates.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179,
both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that
Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to
substitute copies.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced.
(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170
to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced,
that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from
the Soviet Union. And I think it would be better for our record if I
briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can
be compared with the number.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 180 bears the date of July 18, 1961, on the
envelope.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin--is that the American or the Russian postmark?
Mr. RANKIN. That is the American postmark.
Mr. DULLES. Time of receipt in this country?
Mr. RANKIN. That's right.
Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the
letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the
envelope, and you do not have that here?
Mrs. OSWALD. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I
have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase
was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night.
Mr. RANKIN. You have not produced it today, though.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first
letter I received from Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in
Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They
are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army."
Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United
States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that.
Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October
10, 1961. I also offer that.
In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in
accordance with our understanding.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when
you finish.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.
Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the
envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it.
Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961?
Mr. RANKIN. '61----
Mr. DULLES. It is all '61?
Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the
letter.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect.
Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex.
Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had
no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the
time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was
at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the
State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So
where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the
postmark proves the date.
As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is
just----
Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter?
Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959
that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen,
they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my
thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not
located.
Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of
the Metropole letter of 1959.
Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you
called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter
and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the
date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark.
Mr. RANKIN. That's correct.
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date
October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark
on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this
reference.
"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address
in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then
continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However,
her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire."
Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the
Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I
previously stated, had.
Now, may I say something here?
Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was
married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know.
But I have a record of both names.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183.
Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two
names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the
other by her stepfather?
Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald
testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name
appears on her papers as the father.
Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her
name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters
to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United
States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of
letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his
handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used
Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the
letters. That is what I find peculiar.
Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the
identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained
that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald
with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want
that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to
be shown.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on
that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now,
Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is
Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's
name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee
Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee
Lee Oswald. That I know of.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark
on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence.
Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter
itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on
the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185.
Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12,
1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186.
Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears
the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit
187.
Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the
letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer
Exhibit 188.
Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the
envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189.
Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22,
1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit
190.
Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is
January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191.
Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters?
Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything
I had to sign for.
Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took.
Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them.
Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears
a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is
February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast.
Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast
mail. I offer Exhibit 192.
Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped
on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193.
Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on
the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194.
Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the
envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195.
Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9,
1962. I offer Exhibit 196.
Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and
stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197.
Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on
the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but
there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198.
The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in
evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through
198 for identification, were received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May
I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from
what I can see from here.
Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is
Exhibit 198 you are speaking of?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter
of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian
letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is
quite a big undertaking.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all
right.
Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each
instance.
The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you
determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret
Service people that you described and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped.
Now, am I still at the Six Flags?
Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also
described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your
daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not
seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate
with her.
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her.
Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark
Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail.
Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how
you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have
to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16
that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories,
gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been
here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories.
Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go
through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been
doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story.
Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief.
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it
brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I
want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been
doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good.
Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did
not use that expression.
Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector"
and blown it up.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you
believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service
agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the
President.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say----
The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the
belief that there was such a conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one
sentence----
The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your
own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of
that, and then we will go to the other things.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long
story.
The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time.
Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and
tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers
for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they
were not in the order they are now.
The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop
whenever----
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this
as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if
I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell
you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation
among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these
stories I have told you are fact.
Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And
then I will say this is part of another story.
Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian
counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is
why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to
tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what
I based that on, too.
It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee
followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me
herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But
Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she
wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here.
Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you
that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to
bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing
me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not
forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing
me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are
throwing my mind off.
The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about
three or four today, complete stories.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue
about the order. I want you to tell your story----
Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if
this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr.
Doyle?
Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the
Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story.
Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you
advise the Commission, and I am certain that----
Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission
that I would like to say, that would take up some time.
Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th,
and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear
before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as
you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I
called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I
didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have
been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my
safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely
wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with
me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted
that protection.
Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have
Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my
request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me
and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank
and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested
protection."
I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4
o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together
and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring
consistently.
I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have
protection. I was leaving myself wide open.
So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?"
I said, "No, he is not."
He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do
you intend to do with the papers?"
I said, "The papers will stay with me."
He said, "Is your attorney in there?"
I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney."
He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put
sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault."
I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an
understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay
with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers
were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very
uneasy."
He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the
morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1
o'clock."
I said, "That is just fine."
Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to
buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had
supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort
Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we
picked up the papers before 6 o'clock.
Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night
until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were
circling the neighborhood.
Now, that is not complete protection.
I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I
requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just
shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is
not complete protection.
So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening
the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men
circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this
morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by
and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood
for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because
I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have
breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like,
and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me,
which this Fort Worth policeman did.
So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the
phone.
I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking
for Secret Service men all morning."
I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going
out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And
nobody ever came. I was not under protection.
So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders."
I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?"
She said, "He is on his way to your home."
This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written
down. 11:45.
So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not
go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I
was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was
on my way to Washington.
So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge
of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his
daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call
me?"
So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later
Mr. Sorrels called.
He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular
case?"
And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and
forth conversation.
So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire
conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the
authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over
him, so I can get complete protection."
Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald."
So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line.
But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot.
He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to
Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And
if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she
gets to Washington."
So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that
Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has
protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me,
to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some
place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do."
And then I got protection.
Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers,
and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection?
I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself
called Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr.
Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call.
So why didn't I have complete protection?
There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be
answered.
Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two
Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite
sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all
of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex.
I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it
is.
But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your
daughter-in-law?"
I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day."
"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your
daughter-in-law?"
And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing
my daughter-in-law."
Which, to me, is a fact.
So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown
and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what
makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the
Secret Service was when it happened."
And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a
report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that."
And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully,
"Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law."
So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law
doesn't want to see you?"
And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I
have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not
want to see me."
And Mr. Sorrels never told me.
Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to
quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact.
When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this
quizzing.
The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had
complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever
since the testifying began?"
I said, "No, sir; it is not true."
Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2
weeks? I don't understand these things.
Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection.
Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today?
It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story
that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to
get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story,
gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the
record.
The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I
understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must
make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock.
Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow
afternoon.
Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night
trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I
break down.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way.
So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Tuesday, February 11, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale
Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and
Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to
proceed?
Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor----
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for
Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the
matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time,
in one capacity or another in the past.
I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better
advise the Commission about the point.
Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in
her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the
time.
The CHAIRMAN. True.
Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be
straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the
matter.
Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice
Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock
plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for
these few hours.
The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me.
The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane.
Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice----
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney
for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the
two.
Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me
to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr.
Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is
not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect
his views in the matter.
Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room
exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood
his response.
Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald
for just a minute or two.
The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
You may take another room, if you wish.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will
not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for
subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will
not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may
continue with the hearing.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are
fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to
lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no
proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here.
But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything.
My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags
and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony,
and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under
protective custody, and I was not.
I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important
enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing,
that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective
custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it.
These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two
Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure
whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a
conspiracy to assassinate the President.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no----
Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a
plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved.
And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it.
Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have
made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is
a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I
specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower.
Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the
statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department
saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship.
Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday
morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter
that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the
dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen
know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing
corresponds with what I have.
So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he
has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting,
and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he
said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter.
Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey
Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And
I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the
agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original
of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is
available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of
correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the
matter.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this
particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not
correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the
State Department wrote this particular letter.
Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department
wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for
Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters
from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will
present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very
conflicting testimony.
You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in
conference with three officials. And this was another Administration.
Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a
little from the news.
Lee's defection was in one Administration--right?
And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration.
And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not
impossible.
So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied.
Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to
assassinate the President, though.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the
assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I
cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of
those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President
Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated
is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men
treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday.
So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way.
Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that
will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate
President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard?
Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr.
Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And
I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for
a long time.
The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina
shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second
time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack
Lengett--she said, "You no have job."
In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go
to--"You don't have job."
Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving
her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."
I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love
her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you
how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama.
You don't have job."
Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies
all along. She was not supposed to speak English.
I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as
interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that
is a question.
Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English.
Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English
at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been
publicized over and over.
Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that
month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression
is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.
Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the
President?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I
explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they
had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many
friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give
her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina
now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the
Six Flags.
Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and
that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.
But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside.
I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face
this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things.
So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything
else--circumstantial evidence, let's say.
I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw
him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial
evidence.
I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this.
The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our
President properly.
Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret
Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how
Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many,
many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering.
So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not
the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to
consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days.
When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important
about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a
witness. You don't have to take my word for it.
Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you
to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home
and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there
the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She
didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she
saw the gun the night before.
The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going
to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have
photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.
And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son
being the guilty one in this particular house.
All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this
particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.
Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the
conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy.
Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with
these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy
because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy
about that.
And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl.
I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to
have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.
Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is
the assassin of President Kennedy.
You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because
no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international
affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey
Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or
Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that
many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible.
And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are
investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of
sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all
thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from
what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they
saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came.
Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before
he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he
had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught
a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his
home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the
policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater.
In 29 minutes time it cannot be done.
So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a
human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he
could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is
perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he
did it. Because it is utterly impossible.
And I do not believe my son did it.
I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the
sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was
completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that
effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that
he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never
did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet
in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me,
an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved.
Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation.
She had turned against me twice.
You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to
tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My
testimony is true.
So now she has lied there, I have found out.
And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have
to face that.
Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in
the conspiracy to assassinate the President?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I
think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much
circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police
has that he is a murderer, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there.
That is what I base it on.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way,
because I cannot, almost.
Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right.
If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to
speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent,
and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more
papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your
claim that Marina Oswald was----
Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an
agent. I cannot prove these things.
But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because
if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who
shot President Kennedy.
Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your
son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else
conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is
just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the
type person to be suspicious and imagine things.
You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my
children were never tied to my apron strings.
And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement
that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he
wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he
studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because
that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my
statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he
has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that.
I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas,
as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to
Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted
that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that
would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a
conspiracy to assassinate the President?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be
part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in
this, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved.
Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof,
sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be
closed, like Mr. Wade said.
But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has.
Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were
involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I
have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this
particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent.
And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all
witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?
So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am
wrong, fine. But you may learn something.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that
was?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that.
I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not
give a name.
But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he
might be.
Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what
you think.
Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is
very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that.
But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of
the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower,
because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is
incorrect.
Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but
while we are here, I will continue this.
And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to
you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show
you. I am the only person that has this copy.
I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them
up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can
get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more
testimony than this. I have testimony, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high
official you spoke about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do
not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper
time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said,
it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have
papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are
going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion.
Now, this particular instance----
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent
matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow.
We laid all the groundwork for that.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing
that he was an agent.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories.
Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would
like very much to have it.
Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because
Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow.
Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we
don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking
for.
I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming
that you gentlemen do not have.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to
go story by story.
Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think
there are some parts you possibly can know about.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an
agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr.
Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all
morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had
everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr.
Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just
so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again.
Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs.
Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw
that they took it.
Well, I can be telling the story about it.
It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram.
I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief
Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will
go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that.
A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on
a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red
Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And
telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and
he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home.
Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came
with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there
direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in
Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the
original from Moscow.
I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the
paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the
International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to
contact you."
She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?"
I said, "I don't know."
"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?"
I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia."
"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get
back, they should stay over there."
So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help.
Would you please contact, give me the address of the International
Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to
come home?"
She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee.
I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was
approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She
called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the
international committee.
So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to
find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he
gave me no satisfaction.
Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State
Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex.,
and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and
help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I
had no success--could they help me out?
So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International
Rescue Committee. That you have.
And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part.
Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help
anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State
Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was
delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and
daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to
come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here.
So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from
the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would
she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for
me.
She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key."
This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse.
I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and
you don't have a key?"
"No, I don't."
"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your
attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to
the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important."
So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came.
So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and
handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter.
This is dated January 22, 1962.
So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the
Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex.
She called me and told me she had received word from the International
Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell,
"Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?"
So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was
her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no
part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out.
But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is
here--she cut it out.
Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department
on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come
as a surprise."
So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the
International Rescue Committee.
"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does
not come as a surprise."
I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her
feelings about a boy in Russia.
Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the
word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International
Rescue Committee?
I would like to know who from the State Department called the
International Rescue Committee.
There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary?
Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary,
a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have
here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the
International Rescue Committee.
And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped.
I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from
the State Department--yes, sir, I would.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I
say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed
program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It
could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know
who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not
going to get the money. Read the letter.
Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that
is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that,
that would decide everything around here.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you
these things.
Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that
is something different.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have
all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I
am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.
Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have
the proof that there was a conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof,
because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you
gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did
have the proof, sir.
I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be
someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in
this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but
that doesn't make him a man back of the title.
Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the
conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different
conspiracy?
Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she
said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.
And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her
daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.
The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this
particular source.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating
as to that being a possibility.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony,
if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you
understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I
had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking
all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would
have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it
speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I
am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I
believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could
be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze
the papers that I have, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your
assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us?
Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with
my son's life from the very beginning.
Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to----
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot
survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and
can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot
answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not
answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only
way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man,
and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law.
And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this
Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early
childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr.
Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very
beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the
magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to
say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can
show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this
Commission.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these
other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing
to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you
base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it.
Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first
point, that will be fine.
But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have
my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early
childhood.
Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory?
Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this
particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this,
gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have
witnesses that will be called--is a letter----
Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we
left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now,
because of what happened before. The note----
Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School
by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note?
Mr. RANKIN. We do.
Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately
October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955.
Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let
me see.
Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the
State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to
page 11 and you will find the note you referred to.
Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise.
This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego.
And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was
going to San Diego.
Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever.
Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the
7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note.
If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note.
Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something
Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the
principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand
you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee."
Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me.
So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit.
Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think
her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for
years--she will witness this.
He said, "Mother, I have quit school."
Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of
went along with it. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you
are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald."
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in
jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of
vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I
would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me.
So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop
where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and
I have quit school."
Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner
of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a
very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I
became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with
Lee.
So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October
18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines.
So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I
would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy.
Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines.
"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old."
I said, "Lee. We cannot do that."
He said, "Everybody else"--
I said, "No, I am not going to do it."
For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying
his age.
So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in
New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I
had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That
Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the
school and told them we were going out of town.
He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a
lot of boys join the service at age 16."
So he could not advise me.
My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the
complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who
also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let
him join the Marines."
I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux
Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans.
And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that
particular address.
Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part
of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous
apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that
part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where
the homes are.
So I was very upset.
There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I
said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the
boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was
frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16.
So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him
join the Marines. It is done all the time."
Now, I was not too happy about this situation.
Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La.,
was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in
uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him
and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very
vague about the thing.
I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are
liable to send him overseas."
He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we
have here."
He saw nothing wrong with it.
What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but
not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy
to join the Marines. He came to my home personally.
So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing.
Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps
could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order
to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to
an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate,
and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up.
I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him
goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines.
I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but
accept the fact to let him go.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt.
Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?
Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend.
Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well.
Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be
able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that.
Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am
not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this.
So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young.
Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind,
or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that.
All right.
Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it
by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was
home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that.
Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library.
And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the
title was not.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it.
But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly
it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these
things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read
subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a
mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a
reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps.
So that is fine.
What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part.
He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine
manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and
have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism.
Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the
Marines--that whole year.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year?
Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a
messenger for Tujaque and Son.
Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you.
His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was
a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends.
Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his
age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming
to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where
they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was
with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir.
And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school
for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery
department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe
salesman.
That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there.
And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job
was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory.
And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that
year?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this
dental laboratory job--that is correct.
So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to
live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl
friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the
Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join
the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen,
I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent
time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my
furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother
and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would
not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling.
When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines.
The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was
the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth
certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to
send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the
paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand
that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an
affidavit of his father's death.
And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th.
From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed
about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the
evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so
he did join the Marines at age 18.
Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before,
that has something to do with it. Lee----
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he
was an agent on?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles.
I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17?
Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please
forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me.
Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol.
Do you have that information, gentlemen?
I don't think you have.
Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my
papers. I put this in my bag.
I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform
of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are
going back.
And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service.
The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He
went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform,
with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He
is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do
research on all of this, and do it alone.
This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee
the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined
the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this.
And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee
is not supposed to have any friends.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir.
Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these
that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he
was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean
at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the
other young men, as I told you before.
Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol.
And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil
Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that
caused you to think he was an agent, have you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I
am saying.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think----
Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my
home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and
started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go
into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined
the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself.
Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer.
Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy.
Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you
have told us?
Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story.
Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer.
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual.
He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general,
if you ever get in the Marines."
Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea----
Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea.
Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by
this recruiting officer?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist
literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine
Corps?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the
Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever
became an agent or was going to become an agent on?
Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three
Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee
returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program
was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that
is a lot of propaganda."
It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have
Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right,
gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything
politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas
of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that
list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on
the list.
Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from?
Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot
of comment about this all through.
Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you
before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy
and the whole life, and you do not, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to.
Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them,
because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every
letter from Lee tells me something.
When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in
Washington a while."
Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union."
"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship."
If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every
letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother,
these are facts."
I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these
things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned.
Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called
defection, for this reason.
Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time
now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me
from New Orleans is what I need.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to
Washington?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the
letter with me. They are at the hotel.
Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the
13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not
know. And I do not know if he went to Washington.
As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case.
So I don't know when he arrived in New York.
Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home
with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my
book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days
with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way.
Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that
way.
The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his
being in Russia.
This is the letter.
"Dear Mother"-----
Mr. DULLES. Is that dated?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released
from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr.
Rankin.
And he stayed with me 3 days.
And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He
stayed with me 3 days.
"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would
have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now."
"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go
now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different
from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just
remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans
because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see
Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land.
Lee."
Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation,
gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they
hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true
conclusion.
Now, what would you think about this?
A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to
Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother
he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the
letter.
It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia.
So you would read the letter that way.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the
Marines?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from
your son during the time he was in the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see,
gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I
could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This
is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red
Cross--when I told him about my illness.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting
out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any
other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters.
What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he
left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers
and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no
place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call
the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week,
gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and
food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary
was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to
be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to
leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would.
But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go.
She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police."
So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home.
When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with
me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not
let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from
Lee in the seabag.
And so I don't have the seabag.
You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is
defecting to Russia.
We all agree there.
Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother.
After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee
arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when
he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen.
And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived
lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house.
And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits
evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies.
The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to
do is to move and find a decent place."
I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the
floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room.
So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother."
So morning came.
I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will
have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick
up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able
to manage, and you will get a job."
He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out
thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for
about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I
want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where
there is some real money."
Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the
Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have
to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have
gone through.
I didn't answer Lee.
This is the way I do the children.
The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may
continue.
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't
know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in
the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert
had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not
help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he
had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was
to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me
$100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the
job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection.
So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole
Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959.
Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little
money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little
note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate
defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my
son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money.
So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof.
Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the
letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I
have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600,
because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in
Moscow.
Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December
1959.
Mr. RANKIN. But he----
Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know
if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he
needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet.
I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection,
by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I
saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use,
he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty."
We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee
had a normal childhood.
And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things
bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment
of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going
to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another
story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen.
Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking
about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he
came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and
talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10.
And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And
he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was
an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not
have that, I do.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter
about his booking passage?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You read the original?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the
bottom.
Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200.
The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter,
and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking
you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of
the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told
him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was
stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that
is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted
the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do
this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a
louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad
points, but so do all of us.
Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201.
The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from
Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one
I am showing you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to
substitute a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and
received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in
an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through
all this paper. You will have all of this.
Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20
bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I
thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen
I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will
copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank
and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all
went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the
$20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money
order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I
understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long.
So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful.
I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money.
And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to
Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr.
Stanfield----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent.
Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I
asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected.
Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never
thought Lee was a Russian agent.
Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my
recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you
then thought he was an American agent.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am
going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his
childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you
would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything
important. But now we have letters from the State Department.
Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State
Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed
them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer
College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know
whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So
I made a personal trip to Washington.
I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and
borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had
a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I
have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was
3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I
took a coach and sat up.
I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the
White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the
offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked
if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he
said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived
here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock."
So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over
the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they
would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk,
and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was
in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have
come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to
speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got
off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what
I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so
evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that
you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet
Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I
told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs.
Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with
you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an
interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would
rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said,
"I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am
unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with
you."
So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend
a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how
reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will
be near the State Department and convenient to you."
So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there
were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No,
I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I
come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed.
I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and
I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at
10:30.
But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in
the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't
want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the
young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a
start."
So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have
all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this
story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11
o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am
awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible
snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home."
So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the
other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct.
So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am
showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me,
gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do
you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a
U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate
it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness,"
on that order.
I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without
medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman.
So I said that.
Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you
won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a
foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think
my son should be home with me, is really what I implied.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and
say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I
thought that he needed to be home.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might
know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet
Union, he might like it better there than he did here?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and
they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I
said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector.
If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is
an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an
individual.
And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same
way about it." That was their answer.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way
of life better than ours?
Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have
said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want
him also to do what he wants to do."
So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately
8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter
from the State Department informing me of my son's address.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence
he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect
you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent
at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State
Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean
it was not discussed. I am positive of that.
Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they
did say that to you, that would be incorrect?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is
incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is
an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do.
Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8
weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State
Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have,
if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son
wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip
to Washington.
Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been
telling you all along.
Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22
I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to
return back to the United States. You have that, sir?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian
girl--approximately 5 weeks later.
Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States,
5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding
date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S.
Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks
later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we
know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with
money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but
two on two in my books makes four.
I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been
published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent,
because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar
that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have
all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And
then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is
that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time.
And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of
money to come home.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl
because they ordered him to?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that
kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me
that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you
came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married
to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and
everything. So they seemed to be well off.
I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the
postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that
is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to
believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as
individuals, have a right to our own life.
Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together
with you, didn't you, for some time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I
think they were in love with each other.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an
agent and ordered to marry her that he married her?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew
Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was--he had a
girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent--I have to say "if." Then
he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it
is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will
have contacts.
Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers
from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many
subversive--now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or
Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have
all these things, he would not have his finger in everything.
He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be
a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the
President.
But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in
everything.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by everything?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Cuba--because we know in New Orleans he was arrested
for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones
I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive
material.
Mr. RANKIN. What about books? Did he read books much while he was
living with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the
library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All
kinds of books. I tried, when he defected--I went to the library to
find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not
give me that information. They said the only way they could give that
information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise
they have no record.
Now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe New Orleans is different, I
don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information.
Stated he had books--the assassination of Huey Long and things of that
sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex.,
they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book
is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this.
Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee
read continuously.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to
lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because
he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir. Not at any time at all.
Mr. RANKIN. You think she loved him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe
that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked
America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot
of little things that happened--that Marina wanted to come to America.
Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did.
Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You
don't mean that your son didn't love her.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a
girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this
girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of
Russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take
her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that what you mean?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that.
Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it was because your son loved her, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am
telling you why he would do this--in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a
5-week period in here.
Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing
to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about
the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made
public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think
that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her
here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's
duty.
Mr. RANKIN. You think your son was capable of doing that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I think my son was an agent. I certainly do.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was
an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper.
And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has
been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or
not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the
newspapers.
Mr. RANKIN. That is newspaper accounts you are talking about now?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And as I said about the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. What about your own knowledge?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I
wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence.
I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then
the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent--all of his
correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in
the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold
you--"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You
are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a
copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin.
And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you
in Minsk."
Mr. RANKIN. They would say that about you if you were over there, or
anyone.
Mrs. OSWALD. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always
been an American citizen--according to all of my papers from the State
Department.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. And they would say that about anyone--all right, I will
grant you that. You are probably right.
Mr. RANKIN. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see.
Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all
through this affair.
Mr. RANKIN. They would give that to any of us.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right--so you are telling me that. But this man is
married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and
could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is
another thing.
The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the
letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not
raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a
loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends,
or do you have any relatives--800 and some odd dollars they needed. And
I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.--one who is a very
respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen
award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him
that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is
trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money,
and if he knew of any way possible he could help me.
He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper
has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs.
Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have
any use for."
And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I
said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a
boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's
say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back.
Are you telling me you won't help him?"
"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for
anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee--made
it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are
down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy.
Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he
wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I
did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help.
Mr. RANKIN. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try
to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from
other sources before they could advance the money?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that
I tried awfully hard, but with no success.
Mr. RANKIN. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard,
were they not?
Mrs. OSWALD. It could be, yes. It could be.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they
asked you----
Mrs. OSWALD. I think--well, as you say, they would probably help
anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and
because all these documents and everything are handled through the
U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington--which was red
carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at
9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that
is wonderful treatment.
Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. They might have done that----
Mrs. OSWALD. I haven't been that fortunate before.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated
you nicely.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious
to me. The Administration was most gracious to me.
Mr. RANKIN. I don't see why you should think that because they treated
you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And
this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other
things that you don't know--the life and everything. I happen to think
this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back
it up with these things.
This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a
child.
Mr. RANKIN. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not know.
Mr. RANKIN. You have no idea?
Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have
approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be
proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for
a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year
and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She
is going to live quite a while.
When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy
Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to
3:30 o'clock nurse--I went 3 to 11--and my patient cried and said that
they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case.
That the woman at the rest home refused to have me.
Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But
I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there
might have been--hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of
life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And
then the mother loses her job.
Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has
$35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know.
Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and
drabs--is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money
come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she
might have more than that. That was the amount made public--$35,000.
And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no
money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come
from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had
proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to
bring all this out--if I had proof he was an agent.
Mr. RANKIN. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring
him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the
government could just pay his way?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an
agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to
know. I am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. I
am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the
public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what
you mean by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he
was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to
come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a
very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to
get the money to come home.
Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian
girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money
immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to
someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then
they have an excuse to loan him the money.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red
Cross in addition to his pay--that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross,
when he was over there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what he did with that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here?
Mr. RANKIN. The Soviet Red Cross.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I know nothing about that.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount
equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red
Cross.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand.
Mr. RANKIN. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics
factory. You understood that.
Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was
working in a radio factory. All right, fine.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the
Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Now, explain to me--when you say the Red Cross of
the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union,
or this is part of the Russian Red Cross?
Mr. RANKIN. This is part of the Russian Red Cross.
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know that.
Mr. RANKIN. It is not any part of the American Red Cross.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know that.
Mr. RANKIN. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I
understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity
there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government
itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported
by the public.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not know that.
Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned
from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home,
and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said--up until
this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people,
like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She
looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married
her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and
Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is
all little things of that sort.
As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am
going--this is way back--in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is
many, many things that come up.
Mr. RANKIN. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I
don't understand that.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He
is making a point. And what I was going to make a point--Lee loved his
work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin.
Even coming back--he was a military man. And that has also been stated
in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District
Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed
that.
Mr. RANKIN. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there
something he did when he came back?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a
Marine, for one thing. And John Edward--that is his career--14
years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a
servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he
read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would
brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in
Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000."
Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went
to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling.
And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia.
I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And
Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee
learns Russian in the Marines.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after
he returned?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then,
of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't
talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I
was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping
he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me
about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export
business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you
have to do--particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell
the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that.
And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went
into that--"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get
along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in
these circumstances." So on the third day--I knew he wanted to do this,
but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the
third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I
am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby.
Mr. RANKIN. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation,
about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was
stamped "import and export" on his passport.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big
writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the
passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport,
"export and import" stamped.
Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am
saying this--and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this
type person. It is because of my life.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he
had this passport?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he
spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was
Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into
that--the application?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, the first that I knew--no, I am wrong. It is not the
first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines
before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the
Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I
told you about, that I do not have.
Mr. DULLES. Would you give us the date of that letter?
Mrs. OSWALD. The other letter would have been--let's see. Lee was told
in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be
about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee.
And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in
these homes.
Mr. DULLES. '57 or '58?
Mrs. OSWALD. 1960.
Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961.
"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a
slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The
first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April
19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the
20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of
Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however,
makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope
that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your
travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier
date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case,
please drop us a line."
So that is how I knew that Lee--I opened his mail. I didn't know
whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew--I won't
go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you.
He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them.
Now, one thing I have forgotten.
While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee
had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that.
Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the
application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper
just said he arrived in Russia--until I went to the State Department.
So what I am trying to say--I may be forgetting a lot of important
things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department
told me.
I don't think I am forgetting too much.
But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard.
This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had.
This is the only application there is. So this is something new for
you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a
copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man.
"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and
hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis,
stamp collecting"--Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private
reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books,
philosophy, and so on."
Representative FORD. That is an application to where?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer
School.
"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school
for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMcA, and AYA association."
I don't know what that is.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this copy?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped
me--helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim
Wright was not successful.
I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know.
And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim
Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to
Washington. And that I had heard from Lee.
Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had
written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the
deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer.
So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see
what we can do."
So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to
Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application.
Mr. DOYLE. They may be interested in knowing where the college is.
Mrs. OSWALD. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur
Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School.
Completed high school by correspondence."
I have that. His original correspondence in the service--completed high
school.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that part of his Marine work--he finished high school
that way?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None."
And then I read his books.
Now, we go down to here.
"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on
contemporary American life."
Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the
Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding
of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with
Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal
education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my
knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral
atmosphere."
This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of
the boy which has been not told in the paper.
I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences.
The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign
lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press
conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that
are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect.
But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular
statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the
courage to print it."
There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference,
and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in
the paper.
I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now.
Mr. RANKIN. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert
Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University
of Turku, Turku, Finland."
Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand--from this college,
dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin--dated 1960.
Lee is in Russia.
And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before
Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you.
But I don't understand that.
"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation."
Mr. RANKIN. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at
the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I am saying--and I am going to stick to my
story--that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I
cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I
didn't hear from his own lips.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that he decided to defect after this application,
then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the
boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my
speculation.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether
he is an agent by this.
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want
proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep
telling you--I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents
leading to it.
Mr. RANKIN. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are
giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have
about these various things that we can rely on.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it
upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not
have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof
my son is innocent. I do not have proof.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police
do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything,
it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence
here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot
President Kennedy.
"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency
to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little
German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any
serious illness or nervous disturbances: No."
Mr. RANKIN. Is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there.
"Does such a condition still exist: No."
I don't understand this--do you?
"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or
nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain."
Then he has a dash.
"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No."
And then he gives as references--you have this, so I won't go into it.
A chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record?
Mr. RANKIN. No, we can offer this.
Did you know any of those people that he showed as references?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And
this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College.
"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to
June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age,
20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal
in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality:
American. Exact address: McAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA.
Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so
I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of
purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald."
Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the
school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because
it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not
appearing.
Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I
worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made.
This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other
complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from
newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the
type person I am. But according to the newspaper--of course, really
nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular
instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just
name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric
treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about.
The CHAIRMAN. Up to 16?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went
into that.
And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr.
Rankin, in a letter.
The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into.
The CHAIRMAN. Lee what?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee being an agent.
But I have really gone into that.
The CHAIRMAN. So really, there are only two more?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life.
Now, I would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it.
And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a
magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it.
Now, this is out of the Post Magazine.
There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which,
is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy--I think it is the Post.
I will get that information for you.
Mr. DOYLE. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you
believe they will find out from this?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would rather not comment on that at this particular
moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to
study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record.
Mr. DULLES. What does this purport to be of?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the
assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see.
The CHAIRMAN. What do you see?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, all right.
I see Marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be Marina.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you show us, please?
Mrs. OSWALD. And, again, I am saying--I cannot be sure this is the
picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly
be Marina and June.
Mr. RANKIN. And that is the girl----
Mrs. OSWALD. This girl holding the baby.
Mr. RANKIN. Right next to the door?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the
hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203.
And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the
assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. And you pointed out the girl on the left column----
Mrs. OSWALD. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. Do we know the time this was taken?
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the time this was taken?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was
shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the
car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is
supposed to have been shot.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Wednesday, February 12, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale
Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite
Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
We will proceed to the hearing.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to
us this morning before we start the questioning?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three
things that are worrying me.
Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned
officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir,
you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages?
Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-eight, I think.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney--I am very concerned
about that, because I want to know--if it is my testimony--because the
little while--the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the
courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to
investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir.
And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the
starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say
ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have
testified.
Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is
fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to
know what I am supposed to have said.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have
said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that
you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it
before you leave the building.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it is very important to know that.
Thank you, Justice Warren.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we
furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that will be satisfactory. You may do that, yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I certainly need to know what I am supposed to have said.
There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr.
Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain?
Mr. RANKIN. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some
interviews with your son.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon
myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were
investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI.
So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who
recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and
to write the letters.
Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned
from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain--in the meantime he
had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me,
supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. I do not know
this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee--my daughter-in-law
is a witness there--"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you
voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me
your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the
one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite
interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story."
So Lee voluntarily went with Mr. Fain to the FBI office.
Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He
wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused."
Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you
see--because Lee went and gave the story.
And I want to make sure you know where he is now.
I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March--I am ahead
of my story.
The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John
Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name.
"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has
never been such a person as Mr. John Fain."
So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this
information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to
October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man
to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr.
John Fain is that old.
The CHAIRMAN. We will check that out.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have his last address in Houston, if you don't have it.
All right. Fine.
Now, one thing about Lee being an agent I read.
The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the
FBI--this is from newspaper accounts--said that Lee always walked a few
feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered
about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I
am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk
ahead to protect his wife.
That is my reasoning--as an agent.
The letter that is missing--and Mr. Doyle can verify this--the first
letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia.
And this letter stated--and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it
in one of the magazines--as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's
letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't
know.
But his first letter, he told me not to send him any money.
"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay
me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also,
send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a
book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984.
Mr. RANKIN. What date was this you sent that?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing--the first
letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money--because I had
used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost--and
I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for
using his money, because Lee would help me.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean that was a refund.
Mrs. OSWALD. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I
also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no
way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay
Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do
not have it. So that is very important.
Mr. DOYLE. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that
you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we
did not find such a letter among those papers.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I
didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the
letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Liebeler said he had seen references to the letter.
Mrs. OSWALD. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the
letters I had sold, as I told you.
Yes, sir, you are correct there.
Now, there is another thing that we have skipped.
While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas.
Now, this is a printing shop, where Lee worked.
Now, this is another thing.
Mr. RANKIN. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about,
wasn't it, in your testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee
was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and
I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the
father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian--the
girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He
said--this is the part--that Lee had worked at a place prior to his
place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for
Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or
thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the
Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house,
and saw this couple.
Mr. RANKIN. October 12th was a Friday.
Mrs. OSWALD. Was a Friday. All right.
Now, so, let's see where I am.
This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me.
I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday.
So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before--the
Sunday of the week before then.
Mr. RANKIN. That would be October 7, 1962.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly,
because it is very important.
He claimed that Lee worked another place first.
Now, do you know if Lee----
The CHAIRMAN. Let's don't--we will go into those things.
Mrs. OSWALD. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you
go into it?
The CHAIRMAN. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We
will go into those things very thoroughly.
Just go ahead with your story.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, this is a lie, and I want to know about this lie.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, you have told us.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have not finished, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't
question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't know about questioning.
Mr. DOYLE. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go
ahead and give the Commission all the information you have.
Mrs. OSWALD.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a
wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother
of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for,
to get all information possible to come to a conclusion.
And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee
was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before,
I think that is very important information.
The CHAIRMAN. We will check on that.
Go right ahead with your own story.
Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the
Commission's time, sir.
Mr. DOYLE. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the
Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in
their own judgment.
Mr. RANKIN.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you
a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs.
Marguerite Oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on November 25,
1963, an interview by J. M. Howard.
Mr. DOYLE.. Thank you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, one thing we have not covered was Lee's discharge.
The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just a minute?
Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a
copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. RANKIN. That is right, that is the one requested.
The CHAIRMAN. And the one you were speaking of----
Mr. RANKIN. As a 28-page document.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes--all right.
Now, you may continue, Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.
This is Lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where I come in.
The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee
was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the
copies of this, I am sure.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do
not have the story, Mr. Rankin.
It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for
discharge, reason of unfitness.
Well. I wrote to the U.S. Marine Corps--now, where is the copy of my
letter?
I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And
he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the
Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter.
I asked--well, he will get me the letter, I am sure.
So then I will read the answer to my letter.
Is that satisfactory?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Liebeler is going to get the copy that he has.
Now, can you tell the Commission when you first learned about this
matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed,
Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of
addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to
say I got it some time later than the original.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, does this involve the question of the undesirable
discharge?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that,
later Governor Connally?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I never did write to him.
Mr. RANKIN. All right. Will you tell us what happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter.
And this is the answer to the letter.
I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points
to make here.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who told you that--the name of the man?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the
captains there.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Told me who to write to.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR,
26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet
citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted
by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of
officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated
from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right
to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would
assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960
informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been
informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current
address, and that he has left the United States without permission,
it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at
this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by
certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board.
Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the
board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward
them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature
must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant,
United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3,
Reserve Section."
Now, my letter is important.
Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to
know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf
of my son, and this was addressed to me.
Then I received a letter addressed to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.
By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for--I need my
letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and
said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent
information to that fact.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the
next number.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. This is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable
discharge.
Mrs. Oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of
the envelope. And this letter.
Mr. RANKIN. That is a very poor copy.
Mrs. OSWALD. Is this the letter we taped?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe so, no.
Mrs. OSWALD. I know we taped one, because we could not copy it.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you read it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. "I desire to inform"----
Mr. RANKIN. That is your letter of April 10, 1960?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And who did you send it to?
Mr. LIEBELER. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do
have a transcription of it here.
Mrs. OSWALD. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act
in his behalf."
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter
to mark as Exhibit 205.
I ask you if Exhibit 205 is a correct transcription of your letter.
MRS. OSWALD. Yes.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for
identification.)
Mrs. OSWALD. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the
country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to
request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to
be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such
discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his
behalf."
So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee
Harvey Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state
whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter
that you know about?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me,
that is right, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies
of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibits 204 and 205.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, with those numbers.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information
that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this
return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with
me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in
Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country.
I would like to know why.
That is another reason why I think that Lee was probably an agent.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain
that a little more?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the
dishonorable discharge.
Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not
have the proof of the dishonorable discharge.
Mr. RANKIN. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the
one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him
for legal reasons?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, because, legally--I am glad you brought up the
point, Mr. Rankin.
Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I
read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I
was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf
because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and
sent this--yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. They may have felt you had not been given authority to act.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what they may feel and what they should do--I am
saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I
want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or
dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return.
I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded
and my son's.
I make that statement for the record.
Now, we shall go to Lee's childhood.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son
that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows
Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of
psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy--I volunteered to help
my country in every way possible--to let the Commission have everything
that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable
pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these
pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of
these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story,
sir. And they are the only pictures in existence.
I have sold a few pictures in order to live.
But the way I have done it--the photographer had this picture in
particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to
me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost,
sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write.
So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a
child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for
the record.
Am I correct, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. That is our way of proceeding, yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give
me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used?
The CHAIRMAN. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you
have something that you consider your personal property, that you do
not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it.
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not say, sir, I did not want to give it to the
Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the
matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be
helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to
introduce them or not.
But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation
upon the use that it might make of them.
Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute
them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself
in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it
whatever is necessary to develop the facts.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like
for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just
wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any
way. For some reason or other--I am not putting it into words--but
these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them.
And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that
correct--because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New
Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in.
Am I not correct, Mr. Doyle?
Mr. DOYLE. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the
introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily
involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in
the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no
assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers.
I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into
the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the
investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the
Executive order.
But they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any
blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you
completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever,
that you retain the pictures yourself.
The choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present
the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they
will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made
of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their
purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the Commission. But
the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives
you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those
circumstances.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are
telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel
actually I have no choice.
You have to understand I am not an attorney.
Mr. DOYLE. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under
subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has
advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit
to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely
up to you.
The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you
no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of
them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is
required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation.
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to
have all pictures that I have.
Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me.
Maybe it is.
Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have
the pictures?
I am afraid that they may get lost.
The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether
a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable,
moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you
that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to
see them, and they might be helpful--I don't know, because I don't know
what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in.
But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you
appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those
documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your
possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in
your testimony or not, as you please.
But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use
that it will make of them.
Mrs. OSWALD. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just
now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission--and
yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the
Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I say they might be. I don't know. I have never seen
them.
But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please.
If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of
the Commission, you may do so.
But the Commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony.
Mrs. OSWALD. I want the Commission to have this.
Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's
life and my life--but also I need to protect myself financially,
because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will
mean--these are valuable pictures.
I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty.
What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may
somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get
money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir,
and then----
The CHAIRMAN. Not those that you have given to the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--but with another----
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for
us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and
your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a
free choice to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice
that you may make.
Mrs. OSWALD. May I confer with my lawyer for about 10 minutes?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess, and you may talk to him.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. Come to order, please.
Mrs. OSWALD. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place
after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there
just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home
from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of
the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the
keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man
the keys.
Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked
there, sir, a few days.
I read that afterwards.
If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it
is hard for me to think of everything.
I believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed.
I have decided--and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only
good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the
assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going
to keep my personal pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.
Mrs. OSWALD. If at any time in the future that you would like to have
these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give
them to the Commission.
There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you
asked me--Governor Connally's letter.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee
Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just
written from the newspaper article.
"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S.
Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary
steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all
means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S.
citizen, an ex-serviceman."
Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a
dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt
like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such
a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now.
I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature.
He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his
country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he
wanted to right the wrong.
So I do not consider this a threat.
He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper--trying to get
this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said
he was very polite.
This is not a threat.
This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time,
newspaper talk, and so on and so forth.
I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a
dishonorable discharge, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything against Governor
Connally?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when
I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy--we had many
copies--you showed me the copy--I gave him the copy and told him--I had
written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did
not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know.
But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin,
of the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about
it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem."
So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of
this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know.
I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I
shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and
my now dead son."
I expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake.
I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ
all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I
intended to do that. That is my life's work.
I have the name of the man I talked to.
Chief Justice Warren--I will start from Lee as baby, before I get to
this.
Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother,
Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee,
he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey--his
grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald.
Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a
heart attack, coronary thrombosis.
Lee was a very happy baby.
I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe
that a mother should be home with her children.
I don't want to get into my story, though.
Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a
bicycle, he had everything that other children had.
Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child--I have said
this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959--Lee seemed
to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a
way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced.
Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the
stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal
there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping
habits. He could converse--and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when
he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals.
Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and
even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir.
And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age
9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an
emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said,
"Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born."
He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been
born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of
that sort.
He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But
most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in
the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. That was
important.
And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee
would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and
there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said
about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air
that that plane took.
Lee read very, very important things. And any and everything he could
do.
Yet he played Monopoly, played baseball.
He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work
with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going
to catch cold."
And I considered that, sir, a very normal life.
I am probably forgetting some things.
So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956--am I correct--that Robert
joined the Marines?
No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex.,
until 1952.
So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone.
Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400
Ewing Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because
my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New
York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has
now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been
approximately 8 or 9 years--I may be off because that is approximately.
So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home
and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York.
But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New
York for that reason.
Mr. RANKIN. About what date was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get
there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert
joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going.
I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not
confirmed--he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving
around--I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not
confirmed.
I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an
hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is
when we first arrived in New York.
I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks,
because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son.
And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then
we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her,
and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come
to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife.
So we just stayed there a short time.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat
of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that?
Do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I am glad you said that.
My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there--I
stated before, and I am glad I said that--that we were not welcome. And
immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our
foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was
going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get
located.
My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on
before I got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit
a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my
daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee.
So she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she
showed her displeasure.
And she is a very--not, I would say so much an emotional person--but
this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular
neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York.
The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed
like a trooper. She is--you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin--but not of a
character of a high caliber.
At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or
out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the
baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected.
We were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. So there was,
I think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket
knife, a child's knife, that Lee had. So she hit Lee. So Lee had the
knife--now, I remember this distinctly, because I remember how awful I
thought Marjory was about this. Lee had the knife in his hand. He was
whittling, because John Edward whittled ships and taught Lee to whittle
ships. He puts them in the glass, you know. And he was whittling when
this incident occurred. And that is what it occurred about, because
there was scraps of the wood on the floor.
So when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. So she made
the statement to my son that we had to leave, that Lee tried to use a
knife on her.
Now, I say that is not true, gentlemen. You can be provoked into
something. And because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the
knife in his hand, they struggled.
He did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife.
But it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. It was a little knife.
So I will explain it that way, sir.
So immediately then I started to look for a place.
I did find a place, I think, off the Concourse. I do not remember the
street.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the Bronx?
Mrs. OSWALD. Off the Concourse, in the Bronx. And it was a basement
apartment.
I had shipped some of my furniture. It was in a storehouse at this
time. So I got it out and put it in this basement.
Lee had his own single bed. It was a one--one great big, big room.
But we had the kitchen--regular New York type style--the kitchen and
the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room
apartment. And there was a single bed that Lee slept on, and I slept on
the studio couch.
Then Lee went to school.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here.
Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a
junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47
days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the
truant officer in the Bronx Zoo.
I was informed of this at work, and I had to appear before a board,
which I did.
Lee went back to school.
Then he was picked up again in the Bronx Zoo. And I had to appear
before a board committee again.
Then the third time that Lee was picked up, we were--I never did get a
subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at Children's Court.
But I never--how I got the notice to appear at Children's Court--I am
at a loss, sir.
But I did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. I did not
know. I did not think it was anything serious, because the Texas laws
are not like the New York laws. In New York, if you are out of school
one day you go to Children's Court. In Texas the children stay out of
school for months at a time.
Lee had never done this. So I appeared with my son in court. There was
a judge asked me if I want to be represented by court counsel. And I
believe I said, yes, I believe I was represented by the court counsel
at this particular time. And within a few minutes time--because there
were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children,
and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here,
a half hour, to discuss the case. It was done immediately.
My child was taken from me in the courtroom.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he been out of school quite a bit?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. At this time, he had not been out of school quite
a bit.
So then I was given a slip of paper--no, I am sorry. I was told where
to go, where Lee was, which was another office.
They took Lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably.
Then I went into another office and here was Lee. Lee was wearing his
brother's Marine ring, just an ornament ring. They gave me Lee's ring
and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that Lee was going to
be at this home, which I think the name was the Warwick Home for Boys.
And gave me a slip of paper and told me when I could visit Lee.
And that was all I knew at this particular time.
The child was immediately taken, and I was told to visit the child.
Now, I believe it was--this home was in Brooklyn. I may have the name
wrong. It was an old, old home in Brooklyn.
So I went to visit my son.
And I hope some day to rectify this, because I think conditions of this
kind in our United States of America are deplorable. And I want that to
go down in the record.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son?
Mrs. OSWALD. For truancy, yes, sir.
So I had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir,
with Puerto Ricans and Negroes and everything, and people of my class,
single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had
a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the
desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. I had packages
of gum and some candy for my son. And I sat down there. And the gum
wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off.
And my pocketbook was emptied. Yes, sir, and I asked why. It was
because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and
had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to
be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics
or anything.
So that is why I was searched.
So I was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking
with their children.
And Lee came out. He started to cry. He said, "Mother, I want to get
out of here. There are children in here who have killed people, and
smoke. I want to get out."
So then I realized--I had not realized until I went there what kind of
place we had my child in.
We don't have these kinds of places in Texas or New Orleans, sir.
Then I realized what a serious thing this was. And this is when I
decided I needed an attorney.
But Lee, I think, was approximately in that home--I am not sure--5 or 6
weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that Lee was
a truant, that he was out of school so long.
It is because he was in this home, sir. That accounts for a lot of the
truancy.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him
about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I asked Lee.
Well, this comes in another part.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. So I left my son that day, and I think I visited him a
couple of times after that. I am not quite sure.
But in the meantime, I engaged an attorney. I do not know the name of
the attorney, and I wish I did.
When I told the attorney about Lee--and I have stated this at a press
conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. He was indignant. I
cannot quote his exact words. But what he said was that New York State
picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to
work on this farm for the State of New York.
Now, I may not be saying this exactly. You may have the picture of the
home.
But these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, I understand. That
is all I can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because I did
not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened
I tried to put it out of my mind.
But now I am refreshed a little on that.
So Lee was in this home 5 or 6 weeks, I believe. You probably have the
record.
So then we were asked to appear to court. I went into court with this
attorney. And there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and Lee
was brought in, and Lee sat down by me. And I remember this distinctly,
because Lee had ear trouble quite often. And I saw his ear running, and
I said, "Lee, you are having an earache." And the judge heard me saying
something to Lee.
He said, "What did you tell your boy, Mrs. Oswald?"
I said, "Judge, I asked him if he had an earache."
I didn't know they were going to give me the child then.
So the judge talked to Lee and asked Lee if he was going to be good,
and go back to school. Lee answered, "Yes, sir." And he said to me,
"Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not
get along." I said, "That is correct." And he suggested that Lee
would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was
used to instead of in New York, where we had no family then, because
the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. And this judge
suggested that. And the judge gave me my son, right then and there,
gentlemen.
I left the courtroom with my boy. He was given to me in my custody.
Now, that is all I know of the case. The particular case.
From there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer,
Mr. John Carro. Mr. Carro talked with Lee and asked Lee if he was going
to go back to school.
"Yes, sir."
He reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little
talk. And he said, "Lee, you are to report to me once a week for
probation."
I am going to stress this.
I have been in this Commission 3 days. And you know I am very definite.
So I was very definite with Mr. Carro. I did not mince my words. I
said, "Mr. Carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. This is
not a criminal offense. He was picked up for truancy, he has assured
the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. He has
promised you he would be back to school. Let's give this boy a chance,
and let's see if he will go to school."
"And then, Mr. Carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him
report to you."
Mr. Carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. When you don't
agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just
as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it.
So from that time on Mr. Carro pestered me and Lee. Mr. Carro would
call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that
they were having trouble with Lee. And I went to the school and talked
to the principal and she said, "Mrs. Oswald, what happened while the
probation officer was here--Lee moved the chair back, and it made a
little noise."
And that is what Mr. Carro reported.
In plain words, gentlemen, Mr. Carro was indignant at my attitude,
because he was an official.
Mr. RANKIN. What school was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was the first school, sir.
Then I moved. I am a little confused. Just a minute.
I took Lee out of the first school because the children knew that he
had been in the home, and I thought he didn't stand a chance.
So I moved to help my child again.
And I personally went with Lee to the principal and told the
principal--not in front of Lee--had a talk with her--that Lee had been
in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of
any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we
lived, I would appreciate it. And she did help. There was a young lady
in this building that we lived, in the Bronx--now we are living near
the Bronx Zoo.
Mr. RANKIN. Is this the new school?
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the new school. And we are living near the Bronx
Zoo, which is 100 and something street.
Mr. RANKIN. And this is Public School 44?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--Public School 44. So I talked to the principal
and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall
that was Berkshire Farms?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as I
knew, sir. All I knew was that he was in this home in Brooklyn. He was
never committed to a farm, as far as I know, sir. He was in this home
all this time. And this is where I am assuming, because I knew nothing
about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is
why they would have him in this home to observe him.
And, by the way, I was called one day to go to the home and a young
lady talked with me. And I sensed that she was questioning me for
a reason, because I had been on my own all these years, and I am a
business woman. So I remembered one distinct incident. She said, "Mrs.
Oswald, how strong do you believe in education?"
And I said, "I believe strongly in education, but not to an extent
that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a
mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her
children a college education," because I happen to know that a college
education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. There are college
graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. And so to me--I
could never be home with my children. I had to work and leave my
children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. I would have given the
world if I could have been home and raised my children. And here are
women, because of material things, and because they want to give their
children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly
love, that I myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair.
So to get education to that extent, no, sir, I do not approve of it. I
think it is more important for children to come home and have someone
in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college
education. I am strongly for that, because of my experience.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald a good student?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have his records from all the schools in New Orleans,
sir. But we are not through with New York--that will show he passed
satisfactory grades.
Mr. RANKIN. How about New York? Was he a good student there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was an average student. Yes.
Now, I personally brought Lee to the school and talked to some of the
teachers. And they told me that Lee was a bright boy, but that he was
bored with school--there was just something there. Lee was in a sense
bored with school in this sense--that Lee was an overly bright boy,
studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have
now, I understand, for special children of this sort.
Mr. RANKIN. But his grades were not too good during this period?
Mrs. OSWALD. They were passing grades, I would say. Now, that is what I
know about the New York situation.
Now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment
there. I did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. But now I am
assuming naturally he did have it then. There is a report on it.
I wish to say this. I am just a practical nurse. I became a nurse
because of my experiences, and I wanted to devote my life to humanity,
which I have stated before. But I do know this. I work in hospitals,
rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our
rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed.
Now, I think you will agree there. We are all understaffed. Every one
I have ever been in. So I will say if Lee had psychiatric treatment
in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could
not have had a complete psychiatric examination. We do not know. I do
not know if he had a complete. But I will say that according to other
institutions, that this institution was also understaffed.
I am going to make one remark to Mr. Jack Ruby. He has to have five
psychiatrists. Now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a
13-year-old boy.
So, then we will go to Lee's schooling in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you leave New York, did you ever tell anybody that
you took Lee Oswald to New York so he could have mental tests at the
Jacobi Hospital?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, never. My child was a normal child--and while
in New York. I explained to you he had a dog with puppies. The school
teachers talked well about him. He had a bicycle. There was nothing
abnormal about Lee Oswald.
It has been stated also I was offered psychiatric treatment which is
incorrect. This Mr. Carro I understand is a very big man. He may be
supplying the files with all of this. But, sir, it is untrue.
Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to New Orleans after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Then they assigned a big brother to Lee. This is
important to the story.
So this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the
type person I was and my son was. And he did not see anything wrong
with the child. Evidently not. Because he suggested that it might be a
good idea--I had told him the way Mr. Carro was doing. Mr. Carro was
pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that
I would call the school and the principal would assure me everything
was all right.
So he thought that it would be better if I would take the child away.
And I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know exactly the charge.
So, I said, "Is it all right? They won't arrest us and bring us back?"
He said, "No, there is no extraditing"--that was his words.
So, I wrote Mr. Carro a letter explaining that I was taking--Lee and I
were going to New Orleans, and Lee had cousins his age in New Orleans,
and I thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. And
the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave New York that
it would be better for Lee. And I wrote Mr. Carro the letter, sir. I
did not flee New York. I had the decency to write him a letter. And the
Big Brother is the one that recommended this.
Now, that is what I know of the New York.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the name of the Big Brother?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not know the name of the Big Brother. But
from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. The Big Brother stated
how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you went to New Orleans, did you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at
my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled
in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended
the Ridglea West School and graduated--was promoted to junior high in
1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York. Now, we are in New Orleans.
Lee was immediately enrolled in Beauregard School in New Orleans, La.,
upon arriving in New Orleans. And here is his certificate of promotion
to high school. And they have stated that his attendance was very
good. He just missed 9 days, I think, out of the whole term, which is
considered very good.
Mr. RANKIN. How was he as a student in New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. C grades. He was promoted, or he wouldn't have C grades.
So that is two certificates there.
Then I have another certificate. He went to--no, I would not have the
certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the Warren
Easton High School. And that is the school that Lee wrote the note--am
I correct?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is already in evidence. He wrote and said you were
going to San Diego, and it was not your note at all. He signed your
name.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And then, as you know, Robert was
discharged from the Marines, and Robert did not want to live in New
Orleans. So there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy,
who was the youngest, could be with a brother. I moved back to Fort
Worth, sir, because Robert was in Fort Worth so we could be a family
again. However, I moved in July, and Lee joined the Marines in October.
So we were just there a few months.
Lee attended Arlington High School there. And when we came back to
Fort Worth, Tex., the school did not know what to do with Lee. Lee, I
think, was approximately 2 weeks entering the school. He was too far
advanced from the New Orleans and New York schools, and not advanced
enough--let's see if I can explain this right--according to his age.
He was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. But I do know, and
I have witnesses to this, that Lee could not immediately enter school.
They had to have a conference, a board conference, because of Lee's
curriculum from school. They didn't know which school to place him in.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with you? Did you get along well
together?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee was a very quiet and studious boy. None of my
children gave me any trouble, thank God. We have no police record, sir,
or anything like that. And the children were always more or less home.
And particularly Lee. Lee would go to the movies, and things like that.
He was a normal boy. But when he was home, he was most happy. And I am
of this disposition.
He could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football
game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that
sort. And so he was quite happy in his own way.
Now, here is something very important.
While in New Orleans, in order to go to Arlington Heights school,
which is one of the ritziest schools in New Orleans, all the wealthy
people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--Lee wanted a
two-wheel bicycle, sir, and I bought him one. So when school opened,
Lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. Can you picture this. A
16-1/2-year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other
children had their own cars? Just picture this. My children never did
want anything, and particularly Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with his brothers?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his
brothers. John Edward had been in the service since age 17, so it has
been a number of years, other than leaves. And Robert had just finished
his 3-year hitch. So you see the brothers have had nothing to do with
Lee since age 13 actually--otherwise than visits. Because when Robert
came back, then Lee joined the Marines.
Now, this is the U.S. Marine Corps acceptance. And it says "I am
very pleased to notify you that your son, Lee Harvey Oswald, has
successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and
so forth. My son was a marine. And I understand a very important marine.
He was in electronics. I have read--one of the marines that was with
him said when he defected to Russia they had to change the system. He
must have had a real responsible position, if Lee defected to Russia,
and all the systems had to be changed. I don't know if this is correct.
But this man made the statement, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he
was in the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not know until what came out in the paper. And I
have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and
so forth. A lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. And if you did curse
an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal.
I mean we all get provoked at some particular time. I am not taking
up for the boy. I don't know what happened. But I know I myself would
be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that I may curse him. And I
am sure it is done quite often. And I understand that Lee slashed his
wrist. I find that from the paper.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about that? How that happened?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--otherwise than what I know in the paper. I do not
know, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What about a man that was killed, that was one of his
buddies in the Marines?
Did you ever know anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. This is the first time I have heard about that. I
haven't even read that in the paper. I did not know about that. If I
can help you in any way--his picture in the Marines--there are names of
the men on the back. I do not know what they mean. But the names of the
men are on the back of picture, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. When was it that he slashed his wrist--in the Marine
Corps?
Mrs. OSWALD. I understand when he was in Moscow--is that correct? I do
not know otherwise from what I read in the paper. These things, how
could I know.
Representative FORD. May I see that picture?
Mr. RANKIN. In the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And that is why, too, it has been stated that he
was possibly an agent, to show, when the Russians would not give him
citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to
return back to the United States, and forced the Russians to keep him
there. That has been stated.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the
Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. I read that in the paper.
Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I read in the paper that it could have been
an accident.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about how good a shot he was? Did he
ever tell you that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine
trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We
have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given
not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it.
Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on
leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one
that knows this.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and
Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was
so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think
it was in regard to marksmanship.
Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's
shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was
left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag.
This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I
think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't
told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to
many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base
in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some
others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there
like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the
Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling.
Mr. RANKIN. He never told you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type
schooling. And I even remarked about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against
President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had
a television----
Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me.
Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both.
Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was
telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I
like, too."
My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My
son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said
anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he
decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that."
That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things
that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was
the only thing. So that satisfied me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this
up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about.
While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank
account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was
on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even
with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of
saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working
for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all
of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by
very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted
to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his
money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would
be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was
approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald
bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought
a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I
don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it
was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not
an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion
if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may
be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit
hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it
further.
And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very
first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home
with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the
planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for
the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board.
I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in
the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and
had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave
it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do
not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they
came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy.
Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me
to remember everything.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to
have.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit.
Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important
to you.
When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New
Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in
Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I
worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could
sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working
with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of
the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now,
Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was
3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for
the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's
house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and
squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and
everything. I do not know.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the
gun from Lee, gave him $10.
Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed
Officer Tippit.
Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you
know, is very important.
Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators.
I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating
for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a
lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a
very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee
is not guilty of Officer Tippit.
Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't
know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We
have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this
information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into
that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease.
It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane
has all of this. We have been investigating night and day.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to
Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first
thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman
with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not
read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion
about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I
immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing
I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called
this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the
picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see."
Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw
Lee, Marina and the child?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't
say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee
was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have
to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle
is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this
particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think
is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is
being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am
speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be
escorted out of the building by a policeman.
Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is.
Mr. RANKIN. That is----
Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first
thing I saw.
Now, they think this is Lee.
No, sir, I do not.
Everybody thinks this is Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the
side of the doorway, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is
Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show
any face? It shows the arms over the head?
Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air.
Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it.
And this woman and child could possibly be Marina.
Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or
not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back
possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation
in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters.
And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could
have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could
have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this,
gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully
mark on Exhibit 203?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And
I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am
willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I
am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed
and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and
state their names.
I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people
are.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have
circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl?
Mrs. OSWALD. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee
Oswald being there.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this.
They see the man next to him.
Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He
has the same clothes on as Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was
Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one
in between, would that be right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now
marked with the identification.
(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission
Exhibit No. 203.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer
Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not.
But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating
this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to
this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about
what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am
going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of
the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this
Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we
have come up with some very----
The CHAIRMAN. Some very what?
Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us
about.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator.
Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is
investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder
of my son.
And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people
giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert
riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have
gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be
done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of
expert opinions.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American
way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours
time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right
to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy.
And people have come to our rescue.
When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the
statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to
come before the Commission.
So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to
work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour
next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation.
We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand,
who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert
rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over.
I am not saying it correctly.
But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it.
And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a
living. He is an expert.
And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr.
Doyle has seen my letters and read a few.
We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of
people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the
assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied
with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to
continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the
Commission, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are
making?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked
me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear
Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going
to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the
panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our
public support by bringing these matters before the public, because
we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced,
also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more
to it. And they are not satisfied.
We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in
a home with a family.
As far as that, I know nothing else about this.
The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you
think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I
have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But
here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen,
if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this
Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three
briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it.
And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you
about myself."
I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be
a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his
way of life."
We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life.
A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his
right to be a Communist. That is his way of life.
I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane
wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote
made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir.
If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I
am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane
doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of
life and try to prove my son is innocent.
The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a
picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have
notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that.
Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for
identification.)
Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped
in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That
is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is
in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being
the picture that was shown to you.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture
that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the
picture.
This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a
big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But
this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was
just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut.
Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four,
cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top
corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face
and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir.
Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room,
on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the
presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina
and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or
anything, because we did not sit down and watch television.
Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about?
Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the
25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after
Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked
this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture
of the man that the FBI agent showed me."
And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot
your son."
Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was
said.
Now, that is very unusual.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked
up, was a picture in the newspaper?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I
can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture
before.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about
a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all
the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was
Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me.
Now, this is what I want to know.
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture
in the paper?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents
there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was
full.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the
bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and
so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy.
As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This
picture I saw, the same picture.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that
he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby.
Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the
newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is
the picture of the man that shot your son."
But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question
all about this.
And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or
anything.
The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture
of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance.
I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling
you gentlemen.
Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures.
It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders.
And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his
arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture
and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand
poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any
more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but
not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know
any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your
knowledge.
Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer.
Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked
several people to investigate this for me.
Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal
Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you
have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young
lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen.
Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is
the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest
gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland
of Fort Worth, Tex.
Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked
who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your
broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with
the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life."
I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to
know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I
will continue not being liked, sir.
So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the
young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was
working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth,
Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the
Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this
saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night.
Mr. RANKIN. Was she married?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do
to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone.
But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store
was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings,
diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and
so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I
realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of
things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father
was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known
defector. So I quit that job.
Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought
I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her
Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the
girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New
York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John
McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate.
But I have not heard anything about it.
Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I
am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they
might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure.
Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people
that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely.
Stanley or Katya Skotnicki?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver
Spur?
Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever.
Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in
the Silver Spur in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee
did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go
into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places
like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these
places.
Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You
recognize that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he
spent time there?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing.
Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr.
Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything,
because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back
to Patrolman Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee
Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from
the Marine Corps.
Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L.
H."
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the
one he got the trophy with.
Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see
there in the book when you first found it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to
substitute a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced.
(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was
received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239
and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy----
Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute.
Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all
these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have
never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his
gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet
from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything
about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been
given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of
money--tremendous for donations.
The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit.
The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows,
sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from,
because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She
has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she
has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous
lot of money.
And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that
correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of
money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to
Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your
investigation?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information.
He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And
we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to
continue to arrive at the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February
14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that
were wrong in it--do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of
President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was
stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if
you remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House.
And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was
to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his
Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that
I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response
to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any
requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief
Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in
your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice
and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C.
White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President."
Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House?
Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to
you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right
here, sir. You don't know about the telegram.
Here is a copy of the telegram.
"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief
Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of
justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be
represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow
will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald."
And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious
response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a
telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White
House when you received it to anybody?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I
commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well,
if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street
wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I
agreed with him.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have
got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United
States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should
also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President
of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a
correct quote?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was
indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies.
I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received
it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I
should not write the President.
I made a special appeal to the President.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like
this?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about
President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say
that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the
President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that.
Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were
talking to?
Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it.
Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I
think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information?
Mr. RANKIN. No.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of
the pictures in that magazine.
Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you
can.
Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can.
The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay
for the picture--the same man?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story?
Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part
of the story. That is not the story.
This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much
nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these
press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they
explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in
your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and
so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because
the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to
go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband
was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell
her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was
the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I
said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or
that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy
hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like
she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where
she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas
to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know.
"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed.
But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful
thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the
girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent.
The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story?
Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent?
The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather.
Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my
personal?
Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you
a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you
don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the
question----
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I
got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know.
The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some
circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the
pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough.
I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my
personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or
income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and
protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that.
Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested
in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you
do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you.
So again, it would be completely up to you.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my
personal----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot
General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these
notes here, and didn't go through that.
The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper.
Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became
indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came
to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is
so peculiar about this whole thing.
I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth
Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But
no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian,
which I have.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in
Russian. It stated in the paper.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story,
now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend
that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that
helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And
I will help in every way possible.
If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in
the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the
Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I
knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now.
From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that
he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in
something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember
this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth,
Tex.
So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is
going to shoot General Walker.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we
call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I
am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I
get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the
business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he
would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in
her mind that her husband had killed the President.
And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin
was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my
daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage.
How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now
maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before.
Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed.
Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement
like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could
not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or
anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my
daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing
their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these
remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin.
Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing
to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if
you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and
probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is
a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer,
maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know.
But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar
with.
Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell
the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has
lied.
Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you
found anything about that was untrue that Marina said?
Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina
say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There
is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't
think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the
Commission, because they are rumors.
But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where
there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I
will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas
Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that
is my understanding there.
Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have
read in the papers.
Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not
appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was
an agent of anybody?
Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent
because I felt like he would not tell me.
Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him.
Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that
was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I
found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we
had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the
bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict
security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook,
and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that
I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed
there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in
the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to
the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I
was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I
didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over.
And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm
and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And
that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon
going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or
not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to
the Inn of the Six Flags.
The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of
you that way?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't
say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know
his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children,
they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And
we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security
number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to
get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the
papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the
room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to
the doctor.
I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said
"You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do
something like that, and not tell me about it."
So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the
door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her
feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong
with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well,
Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just
because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I
am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made
arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two
grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I
going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't
need my part of them."
This is a normal reaction.
Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave,
accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon
in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches.
He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very
last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort
Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me
about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has
been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you
not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the
children have an education."
I said "No, Reverend Saunders, I do not feel that way about it. Those
are material things. How do we know if these children will live to
derive any benefit from this education. I think that we should stick
together as a family. Her Mama, like she wanted. The girl said she has
no Mama. Everything was arranged for the Mama. She is talking about
money and material things. I expressed my opinion at the Six Flags,
that we start with $863--no contributions were coming in. And then if
we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. And
I remarked--I am working for a very wealthy woman.
Who knows, maybe she will give us $5,000. Let us stick together as a
family. Reverend Saunders says "Mrs. Oswald, your philosophy of life
is beautiful, and it is a Biblical way. But you know you have to be
practical."
So the very next day, sir--and this is in "Christianity Today," to
prove my point--Mr. Jim Cox, who writes for "Christianity Today" and
is a Star Telegram reporter called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, Reverend
Saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he
thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life."
I sat down, and Mr. Jimmy Cox stayed home from Church--I gave Mr. Jimmy
Cox a story that is in Christianity Today, that only goes to ministers,
and it is because of Reverend Saunders. So I do have people to testify
about this particular thing. And I did act in a normal way. That is a
normal reaction, to not want to give up my family.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will give you Exhibits 206 through 227, both
inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of
your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the State
Department that you have referred to in your testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Do you want the numbers as I go along?
Mr. RANKIN. No. You just look at them.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Representative FORD. These are copies, Mr. Rankin, of her letters to
the State Department and the responses?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is correct, is it not, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. And these copies were made under your supervision were they
not.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I voluntarily gave you every copy I
have. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct.
Some of this seems to be scratched out here.
Mr. DOYLE. On Exhibit No. 221, there seems to be some X markings
around. Will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the
original.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is correct. That is correct. That is correct. I
don't remember writing to Mrs. James. I remember calling her on the
telephone. This is my handwriting. I guess I did.
Yes, that is my handwriting. That is correct.
That is correct. That is correct. And this is correct, but should have
a card with it.
Mr. DOYLE. You are referring to 227?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And it should have with it a card, a postcard, from
Lee.
Mr. DOYLE. Set 227 aside with 221.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a copy of 221?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you please check to see that is a correct copy.
Mr. Chairman, I think that we might gain time now if we would check
these exhibits out with Mrs. Oswald, and be able to offer them at
whatever time we reconvene. That is all we propose to do now.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that should have gone with that.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, were you able to find your copy of Exhibit
221, and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your
copy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, we have not found that yet.
"Yours 11th" is scratched out.
Mr. RANKIN. So that 221 is correct, but apparently there are some
errors----
Mrs. OSWALD. There are more errors, too. Because it doesn't say
"Services Department of State."
Mr. DOYLE. 221 does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit.
Mr. RANKIN. But it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't have this--"collect." I would not say it was an
exact copy.
Mr. DOYLE. It appears to have substantially the information on it. It
is not a photostat of it.
Mr. RANKIN. I might advise you, Mrs. Oswald, this is from the State
Department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to
you.
Mr. DOYLE. It is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the
information that is set forth in the telegram itself.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have examined all of the exhibits, 206 through
227, both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your
counsel said about exhibit 221, and the card that was with 227, to be
correct.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 206 through 227, both
inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit Nos. 206 through 227, heretofore marked for
identification, were received in evidence.)
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that goes with this letter, as an
explanation.
(The card referred to was marked Exhibit No. 240 for identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 240 is the card you have just referred to that goes
with Exhibit 227, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 240, and ask that a copy be
substituted.
The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.
(The card referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit
No. 240.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you examine exhibits 228 through
236, both inclusive? And tell us whether or not those appear to be
photostatic copies of correspondence about the Albert Schweitzer
College and application?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is right. This is correct. That
is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right.
That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right.
Those are all right, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You have just finished comparing Exhibits 228 through 236
both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your
files concerning the Albert Schweitzer matter?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence, Exhibits 228 through 236 both
inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as
Commission Exhibit Nos. 228 through 236, inclusive.)
The CHAIRMAN. Have you introduced all the records you have now?
Mr. RANKIN. Just a few more, Mr. Chairman.
(The document referred to was marked 241 for identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you Exhibit 241 and ask you if that is
one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. And it is one that you received?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is one that I received in a letter from Russia, from
Lee. And you have the letter, telling me to go to the International
Rescue Committee, and to show the papers to the Red Cross in Vernon.
This is the letter inclosed in that letter.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 241, and ask leave to
substitute a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The letter referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit
No. 241.)
(Documents marked 242 and 243 for identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 242 and 243 are the telegram and the letter you
received back from your transmission to the White House that you have
testified about this morning, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. And you say you would like to have the originals back?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 242 and 243 and ask leave to
substitute copies.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted on that condition.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 242 and 243 were admitted in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Are all the records identified now and admitted, Mr.
Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some
correspondence that involves her son's communications with the Embassy,
which correspondence was examined in the presence of Mr. Mark Lane when
we were taking photostatic copies. And during that examination, Mrs.
Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not
able to identify it on another part. Is that right, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask
her briefly to point those out.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let's get that done before we adjourn, and
then we will adjourn for lunch.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark these exhibits, which
are the ones that I understand Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the
handwriting on.
(Documents were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Exhibits 244 through 250,
both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies
of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of
the originals?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DOYLE. If you do not on any one of them, announce the number.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is one I would believe that I have stated--if he
wrote it, he wrote it very careful. It is not scribbled like he usually
does.
Mr. DOYLE. That is 246.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the
second page of Exhibit 246?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is just a little different. That could be forged. Just
a little difference. We write left handed, and we have a trend.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that one that you said before that you thought you could
recognize?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, sir. I have no way of knowing. How would I
know?
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting now?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I have stated before, when I am looking at it, it
doesn't appear to be immediately as Lee's handwriting. But it could
be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect
lettering. It is not scribbled like we usually scribble. Now, this was
one also that I would say----
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 247.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is scribbled.
Mr. RANKIN. That is more scribbled, you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is not quite as his ordinary writing. It is a little
more thoughtfully written.
Mr. RANKIN. You think it is his, though?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would say this is his.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 248.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it
is printed. I do not know too much about Lee's printing.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the handwriting?
Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I will state again this looks like Lee's handwriting, but
very thoughtfully written.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 249. Is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And this is Lee's signature.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 250 that you just referred to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I would say it is all Lee's handwriting,
but very thoughtfully written.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibits 244 through 250,
both inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250, inclusive.)
(A group of documents was then marked 251 through 258 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 251 through 257,
both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you
recognize the handwriting.
Mrs. OSWALD. That doesn't look too much like Lee's handwriting. It
could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. But I cannot
identify this as Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the signature?
Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks a little like Lee's signature.
Mr. DOYLE. You refer to 251, when you are discussing this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 251.
Now, this one I would say was not Lee's handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. That is 252?
Mrs. OSWALD. 252.
I have never known Lee to sign Lee Harvey Oswald. He always signed Lee
H. There again, that could be Lee's handwriting with a fine pen. But
very thoughtfully written. But I will say it is not Lee's. I don't
think it is. I cannot be positive. But I do not think it is Lee's
handwriting.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 252 that you have been referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 252.
Here is another of the same caliber. It is too perfect. The writing is
too perfect.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the signature?
Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.
Mr. DOYLE. That is 253.
Mrs. OSWALD. 253. Yes, sir. This is a little different signature, I
would say, than his normal signature.
Mr. RANKIN. 254?
Mrs. OSWALD. 254, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that Exhibit 254 is your son's handwriting or not?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have to say with reservations again. It would have
to be rewritten very thoroughly. It is not scribbled enough.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that those letters, 251 through 254, are too
carefully done for your son Lee?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And if he did do them, he would have to have
four or five copies to do it so perfect.
This is a little more scribbled. This signature looks more like Lee's
than the other did.
Mr. RANKIN. That is 255?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 255.
This looks like Lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his
signature. 256.
Now his Russian handwriting I know only from return addresses. However,
I do have two brown papers with Russian writing on, from gifts that
were sent to me. But I don't know if Lee addressed them or not.
And this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. Isn't this
handwriting backwards for a left hand? It seems when I looked at "my,"
it should be going this way--because I write like Lee, left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards,
you were referring to Exhibit 257, were you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This "m" should be going this way--which it is
really. But it is kind of hard to testify to. I would say this is Lee's
handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 257.
We offer in evidence Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 251 through 257, inclusive.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask
you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at 2 o'clock. But
are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us
about your life?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, but I would like to have lunch.
The CHAIRMAN. I said that we were going to have lunch. But when we
return--you have things up to that point of your story?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
You have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch?
Mr. RANKIN. I should like to offer for the limited purpose, Mr.
Chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to Mrs. Oswald and
she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that
limited purpose I should like to offer Exhibit 237.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted.
(The picture referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit
No. 237.)
Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, during the noon hour may I have the
custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with
Mrs. Oswald, the 28 pages which was tendered to us by Mr. Rankin this
morning--and I will return it.
Mr. RANKIN. That is for them to have.
The CHAIRMAN. That is to become your own.
Mr. DOYLE. To become the property of Mrs. Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. The property of Mrs. Oswald, yes. That is what we gave it
to you for. She requested that.
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the hearing?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to
telling us about your life. We would appreciate that if you would do
that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of
your life, that is perfectly all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. I want to tell the story but there is something else that
upsets me.
The CHAIRMAN. It is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. You may
take your time now and go right ahead.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of
my life, and Mr. Doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of
my life that will have a great connection with this, I believe.
I married Mr. Edwin Ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $10,000
a year man with an expense account. Mr. Ekdahl had a woman before he
married me. Of course, I didn't know about it, sir. I made him wait a
year before I married him, but the way I found this out, I received a
telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times Lee and I
traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed
to and for me not to meet him.
So, I called his office, I was familiar with, knew his secretary, and I
was going to tell her that Mr. Ekdahl would be delayed 3 or 4 days. But
immediately she said, "Mrs. Ekdahl, Mr. Ekdahl is not in, he has gone
out to lunch."
So, I said, the general conversation went "When will he be back" and so
on, and so that evening I took the car and I went to the Texas Electric
Co., works for the Texaco, the main office in New York, but he was
working in Fort Worth at the time, went to the building and saw him
leave the building and I followed him and to an apartment house, saw
him go into this apartment house.
Then I went back home, and my oldest son, John Edward Pic, who is in
the service, had a friend at the house who was about 2 years older. I
told them about what happened. So it was night by this time. The kids
went with me.
I called Mr. John McClain, who is an attorney, and we live next door
to Mr. McClain, and told him that I had seen Mr. Ekdahl go into a home
when he was supposed to be out of town and what should I do.
He said, "Mrs. Oswald, just ring the phone. Do you know the woman?"
And I said, "Yes."
"Just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that
you saw him."
After I thought about it I thought that is not a good idea because he
could leave and say he was just there on business and I wanted to catch
him there.
So the kids and I planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we
went up the stairs, I believe it was the second or the third floor,
and the young man knocked on the door and said, "Telegram for Mrs.
Clary"--was her name.
She said, "Please push it under the door" and I told him no; he said,
"No, you have to sign for it."
So with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that I, my
son, and with the other young man walked into the room and Mrs. Clary
had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie
off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "Marguerite, Marguerite, you have
everything wrong, you have everything wrong."
He says, "Listen to me."
I said, "I don't want to hear one thing. I have seen everything I want
to see, this is it."
My two boys, in military school, the two older boys, I am paying for
the two older boys because I have sold a piece of property. I wanted to
take care as long as I had money of my own children and when I married
Mr. Ekdahl if he would support me and Lee I would be able to take care
of John Edward, and Robert in military school, we couldn't have them
with us because Mr. Ekdahl traveled.
This man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary,
in other words, I was another woman to him. I received $100 a month and
that was it. That was all the money I had from Mr. Ekdahl, and when
we traveled, for instance, we were in Santa Fe, N. Mex., and he was
with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until Mr. Ekdahl got
through, the baby and I, in order to eat, whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock
in the evening because here I was, registered under Mrs. Ekdahl and I
had a checking account, but under the name of Oswald, which was the
money I was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for
me to write a check under the name of Oswald.
I am trying to point out the kind of man he was.
I had a nice living in this sense. We lived in the finest hotels and
we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense
account but he gave me nothing but this $100. That was a standard thing
and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars
that I spent, which I refused to do.
So, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. Any man who
marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in
his insurance and so on and so forth.
I wanted to divorce Mr. Ekdahl naturally but my two boys as I have
stated before were in the military school, and I wanted to wait until
the end of the season, the school season.
So, Lee and I went to Covington, La., and I picked the boys up at
military school because this was summer time--rather I wasn't back to
him.
I left him and went back to him. But this particular time I picked the
boys up at military school and we spent the summer in Covington, La.,
and by the way, I forgot to say that Lee had a beautiful voice and sang
beautifully at age 6 in Covington, La., he sang a solo in the church,
Silent Night, and that can be verified. This is a very small town and
the only Lutheran Church there.
So, Mr. Ekdahl came to Covington, La., and I went back again to Mr.
Ekdahl. But this time I went back to him I hadn't found out about the
woman. I got excited. Then I found out about the woman, he rented a
place on 8th Avenue, a home.
And after I was there about a day I was in the yard hanging out some
things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came
along and I said, "How are you? I am Mrs. Ekdahl."
She looked astonished, and after I had made friends with her she
informed me Mr. Ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while I was
in Covington and she thought she was his wife but now I am the wife
come.
Then I found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and
caught her there. This is the end of the season by this time.
In the meantime Mr. Ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. I thought
I was sitting pretty. He didn't have anything on me. I had him for
adultery with witnesses and everything and I didn't have an idea that
he could sue me for a divorce, but Mr. Ekdahl did sue me for a divorce,
and Mr. Ekdahl got the divorce. It was a jury case, and Mr. John
McClain, was my attorney, the man I told you that I called to find out
what to do.
Now, Mr. Fred Korth represented Mr. Ekdahl and when I walked into the
courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that I had never seen
before.
A Mr. George Levine, who is a very big businessman and who Mr. Ekdahl
was representing in Fort Worth for the electrical part of his plant. I
knew him this way.
One time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and
Lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. Now, understand we are
having dinner in a public place. From the dinner we go to the circus,
we are in a public place and I want you to know that it is the only
time I had seen Mr. George Levine, when Mr. George Levine rushed from
work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how I nagged
Mr. Ekdahl and how I threw bottles at him and so on and so forth.
There were other witnesses that I had never seen, sir, who swore how I
nagged Mr. Ekdahl, and Mr. Ekdahl got his divorce from me.
Now, 2 days after the assassination, after Lee's death, while I am at
Six Flags it comes over the radio that Mr. Korth knew the family, this
happened in 1948, sir, then Mr. Korth knew the family, and that he had
represented Mr. Ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked
to the reporters where they got the information that I hit him with a
bottle and so on and so forth.
Now, that is my story there. I am not even guilty of that divorce, as
you see. This can be proved by my son John Edward Pic because he was a
witness, sir.
I do not think I am going--I am not going to speculate but give my
thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had
represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years
ago, and that I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and so on and so forth.
That was publicly announced about 2 days after my son was shot, sir.
Now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name Oswald, but
the name then was Ekdahl that I would say would stick in his mind more.
I will try to get to the very beginning of my life, Chief Justice.
The CHAIRMAN. Any time. Just take your time.
Mrs. OSWALD. My mother died when I was quite young and my father raised
us with housekeepers. My aunt lived in the neighborhood and I had a
lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. My father was French, his name was
Claverie, and my mother was German, the name is Stucke. All of my
father's folks spoke French and my father spoke French to his sisters.
I was a child of one parent, and yet I have had a normal life, a very
hard normal life that I had been able to combat all by myself, sir,
without much help from anyone.
I am saying that in reference to Lee being alone; there have been so
many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image
and that is why he did the shooting. There are many, many children with
one parent who are perfectly normal children and I happen to be one
myself.
I had a very happy childhood. I sang. I sang from the kindergarten at
grammar school, and all through grammar school I was the lead singer.
I was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. I also play
piano by ear. I don't know a note. I used to play the marching school
song for the school children.
At my grammar school graduation I had the honor of wearing a pink dress
instead of a white dress and sang the song "Little Pink Roses." So I
had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. I played the
piano. We had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and
it was everything Marguerite--and I also played a ukulele, so I have a
very full happy childhood.
At the age of 17, I am ahead of my story--I have had 1 year high school
education. I know that on my applications I had that I had completed
high school but that is almost necessary to get a job.
But I had 1 year of high school education is all that I had, sir.
I then went to work at age 17, not quite 17, for one of the biggest
corporation lawyers in New Orleans, La. The name then was DuFour,
Rosen, Wolff, and Kammer. Mr. DuFour died while I was there and Mr.
Kammer, I believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys
for that firm plus 4 or 5 other attorneys that handled divorce cases
and similar cases and I was receptionist in the outer office.
So, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to
me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular
case I had to know who to refer the party to this particular man.
So, naturally, I got a very large education, let's say, by doing
this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest
attorneys, corporation attorneys in New Orleans, sir, and they were
attorneys representing the New Orleans Public Service and big things
of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. When the
mayor came in he had an appointment but I still had to ring the phone
to see if the men were ready to see him. So they called me the boss.
I was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. I am a very poor young
lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady.
My early childhood. We lived on the Phillips Street in New Orleans
which was a very poor neighborhood. My father was one of the very first
streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years
until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the
same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed
neighborhood of Negroes and white, and my childhood I played with
Negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that I grew up
with this Negro family.
I married Mr. Edward John Pic, Jr., while working at the law firm. I
was married to Mr. Pic two and a half years when I became with child,
and he did not want any children. His family and my family tried to
talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but
nobody could do anything with him.
So, at 3 months I left Mr. Pic. Mr. Pic did not divorce me, and you
have the records there of me divorcing Mr. Pic, contrary to all other
stories, sir.
This child, John Edward Pic then I bore alone, without a husband. I
was 3 months pregnant. I had 6 more months to go, and I had this child
without a husband.
So, I have had two children without a husband present, Lee and the
first child.
Mr. Oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at
my sister's house, and the day that I left Mr. Pic he helped move my
furniture, the things that I was going to take.
I didn't see Mr. Ekdahl for some time and----
The CHAIRMAN. Ekdahl or Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Oswald, sir, I am sorry.
John Edward and I were coming from the park one day, and Mr. Ekdahl
picked--Mr. Oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife,
however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and
I started dating Mr. Ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his
wife.
Mr. RANKIN. You said Ekdahl again.
Mrs. OSWALD. Oswald, I am sorry, and then he got the divorce
proceeding. He was separated for a long time but never had been
divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and I
also then got the divorce from Mr. Pic. I was not divorced there from
Mr. Pic, either. We were legally separated but I was not divorced from
him.
So, Mr. Oswald and I married and of that marriage Robert was born 9
months later, and as you know consequently Lee, 2 months after his
father had died.
Now, Mr. Oswald was a very good man. There was the only happy part of
my life. When he died hardly anybody knew that John Edward Pic was not
his son. He wanted to adopt John Edward, but because his father was
supporting him which I think was only $18 a month, I explained to Lee
that I thought we should save this money for the boys' education and
let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do
all we could do but that was no more than right. So that is why he did
not adopt John Edward.
Now, that is the story of my three marriages. I have been married
approximately 9 years in the three times that I have been married,
sir, and I would say, I am probably guilty of a lot of things but the
initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first
marriage I had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third
marriage was Mr. Ekdahl.
I think then you know the rest of the story, how I lived with my
children and tried to support my children.
I have often held two jobs trying to support my children. I have a
whole file that the Commission has copies of jobs that I have worked,
and I have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. I
have wonderful recommendations. I think I have been fired about five
times in my life, and I have had much, much employment, and the reason
for that is finances, in other words, I have always had a very low
salary, and I am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say,
and I always produce for my people and I was in demand actually.
They would come to me and offer me 20, 25 dollars more, believe me,
gentlemen. I would quit the job where I was and quit the new job
because 25 dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children
some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment,
and also I used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time
when the children were little in order to be home with them.
Now, I skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed
in the Lutheran Home. I am Lutheran and I was a church member, a church
worker, I should say. I helped, I sewed, natural gifted, I never did
take a lesson, I never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this.
I used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the
material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. I just had the knack
of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my
niece, I taught her to sew and my sister said, "You are so slow, Aunt
Marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my
niece would say, "Is it true, my mother said you would sew on material
and go out on a date," and I said, "I wish I had a nickel for every
time I did."
So those are gifted things I can't explain.
Lee had certain gifted ways about him also.
In the early part of my life that I had skipped when the war broke
out and my finances were gone, I talked with the church. It was on
Alva Street in New Orleans, not too far where my home was and they
investigated the money I had, and I had a little money left at this
time and they let me place the two older boys in the Lutheran Home
which is a home only for the Lutheran Church.
This is not an institution. They have their own private school on the
ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. However,
they do take orphans. It was really not designed to be an orphan
home. It was for children of one parent and you pay according to your
circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after I went to
work, I paid according to my circumstances for my two boys.
I took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them
back in time for Sunday so they can go to church with the children in
the home. They got a wonderful education because the school on the
school grounds had very few children in them.
There would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so
they had wonderful school. Lee was too young. They would not take Lee
into the home until he was 3 years old.
So, I have hired maids and I have quit many a job for this. You have a
background on my job, this accounts for it. Many a position and I have
always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge
of a department, and I have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't
show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money.
War had broken out and the Negroes in New Orleans were going into
factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job I had to leave
in order to stay home and mind Lee until I could get help.
Then my sister helped with Lee. There is one particular instance, I let
a couple have my home, plus $15 a month in order to care for Lee while
I worked, and this couple after about 2 month's time had neglected Lee
and so I had to put them out of the house and there again I had to quit
a job, and take care of Lee until I could make arrangements and my
sister could help me with it.
So when Lee was 3 years old I was having it very difficult with Lee,
because of the different people to take care of Lee, and the different
jobs that I had to give up.
However, I was never in want of work. It was during the war and I was
always able to get work, but I realized if I continued to quit jobs
because I couldn't hold the jobs that some day I wouldn't have enough
jobs in New Orleans for me to hold one.
So, then at age 3 Lee was placed in the home. I waited patiently for
age 3 because I wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. It
was hard on Lee also because Lee was at a different place and his
brothers were at a different place. So at age 3 I placed Lee in a
Lutheran home. Of course, you have to be under strict investigation
financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church
placement, sir.
Then, I became manager of Princess hosiery shop on Canal Street. I
opened that shop and I was left by myself and in 6 days' time I hired
four girls. There was the first shop this man has had. He now has, I
think, 54 stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting
him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the
time. And this is where I met Mr. Ekdahl and there is why I didn't want
to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and I
was manager of the hosiery shop.
So, now, I was sitting pretty in our American slang and I did not want
to marry. But he persisted. He decided he wanted to marry me and I
decided to marry him. I went to the Lutheran home and talked to the,
well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and I was
going to marry Mr. Ekdahl, and I asked if I should have, if I could
have Lee, that I didn't want the children, John Edward, and Robert
to miss their schooling and I told them that I would wait until the
children got out of school to marry Mr. Ekdahl but Mr. Ekdahl traveled,
and, yet, he had a stroke and Mr. Ekdahl had offered, if I would come
to Dallas, he was being transferred to Dallas, that he would pay my
room, my living quarters and everything if I would cook and take care
of him and I told the home, the Lutheran home about this arrangement,
so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or I wouldn't
have explained to the Lutheran home and they let me have Lee under
those circumstances because they knew that I was a good woman and doing
the best I could.
So, I got Lee, and when we went to Dallas, I then realized I did not
want to marry Mr. Ekdahl, but I had already given up my position as
manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken Lee out of school so with
the money, I told you I had some money, and I had sold a piece of
property, I bought another piece of property for a very small down
payment on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex., and Mr. Ekdahl traveled.
Now, Mr. Ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. Of
course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every
weekend because he traveled, and then I decided I would marry Mr.
Ekdahl. I mean I decided not to, I mean, he was a persistent one.
Then I married Mr. Ekdahl and the home was sold and I traveled with Mr.
Ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money I
sold the home with.
I believe I have covered everything. I am not quite sure.
Are there any questions, Mr. Rankin, that I haven't gotten?
Mr. RANKIN. I think that is very helpful.
I would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then
decided you didn't want to give us. If you would get those out, I would
like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding
about just what they are about.
Could you do that?
Mrs. OSWALD. By the way, one of the reporters when I came downstairs
said "What is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, Mrs.
Oswald?" Where do those leaks come from? That is the example. They
wanted to know about the pictures.
Mr. Chief Justice, this is Lee at 6 months.
The CHAIRMAN. He was a good looking baby.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee there at 2 years. Would--if you would like a
copy of the Marina pictures, sir, I would be more than happy to do that.
I think they are in an envelope. This is important, Mr. Rankin. This
has something to do with Time Magazine is what I think he did. This is
where he got that from. These were copied for this session. These are
from my other boys to mother, and John Edward and which I wanted to
show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another
thing, which is true to human nature.
I am a widow woman with no money and I happened not to have the type
daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support
me. My children make very low salaries and so I am not alone, we
have thousands and thousands of women like me. It is hard to say the
children don't want you. But there are many, many mothers whose sons
have married because it is different with a girl.
Now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually
nothing and I am not going to be helped or supported.
I am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that
was the attitude when I was sick.
Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any
time but I wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they
married. That was the type family we were, sir.
And this was the picture, Mr. Rankin, of the three children which is a
happy life and he wanted to be in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to call your attention to Exhibit
258 which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I gave him this when he entered the home.
Mr. RANKIN. This Exhibit 258 refers to the letter you received from
me as general counsel for the Commission, and then a letter to the
President, and your appeal to the President, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. And this is a copy you released for the press conference in
Dallas. That is Exhibit 258. I offer Exhibit 258.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
Mr. RANKIN. If you will permit me, I will ask the court reporter to
identify these pictures and I don't intend to offer them but then I
will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then
return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all
right with you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is just fine, thank you.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 259 through 269,
both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with Exhibit 259 and
referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the Commission what the
picture is about.
Mrs. OSWALD. 259 is of the three children, John Edward, Robert, and
Lee and the three are smiling. In fact this picture was in a magazine
because of the three good poses. It is hard to get three pictures alike.
Mr. RANKIN. About how old are the children in that picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was approximately going on 6 years old. There
is 5 years difference in Robert so Robert would be 11, that is correct
and John Edward would be 13. That is when they went to military school.
This is a picture of Lee at age 6 months.
Mr. RANKIN. You are talking about Exhibit 260?
Mrs. OSWALD. 260, yes, sir.
This is a picture of Lee at the Bronx Zoo, Exhibit 261 at age 13.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York that you told us about.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
262 is a picture of Lee in Atsugi, Japan in 1958 showing his strength.
Mr. RANKIN. That shows him in Marine uniform also, does it?
Mrs. OSWALD. In his Marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother.
And this is a picture, Exhibit 263 taken in Corregidor 1957 in the
wilderness.
Mr. RANKIN. He is still in the Marines there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. This is a picture taken
August 19, 264 taken in California coming home on leave from Japan.
Mr. RANKIN. 264 he is still in the Marines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is still in the Marines August 19. This is a
picture of Lee taken in Minsk, Russia June 1st, 1961, Minsk, USSR,
Exhibit 267.
There is a picture of Marguerite Oswald, the mother taken in New
Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. What is the number?
Mrs. OSWALD. 265.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. That is your own picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
This is a Mother's Day card sent to me from Santa Ana, California on
May 7, 1959 from Lee.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 266?
Mrs. OSWALD. And this is Exhibit 268 which is a Christmas card I
had sent Lee on his first Christmas away from home--he joined in
October--that Lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was
found in his sea bag he left with me.
This is a book of Christmas carols Exhibit 269 that was also found in
Lee's sea bag.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Exhibits 259 to 269 both inclusive, are those all of
the pictures that you were offering the Commission this morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have many more pictures, I would be happy to show you
but these are the pictures that your Mr. Jenner said he would like to
have for the Commission.
Mr. RANKIN. And that you were referring to when you offered them to the
Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much and we would like to return them to you
at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. We will return them to you, Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well I think that will be all then. Thank you Mrs. Oswald
and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a
long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence.
Now, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DOYLE. Sorry for the interruption, sir. Mrs. Oswald, do you care
to make any comment to the Commission about the tape recording, the
transcript of the tape recording of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald furnished
to you by the Commission this morning? Do you care to make any comment
about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Should I go all the way and make the comment?
Mr. DOYLE. You make any comment you desire on that paper. I ask you
whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that
you sent, that you were given?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am concerned about one thing, Mr. Doyle, if I may just
step over there and ask you a question.
The CHAIRMAN. You may step out in the hall and talk to Mr. Doyle.
Mrs. OSWALD. Chief Justice Warren and Mr. Rankin, I have read this
and it has upset me very, very much, that is what I was upset about.
I have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the Six Flags
I insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and I was
ignored.
I wanted to testify. They put Robert on tape many a time and Marina
continuously and I didn't have an interview. I have stated this
previously, if you remember, and then finally a Mr. Howard put me on
tape for about 5 or 10 minutes only, sir, and I had started with the
defection because I was under the impression that we missed a bet
when we didn't find out how Lee got to Russia and as far as I know,
no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then
Robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get
a minister, if you recall, and cried, and I said to Mr. Howard "Now
all that I have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." I have
stated these facts before, a very short interview.
This interview is supposed to have been by Mr. Howard, sir. The same
Mr. Mike Howard that I have previously identified before on many
occasions, and I swear before this Committee that now my life is
more in danger which I have said before, because I did not give this
testimony. This is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts
because I have been a public figure.
I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and
newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things
have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have
stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent
to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get
protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This
is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a
red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I
identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here
complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart
attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my
life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this,
many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair
Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice
of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to
protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an
article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed
every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had
a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember
that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This
is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to
guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected.
I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if
you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony,
sir.
I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that
I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was
never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that
fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned.
Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations
in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy,
and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that
Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that."
I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say
the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and
we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had
never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I
said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a
statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete
tape recording or question and answer.
I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I
stated previously, which took a few minutes.
I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at
the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give
the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned,
sir at Six Flags.
I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All
of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have
previously stated that.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give
this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to
you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr.
Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then
give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you
just a few questions about it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Fine.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview
that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and
ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your
testimony?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to.
Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr.
Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service
man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by
this.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this?
Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this
interview.
Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?
Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you
did not give this interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr.
Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed
to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark
Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was
another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know
whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the
day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared
to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the
Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane
called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me
and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to
the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad
you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself.
And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough
for me to tell you a little more?
The CHAIRMAN. About this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it.
Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will
see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short
as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live
together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her,
then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was
not this testimony the first 3 days.
I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't
know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her
husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't
her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything
was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned
against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been
changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has
been changing to a different personality.
Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not
saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl,
I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she
was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't
feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook.
Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two
together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other
one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina
Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely.
She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever
been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a
transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you
understand that?
Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so
that it can be heard, if you wish.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a
conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and
been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why.
The CHAIRMAN. May I see this.
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a
dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I
saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I
disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting
my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story
that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the
tape recorder.
Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I
do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down.
Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags.
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly.
I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this
Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few
recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels'
recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being
opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have
stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me,
and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say
something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I
was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and
Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have
him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened.
I have some other evidence.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never
questioned and answered.
The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless
this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these
answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are
exactly what you have told us.
Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the
news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in
magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not
news to anybody.
And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I
was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth
Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape
recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference.
Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer?
For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different
questions and answers.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I
say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these
things public.
These things have been made public.
Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your
son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did
Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded.
I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes
testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are
gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly,
I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't
know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and
maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when
Robert cried and that ended that testimony.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will
take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step
out. That is perfectly all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what
to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man
was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was
free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to
guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state
on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself,
about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret
Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer
is to your question.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
(Short recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we
are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony
or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription
states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just
start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
(Playing of tape recording.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13
and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure,
but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two
discrepancies so far as dates.
Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made
an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14.
(Transcription played.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your
voice on the tape?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice.
I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth,
Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours.
Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear
"Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break
there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the
Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped
because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes
approximately at the Inn of Six Flags.
I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be
verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was
sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it
just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was
a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours
that I talked at this press club.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. At the press club?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours.
Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had
approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then
the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said
I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not
interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this----
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as
smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a
little child crying all during the rest of the testimony.
Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where
you gave your press conference?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be
added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just
saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped
for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10
minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the
Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there.
What they can do with that tape, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at
the Fort Worth Press Club?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions.
So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the
tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out
of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have
never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes
at the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6
minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we
play for just a few minutes.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5
minutes, please.
Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and
I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in
by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about
tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know
because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I
say. They splice.
Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to
splice in each one of those questions.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United
States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth
while, yes, sir, I realize that.
Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more.
(Transcription played.)
Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have
made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It
was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the
remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me."
Is that remark in this any place?
Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is.
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated
and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn
of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a
minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have
left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I
have testified was approximately 10 minutes.
Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to
anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman
by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max
Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over
2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the
same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you
already have here.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this
place as it was at this hotel, was it?
Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the
whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me
at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press.
The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you
questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very
big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on
there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they
edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and
that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would
be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have
never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen.
The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the
same voices are in it there?
(Transcription played.)
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor
that he put me on there.
(Transcription played.)
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his
voice, yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six
Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and
asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State
Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they
didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part.
Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes.
Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13.
(Transcription played.)
The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your
voice.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike
Howard's voice, yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you
think there is any need for any more?
The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it.
Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were
not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the
voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and
the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we
will just have to leave it where it is.
I don't see any other answer to it.
Mrs. OSWALD. All right.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been
marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that
exhibit.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or
not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son,
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not
handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.)
Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the
original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with
the photostatic copies that have been marked.
Mr. DOYLE. I have.
Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are
correct, of the originals, is that agreeable?
Mr. DOYLE. I do.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something
or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions,
Mr. Doyle?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say?
Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing
voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr.
Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the
help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing
her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly.
We know that you responded to this call for public service on a
moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that.
My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission.
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was
for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have
finished my job.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some
questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think
that will be all.
Mr. DOYLE. Very well.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both.
Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client?
Mr. DOYLE. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further?
Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you.
Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you
very much for inviting me here.
The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing
this further because I have told important people about this particular
incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I
am gone not just to ignore what I have said.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we
will not pursue it further.
Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I
have told Mr. Doyle the people.
Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I
called Mr. Lane----
The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people?
Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort
Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how
concerned I was that he was the one.
The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we
have it here in the record now.
We are adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Thursday, February 20, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD
The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at
200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper,
Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W.
Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William
McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski,
special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr.
Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.
On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive
Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate
and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late
President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man
charged with the assassination."
On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which
authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent
or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer
oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing
each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin,
to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive
evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.
The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert
Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was
charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.
Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee
Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the
Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey
Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.
The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating
to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent
death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished
with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the
Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence.
Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive
Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set
forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority
for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.
That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.
You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.
Would you state your name for the Commission?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name
is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building,
Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to
practice before the Supreme Court of that State.
The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert
Oswald?
Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I
might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any
questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles,
Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a
session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will
conduct the hearing.
Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings
at which you are to testify?
Mr. OSWALD. I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a
second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part
of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he
will step out and get the file.
The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that?
Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind.
The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come
back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the
Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr.
Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964,
dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by
Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the
Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.
And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler,
counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed
by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N.
Ford, and Joan Connelly.
The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will
be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise
explain my position to some extent.
And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters
dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611
Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina
N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished
to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like
date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and
Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed
by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.
I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our
procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first
time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished
group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are
ready to proceed.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four
letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the
next number.
The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February
17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L.
Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White.
That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated
February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs.
Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford,
and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed
to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs.
Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same
date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne,
signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford,
two pages.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for
identification.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make
one other statement to the Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those
introduced into evidence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive,
the documents that have been so identified and marked.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through
275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received
from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert
L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr.
Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We
bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the
Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not
be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and
understanding of your final report.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them,
and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.
Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that
stipulation is for the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use
it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.
Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.
The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose.
Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made
for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this
morning.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.
But we have started making copies this morning.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.
Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of
which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be
asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals,
and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short
session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant
and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both
gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular
phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added
it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.
At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be
particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire
as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full
name?
Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where?
Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation?
Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of
sales coordinator.
Mr. JENNER. What city or town?
Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company?
Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co.,
coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the
plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence
relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line
of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various
customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of
the invoices.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick
Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.
Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the
date of your birth?
Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are?
Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend
a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I
will be back to be with you.
Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.
Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My
daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee
Edward Oswald, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. The ages?
Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old
this April.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?
Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer.
Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised
on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is
approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Your father's full name?
Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Edward?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name?
Mr. OSWALD. Claverie.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic.
Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother.
Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am
probably in error. A half brother.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't
hesitate to do that.
Your half brother's father was whom?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever
seen a picture identified as being John's father.
Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir.
And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January
17, 1932.
Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have
you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was
married a third time, was she not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your
recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the
marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the
address. It was Victor Street.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"----
Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that
perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or
four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she
was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your
mother to Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. But she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It
was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.
Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent?
Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this
house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or
independently employed--that is independently from----
Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were
attending--would that be elementary school at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I
believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as
you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days.
We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would
like the background and flavor in which the family lived.
Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending
elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in
New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us,
elementary school.
John, of course, started----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir.
Did I ask you where you were born?
Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state that?
Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Excuse the interruption.
Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I
started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it,
it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was
a brick school building.
I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe----
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in
giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to
date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as
you possibly can.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and
so forth, if you recall.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending
this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year.
However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother
placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not
recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?
In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were
living there all the time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there.
Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with
mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were
at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.
Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and
placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.
We used to refer to it as the BOH.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.
That would be 1942?
Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee,
is that correct, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.
Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was
this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time.
I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez
Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the
house, but I cannot remember the address.
Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living
with your mother.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it
is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her,
that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this
early age.
Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were
at the Catholic school?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject
specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August
of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she
was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can.
Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your
family?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I interrupted you--pardon me.
You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to
us the nature of that school?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere
generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall
just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The
cafeteria was located----
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this
orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir.
The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this
large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate
building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large
playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large
dormitory.
Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that
correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was
pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that
particular time.
My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it
was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian
atmosphere.
Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning
and so forth like that.
But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that.
It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I
might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict
as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe
it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the
religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have
been just a Protestant home.
Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school
or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an
orphan.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school,
there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose
mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during
the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those
circumstances.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I
may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't
think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I
don't know where I read that, but I recollect that.
Is that the case, do you remember?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother
saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in
there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to
time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable
to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at
night.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this
school--for what period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the
questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that
she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan
Home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on
Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months
only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother
at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or
she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time
mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop
located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact
address of it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the
best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on
weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe
that, please.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should
say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week
at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about
this--seeing Lee too often at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in
awhile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly.
But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to
Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with
Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?
Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit.
Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last
year that we were there.
Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be
approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some
time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the
circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted
to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a
minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they
did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery
there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say
very young--say under 3 years old.
I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a
half years old.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan
home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of
the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in
the home?
If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have
been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New
Orleans town district and visit your mother.
Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she
did come to visit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee
was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit
mother, and we always took Lee with us.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year
period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home?
Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we
stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to.
Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days?
Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas.
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my
mind that he did not get along with anybody.
Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular
time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course
of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for
going into that.
Mr. OSWALD. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship
with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct,
with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his
age, is what you would describe as normal?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee
became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions
whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time
that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there
anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you
would like to report?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to
leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that
they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to
be with mother again, all of us together.
As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall
the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house,
a large two-story white--I feel sure it was a frame white house. The
garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front
of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the
garage.
Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of
order.
Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932.
Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she
already arranged for employment in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she
perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I
would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to
Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas.
And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native
of Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he
was at that time--I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I
remember it--employed by the Texas Electric Co.
Mr. JENNER. At what office?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas
Power and Light, perhaps--something like that.
Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your
mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had you become--you boys become acquainted with Mr.
Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the
time of your moving to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you
moved to Dallas.
Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother
John first, because Lee was not yet of school age.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy
Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four
blocks from the house.
Mr. DULLES. What was that name?
Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right
across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing
ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that.
Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant
one?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John
encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home,
what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to
those limitations--normal and pleasant?
Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little
difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in
school myself, to make myself clearly understood.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there?
When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you
lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the
school hours?
Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live
there. We lived at home.
Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge--I feel certain she was
employed.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on
weekends?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in
Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if
anyone? What was done for his comfort?
Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any
housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is
coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps----
Mr. JENNER. A day nursery?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother
was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is
correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him
home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to
the day nursery or bringing him back.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the
Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John?
Mr. OSWALD. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that
school year.
Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your
mother's home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you
boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home
occasionally?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we
did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions.
Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you
were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that?
Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed
at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what
school?
Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt
Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER. You and John?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage
of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I
stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after
we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married
shortly after the end of the school year.
Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be--June of '44?
Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45.
Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr.
Ekdahl--what was his full name?
Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A."
Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in
Dallas at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn
the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to
the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at
Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the
expenses at the Academy.
Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at
that particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military
academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she
was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not
working.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come
to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did
finance your attendance at the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I
did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he
passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at
that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the
insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in
this military school in Mississippi.
Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that
your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home
were still intact?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the
home was paid for or anything.
Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt.
Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you
know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident
that the Commission is not interested in any speculation.
Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating.
Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life?
Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small.
Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. May I ask a question?
Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to
the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the
circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street,
following the marriage.
Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that
a school where you lived?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You lived there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Day and night?
Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we
stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year.
Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the
military school?
Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles.
Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss.
Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends.
Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl,
to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the
home on Victor Street?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?
Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military
academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45?
Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46.
Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained
at the military school.
Mr. OSWALD. Three school years.
Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947.
So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is
that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct.
Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1
year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the
third year.
Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the last year
that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated
to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there
that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after
practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack
away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene.
Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in
divorce, as I recall it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47.
I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the
academy.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at
the moment.
Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period,
plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with
mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't
recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at
Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military
school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever
they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of
Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to
state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during
the period of time you were at the military school?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year----
Mr. JENNER. Chronologically.
Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on
the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to
Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months.
I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior
marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr.
Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a
bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona.
Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether
this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live
thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to
Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would
be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth,
on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular
time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house--I
recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the
academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage
with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the
house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first
occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk
was, but he found out.
Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.
As I indicated, at that time----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year
that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier.
They were in Massachusetts at that time.
This would be the second year.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the
period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr.
Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the
termination of the stay in Boston?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military
school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel
that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends
of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't
recall where.
I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during
Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because
they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or
less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.
Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the
Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived
in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.
Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I
believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you
were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked
you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?
Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But
at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the
academy. We did come to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?
Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on
Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to
Boston, Mass.
Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that
correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the
divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy
of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the
press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at
that time.
Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't
indicate that they will never be given to the press.
Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would
be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the
Commission saw fit.
Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one
during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook,
Tex.
How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in
Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a
half at that particular house.
Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another
home in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year
we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there
in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.
Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.
Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had
rented that house, or leased it.
Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this
smaller home.
Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least
until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was
not employed? She was home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at
that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed
at any time I am aware of.
Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of
a mother to her son, Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer
vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe
personally on this subject, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for
Lee during that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. No household help?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover
that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten
at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view?
He was 7 or 8 years old now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved
to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee,
was 6 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Six years old.
Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary
school, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school?
Mr. JENNER. No--children generally.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to
elementary school.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that
connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that
Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling
with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school
age--commencement age was 7 years old.
Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee
doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?
Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military
academy--where was Lee?
Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean
the mandatory attendance age?
Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to.
Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were
normally sent to kindergarten in those days.
Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this
period, let's call it the military school period because we have
identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years
old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.
He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl
in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was
not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not.
Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John
were attending military school?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him
during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these
travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time
they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they
traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently,
John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or
areas that they had traveled during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which
would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your
mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was
Benbrook School.
Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything.
I believe it is closed down now.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from
letters from your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that
period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between
yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother
relationships?
Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got
along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his
group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.
Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself
on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to
8-year-old period.
Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we
were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him.
We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were
a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a
spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap.
A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be
you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that
is quite a gap.
Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home
during the summer vacations?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of
time--both John and I--with Lee.
I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying
at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying
within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most
of the time.
I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother,
and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie
theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook
into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships
between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that
a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall?
Personality-wise, for example.
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance
out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a
little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure,
the second Christmas we were there from military school.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us
with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was
overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.
Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them
now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no
difficulties with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.
Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have
when they are naughty?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty
between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or
did that only come later?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.
Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up
perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't
remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were
living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period
there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we
attended there--this would be the summer of 1947.
Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a
minute. It is now 11 o'clock.
Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law
was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend
school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the
record.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr.
Jenner, with your questions.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which
although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these
proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the
witness?
Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are
you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which
they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the
persons who purported to have signed?
Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by
Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law
firm, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.
And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr.
McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr.
McKenzie's office.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would
like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this
letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the
presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course,
to my partner, Henry Baer.
Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and
give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the
situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether
it was signed in your presence and where.
Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this
letter was signed.
Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported
to have signed it?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with
the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the
signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.
I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's
secretary.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?
Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they
are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford
on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the
following day.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became
acquainted with Mrs. Ford?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.
I would like to correct that.
It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became
acquainted with Mrs. Ford.
At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and
myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney
for Mrs. Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place?
Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr.
Thorne, and Mrs. Ford?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present.
Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the
following day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence?
Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of
my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford.
Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks
ago today?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.
Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of
this.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here.
Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago
Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on
that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct
it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago.
Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us
the date so we will have it in the record now?
Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs.
Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my
home in Denton, Tex.
On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my
residence at Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing
your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina
Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number?
Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274.
Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of
the exhibit, does it bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures?
Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am
familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a
series?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.
Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did
as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You
are not familiar with her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. The next signature?
Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second
page.
Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. 275.
Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages?
Mr. OSWALD. Two pages.
Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page?
Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is
Mr. William A. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his
signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of
that exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and
in order as they appear----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them?
Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature.
Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.
Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue
it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar
as your familiarity with her signature is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. That is all right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered
to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to
identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of
which I have just finished having identified.
Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler?
Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits?
Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits
and indicate their content first.
I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits.
They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and
279.
If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated
December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and
signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages.
Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description.
Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would
you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a
signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them?
Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for
doing so--on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps
he should start at that page.
Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion.
Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page,
is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one
first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose
signature it is.
Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. The next under that?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed,
appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the
Six Flags at Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the
Commission.
And there is a third signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney.
Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few
moments ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not.
Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are
they not, that are being identified?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner,
state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this
photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original.
Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me.
I retract that statement.
Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a
signed copy, and it was an original copy.
Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original,
since it is addressed to him.
Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these
signatures, do they?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that
they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he
was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the
duplicate copies.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at
the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after
the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were
contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed
here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was
signed, and was signed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a
photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions?
Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions.
Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have
gone through them all, and then admit them all?
Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because
they are of a series, if I have your permission.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports
to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between
Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9,
1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald,
John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and
consisting of two pages.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I
notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day
of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature.
Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on
that date?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of
December was a Monday, it was signed on that date.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar.
Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here.
Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday.
Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date?
Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday.
Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth.
Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed
on December 6th?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed?
Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually
executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit
No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first
whether those signatures were affixed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a
Xerox copy--was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time
as the copy which you have produced for us executed?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir?
Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon
copies, signed, at one and the same time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state
your familiarity with those signatures and identify them?
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that?
Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N.
Oswald, which I am familiar with.
The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar
with his signature.
And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H.
Martin. I am also familiar with his signature.
Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore
identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in
the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed
to it?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276?
Would you take a look at it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about
this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper
right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark
mark, following the word "royalties."
Representative FORD. What page is that?
Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or
out of the contract was the word "gifts."
Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and
preceding the execution of the document?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when
executed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency
agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the
date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John
M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex.,
referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of
Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent.
The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a
letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of
Fort Worth, Tex.
This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.
I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names,
handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin,
co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice
President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth,
Tex.
However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have
the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the
signatures.
I have seen those.
Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?
Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the
signatures.
Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't
pick them up?
Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures
were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not
reproduce the signatures.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?
Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as
principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the
agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit,
attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.
Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth
under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his
signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the
bank, or else he would not have executed it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me
that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself
and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.
Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from
or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of
the funds?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails,
and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various
people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's
welfare.
Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?
Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being----
Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. She related this to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had
conversations with them as to the source of these funds?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.
Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs.
Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was
aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund
at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a
conversation on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. With whom?
Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and
setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit
slip or some other validation of the actual amount.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These
documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess.
We don't have the full information.
Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie--you have been quite helpful. You might be
further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the
deposit.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that
the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for
you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a
copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future,
because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina
Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of
February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up
until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those
gentlemen.
Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is
a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and
Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December
5, 1963, in which it has three--I presume these are omissions from the
exhibit--commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there
is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another
omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an
omission.
Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was
omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the
word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about
that.
Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain,
transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums
when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the
preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald,
witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.
I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of
her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's
signature or Mr. Thorne's signature.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are
you familiar with any of the signatures it bears?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with
which you are familiar?
Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina
N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature.
The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his
signature.
Mr. JENNER. It is his signature?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit
279 is the signature of John M. Thorne.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed?
It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this
document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on
that date.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present
when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document
until Thursday, February 13th.
Mr. JENNER. 19----
Mr. OSWALD. 1964.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen
the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an
original copy.
Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom?
Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an
original, carbon copy or otherwise?
Mr. McKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy.
Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this
is a photo?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit
No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it?
Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of
the original?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald
Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas,
Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated
December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow,
hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of
Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in
which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to
this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A,
Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might
add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this
trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto
those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution
of the trust funds.
In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its
uncontrolled discretion deem advisable."
Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust?
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John
Thorne and James Martin.
Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a
previous exhibit?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on
my part. I do not know.
I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission,
that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can
testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time
have these, up until February 14--have these----
Mr. JENNER. 1964?
Mr. McKENZIE. 1964--have these exhibits, numbered consecutively
from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time
of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the
contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for
signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines.
Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy.
Mr. JENNER. An executed copy?
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy,
yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document
exhibited to you?
Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit
280?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever
purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the
whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within
the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go
afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing
these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve
judgment on these.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that
fact. I felt that that would be true.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you
be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the
statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way.
Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is
the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits
276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified.
Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276
through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the
Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with
respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these
documents.
Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and
to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and
to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me.
We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and
your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the
summer of 1948, I believe.
Am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl
and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and
the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948.
We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe,
following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a
small home.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook,
Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had
entered elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. JENNER. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the
military academy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and
your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing
Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex.,
sold?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best
information?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that
home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on
7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the
house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went
out there. I feel sure she did sell it.
Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a
home at 7408 Ewing?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical
characteristics of that home?
Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached
garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot.
Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall
it--have either attached garage or separate garages.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook
that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not
have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house
in Benbrook.
Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an
automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana?
Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the
time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother
sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New
Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home.
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young
teenagers are?
Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee--was he
likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even
though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I
owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the
automobile at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive.
Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later
years, I offered to teach him to drive.
Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate
to the Commission this course of events in his life--a young man who
never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how
to drive--at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I
was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had
purchased. And Lee was home on leave.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can.
Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please?
Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our
house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As
I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he
brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive.
And I said, "Well, we can start right now."
It was an automatic transmission.
"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry
about. And I would be right here with you."
Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to
learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it.
Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see
him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in
the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an
automobile?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile,
to drive it.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does
not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile.
Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette
in your left hand. Are you left handed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.
Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?
Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.
At one time I could handle it with both hands--especially a football
better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that.
I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in
throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.
Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left
handed, as far as you recollect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw
a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left
handed.
Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when
he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.
Mr. JENNER. Right handed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him
write or attempt to write with his left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any
occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.
Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to
ask it anyhow.
There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed,
but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.
Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his
left hand predominantly as against his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.
Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being
associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly
right-handed person?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.
Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do
anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand
exclusively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be
repeating myself here--at no time did I ever know him to do anything
left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his
hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do
anything left handed.
Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate
knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you
have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or
instinctively a left-handed person?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.
Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to
see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using
his right hand or left hand?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in
any manner when an occasion would require that he use either
hand--instinctively went to his right hand.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand?
Some are not coordinated athletically.
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated
to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as
two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.
Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage
in athletics, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did
you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles,
pistols, cap guns, firearms generally?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.
Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of
an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played
with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did
the same thing.
However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms.
Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we
can orient ourselves.
To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine
you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and
your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had
indicated developments in that area as you became older.
I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course
your brother John and yourself had attended military school.
Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all
three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.
To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the
two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10
years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive.
Mr. JENNER. Hunting?
Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I
started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this
on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And
up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm
in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And
after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even
a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go
hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would
borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook,
and do my squirrel hunting.
I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me.
I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had
reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard.
Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at
that time.
Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms
or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went
hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no
firearms in the house.
He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we
didn't even own a BB gun.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever had BB guns around your home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the
neighborhood?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in
firearms?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That every boy has?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys
attended?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast
Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now
attending high school, I assume.
Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?
Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What high school did he attend?
Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before
he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School
in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to
Paschal High School in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Had you attended either of those high schools?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the
firearms.
But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to
Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military
school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the
summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19----
Mr. JENNER. '48?
Mr. OSWALD. '48--we moved to the address on Ewing Street.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in
Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling.
Mr. JENNER. First?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights
High School.
Mr. JENNER. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in----
Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School.
Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different
school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old.
You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year,
the ninth grade.
If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which
way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I
think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary
School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was
completed at that time.
Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get
confused.
You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So we now have--we are now into '49-'50, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you
enrolled where?
Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long?
Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I
started----
Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That
summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort
Worth.
I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty
keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed
out of school that next year and worked for A&P.
Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John?
Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard.
Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you
recall what they were, per week?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week,
or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a
checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week.
Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the
sustaining of the family?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for
expenses, a little spending money.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of
any kind to your mother or sent her any money?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that
contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during
this period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any
particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not
allow her to work.
Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having
difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn
some money?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed
somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little
spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume
you continued working there the summer of '51?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School.
Representative FORD. May I ask a question?
During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were
you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself?
Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than
she was at that time, I do not know.
Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during
this period?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot
recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period
she was selling insurance.
Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of
Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he
returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself,
until I or my mother returned home from work.
Representative FORD. He was 9 or 10?
Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old.
Representative FORD. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been
induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are
speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or
obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that
there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and,
therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair
statement?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A
little more comes to mind there.
I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I
think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess
or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she
went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth--something along
that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And
I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types
of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more
accurate to what I really had in mind, there.
Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your
mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again
returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is,
working to sustain the family?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left
to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to
school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or
your mother returned to the home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who
undertook to care for him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was
in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother.
Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the
A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that
period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that
correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What were your hours?
Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts
for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on
the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to
restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were
long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night.
And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did
the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere
from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was
home.
Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4
o'clock, do you know?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that
time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be
about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time--we were
getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40
minutes or an hour earlier.
Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school
year '51-'52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53?
Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do
you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.
Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending
Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.
In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling
Junior High School then.
Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to
the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he
started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary
School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting
for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working
and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast
Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was
attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you
enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as
to your doing so, and quitting high school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Not at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of
your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously----
Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine
Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie,
Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was
perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it
came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at
least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.
Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is
it your recollection that you did?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that.
Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You
had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting
you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any
discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event
that first John and then you joined the service?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made
my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best
thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also
perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this
would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard,
that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the
house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of
her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the
limited amount of funds that she had coming in.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your
service pay to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was?
Mr. OSWALD. 1952?
Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard.
Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single.
Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has.
Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the
Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into
the U.S. Air Force.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be
accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent
that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the
other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which
was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John
married? Do you recall the year?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51.
Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. New York City.
Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess.
I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer
now to return to this.
You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.
Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military
career?
Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San
Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left
Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air
Wing.
I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in
Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your
strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the
aviation division.
From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside
of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I
attended metalsmith school.
From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for
approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the
job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea.
Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From when to when?
Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of
1954.
Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines----
Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955.
Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with
the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can
give that first, with your brother Lee--his writing you, you writing
him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would
say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the
service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.
In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville,
Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.
Mr. JENNER. 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was----
Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee--that is the period of time
they were in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Living there.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth,
because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down
to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington,
Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go
to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by
car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee,
mother, John, and his family.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?
Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place--I
do not recall the address.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding
Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?
Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of
course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think
anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been
attending school regularly or not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you
spend time with your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she
not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or
accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any
photographs, snapshots, of Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes,
sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my
questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that
your mother or brother owned or had?
Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.
Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the
pictures in Life?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.
Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee
during this 10-day leave?
Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can
recall taking any pictures of him.
Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your
mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of
photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of
your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was
taken at the New York Zoo.
Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother
Lee, as far as you know?
Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is
just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I
still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly
feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after
I had the film developed.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the
February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of
which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well
if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really
consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what?
Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282.
Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and
282, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the
Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear
on those two pages and not the text.
Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir.
Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit
282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it
might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of
your brother on this 10-day leave.
Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the
snapshot you took?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at
the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day
leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953.
Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was
during the summer months.
Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to
have been in school at this particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a
snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize
either or both of those children?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I
recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission
Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to
that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the
age of your brother at the time that picture was taken?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where?
Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was
taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he
would be residing in New York City.
Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a
striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in
that clothing before?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the
time this picture was taken?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old.
Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where?
Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age.
To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a
snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the
central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At what age?
Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old.
Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be--the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or
1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth,
Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know
whether that is one snapshot or two.
Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to
identify all three?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages?
Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10.
Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on?
Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it
to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify
John Edward Pic at the age of 12.
Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right
outside, at the side of the house.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was
taken?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures.
Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother.
Mr. JENNER. In the background is what?
Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street.
Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page.
Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. What is that area?
Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that
reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this
young man right here--I do not recall his name--I believe his name was
Donald. He lived right around the corner from us.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by
an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you.
Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper
right hand corner on Exhibit 282.
Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which
was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that
picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person
to whom the arrow is pointing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother
Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee
or not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make
a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little
fuzzy.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it?
Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do
you recognize that photograph depicted on that page?
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for
identification.)
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore
that same baby suit.
Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too.
Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked
as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71
marked as 285.
(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits
Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a
photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph.
Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I
recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or
T-shirt, with his hand on his chest?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow.
Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was
taken, and where?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize
the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been----
Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not?
Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286,
there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower
right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this
photograph.
Mr. JENNER. That is the man?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At about what age?
Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the
age of 17.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate----
Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in
Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him
in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High
School.
Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. 17.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and
a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have
identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing
to your brother. Thank you.
Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two
pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are?
Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken
when he was in the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any
time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your
brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be
Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and
289, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread
picture?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the
picture.
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of
the picture, approximately in the center of the picture.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil?
Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine,
there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct
your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a
photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that?
Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is
fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the
mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before.
But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to
use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to
the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he
returned from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment.
Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted
with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be
issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of
Alek James Hidell?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with
respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J.
Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was
employed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I
ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any
circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time,
the surname Hidell?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias?
Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one?
Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please.
Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question.
Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In
order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship
Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and
Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit
290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower
right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman
being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I
believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or
one very, very similar to it.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of
him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the
photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe
four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all
four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over
to Mr. Jim H. Martin.
Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in
correspondence with your brother at a later moment.
Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower
left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a
reproduction of a photograph.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that
photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece
of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to
be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in
that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November
22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there
are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper
right-hand corner.
(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you
recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?
Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina
Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November
22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man
holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some
papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the
papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that
photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee
Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November
22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a
reproduction since November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex.,
approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service
and Marina Oswald and myself.
Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then?
Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in
the room when this photograph was shown.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits
281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have
identified that bear those exhibit numbers.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out
that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text?
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence
the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that
appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292.
Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.
(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits
Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of
those pages.
Mr. DULLES. That is so noted.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances
during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind?
You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was
identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and
being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day
period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every
night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up
with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be
just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I
had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John
and his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home
during this 10-day stay?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee--put it
this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether
your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time
during their New York visit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first
arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the
home of your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had
arisen while they were living with your brother John's family?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an
apartment in the Bronx?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was
mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you
during the 10-day period you were on leave?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22,
1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's
progress in schooling in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the
attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what
was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's
state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and
friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was
quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during
that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.
Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special
gripes?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your
10-day leave in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother
Lee during the 10-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it.
Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any
visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and
well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that
10-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was
still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things
that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was
good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that
there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting
along quite well.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then,
was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was
it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there
between them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous
to his mother?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir----
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go
to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places.
She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the
day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there.
And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in
reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so
forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being
discourteous--that is why I qualify that.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and
you eventually wound up in Korea.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period?
While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences
from school which I think took place just the months before you were
there--although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as
I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around
September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53
that you visited them there, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be
accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from
school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not
recall that. That did not come up at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your
presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared
before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she
said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates
or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New
York about that than in Texas.
Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate
the reaction to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she
had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated
that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just
what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said
about it.
Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's
name.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about
all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible
truancy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955.
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did
you go?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. Were you still single?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather
than to New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go
there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth,
Tex. And that is where I wanted to live.
Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there?
Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex.,
ever since?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you
got out of the service?
Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of
1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern,
Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton,
Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans
when you returned from the service in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955
when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I
had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951
Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New
Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother
and mother?
Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week.
Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of
health and state of mind?
Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that
time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol.
At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New
Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard
the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the
interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from
Korea in July of 1955?
Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955
that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I
remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday
afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went
to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and
came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see
your brother at any time during that period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in
1954--January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it
was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and
at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days
there in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did.
Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for
5 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience.
Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions.
Your brother John--is he alive?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Where is he?
Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force.
Mr. DULLES. He is a half brother.
Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. How old is he?
Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now.
Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the
Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems.
Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in
any trouble?
Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life.
Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was
one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the
spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human
being?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.
Representative BOGGS. In every way?
Mr. OSWALD. In every way.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of
being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General
Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one
question, if I may, for the record.
Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off?
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald came back from Russia, when was this?
Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he
came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962?
Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth,
Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's
apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they
moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him.
Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from
then when was the next time you saw him?
Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail.
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail.
Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with
him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone
or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will?
Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass
window, and he was on the locked side.
Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort
Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right
Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that
what you said?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your
home for how long a period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks.
Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I
think you are quite right. I have a question or two.
Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes.
Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to.
Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8
weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly?
Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to
Russia. We were just together again.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him
at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement
it was never brought up.
Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that----
Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it.
Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement
because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed
politics.
Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I
mean----
Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir.
Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view?
Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point
of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born
conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution
and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I
always believed in and I will always believe in it.
Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say.
Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel
like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking
is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since
November 22d.
But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the
same opinion that I was.
Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on
your upbringing.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't
actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military
academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was
a very good school.
Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss.
Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your
home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked
about it some.
Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails
about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia.
I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this.
Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters.
Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this
afternoon.
Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to
Russia.
Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him
while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very
unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States,
which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to
look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats.
He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us
at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or
reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and
returned to a normal life.
Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was
there a change in the man before and after?
Mr. OSWALD. Physically?
Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and
general----
Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote
me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me.
Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but
in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a
Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so
forth.
But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters
certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to
return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen.
Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned
with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your
wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier,
but was it pleasant?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We
immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at
that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to
speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show
her things that she had never seen before in her life.
Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever
since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of
President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other
than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in
light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa
without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were
not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any
feeling----
Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald
was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say
during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been
involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to
believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe
on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete--and
freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the
U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion
then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have
anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she
appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this
time.
Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions
on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported
in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say
that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy.
Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under
the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him
all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life,
would you give us any reason for why he may have done this?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I could not.
Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee
Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody.
Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your
stepbrother since it happened?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay
but we are just trying to establish----
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear,
you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at
the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself
and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you
want to ask him.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much.
Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any
information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any
other investigative agency, because----
Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that
we discover the truth.
Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are
here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given
fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this
tragic event.
Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not----
Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question,
but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event
could have happened, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November
24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older
brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We
had to go through the Air Force base where he was located.
Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then?
Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force.
I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware
that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly,
perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he
thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my
opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was,
his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture
and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral.
Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio
and the like.
Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the
assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death,
the 36 hours?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him?
Mr. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards.
Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the
assassination?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems
or difficulties, or what?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn
of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week
following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November,
when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the
children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house,
this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite
a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She
is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we
have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife,
and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the
extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally
the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned.
Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that
it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President
that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is
to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in
touch.
Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so
that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir----
Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason
for it.
Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in
contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his
mother.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had
you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch
with you, Robert?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch.
Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the
Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she
thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever
have any reason to think that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my
mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government
bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in
Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an
interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when
I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked
him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he
says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for
the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?"
I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.
Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your
mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of
the Federal Government?
Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22?
Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw
your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an
agent of the Federal Government?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Representative FORD. Can you tell us when?
Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we
were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since
we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December
1963.
Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal?
Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative
Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and
in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on
numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say
something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking
to me about this.
Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?
Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost
conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific
basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give
it to the U.S. Secret Service.
Representative FORD. What did she say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked
off.
Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her
counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not.
Mr. DULLES. She had not.
Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your
mother, I gather, while you were growing up.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when
you were younger to get along with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and
your brother, John?
Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John,
and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her
more than I or my older brother John could.
Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5?
Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.
Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative BOGGS. What did he do?
Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of
New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.
Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal
life at the time of his death?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they
were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that
they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the
life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us
the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well
normally?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more,
to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some
very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed,
and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in
another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this
arguing other than it was just loud.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys
John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the
summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.
Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest.
He has been on for 2 hours.
Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?
Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for
his cooperation.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?
Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from
the House if we have any call or a vote.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be
agreeable.
(Short recess.)
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get
a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few
questions.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mr. DULLES. Okay.
Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's
discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse
reaction to it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in
the status of that discharge?
Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under
which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge
at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that?
Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going
on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I
remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few
days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was
all that was said between Lee and I about it.
Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his
discharge?
Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She
had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the
Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the
reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps
even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he
did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to
appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed
without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an
undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.
Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of
these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this
situation?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he
had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way
that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take
care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the
board reached a final decision.
Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell
you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back
from Washington.
Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her
return from Washington?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular
detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she
put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And
that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.
Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?
Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to
Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She
volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw
numbers of people, different people.
Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's
return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have
from Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently.
Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me?
Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters.
Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be
submitted for the record.
Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee
subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to
come back?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we
covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course,
thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the
United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he
changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.
Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to
the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that.
He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in
letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with
his wife and the baby.
Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money
from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and
assistance in repaying the loan?
Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be
June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special
Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and
his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their
destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put
it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of
the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife
didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this
is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The
banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed
at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked
him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank,
I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I
wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee,
used to get to Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100
for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field,
on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he
keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he
would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry
about that, but just to take his time.
Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?
Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first
started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to
Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.
Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become
fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of
the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters
from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't
even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather
sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer
it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign
language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.
Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying
Russian or had become articulate in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime,
did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time
that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even
read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any
type of foreign language.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would
like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the
letter to which you now have reference.
Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter
to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our
copies?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the
telegram is June 14, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the
telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the
Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter
of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.
(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit
Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness
the originals?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?
Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is
now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram
to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone
call through your wife on June 14, 19----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13.
Mr. JENNER. 13?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is
June 14.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on
June 13, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th,
is what?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did
you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York
Welfare Center?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13,
1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at
New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the
extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them
in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and
Marina might expect to be in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually
received that document which is now before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. June 14.
Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the
document so marked and identified.
Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received
in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is
that 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959.
Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original
of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?
Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a
photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment,
please?
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the
Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit
since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by
Representative Ford.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an
envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort
Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper
lefthand corner of the original.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due
course?
Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in
responding to Representative Ford's questions?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope
now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except
that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the
bottom of the second page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can
you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like
he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or
three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in
Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make
out.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness
might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will,
indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at
the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your
attention immediately.
Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his
voice a little bit?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received
from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a
mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter.
"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:
"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do
not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and
apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to
comprehend my reasons.
"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance,
that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I"
then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume
to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of
Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told
that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to.
This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet
Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States
which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps
in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is
a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet
Union and I will never leave.
"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one
word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made
a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand
my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone
from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by
the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the
below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you
want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be
able to pay it back."
Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the
bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room
233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which
I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had
been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking
up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know
exactly.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a
moment here.
Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. That was earlier.
Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival
in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. October 13.
Mr. DULLES. October 13.
Mr. OSWALD. 1959.
Mr. DULLES. And this was----
Mr. JENNER. November 8.
Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks.
Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on
Halloween Day 1959, October 31.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in
which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had
previously sent him.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event,
stimulation?
Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Who notified you?
Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that
same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house.
I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps
if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of
information--that they could relay to us when they received anything
about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them.
After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had
left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the
Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him,
and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise
because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee,
and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State
Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee.
I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and
one to your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of
the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these
telegrams from Western Union.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the
Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.
Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present
recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western
Union?
Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I
requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means
available.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir.
And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me
through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the
message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?
Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram
to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia,
requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one
word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313
Davenport."
Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose
clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he
would know that I did send the telegram.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the
telegrams.
Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an
assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified
as Commission Exhibit No. 294?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he
acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?
Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission
Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.
Mr. DULLES. Accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received
in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce
in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original
having been produced before the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your
brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the
telegram and his reaction to it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November
8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you
attempted to reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday,
November 1, 1959. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the
New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as
to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and
did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment
have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. At that time?
Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone
thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as
you know?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his
willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you
send him any money?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to
come back I would gladly send it.
Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to
him.
Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs.
Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No,
he always threw them away."
Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the
best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to
your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement
referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the
letter.
Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did
it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any
comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November
8?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in
reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of
November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the
time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe
I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what
he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I
had to say to the members of the press at that time.
Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1,
1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother
and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your
brother John ever called him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1,
sir, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact
Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was
in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we
were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John
over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he
actually went over there.
Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to
reach him or she did reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he
hung up.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you
be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to
be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading
through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the
letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that
you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of
November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents
of your letter.
Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren
has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over
this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it
tomorrow.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.
Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with
you gentlemen.
The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.
Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief
Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated
matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could
bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't
believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the
record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the
standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth,
and so on, if you could bring that out.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty
he just left left that out.
Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your
specialty.
Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif.,
during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right
guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill
instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position
all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of
boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank
until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami,
Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in
April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe
that I received in the Marine Corps.
I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal,
and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit
Citations, and such.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative
Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself
and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been
a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you
mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail
of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.
Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who
was present and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a
call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my
home in Denton, Tex.
I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on
the other end, at my mother's home.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. It was your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as
far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she
was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be
able to concretely establish that with the officials.
Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the
occasion in the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely
than that it followed the other?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of
December 9, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you
have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?
Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she
made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions
from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or
speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an
agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to
Washington.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the
occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with
your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of
boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was
right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap
gun other than with his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall
sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops
and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.
Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he
had it in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise,
he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when
Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the
service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort
Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends
of yours went on a hunting trip.
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?
Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.
Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?
Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my
brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about?
Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how?
Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between
the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving
for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I
feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws'
farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my
brother-in-law went hunting.
Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or
about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.
Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?
Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to
discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he
place the butt of the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder.
Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull
the trigger and discharge the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22
caliber gun on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.
Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good
marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on
the fly, I mean?
Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran
across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and
my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a
semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that
I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did
someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?
Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe
this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch
located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it
was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about
eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the
type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to
see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to
kill eight of them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light
form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?
Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been
hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine
Corps.
Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there,
another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type
of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time
was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall
of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle
the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I
don't recall of anything.
The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he
returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my
wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the
farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting
while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I
believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.
Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.
Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion
that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22
rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt
action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my
brother-in-law's rifle----
Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that
rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at
the farm.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during
that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his
departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action
weapon?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions
that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which
you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise
that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of
hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you
did not accompany him?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular
time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally
like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an
opportunity to hunt that he did do so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the
conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from
him.
Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the
letter, apart from the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our
interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he
was able to----
Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the
conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that
he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he
had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.
Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?
Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to
have, the shotgun.
Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his
return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that
would be June-July of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is.
Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and
they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of
speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or
owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time
with a guarantee from you.
What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I
did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort
Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which
was----
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?
Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962.
And at his request----
Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me.
Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of
employment in Fort Worth at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said.
Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so
forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had
tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West
7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody
cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said
gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was
approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did
sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was
charging.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of
what--the use to which he intended to put his credit?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a
baby chair and a baby bed.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his
purchase or acquisition of a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes
Street, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not
a television set that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence
of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in
those premises a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house.
Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence
as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your
mother.
Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any
time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his
own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever
occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a
television set?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this
television set matter?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had
quite an ordeal for the day.
Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable.
Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing.
Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can
reconvene then.
Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in
the morning.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Friday, February 21, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles,
member.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and
William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short
time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today.
And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will
now proceed with the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee
was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at
home. You recall that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the
last time you saw him during that 3-day period?
Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His
physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he
was approximately 5 foot 9-1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape
at that time.
Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it
a little longer period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days,
and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the
day at our house.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health,
bright and alert mentally at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head
of hair was concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you
would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with
him as his brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him
subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the
date, please, as closely as you can.
Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field.
Mr. JENNER. Now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of
time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July
1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in
his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had
seen him, in 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost
a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in
comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in
November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September.
Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly.
Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the
texture of his head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did.
Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's
death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of
hair?
Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in
your family?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on
either side, to the extent that you have met those people.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on
either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness.
Mr. JENNER. And you have none?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even now?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial
appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been
when you had seen him in September of 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return,
June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his
complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been
very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you
might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a
bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of
yellow.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his
physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his
demeanor.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that
time. I would say probably 5 pounds--approximately 5 pounds less than
what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his
appearance in 1959--facially?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other
differences, if there were any, in demeanor?
Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going
to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in
June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with
the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance.
As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time,
June of 1962, I noticed no difference.
He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this
to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and
living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years,
that this was the reason for the accent.
Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially
his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance,
lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the
meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion,
at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your
brother while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair--I did, either on the
first or second night, when he was there at the house--I pointed it out
to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look
at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just
right down to his scalp.
And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected
his hair, the cold weather.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field,
and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and
my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He
seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper
reporters around. He did comment on this.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something, "What, no
photographers or anything?"
I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet."
Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made?
Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into
town?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention
when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters
again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and
so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said
nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the
United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge,
that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my
home.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also
the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the
present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether
your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia
that affected his mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed
an opinion in that respect.
Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to
the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared,
I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock
treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in
addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his
return from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now
expressed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday,
November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963,
I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this
all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his
hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute,
please.
Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical
appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an
opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of
the USSR?
Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate.
Mr. JENNER. I am.
Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?
Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time?
Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any
time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether
or not he had been ill while in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you
about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say?
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please?
Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations.
Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or
returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could
possibly refer to my diary.
I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald
and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh
your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in
reference to----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document.
Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in
various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first
three words and the last three words of the page to which you are
making reference?
Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"----
Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story."
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion----
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second.
For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has
been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and
Mr. Jenner has it in front of him.
Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want
to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover
another subject while you are still here.
Proceed, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was
ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we
had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year
of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident.
I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one
day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon,
that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the
entire day.
At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her
at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was
in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two
occasions, been in the hospital in Russia.
I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of
that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that
the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more
specific than that in relation to the illness.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?
Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't
indicate where he was at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.
Mr. DULLES. She did not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of
everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular
occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have
indicated with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited
knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some
difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of
that nature, that we could discuss it more fully.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness
feature at a later point.
You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your
conversation on the subject of illness with Marina.
Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular
date, and will wish to question the witness about it.
"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that
Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by
the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all
day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the
cemetery."
Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated
by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the
letters "NMR" refer to?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there. There are five dashes
there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. And
the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in reverse.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there
as a substitute for the word "shoot"?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or this
incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim
H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. On what day?
Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there?
Mr. OSWALD. To visit with Marina, and to take her to the cemetery.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Your children?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were
also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret
Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police
officers.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men?
Do you recall any of them at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if
he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one
that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office--the
U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you
have placed them in this note refer?
Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose,
your first conversation of it, your first notice of it.
Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other
matters.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa.
Mr. JENNER. And who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my
wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it,
standing by the sink.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa
and the others?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room.
Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you
describe as a den?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what?
Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine,
built-in oven and range.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were.
Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any
other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And
we finally--he finally brought up this question.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as
best you can, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards
him. He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the
sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to
me----
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still
not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to
shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee
in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best
remembrance--that was everything that was said from him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information?
Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with
her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been
disclosed to you before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather
speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I
was hearing.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this
story?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in
question had taken place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the
attack on General Walker or not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on
January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told
him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was
aware of the attempt on General Walker's life.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation
with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that
an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to
this, with respect to this event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964,
approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that----
Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to
you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot
Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you
have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to
that--that is, after January 13, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this
one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other?
Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question
him further about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of
your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the
FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question?
You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you
have kept since November 22d?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the
first time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning.
Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to
me?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning,
when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written
materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S.
Government this particular incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. You had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when?
Mr. OSWALD. This was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a
calendar, please?
On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my
home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular
incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with
the advice of my counsel.
Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance,
or did they come to you with specific reference to it?
Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of
February 18, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents?
Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that
information?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to
state what I told the agents.
Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it
was Monday, February 17th.
Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday.
And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15
or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday
evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on
February 17th, at which time I suggested that if they would like to
talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so.
Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill?
Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on
January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon,
February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to
the initials and what it meant, at which time I did.
Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15,
1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency
of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other
person, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent
of the U.S. Government.
My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was.
Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary?
Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this
particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your
testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is,
on January 13, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it
not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of
the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or
while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the
incident.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning
from the cemetery?
Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as
clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she
said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were
driving to the cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it
out.
Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and
my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a
reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited
knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started
relating to me this incident.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this
incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do
it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring
it up?
Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what
was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you
went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the
cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said
to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time,
I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this
when we were sitting in the den that afternoon."
Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what
you said to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon.
And then she related----
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words
that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the
conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to
the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr.
Martin had related it to me.
It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot
Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the
bathroom all day.
I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly
was, or was, but later----
Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to your
question was, "He certainly was."
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the
word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the
period that he was locked in the bathroom.
And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt
you?"
She said, "No, he did not spank me."
That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the
incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took
place?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at
the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have
taken place?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence?
Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments
that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar
with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for
myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever
the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the
first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald.
And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with
us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had
lived in in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged
occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with
anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin,
Marina--anybody at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the
bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a
98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was
possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the
inside and not on the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom,
she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the
bathroom.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps
assist you?
The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know
where they were residing when this occurrence happened?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source
where this event took place.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex., at
anytime?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on
Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen
the apartments where they lived?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now.
I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that
Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast
Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but
that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his
attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that
occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the
award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at
least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing
the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information
given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from
any violence on Mr. Nixon.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles' approval,
interrupt you one more time for another statement.
I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr.
Carlson and others to receive this award.
However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to
November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall
the exact date.
But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so.
Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the
21st of November 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior.
Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21st
of November 1963, and not prior to that time.
But we will----
Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are
technically correct. It was the day before.
Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I
wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date.
Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks----
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to
Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior
to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and
make it part of the record.
Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this
particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why
you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S.
Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and
he turned it over to the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me
was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that
they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my
part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I
was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada?
Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that?
Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which
time----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry
in your diary, and after the event occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary
January 13, yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the
matter with her?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry
on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state
who it was, at which time I did.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also
prepared a diary?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel?
Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel.
Mr. JENNER. And what counsel?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been
discussing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this
particular event with Mr. Knight.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr.
Thorne?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie,
had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada,
the existence of the diary?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McKENZIE. To whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of
February 1964, or January 1964--I advised her that I----
Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or
February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last
week of January?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various
happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum,
really, rather than a diary, of past events?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a
statement or memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss
further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman,
could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence?
Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do.
I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced
yesterday, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie,
delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which
you have before you, do you not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you
delivered it to me yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating
to anything involving your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on
them, please?
Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been
clipped?
Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2
weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with
my body, I write for future reference for myself and for the future
members of the family."
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have
clipped?
Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this
story."
Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. DULLES. Please.
What was "this story"?
Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly
thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and
for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to
Lee's life.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is
there another entry in your handwriting on that page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964,
relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record
the balance of that page, are you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone
to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's
house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the
way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week
if she knew"----
Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I had omitted a word.
Mr. JENNER. What was the word?
Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee".
Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word?
Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"----
Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write
the word "Lee"?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to
their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it.
Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or
three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his
left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI
read this in Marina's book."
Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI
read this in Lee's book."
Mr. JENNER. That is correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in
Moscow.)"
Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said
she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story."
Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that
entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment.
Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order.
There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is
what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to
locking in the bathroom for a day.
Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away
from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool
him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the
locking in the bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related
to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day--pardon me. I
misunderstood the question.
Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that
particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the
bathroom?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he
would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her
intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep
him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon.
Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook,
and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you
prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the
first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I
notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first
page or started this memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and
identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what
you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it.
Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the
left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that
you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top
December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and
in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears
the figures 12-7.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first
entries?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963.
Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the
record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of
Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in
front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to
the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were
written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his
recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct
Robert?
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are
some breaks that I would like to identify.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for
identification.)
Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence?
Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment.
Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped
together at my request in your handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the
date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote
on the particular occasion--that is, December 7, 1963?
I take it the balance of that page?
Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and
the first part of the next page.
Mr. JENNER. Down to what?
Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date----
Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered?
Mr. JENNER. They are not.
Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the
Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them--Robert can number
them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and
likewise number the exhibit.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather
than to place any markings on the original.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the
seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit?
The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in
your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in
the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook
you wrote on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the
11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page?
Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina."
Mr. JENNER. And the last line?
Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"----
Mr. JENNER. Just the last line.
Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating".
Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made
then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you
have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages
consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk,
and that follows the asterisk?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping
at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date
after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964.
Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the
diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time.
Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made
contemporaneously with the events recorded?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary
entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the
event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last
page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964,
and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6
days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong.
Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday,
January 19, 1964, is incorrect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to
a calendar, I will correct the dates.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64.
I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday,
January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second
date of January would be correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have
referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to
January 12, 1964?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of further identification of the exhibit,
and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a
photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages
of the exhibit on the photostatic copy.
Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like Robert to do that?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers
on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the
original.
As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the
page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in
sequence with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2.
The next, No. 3.
Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it.
Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next.
Five is next. Six is next. Seven is next. Eight is next. Nine is
next. Ten is next. Eleven is next. Twelve is next. Thirteen is next.
Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty. Now,
page 20 is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19, is it
not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is an insertion to the
page that has not been numbered yet, page 21.
Mr. JENNER. But isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered
20 is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sorry. You are correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But the point you are making is that the entry on page now
numbered 20 relates to page 21?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
We will now mark page 21. Twenty-two.
Mr. DULLES. What are you marking that insert as far as our copy is
concerned?
Mr. JENNER. As page 20.
Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't it be better to make it 20-A?
Mr. JENNER. I thought from the record that I had made clear that page
number 20 was the reverse side of page numbered on its face 19.
Mr. DULLES. All right. Just so you are clear.
Mr. JENNER. Have we covered page 22?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six.
Twenty-seven.
As I proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in
your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in
your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers
on them--the same pages--on the photostat?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do the entries that you have made in the
notebook on pages 1 through 27 now identified represent your
recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the
events?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had an opportunity to review those entries since
they were made?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other
than or in addition to those you read to the Commission this morning?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I now offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit
No. 323 the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the
witness, and which have been numbered 1 through 27.
Mr. DULLES. Exhibit No. 323 will be accepted.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 323 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 5 of
your notebook.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At that point you were recording the course of events on
what day?
Mr. OSWALD. Friday, November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. To orient you and the Commission, the entry to which I
refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. Follow me, please.
"Mother and I talked briefly and after about 30 minutes we were taken
across the hall to where Marina and the two children were. (This was
the first I knew of the new baby.) A Mrs. Paine was also present. We
talked a little and shortly Mr. Paine--who the police had been talking
to, came out of the office and Mrs. Paine introduced us. I did not like
the appearance of Mr. Paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but I
just had a feeling.
"I still do not know why or how"--what is that next word?
Mr. OSWALD. "but".
Mr. JENNER. "But Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this
affair. Shortly thereafter Mother, Marina, and the children and the
Paines left to go to the Paines' house in Irving, and I advised them I
would stay there and see them tomorrow."
When you recorded "I would stay there" you mean remain in Dallas? What
did you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. My full meaning there, sir, was that I would remain at the
Dallas police station, and take a hotel room in Dallas, and spend the
night.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to
an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met
either Mr. or Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement
recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance
of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a
feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are
somehow involved in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police
office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His
handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake.
Mr. JENNER. Live or dead?
Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly
his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that
he wasn't really looking at you when he was.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the
witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would
be stiff.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this
entry.
Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in
which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way
he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he
was not really looking at you.
Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you.
When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine--just
before this?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. On that same day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a
previous page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.
Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in
explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and
Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by
that? That is on page 6.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under
my date, original entry of December 6, 1963.
At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but
Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by
this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November
22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6,
1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had
read approximately at this time--and I am not sure that I had read
this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but
I feel like I did--that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident
at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee
as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the
description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a
rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As
I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from
that description that it was Mr. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you
predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved
in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time
is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few
minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine
are somehow involved in this affair"--I made that statement then based
on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday
night, November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared
on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then
follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes
and hair, as you recall them.
Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I
do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps
I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial
appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part,
because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the
face.
His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look.
Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion--ruddy, pale?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected.
Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he
part his hair? Do you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I
never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not
believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the
middle of December 1963.
Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this
entry?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr.
John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house
in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there.
Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home?
Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again
on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I
have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings
of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were
still there.
Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you
with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr.
Paine when you arrived there?
Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their
home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here
on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt
on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some
type.
Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had
straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald?
You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I
correct on that?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in
reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set
of hair, dark and short.
Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short.
Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut?
Is it cut short?
Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium
length, for myself.
Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's?
Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are right.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?
Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs.
Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact
with Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds--and by tall I mean
approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height.
Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full
face.
Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine
was slender, and also that she was slender in the face.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color.
Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long.
Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long?
Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now,
but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary
to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty
interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret
your own writing on the exhibit.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the
entire diary, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask
you--are you talking about my over-all average?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of
your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an
opinion on what I think it would be.
Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with
him, as you testified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of
you as to how you were getting along?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B.
Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a
like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I
place myself.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished
us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr.
Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We
have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those
letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of
postcards the front and reverse side of postcards.
We were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the
close of the session--by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his
presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the
original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am
marking each of those documents with an exhibit number.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so
we have an idea of the period covered?
I have a general idea, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Two of these items are not in exact sequence, but----
Mr. DULLES. Two have been introduced already, have they not?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct. A letter of November 8, 1959, introduced
in evidence yesterday. I don't recall what the second one was, but at
least----
Mr. DULLES. Were they marked at that time as exhibits?
Mr. JENNER. That was marked as an exhibit. And Mr. Liebeler has it.
The November 8 letter, Mr. Chairman, is marked Commission Exhibit No.
294, and it is in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. There was only one letter, or were there two?
Mr. JENNER. There was just one letter. I think, if you please, you have
reference to a telegram, which is Exhibit No. 293.
Mr. DULLES. That is it--the telegram.
Mr. JENNER. Being a telegram dated 14 June 1962.
Mr. DULLES. And these other exhibits cover what period?
Mr. JENNER. They commence--the first, Commission Exhibit No. 295, is
a letter of eight pages dated November 26, 1959, and concluding with
Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages dated March 16, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Were those all from Russia?
Mr. JENNER. They were all from Russia, save the letter dated March 17,
1963, being Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages. All the others are
from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. Where was that letter from--do you recall?
Mr. JENNER. It is postmarked--the envelope "Lee H. Oswald, P.O. Box
2915, Dallas, Texas."
And the cancellation stamp likewise says Dallas, Texas.
The date is that which I have already recited.
Mr. DULLES. That was after Lee Harvey's return from the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, he returned in June of 1962.
Mr. DULLES. And that letter is dated what?
Mr. JENNER. March 17, 1963.
Would you follow me, Mr. Oswald? In each instance, when we compared
the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Oswald,
that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we
have a photostatic copy--and was received by you intact? That is, the
envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that
you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? That
in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your
brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, entirely, with the exception of Commission
Exhibit 299, which is a letter of three pages dated May 31, 1961, upon
the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of
Marina Oswald, written in the Russian language?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I take that to be Mrs. Marina Oswald's writing at
that time.
Mr. JENNER. And there appears on that page following that paragraph
written in Russian what purports to be an English interpretation of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the
letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you
received them?
Mr. McKENZIE. Except for opening.
Mr. JENNER. Except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary
for you to do in order to remove the content. Is my statement correct?
Mr. OSWALD. With this exception, sir. That a number of the letters were
not opened by me personally. By that, I mean my wife opened them when
she received the mail at the house.
I have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last
few days.
Mr. JENNER. So that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting
a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the
envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Those exhibit numbers--excuse me. There are three
postcards--Commission Exhibit No. 310, dated December 11, 1961, which
is a Christmas card, Commission Exhibit 319, which is a postcard dated
October 10, 1962, and Commission Exhibit 321, a postcard dated April
10, 1962. Each of those was received by you in due course, Mr. Oswald,
as you related to me yesterday.
I want you to confirm this. And is in the handwriting of your brother,
Lee Harvey Oswald.
And except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear
thereon in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as
when you received them?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I wish you would--I want to exhibit to you the
postcard dated April 10, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit No. 321.
Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, these letters have not yet been
formally introduced in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. They have not, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Very well.
I might add, Mr. McKenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether
those letters were opened by the authorities in the Soviet Union before
being forwarded. I think that ought to be on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 321 I now hand you, Mr. Oswald.
There is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my
interpretation 10--and then I cannot quite decipher it.
Would you look at the original, please?
Mr. DULLES. The European system of marking is different from the
American system.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I seek to bring out, sir.
Do you now have the original before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the figures to which I point? The first is
10?
Mr. OSWALD. 10/4/62.
Mr. JENNER. Indicating what date?
Mr. OSWALD. April 10, 1962, in accordance with the European system of
dating.
Mr. JENNER. Of putting the day first, the month second, and the year
last?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting
or opened by unsealing?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals,
that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting.
Mr. DULLES. I was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern
methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed,
and if the letter is cut, that can be done.
If the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do
anything with it. You cannot always do this, but there are certain
techniques.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, did you have reference to when Robert
opened the letters?
Mr. DULLES. Well, what I had reference to is to whether if the letters
were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of
ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor,
and then resealed. I was just getting at that.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is interested, I see, in whether the letters had
been censored in Russia before they arrived in the United States.
Mr. DULLES. That was my point.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of the witness on that subject further?
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the record. When Robert Oswald or
his wife opened the letters, as you can plainly see from the letters
here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener--a knife
or a letter opener, or just torn open.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be
probable that the Commission would be interested in examining the
originals on this subject--that is, to determine through experts as to
whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents
censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and
dispatched to the United States. And I take it that your inquiry was
directed towards that.
Mr. DULLES. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of Mr. McKenzie, in the light of that fact,
as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us
so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I will make them available at any time that the
Commission so desires.
And I would like further to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is my opinion,
based on a reading of these letters--and I feel that Robert Oswald
concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored,
because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many
instances. And I speak of that--the censor in the Soviet Union.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I have not yet read the letters.
Mr. JENNER. The photostats that we have of the letters will reveal
that to which Mr. McKenzie is now referring. We took the face of each
envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. And
in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard.
Mr. DULLES. And in each case I believe we will have in our records,
will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt?
Mr. JENNER. To the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side
of the envelope; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Because if you have a case where a letter takes four or
five days, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may
mean quite a good deal.
Mr. McKENZIE. In some instances, Mr. Chairman, it took five days to
receive a letter from the Soviet Union to Fort Worth, Texas.
Mr. DULLES. That is par for the course, I guess.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
But I might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get
from downtown Dallas to the suburbs in Dallas, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr.----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, if I may, I would like to say something to
my attorney.
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Mr. DULLES. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the letter of September 10, 1961, please?
That is Commission Exhibit 305.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way
of photographs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was.
Mr. JENNER. Is a reference made to those photographs in the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. And do you still have the photographs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And you have them there before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And how many are there, and what do they depict?
Mr. OSWALD. There is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly
pictures in Minsk, Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of
these exhibits?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is.
Mr. JENNER. I will mark this Exhibit as Commission Exhibit 304, the
next as 304-A and the next as 304-B.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 304 and
304-A and 304-B for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. The witness now has before him a photograph marked
Commission Exhibit 304, on the reverse side of which appears some
handwriting.
Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it?
Mr. OSWALD. "Trade Union Hall on the Main Street."
Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears
is a picture of a public building?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I turn your attention to the document marked Commission
Exhibit No. 304-A. On the reverse side of that does there appear some
handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. "A square in Minsk."
Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side is also depicted a public building?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 304-B, does the reverse side of that exhibit
contain any handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it does not.
Mr. JENNER. The face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some
public buildings?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you replace those photographs, please, in the
envelope with the original?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to the letter dated January 30, 1962,
being Commission Exhibit No. 314?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any contents accompanying this letter in
addition to the letter itself?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference
within the letter itself----
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two
photographs.
Mr. JENNER. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original
of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents
yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which
you now refer were contained in the envelope?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Liebeler, would you give us those A and B numbers,
please?
Mr. LIEBELER. 314-A and B.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 314-A and
314-B, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 314-A, that
is a photograph, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say?
Mr. OSWALD. "April 30, 1961. Marina--Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the
persons depicted in that photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who are they?
Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you
removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope,
except for the exhibit number?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the other exhibit, Commission Exhibit No.
314-B?
And does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say?
Mr. OSWALD. "Marina, wedding day, April 30, 1961."
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the face of the exhibit. Do you recognize
the person depicted on it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when
you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was
contained, being the letter dated January 30, 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the series of letters
which I have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the
contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified,
as Commission Exhibits Nos. 295, being a letter of eight pages, dated
November 26, 1959; 296, a letter of one page--we don't have a more
accurate date than the summer of 1959; 297, a letter of one page, dated
December 17, 1959; 298, a letter of two pages, May 5, 1961; 299, a
letter of three pages, dated May 31, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner, just a second.
The letter that you have referred to as being dated December 17, 1959,
does not have a date on it. It's received December 17, 1959?
Mr. JENNER. That is in the witness' handwriting.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes; in the witness' handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. The letter itself is undated.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. The words "received" and the figures December 17, 1959, are
written by you on the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is that in fact the date it was received here in
America by you?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you for following me, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 299 is the letter which contains in
part the paragraph written in Russian which on its face purports to
have been a notation by Marina, which we have already identified.
Exhibit 300 is a letter of two pages, dated June 26, 1961.
Exhibit 301 is a letter of two pages dated July 14, 1961.
Exhibit 302 is a letter of one page dated July 28, 1961.
Exhibit 303 is a letter of two pages dated August 21, 1961.
Exhibit 305 we have already identified. That is September 10, 1961,
the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public
buildings and plaza in Minsk, Russia.
Exhibit 306 is a letter of two pages dated October 22, 1961.
Exhibit 307 is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second, Mr. Jenner. Don't you have one
dated November 1, 1961?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is out of order. I will reach it in due course. I
am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated November 20,
1961?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 308 is a letter of two pages dated November 30,
1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 309 is a letter of two pages dated November 1,
1961. That is the one to which you have reference.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 310 is a Christmas card dated December 11, 1961.
It is contained in an envelope, I believe.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is my statement correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 311 is a letter of two pages dated December 14,
1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 312 is a letter of one page dated December 20, 1961.
Mr. McKENZIE. December 20, 1961?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Three pages?
Mr. JENNER. One page.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 313 is a letter of two pages dated January 5, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. January 5, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 314 is a letter of three pages which we have
identified, dated January 30, 1962, and contains the two photographs,
one of Marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their
wedding day.
Exhibit 315 is a letter of three pages dated February 15, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 316 is a letter of two pages dated March 9, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages, dated April 12, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Again, on the letter of March 9, 1962, the date on that
letter is the date written by Robert Oswald the day he received that
letter. The letter itself is actually undated. But the envelope is
dated by Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope postmarked?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And the postmark is----
Mr. OSWALD. March 9, 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. That is date of receipt?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages dated April 12, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 318 is a letter of two pages dated May 22, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 319 is the front and reverse side of a postcard
dated October 10, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir. April 10, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. That is the postcard the witness----
Mr. McKENZIE. Has previously identified as being in the European
tradition of dating.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 320 is a letter of one page dated November 11,
1962. Or is that '61? Would you check me on that, please?
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't find that. Is it a letter or a postcard?
That is November 11. That should be November 17, 1962. The photocopy
did not pick up all of it. And if you would like for us, we will change
that to November 17. It should be November 17th.
Mr. JENNER. Would you make that change, please, in ink.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is Exhibit No. 320.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 320, a letter of one page, the
original dated November 17th. What year?
Mr. McKENZIE. Just November 17th. But the postmark shows it was dated
November 18, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is a postcard dated April 10, 1962.
Mr. OSWALD. To which you have previously referred.
Mr. JENNER. Have we got a duplication?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are Exhibits 319 and 321 duplicates?
Mr. McKENZIE. I would have to look at the exhibit. I have the original
here in front of me.
Mr. JENNER. They are different exhibits.
Mr. McKENZIE. This is Exhibit 321.
The other one is this one you have here, and it is dated October 10,
1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right. To make sure the record is clear, Mr.
Chairman--Exhibit No. 319, which is a postcard, is cancelled on its
face at Dallas on the 10th day of October 1962, and it reads on the
other side, "Dear Robert, for the new address you can write to Box
2915, Dallas, Texas. Also please stop by the house and collect any mail
which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my
address to Dallas." And then in the center of the card "Lee", with two
X marks. Is that correct?
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is Exhibit 319.
Now, Exhibit 321----
Mr. DULLES. Let me see. I would like to straighten that out.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is the postcard dated April 10, 1962.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I had marked the exhibits
correctly.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I concur in that remark.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 322 is a letter of two pages dated March 17,
1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. Dated March 16, 1963. It is postmarked the 17th, but
dated March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits,
Exhibits 295 through 322, both inclusive, the documents that have been
marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub-exhibit
numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified.
Mr. DULLES. They may be received.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 295 through
322, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, I would like to say something for
the purpose of the record.
Robert Oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. They are at the
Commission's convenience at any time. We do not know whether or not
they have been censored in Russia, but we are confident that they were,
because some of the letters refer to the censor in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. That will appear, Mr. Chairman, from the photostats of the
exhibits as offered in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie, among the original postcards and letters
which you produced for us is a postcard dated January 13----
Mr. McKENZIE. January 10th.
Mr. JENNER. January 10, 1963. And may I have that, please?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; you may.
Mr. JENNER. That will be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 324.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 324 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Does the witness have the original before him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Examining Commission Exhibit No. 324, which purports to be
a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting on the face and
reverse side of that postcard?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that postcard in due course or about the
cancellation date appearing on the face of the card?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that cancellation date is January 13, 1963, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is January 10, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This photostat makes a 10 look like a 13.
This postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, Lee
Harvey Oswald, thanking you for a Christmas gift, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is the postcard in the same condition now as it was
when you received it?
Mr. OSWALD. Exactly, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No.
324 the document which we have so marked.
Mr. DULLES. It may be received.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 324 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. We will return, Mr. Oswald, to the period about which
inquiries were made of you by Representative Ford and Representative
Boggs yesterday. That is, you had testified, as you will recall, of
efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone
in Russia when news reached America of his alleged defection. I am
merely seeking to orient you at the moment.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. In due course, you received a letter communication from
him, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Including the letter of November 8, 1959, about which I
questioned you yesterday.
Now, I wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of
November 26, 1959, a rather long letter.
As a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages.
Would you get that letter before you, please?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
I have the letter before me now, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you will note from the letter that it purports to
be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother Lee is
responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you.
I ask you this question first.
As to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning,
or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your
brother in the sense that you also wrote him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies
of any of the letters you sent him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. So that at the moment we would have to call solely on your
recollection as to what you might have written during this period of
time while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent
them--you just sent an original? There was no copy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, no copies were made.
Mr. JENNER. I suggested that you might, during the evening, read the
letter of November 26th so as to refresh your recollection as to
whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded.
Have you had that opportunity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not had that opportunity to read this
letter.
Mr. JENNER. I would prefer to pass this letter, then, Mr. Chairman,
until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. Would you try
and do so at your first opportunity?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. It won't take but a minute here to do it.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. We will recess for lunch at this time.
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you--may I inquire of you whether
during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which
is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one,
to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your
brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the
earlier of these two letters--this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald
shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in
the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did
not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's
decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there,
since Robert would not be able--and now I quote--"to comprehend my
reasons"--that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know
anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do
this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of
Russian, which I have been studying for months?"
The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under
any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which
is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received
a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he
thought Lee "was making a mistake."
Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you
please state your reaction when you read that letter?
(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959
were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. In order to
achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing
of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed
transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.)
Mr. OSWALD. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something
I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in
general what the newspapers had been publishing.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only reason you make that remark--that you
had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the
newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have
that expectation?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe
that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening.
My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general
expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be
something of this nature when I did hear from him.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your
lifetime and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views
of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I most certainly did not.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation
between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John
present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the
government of the United States had been discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever
discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination
in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind.
Mr. JENNER. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of
November 8 came to you as a complete surprise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I
expected after reading the newspapers.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there.
When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in
the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia--did he say
anything to you about going to Russia at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to you as to his plans?
Mr. OSWALD. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my
Aunt Lillian.
Mr. JENNER. Your Aunt Lillian whom?
Mr. OSWALD. Murret.
Mr. JENNER. The family you identified yesterday--the Murret branch of
your family?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall identifying them.
Mr. JENNER. There was one occasion yesterday.
Mr. OSWALD. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was----
Mr. JENNER. That is an Aunt on which side--your father's or mother's?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them,
and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in
New Orleans, Louisiana.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you any indication at any time during his
stay--this was in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and
discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any
indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere
else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was
going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in
Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was
there.
Mr. JENNER. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him
during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount
of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the
telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our
home.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you
testified about yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And never during any of the contact that you had with him
did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip
which would take him out of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport.
Mr. JENNER. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit
at your home on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the period between his discharge from
the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there
any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were
together?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you at any time during
that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge
from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in
normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of
that year?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that.
Mr. JENNER. Who initiated it?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain like I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do? Ask him--just tell us what you asked
him. And why you were curious, if you were.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him--because I was aware
of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge,
or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or
released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had
written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also----
Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be
released earlier?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that
he be released earlier.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is all he said?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11
or 12, 1959, had you talked to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of
whether it was weeks or several months?
Mr. OSWALD. I can give an estimate of several months.
Mr. JENNER. Several months?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the four month period?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period?
Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11,
you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that,
you had not talked with her.
I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether
she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior
to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an
accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time,
if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and
injured her nose.
I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was
consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first
discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told
you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for
several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or
later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation
must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I
correct about that?
Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You saw her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.
Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?
Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some
possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her,
that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it
that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you
stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown
area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department
Store.
Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from
wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed
at Cox's Department Store?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after
the accident?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the
accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from
our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--I don't
know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. Because
this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store.
Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she
related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news
you had of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well
being was prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to
your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience
of getting there.
Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this
was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir,
it was approximately two miles from my home.
Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or
from work to her place of business?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her?
Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday.
Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection
or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir?
When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you
visited her?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before,
several months.
Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months, back into the
winter time of 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58.
Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it
have been?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct,
sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a
year. It had not been that long.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several
months.
Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far
back as January of 1959, am I not correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far.
Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been
that much of a period of time--sometime in January, 1959, to this
occasion in April of 1959 when you had--you visited her at Cox's
Department Store?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as
to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958?
Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958
that I did see her.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent.
Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr.
Oswald.
I take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is
'58, '59, and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother
was quite limited?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the
broad picture first.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred
prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952.
Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently.
Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps--was that stimulated in
any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with
you?
Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please?
Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was
approximately May 29, 1952----
Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In
approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort
Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left
Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we----
Mr. DULLES. '52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled
I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was
with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to
bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a
different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort
Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi.
Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big
Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex.
At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life
generally.
Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live
on your own?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to
start my own life in the manner that I wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that
you had led up to that moment?
Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite
strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely
in all respects.
Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to
your brother, John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would?
Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir--thank you.
Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard?
Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my
own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother,
particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you
reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same
feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach
that conclusion.
Mr. DULLES. You would?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go
off on the trip?
Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Without advising her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort
Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call
her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at
home.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the
conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from
the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he
had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the
Red Cross.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time
you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the
Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there.
Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your
mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on
her own, or don't you know?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the
request to the Red Cross.
Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that
your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee
why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months
more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the
service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another,
was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps
were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something
along that line. And I thought it was unwise.
Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be
under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe
September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were
having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that,
the conditions which brought that about?
Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number
of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it
quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at
her apartment there in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it
quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it
quite difficult"?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I
was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own
family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still
control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.
Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents.
Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any
time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming
married before you became married?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving
her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and
she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her,
that I would stay with her.
Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in
November--November 20 or 21, 1956.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your
marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition
to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her
objecting to your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in
the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind
right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to
the extent of my friend, either boys or girls.
Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will
also ask you about Lee Harvey.
Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought
any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.
Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his
choice.
Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.
Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether
he brought his friends to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played
around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are
talking about.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing
between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other.
Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same
thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the
military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of
antipathy exist at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did.
Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young
Street address in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. At or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was
that in 1948?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change
was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of
you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of
us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be
correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that
particular time to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind,
I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not
accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself,
on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had
become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had
become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not
used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my
feeling at that time.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April
1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury?
Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of
the nose.
Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her
injury was major or minor?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of
how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so
forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either
two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with
her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something
wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.
Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which
your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the
physicians indicated otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this
injury?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or
did she continue working?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the
accident occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from
the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this
particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from
the service earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his
return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of
his return?
Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter
dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to
me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L.
H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.
Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you
received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You
have the original of that letter before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this
letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well,
pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want
to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important
thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about
September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to
this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he
was going to go about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course,
indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live
and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what
type of work he wanted to do.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter
has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.
How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being
mustered out of the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he
had been discharged?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you
had that he was in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact,
that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being
discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever
talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you
anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one
day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or
four days between his return and going off again.
Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in
the Marines, and any leaves.
Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?
Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.
Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at
this particular point.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the
Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958,
when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill
instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at
Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not.
However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill
instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled
me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the
Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently
this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in
that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall
that conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any
correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in
the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of
his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any
specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine
Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings
or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset
him, or might have made him happy.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available
now? Do you have those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I
do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find
on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any
others.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough
search?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to
us, will you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the
correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous
than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger
flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there
was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more
often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months,
than he had theretofore?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from
Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before
this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer
going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any
way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which
was, of course, a period of time after one year.
Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any
particular town or city in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to
write to him at that time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about
so states.
That is correct, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with
the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time
forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters,
and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your
brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period
that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one
letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite
regular.
Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the
Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission
Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't
written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't
too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family.
Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had
been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he
says, in a long time.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more
clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter
received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two
or three letters.
Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps
September.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter
of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you
this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least
directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the
day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the
purpose of finding employment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this
letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is
that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your
letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the
letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your
re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served
to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which
you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection
refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so,
your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit
294?
Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his
letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went
to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in
the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that
I asked him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know,
for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that
is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not
known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any
intention of going to Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned
by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to
the middle of September 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the
rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of
Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject
matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the
letter of November 8?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had
been studying Russian while in the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I
was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading
during this period?
Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books.
I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I
picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism.
He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed
him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full
scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history
a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great
deal, devote much attention to reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.
Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age,
let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we
better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to
cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the
period of which you speak?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to
New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of
his moving to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some
extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the
nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the
literature he was reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already
stated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever
made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any
books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or
works, or pamphlets of that nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him
reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should
I say, of a political nature.
Mr. JENNER. Even American politics?
Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course,
would go into some degree of American politics.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American
history.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the
United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we
would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when
you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he
says, and startling things he says in this letter.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation
to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line.
I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as
to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was
something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers
prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned----
Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it,
with these utterances in it, did not surprise you?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me
that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I
will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate,"
particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country I
hate."
Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper
clippings or articles?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did.
Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you
advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your
recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I was just making a note on that. I didn't
realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he
hated the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as
to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of
November 8, Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel I have.
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26,
which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for
you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it
extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time,
the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union.
He complained about the economic system in the United States.
Mr. DULLES. System?
Mr. JENNER. System--which he stated exploited all of its workers.
He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the
United States.
He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he
characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed
as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has
posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response
to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey
Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the
present capitalist system of the United States overthrown--he having
made an indication to the witness in that respect.
Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of
suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have
some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey
Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is
why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not
based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and
getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no
borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general.
I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage
of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United
States."
Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in
connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the
letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a
previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in
some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and
this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by
someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other
things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some
eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two
misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of
misspelled words.
And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do
feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them
put together.
Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an
interesting observation.
Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I
observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of
November 26, 1959.
In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the
last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If
you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be
able to pay it back."
I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the
second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined.
"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no
troubles at all now along that line."
Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the
Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the
letter of November 26th, "Note new room number."
Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for
clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the
Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was
it before the other incident that has been described for the record,
with regard to----
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you
please state it?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the
Soviet Union on October 13, 1959.
Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month
and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters
referred to?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have
already mentioned--that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated
that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on
the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far
as funds are concerned--he is in good shape.
Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before
he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first
time?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to
Minsk, as well.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his
letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might
send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money
for his return to the United States, and for that reason only.
I did not enclose any money in my answer.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like
to inquire of you; also, as to its implication.
Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in
evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was
having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the
necessary funds to return to the United States.
Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in
response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would
gladly send him money to return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly
indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little
difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United
States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the
necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now
refer?
Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the
letter of February 15, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315.
Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds
necessary to bring about his return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to
stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family,
for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get
settled himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he
responded directly to your offer to advance funds?
Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters
that you received from him while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from
him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep,
intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from
him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of
those letters to the Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be
necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance
any funds to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him
when he returned in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22,
1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities
that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to
advance the $200?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you
when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a
report.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also,
the letter--let's just stay with the letter of November 26th.
Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee
ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken
to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November
26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist
Russia, or countries of that character?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26,
particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards
the United States and its political and economic and social system?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply
to his letter----
Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was?
Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it
was--and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I
ever wrote.
Mr. JENNER. All right--tell us about it.
Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to--if I may refer to the
first question.
"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk
company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions
against employers in the United States."
I recall I did reply to that statement.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion--and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I
believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies.
It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this
country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or
not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was
voted out.
Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed?
Is it all right to proceed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please.
Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response
to the letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the
second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to
directly in my reply--I recall replying to the statement that was,
that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26,
to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the
segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how
you were laid off at Convair?"
I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid
off at Convair?"
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this
was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in
Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition,
because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not
have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able
to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that
time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say
to me that, "You work here or there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at
Convair?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Resentful?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction?
Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when
I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever
happened to me.
Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place?
Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the
question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason
why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days
after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she
was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly.
Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that,
if I may, please.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence,
regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect
thereto.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. And where was he--let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines
then.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him
that you were no longer with Convair.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about
it when he was on leave in 1958.
Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any
resentment or bitterness in that regard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter
about it.
Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement
you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which
might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his
predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the
Convair comment, in his letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. I also----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with
respect to the union question would your answer be the same?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would.
Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never
expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views
that unions were exploited?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth,
as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these
attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his
letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of
discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that
he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among
you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any
discussion it would have been to the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and
you thought well of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family
as far as you knew?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Proceed with your recollection of your response.
Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on
the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their
puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform,
men who were there because they were drafted or because they were
adventurers or unemployed in civilian life."
I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at
that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my
case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons
behind their joining the United States service.
Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour
in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or
visits on his part to Fort Worth?
Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want
to be sure of it.
(The question was read.)
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might
have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very
proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted
myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not
that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I
progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United
States Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor
left, with the members of your family?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I----
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in
that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that
Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in
the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow----
Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel
like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.
I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined
the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that
same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years
and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but
that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps.
I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than
Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if
there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say
to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss
it with.
I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November
26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the
American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say
freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of
time."
I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the
word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down.
I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the
brief statement, "America is a dying country."
I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this
statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a
sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake.
This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world.
Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter?
Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26.
Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November
26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for
personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it
does not consist of a small home of taking and getting."
I recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having
that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent
that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and
was something of a reward for his efforts.
Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this
is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest
its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to
demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the
attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these
views to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this
letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in
writing this letter.
Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way
we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are
conducting this interrogation.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what
you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your
recollection only what you did write, if you recall.
If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir.
Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and
certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence
of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it
might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly
certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness.
You see no objection?
Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not
be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these
letters on which we are interrogating the witness.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular
line of interrogation.
Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to
decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony.
Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have
no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the
record.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in
full in the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following
the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's
suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I
would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot.
Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have
replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26,
1959.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next
letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of
1959, it is a short one-page letter.
Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the
one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you
made to the November 26 letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any
direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to
the letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and
as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the
letter of December 17, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297.
Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his
letter of November 26, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have
produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298.
Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir?
Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his
letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can
be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to
his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my
daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter.
Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he
did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter.
Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read
it, Mr. Reporter?
(The reporter read the answer.)
Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that
expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he
received your response to his letter of November 26.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a
letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the
United States?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir.
Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his
being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of
any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is
whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds.
Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time,
ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter
with Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to
November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of
time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from
the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one.
Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any
discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that
subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were
you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he
was given or earned?
Mr. OSWALD. While he was----
Mr. JENNER. Or he received?
Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed?
Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that
I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while
employed in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that.
Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your
recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles
and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars.
Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out.
Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any
money by way of gift from any agency in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters
themselves would be the best evidence.
Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist.
Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned
from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while
your brother was there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did you receive?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times.
Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia
stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in
Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts
from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one
consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six
napkins that Marina had embroidered herself.
Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that
pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so
forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch
high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was
the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while
they were in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was that?
Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. And it contained what?
Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book.
Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English?
Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the
book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket
ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite
evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book
for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space
program.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book,
and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie
Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. A child's gift?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book,
a Russian coloring book.
Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you
received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the
child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas,
1961.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee
told you about hunting in Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence?
Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede
that by the question did you have any conversation with him about
hunting in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the
conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on
two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he
had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions
that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were
not allowed to have a rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any
other occasion prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters----
Mr. JENNER. No, discussions.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from
his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership
in a gun club while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership
in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a
social club, a labor union or otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether,
to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges
against him.
Do you recall that?
Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my
knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges
against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen,
and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful
to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done
anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote
him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact
renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship?
Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that
Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that
the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow
him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship.
Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from
doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the
correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident
that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States
citizenship.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise
that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his
return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your
response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were
any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question
of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges?
Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again----
Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the
correspondence which has been introduced in evidence.
Mr. McKENZIE. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr.
Jenner, there are questions raised about this.
Are you talking about after he returned from--to the United States from
the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was
living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there
was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in
returning to the United States, the means and manner of return?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and
what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or
either of them?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New
York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he
advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his
letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from
Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England,
and from England to New York City.
Mr. JENNER. Did he or they----
Mr. OSWALD. He.
Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject
or in her presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where?
Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from
Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow
before they took off for Holland?
Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they
stayed there at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched
England in the sense that the ship----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it
appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long
stay there and that they did not leave the ship.
Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put
it to me.
Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor,
New York City.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early
portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to
whether he was or might be a Russian agent?
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early
stay of his in Russia in 1959?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during
this period of time with your mother or she with you?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Where did this discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give
me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.
Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been
called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?
Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.
Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your
mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian
Government.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it
was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the
United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have
been into indicated that in any way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a
conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent
of the United States Government.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now
having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in
January, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you?
Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and
that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that
she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of
one sort or another for the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response
might have been.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you
don't recall your response?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you
had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is
up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have
been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any
other government including that of Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of
letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur
to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the
Russian Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not.
Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did
the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your
brother was in Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a
previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at
the time.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting
her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of
time your brother was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will
include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963,
have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an
agent of the Russian Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit
301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments
respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you
had of any change of attitude on his part?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in
that connection.
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had
any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961,
that Lee was becoming----
Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted.
Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year
or so of silence----
Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter.
There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.
Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?
Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.
Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not,
because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted
with the Russian way of life.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to
Minsk, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the
undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was
received on the 17th of December, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your
impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or
was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that
he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was
then----
Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May
5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the
reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which
he expressly stated----
Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in
evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that
they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will
now undertake to investigate that circumstance.
Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?
Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit
numbers.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.
Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes,
August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.
You need not do it.
Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the
word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.
Mr. DULLES. That is French.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to
speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother
returned from Russia in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to
speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June
13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and
her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no
answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.
Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better
able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand
English?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she
understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English
language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that
regard become better as the months and years wore on?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you,
respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak
English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth,
Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas,
Tex., in the winter of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her
desires in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect
either pro or con.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he
wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying
at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of
time by him?
Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he
left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that
time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number
of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that
my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would
establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared
that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults
in the family.
Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United
States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or
the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was
still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United
States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body
located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to
supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort
Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you
received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that
you identified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.
Did you send the football to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission
Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not
received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that
you had put to him.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14?
Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you
had written him prior thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in
response to an earlier letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an
earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not
all my letters----
Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961,
Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the
letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of
December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any
letter with 'certain' questions."
I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political
type questions to see whether or not he would receive----
Mr. JENNER. He would respond?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some
earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like
were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my
own way whether this was so or not.
I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of
political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other
letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through
rather than be destroyed or not received by him.
Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received
your letter.
Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United
States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the
subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United
States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that
matter.
Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room
which was the living room of our home.
Mr. JENNER. In your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine
Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps
find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an
honorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was
a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps
office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in
writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not
recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall
any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22,
1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318.
As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said
when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?
Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?
Please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed.
Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we
should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull
them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals?
Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit
number. I have no objection.
I will find out who I should see about making these.
Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?
I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the
matter in context.
Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United
States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I
realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those
things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement
or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the
time we actually arrive in the United States."
Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the
newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something
you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to
something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in
Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers
that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the
newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was
in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper
reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the
United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?
Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his
arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his
departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date
he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication
whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here?
You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at
Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back
from Russia.
Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or
elsewhere?
Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more
specifically, one newspaperman.
Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of
November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving
dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir.
Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day,
November 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding,
leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the
Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas,
Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office
box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex.,
prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to
take a leave----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving
dinner.
Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force--he called me
from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during
the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel
from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and
asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his
family.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and
wife were to join you on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your
mother, was also to join you on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from
Lee Harvey Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320.
Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind
invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth
Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on
the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."
Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. JENNER. Who?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. You and your wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your children?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time.
Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?
Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic.
Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the
fact that she was not present at the dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by
way of employment in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that
particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a
traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However,
he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the
firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he
could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.
Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this
occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.
Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your
half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's
un-American beliefs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it
confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you
not?
Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John,
since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or
when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.
Mr. JENNER. You state it.
Mr. DULLES. Was John present?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. He was present.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John.
Mr. DULLES. Was he present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this
conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to
pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do
not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I
brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked
to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were
not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not
holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right
in that respect.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my
house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and
talk with them.
Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The
details of it?
Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What details?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon
how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last
whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His
reply was "Don't you know?"
Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday.
Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had--excuse
me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our
country?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion
that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to
our country?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus
station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not
holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time
they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything
as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia,
everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect
him of anything.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New
Orleans at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after
Thanksgiving dinner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. That same day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from
that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?
In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection,
and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the
Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out
in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.
Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right.
Do you remember that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place.
Mr. McKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962.
Mr. DULLES. Right.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last
question?
Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you
before you could make another question.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it?
Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question?
(The last question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their
departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of
them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. In the interim period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making
that call as you recall it?
Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he
said no, they were visiting some friends.
Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very
shortly.
Mr. JENNER. That was a social call?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone
on that particular time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that
occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any
other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving
Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November----
Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day.
Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after
November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned,
up to the time of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that
period?
Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that.
Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your
dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you
received from him is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a
postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date.
Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962,
Thanksgiving Day?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
One postcard dated January 10, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.
Did you receive any other correspondence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What date?
Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.
Did you receive any other correspondence from him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you
have now identified?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in
response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.
The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written
him approximately the first week of March 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if
you made one, did you retain a copy?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark.
I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed
my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an
opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I
had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if
possible, we would like to have them visit us.
Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?
Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there?
Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to----
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you
were residing in Malvern, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.
Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963,
to approximately September 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.
All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962,
and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with
Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with
Lee rather?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or
with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired
it or she did?
Mr. OSWALD. During that period?
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take
place?
Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it?
Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there.
Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a
conversation with me.
Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any
other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a
discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of
either of them to Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.
Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom.
Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very
broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."
Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your
presence and your wife's presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had
returned from Russia did this conversation take place?
Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or
did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire
on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some
contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and
your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two
or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas,
Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise
passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina
and the child.
His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17,
1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would
always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach
him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his
family when I came through town.
Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you?
Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not
settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern
me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963
which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.
Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post
office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I
did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote
him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving
into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that
time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas
so that I might contact him, since again we were close together,
approximately 30 miles away.
Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him
in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County
Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had
an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in
Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.
In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to
advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of
his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in
your mind?
Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps----
Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That you testified about.
Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have
anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that
this would be out of character for him because he normally would
keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth,
even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I
understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated----
Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or three requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different
nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having
trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting
along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this
would be my only speculation on that, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period
we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to
effect a contact with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife?
No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother,
as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at
least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the
correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have
testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon
his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as
long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall
of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now
testified about?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital
difficulties?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter
of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did
not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.----
Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it?
Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was
going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent
that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service
and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this,
because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was
in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused
me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I
had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that
I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in
any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.
I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman,
Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the
examination in that respect.
Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are
you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your
brother upon General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.
Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at
any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not.
Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention?
Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the
latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.
Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind
or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had
carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than
school boy antics?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or
indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a
schoolboy----
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself,
that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions
that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from
your knowledge of him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was
that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of
being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been
people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many
of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an
introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a
statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I
think on this record.
Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with
him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend
to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily
repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my
departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends,
and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the
service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.
Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were
away?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the
service?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us.
Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to
be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know
of any friends that he had at that particular time.
One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a
number of times during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from
you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring
and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more
drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read
more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself.
However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did
not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that
that persisted when he returned from Russia?
Was he still of that retiring nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a
gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to
talk to people.
Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother
and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my
office.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without
invitation?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to
him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had
moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent
that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just
to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to
the house and return them to their home.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission
to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much
away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina
had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk
Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further
light on that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this
group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas,
and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to
my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian
language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that
he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons,
and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group
of people.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain
man named De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today,
has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of
De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on
the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated
off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De
Mohrenschildt.
I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner.
Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women
jurors----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years.
I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have
women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury
in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same
jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De
Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this
case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have
since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.
George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from
Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently
divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes
from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged
in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.
Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt,
remarried and married another M.D.
Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that
she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor
that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital
in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a
children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was
connected with some blood type ailment.
Mr. JENNER. Leukemia?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne
Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas
Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.
George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some
time within the past two years there was an article on George De
Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip
that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central
America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas
or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central
America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that
George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In
fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.
I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and
Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his
physical appearance, the one you have in mind?
Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six
foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215
pounds.
Mr. JENNER. Age?
Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has
got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression
or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian
or of the Slavic races.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression
of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?
Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I
have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De
Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General
Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have
drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action
on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised
as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the
rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy
in that assassination?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see
the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination
of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that
character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about
any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was
occupying?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him
to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber
rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New
Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased
this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for
the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it
back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place
between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you
have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm,
be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and
including, the 23d of November, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your
presence and his presence during all of that period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying
at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first
week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws'
farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front
of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after
looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and
that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from
the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of
present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at
no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United
States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the
possession of a firearm of any kind or character?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting
trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962----
Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.
Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in
the negative?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your
knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated
by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?
Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those
establishments?
Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your
present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection,
could you give me an answer?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer
to----
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of
Representative Ford's questions at the moment.
Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of
some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified
further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw
a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the
newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the
man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November
23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took
place, who was present and what the circumstances were?
Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington,
Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe
of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police
officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags,
and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was
present----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like".
Do you mean you are speculating?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base
that belief.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents,
at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents
present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would
be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly,
there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either
Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.
Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be.
Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another
room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot
identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack
Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me----
Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man
known as Jack Ruby.
Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me----
Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that
two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms
where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that
at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother
had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door
fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated
was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.
Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret
Service man?
Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man?
Mr. DULLES. The FBI man.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your
mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her
by an FBI man.
Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man----
Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother
said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your
mother made that statement?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said,
and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us
what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police
officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret
Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to
mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like
that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.
Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to
her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture
being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown
her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing
that picture?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show
it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she
was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as
to the stability of your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963----correction, prior to November
24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However,
during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24,
1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to
the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d
afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at
first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.
However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from
approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other
matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963,
were abnormal reactions.
Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best
of your knowledge thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29,
1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion
on that at this time.
Mr. JENNER. One way or the other?
Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on
Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather
than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting
that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home.
Will you identify him, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I
am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory,
or vice versa.
Mr. JENNER. It is Peter.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort
Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the
last week in June, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with
them in his native Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me
correctly. I believe he was by himself.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood,
having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion,
as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you
temporarily?
Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The
preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at
one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that
someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment
with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write
the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of
some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job
speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee----
Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your
home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having
told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you
understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is
not the fact.
Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr.
Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr.
Gregory visited your home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?
Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that
Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this
occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did
read----
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to
the present time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't
know whether it exists?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall
it?
Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to
speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general
remembrance of this letter.
Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.
Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?
Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he
told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia
approximately----
Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to
that time.
Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your
brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at
your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr.
Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that?
Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.
Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an
interview with that lady?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency?
Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr.
Gregory as a possible source?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment?
Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf
to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk
with him in relation to employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first
acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory
existed?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother
report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency
with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian
derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible
assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that
conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or
at least approximately then?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina
primarily?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with
Lee or with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with
her prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other
close friends of Lee's?
Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.
Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired
into also, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the
names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in
June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of
the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul
Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of
'62?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time
Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that
time, but I do not recall that he did.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the
house.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in
your home, to which you have already alluded?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on
that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of
my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either
the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State
University, at which he was studying the Russian language.
And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university,
and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language,
besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the
Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or
with Marina in Russian on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. He did with both.
Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with
Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the
Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in
advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any.
Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or
talked with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first
time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning,
November 24, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President
Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort
Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How did that come about?
Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at
that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive
Inn at Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous?
Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service
agent, Mike Howard.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it?
Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to
Dallas.
Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or
spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that? Is it recorded in your diary?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have
in mind.
Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25,
1963.
Mr. JENNER. In what city or town?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter
between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of
your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the
United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and
Peter Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.
Mr. JENNER. None?
Mr. OSWALD. None.
Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your
sister-in-law Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first
time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February
11, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that
time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you
can recall none other--no other persons?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already
discussed, and others you may have discussed.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection
or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that
subject in the correspondence you have produced for us?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your
brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias
Jack Ruby?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?
Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon
which you can base an opinion.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack
Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not.
Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.
Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to
add or could add?
Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he
wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.
Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion.
Do you have an opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the
week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of
Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that
they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as
the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these
reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee
Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only
that that you voice this opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through
various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route
taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding
house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or
approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your
sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.
Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present
during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my
decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took,
your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now
recall about it?
Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn----
Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it?
Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that.
Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages----
Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I
talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr.
Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall
vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back
up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was
Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that
Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed
with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in
Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with
her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this,
whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her
was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that
this was the thing to do at that time.
Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people
you have mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her
residing with your mother discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an
alternative.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion
prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by
anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between
me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside
in her place.
Mr. JENNER. As a possibility?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might----
Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not,
was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of
Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period
of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being
considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation
such as that.
Mr. JENNER. I forgot now.
Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the
interpreter?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday,
November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I
was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr.
Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his
family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did
not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim
Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.
Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer.
Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.
After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question--
Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr.
Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service
agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end
of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours,
perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate
room.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related
to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his
home, and the children into his home.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you.
You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not
theretofore become acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen
so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember
which man was Mr. Martin.
And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know
him from then on.
Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of
a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew
little or nothing?
Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was
my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a
complete strange family.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own
mind on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I
stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and
her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not.
Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For what reason?
Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas
police office, as previously testified.
Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you
met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her
desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the
Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine
and live.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to
her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the
thing to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know
why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs.
Paine.
Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response.
What did you say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were
the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you
please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't
think they are the proper people"?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult.
Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct
the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his
recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may.
Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?
Mr. McKENZIE. Surely.
Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way?
Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that
Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the
question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I
think he is trying to answer your question.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they
do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.
I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and
recite what occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever
you wish to do?
Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the
Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now
testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were
not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please
call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can,
exactly what you said to her in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because
of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand
signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And
I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this
line--something of that nature, sir.
That is the best I can do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or
statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction
of that--was that Saturday night, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations
about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more
indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the
language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe,
was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it
was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice
in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes
that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and
it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr.
Paine from time to time would visit there.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina
this advice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to
time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and
not divorced. Isn't that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also.
And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday
night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.
Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina
and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine
that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would
take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the
looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs.
Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult
situation, I will explain it on the way."
Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that
Marina would reside with the Martins?
Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir.
On Thursday, the ensuing night.
Mr. JENNER. The following day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the
treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence?
Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my
mother.
Mr. JENNER. You do not?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United
States Secret Service agents there.
Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford
has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want
to cover that.
You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your
mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will
withdraw that.
Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.
Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom
she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.
Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly"
in your opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you
have in mind was treating her harshly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret
Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses,
and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her
normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?
Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give
a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six
Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front
door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be
approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange
at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am
attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best
of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."
And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not
unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.
And that was the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness,
that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your
mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission
that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she
asserts that the FBI did not interview her.
Do you have any information on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25,
sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs.
Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.
I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.
And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by
the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI
agents, had you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary.
Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course.
But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your
mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your
mother?
Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in
Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November
27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November
26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.
And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me
by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview
Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And did they do so?
Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they
interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to
interview her at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United
States Secret Service.
Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe
the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there--I can identify one of
them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr.
Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the
other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr.
Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the
agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at
the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in
your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the
FBI agents on this particular day.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through
Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the
FBI agent on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. That she did not----
Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting
Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after
their departure.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?
Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.
And other Secret Service agents.
Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?
Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who
had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another
location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding
territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.
Mr. JENNER. In the home?
Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took
place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at
least.
Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22,
1963, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one
agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman
that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to
him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his
interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular
interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so.
His manner was very harsh, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of
conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this
gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident
there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to
the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting,
sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might
state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were
opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's
attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where
they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they
were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there,
that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words,
that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to
Russia.
I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service
into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that
I realized there was some friction here between the United States
Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion
that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape
recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been
interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before
the FBI arrived at the location.
Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to
know that they had taped an interview with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response?
Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."
I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of
tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would
not get it that way.
And he said he would speak to her.
Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on
the telephone.
I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail,
and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.
Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They spoke English?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman,
not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back
to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same
implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room,
and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for
the second time that he please say something to them about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI
that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she
had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred
to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the
condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the
tape recording at this time.
And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You
certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."
Mr. JENNER. And did you?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew,
who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round
coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so
much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I
was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented
the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her
apparent uncooperative attitude.
Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and
highly cooperative.
And I returned to my chair at the table.
They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald
at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of
interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.
I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on
what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.
As the other gentlemen arose----
Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?
Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of
the FBI agents.
And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the
attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke
very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of
me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."
Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned
to him to cut it off right here.
Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.
About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come
outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said
he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert
Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the
adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown
asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed
and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said
this was so.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct.
Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I
believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been
mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown?
Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you
all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return
from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The
information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which
now has been identified and admitted in the record?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect
to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your
brother Lee when he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting
that----
Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in
Crowell, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note?
Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had
to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle
everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used
in the letter--that I do so.
Mr. JENNER. That you do what?
Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to
forward to Lee.
This I did not do, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition
to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the
subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in
Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your
presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.
Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did
assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he
had borrowed from the State Department?
Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir.
Mr. DULLES. He did not request it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And he refused?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that
your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from
Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his
regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for
Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that
month that he was at your home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the
relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in
their--as husband and wife?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that.
Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that
respect?
Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice
to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general
tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.
Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?
Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate.
Mr. JENNER. Of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some
little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or
something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. DULLES. What was it?
Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence.
Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Silence.
Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or
rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on
her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing
to her to be perhaps reprimanded.
Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your
brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through
Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal
course.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal
attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them
appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to
the baby June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during
this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving
Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married
life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in
which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I
don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone,
including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his
having physically harmed her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. By anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November
23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some
physical harm on your sister-in-law?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though
a black eye had been inflicted upon her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has
stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could
understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the
period up to and including November 22, 1963.
What is your opinion on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit
further, that her understanding of the English language is less than
what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount
that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my
attention since her visit to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any
extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience
with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even
to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the
present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she
has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak
in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more
English words than she can read or understand.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed
view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater
extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned
to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there
were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone
else, that would be relevant to this matter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.
Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that
might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom
they were intended as between herself and Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia,
was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed
with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is,
apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him
on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your
presence?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mr. OSWALD. None.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she
ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.
Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever
inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including
November 23, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no
knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise
molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to
celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of
1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that.
Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children
traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas,
Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with
Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were
there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending
there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of
your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service
kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following
November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.
Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right.
Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person
your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell
you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her
testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this
afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate
upon that?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came
to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that
my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a
phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas,
while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they
were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of
the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home.
And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's
home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of
fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to
Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what
was said that night.
Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as
to the stability of your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic
event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of
course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's
residence.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
You have testified to ownership of rifles.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that.
Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving,
Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed
by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here
dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one
between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.
Do we have that contract?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit
number.
And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where
I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas,
Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne
has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas.
Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but
regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel
his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an
interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately
contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed
in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her
community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate
of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being
held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of
$100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business
contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr.
Thorne.
I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have
Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this
evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I
further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified
mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have
Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina
Oswald.
And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance
Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.
Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about
it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an
agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and
Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the
record, and have been produced.
And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne
and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney
and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise
notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.
And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs.
Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to
represent her as a retainer.
Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her?
Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of
any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit
of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand
any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent
that she is able to use and understand it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French?
Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.----
Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was
brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television
commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French
vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to
that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five
other words, and she said that was about all of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of
his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man
or men?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject
ever take place in your presence by anybody?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian
emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.
George Bouhe?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime
of your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person,
subsequent to his death?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when?
Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's
home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with
Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is
the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and
Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own
child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.
Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your
brother Lee in public?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through
other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with
respect to your brother's sexual power?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina
ever discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were
made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife,
Vada?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your
brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's
lifetime, ever hear any discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. On that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the
course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In
particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.
What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your
memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course
of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may
satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police
station?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything----
Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.
Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else
you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?
Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected
record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I
suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted
in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?
Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that.
Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask
Mr. Oswald a few things.
Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the
President first came to your attention, where you were, where you
proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the
subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout
the course of the day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with
anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject
matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do.
Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to
the City Jail?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of
the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of
November?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would
wish also to join in and put to you.
Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there
anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in
your notebook?
Mr. OSWALD. Well----
Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the
course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did
not recall at the time you made those entries?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in
here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention
to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at
the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred
to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal
nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested
in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would
certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed
it necessary.
Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I
understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your
willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport
to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d,
23d, and 24th, and during that week.
Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that
might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?
Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it
again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read
it, to cover the area you have indicated.
I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems
to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I
had not had the diary available.
Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined
the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it
would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but
not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these
proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I
think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the
Commission.
Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. It is in the record.
Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the
record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take
the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will
forward the tape to us.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.
Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at
that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which
you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential
for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?
Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the
attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be
in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a
little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at
any time.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am
not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always
have to reserve that for the Commission.
Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which
we would like your testimony.
For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in
the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will
be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those
events recorded in the memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is
some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would
likewise add that to the memorandum.
Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323
describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following
days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at
this point.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in
New Orleans since November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not.
Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split
between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir----
Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?
Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Will you tell us about it? What led to it and----
Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever
all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already
testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your
sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the
Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering
my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question
whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the
Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether
Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.
Am I correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain?
Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after
our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that
question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from
Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from
her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were
advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting
that she contact Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. What was the date?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21.
Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what?
Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak
with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to
speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did
not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my
opinion for her to call her on the phone.
I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her
letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or
Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no
contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her,
Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your
knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or
Mrs. Paine is concerned?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if
Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of
any such contact?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a
moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with
Elena Hall at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please.
No, sir. I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the
month of October, 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living.
Mr. JENNER. And what city was that?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the
date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs.
Hall?
Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your
brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not.
Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not
know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you
supposed, somewhere in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
If I might make one correction, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post
dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two
days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first
part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal
correspondence you receive from others?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular
correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother
while he was in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and
you retained that as well.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your
brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959?
Mr. JENNER. I am.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that
followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United
States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?
Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or
his going to Russia?
Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of
attitude.
Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to
the United States from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as
expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959,
and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a
surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers.
Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would
certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very
strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he
would change his mind and return to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to
the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day
before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee
outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke
in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.
Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir?
Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did
you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you
seeking that May letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to
the letter of May 22, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is
there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return,
projected return, to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please?
Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S.
Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days
in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for
America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."
Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to
Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England
and then went directly to the United States.
Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down
where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America
probably in New Orleans."
Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and
yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between
yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United
States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either
or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the
lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the
possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27,
1960.
Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name
Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?
Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our
interview or our conversation.
Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have
given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.
Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I
just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on
the 18th of April, 1960.
I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with
the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30
days later.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to
you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject
matter, first.
Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my
brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was
put.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of
your brother's defection?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir.
Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason?
Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might
have known about his defection.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection,
there was no discussion of that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted
by any Soviet officials discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In
case any----
Mr. JENNER. Any representative.
Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line
contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care
of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.
Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to
Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.
Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since
that date?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that.
Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.
Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any
such people for any item of personal identification of your brother
discussed with Mr. Fain.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.
Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of
this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether
the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by
Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.
Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by
personal identification?
Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification.
Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying.
Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really.
Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be
identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration
cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the
sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars
that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar
that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall
which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an
earlier date.
Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject
that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other
possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such
an inquiry had been made of you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further
understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a
nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly
identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of
this inquiry.
Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification
was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the
fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on
his body?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on
September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three
months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia.
Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr.
Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother
Lee's activities in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?
Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr.
Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your
knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over
the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this
time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by
telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation
you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the
Russians.
Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit
such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny
it.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge
or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on
that date or approximately that date?
Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around
that date, and also by telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said
to you and where and what the circumstances were?
Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she
acknowledged that Mr. Fain----
Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired----
Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had
recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his
efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.
Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than
you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was
courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of
such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer
whether or not we had heard from him recently.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had
been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI
as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United
States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September,
1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in
any event, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I
believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon
as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to
arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention
then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when
she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI
when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time,
if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type
of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise
her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge
of it.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no
discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in
Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed
your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?
In other words, approximately five weeks later?
Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately
correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that
subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr.
Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and
requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like
to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.
This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI
had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.
Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion
between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of
your brother's arrival in the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that
your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort
Worth and were living with you and with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my
conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of
the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and
requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to
speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this
was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would
assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.
If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent,
and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say
this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in
June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.
Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But
as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said
nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr.
Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's
return.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with
you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the
general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I
was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.
The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and
spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired----
Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least
by that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had.
Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that
time as that of Mr. Fain?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What did he say and what did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and
to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know
the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I
gave him this location.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him?
Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was
located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on
West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks
from West 7th Street.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself
this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we
thank you.
However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and
Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can----
Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.
Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner
has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception
of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked,
and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.
And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do
know that you have plans and if we can meet----
Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow.
Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the
Commission's----
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning.
And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.
(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Saturday, February 22, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present was Allen W. Dulles, member.
Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William
McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.
Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of
the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government
investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret
Service at this time?
Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr.
Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency
that he does recall at this time.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is
pertinent.
Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see
what it was.
Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please.
Excuse me.
There was one other Government agency that interviewed you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately
January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex.,
approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home
from Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Had he called you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to
him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us
some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir.
My wife----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this?
Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the
gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly
satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately
7 or 7:30 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. And you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name
was?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not
recall what his name was.
It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was
with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of
having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with
Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form
outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall
any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or
four questions, in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet
Union, and quite surprised, I do recall, myself that he was not aware
of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the
Soviet Union.
And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact
the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was
acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the
background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald.
I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that
time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an
"ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to
the United States.
Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring,
was Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed
that they were planning to come back, was it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to
the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would
be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Of what nature--her age?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of
the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage
to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering
if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had
evidence that she was married to your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but
perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on
Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her
specifically?
Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were
addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to
whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in
Russia, and had been in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.
I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he
assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in
Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's
reported reasons for going to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his
conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of
the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in
Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified.
I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred
him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received
correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been
in touch with each other?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then
his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of
the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as
to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in
turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a
citizen of Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some
set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in
which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent
upon what your answers to the previous questions were?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions
he was referring to when he spoke to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your
occupation, and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to
the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that
particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical
appearance?
Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to
be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10,
perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I
might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night,
I requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if
Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that
time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess
I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it
was approved.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular
incident?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with
you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's
stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State
Department being in contact with me.
And I might further add that at this particular time, after the
Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior
testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only
times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency.
Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that
period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other
government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close
friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that
period.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by
the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same
day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported
to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent
of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten
now just how you phrased it.
Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?"
Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there
any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your
brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of
the United States Government with your brother, after his return from
Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that
question, that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his
wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI
had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their
car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the
agents?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean
the middle of August?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of
August 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is,
did it come through your brother initially to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me
at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that
they did want to speak to him.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as
you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with
your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he
volunteer it?
Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now.
Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your
brother related this to you?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was
in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home?
Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street--either the afternoon or
the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me,
sir, that the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in
their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview,
anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did
report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile,
in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes
Street--is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall
it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my
recollection of that particular occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is,
others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when
he recited the event?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any further comment about that
particular event at that time.
Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point.
This is slightly on a different subject.
Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were
present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not.
Mr. JENNER. I think not.
Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression
that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might
call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many
contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome
their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the
house on Mercedes Street.
Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did
Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about
that?
Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that
particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth.
If I may, sir----
Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what
impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident?
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.
During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I
was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes
Street address----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents
with your brother in the automobile near their home?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be
so, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity
of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a
certain amount per hour for this instruction.
Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information?
Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on
Mercedes Street, I was informed----
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to
arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth,
Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in
the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her
time, and for the instruction.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you
that, in addition to yourself and your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did
Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent
to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that
generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like
she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more
or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood
that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in
the Russian language for his benefit.
And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to
me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that
this had occurred.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have
brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which
you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read.
On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964,
there is an article there----
Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis,
correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21,
which I would like to put into the record.
Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record----
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished
this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it
pertinent to this particular point?
Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner.
But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the
record, or make a statement into the record at this time.
Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article,
that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement
to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald
was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before
this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an
appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press.
And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or
what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this
Commission.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the
record at this point.
Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second,
please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of
this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same
manner in which Robert Oswald has testified.
Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or
its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon
as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press
interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I
think it is fair to the Commission.
And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like
to have this article inserted in the record.
Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York
Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article
referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964.
Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on
February 22.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald
given any statements to the press as set forth in this article,
particularly his testimony to the Commission.
And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to
the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and
subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press
statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation,
and I have stated this to the press.
And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any
statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission.
And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline
February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the
Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from
someone on the Commission's staff.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having
been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of
leaking, and many ways of leaking.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too
strong.
But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself
made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously
been given to the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further----
Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I
have been with both of you most of the time.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by
someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it
was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with
you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should
investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it
is reprehensible.
Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice.
Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way.
Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that
Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost
a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he
appeared to be under a strain."
"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the
assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962."
Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is
testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article.
There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could
have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or
newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this
article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's
records.
Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to
subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness'
testimony.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that
they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the
Commission by Robert Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically
asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the
witness about that prior to that time.
Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the
statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before
the morning, afternoon and evening sessions.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add
that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you
have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the
witness.
And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the
press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice.
I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason
I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under
strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the
Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has
not given any statements to the press nor have I.
Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and
respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the
case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to,
as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that
have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the
hearings.
The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss
the proceedings.
Am I correct, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And
that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to
take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until
such time as he is released from that oath.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought
specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir.
When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the
process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in
the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory,
the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home
and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking
to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of
instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory,
who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you
had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in
the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took
sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was
indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial
basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul
Gregory, and would be paid for it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I
think you said.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall
the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and
remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour.
I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee
Oswald on that occasion.
I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory
was due to arrive.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that
interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to
believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to
break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their
Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?
Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his
and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time
that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course
of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that
had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your
impression was that this was not arising for the first time that
evening.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that
time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than
my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove
around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your
impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least
somewhat before this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event
which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your
brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and
Marina, and their Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall
that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian
language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that
particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen
their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at
the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate
response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated
or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted
somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street,
some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at
least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and
Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I
stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time
they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of
persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on
the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in
contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr.
Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously
had related to a subsequent period.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.
I was not here when Marina testified.
It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries
on this subject.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was
Mr. Paul Gregory?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately
20 or 21 years of age.
Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met
Paul Gregory.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior
contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in
this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and
Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or
implied, at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark
that led to that conclusion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made
at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were
or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee
Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a
lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort
Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions
in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory
arose?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I
recall, was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your
attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source,
the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons
other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use
of the Russian language on the part of someone else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question
fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day
that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence
on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to
Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on
Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas
when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct.
I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave,
were there any further occasions on which you received the impression,
at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or
voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the
facility or use of the Russian language by someone else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that
perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to
instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to
Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living
with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your
brother in their home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am
about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of
the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire
whether any of these names are familiar to you.
Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member
of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your
mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons:
Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness
first.
Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any
of the following persons:
One, George Senator?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is
also unfamiliar to you.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
If you would like, may I suggest that you read the entire list and if
any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce
Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson,
alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or
Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee
McDonald, also known as Joy Dale.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned
by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your
family, including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were
acquainted with any of these people?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your
mother and your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited
any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in
the Dallas-Fort Worth area:
The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23,
1963--is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. It is, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list.
The Bullpen Drive-in; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign
Club.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these
establishments.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been in any of these establishments?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking
habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating
liquor?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular
point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had
alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any,
or did not have any?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your
attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a
social drinker?
That is, were you present when others might have been having a social
drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any
event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that
there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an
intoxicating liquor?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to
November 23, 1963, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type
of alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the
present time.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of
occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage.
Mr. JENNER. And has it been just an occasional drink, purely social
drinking?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being
a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six
Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed,
and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular
time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some
difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk
supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was
brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a
time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of
milk.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother
participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence
respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night
club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and
when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which
intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but
this was prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in
the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or
restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs
and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle,
the nightclub circle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates,
either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub
entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or
musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did
include myself in that statement, did you not?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way
acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an
entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school
with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe
his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of
programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other
western and detective type series programs on television.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted
with Mr. Williams.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates
of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses,
bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers?
You know what a bouncer is?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally
acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were
acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun
clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have
joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or
not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people.
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort
Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted
with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in
Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are
fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would
be repetitious.
What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I
believe was also part of a gun club.
And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice
range.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity
of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time
met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places
reputedly frequented by homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy
attitude?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if
he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and
homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular
question.
Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to
put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you
answering the questions with that in mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I
read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and
concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family
or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that
these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact
you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman,
but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it.
Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the
fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of
time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may
have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a
short time in October 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have
no information on this subject.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George
De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were
unacquainted with this gentleman.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present
when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr.
De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered
against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat.
Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with
the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of
papers, are you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time
prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the
pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also
acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect
to the Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does
not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel
confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not
contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some
ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina
when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian
with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was
not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and
consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling,
visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr.
Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that
answer.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and
affiliations?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did
you not, and in Russian matters?
Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me.
Mr. DULLES. By Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news
articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention.
Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines
particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than
your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and
later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to
that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a
meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in
the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in
the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being
introduced to them, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and
when it first arose?
Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at
the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with
Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs.
Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John
Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina
N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the
only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were
taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would
perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the
approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over
to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was
staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment
to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be
well taken care of. And at that time we left.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with
Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in
contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr.
Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number
of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home
in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only
comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me,
as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with
Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and
your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware
of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived
with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister.
Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether
Marina did any shopping on her own?
Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one
afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir.
It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with
my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the
first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the
conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown
in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find
Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother
that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the
baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16
blocks into downtown Fort Worth.
It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her
directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return
home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that
apparently she did not have any other difficulty.
It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some
baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself.
Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any
shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or
stores by Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963.
Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you
may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the
child, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. That was afterward.
Mr. DULLES. That was afterward?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance.
In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and
the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the
occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for----
Mr. JENNER. June of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my
knowledge----
Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that
Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is
found in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion.
Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the
opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or
an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to
the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her
presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite
a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed.
Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed?
Mr. OSWALD. Surprised----
Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk.
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to
indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen
anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous
reaction on her part?
Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and
anyone accompanying you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the
spontaneity.
Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of
showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the
supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both?
Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both.
If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I
usually purchased groceries from.
Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around
the town?
Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she
selected some items.
Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a
certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee
leave her money?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not?
Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not.
Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about
your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions,
perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this
early stage of her being in this country.
Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified,
I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all
appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in
the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that.
Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and
Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made
this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new
surroundings?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving
the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping
center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall
going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied,
window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of
clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed
in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less
encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large
appliances at this time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted
with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her
part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of
clothing for little June or for herself?
Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as
related by my mother to me.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. It is not.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am
incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that
your mother was opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite
affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you
unequivocally her opposition?
Give us those circumstances, please.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she
firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been
little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not
recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least
having objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you,
that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. In what period?
Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House?
Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I
think they had a room and moved out.
Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel
yesterday.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right.
My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November
23, 1963----
Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday.
Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as
noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the
page to which you have reference now?
Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote
it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I
received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised
she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe."
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was
the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel
rather than the Baker Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves
moved to Executive House.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on
Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn.
Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the
Executive Inn?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for
them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people?
Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November
23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex.,
she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina
Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life
magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these
rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the
situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the
Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about
it again.
Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under
the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six
Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November
24.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in
the same party.
Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive
Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they
are recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina
and your mother?
Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that.
Mr. JENNER. Are you sure?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair.
Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered.
Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir?
Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following
November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the
Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your
presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service
men on the one hand and Marina on the other?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of
asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there
was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina
against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the
memory of your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings
at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there
any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of
any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed
with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were
carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina,
did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion,
or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the
cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also.
Mr. JENNER. In addition?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we
described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary.
Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary.
Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in
connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you
would like to add to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not.
Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events
subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn,
and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as
to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing
Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full
statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret
Service agents.
Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first?
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they
were not attempting to influence Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be
completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any
impression in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state it?
Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the
Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday,
November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that
were present at one time or another did anything other than to be
extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to
affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or
in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on
November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape
recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that
happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of
the Six Flags.
In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at
all times.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to
the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the
first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview
as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the
second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second
interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in
an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is
this another one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an
interview.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night,
November 27, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents
and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the
room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the
adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to
the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my
understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview.
However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he
was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area.
I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night
progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state
of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had
occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk
for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own
personal welfare at this time.
And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened
the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had
awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald.
He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my
memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did
that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did
it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length
and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was
quite late at night.
Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping
an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of
the United States Secret Service.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is
involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again?
(The reporter read the question.)
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary?
That is, that she is not?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any
conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on
November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service,
Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or
plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion?
Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information
or any evidence we would like to have it.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along
that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it
is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely
on his own without any assistance whatsoever.
Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any
government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like
he had assistance of one nature or another, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I
want you to answer his question fully.
Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency
of the United States Government.
Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr.
Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the
United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service,
the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or
plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is
concerning the same.
Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the
opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way
involved with the assassination of the President of the United States
on November 22, 1963.
Does that answer the question?
Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey
Oswald. Would you go that far?
Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I
am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion.
Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the
Immigration and Naturalization.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first
undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an
opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have
had some assistance.
Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with
what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that
Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United
States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel
that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was
given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps
training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used.
I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had
reference to.
Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on
the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your
brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots?
Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own
words.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him
to state it again.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on
the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have
read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the
event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that
I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points,
that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the
United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally.
Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit?
Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir,
on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on
the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our
conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye
witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to
him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in
Dallas, Tex.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina----
Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that.
You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or
would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he
did--roughly to that effect, I believe.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of
help, where that could have come from, who was involved.
I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist
plot, an anarchist plot?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you
pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how.
Mr. DULLES. And who.
Mr. JENNER. May have assisted.
Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion.
And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or
memorandum----
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how,
but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."
I am still of that opinion, sir.
And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any
way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify
them in any way.
Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions----
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed.
Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time.
I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like
to add something to my previous statement there.
Mr. DULLES. Please, yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would
be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother,
Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey
Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only
other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like
would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on
newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities,
to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall
reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2
or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald,
in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police
station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station
to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able
to move about the Dallas police station very easily.
Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the
opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to
Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in
my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have
read in the press subsequent to November 22?
Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up
until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried
through from the time of the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events
immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest
in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police
department?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station.
Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had
previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination
of the President.
Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your
relationship with your brother.
Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that
your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a
derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever
discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he
was only President for the last 3 years.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned
President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or
con.
Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally.
Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter
to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the
dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the
United States Marine Corps.
Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary
of the Navy, and later Governor?
Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered
in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony.
Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would like to have that. And
I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well.
Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some
testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not
expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally,
but rather the contrary. I would like to get your impression of that,
what he might have said to you on that subject.
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between
myself and Lee Harvey Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which
time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the
discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he
advised me that he had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John
B. Connally, and that Mr. Connally, or his office had replied that he
was no longer the Secretary of the Navy, and that he had turned over
the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I
believe.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And
he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr.
Connally.
Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy?
Mr. JENNER. As a person?
Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event
you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever
express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about
President Kennedy one way or the other?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed
any views on Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed
antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall.
Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said
in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the
Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his
return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that
government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in
the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the
letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his
letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that
he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular
leader or the government of the United States.
Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would.
Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds,
institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he
said in his letters?
I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not.
Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last
question at the end.
Do you wish to follow up on any of these points?
Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment.
Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like
to clear up.
Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant.
Would you please locate those plants?
Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located
approximately a mile apart, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you
are employed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk
about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was
distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that
come to your attention at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not.
Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became--you ever heard
of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance,
on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's
connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the
fact whether he knew there was a committee.
Mr. JENNER. Both.
I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any
time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling
any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part.
Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any
activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,
prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas,
Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an
announcer--I assume a radio station announcer--called you. Did you find
that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the area that you are referring to. The
announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And what did the announcer say?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated
that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection
with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the
United States on or about that approximate time.
Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character,
or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement
of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman
Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made?
Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this
announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the
announcement on the radio at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when
you heard that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat
stunned.
Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not
absorb it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own
personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to
trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak,
that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity.
Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything
in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the
moment--you retain a grip on yourself?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to.
Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least
your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving
at the moment?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you
immediately called your wife Vada.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television
or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She
stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to
television. In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at
that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to
Lee by name.
Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told
her you were going to come right home.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to your
brother's arrest.
Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he had been
arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means?
Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in
our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother
has been arrested."
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard."
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has
been arrested?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact
words.
Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it
is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination
of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he
wanted to state that, to complete his statement.
Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular
conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise
me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed?
Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted,
but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe
that to be 1220 Thomas Place.
Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What did you say to her?
Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately
started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in
contact with a Star Telegram reporter.
Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star
Telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of
this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money
to fly down immediately.
I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was
not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as
fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at
the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there.
I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the
Baker Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station,
on the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office,
and a gentleman by the name of Reger.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick
Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I
read your writing correctly. Bill----
Mr. OSWALD. Darwin.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in
your notes?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those
gentlemen?
Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that
I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just
heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I
was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the
office.
And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the
FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to
me or to locate me.
Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in
touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon
completion of our conversation.
Mr. JENNER. And you did so?
Mr. OSWALD. I did so.
Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that----
Mr. DULLES. By telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and
all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed
either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and
nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at
the time you were being interviewed?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those
you have now mentioned?
Up to this point of the sequence of events?
Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in
Denton, Tex., sir.
Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the
call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the
occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through
the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that
memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that
were made.
Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. Fine.
Mr Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one,
I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave
until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be
glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience.
Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of
Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last
night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have.
Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time.
If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think
that it would be better if I were to come back.
We will recess at this time until 2 p.m.
(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your
recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first
learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that
moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow
workers.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please?
Mr. OSWALD. If I might----
Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?
Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was
phrased?
Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.
Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen?
Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing
of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and
transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas
division plant manager.
Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co.
And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new
Denton plants.
Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime
that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination
or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were
departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile,
either all or some of you gentlemen.
Whose automobile was that?
Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr.
Burnett Henry's automobile.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. JENNER. And listening to it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.
Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had
already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that
afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.
You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and
the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening
with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina.
Is that correct?
In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I
gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that
you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her
on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her?
Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her.
Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that
her second child had been born to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or
indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the
child Rachel had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited
with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an
interpreter.
Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and
her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer,
or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?
Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not.
Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and
Marina and between her and others in the party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her
with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete
surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of
statement to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was
Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that
you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you
inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for
us?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly
during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she
possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she
did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the
room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the
infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment
about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.
Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may
very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or
conference with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference?
Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a
Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the
Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.
Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted
your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant
Cummings.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas
police force?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings,
Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret
what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according
to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in
connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had
actually been arrested in connection with that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new
Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had
been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer,
and possibly the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or
request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request?
First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that
day or evening?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that
request?
Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He
reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his response?
Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I
stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me
later.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later?
Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean
he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through
the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that
day--of your request to see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way?
Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And you eventually left the police station, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do
you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the
Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas
police office?
Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you
retired for the evening.
Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to
my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.
Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at
night, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or
station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you
were going?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any
with you, with respect to where you might or could go?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I
started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80.
Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning
home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not
have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my
thoughts at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to
arrange my thoughts and my fears."
Do you find that expression on page 7?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was
meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my
thoughts and my fears"?
Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being
disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings
of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time
by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of
my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether
or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time
either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D.
Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to
the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of
Governor Connally, of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile.
Did you actually reach Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do?
Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort
Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving,
except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight
or something of that character?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody
during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did
you go?
Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea
as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I
started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number?
I notice you mentioned a Highway 80.
Is that the same as the turnpike?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas,
the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway.
Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road.
Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you
were attempting to rearrange your thoughts.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where?
Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register
anywhere?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had
anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that
you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody.
Mr. JENNER. Who was that?
Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I
stopped to buy gas.
Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with
anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir.
Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did
you go somewhere?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact,
go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have
a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I
walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down
the street, to the Dallas police station again.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register
and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having
some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up
to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You went across the street to the Dallas City police station?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that
visit?
Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police
station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a
small office.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you,
did they?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and
nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection,
and belief, at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President
Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight,
November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed
to you? What were your thoughts?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular
time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just
shook my head.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your
opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this
morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it.
Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on
your part that you wished to see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz
was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at
that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you
do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you
do that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And retired?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and
the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody
or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of
events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under
my regular name at the Statler Hilton.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it
was so.
On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when
you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave.
Isn't that correct, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the
barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of
your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my
barber a 50-cent tip."
That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in
that conversation, and you merely listened.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there
is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a
50-cent tip."
Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time
was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than
police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding
day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a
reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I
would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not
Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or
been accused of.
Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is
that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction
was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they
hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in
your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary
people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a
fair and impartial trial?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you
were then in the district attorney's office?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade.
Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as
though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie?
Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade.
Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment
with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you
and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too
informative." Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring
to--if I may elaborate on that.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate.
Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side."
Mr. JENNER. Either side of what?
Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and
my side as the other side.
Mr. JENNER. On what issue?
Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal
standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that
had been--that he had been charged with.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether
Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed
him.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about
which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you?
Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the
death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation
with him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your
best. Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. To find out.
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our----
Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview?
Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact
perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been
accused of.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did
you see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the surroundings?
Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police
officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret
Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the
floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a
glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe
signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee
Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he
was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of
the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his
side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side
from the unlocked side.
And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your
brother that you were the one who was coming to see him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to
see you, and I gained the impression from that----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not
believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not
aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to
see.
Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. By what means?
Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass
partition.
Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your
brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and
what did you say to him?
Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement
to me was "How are you?"
My reply was "I am fine."
I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face.
He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I
believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say
anything because the line is apparently tapped."
I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2
or 3 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the
conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Just do your best.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part
of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this
extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from
his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was
approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I
took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family.
Mr. JENNER. His family?
Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And,
also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I
believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"
His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines
will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care
of them satisfactorily.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them
satisfactorily?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were
not mine.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had
Marina seen him the day before?
Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.
Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the
family to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not
aware of it at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a
girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or
otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of
this child?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this
expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence?
Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they
would take care of Marina and the children."
Excuse me--I started too soon.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right.
Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not
necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his
answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got
through to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was
not talking to the Lee I knew"?
Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of
our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously
stated, very mechanical.
Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to
you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had
left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that
you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to
person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?
Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking
about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States
Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.
Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could
remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that
afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps
expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been
placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been
learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he
was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of
the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person
to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging,
nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to
obtain more information from him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary?
Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr.
McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.
Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right.
Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.
On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr.
McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have
received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given
to all of the questions I have put to him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share
it for the Commission.
Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time----
Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything?
Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my
memorandum, on page 12.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as
it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find
out the truth and nothing else."
Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
I have one question, only one.
You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at
the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed
somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk
with him.
Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances
where he appeared to desire publicity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that
I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home,
in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions,
either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to
my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want
to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my
home.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing?
What is your religion?
Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were.
Mr. JENNER. All three of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.
Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further.
Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your
counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank
testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank
you for it.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help.
Mr. JENNER. You have.
Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and
likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald
your statement for the record.
I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir.
Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that
the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the
opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded
along.
Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record,
and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated
December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself,
and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H.
Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed
you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last
paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that
she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and
further agreed that their services will be available at all times to
yourself and that you will use same as required by you.
Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr.
John M. Thorne to represent you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.
Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question?
Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer?
Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has
Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that
he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he
took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in
your diary, but reported in the letters to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might
have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and
the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which
has been introduced into evidence?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her
two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your
knowledge?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.
Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas,
Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June?
Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I
refer to what particular church or denomination.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church.
Mr. McKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on
your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including
cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider
and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the
teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based
on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or
not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at
any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at
this time or since she arrived in this country?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my
observations of her reactions and her conversations with me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached
or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word
"coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before
this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use
conjecture?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Has anyone?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of
this Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the
FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his
position with any government agency or individual.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings
here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them,
or the facts as you know them now?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when
the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of
your recollection in each instance?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake
on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission
to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have
made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your
attention?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.
Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you,
yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his
attention----
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add here--I hope that that will be looked over,
the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any
corrections within a reasonable length of time.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will
do so.
Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could
have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps
actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive.
Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas
until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach
Sunday school and be with my children.
Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it
done.
Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin.
Mr. McKENZIE. I shall.
If you receive from any source any further documentary information or
any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this
Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to
deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the
information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in
preparing its final report?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like
information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise
have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would
you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any
other form of welfare aid?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government
aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the
State of Louisiana.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but
I want to make it absolutely clear.
Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent
of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he
departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government.
Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any
activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the
press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of
November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the
newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no
comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very
early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission
which is now known as the Warren Committee.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement
to the press at any time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald
expressing sympathy for President's family?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection
and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any
statement to that effect to yourself.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To
the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November
25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina
and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of
the United States.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or
not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which
she might have said?
Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a
deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this
Commission?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any
statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you
would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission.
Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath
before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other
than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that,
sir, I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times
of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section,
entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.
Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our
lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do
you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the
Commission, to your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that
during our first session on February 20, 1963.
Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in
the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City
Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at
that time if he had committed the crime?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try
to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill
Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied
'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'"
Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else?
Mr. OSWALD. To that----
Mr. JENNER. In response to you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone
while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny
either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President?
Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark
that you have recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there
with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he
had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated
President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you
believed a denial?
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question.
Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that
he believed the denial.
Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my
recollection.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.
Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper
articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that
you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey
Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that
correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought
to my attention or that I have read.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question?
Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the
circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the
sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County?
Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail.
Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at
all on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald,
with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall
him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the
Commission, subject to recall and being resworn?
Mr. DULLES. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding.
In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr.
Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself
as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the
Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr.
Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington
and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in
shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its
final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known
to the President of the United States to use at his discretion.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question?
Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might
have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which
you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not
participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of
President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first
session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation
with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to
you in the presence of the Commission.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record.
Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Thursday, February 27, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN
The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin;
Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey,
special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles
and Ford and I are present.
Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your
name for the record, please?
Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne
who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you
that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each
time we convene.
On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive
Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and
report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late
President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man
charged with the assassination."
On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137
which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or
any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose,
to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive
evidence.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing
each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin,
to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive
evidence.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing
each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin,
to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive
evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.
The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James
Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina
Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was
charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr.
Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this
Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and
any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent
killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy
of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or
the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a
copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J.
Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry
and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of
evidence.
I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a
letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows:
"Dear Mr. Martin:
"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John
M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear
before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400,
200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving
sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and
your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President
Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.
"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at
that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents
pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge
of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and
the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited
to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to
(1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities
as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's
business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in
connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public
appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal
history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing
of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in
connection with her appearance before this Commission.
"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses
in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the
necessary details will be arranged when you are here.
"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the
rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the
purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence."
I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter?
Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did.
THE CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because
we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must
leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in
my absence he will conduct hearings.
Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have
at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day.
Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MARTIN. I do.
Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't
been introduced to them.
The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American
Bar Association.
Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's
office of the District of Columbia.
Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too.
The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig.
Mr. LEECH. Who is that?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was
asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any
interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in
the paper and so forth.
Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona?
Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of
Texas.
Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And
this is the reporter.
All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.
Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name?
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?
Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin.
Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?
Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there?
Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956.
Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And during what period?
Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964.
Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution?
Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager.
Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become
acquainted with Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24.
Mr. RANKIN. Of what year?
Mr. MARTIN. 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room
where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could
have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't
know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave
them several rooms to accommodate the family.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that?
Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your
establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort
Worth and the isolation of it.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags
Inn, Marina and some of her family?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite
Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there?
Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and
then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county
sheriff about how this would be handled?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service.
Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his
first name.
Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite.
Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several
other Secret Service men.
Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was
primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to
accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make
payment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the
room rate on it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors
or did you make the decision at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service
people before that?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. What day?
Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not
certain as to the exact date.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought
to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any
other way at your Six Flags Inn before that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I
know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they
have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I
don't know of any particular incidents other than----
Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were
in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina
Oswald's rooms?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were
connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the
motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were
rooms next door to it, but not connecting.
Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have
someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. All the time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--well, I remember his first name now, Mike
Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time.
They seemed to change quite frequently.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags
during this early period that you recall?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home
for Thanksgiving?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked
Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner.
They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in
those rooms was pretty cramped.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and
her family in the invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He
came out to the house also.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert,
Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his
name.
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at
that time, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert
if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to
come.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in
your invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by
then.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the
possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags
Inn?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday.
Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement
that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she
left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where
she was going to go.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that?
Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her
that I would be glad to take them into my home.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive
for that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all?
Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and----
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and
said that it would work out all right.
Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions
about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that
character?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. With any media?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer?
Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your
home, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you
made it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home,
how the layout of it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room,
dining room, den and kitchen, two baths.
Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from
the rest of the house?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end
of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along
the hall.
Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the
hall?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that
right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours?
Mr. MARTIN. The next room.
Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used?
Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it.
Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers?
Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom.
Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16.
Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room?
Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13.
Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room?
Mr. MARTIN. About the same size.
Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a
6-year-old girl.
Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all
prior to the time she came to live with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or
the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live
with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to
come in, do you recall the date?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she
came into the house.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am
going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the
hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to
see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of
you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.
(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please.
Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager
first come up.
Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there
about 3 or 4 days, I guess.
Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963?
Mr. MARTIN. 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up?
Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an
attorney for Marina.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?
Mr. MARTIN. In the den.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?
Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in
Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer
for her?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this
attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze?
Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie
work and he would probably know something about the area in which we
were talking.
Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer
did you do anything about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?
Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina
and Lee Gopadze and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter?
Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne
at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed
as her lawyer?
Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would
involve, the kind of work it would be?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned
something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the
conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of
compensation?
Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his
qualifications to act as her attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr.
Thorne as counsel for Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that done?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this
conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the
interpreter and you were present?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr.
Thorne at some time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection.
Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it
with Mr. Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn.
Mr. RANKIN. Your office?
Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present.
Mr. MARTIN. No one.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no
contract to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze
that some counsel be gotten for her?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that
time, did you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes?
Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or
contributions.
Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as
manager?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came
out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need
for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being
the one.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what
compensation you would have?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe
was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for
acting as attorney?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent.
Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you.
Senator COOPER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where
we are in the proceedings?
Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and
Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that
were made.
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract
with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you
know?
Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it.
Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as
that is concerned.
Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at
the coffee shoppe that you described?
Mr. MARTIN. Probably so.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina.
One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually
came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the
coffee shoppe that you referred to?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe after.
Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with
Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about?
Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract.
Were you referring to the Thorne contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard
contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and
contributions, and we deleted those.
Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a
photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just
described with regard to donations and gifts?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds
and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279.
Do you know what was meant by that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn
from.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with
Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't
recall the dates.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion?
Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her.
Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or
Robert.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you
were talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite
reaction but I could tell she understood it.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you
to think that she understood it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10
cents of a dollar.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anything----
Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents.
Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of
this contract on donations and contributions from the public?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10
percent.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a
good contract for her?
Mr. MARTIN. I probably did.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert.
Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made
by Robert, is that right?
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.
Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her,
too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed
that day.
Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think
them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I
am not certain, about that.
Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share?
Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made?
Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December
4--3d or 4th.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a
good idea, a bad idea?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to
get?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent.
Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that
Robert should get a share, too?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something.
Representative FORD. May I ask a question?
Mr. RANKIN. Surely.
Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin,
as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to
do for his 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for
your share?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story.
Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent?
Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to
do for his percentage?
Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on
various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would
take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability.
Mr. LEECH. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about
what Robert would do for his share?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would
probably be plenty for him to do.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at
this time about the percentages?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the
contract, of my contract.
Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that
actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or
anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that?
Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it.
Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her
understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr.
Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume.
Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know.
Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We
left the contracts with her for several days.
Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present.
Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those
contracts at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time.
But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust
Robert's judgment on it.
Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. Just before--I guess the same day she signed it.
Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us
whether you recognize the signatures on that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin.
Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out----
Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne.
Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the
discussion of the contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed.
Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th.
Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were
drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr.
Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr.
Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were
drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I
think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not
sure about the days, and signed the contracts.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her
signature?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does.
Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you
know whose signature that is?
Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's.
Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No.
279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it.
Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the
same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it?
So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at
the same time.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that?
Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time.
Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall
at this time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn
that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and
the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract.
Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were
drawn then?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at
10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you.
(Short recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please
continue with the examination?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your
contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr.
Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object
I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this
information developed when some of the members of the Commission are
here who might not be at other times during your examination.
Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he
thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts
were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the
same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and
9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr.
Thorne's was drawn the 5th.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in
the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as
you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice
President of the United States.
Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any
violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and
she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one
evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?
Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night?
Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed
that it was after work.
Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it?
Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely
Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the
next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that
he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got
dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the
bathroom and kept him there all day, they said.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a
lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a
little far-fetched myself.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something
like that."
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Was this brought up in connection with anything in
particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out?
Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue.
Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any
background to it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I
think she was talking about Oswald----
Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of
comments or was this an unusual circumstance?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident
in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely
unattached to anything that we had been talking about.
Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she
brought it up?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in
November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom
doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the
bathroom?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that
night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he
wasn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this
statement by her to you?
Mr. MARTIN. My wife.
Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had
where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue?
Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen
to but they didn't sound right.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends,
usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some
other country.
Mr. RANKIN. What did she say?
Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public?
Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark
about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see,
she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a
married man there.
Representative FORD. In Leningrad?
Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice
versa.
Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other
because of an association with a married man?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left.
Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you
something that you don't believe?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that
had, we will say, lovers----
Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a
boy friend in Minsk?
Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe
what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back
to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I
believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he
asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he
would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of
difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers
in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are
saying?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't
put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something
that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it.
Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get
away from a married man in Leningrad?
Tell us how that came up.
Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and
I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two
different people or--I would say 10 or 12.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these
boy friends?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe
them. They were just conversation.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention,
did you tell anyone else about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment.
Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and
this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin.
Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related
this to someone else?
Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first
about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical.
Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true.
But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I
supposed it was possible.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to
when Marina told you?
Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission
about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation
with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said?
Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as
publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something
like that.
Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did
you say that?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe so.
Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker
incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything
of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to
the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot
at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our
records.
Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that
Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her?
Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months----
Senator COOPER. I know that.
Mr. MARTIN. To me.
Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about
it.
Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one
evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot
Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed
to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he
would take care of it then.
(Discussion off the record.)
Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify
the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street.
Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living
on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963.
Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about
the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill
him.
Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to
differentiate between shoot and kill?
Mr. MARTIN. At the time?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well?
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or
unemployed at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in
a bathroom for one whole day?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon,
any motive?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And
she shrugged her shoulders.
Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation
with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill
Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when
I asked.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon
incident was after the Walker incident.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any
way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you?
Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have
had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker
incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the
time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she
told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she
would report him to the police.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed
to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it was.
Mr. DULLES. She said that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker.
Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald
with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever
ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which
subsequently followed?
Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it
if I had.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any
Federal authorities?
Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with
you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon
incident with her?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the
truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what?
Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had
gone there or that he was going.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the
Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to
Washington?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of
those interviews?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they
could come back the next day.
Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her
to tell the truth?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI
and Secret Service interviews?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked
specifically about the Mexico incident.
Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret
Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the
Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had
told the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She said no.
Mr. REDLICH. What did you say?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything.
Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr.
Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this
conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not
necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall----
Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening.
Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den.
Representative FORD. Just the three of you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her
or just how did the situation arise?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into
conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general.
Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any
writings she might----
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. --she might produce would include?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either.
Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the
ones you have indicated?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon
incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe
thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne.
Is there anyone else you have told this to?
Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine.
Mr. REDLICH. Who?
Mr. MARTIN. Levine.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is he?
Mr. MARTIN. A writer.
Mr. REDLICH. For what publication.
Mr. MARTIN. He is an author.
Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the
record.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him?
Mr. MARTIN. Back in January.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him?
Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets
the eye, so to speak. He is----
Mr. DULLES. More to what?
Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination.
Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. And he--of course, he is quite familiar with Russian
affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying
to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment
there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut.
Mr. REDLICH. That who was.
Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it
was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass
it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the
release of this information to Mr. Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the
story or the right to write the story?
Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time
concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that
you revealed to him the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to
Robert?
Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in
mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other
day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And----
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your
house?
Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays.
Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays?
Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a
conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or
not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that
she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether
she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with
regard to the revealing of this incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say
anything about it.
Mr. REDLICH. To anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. That is right.
Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the
hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all
during your conversations?
Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.
Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at
the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was
appearing before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her.
Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners?
Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that.
Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations
concerning whether she should mention it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald
whether she had mentioned it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether
she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I think so.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. He said no.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have
mentioned that incident before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound
logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or
the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several
days?
Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last
name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came
out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know
nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there
was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in
the diary.
Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of
manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard
of a diary.
Then--which I told him.
He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more
about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the
Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day
before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I
don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed
the incident to be true?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you
thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the
same day, isn't that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we
couldn't think of how it could happen.
Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to read into the record a story which appears
in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston,
Texas, February 26, Associated Press:
"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow
tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard
M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina
Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this
effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the
assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to
testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the
day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the
slaying."
Mr. MARTIN. Now. I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told
you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of
it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented
before the Warren Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know
about it.
Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned
about it the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter.
Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to
somebody the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off.
Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about
the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. General Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard
about it was when I read in the newspapers.
Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it.
Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina
Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at
General Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought
that General Walker was a Fascist.
Senator COOPER. Right.
Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed.
Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made
giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee
Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any
intentions that he had to kill any other person?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Senator COOPER. You are sure of that?
Mr. MARTIN. Positive.
Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald
might have made about President Kennedy?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that----
Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I
figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether
they were or not.
Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission
to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President
Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before
and tell us anything----
Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely
tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation
between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the
President.
Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?
Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months.
Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that
period of time.
Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and
there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.
Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she
was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary
housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom
she married?
Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite
right. I mean she doesn't fit.
Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.
Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way?
Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the
Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an
American woman, and she was not very upset at all.
Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. About her husband.
Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death?
Representative BOGGS. Well now----
Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.
Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that
because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions
and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she
appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?
Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she
treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I
don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and
throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and
I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public,
and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the
Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11
o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the
evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.
Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or
laziness.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at
all.
Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable
emotions?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any
emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there,
she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie
Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.
Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that
would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an
intelligence system?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since.
Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole
thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald
wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of
what might happen, might or might not happen.
The Fords also expressed the same opinion.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion?
Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford
expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction
might be and he didn't know what to think.
We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and
anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis
at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at
all.
But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned
upside down.
But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert
insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings
to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she
came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and
stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with
us.
Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the
Fords or how long after she moved?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with
Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over
to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and----
Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight,
the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her
appearance before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. Right.
Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house,
and wanted to move back in.
Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there?
Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say?
Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be
made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and
Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as
her manager or attempting to discharge me.
Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort
of thing.
This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?
Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned
thing.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when
Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might
be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to
wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy.
Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?
Mr. MARTIN. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything,
I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows
a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same
thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time.
Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for,
well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to
her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina
to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have
anything to do with her.
Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina given you a reason for that?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she doesn't like her.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not
to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did?
Mr. MARTIN. I knew that he did.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know the reason for that?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He said he just didn't like her.
Mr. DULLES. He gave no reasons?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as
to why she didn't like the Paines?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought.
Mr. REDLICH. You said that----
Mr. MARTIN. She has expressed that.
Mr. REDLICH. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is
a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but
I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been
planned.
We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story
rights.
Representative BOGGS. How much?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end
result, but just on advances, it is $132,000.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that
something----
Mr. MARTIN. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these
are the contracts that have been negotiated.
Mr. REDLICH. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is for your information.
Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of this document?
Mr. MARTIN. It is a handwritten----
Mr. DULLES. By whom?
Mr. MARTIN. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news
media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie
rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, these are just the advances.
Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance----
Mr. REDLICH. Could I interrupt and get this identified?
Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.
Mr. REDLICH. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into
evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original.
Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.
Mr. DULLES. Would you describe this?
Mr. REDLICH. This document lists various publications, media of
communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject
of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with
these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is
that correct, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the
Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further
question of this witness.
Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth,
but I want you to be specific--anything that comes to your mind as to
whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about.
Mr. LEECH. Can you give us about two minutes in that room?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Back on the record.
Mr. DULLES. Just one minute. This should go in the record.
Representative BOGGS. Who is this individual?
Mr. MARTIN. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his
name. It began with an "H".
Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will
continue with the examination.
Mr. MARTIN. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler
Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by
one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their
Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance
telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there
was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that
she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned
to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in
history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply
said, "Proceed as planned."
Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if
anything went wrong he knew what to do.
Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type
or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth,
and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a
violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call,
and that they finally did report it to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this
story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was
the telephone operator who overheard the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel?
Mr. MARTIN. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or
whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta.
Representative BOGGS. Did this person have the credit card number and
so forth?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The person that I was talking to?
Representative BOGGS. Did the telephone operator have it?
Mr. MARTIN. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has
the records.
Representative BOGGS. Do you have any other information that would
indicate that----
Mr. MARTIN. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as
far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned.
She is too cold.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. About a week ago.
Mr. REDLICH. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs
point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that
all this was preplanned. Is there anything specific in anything that
she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe
that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission,
concerning her knowledge about the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't
volunteer anything. She only answered questions.
Representative FORD. This was after the return from the Commission
hearing?
Mr. MARTIN. No, this was sometime ago. That was before----
Representative FORD. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And it was----
Mr. DULLES. Is that all you had on this particular point?
Representative BOGGS. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like
the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular.
Mr. DULLES. But her remark was made before her hearing before this
Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And did not relate then to that hearing.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that
there was to reveal before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. There again I didn't question her about anything that
she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for
one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine,
and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning
her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell us how you found out about the General
Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Read it from the newspapers.
Mr. REDLICH. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about
it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and I
also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things
alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had
written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home
at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset
with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the
bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a
time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case
he was gone.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina tell you all about this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. In English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this
type of story?
Mr. MARTIN. She learned very rapidly.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall approximately when that was?
Mr. MARTIN. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper.
Representative FORD. Did she know of her own knowledge about General
Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General
Walker?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. She only told what Lee told her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee told her he was a Fascist.
Mr. DULLES. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to
you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker
incident, after he told her about the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a
cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she
would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police
also.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had
given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI
concerning the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about
it.
Mr. REDLICH. And you assumed she had volunteered this information?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with
as to how it got out.
Mr. REDLICH. Why were you concerned?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, if she had told it to the FRI and the FBI only then
how did it get in the newspapers?
Mr. REDLICH. What was the--you say you were concerned that certain
aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your
concern?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the
newspapers?
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper
reporters at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret
Service?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Mr. Heitman.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Heitman tell you?
Mr. MARTIN. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it
must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out.
Mr. REDLICH. By Washington he meant the Washington office?
Mr. MARTIN. Of the FBI, the Justice Department.
Mr. REDLICH. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information
could come from?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this
information prior to that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as
possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank
about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret
out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea
about.
Mr. REDLICH. At that time, however, you were acting as her business
representative.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of
any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She has never written anything other than the
manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never
pre-prepared anything.
Mr. DULLES. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge,
who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example?
Mr. MARTIN. The only one would be Levine.
Mr. DULLES. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a
Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think
quite a bit.
Mr. DULLES. Marina told Isaac Don Levine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. That Marina's husband?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite.
Mr. DULLES. He was a Trotskyite.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, because this, for instance----
Mr. REDLICH. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are
talking about?
Mr. Chairman, I offer----
Mr. DULLES. Identify it.
Mr. REDLICH. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business
representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this
Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is
considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of
Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr.
Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and
ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the
Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be
admitted.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will
be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the
original will be returned to the witness.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case
because this was prepared for the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. You can have the original.
Mr. DULLES. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a
photostat for your records.
Mr. MARTIN. I have it right up here.
Mr. DULLES. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short
and it might make the record more intelligible.
Mr. REDLICH. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I
suggest that the witness read it?
Mr. DULLES. Right.
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World
Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500
per--plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed
February 11.
Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with
rifle and pistol.
Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy
only, with a 70-30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70
percent to Marina.
Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same
arrangements as above.
Mr. REDLICH. Finish the documents.
Mr. MARTIN. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights.
London Daily Mirror $2,200 guarantee on 50-50 reciprocal for British
Commonwealth rights on rifle photo.
Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media
thereby leaving themselves liable.
This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article.
Total is $132,350.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that
you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been
received and how much is----
Mr. MARTIN. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia
Films they have the money.
Mr. DULLES. Who is they?
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until
this is settled.
Mr. REDLICH. Until what is settled?
Mr. MARTIN. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald
and myself.
Mr. REDLICH. Concerning your representation of her?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it
at the present time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in
an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which
is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert
wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make
any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course,
I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting.
Mr. REDLICH. At this time, rather than go into the details of these
business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed
earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a
patsy.
Would you care to explain that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have put in approximately 2-1/2 months of good,
hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news
media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story.
Mr. REDLICH. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything.
Mr. MARTIN. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to
properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep
going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of
my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any
contracts for her in these fields.
William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and
is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's
name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words,
just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly
for it not to have been planned.
Mr. REDLICH. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you
suspect?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts
to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the
personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have
been the buffers for the 2-1/2 months prior to that.
The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at
all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel
perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing
all the work that we had put into it.
This was not a decision that was made in two days.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions
with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get
you off this job?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have letters from--one from Marina and one from
McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement.
Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have
performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of
course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be
more on royalties after that.
Mr. DULLES. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina
sign them?
Mr. MARTIN. I did.
Mr. DULLES. These agreements with the news media?
Mr. MARTIN. I did.
Mr. DULLES. You signed them?
Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You
will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your
discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of
my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters,
persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all
ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance
by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and
directed by me."
Mr. DULLES. I think we have a copy of this, do we not?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes. You are reading from----
Mr. MARTIN. My contract.
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between
James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was
introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin,
there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission
Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a
letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging
of your services.
Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present
time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because I
would like to ask you questions concerning that?
Mr. LEECH. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the
date. I think we have the originals, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February
18.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne.
Mr. REDLICH. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr.
John Thorne.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; we have the originals.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with
the termination of Mr. Martin's services?
Mr. MARTIN. One from Marina Oswald.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you
were building a public image of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, in this type of thing----
Mr. REDLICH. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through----
Mr. MARTIN. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an
image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did
actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received
some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the
image is not true?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very
small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my
knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in
Russian.
This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a
religious person.
She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't
conform to that image.
Mr. REDLICH. In what way, how?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she is lazy, for one thing.
Mr. REDLICH. Lazy in what respect?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The
children bother her. I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she
left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby
there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then
Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't
seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was
willing to leave the baby again.
Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything else?
Mr. MARTIN. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these
contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of--she takes it
for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off.
Mr. REDLICH. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you?
Mr. MARTIN. I have kept her informed all along on it.
Mr. REDLICH. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between
the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which
she will receive?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you be more specific about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I
haven't written but I have directed.
Mr. REDLICH. Directed?
Mr. MARTIN. By giving them information.
Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature----
Mr. MARTIN. To build it up.
Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature of these articles?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't
have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas.
It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is
shaded in truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have the article with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to
midnight mass.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article
which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it
appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule",
by Bill Burrus.
Mr. MARTIN. That was the Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. REDLICH. Since we would like to question the witness about this,
I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be
introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted with no objection.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you
tell us in what respects this article is not true?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it
embellishes the truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you be specific in terms of references to the
particular article?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to
church?
Mr. DULLES. Did she go to church?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. It is my partner's church.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret
quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas
carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't
believe I told that; that was just added in there.
"Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched
television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even
like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English.
Mr. DULLES. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill
Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of
anything else to do.
Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying
the English language.
Mr. DULLES. You say she has not been studying the English language?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in
her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living
with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn
English in order to converse.
Mr. DULLES. Is there anything else in this particular article that you
would either regard as unslanted or untrue?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give us other examples where----
Mr. MARTIN. There is the first one.
Mr. DULLES. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to
introduce it in evidence.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. This will go with it.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article
appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963,
the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't
help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted, if there is no objection.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask
you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in
this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted?
Mr. MARTIN. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters
reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion
by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did
actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only
letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. What was her reaction to those letters?
Mr. MARTIN. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it
went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether----
Mr. DULLES. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response
to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have
reached?
Mr. MARTIN. That she specifically said?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there
was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the
table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did,
you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general
feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all
these people are doing for her or trying to do for her.
Mr. REDLICH. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which
would indicate this lack of compassion?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending
me that money".
Mr. REDLICH. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the
American people are crazy for sending this money?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she elaborate on it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you reply to that?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say
anything.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she make any other comments of that nature?
Mr. MARTIN. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can
remember specifically.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit
No. 327?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout.
She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She
was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as
religion is concerned.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in
that church to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June
baptized without her husband's knowledge.
Mr. REDLICH. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that
information?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This
article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it
from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read
this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being
baptized.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she read that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. In English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to read this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. It took her a while to read it.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention----
Mr. MARTIN. This is December 15.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to
the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December
15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you,
Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and
understand it?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word
of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite
amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she
can't, but she can read printing or typing.
Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers
and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand
all the words and talk about her."
She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought
her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did this information appearing in this story come
from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were
not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you?
Mr. MARTIN. On one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been
in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know
about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else.
Mr. DULLES. Before or afterward?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said before. Before the baptism.
"She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals
favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own
meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half
months.
Mr. REDLICH. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact
she cooked her own meals?
Mr. MARTIN. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in
reading this comment?
Mr. MARTIN. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like
macaroni, it is noodles.
Mr. REDLICH. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this
information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not
quite true?
Mr. MARTIN. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used
and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now
in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does
she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate
on it.
This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m.
every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. "She asked Secret
Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any
incident where she did.
Mr. REDLICH. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
"As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles
with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of
President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the
slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not
true.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were
there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was
her reaction?
Mr. MARTIN. No real reaction at all. Just there on television.
Mr. DULLES. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a
picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I
don't know that we finished that.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie",
and that was it. There wasn't--kind of shook her head. That is in this
article, too, and that is true.
Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and
she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I
don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed
that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was--anyone intended to harm
her.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the
Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said
she was just--what was it--just joking. She used a funny sounding word
for joking. I don't remember what it was.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any further comments with regard to this
particular exhibit?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m.,
this afternoon.
Would you report with your counsel at that time?
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Transcriber's Notes:
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant
preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be
due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of
conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be
periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at
the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at
the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so
faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and
corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be
available at LibraryBlog.
Pages ix-xi: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been omitted from
this eBook.
Page 20: "Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just" probably
should have a period after "that".
Page 20: "Mr. Rankin. Did our husband" probably should be "your".
Page 139: "No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?"
probably should end with a period instead of a question mark.
Page 176: Spurious quotation mark removed before "The money that came
into my home that"
Page 245: Missing closing quotation mark for: 'I said "No, Reverend
Saunders,'
Page 297: "And you worked at the A. & P. during this period?" changed
to "A&P" for consistency with other occurrences of that abbreviation.
Page 344: "copy for the original. I will undertake" The period probably
should be a comma.
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