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Title: Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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    INVESTIGATION OF
    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President's Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ III


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O'BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.


Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III:
Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife;
Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene;
Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom
Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker,
a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination
scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and
Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the
investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building
immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who
apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham,
William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who
were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James
Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland
Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons
evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt
Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert
with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the
Illinois Department of Public Safety.



Contents

                                              Page
    Preface                                      v

    Testimony of--
      Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed)                  1
      Howard Leslie Brennan          140, 184, 211
      Bonnie Ray Williams                      161
      Harold Norman                            186
      James Jarman, Jr                         198
      Roy Sansom Truly                         212
      Marrion L. Baker                         242
      Mrs. Robert A. Reid                      270
      Luke Mooney                              281
      Eugene Boone                             291
      M. N. McDonald                           295
      Helen Markham                       305, 340
      William W. Scoggins                      322
      Barbara Jeanette Davis                   342
      Ted Callaway                             351
      Charles James Carrico                    357
      Malcolm Perry                            366
      Robert A. Frazier                        390
      Ronald Simmons                           441
      Cortlandt Cunningham                     451
      Joseph D. Nicol                          496


COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

    Exhibit No.:    Page
      128             31
      425             95
      426              2
      429             23
      430             55
      431             55
      432             55
      433             55
      434             55
      435             55
      436             55
      437             55
      438             55
      439             55
      440             55
      441             55
      442             55
      443             55
      444             55
      445             55
      446             55
      447             55
      448             55
      449             75
      450             55
      451             95
      452             55
      453             95
      454             95
      455             95
      456             95
      459-1          134
      460            132
      477            147
      478            147
      479            147
      480            157
      481            157
      482            157
      483            183
      484            183
      485            183
      486            183
      487            183
      488            183
      489            183
      490            183
      491            183
      492            183
      493            194
      494            217
      495            217
      496            217
      497            236
      498            236
      499            236
      500            236
      501            236
      502            236
      503            236
      504            236
      505            236
      506            236
      507            280
      508            290
      509            290
      510            290
      511            290
      512            290
      513            290
      514            290
      515            290
      516            294
      517            294
      518            302
      519            302
      520            304
      521            314
      522            314
      523            314
      524            314
      525            317
      526            317
      527            321
      528            324
      529            339
      530            339
      531            339
      532            339
      534            339
      535            341
      536            341
      537            357
      538            357
      539            357
      540            392
      541            394
      542            397
      543            399
      544            399
      545            399
      546            401
      547            401
      548            403
      549            403
      550            404
      551            404
      552            404
      553            404
      554            404
      555            405
      556            408
      557            415
      558            415
      559            419
      560            420
      561            423
      562            424
      563            425
      564            427
      565            427
      566            430
      567            432
      568            432
      569            435
      570            436
      572            437
      573            439
      574            441
      575            441
      576            444
      577            444
      578            444
      579            445
      580            445
      581            445
      582            445
      583            445
      584            445
      585            450
      586            450
      587            453
      588            453
      589            454
      590            454
      591            454
      592            459
      593            462
      594            465
      595            466
      596            467
      597            467
      598            467
      599            467
      600            467
      601            467
      602            474
      603            474
      604            474
      605            474
      606            488
      607            489
      608            499
      609            500
      610            500
      611            501
      612            502
      613            505
      614            506
      615            506
      616            507
      617            507
      618            507
      619            508
      620            508
      621            508
      622            508
      623            508
      624            509
      625            512



Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under
affirmation.

Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license
application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the
document again?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making
a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block
printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address
book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book
which you have before you----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were
addressing yourself was what?

Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in
your address book with what?

Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?

Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses
a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in
my phone book, most of it being block upper case.

Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents
is----

Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.

Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with
particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is
misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that
sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very
bad misspellings.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas
State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license,"
on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee";
over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."

The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and
occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving,
Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became
acquainted with them?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone
else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday,
October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation"
appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes,
gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown;
height, 5 foot 9 inches.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.

Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of
questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they
are from 1 to 12, as follows:

"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a
Texas license?"

Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.

"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?

"Have you ever held a license in any other State?

"Have you ever been denied a license?

"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked,
or canceled?

"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to
stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent
homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"

All answered in the negative.

"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?

"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?

"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular
control?

"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or
narcotic drugs?

"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"

And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental
illness?"

The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing
appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals
with the record of his examination.

I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer
this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found
among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure
hearsay.

Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?

Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.

The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the
document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to
qualify it.

Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?

Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document
in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No.
112, vol. I, p. 113.]

Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification
questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit
427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand
corner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating
to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?

Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September,
when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have
the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he
equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year
by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it
was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose----

Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to
Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his----

Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary----

Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you take that document with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?

Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it
to him.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of
Marina Oswald's second child.

Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina,
if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could
receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no
cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.

Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?

Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered
some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you
vacationed in the summer of 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that
correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.

Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where
you visited, without telling us what you did.

Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of
Massachusetts.

Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. With your children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?

Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?

Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all.

Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one
night.

Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went
on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs,
until the early part of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?

Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me
if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.

Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.

Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?

Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?

Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in
connection with----

Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.

Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?

Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.

Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office?

Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother
during that summer period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island,
and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in
Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there
at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in
Baltimore.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?

Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?

Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.

Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?

Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia
area, while I was at Paoli.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the
sense I would mean friends?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?

Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And
then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond,
Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?

Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my
home in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with
Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your
going along, had you?

Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New
Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?

Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house
for the birth of the baby.

Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return
or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming
to be with you for the birth of the child?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining
you on a semipermanent basis?

Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am
anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you
paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association
with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You did?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.

Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject,
but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this
morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.

Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the
morning or afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.

Mr. JENNER. Who was home?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.

Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is
what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2
nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At
one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came
and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This
was after I had made a telephone call to her.

Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?

Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.

Mr. JENNER. Grown?

Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been
studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role
that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some
slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip
to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did,
at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed
in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better
impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had
seen him, which was in May.

I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was
concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could
go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the
possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through
Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and
pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.

I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his
being interested in having it that way.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3
days?

Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.

Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion
between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee
on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with
you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child
in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was
there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and
would be seeking a position?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English.
I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.

Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted
himself to speak with you in English?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application
was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't
know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was
arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And
he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"

"Yes, she knew it."

Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.

Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of
what he had done as I ever got from him.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.

I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give
your reaction.

Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.

Mr. JENNER. That was the end?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's
activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.

The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the
name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the
assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he
say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba
literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused
some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.

Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned
that as a possible----

Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?

Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost
his job before this happened.

Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba
incident?

Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance
where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in
which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and
his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United
States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.

Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your
presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they
weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This
is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you
raised it, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular
conversation, have you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations
between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time
was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had
been when I first was in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina
and Lee when you were there in the spring?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in
New Orleans. You found the situation different?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring
Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?

Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day.
It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?

Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been
cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put
away. And I believe he did some packing.

Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with
Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with
the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of
the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him
at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by
preference to having me handle it.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction.
Did he seem eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.

Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and
we left Tuesday morning.

Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you
and Marina were on tour?

Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only
arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open
on Sunday?

Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.

Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite
eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the
ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.

Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the
gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your
part to have a question in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the
first I saw him taking that much interest.

Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would
you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do
during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all
three of you.

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the
children, having all small children, all of us having small children.

Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you
be good enough to tell us?

Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend.
He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two
girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for
girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen
him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best
of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I
loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was
about. But I might if I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Was it an English book?

Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of
Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember.
It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something
like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would
have read that, anyway.

Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you
that summer? Ten Days----

Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for
sure whether I have that one.

Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?

Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection
of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they
included history and literature and English.

Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian
at Saint Marks School in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of
things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from
many points of view regarding Soviet life.

Representative FORD. I interrupted you.

Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during
those 2 days and 3 nights.

Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and
stayed while they were done and went back.

Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina
and I went.

Mr. JENNER. He remained home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer,
with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or
Monday.

No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether,
because Sunday was the day before we left.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.

Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in
college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly
overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.

Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently
and had slides that she had taken that summer.

Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no
command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to
contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew
Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek
out someone who could talk to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as
far as you knew?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in
the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of
Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by
then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat
on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and
other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was
another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.

We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it
seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and
we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther
than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't
going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only
my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was
open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.

Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and
visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one
and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering
something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to
cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect
that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it
was at least a gesture.

Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.

Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any
small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her
in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to
New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your
acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially
or anything at all to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that
when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get
an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards
renting a furnished apartment for his family.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in
fact ever give you any money?

Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give
Marina.

Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other
occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time
close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some
shoes.

Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?

Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not
certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday
afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.

Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the
process of packing of the car?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee
Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any
sympathy for him at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he
might not be seeing Marina any more?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in
Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he
mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the
investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the
presence of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the
subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that
correct?

Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for
work, or possibly to Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or
friends in either of those towns?

Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in
Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he
said or which might have been said in your presence that after you
girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look----

Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we
left.

Mr. JENNER. Promptly?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to
Houston, or what was the other town?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was
there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any
respect?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything
on the subject of Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this
interim period?

Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I
think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee
rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about
any particular time, he would see Marina again.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then
again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly
see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here.
As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that
indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember
just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to,
shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about
the husband, where is the husband?

Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for
work or something? What shall I say about you?

Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I
asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?

He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."

And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear
or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might
make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until
Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you
and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex.,
or to Philadelphia to look for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or
driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified,
the supposed friend?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?

Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated
for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this
was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the
Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a
contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something
unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about
it. But this thought crossed my mind.

Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards
trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job
hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return
home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he
would be home before noontime.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh?

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in
New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was
job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was
operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw
him.

Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr.
Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs.
Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were
limited, were they not?

Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.

Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period
when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that
Marina was with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that
they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your
really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr.
Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of
time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights
in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home
substantially all of that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until
he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what
was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was not?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October
4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday,
to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it
from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you
use a car.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about
his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public
transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the
problems in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical
problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far
was it from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going
to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10
minute car ride.

Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus
terminal to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Walking?

Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.

Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have
to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the
12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.

Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice
of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been
in Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first
one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one
of the papers.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that
knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other
things that had happened.

Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please.

Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at
our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was
out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could
wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press,
which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he
convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was
doing.

So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin,
and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It
wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I
did see that it was a foreign coin.

Mr. JENNER. It was a what?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It
was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember
it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after
the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left
in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and
looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and
found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso,
the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely.
Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.

My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was
rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this
book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the
price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the
back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation,
"Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there
in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it,
which I took to be associated with this notation.

Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?

Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture
postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this
dictionary, and these I gave to the----

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime
prior to this occasion that you have now described?

Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed
to be that, seen it, of course.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident.

Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a
letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will
obtain the rough draft here among my notes.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday.
He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you
are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests
your attention to that particular date?

Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough
draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And
the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also
on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the
living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed,
so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her
high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved
something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.

Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity?

Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or
to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had
peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page
in it, but I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious?

Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a
scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of
my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.

Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this,
a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence
arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then
proceeded----

Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes
of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document
in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No.
385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is
an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined
that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document
you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what
was said; yes.

Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is
literal.

Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in
English.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you
have the transcript of it before you?

Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other
words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now
interested in my activities."

Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing
this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to
have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I
had some cause to look at it.

Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is
short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it
aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?

Mr. McCLOY. Without objection.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have
it there.

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out----

Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too.

Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs:

"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade
Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after
he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It
was that same day.

Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was
closed, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the
letter on the morning of November 10.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk
the previous evening.

"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered
useless--)"--because--it is crossed out.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there
are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in
parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words
"crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.

Proceed, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican
visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.

"(I had a--crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an
extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.

"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all
ready ha--crossed out).

"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive
organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans,
La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am--crossed out) no
longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state.

"(November the November--crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in
Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that
if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again
take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could
'remain in the U.S. under FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse
to return to the--crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course
I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.

"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in
Mexico City but--crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico
City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I
been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed
out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have
been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist
me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the
stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been
replaced by another."

Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your
reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on
Sunday morning, the 10th of November.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought
were untrue.

Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that
alarmed you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. What were they?

Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And
decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming
again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among
your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it,
while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way,
but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday
on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in
the room?

Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice
or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it
was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it
was untrue that the FBI came----

Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said----

Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice.

Mr. JENNER. November 1 and----

Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it
whatever.

Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to
be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being
put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if
she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being
told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and
false both.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is
concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of
your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or
anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not.

Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import.

Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of
the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that
period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or
have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States
was seeking to induce her to defect?

Mrs. PAINE. To the United States?

Mr. JENNER. To the United States.

Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely
different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I
read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.

Mr. JENNER. Is who?

Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is
a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that
the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present,
"they visited I and my wife."

Mr. JENNER. Was he present?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife
protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.

Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November
1. Was Marina present then?

Mrs. PAINE. She was present.

Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November
5?

Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short
visit was concluded.

Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one?

Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply
asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him
since.

Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?

Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think
this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for
confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the
weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes
in Germany at the time.

He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not
to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence
to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by
hearsay or public accusation.

He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say
the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if
I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived?
No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.

Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.

And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and
the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the
employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so
far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in
talking to Lee.

I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods
and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter,
and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the
reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false
name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an
assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.

Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that
he used an assumed name, was there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this----

Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was
a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it
should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He
addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make
an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that
impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make
an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my
mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I
left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and
let them conclude or add it to what they knew.

I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two
things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.

One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I
had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI
agent who was asking the address of where he lived.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.

Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that
followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for
the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your
copy of the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk.
I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that
Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. He had left?

Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.

Mr. JENNER. He had not left?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to
come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the
letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all
the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.

Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or
the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't
go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story,
if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him
saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say,
"What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I
didn't know what to do.

Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to
the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I
find on my desk."

Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.

Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I
sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real
upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."

He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility
of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was
keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and
it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and
we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I
excused myself and went to bed.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter
and the original?

Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of
November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I
said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.

Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the
original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy
with respect to the FBI.

Mrs. PAINE. Prior.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative
document?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts
about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this
was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.

I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had
no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no
connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so
much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it.
Supposing that I had?

Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated
during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you
have disclosed this document to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at
all comfortable in having even.

Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?

Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that
Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time
to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now
certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in
seeing him.

Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?

Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.

Representative FORD. Handwritten?

Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I
only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave
him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name
and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I
gave this to Lee the weekend he came.

Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that
would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.

Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what
day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the
following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on
the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the
recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the
downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note.
And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.

Mr. JENNER. Irritating?

Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought.
This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and
his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was
specifically said to him later.

Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?

Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit
my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well
have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to
say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.

He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there,
and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest
to them for years to come.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my
feeling.

I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited,
do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing
pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he
had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would
too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my
interpretation.

Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said,
however, on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few
weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing,
thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part.
But it appears to have been another lie.

Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to
cover that as a separate subject.

Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like
to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being
parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the
fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee
Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to
Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with
the various materials?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.

Mr. JENNER. Who did that?

Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night
on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too,
and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about
where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the
binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.

Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of
luggage placed in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I
could move, he put those in.

Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.

Mr. JENNER. With what?

Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.

Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which
might have led you to believe----

Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.

Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including
quite a small one, and the little radio.

Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I
don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is
important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not
certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he
first arrived.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels
because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them
on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you
described yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even
recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.

Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?

Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece
of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at
4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the
moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described
yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with
you to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a
blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your
clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't
as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was
leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.

Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or
character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of
that nature.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when
your station wagon was unpacked?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.

Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station
wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the
two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you
reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package----

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.

Mr. JENNER. Not until later.

Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall
it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are
referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it
to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am
exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket
familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first
saw it.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my
garage sometime in late October.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before
that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never
seen this binding until last night.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what
appears to be some black binding?

Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.

Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.

Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had
always been on it, is that what you mean to say?

Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.

Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the
previous occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it
closely.

Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Didn't move it?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.

Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first
saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had
returned to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in
your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine
Street when you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.

Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. That is true.

Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the
blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in
the form of a package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it
is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. About like so.

Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of
the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.

Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.

Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.

Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the
occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there
were parallel strings around it.

Mr. JENNER. Tied?

Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.

Mr. JENNER. How many were there?

Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well
spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.

Mrs. PAINE. Is four.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.

Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the
blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something
inside the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have
a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.

Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any
discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.

Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice
that package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be
at all certain about when I first noticed it.

Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a
different position or places in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?

Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.

Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on
the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work
bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.

Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat
on the floor or was it upended?

Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead
you to step on it or feel it in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald
things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine
tools.

Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of
yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.

Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.

Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is
reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage
interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now
exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.

Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and
in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you
place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on
floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.

Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was
talking about, right here.

Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper
middle section of the photograph.

Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door
or----

Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under
this box here.

Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this
bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.

Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is
pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being
about the upper middle. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.

Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to
the interior than its first location.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the
document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified
as Commission Exhibit 429.

Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.

(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded
blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle
being dismantled.

May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the
package from end to end, and it does not----

Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?

Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.

Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that----

Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped
package that you saw on your garage floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.

Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was
of the length?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.

Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when
you stepped on the package----

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.

Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact
with it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in
it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it
was tied pull it in or distort the shape?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.

Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.

Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the
contents of the package firm, is that your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in
connection with the moving of the package?

Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.

Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved
the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer
to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he
was----

Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the
assassination he had not complained about its being there or any
difficulty in moving it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he
moved it.

Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various
woodworking pieces of equipment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in
the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat
filled up.

Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back
he didn't work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws.
Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to
think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.

Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you
never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move
it in any way?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.

Mr. JENNER. There were only two?

Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Only two.

Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the
second one.

Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.

Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.

Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is
an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is
the first location point at which you saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph
there is a double X.

Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described
is more accurate than the XX.

Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on
it.

Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.

Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package,
on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look
at it?

Mr. McCLOY. You may.

We are back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the
floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The
rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which
operates the rifle which forced it up higher.

Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the
other had been.

Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is
Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have
ever seen it?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the
police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the
strap.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of
November in the police station that it had a strap?

Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall
it. I was interested in the sight.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of
November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in
the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or
a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit
139?

Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that
nature.

Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?

Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.

Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy
wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap
packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the
wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly
isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway,
couldn't it, possibly?

Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.

Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.

Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?

Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my
recollection has there ever been.

Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your
home?

Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.

Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?

Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching
to this wrapping?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that
wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the
string that you normally used in your home for packages?

Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.

Representative FORD. Color was the same?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of
the rolls I have is that.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the
lighter weight type and not----

Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.

Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the
packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags,
they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at
any time thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already
referred to.

Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?

Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.

Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.

Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No word.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period
about where Lee was or might be?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact
that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina
discuss during that 10-day period?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was
after; general conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?

Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she
would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in
Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and
their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood
come and visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and
which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless----

Mr. JENNER. And interested people?

Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly
Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was
how many doors down or across the street?

Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home.
She is the young German woman to whom I referred.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of
Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no
word had been heard from Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during
that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that
10 days period?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't
heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2
weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I
thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.

Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the
day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not
even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a
telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.

Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard,
there was no letter?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.

Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d,
because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia,
your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia
reference was very slight.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and
Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston
looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at
all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.

All right.

You heard from him on the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time
of day and how it came about?

Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it
was Lee's.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from
you, where have you been?"

Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak
to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then
asked. I heard her say to him----

Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did you hear her say?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick
you up."

Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Throughout?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or
Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine,
"Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood,
she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."

Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.

Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".

To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her
little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.

Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you
heard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"

Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward.
She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to
pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.

Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never
asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an
imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. JENNER. That morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then
she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and
had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you
call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon
getting to town?"

Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course,
during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he
come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.

Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.

So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when----

Mr. JENNER. You left the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.

Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything
that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to
you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work
in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the
weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to
Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she
reported it to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having
made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he
hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.

What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get
there? Was there any discussion of that?

Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to----

Mr. JENNER. He was coming?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.

Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?

Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to
Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I
thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it
would be at least supper time before he got there.

Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the
time you returned?

Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a
little less.

Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?

Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we
practiced.

Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means
he had come from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride
with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.

Mr. JENNER. To your door?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife
and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought
him directly to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?

Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon,
wasn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?

Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that
10-day interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?

Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he
hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about
Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been
in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or
22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in
Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of
November in which he stated that he had been?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may
have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to
my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso,
this would have been the only occasion that she knew.

Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there
was no conversation on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning----

The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about
giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or
for a blood bank?

Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in
under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a
time.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in
fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your
home?

Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.

I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or
not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever
seen that before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey
Oswald on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but,
of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have
job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and
I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station,
one of these.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this
document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave
Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the
identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map
of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the
kind I had in mind.

Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been
changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this
is the document?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be
something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed
thereon or Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a
marking that I had made.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular
map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and
you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.

All right, now tell us about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. The map?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular
places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.

Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I
said, yes, I do, you may have it.

Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his
room or his and Marina's room and place it there?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when
this conversation occurred and took it with him.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as
yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence,
therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore
identified by that exhibit number.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No.
128 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job
hunting?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out
already to go in our car to the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. She did not?

Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went
with me, I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?

Mrs. PAINE. June.

Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from
your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas
before he left?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather
expensive. He was going to look for a room.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.

Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove
him all the way into Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. At any time?

Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver
training test.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my
memory. I can't think of any other.

Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus
terminal in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board
the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to
the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area,
because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I
may know why I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I
was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.

Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas
School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he
applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is
not quite as clear.

I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I
recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and
something else, which was near the employment office.

Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to
get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me
downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip
just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along
and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner
and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed
either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the
12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.

Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him
to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he
might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to
ask if he could come out for the weekend.

Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?

Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to
come?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?

Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of
November.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into
Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?

Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.

Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you
picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of
October, what did he have----

Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.

Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after----

Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston
looking for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

It is that occasion that I have in mind.

What did he have with him in the way of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I
remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with
him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts,
things that are hung on hangers.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip----

Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the
afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper
bag on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.

Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of
his returning to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing
there.

That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of
luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that
afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any
recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him
when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But
that is the best I have.

Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?

Mrs PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any
discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and
her understanding of them?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. None at all.

What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject
matter with respect to his weekend visits?

Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come
out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got
into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as
best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to
say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the----

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between
you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or
the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you
with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for
Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee
at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs.
Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the
last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and
that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in
its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for
work.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't
found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four
young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that
her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person
at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would
call----

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation
going on.

Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?

Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came
home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if
indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I
did telephone----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any
discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle
or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be
made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a
suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now
testifying to?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you
please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told
I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone
was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said----

Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife
was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already
had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was
very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there
a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know
whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in
person.

Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.

Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book
Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Only the one?

Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?

Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what
did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.

Mr. JENNER. In the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me
to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible
job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the
School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I
go on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The next day----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was
concerned.

Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the
conversation in the Roberts' home.

Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School
Depository mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to
possible places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other
places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be
unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would
be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was
lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes
your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly
know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell
Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.

Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the
possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of
getting there.

Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?

Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment
to operate it?

Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson
on the 13th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of
the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to
him, this is the 14th?

Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone
number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an
entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not?
Would you turn to that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.

Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository
on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment
there.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this
possibility?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas
School Book Depository on that date?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the
Texas School Depository Building where----

Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.

Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse.
Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one
of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas
School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building
that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book
Depository.

I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings
and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the
telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I
didn't.

The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard
on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had
been fired from such a building.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to
emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey
Oswald was employed?

Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.

Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact,
pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after
he had gained employment.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he
actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young
Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where
the place of employment is located?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I
have already referred----

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.----

Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in
Dallas," does not give a time of day.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.

Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when
the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the
evening.

If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as
to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that
he was looking and was discouraged.

I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would
get a job at the School Book Depository.

I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in
respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School
Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had
been accepted and said he would start work the next day.

Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual
practice of calling in the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll
call?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?

Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What happened?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.

Did you hear her end of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling
me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for
work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We
must thank Mrs. Randle."

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the
YMCA?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the
circumstances, please?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been
during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so.
He rarely talked with me when he was out.

Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?

Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October,
the same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the
7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.

Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.

Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you
came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was
given to you.

Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a
room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.

Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in
other words.

Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?

Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.

Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation
between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the
baby actually arrive?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone
number?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone
number--did you record it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what?

Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.

Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in
which you have made that recording?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.

Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave
you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.

Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know,
Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.

Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the
apartment or room was?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are
other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him
by?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given
to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in
connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald,
Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number
subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.

Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under
which you received a second number?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't
recall.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again
it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your
home and gave you the second number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that
he gave it to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a
week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he
was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but
that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges
and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.

Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School
Book Depository, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even
the area in Dallas where his second room was located?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as
to when you might call him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.

Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by
other than his surname by which you knew him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the----

Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.

Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed
at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping
while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the
hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. What day?

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one
of his regular visits?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.

Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.

Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the
particular circumstances of the call.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had
a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not
right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had
gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear
what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that
he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.

Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the
hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I
should get back to my children.

Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night.

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.

He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I
considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news
there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would
have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went
to bed and told him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if
he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I
assume you told him that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that
evening.

Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.

Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go
to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and
encouraged him to go.

Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?

Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind
that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had
already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital
when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his
mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.

Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?

Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one
admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not
permitted to get in.

Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned
home with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?

Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following
morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party
for him?

Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday,
the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was
the week before, too. I was wrong then.

Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.

Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his
position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend
when he came home?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is
Friday to Sunday, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out
whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw
some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not.
So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was
a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of
Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?

Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best
recollection anyway.

Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was
nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of
November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend.
That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application
bureau, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of
Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his
reporting his visit to Mexico.

Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not
fully credit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of
November 15 through 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.

Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination
day?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?

Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend
which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans
Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more
comfortable if he didn't come out.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on
that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?

Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my
little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I
was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone
conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go
himself to the driver training station.

Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this
afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would
want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a
little recess now.

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or
question and answer?

(The reporter read the question and answer.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that
you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How
long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't
think I can fix it more exactly.

Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards?
You returned on September 24?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that
marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I
recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to
fix it at the latter part of October?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?

Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when
you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.

Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later
was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.

Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed
to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at
all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the
assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?

Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a
package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I
cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I
certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon
at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not----

Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.

Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question,
you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the
assassination that afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into
the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that
time.

Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.

Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.

Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any
purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time
that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston,
if he went to Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in
October, therefore.

Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?

Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.

Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter
read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and
17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to
your home.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not
to come that particular weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that
weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your
attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.

Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to
him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to
my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and
you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over
what night it was.

Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it
occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your
home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you
recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to
Lee and you did so at her request?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone
already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to
attempt to get a driver's license permit.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called
Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had
called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very
day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he
had given me, with his number in my telephone book.

Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call
papa" and asked me----

Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.

Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of
that.

Mr. JENNER. Was it----

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.

Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday,
was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday
preceding November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that
was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any
annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on
the phone.

Mr. DULLES. I realize that.

Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I
didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.

Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone
messages which we are now discussing?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same
telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there
was no irritation I noticed.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to
come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing
but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?

Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.

Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state,
you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you
in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked
me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had
given us. I then dialed the number----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?

Mrs. PAINE. The second number.

Mr. JENNER. And that number is?

Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993.

Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer?

Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the
person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that
effect.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is
nobody by that name here"?

Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know
Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.

Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.

Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name?

Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person
who answered was a man?

Mrs. PAINE. Was a man.

Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would
like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what
occurred?

You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee
Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of
what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said,
"Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.

Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that
number."

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything.

Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.

Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you,
you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker
practice, and I don't normally do it that way.

Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice?

Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister."

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out
forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him.
Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about
the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.

Mr. JENNER. But you did?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it
important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after
I asked you the next.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this
telephone call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called----

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the
kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly
was upset, and angry, and when she hung up----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific
content.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall
what was said?

Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately
after, which is what I definitely recall.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach
him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry
with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a
different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22
fires," a Russian expression.

Mr. JENNER. This is something she said?

Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the
first time she had mentioned it to me.

Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again.

Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires.

Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask
for an explanation?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant,
she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like,
empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.

Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it----

Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short.

Mr. DULLES. Fairly short.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was
this?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each
other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back
on Tuesday.

Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon
or early evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening,
around 5:30.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung
up?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset.

Mr. JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the
assumed name?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had
used it.

Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and
Marina on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a
day.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?

Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for
normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."

Mr. JENNER. For what?

Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done
something he didn't want her to do, the objection.

Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was
there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on
that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.

Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st
with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he
was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come
without asking whether he could.

Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without
asking your permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina,
who was also out on the lawn.

Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the
car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may
have happened.

Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee
Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on
the side.

Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him.

Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded
because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without
permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or
later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up
the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on
the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything
else.

Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and
unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too.

Mr. JENNER. And it was your own?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your
not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and
Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached
the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to
see if he could make up with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note
what he did?

Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my
children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me
in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already
gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage
to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an
hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I
felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone
out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most
of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They
were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold
weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage,
but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished
my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he
was in the garage?

Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather
than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and
I know I didn't leave the light on.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the
garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he
retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact
that you discovered the light on in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Before you retired?

Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work
there?

Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there.

Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly
recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words
between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them?

Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me
some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly
on the lawn as we----

Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed
warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one
thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just
come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."

And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a
common reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this
happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer.

Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.

Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that
the President was coming into town the next day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee
that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.

Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following
dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out
of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were
conscious of the fact he was not in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the
house, conscious of it.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house
anytime that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and
probably after some dishes were done.

Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes?

Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I
normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed
occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the
back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting
them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.

Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour?

Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour.

Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock,
are we?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from
6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put
the children to bed.

Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of
their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the
garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it.

Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way
whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but
that is about all I recall that he did.

Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal.

Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper?

Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your
children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well
as you can the time of evening.

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9
o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was
already retired?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like
any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers,
laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the
one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. You and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking
about making a playhouse for the children.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on
the lawn when you returned that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring--do you know
whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or
luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character
that you have identified around your home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was
dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he
have----

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket.

Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?

Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the
T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his
T-shirt that night?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall?

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him
when you saw him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't
reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me
she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have
her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this
particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first
thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's
movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able
to recall. Would you try to do that for us?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do
it again if you like.

Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch
of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in
the garage. Was it from out here?

Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.

Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway,
opened the door, there was the light on.

Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was
closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here.

Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door.

Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage
painting some blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. What part of the garage----

Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.

Representative FORD. The entrance going into the----

Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area.
Right here.

Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and
make a place, a block is this big, to paint.

Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was
at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day----

Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand
side?

Mrs. PAINE. Beyond.

Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the
document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the
morning I will qualify the exhibit.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that all?

We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Friday, March 20, 1964

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.


Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made
affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation?

Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation.

Mr. JENNER. May I proceed?

Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr.
Chairman, may I qualify some documents?

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs.
Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which
you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of
October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in
the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how
you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago.

Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you
mailed it to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page
not being relative to this case.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you
have the other page?

Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page.

Mr. JENNER. May I have it?

Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission
Exhibit No. ----.

Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it----

Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be
patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two
sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at
the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of
it. Is that your signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document
in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has
now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the
Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context
in which the statements that are relevant were made.

You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to
be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was
thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter
in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would
you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only
handwriting of his I have seen.

Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you
familiar enough with his handwriting----

Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting?

Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?

Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't
believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of
the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say
10th?

Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.

Senator COOPER. What is the answer?

Mrs. PAINE. It is that document.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen
the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you
saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald
asked you if he could use your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter
or at least some document?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion
of it arrested your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed
document or was it the document that is before you?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is
before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.

Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you
make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this,
Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which
you saw in your home on your desk secretary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No.
103 the document--oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.

Senator COOPER. It is in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has
already been admitted in evidence.

Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked
as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for
identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine
home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference
to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday
afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an
accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving,
Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.

Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and
sections of the home properly entitled?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the
hallways in your home and the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the
upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square
space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area
immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining
area.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is
designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the
words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space,
that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion
of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an
arrow, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the
garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification,
is that a front view of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is
that a view of the east side of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know.

Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of
your home?

Mrs. PAINE. West and north.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home
looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway
area leading to the backyard of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your
home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission
Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in
your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered
"kitchen-dining area."

Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion.

Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which
is unlettered?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way,
have you ever been in the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan
and pictures of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?

Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr.
Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in
existence.

I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle
Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor
plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. On several occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle
home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate
floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and
true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of
the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you----

Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there
and I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan.

Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking
then west.

Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate
picture of the front of the kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now?

Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444,
is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a
view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Across the street?

Mrs. PAINE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of
the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport
from the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the
carport; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the
carport?

Mrs. PAINE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the
carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it.

Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking
toward the Randle home, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of
the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also
your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate.

Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448----

Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just
referred to?

Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home
at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your
attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph
showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a
view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that
point to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an
accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West
Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that.

Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine
and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is,
a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street
and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is
shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the
street and on the corner is likewise shown.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.

Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits
which she has identified?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich
if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer,
please.

Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to
return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee
Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?

Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the
21st.

Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you
had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would
appear on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to
the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed
you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that
her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances
that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in
Irving, Tex., that afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he
was on the front lawn at my house.

Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that
moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just
identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the
floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and
testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448
both inclusive, and 450 and 452.

Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and
452 were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for
our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be
back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.

Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon,
whom do you want to preside?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?

Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a
conference out of town.

The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you?

Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?

Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town.

The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me
at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and
come over.

Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come
back this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for
coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.

Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can.

The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary.

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and
the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard.
As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in
which direction were you coming?

Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east.

Mr. JENNER. From the east?

Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth.

Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw
Lee in your courtyard?

Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.

Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?

Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?

Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back.

Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be?

Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the
sidewalk.

Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?

Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front
of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position
in the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. In your driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the
driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing
across the seat and get out at the right hand door?

Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.

Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you
go into your home directly? Did you walk around?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front
lawn.

Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well?

Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was
playing with June.

Mr. JENNER. How was he attired?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?

Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that
whatever it was was tucked in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?

Mrs. PAINE. I was.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he
was there?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had
appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from
you for him to appear?

Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked
permission prior to coming.

Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this
moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No exception.

Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the
afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?

Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass
at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me
in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry
he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said
"Why, that is all right."

Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. And nothing was----

Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any
explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced
and unexpectedly?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee
Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as
I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that
place, position?

Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute.

Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it.

Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do.

Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car.

Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing
just inside the doorway.

Mr. JENNER. Of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Of my home.

Mr. JENNER. But inside the home?

Mrs. PAINE. But inside now.

Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the
doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud
speaker. I was facing this way.

Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to
speak to Lee as he came in.

Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into
your home.

Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room
and the position he was in.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us.

Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in,
having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which
I refer.

Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker?

Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is
a big thing.

Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President
is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is
coming to town in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it
again.

Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference?

Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on
and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent
possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee
Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee
Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the
house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave
your presence then and go to some other part of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He
didn't leave the house to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in
the general area in which you were in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.

Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best
recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.

Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the
bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started
supper.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the
inside of the house while you were doing this?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the
yard during this period?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It
would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.

Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were
you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance
to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a
picture of that area of your home, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald
in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage
while I was preparing dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at
anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing
dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess.

Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know.

Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was
inside the house or outside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she
was inside or outside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She was inside.

Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your
home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also
inside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas.
By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still
light?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late
November?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate
it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?

Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.

Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did dinner take?

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner
period?

Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave
your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the
garage area?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you?

Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having
gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.

Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in
connection with the preparation of an evening meal?

Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too.

Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible
that you went into the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. Garage area.

Senator COOPER. But you don't remember?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.

Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to
a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking
to look for something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the
ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what
did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the
back bedroom on the north side.

Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a
bath that night I can't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was
also your bedroom----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect
to other portions of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door.

Mr. JENNER. Looking into what?

Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past
the doorway entrance to the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes.

Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.

Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.

Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out
that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area,
not into the living room area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your
children to bed?

Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.

Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took
this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course
in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib
or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour
period?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a
bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also
chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home
from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your
children for sleep that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was
in the home.

Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it
seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be
an unusual thing.

Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay
inside?

Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his
presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he
remained inside the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard?

Senator COOPER. How would you know that?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the
back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.

Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or
rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did
open?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about
that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I
could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds
together with other evenings which were similar.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got
to tell what she remembers that evening.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just
say what it is.

Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry.

Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?

Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that
evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what
Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.

Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I
went to the garage to work.

Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime?

Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that
the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed.

Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened
the door.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to
that?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no.

Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of
your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at
that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment
of which you speak?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time
that you found the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included
if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before.

Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no.

Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the
kitchen or in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit
435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading
to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that
picture?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown?

Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is
on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the
switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining
area overhead light.

Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the
right of the doorjamb?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And rather high?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh,
is that a white plastic plate?

Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly.

Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly
opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429,
that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken
from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the
garage into your kitchen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is
shown in Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission
Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see
the switch?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.

Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down
the garage doorjamb outline.

Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher.

Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?

Mr. McCLOY. There is a light switch there.

Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in
the picture.

Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the
kitchen floor level?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.

Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at
a level?

Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks,
playing blocks.

Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and
off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you
describe your attitude in this regard?

Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.

Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the
garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes.

Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Both going out and coming in?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.

Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen
it is on your right.

Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen----

Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right.

Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it
is on your left?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said.

Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think.

Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded
in the reverse.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe.

Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may
show two different responses there.

Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now?

Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the
two rooms.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the
kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the
garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage,
where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or
your left side?

Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.

Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on
your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to
enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your
observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were
conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic
reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have
any observation?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had
been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be
able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally
turn off a light when she was done, in the room.

Representative FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off
if she left a room?

Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was
the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or
something like that she certainly would turn it off.

Mr. JENNER. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light
off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off
the light?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you
leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the
time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.

Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's
tendencies or traits in this regard?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.

Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned
with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left
the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main
garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?

Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the
trash can.

Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.

Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of
hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.

Mr. JENNER. It was down then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front
door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were
giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?

Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have
heard it.

Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that
at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having
been raised.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the
garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to
lacquer those blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the
lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted
the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior
portion.

Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the
garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that
when you entered the garage the light was on?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have
left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to
the light having been left on?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No comment at all?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to
the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.

Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely
conscious that he had retired by that time?

Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he
was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the
room where I was.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom?

Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be----

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.

Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the
bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to
retire, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness?

Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of
it.

Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that
night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the
bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and
she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the
bedroom. You do have that recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room,
and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you
have described.

Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering
your children's blocks.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living
room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward
until you retired for the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.

Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that
moment forward until you retired?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from
that moment forward until you retired that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.

Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him.

Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire?

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she
retired earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same
time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.

Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the
folding?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were
in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped
package you testified about yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.

Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that
correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the
ironing, what did you discuss?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your
recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home
or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is
unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation,
which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any
discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as
to why he was home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time
in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.

Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it.

Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they
had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed,
concurred with that judgment of it.

Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct
that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he
normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.

Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a
little earlier than he normally would?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock
say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was
just, still early.

Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she
reserved because of this quarrel?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and
not discuss it.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct.

Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.

Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question
to----

Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not.

Mr. McCLOY. She did not.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry.

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at
your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?

Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier
somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10
minutes.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or
5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to
15 minutes?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that
evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have
any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of
your home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had
preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in
the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought
was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness
of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.

Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness----

Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go
to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee
that had left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights?

Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been
doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She
was involved with the children.

Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage
at anytime?

Mrs. PAINE. That evening?

Mr. JENNER. That evening.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that
evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the
next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further
questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of
November 21?

Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would
remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator
Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can
before we go.

Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.

Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night
and nothing else awakened you?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.

Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened
during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a
child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this
night contained such a getting up or not.

Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not?

Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what
did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the
thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he
had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he
had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and
found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and
judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he
made his visits?

Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door
to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or
open?

Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what
happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate.

Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on
the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and
had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and
boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the
television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on,
but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist
and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage
of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television
cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left
the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but
she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the
airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with
the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.

Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the
lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and
I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television
statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat
down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the
preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.

I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a
candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said
"Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we
heard definitely that the President was dead.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even
still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that
the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from
the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I
recall going out to her and telling her this.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is
it your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said.

Mr. JENNER. Would you----

Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made----

Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't
know there was a building on Elm.

Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that
building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat
about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought,
that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give
a first-hand----

Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might
have been the man who fired the shot?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never
said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President
Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I
had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or
hostility.

Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of
Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.

Mr. JENNER. She did not comment?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment.

Mr. JENNER. Made no comment?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then
helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in
front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that
the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa.

Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she
preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But
I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was
definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What
a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children."
I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow
up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still
sitting on the sofa.

Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself.

Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see
if we had heard, and----

Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes?

Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for
not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than
reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that
the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the
sheriff's office and police station.

Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I
know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap,
though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried
after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was
upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding
of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I
moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib.
June was in bed asleep.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to
show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.

Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you
were sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa.
While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any
announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in
a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was
involved?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.

Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came?

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door----

Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?

Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you.

Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments,
apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the
shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina?
Did you hear that comment on the television?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier.

Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.

Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there----

Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell
her.

Senator COOPER. To tell her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were
sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments
over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot
or that any suspects from----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said.

Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building.

Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you
communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the
Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her,
apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do?
Did she come in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my
recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her
this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging
the clothes or whether she went in the house.

Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house.

Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the
garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot
had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.

Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes.

Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were
hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she
remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained
until they were all hung.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not
you were hanging clothes alone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time
that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you
aware that Marina had entered the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina,
after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this
Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home
while you were still out in the yard?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered
the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard
hanging clothes?

Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard
portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is it possible--is there a window in the garage opening on
the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?

Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs
clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have
seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond----

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about the inside door?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this----

Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan
of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or
window or any part of the garage shows from the back----

Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from----

Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no.

Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back
part, into the yard, are there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed
across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across
that window.

Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at
anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to
the time the police came?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been
describing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you
awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that
Marina was in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so.

Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or
response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas
School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs.
Robert--or is it Roberts?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living
room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the
news.

Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.

Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more
than, "Have you heard?".

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs.
Reynolds?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that
moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the
entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go
back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine,
did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown
paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you
described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of
curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow.
Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. PAINE. I still have them.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring
but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.

Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side?

Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a
quarter of an inch thick.

Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the
edges of the rod slip over?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped
them?

Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had.

Senator COOPER. How long before?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year.

Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed?

Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed.

Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.

Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the
size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. How long?

Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they
were then their minimum length, unexpanded?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36
inches long?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two.

Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal?

Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and
longer.

Mr. JENNER. In that same package?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped
up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they
were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two
windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull
blinds in their place.

Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two.

Mr. JENNER. And what was their length?

Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the
back bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have
those curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination,
whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he
did or didn't look?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was
there?

Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the
wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later,
perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that
occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was.

Mr. JENNER. What about the Venetian blind package?

Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is
still there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief
the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination,
at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these
packages were there?

Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator COOPER. At any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally?

Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I
seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator COOPER. Both of them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Or just one?

Mrs. PAINE. Both.

Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing----

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the
assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I
think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you--Did it lead you then to go in and
see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door,
answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. PAINE. So I did not.

Senator COOPER. You never did do it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked
on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best
of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking
out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph
that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you
mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in
which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very
close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing
to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which
she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"----

Mrs. PAINE. "And thin."

Mr. JENNER. What is the next word?

Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods."

Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and
one with the Venetian blinds?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted
a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very
lightweight metal?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round.

Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held
them up on the wall.

Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it
might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would
you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well,
over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over
a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of
paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an
exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did
you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break?

Mrs. PAINE. The break?

Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be
like that.

Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen
if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent
around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing.
We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the
witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good
enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at
hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might
come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them
to us.

Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the
package until we arrive?

Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation
and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have
indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?

Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when
it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the
window.

Mr. JENNER. And "B"?

Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from
outside the house; the window.

Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place?

Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place.

Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it
attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side
of the rod?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends
of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each
end?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in
the rod.

I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449
the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has
testified.

Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald,
or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your
presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods
was mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been
mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your
home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4,
1963?

Mrs. PAINE. It had not been mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody?

Mrs. PAINE. By anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even
inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject,
as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the
curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it
must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure
was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide,
so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served
at these different windows.

Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended?

Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended.

Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as
great as 42 inches?

Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used
for.

Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain
them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and
unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not
extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the
width or the length of the rods is when not extended?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.

Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?

Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches.

Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods,
gentlemen, if you have any questions.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the
curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?

Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police.

Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such
question.

Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are
aware of?

Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know
exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods
having left.

Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to
you about curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no.

Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall?

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else
up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you
have now testified?

Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.

Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about
which you have now testified?

Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping
paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall
that.

Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of
wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept
it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor
Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.

Representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.

Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large
secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom
drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon
which----

Mr. JENNER. The note was found?

Mrs. PAINE. The note was found.

Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string.

Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission
Exhibit 435?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler,
28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many
curtain rods there were?

Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain.

Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about
curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you
know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same
condition now as when you wrapped it initially?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar.

Senator COOPER. What was the answer?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at
anytime?

Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know.

Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't
something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get
done.

Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you
know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject
with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these
particular curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.

Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI
on this particular subject?

Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the
content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember
if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.

Mr. JENNER. But you do not?

Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further
questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the
afternoon.

Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the
assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in
it was situated within the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I
did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They
were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And
found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.

Mr. JENNER. You did find the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you
can remember at the time you wrapped it?

Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping
paper folded over.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep
the dust off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches.

Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Like so.

Senator COOPER. That you wrapped?

Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the
package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package
with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they
warranted a package of their own.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7-1/2
inches.

Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod
which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their
approximate size?

Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches.

Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your
driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on
the sofa you have described?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and
indicate----

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?

Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is,
and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening
that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door.

Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room
wall.

Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window.

Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is
exactly like this. There it is.

Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is
shown there, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked
along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is
there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television
set?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.

Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in.

Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred.

Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both
the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least
one package or two. I was very surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?

Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man
in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He
is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea
that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved
in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to
search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't.
They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I
insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.

They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most
of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where
the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed
where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds.
Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the
garage.

Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there?

Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various
parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald
have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to
Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked
into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close
to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the
blanket roll.

Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and
I will just put it on the floor.

Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll
and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to
have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew
that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised----

Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer
picked it up in the middle and it bent so.

Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?

Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble
and may have done----

Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it?

Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had
at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the
connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing
already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository,
and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not
also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you
hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?

Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you
have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the
package in the way of paper.

Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper.

Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping.

Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but
that was my cement floor.

Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?

Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation.

Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you
identified yesterday.

Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would
rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time.
She was very white, and of course I judged----

Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch?

Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings
necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing.
I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.

Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it.

Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go
down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to
get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might
accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall,
because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the
living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said
that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come
over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.

Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home--where did he live?

Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive--he was working--from
where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?

Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to
get to it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the address?

Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217,
2377 Dalworth.

Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?

Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and
Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where
he worked.

Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I
don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also
accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed
clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter.
She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by
this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and
I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to
ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first
went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep
the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on
her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of
the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school
or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30
perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could
come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of
the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go
with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me
he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was
the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who
suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.

We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget
whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house
to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers
carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back
of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw
he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need
those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised
to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those
records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get
them back at that time."

And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is
mine."

And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the
station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a
list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As
much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then
I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this
car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already
done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She
has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going
down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened
the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still
making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the
children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect
of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just
take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to
you."

And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like
being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him
in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and
her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going
into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the
children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One
of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The
one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist,"
and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth
Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the
police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us.
They interviewed Michael at one point separately.

Mr. JENNER. Separately?

Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her?

Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I
was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored
me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone
whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even
in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become
no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that
the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I
said "yes, that is true."

Then at the police station----

Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other
than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.

Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to
a limited degree?

Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to
translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help
him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what
I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said
in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped
blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an
affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the
translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was
to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of
something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that
she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.

They then brought in----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark
of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice
that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your
garage?

Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to
my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his
question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and
then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if
she could identify the gun as being her husband's.

She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't
absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely
recall the sight on the top of it.

Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I
signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she
had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she
knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session
that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald,
senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her.

Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said
that she was to come?

Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to
work in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. What time was this about?

Mrs. PAINE. She heard it?

Mr. JENNER. No; that she came?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald
had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during
October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't
wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only
proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted
to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't
try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or
didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm
greeting in the police station.

Mr. JENNER. Between whom?

Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall
both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and
then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald
entered?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later.

Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the
course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert
Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.

Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that
none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was
about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be
present?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the
people.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.

Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice?

Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?

Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband,
Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three
children.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was
agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if
she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.

Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that
night?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went
back there. We were taken back by police officers.

Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance
on the part of anybody that she return to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.

The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time
dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked
Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have
to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to
retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period
that I will put in here.

Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night
before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment
together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and
confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated
wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning
something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she
think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know."
And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But
my curiosity overcame my politeness.

Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and
Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall,
said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of
the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and
coming to his aid.

She felt that since they were just small people that there
wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried
to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be
given it, but she didn't feel that way.

Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her.

Mr. JENNER. I take it----

Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me.

Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite.
It would avoid confusion.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and
after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine
appeared. I was----

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody did?

Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did.

Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room?

Mrs. PAINE. None of the others.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and
myself----

Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people
might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press
found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised
there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to
appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs.
Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the
story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.

Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't
thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in
my presence.

Mr. JENNER. What connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a
lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it.

Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy
Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he
could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.

Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose
name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a
picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.

Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a
picture from your living room?

Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw
him wind his roll.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light
simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't
realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a
picture.

I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me
that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in
encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really
want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being
there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have
the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left
fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to
any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to me.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already
related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for
bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and
asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a
shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to
bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7
the next morning or closer to 8.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke
all at once.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he
had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast
or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time
with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and
Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went
with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose
of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal
counsel immediately.

They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers,
I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something
could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts
and reaction in that direction?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear
impression that----

Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives?

Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I
remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast
since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her
until March 9, in the evening, very recently.

Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back.
She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle,
and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't
really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that
morning, later that morning.

Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston
Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as
I recall, and talked with these people.

I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as
I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some
shopping.

Mr. JENNER. He left your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I
felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared
for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I
could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to
the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas
Police Office and asked if they could search.

This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if
they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could
search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said,
"I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and
do your searching."

I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished
and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I
don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.

Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping?

Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?

Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?

Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say?

Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee."

Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if
you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.

Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call
Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone
number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say
who Mr. John Abt was?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.

Mr. JENNER. Represent him?

Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to
Mr. Abt if you reached him?

Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would
serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of
the entire conversation, as you now can recall?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is----

Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember
it, everything that he said and you said?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a
clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out
of the ordinary had happened.

I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in
other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt,
but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so
apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you
will, but I did say I would make the call for him.

Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the
call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got
specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call
was identical.

Mr. JENNER. This is speculation?

Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was
almost identical.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt.

Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost
immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?

Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said
he could call, make this call.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already
just called you about the same subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have added.

Mr. JENNER. Did you, please?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he
thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this
conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny
that he was in any way involved in this situation?

Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or
why he needed a lawyer.

Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station,
did he?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely
innocent of any charges that had been made against him?

Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of
the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire
conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. About what time?

Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.

Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?

Mrs. PAINE. Just my children.

Mr. McCLOY. Just your children.

Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had
come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in
the house.

Representative FORD. They were there alone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you
know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they
were coming for?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books
to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news
people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee
called again.

Mr. JENNER. A third time?

Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.

Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in
your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone
else.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was
present?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice.

Mr. JENNER. Whose was it?

Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the
conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation.

Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was
one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to
her.

Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was
in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in
English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she
might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He
said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He
felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me
to----

Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he
wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at
my house.

Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is what he said?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.

Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her.

Mr. JENNER. His direction----

Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both
numbers and neither answered.

Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you
and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him
your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that
something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald
did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any
charges against him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that
conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to
try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her
when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were
staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I
judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I
am turning detective in this small way.

Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI
agents in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That day.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed----

Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the
affirmative?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One
I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina
to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or
to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with
this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for
Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like
to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom,"
and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to
deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home,
and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the
things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants
doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak
to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same
message in Russian to her but there was no further----

Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you
conveyed to her?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I
recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee
Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of
her staying with you, say, the next day?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that
we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that
occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon
but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.

Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with
Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude
or any comments he made mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they
might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on
the 24th of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone
of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no
answer. That I certainly remember.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had
been unable to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation
Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station
itself.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee
Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to
come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone
calls from him or what?

Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she
should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her
that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place
for her.

Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just----

Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.

Representative FORD. Never heard of him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the
statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having
obstacles or having troubles?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she
was at my home?

Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to
the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to
tell Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about----

Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against
or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she
didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth
about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't
care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this
sticks in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the
22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the
police station?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks
or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of
Marina's things.

Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in
December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon
on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course,
this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service
or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her
husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He
had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.

Representative FORD. Did she know it?

Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall
definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation
to the things she just had to say.

Senator COOPER. What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed
to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some
money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer
in the bedroom where they had stayed.

Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial----

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman
who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but
was under a tremendous strain.

Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet
dead.

Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of
the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no.

Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express
sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or
otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have
this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what
caused that, I can't identify.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular,
that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to
do----

Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying
any particular things.

Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From some outside source?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers
from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the
things that she directed----

Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous.
I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not,
the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot,
an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had
hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle
and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to
protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald,
was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in,
and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the
midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were
there already on other business.

Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called
when you finished that conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You told them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had
the same information separately a different way from a car radio or
something at the same time, which was to put some things together to
take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit
cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or
three. Were there as many as three?

Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very
small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that.
This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family
album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and
included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that
I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well
as the individual items she had asked for specifically.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you
and Marina when she telephoned you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained.

Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot.

Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any
indication of any coolness between you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected.

Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. On the previous day?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone
conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any
estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of
Marina toward you as a person?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go
into it now.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator
Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she
has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might,
and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you
left, so that is what I have done.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report?

Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite
post the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I
may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved
this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he
was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to
move the blanket? When did he come to----

Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come
on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times
that he had worked in the garage.

Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes.

Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to
you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been
compelled to move?

Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection
from what document, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I
can tell when Michael was in the house.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what?

Mrs. PAINE. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they
before the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1.
I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed
way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked
to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime,
immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any
blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and
invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this
conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well
I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to
her?

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey
something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to
translate in the reverse to him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent
and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he
was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did
not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was
and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and
that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone
over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.

Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.

Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times
you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.

Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by
the FBI was November 5, the first time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week.

Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call?

Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.

Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.

Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the
activity of Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I
have, the questions I have.

Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford
has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I
will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator
Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn
for the luncheon period?

Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr.
McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions
and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use
yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell
it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of
Lee and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In
March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she
told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was
more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt
that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were
feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner
in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes
for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered
or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on
one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's
request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he
had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.

Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas
School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money
for her to contribute to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?

Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to
receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful
it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced
her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would
contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.

Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the
subject occasionally?

Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use
those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this
afternoon. Thank you.

Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions.

I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you
understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not----

Mrs. PAINE. I do understand.

Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the
facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your
testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to
receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you
have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely
because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is
anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it
for the benefit of the further security of the country.

Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I
thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in
advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.

Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and
the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did
volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For
example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not
known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.

Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have----

Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small
particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this
incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the
driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much
over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I
said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking
distance. It was longer than that.

If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person
to show just exactly what the distance was.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First,
was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what
kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I
think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind
of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He
seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could
be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with
a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it
yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he
certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street
when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly
drive it home."

From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude
toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked,
that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself
from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.

Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began
to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he
would be treated. It is a whole subject really.

Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what
you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident
involving the car?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to
drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was
one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he
could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to
learn to drive on the street.

Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your
admonition that he shouldn't drive?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so
he didn't have to stop.

Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better?

Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way
home I would drive.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I
imagine, except implicitly.

It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the
light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was
secreting that weapon on your premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.

Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the
finding of the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.

Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)



Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper
comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be
busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in
evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my
hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that
it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your
handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet,
which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the
second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for
its use in this connection.

During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the
second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its
introduction in evidence.

Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to
personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder
what it is. It is better not to wonder.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really
pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which
you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of
which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four.

Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which
you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No.
425?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is
pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your
mother?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in
evidence. It has been heretofore marked.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this
series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs
purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on
the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to
look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask
you a question.

Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all.

Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and
appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man
depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have
given, and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall
whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on
those photographs?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him.

The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please?

Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as
looking similar to Lee?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I
will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you
select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse
side?

Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than
with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my
mind.

Mr. JENNER. And the jacket?

Mrs. PAINE. And the attire.

Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first
one you have before you, what is the number of that?

Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451.

Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did
he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's
attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is.

Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in
evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially
directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I
will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will
remain here though for a while.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your
knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate
word.

Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds,
either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the
acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate
neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.

Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs.
Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she
didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was
living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that
the husband came out some week ends.

Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you?

Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.

Mr. JENNER. Had you finished?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who
interviewed you or conversed with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James
Hosty.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the name?

Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.

Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because
you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning.
But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give
Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald
as to where he might be reached in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did
think of these phone numbers, but----

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the----

Mrs. PAINE. Or later.

Mr. JENNER. Of the interview?

Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but
I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken
impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI
was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought,
and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald
was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to
find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of
the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave
quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular
experience.

Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview?

Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to
the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as
much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I
did say that I expected----

Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided?

Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that
when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought
would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be
perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had
such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I
would have the address.

Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any
FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And that was all.

Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the
only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of
the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request
of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by
Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who
answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living
there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of
the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission
exhibit number?

Mrs. PAINE. 130.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were
your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I
asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had
any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where
he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come
to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends.

Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends.

Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was
not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately.
Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that
followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different
name, were something new and different in the situation that made me
feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.

I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said
something similar to this--that of a small boy wanting to get in good
with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I
didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something
out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that
several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about
the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name,
that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of
Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take
place?

Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Late?

Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no
children around which means it was nap time.

Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the
afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was.

Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday.

Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent,
had you not, that he came on weekends.

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday----

Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly
told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting
was very brief and had only to do with the address.

Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee
Oswald would be along, he was expected?

Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I
looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any
weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a
Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction.
And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.

I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave
him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the
normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to
you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday
afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent
Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report
accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald
would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would
not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends
and he could be seen then.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not
going to come that weekend.

Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in
advance when he was coming?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of
November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he
was coming, would you not, according to your testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he
was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.

Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least
generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?

Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5
when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier
in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.

Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no
interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware
that you were being interviewed?

Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would
be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that
some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or
somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the
Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter.
Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a
clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the
day.

Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent
and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI
agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.

Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told
probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them,
that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned
from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort
Worth?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort
Worth?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or
Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been
interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New
Orleans or Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in
context, to the license number of the FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I?

Mr. JENNER. I thought you had.

Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps.

Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please
recite what that incident was?

Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's
license number from his automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination
that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which
included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in
Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect,
one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was
the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.

Mr. JENNER. You did not take----

Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down.

Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece
of paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the
license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was
after the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little
more in detail.

Mr. JENNER. That is November 1?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license
plate number was in Oswald's room.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know
the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have
already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was
in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as
Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both
surprised at her entering. He then took his leave immediately, and as
he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and
then drove back down Fifth Street.

Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the
street?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his
car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license
plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from
my house.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car.

Mr. JENNER. Parked?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he
had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and
he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention
for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact
my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days
previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front
of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in
front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of
my husband's.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the
license number was?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my
glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.

Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody
walking down the street or who desired?

Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection,
an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so
that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.

Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the
Oldsmobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the
incidents?

Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I
had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already
said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee
are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I
would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or
that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we
were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now
my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in
Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a
matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in
this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.

Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it
stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of
Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately.

Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so
that you could give it to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.

Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned
he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend
immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred
between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made
the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them
that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had
made of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission
Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.

Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would.

Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that
Marina was present some of the time.

Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time.

Mr. JENNER. All of the time?

Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time.

Mr. JENNER. Virtually none.

Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.

Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any
time during that second interview?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.

Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she
desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she
could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?

Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is
conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that
she could have seen it from the bedroom window.

Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number?

Mrs. PAINE. 430.

Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?

Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the
southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought
the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the
car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could
have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while
the car was moving along the street.

Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away?

Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the
other way.

Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the
car in front of your house, that was November 5?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you
want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI
had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see
Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's
coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference
with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or
I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was
settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then
Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I
have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was
inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?

Mr. JENNER. Not yet.

Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried
about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular
or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was
seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At
this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was
worried about losing his job, and he was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him.
On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge,
and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't
recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him
if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in
him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to
hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the American
Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to
unpopular views or any other kind.

This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties
Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response?

Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And
indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported
in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone
conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine----

Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.

Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this
deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.

Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about
speculation.

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for
your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate
when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated
all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the
visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while
he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22
with respect to FBI agent visits?

Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not
certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can
recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem,
his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the
mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy,
but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or
unable to conduct himself in normal society.

I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but
more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it.

Senator COOPER. Who asked the question?

Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"

Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward
either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?

Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being
bothered. That is how he looked upon it.

Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its
effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?

Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.

Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?

Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes.

Senator COOPER. What would it be like?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my
activities."

Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. He used no language.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Did he show----

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.

Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly
should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first
time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you
would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and----

Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent
present or not present.

Mrs. PAINE. He was present.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I
think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said,
"Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American
newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't
like those intentions or actions."

And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that
perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the
press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your
recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?

Senator COOPER. Not on this subject.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and
the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18,
which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I
hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as
Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all.

Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr.
Redlich. Would you read it please?

Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."

Mrs. PAINE. Junior?

Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI
1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath
that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct
upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number?

Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to
the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series
of numbers "MU 8605."

Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me.

Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering
employed in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use
both letters and numbers.

Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that
it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license
number.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?

Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after
November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it
down with----

Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address.

Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want
my thinking--this number.

Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it
still does not stimulate your recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the
license number.

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did
not put down the address either.

Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th,
did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home
November 2 and 3?

Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely.

Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you
that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had
visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to
refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald
was "an illogical person?"

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental
problem, as I have just described to you.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty
that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would
think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the
assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become
interested in what such views are since the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making
that comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make
such a statement even.

Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine,
it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty
he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify
here.

Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home
November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical
person?

Mrs. PAINE. That is it.

Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being
a Trotskyite Communist.

Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at
that point.

Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent
Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this
way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the
assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive
such telephone calls?

Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and
that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of
his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had
not.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't
recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However,
this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald
since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street
where this car would have been parked."

Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily."

Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have
been observed by Marina from her bedroom?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone
interview.

Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at
which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?

Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have?

Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was
at your home or whether it was by telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least
one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee,
Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI
agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference
to a newspaper reporter, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified
had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a
party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical
nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey
Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing
important anti-subversive work?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the
facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?

Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it
to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny
Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston
Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to
talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then
indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very
accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really
to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me
as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to
convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing
to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that
would have been caused by his printing this.

Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr.
Hudkins, and something of that content?

Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I
can't anticipate.

Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important?

Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you
made to the FBI that you are about to relate?

Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly
recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is
accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny
Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to
you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some
confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working
on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose.

Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the
opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you
could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald,
senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this
matron a full year back and more that her son was doing important
anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking
about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to
have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to
him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"

Mr. JENNER. You also recall----

Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here?

Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it
was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not
certain at all.

Mr. JENNER. Odum?

Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone
answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He
said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this
man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do
you?" I said, "No".

"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the
subject?"

"Yes."

"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."

Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really
shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But
then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.

Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call
back by the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think
there, isn't that so, or it might have been?

Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The
first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you
and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I have asked you about that, and I have read from the
report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And
on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation,
whether you called or whether the agent called, with Kenneth C. Howe.

Mrs. PAINE. What is his name?

Mr. JENNER. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned
you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed
as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview
at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. Agent Odum has been out a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins
of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous
Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that
Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been
talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an
informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to
Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that----

Mrs. PAINE. Would you please repeat that, that I stated?

Mr. JENNER. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny
Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had
with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you
that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop
Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement?

Mrs. PAINE. Not in just those terms.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment
one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In
order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine----

Senator COOPER. Do you understand the question?

Mrs. PAINE. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly
with my recollection, that is the confusion.

Mr. JENNER. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny
Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response
to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper
posture?

Mrs. PAINE. This is by no means an accurate description of the
conversation or my response.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs.
Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you
what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation
for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins
saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in
contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to
you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you
that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop
Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant?

Mrs. PAINE. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies
that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark.

Mr. JENNER. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take
this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins
had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph
Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant.

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. And you so reported to the agent?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think
you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to
Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those
comments were.

Mr. JENNER. You did to the reporter.

Mrs. PAINE. To the reporter, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the
FBI, Mr. Odum?

Mrs. PAINE. Inadequately clearly, judging from the----

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you do it this way?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes I reported it.

Mr. JENNER. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the
subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much
easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly
that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies
about Hosty's name." This is where I made no comment.

Mr. JENNER. I am at a loss now.

Mrs. PAINE. Joe is not his name.

Mr. JENNER. I see. His name is James?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue
with the reporter?

Mrs. PAINE. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the
reporter had said to you.

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things
about----

Mr. JENNER. Present recollections Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at
all. I talked with him a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter?

Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins?

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his
statement?

Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would
convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky,
that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by
the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the
coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is
certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as
inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it
clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong.

Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a
Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to
Mr. Richards that if the so-called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest
for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no
hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that
the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate
person.

Mr. JENNER. And is that still your view?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew
that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Senator COOPER. Did you read the statements after they had been written?

Mrs. PAINE. What statements?

Senator COOPER. The statements of the FBI.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I have never.

Senator COOPER. You have never seen them?

Mrs. PAINE. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write
something, but I have never seen any of these statements.

Senator COOPER. You never asked them to show you the statements?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can
recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground
work?

Mrs. PAINE. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely
certain that he never----

Mr. JENNER. Please, did you say it?

Mrs. PAINE. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a
thing.

Mr. JENNER. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy
Gravitis?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee
was doing undercover work.

Senator COOPER. What is that name?

Mr. JENNER. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s.

Senator COOPER. Do you know this person?

Mrs. PAINE. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that
was at the police station.

Mr. JENNER. To conclude this series----

Mrs. PAINE. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I
thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom?

Mr. JENNER. That you said so.

Mrs. PAINE. For whom?

Mr. JENNER. For the Russian government.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that
you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered
himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always
corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist.

Mr. JENNER. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as
a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it
to people who were members or considered themselves in support of
Communist ideology.

Mr. JENNER. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a
member of the Communist Party, even in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. I might use the word in that loose way.

Mr. JENNER. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if
not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent
Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to
have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January
1964?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the
FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty--no, that you gave Lee Harvey
Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI
telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you
did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent
Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license
number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the occurrence.

Mr. JENNER. And it could have been observed on November 5th?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Did you yourself see the license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the
license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again
today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having
gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you
recall that testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through
the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who
had left the light on, and I tried to describe that.

Mr. JENNER. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from
that that he was in the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. I definitely infer that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy
on the 23d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having
stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald
went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal
effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and
handling his personal effects.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall saying exactly that.

Mr. JENNER. Could you have said that to the agents.

Mrs. PAINE. I could have said as far as spending considerable time.

Mr. JENNER. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed,
please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall?

Mrs. PAINE. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of
my recollection in previous testimony.

Mr. JENNER. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have
given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of
November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on
the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many
of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently
rearranging and handling his personal effects.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and
handling."

Mr. JENNER. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable
summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have
given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly
was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some
time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the
day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion,
been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection
now doesn't give me any length of time.

Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very
best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events.

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly have.

Mr. JENNER. I notice that during the course of the interview, and
perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these
two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified,
is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I gave it to them.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to
the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject.

Senator COOPER. This would be going back into the subject on which you
have already testified, but with reference to this last statement,
this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into
the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the FBI
after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the
garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out
with Abernathy.

Senator COOPER. And you did remember of course that you found the light
on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you
think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement,
recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time
that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was
assassinated?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think I said that.

Senator COOPER. You think you made that statement?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my
impression.

Mr. JENNER. You have already related the arrival of your husband,
Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the
assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your
recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his saying anything.

Mr. JENNER. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come.

Mrs. PAINE. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the
effect of "how did you know to come?"

Mr. JENNER. And what did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald
was in custody, and came immediately to the house.

Mr. JENNER. And that is what you recall he said?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was
shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you."

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he also say to you that he "Just walked off the job."

Mrs. PAINE. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here
one recollection if you want it.

Mr. JENNER. Please.

Mrs. PAINE. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination.
He wanted to know if I had heard.

Mr. JENNER. Did he call you before he arrived at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been
told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any
further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired,
but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to
find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about
it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to
whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I
was, and we shared this over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. And his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related,
was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he
had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the
motorcade went along were you and Marina----

Mrs. PAINE. This was not shown on television.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, it wasn't?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the
convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to
for dinner, and for his talk.

Mr. JENNER. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?

Mrs. PAINE. The motorcade was being described.

Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marina listening to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it
wasn't being shown.

Mr. JENNER. Were you listening?

Mrs. PAINE. We were.

Mr. JENNER. Did she show an interest in this?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing
some interpreting for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am
getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again.

Senator COOPER. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina
knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her
room, left you and went into her room?

Mrs. PAINE. I would think it highly likely that she did. The
announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think
around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept
and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina
would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom.

Senator COOPER. Between the time that you heard the President had been
shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into
her room, do you remember?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that
the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions,
needs to go into the room.

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether she went into the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether she went into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding
ring?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please?

Mrs. PAINE. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think Odum was
one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's
wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for
it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her
grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where
she had stayed. I looked and it was there.

Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the
habit of wearing his wedding ring?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should
be back in this cup on the dresser in their room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, quite.

Mr. JENNER. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several
occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to
do.

I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his
wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it.

Mr. JENNER. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding
ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you
received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding
ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a
leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for
Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of
thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known
that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it.

Mr. JENNER. You were not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding
ring?"

Mrs. PAINE. No, Odum did.

Mr. JENNER. Odum did.

Mrs. PAINE. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI
agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of
wearing that wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion
when he left the wedding ring at home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge?

Mrs. PAINE. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. JENNER. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an
inscription on it or were you curious about that?

Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum accompanied you?

Mrs. PAINE. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the
one.

Senator COOPER. The morning of the day that the President was killed,
did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any
unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that
morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Senator COOPER. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you
anything at all about what happened when he did get up?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke
enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he
was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and
she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been
awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to
sleep.

Senator COOPER. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no, Marina went back to sleep.

Senator COOPER. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then?

Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I judge so.

Senator COOPER. But I mean did she say anything else about him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing about his leaving at all.

Mr. JENNER. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example
on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did
he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee
only.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of
the 21st when you went into the kitchen----

Mrs. PAINE. The 22d.

Mr. JENNER. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup
or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of
somebody having prepared instant coffee?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that is clear in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee
having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having
overslept.

Mr. JENNER. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a
sandwich which he would take with him?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared
something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his
room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and
use the refrigerator.

Mr. JENNER. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no
evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of
food from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to
and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on
the life of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. Never.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss
Richard Nixon as a person?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation
at any time.

Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time
that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to
and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by
Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack
upon the person of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion.

Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that
time, talk to you on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me
if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.

Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is
what you are talking about?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have
seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?

Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Twice.

Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police
station?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one
occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever
been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him
directly or by telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and
drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.

Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there?

Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no
reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife
to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this
situation, whether it was better to write letters or better not to,
whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing
that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.

I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she
didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I
talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't
feel helped by the visit.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?

Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly
and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to
communicate through a screen.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the
difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my
children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.

Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that
time at the Martin's home.

Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs.
Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the
information that you were asking for?

Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any
particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no
reason.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. At home.

Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.

Mrs. PAINE. Monday?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not
leaving until Monday morning.

Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on
that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough----

Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good
enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is
without touching it at all.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository
employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read
a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that
is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigré group in and
around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigré group people, but
some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered.

George Bouhe.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him.

Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names
discussed by either Marina or Lee.

Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee
Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I
have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that
Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt
on my list.

You have already testified about them.

Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store
in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her
last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from
her, it was not grammatical.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name.

Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory?

Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the
best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who
told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her----

Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your
attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when
Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of
November 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him
in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.

Mr. JENNER. She so said?

Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name
previously. Although I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory.

Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name
from either of the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the
son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr.
and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those
people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that
very day?

Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall
of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a
party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how
much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done
most of the decorating herself.

Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in
the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that
connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the
assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at
least up to November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of
it.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I
asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.

Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to
your knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963,
just social visit, go out and make a social visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or
separately.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit.

Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the
weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went
off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?

Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was
teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this
subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that
in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was
that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on
Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a
14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over
any weekend while he was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off
the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm
recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one
instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance.

Mr. JENNER. You were?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not
home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I
don't know what transpired during that time.

Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to
your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that
nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on
Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you
would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been
an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can
recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went
to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any
other spaces of time, hours that I was away.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says----

Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of
November 11.

Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald
not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday
mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.

Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove
your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until
the weekend when he arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were?

Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. In Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of
idle curiosity if nothing else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it
came from Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me.

Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a
newspaper as we understand newspapers?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which
makes it a borderline political tract.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything----

Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of
about nine by----

Mrs. PAINE. Six.

Mr. JENNER. Nine by six.

Is that about the size?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written
in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in
Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it?

Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside.

Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond
reading any portion of one of the issues?

Mrs. PAINE. It never did.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian
humor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character?

Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but
it was not particularly political in nature.

Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.

Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire".

Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any
portion of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be--let's see, I am not certain in my
translation, but go ahead with the question.

Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word?

Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word?

Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now
speaking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant?

Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it
was political or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not political.

Mr. JENNER. What was its nature?

Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general
population. Marina enjoyed reading this one.

Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it?

Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She
interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had
difficulty understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Here in America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first.

Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first.

Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.

Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say
these next two----

Mr. JENNER. Published by whom?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't know?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why didn't you?

Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document?

Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken
an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I
really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you read that?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of
newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his
subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after
the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend
which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination,
indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on
television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers.
I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these
two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.

Mr. JENNER. You threw them away?

Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away?

Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't
want it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of
surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you
might call that to the attention of the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew.

Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew?

Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after
the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.

Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a
broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been
holding up the Militant.

But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a
copy of the Militant and you threw it away?

Mrs. PAINE. Why not?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's
attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in
any event?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you
had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if
you will answer both.

Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently.

Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt
you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when
did they begin to arrive at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after
October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.

Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first
appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became
employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?

Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.

Mr. JENNER. He came to your house?

Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never
complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing
address.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you
nothing of that nature came to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about
or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals
had come to your home, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what?

Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.

Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those?

Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition
especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily.

Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it?

Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was
only the Sunday papers.

Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday
issue around or Thursday issue around your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and
Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my
attention?

Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee
Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I
have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all
such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see
the letters written since the assassination to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question.

You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones
that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having
been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that
correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here.

Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not
relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me
everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich
Rainey----

Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been
tendered and which was said not to be relevant----

Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it.

Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed?

Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina.

Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the
original and I also have a typewritten copy.

Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence?

Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to
anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that
Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.

Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the
Oswalds but to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name----

Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have
to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the
Commission.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is
in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a
copy of a letter as I recall?

Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to?

(Short recess.)

Senator COOPER. On the record.

Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends
to cover, I hope in a hurry.

You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or
afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning.

Mr. JENNER. Early morning.

Did you drive right straight through to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed
on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which
would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that
I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every
need.

Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified
about them yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee
Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and
reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is
that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days
by you?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station
around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the
FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter,
haven't I, for the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. With----

Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection
is as you have already stated?

Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a
Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove
him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the
employment office.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

What occasion was this?

Mrs. PAINE. What day?

Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a
Monday.

Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book
Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was
his purpose.

Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the
matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which
was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs.
Roberts about this.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best
recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th
of October?

Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th.

Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the
day then?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate--did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and
seeing his apartment or room?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your
home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of
his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?

Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more
comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it,
said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the
refrigerator.

Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for
curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any
additional appointments?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time.

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of
Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania
Music Department, has he not?

Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?

Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she
has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to
whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the
role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped
that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the
east.

Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that
I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip
before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip.

Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip.

Mr. JENNER. You did see her?

Mrs. PAINE. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. At her home.

Mr. JENNER. Where is her home?

Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying
in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about
Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an
American who is now residing in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina,
but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital
difficulties with her husband.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey
in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment,
but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some
alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down
there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael
thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and
I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and
concerned her deeply.

And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I
said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else,
that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt
I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation,
that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject
myself or my children to possible harm from him.

She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might
possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not
a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as
having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of
violence in relation to me.

Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?

Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be
perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in
fact, angry at my offer.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.

Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you
intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about
2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an
American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?

Did you say that much to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to
go.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that
connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her
husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his
husband's role was concerned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Similar?

Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina
wished to leave Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to
your sister as to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection.

Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up
to----

Mr. JENNER. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I
want.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and
there were a great many people, about this friend because it was
important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't
care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the
spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in
New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.

Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this
period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a
negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression
of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were
talking.

Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was
more forceful than what I said.

Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?

Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited
there in September of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife
where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's
husband was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred
to him as a Marxist.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a
Communist in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt
there was a distinction as he----

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist
was as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression.

Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was
the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?

Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him.

Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had?

Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took
care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from
a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey
by that description?

Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that
was my impression.

Mr. JENNER. More pure than what?

Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of
them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with
Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's
political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of
them?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the
feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed
toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those
difficulties resulted?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling.

Mr. JENNER. You did not.

What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?

Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from
her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that
it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their
difficulties.

Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still
leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude
that she couldn't.

She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on
her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather
than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer?

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or
not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald
in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found
him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor
background?

Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.

Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the
United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that.

I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.

Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that
appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that
you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from
your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?

Do you recall that?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.

Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I
recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort
Worth Press?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a
more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from
the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly
in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen
him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I
was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have
already described.

The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could
have--the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could
have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if
the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the
purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.

And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his
reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any
other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.

Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle
practice?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to
from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough
place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.

Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he
practiced?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area,
just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car
drive I would expect.

Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you
ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of
the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he
could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing
range?

Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press
that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen
him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the
following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on
the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the
reporters asked me about it.

Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you
considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the
21st before you got up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question.

Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was
not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house
on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps
I will understand it better.

Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your
house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including
also the morning of the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or
might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your
return from Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that
period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken
place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?

Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the
matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up,
did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention
to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?

Mrs. PAINE. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was
worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to
Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not
to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as
that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in
Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his
citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley
would not talk about it.

Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given
it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee
Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?

Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him
that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.

Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs.
Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia
alone?

Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did.

Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak
English?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did.

Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a
few questions?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and
Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that.
Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.

Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed
Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she
had seen in Lee's possession.

What did she say about it?

Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun,
that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not
absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun
or not.

Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Were you translating?

Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov.

Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.

Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as
I recall.

Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the
words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she
described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference
to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.

Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in
Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or
whatever the word used was on the gun.

Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted
that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on
the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything
more about having seen the rifle before?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Senator COOPER. To you? What?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from
Dallas when he would come for his visits?

Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he
came with Wesley Frazier.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him
to your house?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the
Depository brought him to the house?

Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of
the people with whom he worked at the Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no.

Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers,
associates there?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or
disliking them as a group or as individuals?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he
ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?

Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone.

Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person?

Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have
already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any
such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can
recall.

Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not
agree with his political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. How did you know that?

Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me
indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.

Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't
agree with them.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed
out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she
disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.

Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if
any?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in
politics. She----

Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a
Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever.

Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist
or a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun
at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk,
whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.

Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you
may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you
did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the
Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the
Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect
your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested
because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it
was an unusual circumstance which interested you?

Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious
sense of what could have motivated him to do this.

Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about
it, inquire about his experience?

Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough.

Senator COOPER. What led him to do it?

Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak
Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise
as many questions.

Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his
defection and the reasons for returning?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Senator COOPER. And his political views, his economic views, that kind
of thing?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did
not.

Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either
did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was
a Communist.

Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself
as a Marxist.

Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship
to communism?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes.

Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was
necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party
to be a Communist in his views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually
accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being----

Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony
as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to
your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.

Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own
words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about
that, as being in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself
whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about
ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to
me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls
Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.

But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.

Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the
employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such
person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in
your house?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was
not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they
would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk
to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.

Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he
received and read.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at
your house?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house.
He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.

Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means,
financial means.

Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers
sent to him from Russia, England, New York?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I observed----

Senator COOPER. The Communist Worker comes from New York.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly
considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I
observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his
behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee
Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give them any money?

Mrs. PAINE. Cash money; no.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Cash; no.

Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.

Senator COOPER. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over
physical possession of it?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Senator COOPER. To either Lee or Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not at any time to either one.

Senator COOPER. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home
for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. I have just one or two more.

You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent
or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.

I believe you said that.

Mrs. PAINE. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no
contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been
of any interest to the Soviet Union.

Senator COOPER. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to
speak Russian.

Mrs. PAINE. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar
never was good.

Senator COOPER. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to
go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed
himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was
able to bring his wife.

You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New
Orleans----

Mrs. PAINE. In this country?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas
to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then
back to Dallas.

Senator COOPER. What made you willing to have this man, you have said,
this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have
him in your house?

Mrs. PAINE. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have
described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian
language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier
had he not come out on the weekends.

But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such
separation, and I didn't feel that this--it was appropriate for him to
have to stay away. I did not ask that.

Senator COOPER. Prior to the time that Marina left your home--the day
of the assassination, wasn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. She left the next day.

Senator COOPER. The next day.

Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves?

Mrs. PAINE. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was
taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I
just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall.

Mr. JENNER. That is the incident in which you----

Mrs. PAINE. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hosty.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the
assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once
in relation to myself.

Senator COOPER. What caused that?

Mrs. PAINE. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent
my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing.

Senator COOPER. What made you think he would be violent about it if he
wasn't caring about taking care of her?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The
thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second
time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before
I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some
about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for
this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only----

Senator COOPER. I can understand why a person might be angry about
something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be
violent?

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the
contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in
sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly
unpleasant with her.

Senator COOPER. I believe you said the other day in answer to a
question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did
fire the rifle at the President.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know.

Senator COOPER. From this vantage point, is there anything about him
now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he,
that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot
President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds
his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the
assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive.

Senator COOPER. In other words, a person's personality, is there
anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change
the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or
thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to
Mrs. Rainey that--and that was a conjecture in reference to myself.
Nothing that violent or indeed that insane.

Senator COOPER. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the
assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it?

Mrs. PAINE. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the
policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with
the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the
shooting of the President.

Senator COOPER. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite
Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people
later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both
Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a
deal with Life in order to get money?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Senator COOPER. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add
here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite
toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes
Marguerite had on the subject.

Senator COOPER. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business
transaction for your statement or story?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time or since?

Senator COOPER. Since.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was
written for Look which was not published and will not be.

Senator COOPER. Has that been testified?

Mr. JENNER. Will not be what?

Mrs. PAINE. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I
have no plans presently, at least.

Senator COOPER. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of
business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this
assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain
now I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with
Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear
in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing
that, she talked to me.

Mr. JENNER. She approached you on that article?

Mrs. PAINE. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided
before I was asked. But that is----

Mr. JENNER. Who decided it?

Mrs. PAINE. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not
to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside.

Mr. JENNER. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview
being interviewed?

Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there
was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she
was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had
in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West
thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do
it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator COOPER. Back on the record.

Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any
article that you might write or you might assist someone else in
writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300
advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article
which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500
from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if
you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with
this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.

Senator COOPER. If you want to?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away.

Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity?

Mrs. PAINE. To charity.

Senator COOPER. That is all I have.

Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the
preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris,
after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.

Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in
the final form?

You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to
which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and
approve it as to text and statements made in it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done
or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.

Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the
text and statements that are made in there had your approval?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by?

Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine,
and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from
my telling.

Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost
written?

Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the
document we have just identified.

Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit
No. 460, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has
appeared from your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of
the Communist Party?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist
Party.

Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might
call Communist Party leanings.

Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups
which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front
groups?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been
unconsciously a member of any such groups.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to
communism?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your
adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement
of communism as we know and abhor it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.

If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist
doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am
likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered
a good end is legitimate.

I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for
deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have
no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.

Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the
Communist faith?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.

Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.

Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are
interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian
language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose
and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest
in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in
that connection--that episode in your life?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and
say I have been interested in other languages before being interested
in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got
a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke
that language.

Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young----

Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women----

Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by?

Mrs. PAINE. That organization.

Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection
with this plan of Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at
Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting
some credit for my job credit, that is.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had
been indeed for sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.

Mr. JENNER. In 1947?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl?

Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.

Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old?

Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.

Mr. JENNER. Going on 15?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then?

Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at
least in the Quaker activity?

Mrs. PAINE. Both.

Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young
people's society in Columbus at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in
Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in
that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the
national young Friends group.

Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that?

Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of
North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection
I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference
of young friends that was held in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that?

Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter
part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for
communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet
Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a
small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.

Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people?

Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends.

Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?

Senator COOPER. 9 years ago?

Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Vacation period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had
you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of
what?

Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association
which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.

Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world
conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also
attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just
before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at
Quaker Haven in 1955?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.

Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?

Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language,
and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was
at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of
young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I
became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning
there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country
and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much
impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak
Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live
with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the
government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was
not available among most young people, and even among older people in
the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit
No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So
it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian.
Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language
itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?

Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I
offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It is received.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are
now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in
America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of
North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.

Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that
committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact
between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in
the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which
found pen pals for these young Americans.

We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to
be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone,
any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt
if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the
Soviet person.

Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group?

Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young
people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought
communication?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella,
I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the
correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.

Mr. JENNER. If you once had it?

Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and
then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another
correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up
to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard
anything from her for about a year.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly
with respect to subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed?

Mr. JENNER. In this letter period?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a
teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the
time of our correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course.

Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I
sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music
and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of
language study aid.

My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I
haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say,
probably a year ago that came.

Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence
between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in
the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with,
communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly
in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual
exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to
improve your Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same
time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets
for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of
course, outside the government.

Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you
have any contact with them?

Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these
students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union
which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure
propaganda.

Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in
America?

Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we
had worked to achieve.

Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you
read?

Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate
and unfair.

Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?

Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the
Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at
the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the
course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.

Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian
up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching
and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in
Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to
recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated
course.

I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer
language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended
that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing
but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and
out. This was very valuable though very difficult.

Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor?

Mrs. PAINE. There?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.

Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your
instructors at Middlebury?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other?

Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of
the school but he was not an instructor of mine.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name?

Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her?

Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have
exchanged Christmas cards.

Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of
Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years
there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother
still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New
York.

Mr. JENNER. Her mother is?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and
your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional
formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have
you had in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I
presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960
I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed
a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after
that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been
mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School
in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time
there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.

Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian
language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution?

Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution
during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in
Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks
School during that quarter or summer term?

Mrs. PAINE. Summer term.

Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a
tutor, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Who is your student?

Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man?

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. How old is he?

Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your
part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public
or private schools?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that.

Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire?

Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much.

Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will
probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs.
Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission,
is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to
relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its
deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into
which they are inquiring?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into
tomorrow.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least.
Would they take very long for you to state?

Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee
once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is
that what you want?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the
Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak
up a little bit, your voice has been dropping.

Mrs. PAINE. I am tired.

I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to
type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day
November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is
probably no use to you.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit.

Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account
of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out
to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a
particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is
what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at
the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear
all I know in relation to that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members
of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to
feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind
or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my
husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in
which----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the
Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest
only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth
Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would
you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and
relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I
would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation
to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to
answer them.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the
cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not
really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We
never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want
to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would
be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should
be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt
that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I
said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to
be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation
that year.

Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?

Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by
mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or
interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual
partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what
Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is
just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is
so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard
on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that
he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are
totally acceptable to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?

Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always
kind and thoughtful.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. PAINE. We have not.

Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated,
he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and
style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.

Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?

Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22.
He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate
statement of the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would
like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements
and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the
Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to
Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with
anything I have said before except that the statement here has been
much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the
Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion
to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service
agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me
the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced,
before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony
you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we
spent several hours talking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one
in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences
with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of
your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever,
inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that
during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission,
that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and
voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or
heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish
to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a
rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that
was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has
agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine
her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that
understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this
moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony
of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that
tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by
deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but
more to----

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background,
some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian
language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her
general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence
between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now
mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I
was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already
covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on
the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed
investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between
Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do
this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and
discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects,
and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way,
with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after
studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called
again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to
testify.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my
coming.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already
appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving,
Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more
convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court
reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will
make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will
record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the
call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs.
Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)



_Tuesday, March 24, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN,
JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald
R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.


TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what
the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard
Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman,
Roy S. Truly.

These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President
John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with
their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President
Kennedy.

Would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.

Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you?

Mr. BRENNAN. 45.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter.

Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a
steamfitter?

Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?

Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job.

Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?

Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the
afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?

Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased
part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic
Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of
Main and Record. I believe that is it.

Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know
exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I
thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the
President.

I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.

Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to----

Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston

Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and
Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get
there?

Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest
corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man
having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this
corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers,
and I believe an ambulance picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little
park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository
Building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what----

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched.
I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in
a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you
were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as
Commission Exhibit 478.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it
at Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front
steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken
on the 20th of March?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction?

Mr. BRENNAN. South.

Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on
November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. At about 12----

Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the
assassination.

Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true----

Mr. BRENNAN. True location.

Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November
22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has
been marked as Commission Exhibit 479.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film.
And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged.
This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade
on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find
yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the
picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting
on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg.

Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are
not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you
wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a
little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that
correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that
day, November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what
happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the
people in different building windows, including the fire escape across
from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store,
and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few
people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the
sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building
are you referring to there?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the
particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a
couple of times.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I
believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there
right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is
more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that
you believe you saw the man.

All right.

And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.

All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with
the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you
said, at least two times come back and forth.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you
can recollect?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.

There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window
that I noticed.

There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor,
colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you
believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that
with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?

Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during
that afternoon.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance
of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner
at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad
underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really
couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I
heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion,
made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas
Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was
aiming for his last shot.

Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about
now?

Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw
him this last time?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting
against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right
shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim
and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew
the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his
side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself
that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the
right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher
on the Houston side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that
window?

Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe,
some type of a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on
it?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know
whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or
definitely did not, or don't you know?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do
you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you
saw--standing or sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the
window sill leaning out.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of
the man could you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see--at one time he came to the window and
he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President
Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from
his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility
from his belt up.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?

Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.

Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything
else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right
now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything
else except----

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot----

Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time
you heard the first noise and the last noise?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that
there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear
the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a
backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do
not recall it. I could not swear to it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the
sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair
complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.

Mr. BELIN. About what weight?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. BELIN. A white man?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped
off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump
off?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one
person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew
beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from
every direction.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their
search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean?

Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers.

Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the
underpass or railroad tracks?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do?

Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where
the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran,
because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry,
I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas
Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any
direction. He was standing still.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service
man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the
wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.

And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.

I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.

I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story
building it was.

Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window
on the second floor from the top?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. He----

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you
mean the one directly underneath the top floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir?

Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders
or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And
then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting
in front of the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of
discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the
sheriff's building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did
you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to
identify any person?

Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr.
Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the
Dallas Police Station.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes
ago----

Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I
mentioned these two colored guys.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the two----

Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the
officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that.

Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on
the Elm street side.

Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned
them.

Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you
did what, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man
stopped them.

I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department
stopped them.

Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas
School Book Depository Building talking to whom?

Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an
officer standing there, a police officer.

Representative FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And you did what then?

Mr. BRENNAN. I----

Representative FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the
two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor
underneath the man that fired the gun.

Representative FORD. You positively identified them?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did, at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to
the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through
my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked
like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to
identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time
I did recognize those two boys.

Representative FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that
they had been in the fifth floor window?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down
to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that
picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on
that floor.

(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the
hearing room.)

Mr. BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men--Captain Fritz in
Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their
names.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you
talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his
name.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you
talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels.

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name.

Mr. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels.

Mr. BELIN. I think for the record----

Mr. BRENNAN. That is at the building.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and
479.

Mr. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence
this morning.

They shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with
you here today.

Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related
here?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more
especially the Bible and blueprint.

Mr. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3
years?

Mr. BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility
less than a year before the incident.

Mr. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of
November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What has happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.

Mr. BELIN. This is January of 1964?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe,
in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely
blind for about 6 hours.

Mr. BELIN. How is your eyesight today?

Mr. BRENNAN. He says it is not good.

Mr. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe
you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr.
Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and
wanted me to view it, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say?

Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that
Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a
closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were
they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told
him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on
the sixth floor of the building there.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey
Oswald on television or in the newspapers?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of
that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television
before I went down to the police station for the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the
time of the lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive
identification.

Mr. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer
or investigating person anything different?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When did that happen?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe some days later--I don't recall exactly--and I
believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams,
I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that--whether his name was
Williams or not.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it
could have been FBI instead of Secret Service.

But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston.

And I----

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, he asked me--he said, "You said you couldn't make a
positive identification."

He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't
you?"

And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for
security reasons--my family and myself.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and
yourself?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a
Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one
eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness,
my family or I, either one, might not be safe.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have
been released by the police?

Mr. BRENNAN. Beg pardon?

Mr. BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might
he not have been released by the police?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor--greater
contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew
they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released.

Mr. BELIN. The murder of whom?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you
later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him?

Mr. BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that
as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify
anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen
Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one
way or the other?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is something I do not know.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot
positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the
same man that you saw in the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. I could at that time--I could, with all sincerity,
identify him as being the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the
same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a
couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you
saw him, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But
closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at
an angle.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the
place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School
Book Depository Building, and it ran about----

Mr. BRENNAN. 93-foot.

Representative FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time
he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the
restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is
Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record
and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south.

Representative FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from
which he came to get on to the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Yes; that he can do.

Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left
the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise
places he was from time to time.

Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now.

Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your
attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the
arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the
top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm
Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston
Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in
black.

Do you see that?

Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here.

Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we
can keep it upside down for the moment.

This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here
off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And
I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you
walked to the south.

I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street
markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you
had your lunch.

Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes.

If you would, put a "D" at that point.

Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took
that day.

All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would
be the southeast corner?

Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this
corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up
sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. BRENNAN. "E"?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall
is.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting
facing the School Book Depository Building.

Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where
he went subsequent to that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your
point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and
the Secret Service officers?

Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across
here.

Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him.
This is where I contacted the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F".

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on
there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.

Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the
street, that would be walking north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do
remember going in that direction with the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to----

Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you
could, just to show the route of you going north.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the
car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G"
approximately?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr.
Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the
Secret Service men right here?

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got
home--my wife saw it.

Mr. BELIN. On television?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them.

Do you remember what station they were on television?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who
requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe
you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number
of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.

Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with?

Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

We thank you very much for that information.

Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after
the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the
doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Of what building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men
that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me
across to the Sheriff's office.

Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of
the building after these two Negroes came out?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different
picture I cannot remember.

Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the
two Negroes?

Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk,
when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the
steps.

Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along
Houston Street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. You
recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can
see all of it.

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here.

Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston.

Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that
time.

Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have
put on.

All right. Now, at that first point, this would be----

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing
them picking the man up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on
the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of
the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man
with the epileptic fit, is that it?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the
block here. I didn't go up that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?

Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?

Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side
of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that
is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please.

Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after
the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to
another side of the wall.

Would it be to the east or to the west there?

Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.

Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after
the shooting?

All right.

Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across
the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a
letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer,
where he was.

It looks like there is a car there now.

So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477,
would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that
corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you
went to the car.

Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what?

Mr. BELIN. "L".

Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where----

Mr. BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not
actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on
that part which is going down to the Freeway.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right?

Yes; you are correct there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked
right in front of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the
car which it is behind now.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car
behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be
reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on
these exhibits.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked.

(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as
Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into
evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.

Mr. DULLES. What is 361?

Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked.

(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No.
361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the
gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near
the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in
the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which
appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building,
which was taken shortly after this time.

I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows
there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east
windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit
482 is an enlargement of 481.

First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these
two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them.

As positive identification I cannot recognize them.

Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe
these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on
that other exhibit that they were in this window.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I am going to hand you now----

Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over
below the man that fired the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a
"B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this
the one you say now you might have been mistaken?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that
I identified was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have
now marked "B"?

Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were
over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought
this was one window over.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the
condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be
that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?

Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting
being that low.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the
sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the
letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A"
on that, if you would.

Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe
it was open?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just
like this.

Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in
the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as
to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be
similar to the ones you saw on November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes.

Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window.

Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window,
these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were
zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back
of here.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east
side, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know
whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in
that picture. Am I right?

Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That
could be the dirty window here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482.

First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you
don't recall whether it was or was not there.

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could
not say it definitely wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you
believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.

All right.

Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I
believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief
Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with
Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission,
and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in
Dallas in the first part of April.

And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing
of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.

I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of
the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.

Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade
turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from
which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time
you saw the rifle in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man
or rifle in the window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that
first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought
it was?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether
or not there was any man in the window during that period?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first
thought was what?

Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker.

Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the
first and last?

Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire
of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was
throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it
was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man
taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only
positive recollection of two shots.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of
what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The
first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and
clear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or
the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.

Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified
as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could
you see what he was firing at?

Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But
immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should
be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the
President or his car at that time.

And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high
enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they
record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point
you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as
approximately 90 yards.

At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be
on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?

Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had
asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also
he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was
fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that
he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards.

Now, I----

Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?

Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position.

Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.

Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a
lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey
Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with
the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you
stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw
fire the rifle.

Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI
on or about November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe----

Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct,
as to what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not
identify the person, apart from what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I----

Mr. BELIN. No.

What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this
person as the man you saw firing the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you
asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior,
which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as
though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I
could have positively identified the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview
that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time,
according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were
sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at
the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a
lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because
it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the
slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was
that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of
identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you
made of Oswald at the police department.

Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told
the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does.

Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in
which at that time the interview records that while you were at home
and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible
assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture
on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you
retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle,
but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt
that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.

Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most
resembled the man that you had seen in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive
identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the
man in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I
didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not
want to give a positive identification at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt
these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that----

Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on
January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled
the man you had seen in the window.

Is that what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

You mean told this man?

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told
him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted
that I was saying that again.

Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words.

When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the
lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in
the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th
of this year.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal
recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police
Department lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas
Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether
or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the
man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not
what you told him, but what was the fact?

Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could
give positive identification as well as I did later.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle
on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth
floor.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the
man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that
time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me
on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days
later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did
identify them that day.

Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said
that you could not identify----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct
profiles.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as
yet.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is
not distinct enough.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark
the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction
that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as
this.

Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit
darker line.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it.

Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the
rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this
line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was
pointed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the
rifle was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was
protruding out of the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to
be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It
did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as
there was in the window.

Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits
480, 481, and 482.

Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir.

Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window
where you saw the gun?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was
that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of
the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately
110-foot. That was my first calculation.

But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than
75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.

Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir.

When did you first see Exhibit 479?

Mr. BRENNAN. This morning.

Mr. BELIN. This morning here.

And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that
picture? Was it you or was it I?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did.

I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any
information on your evidence whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in
Dallas--that would be on March 20th.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what
happened, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?"
Or did I just ask you repeated questions?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what
happened.

Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up.

Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the
place where you were sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you
had them examined?

Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist
there.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

How did you find that out?

Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore
glasses for reading purposes only.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or
early February of this year.

Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the
assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses
than with them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and
it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just
regular clear.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions.

You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off
this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible
fusilade of shots.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is
that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School
Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of
the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long
would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas
Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the
steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer,
and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.

Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while
until you saw the coast was clear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was
fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the
solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is
hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.

Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret
Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps
of the depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came
down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified
them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then
Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book
store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.

Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone
pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking
somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6
minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time
that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were
on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.

I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret
Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5
minutes.

Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on
that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret
Service man.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon
around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people
coming in and out while you were there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas
Book Store--I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and
blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may
have been completely wrong, they may have--the Secret Service men and
police department, too, may have been directing their search to the
building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the
west side of the building.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their
search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts.

Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not
blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building,
below the window that you saw the shot fired from?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the
case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the
individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include
in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an
outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for
the record.

Mr. DULLES. We have certain information.

Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we
took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.

Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to
have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it
is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at
least a background to show some biographical information.

Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself,
or here in the record?

Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by
the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as
acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an
autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth,
where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had,
and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description
as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs,
sir.

Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last
20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through
with that particular construction job, the union would send you to
another construction job?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of
Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or
somewhere like that.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in
California, private business.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of?

Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.

Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come
up here, sir.

One question--when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as
to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me
what you wanted to tell me?

Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I
told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and
what happened.

Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your
own?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have.

Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add?

Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir.

For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full
statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December
interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man
you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on
November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you
give all of the reasons, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in
the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on
television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much
younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger.

And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might
be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that
he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country
immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret
Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch
with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man
didn't get loose.

Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November
22d, that is when you did get home----

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was your wife there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the
assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the
assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving
her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my
daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.

Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your
grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed
description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave
them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly
confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only
eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.

So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.

She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go.

Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m.,
November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came
out and picked you up that day?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out.

My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my
daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have
them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business
that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service,
to tell them where they could contact me.

And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president
that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and
that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she
called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number
for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would
be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.

Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the
police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any
further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police
station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details.
She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I
just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification.
I believe that is all I told her.

Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man
with the rifle was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I
mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If
it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as
Commission Exhibit 150.

Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make
at this time any positive identification of any kind?

Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade
or so lighter.

Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see the man's trousers at all?

Do you remember any color?

Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the
same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing
that I called their attention to at the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the
man in the window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just
didn't have the same clothes on.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I
am sure you do.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with
the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here.


TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

Mr. BELIN. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take
the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here.

You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas
School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of
President John F. Kennedy.

You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the
facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you rise, sir?

Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Williams, how old are you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am 20 years old.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I live in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I am.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was born in Carthage, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All the way.

Mr. BALL. Graduated from high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course
in Dallas, Texas, Madison High.

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on
as a fry cook.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage
department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When did you get that job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th.

Mr. BALL. What year?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go there to get the job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day
job--I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and
I happened to come down that way.

Mr. DULLES. Were you going to school in the daytime?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All this took place after I finished school.

Mr. BALL. You finished school when?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And you had these three----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction
company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a
week.

Mr. BALL. When you were going to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's
Motel.

Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and
little odd jobs.

Mr. BALL. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas
School Book Depository before you went down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were just looking for a job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I just put in applications everywhere.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the
Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started
me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications
to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.

Mr. BALL. What are you doing now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the present time I do anything--check, pack, fill
orders, anything.

Mr. BALL. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on
the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at
the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of a warehouse?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a
half north?

Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half.

Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I
think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during
October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor,
they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they
were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.

So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move
up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth
floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.

Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in
the building at Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the
fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up
there just about 4 weeks, I think.

Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long
have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have
been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days,
approximately 2 days.

Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any
cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the
sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there
was a vacancy in there.

Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the
east side--were there cartons on the floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the
floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.

Then we had to move the cartons.

As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the
floor.

Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there
a little before eight.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working.
Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any
position to say anything to anyone.

He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said
anything to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a
sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out.
And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come
in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.

Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny
fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something
about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny
to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw
the paper down and get up and walk out.

Representative FORD. Where did this go on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This
is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would
bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read
the sports.

Mr. BALL. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first
floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission
Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room?

Mr. DULLES. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then
everybody could see.

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the front entrance--I could explain the way I know the
best.

As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well,
this would be--the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's
office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in
here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this
vicinity here.

Mr. BALL. That is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the
map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side.

Mr. BALL. That is on Exhibit 362.

Mr. DULLES. What floor is this we are looking at now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the first floor.

Representative FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where
you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to
play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what
he was reading.

Mr. BALL. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any
time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This morning of November 22d?

Mr. BALL. 22d.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The
only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had
started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in
his hands, I believe he was.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you saw him that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him
again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00.

Mr. BALL. We will come to that in a moment.

Where did you work that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went
directly up to the sixth floor and I got there.

Mr. BALL. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe there were five.

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a
fellow by the name of Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. He is a Mexican boy?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and
myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold
Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything
to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down.

Mr. DULLES. Was he in the employ of the company?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years,
I think.

Mr. DULLES. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor
that you are speaking of?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the
orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and
when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us
move stock around.

I think that was him.

Mr. BALL. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On the west side.

Mr. BALL. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were doing both.

Mr. BALL. You were doing both?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west
side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to
go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing
Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with
some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But
he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He
was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with
cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.

Mr. BALL. What was his job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. His job was an order filler.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for
the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and
fill the orders.

If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that
order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out.

Mr. BALL. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to
all the floors, all seven floors.

Mr. BALL. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of
books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, they were.

Mr. BALL. Would a checker--would an order filler go to the different
floors and take books out of cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to
fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take
the books that he needs.

Mr. BALL. Then where would he take the books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and
all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap
the books.

Mr. BALL. And were there certain men down there wrapping books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you
knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would
know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the
particular books that were wanted?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the
building.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in the order filling business?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not in that department.

At the other building. I was just transferred to that building.

I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show
you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had
been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book,
they would tell you where to find it.

Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth
floor, can you tell us about where he was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really
on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I
think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he
was on that side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have
marked as Exhibit 483.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is
north--east and west. Here is Elm Street.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This would be the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway.

Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working
laying floor on that sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say----

Mr. BALL. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and
then we will make the markings afterwards.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits
of the area.

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working in this area down there like that.

Mr. BALL. In other words, from there to the west, or where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to
the east. And we had got about just so much.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area
that you saw?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark
line?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were
you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you
saw Oswald that morning.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity.
As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over
there. I am not really sure.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area
where you say you saw Oswald, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the
floor near the east elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that "O".

Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W-1 and W-1.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this
area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some
boxes put back in?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first.
I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just
moved them out and right back in, as I remember.

But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to
move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this
building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the
window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of
like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.

Mr. DULLES. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the
building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The window was here?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions on this?

Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if
you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot remember.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, approximately--between 11:30 to 12, around in
there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the
exact time.

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time.

During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.

Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes,
because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a
little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure
we would not miss anything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group,
we took two down.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you took two down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always had a little kids game we played racing down
with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the
east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the
west elevator. And we was racing down.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the west side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly who was.

Mr. BALL. You were not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't think I was. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the east side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that was Charles Givens.

Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell
out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure
whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down
Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether
those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator.

And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that.

And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back
up."

I don't know what happened after that.

Representative FORD. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from
which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the
sixth.

The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is
because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking
about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving.

Representative FORD. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from
which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close
the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up."

I think that is what he said.

Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come
down when he wanted to come down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents
according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin,
and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you
saw Lee on the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't
sure about it.

Mr. BALL. And were you sure at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About which floor it was?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure today?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure today.

Mr. BALL. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard him.

Mr. BALL. You went down to the first floor.

What did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing
I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my
lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually carry your lunch to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch
from home to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper
bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Small bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.

Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.

Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.

Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper
machine.

Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was
going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he
wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by
the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the
sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third
or the fourth set of windows, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.

Mr. McCLOY. What floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.

Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me.
I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a
little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided
to move to a two-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler.

By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your
lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you
see a good bit of the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth
floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could
see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not
possibly see anything to the east side of the building.

But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about
to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and
behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to
the west of me.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

Mr. BALL. I have an exhibit here marked 484.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recognize that.

Mr. BALL. What do you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes
in the windows.

Mr. BALL. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting.

Mr. BALL. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting
there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast
corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there.
About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top
edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up.

Mr. BALL. The boxes were stacked up high?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you another picture here.

Mr. DULLES. You are not introducing that at this time?

Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all.

Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this
diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484--that is, the
place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around
in this.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some
area between the third and the fourth window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not.

Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate
area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from
the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.

Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last
mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and
"W-4" the end of the lines.

Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.

Mr. McCLOY. Just 12?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where
you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't
remember if I seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the
window, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken
sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them
back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.

Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484--does
that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from
that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure.
But it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of
the bottle shown on 484?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it
there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes,
right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember--I am not sure
about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of
the boxes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of
some of the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works
with the hand pedal.

Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates
to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come
back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone
is operating.

Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there
wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.

Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.

Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows
moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to
myself. And I just went on down.

Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold
Norman and James Jarman--as I remember, they was down facing the Elm
Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have
here.

On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin,
FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to
the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did
you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back
down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth
floor on.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a
couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.

Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth
floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine
whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned
us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which
elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator.
There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west
elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at
that time were both elevators on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Both west and east?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20
March----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able--did you remember which
elevator it was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?

Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the
fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the
east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory
as to whether it was the east or west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.

Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did
you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.

Mr. BALL. Did you, later?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of
the building, the Elm Street side.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and----

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?

Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in.

Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time.

Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You had known them before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time.

Mr. BALL. It was----

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had
eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or
15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of
November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon
with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one
you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of
the building.

Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up
there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to
Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to
the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were
watching the Presidential parade.

Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first,
they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said,
"Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I
don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact
time now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank
your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential
parade came by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and
Jarman.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.

Mr. BALL. You were at what window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window,
and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor
window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And
I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three
windows over.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see
yourself in that picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an
arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you,
Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here
or not. But I was in the window, that window.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as
we look at the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of
the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend
Jarman was sitting, or watching?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to
the window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480.

Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture?

Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were
doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade,
I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was
on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.

Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth
floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position,
did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will
mark this as 485.

(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486.

(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that
picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is
Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James
Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the
parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow
in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in
the window next to him.

Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's
parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's
parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was
first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle
policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came
around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I
believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember.
I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat.
I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally
was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the
street--I believe----

Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking
about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main
Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking
of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm
Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street
runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your
building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had
passed your window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last
thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had
a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he
pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back.
And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought
they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle
backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together.
The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot
and the second shot, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it
sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.
And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement
fell on my head.

Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old
building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was
sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If
you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

Mr. BALL. Tell us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.

Mr. BALL. Norman said what?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear
the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not
hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't
paying attention.

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the
window that Oswald shot from.

Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the
window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought
it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say
anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us.
He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the
President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all
kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him
saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided
we would run down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still
on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of
the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared,
running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building,
railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought
maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over
our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side
of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody
was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was
running, and we was looking out the window.

Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men
notice it and say anything about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.

Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know
it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got
something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't
you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got
downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the
rifle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were
saying James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like
it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the
shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it.

Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the
sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not
notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after
the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor,
well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little
beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light
much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a
crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the
fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack
that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly
over Norman's head.

Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a
joint with the wall?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From where you were?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all----

Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram----

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last
stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made
the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.

We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you
have shown us you were standing.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also
point to the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I
would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left
like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of
windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here
is the next window, and here is the next window.

Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows
followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I
believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure,
but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window
here, and we all huddled in this corner window.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you
three men?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was it opened then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window.

Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went
to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of
the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Here is 488.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out
to the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.

Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in
the car?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been
shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up
and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people
were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the
building. We wondered why they were running that way.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him.
And we decided to run down that way.

Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it.
And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we
better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth
floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the
sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I
think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I
think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he
had been shot at.

Mr. DULLES. One of the other two?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was.

Mr. DULLES. Said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew
he had been shot at.

Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner
that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of
the building.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you
show me where that window was.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window
here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in
Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is 489.

(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running
toward the tracks.

Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to
go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right
here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.

Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade
would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my
wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I
never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that
Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows
mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.

Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your
building until Friday morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming,
because I hadn't been reading the papers.

Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the
mornings before I leave home would be the sports.

Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of
November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't
remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the
motorcade was coming around that way.

Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally
knew it was coming by the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here.

When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear
anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth
floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.

Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the
sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15
minutes after?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the
reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any
package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard
with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.

Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only
heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't
remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I
got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three
shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was
two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is
because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was
making a louder noise.

Mr. BALL. You really ran?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of
noise.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether
everybody can see it or not----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last
question?

Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were
eating your meal?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard
it then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends----

Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and
so forth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth
floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you
could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is
worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise.
It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first
coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there
is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has
placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of
west windows.

Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the
stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this
other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some
old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here.
And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway.
And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come
out like that.

Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high
is the shelf?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high.

Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But
I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw----

Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either
elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.

Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to
Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you
were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a
police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth
floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle
policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white
helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that
you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they
would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the
stairs. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you
cannot see anything coming down from that position.

Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could
not see him.

Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some
pictures.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you 490.

(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the
stairs. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the
bookshelves I was speaking of.

Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't
you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the camera?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was
standing looking out this window.

Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.

Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.

Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would
like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.

Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what
location?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.

Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the
man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.

We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken
from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only
thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here
was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they
were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat
like they are here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have
been rearranged since that time.

Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do
you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth
floor, 487, as where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here.

Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture?

Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either
elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this
view, 492?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is
that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long
while? Or was it put there recently?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I
can remember.

Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.

Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any
footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone
up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of
November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been
coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did
you say that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you
do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided
to go down. Then we left.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a
minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then
we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women
standing in the window, looking out the window.

Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?

Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the
corner.

Did you run down stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I
noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came
in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these
detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said,
"Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name,
address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I
think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think
we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working
on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the
courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came
downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.

Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you
taken over to the Police Department?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.

Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.

Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and----

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and
another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some
other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.

Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came
down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow
by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they
brought them right behind us.

Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman
still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.

Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so
far into evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers?

Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.

Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced?

Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of
the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492
we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.

Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the
record up to and including 492 will be admitted.

(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492,
inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in
evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions.

When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan,
and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that.

Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have
seen on the fifth floor window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you
got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building
because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we
arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No
one leave the building."

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed
between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally
down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the
fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any
recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10
minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were
looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down
to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a
little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for
the police station?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building
before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the
people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left
the building before the building was closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned
that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him.
"Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know
where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody
else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of
Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown
somewhere.

Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the
shooting--Givens?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.

Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer
asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that,
you know.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted
you, who stopped you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting.

Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something
like that.

Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

Mr. DULLES. I have one question.

You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a
backfire or a firecracker.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three
explosions?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the
sound. It was just the time between the sound.

Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause
between the first and the second shot than there was between the second
and the third.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple
after the shot? Did you see the President hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of
jumping.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at
this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of
Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.

Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr.
Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.

You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas
School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination
of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your
knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that
event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.

Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname
is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose
nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that
correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized
two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the
School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of
the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?

The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here,
I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean----

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.

Mr. BALL. Let's identify.

Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting
opposite?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.

Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?

Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the
building or in custody of some plainclothesman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.

Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any
officer bring them out or with them.

Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two
it was.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you
can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see
one person or two?

Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the
end.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. BALL. I don't know.

Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. I understand.

Any questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the
fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the
school book depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.

Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw
them again on the first floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out
on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you----

Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I----

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning
was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building
on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one
person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it
was to the window which would be to the----

Mr. BRENNAN. Left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would
be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.

Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window
here to the east of the window that you first marked B?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of
this witness?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the
steps of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw
walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees
that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the
easterly most end of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two
windows. The one I circled or this window here.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you----

Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people,
employees that came down.

Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three
possible windows?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one
window which is circled and marked with a B.

Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I
am in question whether it was this window or this window.

Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you
are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another
might have been in a window to the east?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you
saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw
when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at
all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there
on this.

Mr. BALL. No questions.

You may be excused, Mr. Brennan.

You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments,
Mr. Jarman.

Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all.

Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all.

Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back.

Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away.


TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN

I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NORMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school?

Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there.

Mr. BALL. From high school?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job
at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas
and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there?

Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe.

Mr. BALL. 1961?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And you work there now?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co.

Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that?

Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Porter.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this
new job?

Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's
leave after we got off for New Year's.

Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work
were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him?

Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there?

Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk
to anybody so I didn't----

Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was
there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I
wouldn't engage in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The order fillers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper?

Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each
individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take
to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and
bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped
out.

Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the
first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November
22? Can you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. That is as far----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't--yes, I went up that morning during the time I
think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

Mr. BALL. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he
filled orders for?

Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman.

Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he
filled, you know.

Mr. BALL. He filled those orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept?

Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the
first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the
22d?

Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5
minutes until 8 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. You weren't late?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work.

Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the
neighborhood of that.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you
know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. NORMAN. The first.

Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come
by to fill orders.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?

Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that?

Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I----

Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up?

Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom.

Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room.

Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Right next to it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?

Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in
the morning until you got it at noon?

Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that
some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that
day?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the
domino room, with me.

Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?

Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually
played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that
morning.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys
usually come in to play.

Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour?

Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period.

Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first
floor.

Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?

Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I
believe. I am not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?

Mr. NORMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?

Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.

Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10,
something like that.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the
sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were
standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back
of us.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on
the steps there.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out
there. There were more people out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that
the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main,
because Commerce--we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?

Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.

Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill
quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you
know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from
the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I
can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two
or three windows ourselves.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?

Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got
there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.

Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade
came by?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the
motorcade?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three
windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further
than that.

Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No.
482. Do you recognize anybody in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme
southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were
looking?

Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast
corner?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which
you were looking.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482.

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself.

Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you
standing up or sitting down?

Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up.

Mr. BALL. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you
sitting?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in
a hunched over position somewhat like this.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior
Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me,
didn't you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a photographer?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what
did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought
we were in during the time of the motorcade.

Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the
picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there.

Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that
picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the
President's motorcade went by?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more
straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this
position here.

Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the
street, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was,
well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair.
Maybe he was looking to the public.

Mr. McCLOY. Saluting?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With which arm?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what
the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard
the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or
something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told
me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I
think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and
I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third
shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell
hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as
though it was to me.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men
then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?

Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear
the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I
hear anybody moving, you know.

Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that
you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Falling?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots
came from?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they
thought where it came from.

Mr. BALL. But you did?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?

Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?

Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray
Williams' hair.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first.
Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to
brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.

Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over
after the first shot?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that.

Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor.

Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor?

Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and
this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your
two friends run?

Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came
to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window
on this end here, right here.

Mr. BALL. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a
photographer, you ran to that window, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we
ran to.

Mr. BALL. And you opened that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And had your picture taken?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you
ran to?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it
was between these two windows here.

Mr. BALL. One of the two windows?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards
the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why
everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe----

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth
floor.

Mr. BALL. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you went to what window?

Mr. NORMAN. To the west window.

Mr. BALL. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as
you remember it?

Mr. NORMAN. It was between this point here, these two right here.

Mr. BALL. That is marked Z?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that correct?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to that window?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I
remember looking out the window that day.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me
on that floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at when you looked out that window?

Mr. NORMAN. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives,
they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some
guy on top of them.

Mr. BALL. On top of the cars?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. They were going through there.

Mr. BALL. You saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad
tracks?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in
Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. NORMAN. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you
standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it.

Mr. BALL. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the row of bins.

Mr. BALL. They block off the stairwell.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were
there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see
if we could see any one of you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where are you?

Mr. NORMAN. In the middle.

Mr. BALL. And who is that on the end?

Mr. NORMAN. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Who is this one?

Mr. NORMAN. James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was
taken, 492?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember that picture.

Mr. BALL. Can you see anyone in that picture?

Mr. NORMAN. I see one person.

Mr. BALL. Can you make him out?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Jarman, the one on the end?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't.

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any elevator operator?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Going up or down?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't recall anyone.

Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to
the first floor how did you go down there?

Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the
stairway.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you,
police officers?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as
we got down there. I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they
talked to us.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?

Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in
the vicinity of that.

Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with?

Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.

Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first door until you
left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stay?

Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't
you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement
made by this witness, which I now mark 493.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December
1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special
Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember
Mr. Carter.

Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement
and I will ask you if you told him that:

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds
later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from
directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to
the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw
some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that
whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots
came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't
remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I
heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of
the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit
No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers
to the bolt action?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret
Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that
you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?

Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection.

Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see
whether or not you could hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the
experiment?

Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same
position but I was in the same window.

Mr. BALL. The same window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window was open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't
he?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard
three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the
rifle or whatever he had up there.

Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor,
hasn't there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the
condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there
because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the
plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a
little daylight during that time.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the
ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the
fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?

Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then
another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering
through the crack.

Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of
the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could
you see daylight through there?

Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

Mr. BALL. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the
cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. What was it?

Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars.

Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted
the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30?

Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22.

Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used
to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a
friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told
me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I
got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a
job.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your
former job?

Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time
that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran
down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there
and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the
first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general
estimate of about how much time that took?

Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what
was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end
of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there
and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did
you go all the way down?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.

Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you
say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you
got down on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes,
somewhere like that.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other questions.

Mr. BALL. I have one question.

On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a
report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that
you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof
but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from
above you. Did you tell him that?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the
window.

Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots
were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you
remember telling him that?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you
ever been convicted of a crime?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any
thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there
where the shots were coming from there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one
occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers
say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Not until after----

Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time.

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs?
Did you come out the front door?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing
Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?

Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but
it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because
he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.

Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called
you over?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man,
but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him
talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we
first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I
heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by.
There was quite a few people standing around there.

Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these
comments?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.

Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the
building or come back?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then came back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or
did you do it on your own initiative?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not,
but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from
the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in
the building or before or what.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with?

Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember.

Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of
his background and biography?

Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his
jobs through high school.

He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life.
I think that is all.

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)


TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR.

Mr. BELIN. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you do. Glad to see you.

Mr. BELIN. Congressman Ford----

Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JARMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your
examination before the Commission?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please?

Mr. JARMAN. James Jarman, Junior.

Mr. BALL. What do they call you, Junior?

Mr. JARMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. JARMAN. 4930 Echo.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. JARMAN. 34.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. JARMAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Have you lived there all your life?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. BALL. You still live there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. JARMAN. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed
there for about a year.

Mr. BALL. What did you do in California?

Mr. JARMAN. I was living with my aunt at the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you work?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was still in school.

Mr. BALL. What school did you go to?

Mr. JARMAN. Alameda High.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left
California?

Mr. JARMAN. I came back to Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school any more?

Mr. JARMAN. No, I went into service.

Mr. BALL. What year did you go in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. 1948.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. I was in the service up until 1952.

Mr. BALL. What service?

Mr. JARMAN. U.S. Army.

Mr. BALL. And did you enlist in 1948?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Enlisted?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did 4 years in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953.

Mr. BALL. Then what?

Mr. JARMAN. And reenlisted in the service again.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the Army this time?

Mr. JARMAN. Until 1956.

Mr. BALL. And were you discharged then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository
for about 2 months after.

Mr. BALL. After you got out of the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are still there; are you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you
didn't work there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many times?

Mr. JARMAN. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November,
and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back
again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit
there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the
Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and
I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been
there ever since.

Mr. BALL. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last
fall?

Mr. JARMAN. Checker.

Mr. BALL. What does a checker do?

Mr. JARMAN. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to
different schools.

Mr. BALL. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have
your----

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On a table. You have a table?

Mr. JARMAN. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and
put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the
wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. Only as a coworker.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. JARMAN. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is
about all.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about politics?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Religion?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Anything at all?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until November the 22d.

Mr. BALL. Not until that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until that day.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald have any friends there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with
every day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the
time or bought his lunch most of the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Most of the time he brought his lunch.

Mr. BALL. Most of the time he brought his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, occasionally. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. I don't understand.

Mr. JARMAN. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time
I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.

Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every
morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?

Mr. JARMAN. I think once or twice he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again
over by the coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. That is the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. JARMAN. About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do about lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. JARMAN. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Where in the domino room?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of
windows in there and I put it in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what
time it was.

Mr. BALL. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. JARMAN. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

Mr. BALL. Between 8 and 9?

Mr. JARMAN. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.

Mr. BALL. You had him correct an order?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN. In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the
window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on
the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass
that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I
told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then
back again on Elm.

Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Went in the rest room and washed up.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got
me a soda pop.

Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge?

Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor.

Mr. BALL. On the second floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?

Mr. JARMAN. Came back and went down to the window.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. Where Oswald and I was talking.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Between those two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. Where Oswald and you had been talking?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. JARMAN. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came
back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it
going toward the domino room.

Mr. BALL. You say you ate the rest of it when?

Mr. JARMAN. Walking around on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your
sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was standing.

Mr. BALL. And did you have the pop in your hand, too?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other.

Mr. BALL. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing
your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what
did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the
case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. BALL. With who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

Mr. BALL. You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and
myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. JARMAN. I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. JARMAN. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. JARMAN. I was standing over to the right in front of the building
going toward the west.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. JARMAN. On the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository
Building?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. BALL. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with
you in the Book Depository?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. He wasn't standing close to me.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was he with?

Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. O. V. Campbell.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. JARMAN. They were standing at the corner of the building in front
of the mail boxes.

Mr. BALL. You left there, didn't you, and went some place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and myself.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth
floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went around. You mean you went around the
building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go through and cross the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway
there, so we decided to go around.

Mr. BALL. You went in the back door?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. JARMAN. We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. The west side elevator.

Mr. BALL. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. To the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any
more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth
floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. BALL. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was
in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the
building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. BALL. Which windows did you raise?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side
of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised,
counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. BALL. It would be the fourth window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Who joined you?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. JARMAN. He took the window next to Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas
School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before
which you were standing and out of which you were looking?

Mr. JARMAN. This window here.

Mr. BALL. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the
window out of which Harold Norman was looking?

Mr. JARMAN. He was first right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the one marked with a red arrow?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one.

Mr. BALL. Next to the window of Norman, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was----

Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that?

Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are they?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas
State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your
picture taken, did you not?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?

Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the
assassination was.

Mr. BALL. And did you do that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as
Commission Exhibit 494.

Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the
time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.

Mr. BALL. You are on your knees?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new
exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What does it show?

Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was
passing.

Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men?

Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing.

Mr. BALL. It shows their position?

Mr. JARMAN. At the time.

Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you
have seen that, Congressman.

Representative FORD. This is yourself here?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the
photograph.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?

Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there
was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it
was a backfire.

Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?

Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President.
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and
I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I
said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody
was shooting at the President.

Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything?

Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the
shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few
debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I
told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster?

Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the
building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it
didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the
west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection
or anything like that, do you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. After you got down where?

Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Down the west side?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which
you ran, didn't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?

Mr. JARMAN. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And who opened it?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window?

Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was
running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had
the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.

Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and
Harold Norman was over to the side of me.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because
that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had
stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around
the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the
second window.

Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last
Friday, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side?

Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also.

Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the
secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger
train and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something
that he had heard cartridges?

Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had
went to this window.

Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean?

Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out
this window.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the
window that is shown in 489?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows.

Mr. BALL. Between the two?

Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window.

Mr. BALL. To that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say?

Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting
the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt,
as it were pulled back, or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there?

Mr. JARMAN. None.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast
corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran
when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards
the----

Mr. JARMAN. This one here.

Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. This one right here.

Mr. BALL. That one marked Y.

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out
when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the
building on the west.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there
at Z?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.

Mr. BALL. They block your view?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you
could see from Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line
near the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins.

Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see
when you were along this west wall?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you
were standing there at the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward
the railroad tracks from the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard
the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd
better get the hell from up here.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had
gone down.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we
paused a few minutes on four.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to?

Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the
first one I seen was Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else did you see?

Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another
employee.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.

Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first?

Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer.

Mr. BALL. How was he dressed?

Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes.

Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.

Mr. BALL. Hard-hat?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long?

Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had
heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out
the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building,
and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the
building also, and then he rushed us back inside.

Mr. BALL. The officer did?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.

Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple
of times.

Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning.

Mr. BALL. The next day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book
Depository Building that afternoon?

Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when
they turned us loose and told us to go home.

Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the
employees were missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing?

Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification,
quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and
he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen
Lee Oswald, and they said no.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who.

Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Charles Givens?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had.

Mr. McCLOY. He had been there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later?

Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him
up.

Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He didn't?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention
to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were
fired?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it
this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the
time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much
time do you think it was?

Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a
minute.

Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt
moving?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but
after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on
his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started
toward the freeway underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head.

Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on
to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot
came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from
below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking
at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether
the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any
different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you
were on your knees in the window?

Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years,
two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a
gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my
mind then.

Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's
motorcade route?

Mr. JARMAN. That morning.

Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How did you find out about it?

Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.

Representative FORD. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.

Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee?

Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to
her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out
there and see him pass.

Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30
and 9:00. I am not sure.

Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night
before or that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee
Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming
by the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.

Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or
Mrs. Lee talk?

Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the
conversation and tell Oswald of the route?

Mr. JARMAN. He asked me.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction?

Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably
would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.

Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on
the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the
President's motorcade coming by the building.

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.

Representative FORD. But in front of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building.

Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or
did you go down Houston?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned
going north on Houston.

Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance
on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less
where?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here.

Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. This way.

Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and
Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this
door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we
walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.

Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six?

Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.

Representative FORD. You could see it was on six?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. This was about what time?

Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.

Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other
one was on the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police
or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work?
Do you remember that?

Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had
on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants?

Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt?

Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know?

Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle
or package of any kind?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the
shots came from up above you?

Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side
of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to
thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about
that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come
from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I
could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop
on the floor."

And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were
downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met
Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could
you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this
conversation with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him
about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling
the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Are you a married man?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all.

Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it
very much.

Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.


TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who
testifled this morning here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting
Co.?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.----

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from
opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper
wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the
time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance,
to anyone?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. That is all.

Mr. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan?

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not
you ever made this statement to anyone.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)


TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly.

Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TRULY. I do.

Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this
hearing is.

This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close
to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much
knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely
centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the
afternoon of November 22d.

Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live?

Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir?

Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date?

Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?

Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mr. TRULY. In Texas.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have
been there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. I believe--my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked
with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work
for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.

Mr. BELIN. What business is that?

Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods.

Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them?

Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5
years.

Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of
putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.

Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several
months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression
I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a
couple of years.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And after the depression, where did you start working then?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July
1934.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book
Depository since that date, since July 1934?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company?

Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had
charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a
one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted
textbooks.

Mr. BELIN. And then what?

Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time.

During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.

Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?

Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14
months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.

Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that,
I took charge of all the shipping.

Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in
the late 1944.

Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book
Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at
this time?

Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of
the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a State organization or a private company?

Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey
Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Of what year?

Mr. TRULY. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate
to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?

Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her
name was Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly"--words to this effect--you
understand--"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor
whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he
tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you
can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.--she said, "I have a fine young man living here with
his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a
few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the
conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to
him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature,
but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you
remember at all, or not?

Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I
talked to Mrs. Paine.

In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name
in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who
called me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on
that day?

Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.

So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office
and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.

I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.

Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me--I asked him about experience
that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served
his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge,
and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do
in the Marines.

I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever
had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he
was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't
have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a
nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the
word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.

So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it
was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding
slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.

He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting
a baby momentarily.

So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me
that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.

He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes
out the payroll for the company.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application
form for employment in his own writing?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for
the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your
meeting on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife
and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a
child in a few days.

And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in,
of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything
in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any
openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have
any type of work I would give him, because he did need--and he stressed
he really needed a job to support his family.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be
grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if
you want to call it that.

He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.

Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?

Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the
afternoon.

His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?

Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties
were to be--would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who
is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.

Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley
did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced
in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various
publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an
hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from
then on he worked alone.

He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were
when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and
a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down
from the office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was
working with you?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the
stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But
he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.

Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those?

Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.

Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They
are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly
their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled
some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of
Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have
had several publishers' books on the same order.

Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately.
There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what
exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go
about filling orders.

Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices
for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping,
inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the
various publishers' books.

Now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically
by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines
that.

And the location of the books--each publisher's books are to
themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the
various floors.

On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of
small orders from.

And then in the basement the same.

The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is
overflow stock. It is reserve stock.

But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up
stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete
the orders for the checker.

Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?

Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either.
It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the
first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a
hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20
on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get
a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.

And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve
stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the
first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and
shipped from that floor.

Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large
quantity of their books on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. That publisher?

Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor
quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the
individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the
books?

Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our
girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down
a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of
publisher.

The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on
to a little table near the checker stand.

Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by
publishers.

Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and
Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we
would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular
orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books,
they can tell.

On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so
forth.

Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and
carry them around with them?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have
several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back
to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from
anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.

But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance,
and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.

But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on
the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a
few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to
be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.

Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey
Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order
fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish
up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there
is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.

But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be
easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.

And we have a lot of those orders.

You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about
the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go
ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things.
They are easier to fill.

Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that
have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and
they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just
easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.

Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and
bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are
in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the
invoice.

Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel
post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough
for freight.

Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the
title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it
wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors
with your reserve stock, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular
nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was
working for your company?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check
the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is
doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order,
has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's
number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the
number of orders that each order filler filled that day.

We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more
work than others.

And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such
as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't
do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to
keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey
Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee?

Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was
there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that
floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen
kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving.
And he did a good day's work.

Mr. BELIN. What was his pay?

Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour.

Mr. BELIN. 5-day week?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he miss many days of work?

Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November
11th, or not? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day.

Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496,
which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to
state if you know what that is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for
identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled
out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do
anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put
his number or something.

Mr. BELIN. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a
form of your company?

Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this
might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it
is the one we use now or the one we did use.

Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time
he came for employment?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my
desk.

Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.

495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been
offered or not.

But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give
about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October
1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall.

I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I
would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir."

I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby,
and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new
baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I
can remember with the boy.

But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would
be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf
space.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any
friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?

Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be
inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally
talking, maybe asking where books were or something.

I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had
with anyone.

And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help
with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork
job at all.

Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.

I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally
you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's
get to work."

And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work
generally?

Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him
occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or
something--didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too
much--a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.

Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.

Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the
lunch hour?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.

And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a
little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front.
Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long
enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand.
I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something
like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or
anything like that?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him
about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it?

Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him
myself.

Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November
22 that you can think of?

Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.

Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way,
didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.

Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No.
362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School
Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is
located? This is the front of the building here at the top.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee
Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing
the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book
Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you
heard that, or at any prior date?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular
discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What time did you get to work on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I
came in, and spoke to him.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman
bins.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am
almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him,
or he might have had with you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning,
Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of
my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I
did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on,
around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out
on the floor that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?

Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or
shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I----

Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out
for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate
at several places around there.

It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.

As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't
be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and
watch the President come by.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from
the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few
minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side
of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and
ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?

Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could
be on a little angle.

Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or
south?

Mr. TRULY. North.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.

I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr.
Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.

Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along
here somewheres.

Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe
you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is
that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No.
361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.

And the top faces roughly south.

And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at
Houston and Elm.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T"
the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position
to watch the motorcade.

Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this
way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.

We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around,
we probably pushed out even a bit farther.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the
parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the
letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards
the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the
best of your recollection.

Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway,
we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just
gradually moved out a bit.

And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on
to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little
farther to the edge of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other
than Mr. Campbell at that time?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing
there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other
employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I
think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the
motorcade--somewheres in that area.

I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three
of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came
back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.

But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back
later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were
the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the
crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me----

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for
you?

Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.

Now, what was the question?

Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the
motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. All right.

We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston
Street.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston,
heading towards the building?

Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after----

Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average
speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were
getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out
too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into
this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed
down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the
middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came
too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and
as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street
leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost
stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little
section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down
the street here marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to
have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in
this area.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a
loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this
first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more
explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some
kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop
somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the
last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang
out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little
wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming
and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr.
Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen
this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically
bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did
it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something
like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see
it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by
something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me
and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of
something. They didn't know what.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark,
"Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It
wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I
think--words to that effect.

I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing
along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering,
just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the
building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right
by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of
people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I
believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost
to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up
with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps.
I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that
this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the
floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him.
As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this
policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I
ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I
wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if
you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside
the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is
the stairway."

Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on
Exhibit 495, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?

Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?

Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route
that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would,
sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.

Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter,
what we call our will call counter right here.

Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?

Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.

There--right here. We came in this way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?

Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am
sure he asked me.

Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.

Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little
swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door?

Now, you have point "T."

Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?

Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind
me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut
inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing
to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of
the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?

Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that
we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little
bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing
it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I
started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door,
and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman
ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck
by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and
pull the door back and go through it.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on
Exhibit 362, showing the route.

All right.

Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you
have come to the west elevator in the rear.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right
where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you
go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?

Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they
wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the
back stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the
seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the
northwest corner?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This
elevator over here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?

Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the
fifth floor. Also, the east elevator--as far as I can tell--both of
them were on the fifth floor at that time.

This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a
button.

Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?

Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you
get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.

Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?

Mr. TRULY. The east elevator?

There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed----

Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for
"button."

Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I
pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.

I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator."

Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?

Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough
that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or
making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call?

Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator."

Those boys understand that language.

Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?

Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates
down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.

Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?

Mr. TRULY. Two times.

Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe,
and called up for the elevator twice.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

First of all, did the elevator come down?

Mr. TRULY. It did not.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which
way you went?

All right.

Mr. TRULY. What is this here?

Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway
above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?

Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little
further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on
around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third
floor, and on up.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look
straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were
you intent on just going upstairs?

Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen
him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer
the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways
continued.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of
Second Floor."

You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.

And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to
show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and
starting up the stairs towards the third.

Now, you marked that with pen.

Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?

Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind
or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this
completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?

Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office
stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down
here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where
this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think
there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the
other area across there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the
stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this
a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left
of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the
staircase?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is
back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or
what is shown there?

Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east.

Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it.

Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the
glass is?

Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?

Mr. TRULY. That is it.

Mr. BELIN. What number is that?

Mr. TRULY. It is number 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has
the glass in it.

Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards
the third floor there?

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the
officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the
lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second
floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did.
I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do
not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in
this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the
lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far
inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

All right.

You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at
Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And
I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to
run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey
Oswald when he asked the question?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it
was almost touching him.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body?

Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see----

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I
was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle----

Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door
No. 24?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either
hand?

Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I
did.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey
Oswald after you saw them?

Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me,
does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?

Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you
paying attention?

Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything.
He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody
confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind
on his face.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on
Exhibit 499?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very
foreground of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so.

Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?

Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when
that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?

Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the
stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee
Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a
movement, saw a man going away from him.

Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?

Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going
around, he saw a movement.

Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go
into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No.
23.

But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until
the other day.

Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom.
Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.

Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for
identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the
camera must be facing northeast.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?

Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in
which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey
Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with
Officer Baker.

Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker.

When did you find out what his name was?

Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was
down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.

Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th?

Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other
names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third
floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.

Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on
that floor.

Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the
east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.

Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?

Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor.
As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went
from the stairs over to the east elevator.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I
noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come
on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and
got on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

All right.

Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little
penthouse on to the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There
is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting
your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold.
We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below.
There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up
and down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the
roof?

Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell
you why he wanted to go on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad
or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can
remember? About where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we
reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the
railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of
the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at
the runways and the big sign on the roof.

He saw nothing.

He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I
think"--let's back up.

I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor,
"Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the
building.

I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that
effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said,
yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't
remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular
incident you have related about the running into the building and up
the stairs with this officer, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to
reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you
to do all this, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer
Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon
me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and
come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that
correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and
Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to
here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer
Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the
elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling
twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to
the second floor. Do you remember that?

Mr. TRULY. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?

Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.

Mr. BELIN. We trotted.

Did we get out of breath, do you remember?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that
day with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I
think we did it twice, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I
don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes.
Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in
the morning.

Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more
or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November
22d?

Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.

We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to
start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so
fast at first.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?

Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering
people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a
little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March
20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March
20th was a minimum or a maximum time?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the
fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west
elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the
seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while
operating the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just
couldn't see it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I
passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.

I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up
there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator
next? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you
thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth
floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock
off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator
at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs.
And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really
heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed
stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting
some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone
back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then,
is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?

Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then
went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?

Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor,
Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh
floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't
take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped.
He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from
there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth
floor.

I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first
floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the
time we got down that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to
go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down
again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is
hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or
what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see
anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There
was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes
at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west
corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over
there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other
employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was
not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other
warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen
him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and
he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here
missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had
another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there
or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said,
"Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse,
and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and
address at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just
have an address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas
address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown
on this application, Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other
employees who might have been missing?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was
missing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?

Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing
a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over
here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave
him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell
Captain Fritz."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was
talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some
nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we
will go upstairs".

So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to
the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor.
And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin
stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted
to tell him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over
about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that
effect.

And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and
telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr.
Truly. We will take care of it."

And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.

There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me
who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird,
or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know
anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.

I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something
out."

So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over
to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth
floor?

Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over
there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either
the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I
went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot
remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I
didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things.

Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some
bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going
to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490,
and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures
were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?

The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when
all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken,
no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you
not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?

Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been
there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years.
They were there at the time of November 22.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you
state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the
bins are located?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?

Mr. TRULY. You cannot.

Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the
southwest corner.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth
floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if
you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new
plywood floor around November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. This is it----

Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?

Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at
one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate----

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that
they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?

Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them
particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that
floor in several days.

Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?

Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows
on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of
cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner
of the building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that
were in the southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons
that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in
putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or
less at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which
is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the
sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for
identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did
those books go all the way to the corner or not?

Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in
height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the
building.

Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go
to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out
of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them
in front of the east window.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually
kept on?

Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the
sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?

Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from
the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark
with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have
been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you
have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the
plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time
for any purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or
large size?

Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that
floor.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later
on?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some
boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on
two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the
Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on
Commission Exhibit 483?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for
identification.)

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in
that southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet
or so away.

Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you
designate it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.

Representative FORD. He was an order filler?

Mr. TRULY. Order filler.

Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled
by each order filler every day?

Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check
on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give
me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in
succession for a whole week.

Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November
22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.

Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?

Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st
that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not
tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.

Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make
his initial or mark on it?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is
layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under
"C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends
it on for packing.

Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that
was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified
as to the individual.

Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day
they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are
filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those
wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of
the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.

Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way
to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of
November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he
was taken to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders
that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were
dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that
he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on
the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not
tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.

Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for
the 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?

Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run
from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we
would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in
order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would
be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we
found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because
we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st,
he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning
of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or
the 22d.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was
there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that
had two or three orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?

Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the
stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many
orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?

Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever
belonged to any particular employee of yours?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him
about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is
the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you
referring to?

Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard
with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found
Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them
off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while
they will have 15 or 10 or something.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually
filled that were found on the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that
were on there?

Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the
clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't
recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too
much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up
there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone
from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I
have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know,
about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying
to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI
or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?

Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything
along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an
order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to
an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but
you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d,
would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any
way show when it was filled?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker
checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it
over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it.
When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the
packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as
of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies,
and then charged to the customer.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers
get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various
employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of
November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days
before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and
then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking
on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number
for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So
we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making
these errors.

Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being
made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November
22d?

Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.

(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this
individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or
several weeks?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now,
we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and
processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days
there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them.
We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a
reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we
get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the
orders.

Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the
order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted
a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do
not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did
not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those
orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we
are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have
lost it, the boys have lost it.

(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?

Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do
not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the
orders and just forgetting about that part of it.

Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard
to Bill Shelley?

Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.

Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the
clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?

Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit
No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C"
where you think the clipboard was found.

I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that
Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was
discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture,
on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the
end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr.
Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number
35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was
discovered.

Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?

Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.

Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.

Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the
most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of
Kaiser who found the clipboard.

Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who
knows approximately when the clipboard was found?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute.
According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December
2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which
he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with
orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission
documents. It is Document 7, page 381.

But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser,
which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or
whenever we get to him.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.

I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for
identification.)

I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the
second to the third floor, or can't you tell?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps
before you came down to get Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second
floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if
you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to
walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you
do?

Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the
lunchroom that they can come through.

Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is
that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on
the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom,
would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor
other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally
operate it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have
an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is
Rolling a company or what is it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it
was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for
reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth.
They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you
turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood
they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and
sentences and things they can put together.

Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?

Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They
have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of
the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the
floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to
stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in
their reading.

Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?

Mr. TRULY. They are very light.

Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10
Rolling Readers weigh?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten
pounds.

Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the
Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506
inclusive.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through
506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing
the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the
last time I saw him until November 16th."

Did I hear you say that?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on
October 16th, the morning he came to work.

Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him
until November 16th.

Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant
October 16th.

The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?

Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel
for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after
the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald
for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am
not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in
the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I
believe--November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have
gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall
rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not
been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would
not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic
thing for me to think about.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have
any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as
FBI, regarding him?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia
and return from Russia?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently
was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I
suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here
and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the
service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone
on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a
thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack
Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years.
Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State
Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders
for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order
basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent
and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the
time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few
times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong,
and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not
anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not
be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39
years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He
gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any
trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his
emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of
average intelligence.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the
west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first
floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh
floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth
floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down
and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was
not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it
could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have
heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor
elevator, on the east side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when
you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor,
you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the
fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only
intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or
not an elevator was there?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east
elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you
were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on
the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the
office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse
and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or
five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our
warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

Representative FORD. On November 22d.

Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth
floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He
hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight.
But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might
be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the
employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that
Oswald was not among them?

Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an
answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor,
I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That
might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking
over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could
think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the
second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed
from the time of his employment that might have made you think then
that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound
of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not
believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots
came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and
the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from
there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just
the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall
whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You did not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't
know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told
the police?

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15
minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far
off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was
very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming
down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department.
Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I
did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz,
did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and
where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said
5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off
the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe
him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the
reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody
as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be
blonde.

Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room,
did any words pass between you?

Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.

Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No drink?

Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been
running or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any
direction?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the
lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around
towards his middle, almost touching.

Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of
November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going
to take.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the
assassination that he would take that route.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your
employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School
Depository?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other
member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this
affair?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make
me feel that they might be connected with it.

Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or
unidentified characters during his employment with you?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the
building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was
free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask
permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a
pushbutton type.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that
telephone?

Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now
whether he had ever used it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any
bundle?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take
a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with
Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from
that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along
the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across
there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated
putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we
took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker
encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?

Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I
would say.

Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a
minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as
near as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just
knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the
most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the
stairs?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.

Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald
took?

Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he
could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would
have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east
wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the
sixth floor stairs.

Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time
to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not,
because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor,
they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we
ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to
have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination.
He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we
did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else
go up to that floor and leave it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then
sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand
through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?

Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.

Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a
little difficult?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted
him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his
hand all through there and press one.

Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate
slatted--slats about this far apart.

Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you,
when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no
cordon at that time thrown around the building?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer
having been at the doorway at that point?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down
west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came
from there because of the echo or what.

Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one
of the back doors?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was
walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second
floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out
through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had
everything stopped.

Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before
you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have
been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt
their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression
goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie
Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the
work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal
amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have
picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.

We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)



_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE
BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD

The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin,
assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray,
observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.


TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help
you God?

Mr. BAKER. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief
statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our
meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker,
Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer
Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination.

Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth
floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the
assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the
Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the
inquiry we are making today and we will make of you.

Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for
the Commission?

Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q.
Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was
called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BAKER. I think I got married.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have
a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you
are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the
meeting from this time on.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the
way of vocation?

Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin
Co.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford?

Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months
and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance
Vought at that time, aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir?

Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would
call it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand?

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would
stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went
with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff
there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little
bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the
delivering at that time.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. With the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police
department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out
there.

Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately?

Mr. BAKER. Four months.

Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy,
did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a
patrolman or what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23
months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.

Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where
two men would be----

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the
last 7 or 8 years?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in
police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?

Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I
worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too?

Mr. BAKER. Very few.

Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is?

Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of
one-man squads now.

Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures?

Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men.

Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now?

Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and
the outlying squads are one man.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?

Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went
out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right
beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions?

Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day,
somewhere around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to
ride by the side of the President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This
is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry?

Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.

Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant
instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the
President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned
there and we were moved by request.

Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean?

Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have
escorted them.

Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to
ride after this assignment was changed?

Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I
believe he called it the press, behind the car.

Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at
the airport or was it before?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you
were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or
what?

Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the
motorcade?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown
Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the
motorcade got to Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. You say how fast?

Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it
going down Main Street at anytime?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it
went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.

Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about
somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again.

Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a
good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a
car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7
feet right behind the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or
what?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.

Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean?

Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President?

Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there.

Mr. DULLES. Behind that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then?

Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was
right at the side of that last one.

Representative BOGGS. The last press car?

Mr. DULLES. The last press car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at
this stage?

Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half
block.

Mr. DULLES. A half block?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it
was turning the corner at Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston
Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already
turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the
expressway, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at
from 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?

Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we
were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there,
which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a
strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.

Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as
you turned the corner, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we
were just creeping along real slowly.

Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you
turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?

Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because
you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.

Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you?

Mr. BAKER. Due north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?

Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me
some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that
I heard these shots come out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you
did?

Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was,
I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed
to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight
up----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will
try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were
coming down Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a
minute. If we could----

Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the
chart there.

Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner
that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and
all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I
got somewhere about right here----

Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday,
you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your
motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing
that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance
which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as
extended?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.

Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle
was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about
where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north
curbline of Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the
north curbline of Main on Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely.

Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard
this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was
something else?

Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had
just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for
about a week.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?

Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise,
what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of
looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either
right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston
and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building
or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you
heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to
fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and
start flying around.

Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons
came from?

Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the
building right on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going
up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on
because I couldn't see around this bend.

Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you
heard any more shots?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I
heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of
these shots?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they
were pretty well even to me.

Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even.

Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the
last shot that you did up to the time or saw----

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was
high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around
there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings
either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows?

Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BAKER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the
corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point
where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday
afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first
shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced
off to how much?

Mr. BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you
could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.

With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle
approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.

Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10
feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and
Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the
dot represents that signal light, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you
thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance
from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was
10 feet, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit
put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.

Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here?

Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the
motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that
stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far
it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the
School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March
20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed,
is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your
motorcycle was parked to the doorway?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet.

Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to
the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything
that was going on in the area?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have
marked with "B."

Mr. BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway
and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass.

Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass?

Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and
this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and
there is a triple overpass.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my
motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there
were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there,
and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing
their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there
was a man ran out into the crowd and back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else?

Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people
were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that
man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the
area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land
lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the
end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.

Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here.

Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would
be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the
freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.

Mr. DULLES. As far as that?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that
will better describe it.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to
the building?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after surveying the situation?

Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this
building here.

Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what?

Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Go on.

Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these
people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to
the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.

Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?

Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in
front of the School Building?

Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600
people in this area here.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know,
every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that
little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the
building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is
all a parkway.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.

Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the
Building?

Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like
there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you
have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I
asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and
this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I
am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we
immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into
the swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump
into the back of Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging
door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good
trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I
would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered
it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear,
back there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?

Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."

Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your
recollection?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which
the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this
elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And we went up them.

Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at
that time?

Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I
thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something
there, you know, to indicate that.

Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right
away?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead
of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms,
and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened
to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I
saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from
me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there----

Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to
me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another
door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there
and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I
could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in
the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He
turned and walked right straight back to me.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the
second door, right at the edge of the second door.

Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497
which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book
Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with
arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow
approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to
"Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing.

Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction
was he walking?

Mr. BAKER. He was walking east.

Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw
him?

Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him,
really saw him?

Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him.

Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me.

Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the
officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be
Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is
quite important.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more
question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is
that correct, and then walked back toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands?

Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your
hands?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying?

Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out.

Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out?

Mr. BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would
approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this
man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.

Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him.

Representative BOGGS. You have that already.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.

Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir.
If I can go off the record.

Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was
standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then
in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he
saw.

Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when
you first caught a glimpse of this man?

Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner
right here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on
Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as
what number on Exhibit 497?

Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23.

Mr. BELIN. At 23.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to
go?

Mr. BELIN. Surely.

Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't.

Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?

Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of
everybody because I had my pistol out.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I
ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably?

Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not.

Representative BOGGS. He came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and
walked back to me.

Representative BOGGS. Right close to you?

Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in
this doorway.

Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to
my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this
man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and
went on out up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway?

Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when
you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of
him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office
later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then
Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and
made this affidavit.

Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what
he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be
hurrying, anything of that kind?

Mr. BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was
running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN. What door number on that?

Mr. BAKER. This would be 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20
feet away from me.

Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he
appear to have been running or what?

Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he
didn't change his expression one bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face.

Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever
part of the body it was?

Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any
expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he
says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I
halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

Representative BOGGS. That question about time I would like to
establish.

How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the
shots until that episode occurred?

Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and----

Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds,
and----

Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last
shot?

Mr. BAKER. From the last shot.

Mr. BELIN. The first shot.

Mr. DULLES. The first shot?

Mr. BAKER. The first shot.

We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything
that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure
that I, you know, it took me a little longer.

Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it
started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw
Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much?

Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we
did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second
time we hurried it up a little bit.

Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or
walk?

Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first
time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on
into the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or
trot or walk?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a
real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March
20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that
what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time
you took?

Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to
get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did
we slow down at all for that?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you
to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm
Street and the Parkway?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route
from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of
the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall.

Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go?

Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to
the west side of where the stairs was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the
northeast corner?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do
you remember who was with us when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was
John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. John Howlett.

Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any
particular place?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do
that, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some
cases of books on the left-hand side there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to
these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took?

Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18
seconds.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second time?

Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a
minute and 14 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when
it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr.
Dulles' questions.

Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you
ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the west.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up
the elevator shaft at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did.

Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator
shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. It is wood.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there,
you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they
were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you
could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it
was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from
three to four floors up.

Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was
there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if
there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear
there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was
covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.

Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time
and you did that with the stairs.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor
number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot
remember, I don't know.

Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because
it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the
elevator.

Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court
reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you
know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second
floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came
around the stairs coming up from the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up
to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had
already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up?

Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next
elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and
I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was
looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a
glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it
was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this
door opened I could see him walking on down.

Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?

Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not.
All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door
might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and
going through the door almost?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window
you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this
window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and
looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so
he was moving about as fast as I was.

Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through
and then saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something
like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take
this picture?

Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you
saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he
gone as far as the coke machine?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the
room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be
approximately 20 feet down there from me.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as
number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to
trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you
took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some
movement through that window or door?

Mr. BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second
floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught
this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the
point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You
put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your
route to the----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and
this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.

If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom
would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course,
that he--that you saw him follow?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the
right----

Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this
is----

Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here.

Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be
the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here
that you can get out and to the other part of the building.

Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any
person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that
point, is that correct?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs
you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the
second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway
appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21,
points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course,
would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the
building.

Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would
cross right there at the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the
lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom,
he would be approximately following the same course from the time
he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the
lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point
"B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse
of something, either through a door or through the window in the door
marked 23, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23,
if you would, sir.

Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway
and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately
where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on
Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-1" and at
that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24
in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the
lunchroom, right?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me.

Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from
point "B-1"?

Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there,
and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it,
with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come
back to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and
meeting him right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and
meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow
with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to
you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came
up to you?

Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it
seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of
white-looking shirt.

Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in
there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150,
would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he
came--I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt
was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide
office there.

Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository
Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you
know?

Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a
light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.

Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said.
I couldn't quite hear.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it
it was a light brown jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to
the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to
either one?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a
jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't
really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I
didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the
police station?

Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen
when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my
recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later----

Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the
building and on up what we are discussing now.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker----

Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as
to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day.
Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want
to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving
this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices
back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there
and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were
questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with
Mr. Truly, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly
identified this person as being an employee?

Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned
and went on up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period
of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head
of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the
time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third
floor?

Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like
that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left.

Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the
man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was
whenever I was facing him.

Mr. BELIN. You then went where?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the
stairways.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what
numbered floor it was--I will ask you this, did you take the stairway
all the way to the top?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up
either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator,
here it is."

Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight
of stairs would have been the east or the west?

Mr. BAKER. The west.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here
is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at
the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on
around.

Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors.
I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we
went up.

Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or
not you passed the elevator on the west side?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the
elevator on the west side might have been moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the
top floor.

Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then
what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.

Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?

Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up
there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot
off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like
this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would
have to tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a
picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that
photograph of the building is how high?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top
of it and tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the
School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating
before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are
they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof
side or to all sides of the roof?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind
this sign here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way
around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I
heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that
railroad track."

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.

Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?

Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there,
say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at
that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the
wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up,
and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are
pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one
you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard
this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your
motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.

Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were
people all over this railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over
the west?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and
then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would
have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the
back side.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign
on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and
some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at
me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us
what else you did?

Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I
came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody
hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on
that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I
seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place
to hold on.

Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up
the sign, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.

Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit
362.

All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building
right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't
anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting
there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been
roosting there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and
they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon
droppings?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over
here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.

Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top
floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the
building?

Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we
caught the same elevator back down.

Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?

Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor
on up.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator
that we took up.

Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring
to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or
the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?

Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from
the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.

Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top
floor down or from the next to the top floor down?

Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes
to the next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the
stairs down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you
take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the same one.

Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you
notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking
out forward.

Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs
going to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?

Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the
stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side
instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court
reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which
purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the
marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway
marked "Ladder to the roof."

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked
"Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor,
which you said was the east elevator----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west
elevator was on this top floor?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir?

Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did
you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on
that top floor or not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was
following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around
over the building.

Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other
elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and
I was still looking over the building.

Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was
on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.

Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor
he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this
freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of
it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped
for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the
roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody
being up there, and then we started on down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on
or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on
either the third or the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked
to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I
went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle
and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building
been sealed off or not?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.

Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from
coming in and out or what?

Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice
whether the west elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the
Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told
us about that you can think of right now?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it
take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the
time you left, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly
on the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof
more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?

Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have
stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.

Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?

Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't
find it and then we came on down.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?

Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions?

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw
Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you
in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man
that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas
School Book Depository Building on that day?

Mr. BAKER. He was the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can
remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same
clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police
station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have
the same thing on.

Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?

Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on.

Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away
from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that
you said for him to come toward you.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he turn around?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that
time, Officer Baker?

Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand?

Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol.

Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.

Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was
unusual?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and
I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards
me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there
and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then
he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up
there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got
there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said,
"Do you know this man? Does he work here?"

And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up
the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the
expression or nothing on him.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of
breath?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building,
other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through
the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the
elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another
one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first
floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the
exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top
being north.

You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is
shown there.

Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called
out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?

Mr. BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----

Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the
first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words
"Main Entrance."

Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here
in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here
swinging?

Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby.

Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors.

Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes.

Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little
old counter-type door that swings----

Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west
of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would
someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here.

Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far
from this door here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as
you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side
of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362
approximately where the word "T" is.

Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me
like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I
said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?"

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that
you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and
this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that,
from the southwest corner here through this swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here.

Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator.

Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there,
would you estimate?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first
pushed the button for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have
any questions?

Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at
that time, and the rest of the day----

Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you
have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or
idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that
were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some
theory they had about what might have happened?

Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my
chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas
Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several
times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees.

Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time
of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any
of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to
the investigation here?

Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers
who were around him.

Mr. DULLES. Around whom?

Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time.

Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory,
you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it
happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know,
in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say,
and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came
from.

The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some
of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their
helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from
behind.

Mr. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the
left-hand side?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin----

Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is.

Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front.

Mr. BELIN. Of what?

Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were
four, two on each right side behind.

Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?

Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the
President's car.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from,
and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came
from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned
back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the
blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.

Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did
he say?

Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside
of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the
right-hand side of his helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet?

Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also.

Mr. BELIN. On his uniform.

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say
ahead of the President?

Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side.

Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your
question?

Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the
laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the
time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the
laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance
to talk to any of them?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those.
At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to
the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at
the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a
medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at
the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept
the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after
they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say,
30 minutes or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your
questions?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or
about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had
kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and
behind.

Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?

Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city
hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that
day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.

Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say
that you remember?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the
two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then
at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this,
and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that
the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time,
after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car
stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN. The President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr.
Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said
it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a
moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else
about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?

Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know
where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill
and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly
where it came from.

Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then?

Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the
President, he said he would see him fall.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall
backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by
that?

Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I
assumed he went to the left of him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought
what happened?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly,
you know, just what their story was.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came
from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the
only one.

Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio
is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either
came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of
him. You know----

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the
chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there
any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way
indicated to you that the shots came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one
except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There
were two people sitting down on the first floor.

Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were
running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether
they were just trying to get out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. From inside the building?

Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside
and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to
my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in
and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever
I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming
in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also
around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door
deal.

Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the
elevator onto floors?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't
paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all
those floors.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the
elevator until he had got up on the stairs.

Senator COOPER. I am aware of that.

Mr. BAKER. I was still looking.

Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.

Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into
each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?

Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know,
and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the
best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I
could see anybody.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. When you looked?

Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up.

Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you
notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas
School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were
open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those
windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I
looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out
of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was
looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really
didn't see nothing in the windows.

Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of
his testimony.

Mr. DULLES. Go ahead.

Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw
some pigeons fly up.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw
the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?

Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone
just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very
far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet
there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked
up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I
sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off,
and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I
really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell
which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.

Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing
north in the street.

Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going?

Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know.

Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you
said?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly
startled?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons
you saw?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds,
you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might
have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over
the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was
said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started
parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple
underpass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your
attention other than----

Mr. BAKER. Nothing except----

Senator COOPER. Crowd?

Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple
underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there,
you know, going up.

Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School
Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and
Officer J. W. Williams was----

Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle
officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was
right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by
myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the
President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up
there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out
there at Parkland.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see
the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several
other officers?

Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down
there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run
out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that
and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping
out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into
the crowd at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by
the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the
motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting
just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer
hunting?

Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. BAKER. Bolt action.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you
did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo
officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle
because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that
instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one
you used?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have
belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of
the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with
foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them
sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer
rifles.

Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you
heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a
rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard
that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me
there was just a difference in them.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that
you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how
fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have
come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to
a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt
action in about the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire
shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your
experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as
quickly as those shots came?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time
from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?

Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of
those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be
over 3 seconds apart.

Mr. DULLES. Over what?

Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. From each shot?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3
seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very
helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)


TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and
he expressed his regret to you.

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.

As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this
morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself,
and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President,
and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else
you may know.

Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the
truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission,
please?

Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.

Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d?

Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born
out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through
high school?

Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to
Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children?

Mr. BELIN. Well, children.

Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a
grandchild.

Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild?

Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?

Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their
postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon
or so?

Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather
hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mrs. REID. Well----

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office.

Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?

Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there?

Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies,
goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but
the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the
one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second
floor also?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere
in that room?

Mrs. REID. Over here.

Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?

Mrs. REID. My desk----

Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.

Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it?

Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching
the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time
for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works
at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and
they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were
running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on
the steps.

Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working?

Mrs. REID. He works for the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered
across from our building.

Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street
running from Houston to Record Street?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of
Elm?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left
the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?

Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with
the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part
of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even,
you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit
497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the
west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit
there or did you instead go to the front?

Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go through the door marked 24?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you turned which way?

Mrs. REID. Turned this way.

Mr. BELIN. You turned to your left and went through the door which is
between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go
by your desk?

Mrs. REID. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there
until I get ready to go out and then pick it up.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit
497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you walk?

Mrs. REID. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the
closet.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be
located on the east side of the building?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the front. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I came and went out this door.

Mr. BELIN. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit
497 as room 200, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mrs. REID. I got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the
front of the building, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a freight or passenger?

Mrs. REID. It is a passenger.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high?

Mrs. REID. Fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Came down on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Then you came on the first floor.

Mrs. REID. Went out the front door of our building.

Mr. BELIN. Went out the front door.

Mrs. REID. I stood on the steps for several minutes.

Mrs. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. Shall I continue?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mrs. REID. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main
and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be
nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly
and Mr. Campbell.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?

Mrs. REID. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had
gotten nearer to the street than the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came
by?

Mrs. REID. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our
streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the
line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and
was standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces
south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository
Building that I am pointing to.

Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this,
well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the
building.

Mrs. REID. You have got me turned around.

Mr. BELIN. The parade was coming along Houston.

Mrs. REID. I was standing about along in here, in here.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot
marked "B" on Exhibit 361.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of
the School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am
referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east
of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm
goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see?

Mrs. REID. You mean when I was standing there?

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President
came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I
looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was
dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was
holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right
on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as
they were concerned.

I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more
about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about
that.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do after that?

Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?

Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness,
I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like
they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the
windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one
because I didn't know the rest of them so well.

Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know?

Mrs. REID. James Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. You recognized James Jarman?

Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the
business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at
all because I didn't know them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know,
I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know
exactly.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which floor it was.

Mrs. REID. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the
floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope
they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts
of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did
you--did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?

Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area
down this way," and that was the last I said to him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he
pointing?

Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the
parade was going, in the bottom of that direction.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what
people were doing?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people
beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my
goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more.
And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing
anything else?

Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing
anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you
run into the building?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on
Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did
you do?

Mrs. REID. I went into the office.

Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming
in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk
several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot,
but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay
any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything
of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm.
He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the
reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little
strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the
time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him
in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke
in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't
think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when
he was coming through the door?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first
saw him?

Mrs. REID. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?

Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29.

Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed
him or had this exchange?

Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were
when you thought you passed him.

Mrs. REID. Here.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put
for Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.

On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you
related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me
what happened?

Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in
front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.

Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.

Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time
that the last shot was fired, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your
conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the
building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?

Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.

Mrs. REID. Two minutes.

Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald
crossed?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.

Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop
it there, right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom----

Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction
were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which
direction were you going toward the left or right?

Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to
my left.

Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking?

Mrs. REID. He was going east.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the
door there?

Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced
up.

Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever--you said, I will put it this way, had you ever
seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the
time of getting his pay?

Mrs. REID. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in
to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there,
and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said,
"Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?"

And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he
is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never
remember seeing him other than to come in to get change.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have
occasion to come into that office space?

Mrs. REID. Occasionally they come up to get change.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from getting change or getting paid?

Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get
something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It
is some business for them.

Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating
his lunch but I didn't even know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know
his name until they told us who it was.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on
the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?

Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind
of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission
Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both
look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or
can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not
say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over
his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository
wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150
or do you know?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that
shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once
before but not since all this happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom
with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front
stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there
or would there be more than one?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in
this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or----

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we
have it on 496.

Mrs. REID. Does it matter?

Mr. BELIN. That is fine.

Mrs. REID. You said the front stairway, too?

Mr. BELIN. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am
going to put "R-1".

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the
lunchroom to the front stairway?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would there be another way to get there?

Mrs. REID. He can come through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You could come through the office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would any one way be faster than the other or not?

Mrs. REID. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically
the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway
there.

Mr. BELIN. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would
be approximately the same?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a
pathway through there without any obstructions for desks?

Mrs. REID. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway.

Mr. BELIN. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With an "R" and "X" to it?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?

Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did
not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did
after that----

Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?

Mrs. REID. No; he did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was
locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say
was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in
there, if you would, please?

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away,
was it locked so that you----

Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our
office into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door?

Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the
policeman into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.

Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key
in the lock?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came
back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the
conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked
"locked," was it locked at that time when you came in?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when I got to it, I will
say that.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it
before or don't you know?

Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the
conference room.

I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked.
The porter locks it in the evening.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the
inside of the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either way?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key?

Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where
I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all
have the keys.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door?

Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started
searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the
lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies'
lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand
in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it
back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have
gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one
there.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you
got back in the building that you opened the lounge?

Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not
watching the clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right.

Mrs. REID. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the
police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions.

Mr. BELIN. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would
have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any
way?

Mrs. REID. I could have heard him open the door.

Mr. BELIN. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the
period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear
anyone open the door to the conference room?

Mrs. REID. I do not recall any.

Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go
into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around
between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?

Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the
front door.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in
which the arrow number 29 is pointing?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway.

Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald
leave the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I haven't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of
the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran
into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was
carrying anything in either arm other than a coke?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?

Mrs. REID. It was full.

Mr. BELIN. It was full.

Was there anything else you noticed about him?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about the expression on his face?

Mrs. REID. No; just calm.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or
dirty?

Mrs. REID. Well, they were clean.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual.

Mr. BELIN. You say he mumbled something?

Mrs. REID. He did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?

Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was
just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement
of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't
interested.

Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast?

Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did
see him moving fast at any time.

Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry
like a watch or bracelet or ring or something?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee
Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what hand?

Mrs. REID. In his right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?

Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the
period he was employed?

Mrs. REID. My goodness.

Mr. DULLES. Roughly.

Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been----

Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times?

Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr.
Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but
he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate
lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.

Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone?

Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or
didn't you try that?

Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did.

Mr. DULLES. You never tried it.

Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would
never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can
recall, not any time.

Mr. DULLES. Who in the organization so far as you know would have
handled his paychecks?

Mrs. REID. Mr. Campbell.

Mr. DULLES. Campbell would have handled his paychecks.

Mrs. REID. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I
am sure he distributes it to his employees.

Mr. BELIN. Two questions, Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20,
which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a
maximum or minimum time?

Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2
minutes time----

Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times.

Mr. BELIN. Three times.

Mrs. REID. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. And we were both huffing and puffing?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been
any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might
relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you
of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked
to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I
heard the employees say.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been
friendly with at least one other employee?

Mrs. REID. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves?

Mrs. REID. You mean prior to this?

Mr. DULLES. Prior, during the period he was employed there?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. DULLES. At the Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. I never heard it.

Mr. DULLES. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office
employees?

Mrs. REID. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are
not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there
a long time.

Mr. DULLES. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom
on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, it is; every day.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual
practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you
and the others?

Mrs. REID. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not.

Mr. DULLES. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give
any--half the working days?

Mrs. REID. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing
him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat
there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered
what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation
every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that
interested him.

But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know
whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying.

Mr. DULLES. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee
of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. You mean by name before this happened?

Mr. DULLES. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one
of the employees of the school book?

Mrs. REID. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of
Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the
premises?

Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any
further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her
other than these pictures.

Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have
friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual
practice?

Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to
drop by to see you they never have objected to that.

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence
this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram
of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.

Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?

Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.

Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.

We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here,
Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.

I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness.

We will reconvene at 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY


The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony
of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene
Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid
were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building
at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney
assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer
McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre.

Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand?

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOONEY. I do, sir.

Senator COOPER. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this
inquiry.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?

Mr. MOONEY. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in that job?

Mr. MOONEY. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. MOONEY. Hopkins County, south of Brashear.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. MOONEY. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. MOONEY. I finished high school there.

Mr. BALL. And then where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, I finished making a crop--I was a farm boy. My father
passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my
father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only
child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at
Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about--at that time
was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked
for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of
Dallas.

And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the
U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the
first.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. MOONEY. From 1942--I went in December, I believe it was, 28th,
1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then, after that?

Mr. MOONEY. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the
services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to
Dallas.

After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business
course at Drawns Business College in Dallas.

I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers
Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher
in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I
worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co.

And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County
Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the
city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office?

Mr. MOONEY. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law,
Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job.
However, we do everything that comes down.

Mr. BALL. What do you call that writ?

Mr. MOONEY. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What was your job on that day?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers
did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas
Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were
waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk,
off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to
approach.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing there when the President went by?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I took my hat off.

Mr. BALL. That is on Main Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Right.

Mr. BALL. And that is----

Mr. MOONEY. 505 Main.

Mr. BALL. That is where the cavalcade turned north?

Mr. MOONEY. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't
it--south of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; it is a short block there.

Mr. BALL. After the President's car went by, what did you do?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, we were--we was more or less milling around. We just
kept standing there, more or less talking to one another.

I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many.

Mr. BALL. You say "we." Who was with you?

Mr. MOONEY. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an
officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was
standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there,
by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP
judge.

I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall
how many more. There was a number of officers there.

Mr. BALL. What happened, as you remember?

Mr. MOONEY. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring
out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing
pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.

Mr. BALL. You mean to the right?

Mr. MOONEY. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south.
And I turned my head to the right.

Mr. BALL. That would be looking towards Houston Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Looking towards the old court.

Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking
west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear
them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and
third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there
between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that
begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. And by
the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingram--he had a
heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. MOONEY. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this
lawn, across Elm Street there--I assume it is approximately the
location the President was hit.

Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a
bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various
things. I was running at full speed.

Mr. BALL. When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace
there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less
of a little park.

Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course,
there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at
this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped
into the railroad yards and began to look around there.

And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other
officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I
don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few
spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area
out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go over to the railroad yard?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they
came from that direction.

Mr. BALL. That would be north and west from where you were standing?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo
sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many seconds--of
course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took
us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We
were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas
Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. How did you get those orders?

Mr. MOONEY. They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when he gave you those orders?

Mr. MOONEY. They were relayed on to us. I assume Mr. Decker was up near
the intersection of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear it over a loudspeaker?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. It come by word, by another officer.

Mr. BALL. And you were with Walters at that time?

Mr. MOONEY. Right. And where Officer Walters went at that time, I don't
know. We split up. I didn't see him any more until later on, which I
will refer to later.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time
that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL. They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work
in the same department, and we run right over to the building then,
which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance--I
haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there.
When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone
fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs
& Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to
block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL. Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY. They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and
we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on
orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a
lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know
what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then
we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in
the corner."

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big
elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come
running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY. It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest
corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY. I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL. You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to
the staircase.

Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I
got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the
second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got
there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power
on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short
second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some
other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were
deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going
up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But,
anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL. You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL. Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just
stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the
top.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had
been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin
criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open
windows--some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And
then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go
up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster
and Vickery. They were up there--in this little old stairway there that
leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around
right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into
it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because
we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed
floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably
Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am
going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he
was coming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures.
He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of
Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth
floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and
I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the
way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute
I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself
sideways to get in there--that is when I saw the expended shells and
the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And,
also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made
the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't
know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the
rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.

So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted
to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the
window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down,
and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on
the ground.

Well, so I hollered, or signaled--I hollered, I more or less hollered.
I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they
was all looking that way, too--except the sheriff, they wasn't looking
up.

And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the
location spotted.

So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain
Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At
that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery
and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I
believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over.
Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume.

Mr. BALL. I show you three pictures, Officer; for your convenience I
will give you the pictures.

I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the
building as you saw it that afternoon?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day was this?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1
o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at your watch?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my
watch at the time to see what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Were you the only officer in that corner?

Mr. MOONEY. At that very moment I was.

Mr. BALL. You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out
for me what boxes you squeezed through?

Mr. MOONEY. If I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle
right here--right through here. There could be a space. There is a
space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into
the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the
shells.

Mr. BALL. All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space?

Mr. MOONEY. I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that
shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that
time.

Mr. BALL. That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an
arrow shown on Exhibit 508.

Now, I will show you 509.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for
identification.)

Is that the way the boxes looked?

Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off
just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. Now, does that look like----

Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are they arranged as they were when you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY. I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box
tilted off.

Mr. BALL. What were the boxes--did they have a label on them, two of
the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY. These do. I didn't notice the label at that time.

Mr. BALL. That is a picture of the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the
top box was tilted?

Mr. MOONEY. The end of it was laying this way.

Mr. BALL. You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease?

Mr. MOONEY. This crease was right in this area of this box.

Mr. BALL. You mean over on the edge?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my
finger.

Mr. BALL. Did it go into the box?

Mr. MOONEY. Very slight crease, very slight.

Mr. BALL. Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on
509?

Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did
see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the
right. It looked like he was facing----

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you found it?

Mr. MOONEY. It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes.
This here is kind of blurred.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the empty shells you found?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are they shown there?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?

Mr. MOONEY. All right.

Mr. BALL. Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the
way they were when you saw them, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the
first shot.

Mr. BALL. You cannot speculate about that?

Mr. MOONEY. You cannot speculate about that.

Mr. BALL. Those were empty shells?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were turned over to Captain Fritz?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as
far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick
them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell
what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them.
They were brass cartridges, brass shells.

Mr. BALL. Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as
you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to
the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away,
and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular
area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are
further apart than they actually was.

Mr. BALL. Which ones?

Mr. MOONEY. This one and this one.

Mr. BALL. Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY. The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And
this one and this one, they were further away from this one.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. MOONEY. But as to being positive of the exact distance----

Mr. BALL. You think that the cartridges are in the same position as
when you saw them in this picture 510?

Mr. MOONEY. As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

Mr. BALL. Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as
"A", "B", and "C."

Now, I didn't quite understand--did you say it was your memory that "A"
and "B" were not that close together?

Mr. MOONEY. Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to
have been over this way a little further.

Mr. BALL. You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?"

Mr. MOONEY. Closer to the "C"; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have
marked as 511.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this appear to be--first of all, does that appear----

Mr. MOONEY. There are two cartridges.

Where is the third one?

Mr. BALL. The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from
another angle.

Mr. MOONEY. This looks more like it than this angle here.

Mr. BALL. You can see it is a different angle.

Mr. MOONEY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this same picture--511, you see a box in the window.
Does that seem to be about the angle----

Mr. MOONEY. Yes; that box was tilted.

Mr. BALL. That was tilted in that way?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509----

Mr. MOONEY. The box should have been actually tilted.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box
as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it?

Mr. MOONEY. If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen
off--looked like he might have knocked it off.

Mr. BALL. Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us
what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the box that had the crease on it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, the crease was--started from the edge, and came across?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; just a slight crease.

Mr. BALL. I have another picture. This is 512.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that
show the cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, compare that with 510.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way it looked?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is.

Mr. BALL. Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left
side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side.

Mr. MOONEY. Well, they were further over to the left of the window than
over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture.

Mr. BALL. In 509?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference
to----

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here,
and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes.

Mr. BALL. You could stand on the right of the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this
ledge.

Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Was the window open when you got there?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked
out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. I don't believe I could, without disturbing them. Possibly
I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Exhibit 513.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is another view of that window.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it from that angle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. You don't think you have ever seen it----

Mr. MOONEY. From that angle.

Mr. BALL. Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?

Mr. MOONEY. If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been
laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.

Mr. BALL. Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the
chicken bone was lying.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top
of either one of those two?

Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a
little small paper poke.

Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack?

Mr. MOONEY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying
about a foot away from it.

Mr. BALL. On the same carton?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what
was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I
didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw,
and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the
box that had the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like
that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe
take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it
there.

Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with
the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the
chicken leg and paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY. Sir?

Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes,
sir.

Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I
understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it,
but it didn't stand more than that high.

Mr. BALL. About 12 inches?

Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.

Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?

Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery
store uses for their produce and what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any soda pop?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Any other chicken bones?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; except in the picture.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see it?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the
picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That
is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I showed you that.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you did not see that two-wheel truck?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck
or a Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe
it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was. But I didn't check it.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. MOONEY. Sir?

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found
the location of the three cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes
longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there,
Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of
course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of
officers up there. The floor was covered with officers, And we were
searching, trying to find the weapon at that time.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when it was found?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between
them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking
everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer
Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun."

Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?

Mr. MOONEY. I stepped over there.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. MOONEY. I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying
in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see
it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright
position. The scope was up.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, I will show you a picture, 514.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for
identification.)

Senator COOPER. May I ask--did you change the position of the shells
which you have identified?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them.

Senator COOPER. Or the bag, or chicken leg?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Until--before the chief came?

Mr. MOONEY. Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief.

Senator COOPER. Was there any odor in the area when you first got there?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't particularly notice any. Now, there could have
been a slight powder odor there.

(At this point, Mr. Warren entered the hearing room.)

Senator COOPER. Did you smell any powder?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Of course it was musty odor,
with all those cartons and books there.

Mr. BALL. Do you see the picture which is 514? Does it look like
anything like that?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around
it than that. In other words, the way it looked to me, when I walked
over there--of course these may have been disturbed at a later date.

Mr. BALL. It looks like there are more cartons?

Mr. MOONEY. No; there is less cartons around it right now. Of course
that is looking straight down. Now, there are some more boxes here.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which we will mark as 515.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 515 for
identification.)

Mr. MOONEY. But that is in the position the gun was laying.

Mr. BALL. That is about the position of the gun?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. Can you
orient yourself from that picture?

Mr. MOONEY. Let's see. Here is the staircase right in here. If I
remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. I
don't remember which.

Mr. BALL. Does that show you about the number of cartons around?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. Because I
had to stand up back here, before I could see over off in there.

Mr. BALL. And when you did look down there between the cartons, was the
gun----

Mr. MOONEY. It was sitting in that position. The scope was up.

Mr. BALL. As shown in 514?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is the way it was laying, in that position.

Senator COOPER. It was lying on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. With the scope on the upper side?

Mr. MOONEY. The scope in upright position. The stock was back to the
east. In other words, the gun was pointed west.

Mr. BALL. Did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were
there?

Mr. MOONEY. There was a number of photographers up there shooting
pictures. Who they were or who they represented--I assume it was the
press.

Mr. BALL. How long were they there?

Mr. MOONEY. They were there when all these officers and everybody was
up there.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. How far was it from the place where the gun was found,
from where you first saw the rifle, to the window?

Mr. MOONEY. You mean how far was it from the gun to the window?

Senator COOPER. Yes; where you saw the shells.

Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor,
thereabouts. In other words, if you take the location from where the
shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. And this was in
the far northwest corner. Just right there at the staircase.

And the distance across there, I just don't know how far it is, but it
is quite a large warehouse floor.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. I would like to offer the
exhibits up to 515, inclusive. May this witness be excused?

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator Cooper?

Senator COOPER. As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best
judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is----

Senator COOPER. The chicken and the paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off,
laying partially over on the legs.

Senator COOPER. That was the box which you said you observed a crease
in?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight.

Senator COOPER. Is that the box which was the top box?

Mr. MOONEY. The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was
the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked
off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by
hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my
knowledge.

Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in
evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.)

Mr. MOONEY. In other words, if you just run against it, you would have
knocked it off.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very
helpful.

Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Deputy Sheriff Boone.


TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BOONE

The CHAIRMAN. Sit right down, Mr. Boone.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony
of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M.
N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the
Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination.
Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth
floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the
assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at
the Texas theatre.

Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. BOONE. I do.

Senator COOPER. You understand the purpose of this inquiry?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You have come here voluntarily to testify?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you have a counsel with you?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire one?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. BOONE. I am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a deputy sheriff?

Mr. BOONE. A year and a half.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BOONE. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. BOONE. High school.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. BOONE. I was working with the Dallas Times Herald Newspaper there,
in the advertising department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I worked there part time when I was going to school,
up until the time I quit, 8 years.

Mr. BALL. Is that the time you went with the sheriff's office?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BOONE. Twenty-six.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, where were you working?

Mr. BOONE. I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade.

Mr. BALL. Where did you view the parade?

Mr. BOONE. Right in front of the sheriff's office.

Mr. BALL. Had you been assigned a place, a job that day?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Near Houston?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And who were you with?

Mr. BOONE. Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the
office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what-have-you.
Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer
Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember.

Mr. BALL. What happened there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the
shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the
north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot.
And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second
shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the
street there.

Mr. BALL. You raced across what street?

Mr. BOONE. Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. You turned to your right and went west?

Mr. BOONE. Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west
across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind
the large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed
to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards,
from over the triple underpass.

So there was some city officer, I don't know who he was, motorcycle
officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment
to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards
there. He went over the wall first, and I was right behind him, going
into the freight yards. We searched out the freight yards. We were
unable to find anything.

Mr. BALL. A good many officers over there searching?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; there were. Most all of the officers--well, all of the
officers in front of the sheriff's office there. There were others that
I don't recall. There were other officers in the area. Also, they all
ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down
into the freight yards.

Mr. BALL. Any railroad employees around there?

Mr. BOONE. There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight
yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there.

Mr. BALL. And didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. A man named Bowers?

Mr. BOONE. I don't know what his name was. He was up in the tower and
I hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in
the freight yards, or heard any shots. And he said he didn't hear any
shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard.

Mr. BALL. That was a railroad tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book
depository. Almost directly west of the building.

Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I finally went around and was talking to some of the
spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of
Betzer. He had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there
were photographs--he thought he might have had a portion of the
building.

Later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the
building, from that southeast corner over there. And he had some
photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the
building.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up into the building then?

Mr. BOONE. I took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him
in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID
Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time
to await somebody to take a statement from him.

Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I
don't know whether--I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or
not at that time--they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights.
They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a
bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and
they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building.

At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said
five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was
out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being
searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney
found the shells.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells?

Mr. BOONE. Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found
on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I
guess, and started working our way across the building to the west
wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and
what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I
got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight
space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them.

When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the
floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two
rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I
hollered that the rifle was here.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. BOONE. Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told
them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take
prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time
Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name
was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was
photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by
the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?

Mr. BOONE. There was an Officer Weitzman, I believe. He is a deputy
constable.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the
building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here,
making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other
two sides. And from that, it was almost directly in front or about 3
feet south, I guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up
the stairwell.

Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the----

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes
that came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of
boxes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?

Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and
see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down
underneath the boxes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area
where you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see
where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the
stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. This is that retaining wall here that I was talking about
here. Now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost
directly. This is the west end of the building here, this being the
north side, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BOONE. Yes. And it is about 3 feet from the edge--you cannot see
the edge of it because it is behind this.

Mr. BALL. The edge of what?

Mr. BOONE. The stairwell wall here. It is about 3 feet from where this
partition ends over to--back behind these cases of books here.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the
boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is 514?

Mr. BOONE. What do you mean--the exact space? It was in this space
right in here, like this.

Mr. BALL. The arrow marks the space.

Mr. BOONE. I had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over
here, and that is when I saw it, looking down across this way.

Mr. BALL. You came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this
picture 514?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And when you looked in the direction that would be easterly,
that is when you saw the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Northeasterly.

Mr. BALL. Here is another picture which we will mark as 516.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 516 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between
boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you an exhibit marked 516. Does that show--what
corner of the building does that show? Or do you recognize it?

Mr. BOONE. It appears to be the same general location here.

Mr. BALL. Show----

Mr. BOONE. This is the stairwell back here in the corner. If I am not
mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here.

Mr. BALL. That would be the right of the picture?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle.

Mr. BOONE. Right down in this general direction.

Mr. BALL. Draw another arrow. I show you Exhibit 483, a diagram of
the sixth floor. Now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us
approximately where the rifle was found?

Mr. BOONE. Roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow No. 35.

Mr. BALL. The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has
been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit
517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the
position of the camera at the time the picture was taken.

In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a
photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you
first saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind
Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it, too. I don't know
his name.

Mr. BALL. What time was it?

Mr. BOONE. 1:22 p.m., in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. 1:22?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. I show you a rifle which is Commission Exhibit 139. Can you
tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor
that day?

Mr. BOONE. It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being
positive.

Mr. BALL. You never handled it?

Mr. BOONE. I did not touch the weapon at all.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with
this witness, which is 515 to 516 and 517, into evidence.

Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits be admitted in evidence.

(The documents referred to marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 515, 516,
and 517 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was
because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct. The city officers had personnel in charge
up there. Captain Fritz, I believe, was in charge, senior officer on
the floor.

He was called to the location as soon as I found the rifle. He came
over, and it was photographed then.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered
had a telescopic sight?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did.

Senator COOPER. Did it have a sling?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. Because Captain Fritz picked it up by the sling
when he removed it from its resting place.

Senator COOPER. Looking at Exhibit 483, which represents the floor plan
of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found
the rifle. Is that near the stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast
corner.

Senator COOPER. Also near the elevators?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, Senator Cooper, I think you said northeast.

Mr. BOONE. Northwest--I beg your pardon.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember whether Officer Mooney came up after
you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. I don't recall. There were officers, both city and county
officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. Now,
whether he was among the crowd there, I do not know.

Senator COOPER. When you climbed over the retaining wall at the
railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard
was at that time? Were there railroad cars in the area?

Mr. BOONE. There were four railroad cars down approximately 100 yards
from the retaining wall, right over the Elm Street tunnel, or portion
of the triple underpass. Then there were some people down to the south
of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing
the parade--I don't know. The city officer went back south, as I
recall, and I went off to the north, northwest.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Sheriff, thank you very much.

Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this
rifle as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought
it was 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at
it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is
what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is,
the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.

We were just discussing it back and forth. And he said it looks like a
7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Sheriff. You have been very helpful.

Mr. BALL. Call Officer McDonald.


TESTIMONY OF M. N. McDONALD

Senator COOPER. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you swear that
the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McDONALD. I do.

Senator COOPER. You understand that the purpose of this inquiry is to
inquire into the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the
late President Kennedy?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Senator COOPER. Today's hearings are to hear testimony of various
witnesses, including yourself, who were in the vicinity of the Texas
School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and
because it is reported you apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas
theatre.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you testify here voluntarily?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McDonald, where do you live?

Mr. McDONALD. 530 South Port Drive.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. McDONALD. Camden, Ark.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Arkansas?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I finished through the 11th grade, took an
equivalent for a high school diploma, and I attended 1 year at Arkansas
State Teachers College in Conway.

Mr. BALL. What year was that?

Mr. McDONALD. 1948 and 1949.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, worked in a printing firm for awhile, after getting
out of college a year. Then I joined the Air Force. But in a break
between high school and college, I entered the Navy, in January 1946. I
served 22 months in the Navy, active duty.

Mr. BALL. Then you say in the 1950's you joined the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; December 29, 1950.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. Four years.

Mr. BALL. What work did you do in the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. I was a supply sergeant.

Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I became a policeman in the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. That was in 1956?

Mr. McDONALD. March 3, 1955.

Mr. BALL. And you have been a police officer ever since?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on March--November 22, 1963?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was your job that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Radio patrol.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. McDONALD. From 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Did you ride alone or have a partner?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had a partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. McDONALD. T. R. Gregory.

Mr. BALL. Were you cruising about 12:30 that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In what area?

Mr. McDONALD. On the Westmoreland Avenue and Falls Drive intersection.

Mr. BALL. Was your area, an area close to downtown Dallas or outside?

Mr. McDONALD. Outside, approximately 8 miles.

Mr. BALL. Did you get an order over the radio about that time to move
your car?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the order?

Mr. McDONALD. Report to the vicinity of Elm and Houston Streets, code 3.

Mr. BALL. And did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he also a radio patrol officer?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. Did he cruise alone or with a partner?

Mr. McDONALD. He was cruising alone.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what his area--the area assigned to him on that
day?

Mr. McDONALD. The southern part of Oak Cliff, nearing the city limits.

Mr. BALL. Was that farther out from the center of town than you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; approximately 10 to 12 miles.

Mr. BALL. Did Tippit usually cruise alone, or did he ever have a
partner sometimes?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, working in the daylight hours, which we were
assigned that month, it is a custom to work alone--unless he had a
trainee, such as I. I don't believe he was a trainer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you had a trainee with you, and that is the
reason you were not alone?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear an order over the radio for cars in the outlying
district near the city limits, what they were to do?

Mr. McDONALD. They were to move in closer to the downtown area, but not
directly to the area.

Mr. BALL. You were ordered to move into the downtown area?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the cars that were cruising farther out were ordered to
move closer to the downtown area?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any other specific orders over the radio that
day--that morning, or about 12:30, 1 o'clock?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you received those orders?

Mr. McDONALD. I applied my red lights and sirens, and went code 32, Elm
and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. About what time did you get there?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 10 minutes later.

Mr. BALL. What time would that be?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 12:40.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park your car?

Mr. McDONALD. On the right curb, Elm Street, before you enter the
triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 35 minutes.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing there?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, after I left the car, my partner and I reported to
a supervisor, and he directed us to patrol the crowd and move the crowd
around Elm Street, and rope off the area.

Mr. BALL. Now, was your radio on?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. There were several police units around the
intersection, and all the radios were on. And after I had moved the
crowd around, went back to the entrance of the Texas School Book
Depository, I heard this over the police radio, of--the first thing I
heard was that President Kennedy had expired at Parkland Hospital.

And the next thing I heard was a voice over the radio that was not
familiar to police procedure. He was saying that an officer had been
shot, and that he was using car No. 10 radio. Of my own knowledge,
I knew that car was driven by Officer Tippit, and that that car was
assigned to his district.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you a location?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; 400 block of East 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I told my partner we were not doing much good here, to go
to Oak Cliff, and see if we could help out over there, try to apprehend
the person that shot Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go in Oak Cliff?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, we got in the car and went underneath the triple
underpass and got on the Stemmons Expressway, which leads into the R.
L. Thornton Expressway. I believe we took the Jefferson exit and drove
up to the 400 block of East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Patton is about a block to the north of Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. Patton runs across Jefferson. Tenth and Patton.

Mr. BALL. Patton runs north and south?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is a block north of Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go to the 400 block on Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. I was stopped by other officers there. They wanted to
search a house. So I relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors
search this house, in the 400 block of East Jefferson. Then I went
around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car.

Mr. BALL. And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain
place?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a
suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and
Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. You went down there?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an
alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked
the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance
to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the
library outside. They came out with their hands up.

The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell
the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger
person than what was broadcast on description on the radio.

Mr. BALL. You had heard a broadcast?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Of a description, of someone to look for?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight
about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing.

Mr. BALL. When did you hear that? About what time?

Mr. McDONALD. It came out on the radio as I was coming to Oak Cliff.
There was another general description given on the way to the Texas
School Book Depository at Elm and Houston Streets. But it was a vague
description.

Mr. BALL. The first description that you heard of a man to look for was
on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that description?

Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a
white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds.

Mr. BALL. And that was about 12:40 you got that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this later description you got was what point in your
travel to Oak Cliff?

Mr. McDONALD. This was approximately 1:20, or 1:17.

Mr. BALL. That was after you had heard that Tippit--that the officer
had been shot?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what was that description?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, it was 5 foot 10, white male, 27 years old, wearing
a white shirt.

Mr. BALL. Now, as you were cruising the alleys, you had gone into
the library basement, and gone to cruising the alleys, did you hear
something else over the radio that drew your attention to another
part----

Mr. McDONALD. Just to report to the public library.

Mr. BALL. After that. Did you receive a report?

Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run
into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad
car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car,
it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre,
231 West Jefferson.

So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven
blocks from the library, seven blocks west.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there with your partner?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had let my partner out on arrival; my first
arrival in the 400 block.

Mr. BALL. He was on foot?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I didn't see him any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You went down to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that is what address?

Mr. McDONALD. 231 West Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was
several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers
were already inside the theater.

So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I
parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers
standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were
three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into
the rear exit door over the alley.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. McDONALD. Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. And
as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian
clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as
he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats,
and not in the balcony. He was sitting at the rear of the theater alone.

Officer Walker and I went to the exit curtains that is to the left of
the movie screen. I looked into the audience. I saw the person that the
shoe store salesman had pointed out to us.

Mr. BALL. Were the lights on or off?

Mr. McDONALD. The lights were up, and the movie was playing at this
time.

Mr. BALL. And could you see to the rear of the theater?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see the man. Did the civilian point out to you the
man in one of the rear seats?

Mr. McDONALD. He didn't point out personally. He was pointing out the
suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just
right of the movie screen.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in
the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated
throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about
10 rows from the front.

I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men,
and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men,
I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a
weapon.

I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to
me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.

Mr. BALL. Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?

Mr. McDONALD. I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss
anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.

Mr. BALL. And you still kept your eye on the suspect?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my
shoulder at him.

Mr. BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you
came in?

Mr. McDONALD. The right center aisle. He was in the second seat.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed
or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right
center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a
normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him
and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a
woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect.

And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped
abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose
immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder
high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about
breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."

As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went
to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of
the nose.

Mr. BALL. Did he cock his fist?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; knocking my cap off.

Mr. BALL. Which fist did he hit you with?

Mr. McDONALD. His left fist.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction
was for me to go at him with this hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck
him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on
his hand over the pistol.

Mr. BALL. Did you feel the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the
pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. His right hand was on the pistol.

Mr. BALL. And which of your hands?

Mr. McDONALD. My left hand, at this point.

Mr. BALL. And had he withdrawn the pistol----

Mr. McDONALD. He was drawing it as I put my hand.

Mr. BALL. From his waist?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats.
While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun----

Mr. BALL. Your left hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the
action also.

Mr. BALL. Your right hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out,
"I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind
us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker
came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer
Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the
front.

By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my
right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.

Mr. BALL. Had you felt any movement of the hammer?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.

Mr. BALL. When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?

Mr. McDONALD. It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt
movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a
snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know any way it was pointed?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the
sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would
have to be the cylinder or the hammer.

Mr. BALL. Across your left palm?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. And my hand was directly over the pistol in
this manner. More or less the butt. But not on the butt.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you jerked the pistol free?

Mr. McDONALD. When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with
him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I
brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put
it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the
pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.

Mr. BALL. Grazed your left cheek?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Scratched--noticeable scratch?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; about a 4-inch scratch just above the eye to
just above the lip.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, the officers that had come to my aid started
handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater.

Mr. BALL. What did he say--anything?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police
brutality, for one thing.

Mr. BALL. What words did he use?

Mr. McDONALD. I couldn't recall the exact words. It was just mixed up
words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested.

Mr. BALL. What did he say about police brutality?

Mr. McDONALD. One thing, "Don't hit me any more." I remember that.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody hit him?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I guess they did.

Mr. BALL. Who hit him, do you know?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I don't, other than myself.

Mr. BALL. You know you hit him?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go with them outside?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I was looking for my hat and flashlight.

Mr. BALL. Did you go downtown with them?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later you went downtown?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you put a mark on the revolver?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six
rounds in the cylinder?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. McDONALD. I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an
indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not
that strong of an indentation.

Mr. BALL. We have here Exhibit 143 for identification. Do you know
whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you
arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; this is it. I found the mark here.

Mr. BALL. You found your mark?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What mark is it?

Mr. McDONALD. I marked the initial "M".

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. McDONALD. Right here, on this steel plate.

Mr. BALL. Of the butt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on
the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt.

Mr. BALL. How many cartridges were in the cylinder?

Mr. McDONALD. Six, fully loaded.

Mr. BALL. I will show you four that are marked as--we will give these
four an exhibit number. Do you know whether or not they were shells
similar to that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were .38 caliber. Now, I didn't mark all
of these shells, myself.

Mr. BALL. Did you mark any of them?

Mr. McDONALD. I recall marking one.

Mr. BALL. The four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will
mark collectively as Commission Exhibit 518.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 518 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as
Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on
one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145,
consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge
with a dent in it?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How can you tell this?

Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this--of the primer there--it is a
small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished.

Mr. BALL. And your mark is on one of these cartridges?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you an Exhibit 519.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 519 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that a picture of the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And can you mark on there the seat in which the man was
seated who was the suspect?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Put an arrow down to that seat. Did you see Oswald later that
evening?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you saw Oswald, was he bloody any?

Mr. McDONALD. Afterwards?

Mr. BALL. Well, when he was being taken from the theatre. Was he bloody?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I didn't see any blood.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McDONALD. Because whenever they took him, they took him directly
out.

Mr. BALL. And you never saw him again?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time?

Mr. McDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a
T-shirt and dark trousers.

Mr. BALL. A dark brown shirt, a T-shirt, and dark trousers?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission 150. Does that look anything like
the color of the shirt he was wearing?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to 519 in
evidence.

Senator COOPER. They will be admitted in evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 518 and 519 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's
person?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. It was under his right waist band, right side.

Mr. BALL. Was it under the shirt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt.

Mr. BALL. Underneath the shirt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, and say it was
underneath the brown shirt that he had on. Not underneath the T-shirt.

The CHAIRMAN. It was not in a holster?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; no holster at all.

Mr. BALL. Were--was there an FBI agent there?

Mr. McDONALD. I don't know, sir. I was told he was there, but I don't
know.

Mr. BALL. The only people that you saw were----

Mr. McDONALD. The ones I named there.

Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department men?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. Who was it that pointed out to you the suspect when you
entered the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. I learned his name later.

Senator COOPER. Did some person there point out to you, though, this
man sitting in the row whom you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was a shoestore salesman. His name was
Brewer. He was the one that met us at the rear exit door and said that
he saw this person run into the Texas Theatre.

Senator COOPER. Did you hear him say that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. And have you seen him since?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. But somebody has identified him to you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will examine him next week, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask--if the suspect was pointed out to you, why
was it you did not go directly to him, but you searched other persons?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, usually on information of that sort, you have to
weigh it a little bit to make sure you get the right person. He could
have been mistaken. If a suspect was in that theatre, I wanted to make
sure I got him, and not overlook him.

Senator COOPER. You said, though, that before you went into the
theatre, where the seats were located, that a man pointed out to you a
person who he claimed was the suspect.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he said that that was the man that had acted
suspiciously in running into the theatre.

Senator COOPER. That was the man that was identified to you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then, if he was the man identified to you, why did
you stop and search these two men before you got to the man you later
arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I wanted to make sure he was right.

Senator COOPER. Was it your purpose to search everybody in there?

Mr. McDONALD. It was my intention--everybody I came to.

Senator COOPER. Were these the first two that you did search?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were the closest ones to me.

Senator COOPER. They were sitting in front of the man you later
arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were sitting about 10 rows in front of him.

Senator COOPER. At the time you were searching them, you could see the
other man that you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What did he do?

Mr. McDONALD. Just sat in his seat, with his hands in his lap, watching
me.

Senator COOPER. Were there any other police officers in his vicinity?

Mr. McDONALD. There were police officers in the balcony, and police
officers in the aisle, or in the lobby, you might call it--not in the
theatre, except for the other three that I named.

Senator COOPER. You are the only one in the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was the other three officers that accompanied
me through the rear exit door. Officer Walker went through the curtains
with me, and Officers Hawkins and Hutson was on the stage with the man
that was identifying the suspect.

Senator COOPER. Then when you told the man you arrested to stand up did
he immediately pull his pistol out?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; he stood up and started raising his hands,
"Well, it is all over now." But in my opinion, it was an act of giving
up or surrendering. It was just natural that my hand went to his waist
for a weapon, which was my intent anyway, whether he raised his hands
or not. I didn't command him to raise his hands or anything. It was
just a reaction of his.

Senator COOPER. Did he hit you with the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he point it towards you?

Mr. McDONALD. I don't know what position the gun was pointed out,
whenever my hand was on it, because we were both grappling around
there. But, as I say, the top of my hand was over on top of the pistol.

Senator COOPER. To whom did you turn over the possession of the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Detective Bob Carroll. He had come into the aisle.
Whenever I hollered, "I got him" immediately I was swarmed by officers.

Senator COOPER. Did you mark the pistol at that time before you turned
it over?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I marked it at the police station.

Senator COOPER. But you recognized it then as the same pistol you had
identified today?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Officer, you were in uniform that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the blow he gave you on your nose leave any mark?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, for 2 days I had some swelling. It didn't break the
skin or anything. Some of the force was taken by my top. It hit the
bill of my cap and my nose.

The CHAIRMAN. And the scratch from the corner of your eye down to the
corner of your mouth came from the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. As I was taking the pistol away, clearing it
from his body. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. We are very glad you are able to be
with us today.

Mr. BALL. There is one thing.

I have marked an exhibit, 520.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 520 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. As he said he had not seen Oswald since, and I know this was
taken--but I would like to ask him one question with reference to 520
for identification, and we will later provide an identification, proper
identification for it.

Does that look like the man that you arrested in the Texas Theatre that
day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it look like--well, of course, he had a shirt over
that T-shirt.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, officer. We are glad you were able
to be with us.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



_Thursday, March 26, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM, WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS, MRS. JEANETTE
DAVIS, AND TED CALLAWAY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 26, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald
R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin,
assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray,
observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.


TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the session of the Commission is for the
purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of President Kennedy,
and it is our information that you have some evidence concerning it and
we want to ask you some questions concerning it. You are willing to
testify, are you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Do all I can.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you stand up and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Mr. Ball will ask you the questions.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, what is your address?

Mrs. MARKHAM. 328 East Ninth.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Where was I born? Dallas.

Mr. BALL. The Commission would like to know something of your past life
and experience, where you were born and your education so I will just
ask you a few questions like that.

Take it easy, this is just----

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am very shook up.

Mr. BALL. This is a very informal little conference here.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, do you want me to tell you about my life?

Mr. BALL. Yes. Just tell us briefly where you were born and where you
went to school and things of that kind.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was born in Dallas, Dallas County. My father was a
farmer. I was very small when my mother died, I was 6 years old; and my
brothers and I were separated which they were put in the State orphans
home, and I went to live with my aunt.

Mr. DULLES. Are your brothers older or younger?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one older than I. And I went to live with my aunt
and uncle in Grand Prairie. I went to Grand Prairie school.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I got married. I got married.

Mr. BALL. How long were you married?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Me----

Mr. BALL. I understand you are not married at the present time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I am not married. I would have been married 25 years
this past July.

Mr. BALL. Were you a housewife for a while while you were married?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was.

Mr. BALL. How many years?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me see, about 8 years.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any children?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. How many children did you have?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I have five children.

Mr. BALL. Do they live with you now or what?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one son who stays with me.

Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were
divorced, what kind of work have you done?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.

Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.

Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at
night.

Mr. BALL. Straight shift?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?

Mr. BALL. Morning.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?

Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you,
that day?

Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.

Mr. BALL. One o'clock?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a litt